PLUS The Beast In Me

27:30It was wild. But yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't do Race Across the World with Jay. Oh my God, can you imagine? Come on, I would love that. I mean, even his closest, even his nearest and dearest wouldn't do that. But also, they give you, now my understanding of this show, which I have only, I think, watched once, they give you a budget, right? Yeah. Basically the equivalent of the flight to the destination. Right, and of course, Boidy only flies business, so we'd get absolutely nowhere, right? So we'd move like one country and then we'd be fucked. And he wouldn't be able to use his private jet, so.

27:56Yeah, exactly. And then we'd end up in New York, we'd go to the Hilton in New York and they'd take one look and be like, oh, not you again. The Hilton in New York. Yeah. Isn't that where your New York hotel story was? It was a Hilton. It was near the airport, wasn't it? Near the airport. That one. There's a Boyd-shaped plaque somewhere. Boyd stayed here. Hello, I am Boyd Hilton of The Hiltons. Please let me into your Hilton. See, I'd enjoy that. Just you two going on holiday, in fact. Let's just change it. You two just going on a vacation. Just do James Armstrong's emails. I mean, that could be fascinating.

28:28Or all three of us going to Fiji. I'd be down for that too. First one to get heat stroke wins. We're doing a special live podcast from Fiji anyway, aren't we? Cannot wait. absolutely cannot wait now just to quickly touch upon the Daisy May and Charlie Cooper element of that do you know what Andrew I did actually talk about it so I mentioned it a few weeks back in the what I was watching section and I just I really enjoyed it it's delightful it's obviously a bit silly but just spending time with those two is always fantastic fun because it's the squabbling it's their obsession with ghosts it's like yeah just getting an idea of their dynamic in real life as opposed to watching it on this country which is fantastic and And inspired by seeing them on Nightwatch, I started re-watching This Country.

29:09And I can highly recommend, by the way. I thought you were going to say inspired by Nightwatch, you went to some haunted prisons or something like that. Yeah, that time I stayed in a haunted prison. No, but on this note, just to pick up on something I've talked about before as well. Another aborted travel story for you guys, where I don't reach my destination. Where were you trying to get to? I was trying to get to Leeds, right? Now, this is connected to the pod. I'm not just telling you about my life. I was trying to get to Leeds to hang out with your friend of mine, editor Darren, at Leeds University where he works and lectures.

29:39And he had asked me to do a talk, a career talk. I got to King's Cross. Oh, God. Talk about North or South Korea. Sorry. I, you derailed me. Sorry. No, no. You're getting a train. I was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. I was so excited to see Darren mostly. Yeah. And to give my thoughts on journalism. and yeah, all the trains bloody cancelled. So with my tail, my bushy tail between my legs, had to return home and just do it on Zoom. So once again, set off on an epic train journey. You never got to Leeds. Not to get to Leeds, yeah. You never got to see Darren. Didn't get to see Darren. And I bought him a box of chocolates as well.

30:14Where are they? Oh, you should have brought them in actually. Yes, you should. Oh, maybe I'll bring them in tomorrow. Although I'm not sure if you deserve it. I'll monitor the rest of your performance tonight. Fair enough. I'm allowed to have sugar again now, so you know. Oh, really? I went the whole month. I did it. Whole month. Any notable difference? well okay and this is absolutely true yeah if it's bowel related I don't want to know no the day the day that I was able to have sugar again I walked straight into my local supermarket and bought a tub of bohemian raspberry Ben and Jerry's and just ate the entire thing end to end you're totally yeah and can I say that is him in a nutshell yeah extremes of like feast or famine extremes of emotion extremes of like food talk about basic binges yeah also by the way Gary, Andrew anyone who's written in very good podcast you might want to go back to it wow right okay so now we have a thank you so we've gone from complaints to some high praise okay good is this one of the students who was watching your performance at Leeds University no although they were very sweet did they listen to the podcast you should have ensured they all signed up oh yeah oh come on I feel like Darren should make it part of the curriculum Darren asked a question he did say like in between because he was the man with the mic going around and in between questions he just said because I couldn't see him at that point so I said oh question from a listener but first time emailer and I was like oh okay and he goes so who's your favourite co-host out of Boyd and James very funny Darren right so it's a message from Dr.

31:41Kate he says dear team please could you offer my enormous thanks to both Barb and Daniel who in the last few episodes of the pod had taken my inquiry about historical TV timeline so very seriously I was so pleased that they both suggested series which I had not yet watched and I've added these series to my watch list. Being old school, this is handwritten notes stuck to my fridge. Perhaps I should start recruiting my students from the pilot TV listenership. Incidentally, I once set an episode of the pod as compulsory listening for my students in their independent study time. It was a review of the Netflix documentary Crime Scene, The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel in episode 127.

32:22During the review, the discussion between James Boyd and Terry turned to a consideration of the utilisation of true crime as a source of entertainment and became quite heated. It was the perfect supporting material for a course I was teaching on the rise of crime as entertainment during the 19th century. A further plea, I do not have the time or the technical know-how to become a subredditor, but please could my early medieval suggestions be added to Dan's wonderful historical TV timeline on the subreddit. I may even suggest my current students consult it. Very good wishes, Dr. Kate. Could we shoehorn King and Conqueror The Last Kingdom and the original Viking series into that into that historical chronology somewhere I think it was mentioned he mentioned that really?

33:01yeah yeah yeah okay wait which you apparently put up have you put up? I have I did put it on the subreddit as promised but I couldn't remember if The Last Kingdom was on there and King and Conqueror I'm not sure was Vikings might have been I can't remember okay I'll consider but either way they should be added to this canonical historical list yeah thanks for our listeners engaged listeners right now for a glaring omission it's a real rollercoaster of missions it really is yeah I did this intentionally Keep us on the back foot. It's from Kobe and he says Hi team I was listening to today's episode Monday the 10th of November very specific and your listener question about TV shows set in hotels motels or inns got me thinking obviously 40 Towers is the gold standard and you nailed that.

33:41Thanks Kobe that was me. But I was genuinely surprised that no one not even Boyd I know what he's going to say. Mentioned the first season of I'm Alan Partridge which was set Travel Tavern almost entirely Did I not mention that? Nope. In the iconic Linton Travel Tavern. Oh, I mean, I assumed I mentioned it first. Yeah, no, absolutely. Never assume. You know what happens. Right. Yeah. No, the Travel Tavern legendary. That's a massive oversight. Surely Alan's doomed attempts at small talk with the staff and those painfully awkward breakfasts deserve a spot on the list. The Linton Travel Tavern is as legendary as its hapless guest.

34:14Would love to hear your thoughts and maybe a Partridge quote or two. I'm taking, smell your cheese, you mother. Love, Kobe. Well, Alan's big plate. was a key moment of course. I feel like James would have a big plate. Yeah, definitely. Is it a buffet and he brings his own plate? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like a really enormous plate. I feel like that's what you do. I've never had a big plate, but I've had a big bowl. I wondered what you were going to say. When I went to school, I used to give the dinner lady, this was my primary school, a wink and she would give me the big bowl for customers. There was a big bowl.

34:49So I'd ask for the large bowl. James, there's shows about that. Do not wink at the... She'd give me the large bowl for my custard. Is this like a cry for help? No. What were you telling us? She was giving you a big bowl of custard? And it was me and there was another boy called Andrew Ward who went to school and he was the only other student who knew about the large bowl to ask for it. Oh my God. I don't know about this custard circle. This is very disturbing. I'm so... Is that an overshare? I don't know. I'll tell you what it is. Disconcerted. Is it? Okay. Back to Alan. Back to Alan in the trouble.

35:22It always returns to a sugary substance. If you say that this is something you also identify with, then I wouldn't be surprised. Alan's, of course, the secret of what's in his drawer. Alan's secret drawer. James' secret drawer. Custard. Is this like Felicity's roommate's box? No? Felicity who? Remember Felicity in the TV show Felicity? Oh. Was it Megan? And Megan had a box, a secret box. I don't know. Well, in this case, it's something embarrassing that he doesn't want anyone to see. And it's legendary. it's a bit like the fishing trip in Gavin and Stacey yeah it's a bit like that yeah good comparison um okay now for a message about detectives hi pod squad in light of Kay's recent foray into the Shetland Isles I was wondering if I could get a top three from each host for serialised character driven detective drama mysteries I'm not looking for cosy crime just good naughty mysteries with interesting protagonists and good chemistry among the supporting cast my top three are probably Broadchurch Unforgotten and The Missing.

36:21They are good shouts. They're good shouts. I'm not sure, but I thought he said serialized, what was the phrase he used? Serialized character-driven detective drama mysteries. Right, so we're not doing procedural because they're all ongoing stories. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, Broadchurch and I would say Happy Valley. That's on my list. Even though she's a sergeant and not technically. And Sherlock. Sherlock's on my list too. Strike would be on my list. I love Strike. Oh, that's good. I also listed the bridge slash the tunnel interesting so obviously there are three of those there's the American cable one there's Bruen the kind of Swedish Danish one and then there's the tunnel which is the English French one have you seen all three of those like which bridge for a start the first is on name your bridge I looked it up yesterday and I did have the in the meantime the game changing the game changer for foreign Scandi ones was the killing wasn't it which was absolutely brilliant to be fair the US remake of The Killing League which I think was AMC with Murenos and Joel Kinnaman genuinely really good I really like that as well yeah it was decent I mean it doesn't really count well it's not police procedural but House is a kind of medical mystery procedure that doesn't count well he's a medical detective he's a crime though isn't he I mean you're right it is a mystery there's definitely a mystery to it you know there's a new medical detective series coming up called Medical Detectives in which Dr.

37:44Watson really modern day Dr. Watson and becomes an investigator of medical mysteries. Hard part. Yes. You say that. You say that. We may end up reviewing it. I'm sure we will. Is this a network show? It feels like a network show. It's a network show. Who's in it? I can't remember who's in it. Sky Witness. I don't think it's anyone that big. It's on Sky Witness soon, though. Okay. It'll be his new favourite show by the end of the week or something. Yeah, exactly. He'll go, oh, guess what? I've binged eight episodes. He won't watch it and he'll assume it is procedural. Yeah, that's true. And then I'll get in trouble with the subreddit.

38:13Nice one, Boyd.

38:16I think like a great, and I have to say, a great British crime thriller is a pleasure, the likes of which there are a few, you know, there are a few things that quite match that for me. But for me, it has to be a British one. There's something about like Brit crime stuff where it has that earthy grittiness to it that I just, I delight in. Happy Valley is the best. It is the best. I mean, look, Blue Lights is another, you know, genuinely great sort of, it's technically crime, they're police. Oh no, police, it's not really a mystery, but. Oh no, Line of Duty. Yeah, Line of Duty, of course, Line of Duty.

38:46We've summed it up. There you go. We've answered the question. We've given you a lot of answers there, Chris. So thanks for your question. Cracker. Cracker is the best. Sorry. Cracker is my all-time favourite. Prime Suspect. If you're going back that far, Prime Suspect. Prime Suspect's another good one. But Cracker, Robbie Coltrane, when he gets in an interview room and interrogates a suspect, there I have rarely seen, you know, dialogue, acting, performances. It's just extraordinary. I mean, him versus Robert Carlyle, the L-I-V, E-R-P scene, as Albie, in To Be a Somebody, is magnificent. Peak TV.

39:16there you go that's the definitive answer yeah there we go definitive now we are going down under steady to hang out with Alistair who's our Aussie listener who got in touch to say after listening to the latest podcast I was inspired to do a history of Australia in TV form 10 pound poms is that on there James don't be silly what after 30 seconds I realised Australian history is boring as batshit so just so just watch Colin from accounts okay fair enough peace out Alistair what other well Ten Pound Poms would be a good example there was a good historical drama about I didn't enjoy Ten Pound Poms did you enjoy it I didn't watch all of it I don't remember disliking it I thought it was it was okay it was decent decent show but the the one I can remember is there was a drama with Russell Tovey in it about British convicts being taken to Australia yes there was which was really good I think it was Jimmy McGovern wrote it Who wrote Cracker.

40:16Yes. Full circle. There we go. Yeah. And I'm just going to find the title of it in this live Google search. Okay, while you're doing that, I'm going to talk about Kath and Kim being a great director. You do that. Yes. All the great Australian comedies we've got. Banished. Banished. Banished in 2015. It was really good. Only one series, but good. Okay. Thank you for your message, Alistair. Now we've got a message from Martin. He's queering zero stars. That's not from us. We know what that's referring to. So he says, Hi guys. While anyone with any taste would give your pod the full five, Martin, you know why I'm reading this out, right?

40:54But actually, crucially, have you given us five stars? Because if you haven't, that is egregious. I was reading a lot of pushback on the zero star reviews of All's Fair and people saying it was lazy reviewing and sets an awful precedent. I agree. Yeah, me too. Just interested to know your thoughts. Also, after the discussion on the last pod about going to places you've seen in films and TV. I would like to shout out... Now, is it N-E-I-R? N-E-I-R. N-E-I-R, I think. It's like we're. It's like near. Yeah, Niers Tavern in Queens, New York. Famous for being the bar, they met a bunch in Goodfellas.

41:35What's the matter with you? It's done as a quote. I'm not going to say in the... I don't know. What's the matter with you? Really friendly stuff and great to see a pub celebrating. it's 159th birthday great work guys always love the show and James go get your FN shine box I know what that means it's a reference to Goodfellas fine okay good what was the question again? well the question was about all the fair wasn't it but we kind of I think addressed this when we reviewed it where although I think that was before the no star reviews came out you know what's interesting was I listened to The Rest of Entertainment I'm going to state it again your favourite podcast yeah it's definitely a podcast I listen to regularly and they talked about the whole phenomenon of this show and it's no star rating and I made the point when we reviewed it I think people are judging it on the first episode only because they were talking about how the dialogue is perfunctory and boring and I mentioned the example I agreed to be honest yeah but I mentioned the example about how in the second episode someone refers to Kim Kardashian's character I'm going to say it again do not say it I am going to say it again as a comrade which I thought was you know that is whatever you think of that Is this your level for good writing?

42:42I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying whatever you think of that phrase deployed in that moment in the show, it's definitely not dull and uninteresting. It's not perfunctory. It's not perfunctory, exactly. So I was like, you've only watched the first episode. I'm not saying everyone should watch any more. But I just don't think, as we made the point at the time, I made the point at the time, it's just not a no-star review. There were just so many worse shows than this. And I think the pylon is a bit embarrassing. I put it to you that if that was not Kim Kardashian if it was any other actress in the world people would just say yeah it's just not very good I think Kim brought the spotlight and the heat but I do think you know besides that it is it's not good yeah for the other reasons we've said none of us are saying it's good I wasn't piling on because of Kim because as you know I like Kim but I think it's a proper knives out scenario where it's a combination we're not allowed to talk about films sorry go on sorry no I was saying because it's a combination that people are going for Ryan Murphy because he stretched him but it is partly like who does Kim Kardashian think she is pretending she can act you know I think there's a lot of that going on that's the other thing the other thing that surprised me about the rest of the same coverage they were kind of talking about it as if they hadn't it's not deliberately camp and over the top and almost like almost by accident it ended up being as it is it's like Ryan Murphy right that's his whole thing it's completely obviously setting out to be camp and ridiculous and over the top you know the scene where Sarah Paulson clambers onto the table to attack that's what You think he's going for realism.

44:10It's very Dynasty Dallas. Yeah, it is. That's what it's going for. That kind of tone is what it's going for. And you have to judge it on its own, you know, what it's trying to do. And whether it succeeds. And it's questionable whether it does. Oh, completely. Again, yeah, I'm not saying it's a good show. It's pretty much a terrible show. Not as bad as Monster, I still maintain. But I think people just... I'm slightly unfairly misunderstanding what it's trying to be. It's not trying to be a serious thing. It knows what it is. It does know it is, yeah. Whereas they were saying it didn't know what it was on that other podcast.

44:42Okay, well, you've just got to stop listening. I'm worried about your blood pressure. No, no, it doesn't get me that angry. I just think it's interesting how they got it wrong. Right, now, connected, another message about all her fault. No, it's a different show. Yeah, that's a different show. I mean, to be fair, all's well, all her fault. It's confusing. Yeah, and they came out the same week. Yeah. Thank you. Let's always be fair and overly generous to me. All's fair. It's a message from Michael. And it is about all her fault. And he says, Well, I've watched the whole thing in an attempt to fill in time while slow horses and the diplomat are ready to return.

45:15And quite frankly, it's not just her fault. It's everybody's fault. Is this a spoiler? Are you spoiling all her faults? No, I don't think so. I'll read it and then you can decide. Well, I'm not sure if I want to know because I haven't watched the end of it yet. Carry on, carry on. From the overprivileged lazy bollocks husbands who are such selfish narcissist bellends to the jaw-droppingly cheesy acting from the supporting cast, I honestly couldn't give a fuck if they found fucking Milo. Wow. Very angry. He's coming in hot. Yeah, Michael continues and says, in fact, I thought he'd be better off if they didn't.

45:46The whole thing desperately tries to portray a social commentary on the rights and wrongs of parenthood while the only redeeming part of this shit show are the actors who play the feds investigating the case and his utterly adorable son who has special needs. Worst dialogue since Crossroads. Oh, my gosh. And as for Sarah Snook. Yeah, don't come at crossroads with Kay here. From a succession to this. Not her fault, I guess, from Michael. What's interesting is that in The Guardian, which was the most prominent no-star review, remember, of All's Fair, in that very same week, they gave five stars to all her fault.

46:25Five is mad. To be fair, Lucy Mangum wrote it. I like Lucy Mangum. I think she'd watched more of it than I have. I think she finished it from what I'm reading. and I saw a lot of people on Instagram kind of talking about how well written it was and people really like you thought it was good I thought it was good I actually said I didn't think it was I'd give it four stars yeah I would give it four stars but it definitely didn't reach the heights of other similar shows I think but I need to watch the rest of it but that's harsh from our correspondent Michael's not happy yeah he's saying it's yeah opinions differ they always do right say sage this steady right the last message we're going to end on is from Steve who says on this week's pod you reviewed all her fault and we gave it a bit of a middling review did we?

47:13I don't think we did well I thought yeah maybe we did yeah we were just saying we didn't think it was in the upper echelons I mean I think I said I wasn't going to carry on with it which is accurate oh yeah you did and I said it wouldn't reach the heights of other similar shows but you know I'm open to okay well anyway Steve says that would usually send it to the bottom of his watch list but then he continues and says that this show was shot in and around his local neighbourhood with a snooty area of Melbourne standing in for a snooty area of Chicago. Oh, I read about that, yes. So he said he'll probably end up watching the whole thing with his wife pointing out the local landmarks and talking about which characters are similar to our own local school community.

47:50Can't wait. Question is, what is the most superficial reason you've watched something you might have otherwise skipped? Cheers, Steve. A superficial reason for watching something. So I guess it would be something like it's shot in your local area or you know someone in it. I mean, obviously, we all watched Bonjour La Class because I was starring in it and that seems like a decent reason. I think I've seen that clip for real. Really? The lack of respect you show me is extraordinary. I mean, hello, the lack of respect you show me every part is extraordinary. Fair enough. My starring role and you didn't sit down and watch them all on YouTube.

48:21Can you send me a link? I'll only watch you if you send me personally the link. Oh, yes, I'll just go and Google it for you and then send it to you. Yes, of course, I can absolutely do that for you. Listen, if it's good enough for Boyd, it's a Google, yeah. so I'm going to watch that I can't wait I mean is that really our answer? that is my answer James James is my answer have you ever watched something for superficial reasons? I mean I tend to watch stuff because I like it that's probably the only reason I would use it or unless I'm being forced to for this podcast superficial reasons what kind of I mean you must have had stuff shot in your building your plush oh yeah well the first series oh that's different I mean that's yeah yeah the first season of the trip with Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon, where Steve Coogan lived in that show was shot in where I live.

49:08So that was very exciting because I'm a huge fan of Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon and the trip, my favourite things as well. But superficial reasons have to be like, I can imagine if anyone related to Arsenal, and I'm trying to think, there probably is an example of a show that I knew had some connection with Arsenal, like maybe the, you know, someone in it was a fat Arsenal fan, a prominent Arsenal fan, or a player pops up in it exactly, I definitely would watch anything associated with Arsenal, put it that way. So that feels slightly superficial in that sense. That's a good answer. Thanks. On behalf of us all.

49:42Were you Arsenal fans as well? I didn't know. Well, listen, actually, I'm a converted gooner because of my niece Daisy, as you know. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, of course. Right. Come on, you spurs. Right, okay. That's it for the postbag. If you would like to send in your post, to send them to PilotTV at empiremagazine.com. And that is broadly all we have time for this episode. Although, Kay, you did intimate that you wished to discuss the traitors briefly. I think we should have a quick chit-chat. Let's do it. Now, as you know, I have lunch. I know you know this because I organised it while literally doing this podcast.

50:14So, but, you know, kick off and we'll see how far we get. Yeah. So, sound the klaxon. Okay. This is the klaxon.

50:24so we've got to talk about the finale boyd obviously because it was absolutely sensational now so i'm just going to quickly tell you that i got it completely wrong because i thought it was going to be a wednesday and thursday uh tv viewing schedule right so i i sat down on wednesday ready to watch it and then was like what the fuck i was going to text you but i couldn't bear it to watch ballad of yeah wallace island and do you know what i was obviously gussie because i wanted to watch it. But then I was thrilled because I thought I had it so lodged in my head that Joe Marler was going to end the game.

50:57Everyone did. Everyone assumed. And I thought well it's definitely going to happen and then across two episodes that's actually going to be quite of an anti-climax. It's not going to be great. So I was happy that they just obviously just did one episode the finale on Thursday as I discovered. And what a bloody twist. Yeah. Now I funnily enough I am going to mention the same podcast that I mentioned just now. Your obsession. So the rest is entertainment. Richard Osman did this whole spiel in the penultimate. So they've been doing weekly, to give them credit, they've been doing interesting weekly commentaries on the show after it goes out every week.

51:34And Richard Osman, at the end of the penultimate episode, said pretty much kind of what most people assume, which is that, yeah, it's Joe Marlis to lose. Him and Nick seemingly were agreeing about who the remaining traitors were. Such a strong bond between them as well. Really strong bond. Right at the beginning of the episode, he talks about, it's probably Kat and Alan. He thought it was both Kat and Alan. He guessed that, which was absolutely brilliant in his part. It was nailed on. And Nick Muhammad was kind of going along with that theory, he thought, and that they were, you know, kind of, they were very much like a duo who agreed on the same stuff.

52:11So, but what I thought was misguided about what Rich Olsen was saying was, often in the history of the show, and I include other territories versions, the American version, etc. Often, what you think the obvious thing that's going to happen in the end is, often fails to happen for various reasons. Because in the end, it all comes down to the psychological, what's going on in your head, and letting what's going on in your head rule the logical situation. And for me, it's really, that's bold to jump to the conclusion that things are going to play out as you think, just because of what everyone's saying on the show in that penultimate episode and the beginning of this episode.

52:51In Richard's defence, right, I think it's because Marla is a man of conviction, right? Sure. And he's unwavering. Whereas I didn't anticipate how the pressure of being in that room would affect Nick and also how that one comment to Kat of like, sorry, would completely like scramble his brain. And you can see how that happened, right? So if someone like says sorry, you think, oh my God, is that because they're fellow traitors and he feels really bad that he votes, all this kind of stuff. He's drawn that conclusion and it's understandable. But I hadn't accounted for the fact that Nick could be more easily swayed.

53:28That's interesting. The other thing he said was that he thought, because he made such a bold statement that it's definitely going to be Joe Miles to lose. He couldn't work out any other way in which he would lose. He really went for it. Like, and he was even talking about how the producers, you know, would they be tempted to do a last minute, you know, kind of addition to the format or change in the format to create a twist. But my point, and what's interesting is that he even said, as far as saying, there must have been a conversation between the people that we're not worthy to. Oh, wow, he really went down this rabbit hole.

54:06Yeah, as if like, but my point is, no, no, no, all it takes is for Nick Muhammad to start having doubts about Joe Mahler for perfectly valid reasons. Yeah. You know, and that's exactly what happened. And then people were saying, why didn't he, why didn't Nick Muhammad do another round, right? When you throw your, you know, because he could have, he could have, well, the answer is, and they were saying, you know, what's he got to lose? He could have been more specific, you know, about picking out whoever's left to just see if they were a traitor. And, you know, and to see if he might end up making sure they don't win all the money if they were a traitor.

54:39But again, logic wasn't what was happening at that point. it was what was going on in his head and what was going on in his head was he got suddenly decided Joe Marler was the final traitor. He was convinced. And he wasn't even thinking that it was Alan at that point or anything. That was the brilliance of it. That's the brilliance of the former is that just when you think you know who's going to vote for who and why they undermine themselves or they get completely caught up in the moment or they create an idea that is from nowhere. Listen, lest we forget. Do you remember with the Harry series?

55:12when he crossed out the name and you're like, no! Right, that's what I was thinking of. So, you know, it wasn't a case of Nick Muhammad not realising the logic of he could have carried on another round in the final. He thought he'd found out who the traitor was and he thought he was Joe Marlow. How great was that? Absolutely. He was completely horrified. Now, as we've said, we've worked extensively with Alan and he comes across, how he comes across on screen is exactly how he is. And the thing is, throughout the series, he'd been really sort of like, you know, like revelling in being a traitor almost and be like, oh, you know, like he's quite quippy and funny about it.

55:47But you do, you know, I think, well, at least for me, I underestimated the pressure that puts on him and the decision making and like the fact he like killed, in inverted commas, Paloma. And at the end, like he genuinely felt so terrible that he burst into tears and I felt really bad for him. But I think that the burst into tears was everything, all the emotions, all built up into everything. Yeah, of course. And winning, and winning it as well. You know, it's all, it's the kind of extremes of emotion that this format brilliantly puts you through. And Jonathan Ross, again, talked about, he talked about this a lot on his own podcast with his daughter, that he found it really genuinely painful towards the end.

56:26He was incredibly relieved that he could go home finally when they banished him. He was massively, because he couldn't, by that point, he was getting psychologically affected by it. And I think people, I didn't pick up on that. That's really interesting. Yeah, no, he was really going through the mill. His daughter said other people wouldn't actually notice, but if you looked at him, he was like pale and drawn right in the final roundtable session. Poor J-Roy. And I think, and Jonathan, you know, he's been doing this stuff for literally decades and isn't affected by anything like this normally.

56:57But it's the pressure of the game, a game which relies on people not trusting each other and having to fall out of... And even though it's only within the context of the game, and there are certain people, you know, I think who have taken it too seriously. Which Jonathan referred to, right? So do you have an idea? Because I was speculating in my head who that was. What's your theory? Well, it's Ruth, isn't it? Yeah, Ruth Cobb. I thought it was Ruth. He hasn't said this, by the way. No, I know. So you thought Ruth. I thought it was Mark. Oh, no, I don't think it's Mark. Because of the jokey t-shirt.

57:27No, no, no. But that showed he was joking. I think Ruth Cobb seems to genuinely hate Jonathan. I mean, I'm just saying, I don't know if that's true. Or she might deny it. But she seems to have a genuine ill feeling. just mainly because that went back to him allegedly talking about whether they were going to have an alliance and all of that and him being very firm but if you carry on thinking these thoughts after the game's finished that's problematic I know but I think it's because when you're in the midst of it even though you know it's a game it becomes a reality and you take it personally sometimes and I think the celebrities didn't realise so from now on they will and in fact finally I've done an interview with Dermot Leary and I asked him about would he do the traitors and he said he wouldn't be able to resist doing it he'd love to do it basically but he would really worry that he'd be a terrible traitor and it really affects him when particularly his peers think ill of him and I think he hit the nail on the head because these people are showbiz David O 'Hara Shoga is just a really good guy who happens to be a TV academic but by and large These are people used to just hearing compliments and being acclaimed and being loved by the public, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

58:45And, you know, maybe too much criticism from the media, but you can put that to one side. When you're suddenly faced with your own peers in your similar world, not trusting you and judging you for being untrustworthy, that is a big thing to deal with. I think if Dern went on it, he'd have to be a faithful, without a doubt. Do you know who else has expressed interest and they absolutely should... Studio Lambert should be snapping them up. Yes, I know what you're going to say. Danny Dyer. Oh, no, I didn't think you were going to say that. Danny Dyer's gone on record and said... Well, similarly, Richard E.

59:13Grant. Oh, he would be fantastic. He's in this film coming up called Nuremberg, which I went to the screening of last week, and he was chatting away to Leo Wardle, who's also in it, and they were talking about, would they do traitors? And Richard E. Grant said he'd love to do it, and I'm like, that is number one. I'm sorry, that is it. Yeah, the male Celia Imri. Big dogs. He would be a brilliant big dog for the next series. By the way, just when you're bringing up big dog, the interesting thing about the Mahler thing is that no one thought, did he come up with a theory of Big Dog? Yeah, I think so.

59:39No one ever queried the fact that, are you a Big Dog saying this? Well, every now and then they kind of did, I think, didn't they? I don't think they associated him with Big Dog energy because it was always about Jonathan Ross and Stephen Fry. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, he could have been a double bluff. That would have been extraordinary if that had been the case. I think Big Dog kind of referred also to cultural icons as well, didn't it? like people who are I don't think he is that yet I mean I think he is now Joe Marlon No but in terms of how he presents he's got big dog energy Oh yeah 100 % but I think that this big dog theory is more about the stature that they have in the industry and stuff but yeah I mean but going back to finally go back to the show it's all down to I love Nick Muhammad as much as you know we all love Alan Carr Nick Muhammad is an absolute delight as well and I've interviewed him and I've been on an awards panel with him and he was absolutely amazing yeah totally and he is fantastic and this is going to be a brilliant I mean his career he's also already having a brilliant career but it will definitely be a boost for him because he's so well known but it's all down to him I think he should get all the credit for not being a predictable I mean he got it wrong which led to Alan winning but what I'm saying is him getting it wrong created the TV moment of the year I also think Alan deserves a lot of credit for the fact that he didn't play it how traitors usually play it in terms of openly laughing when he's saying unfaithful being in Vertical was a bad traitor he wasn't obviously he was a great traitor but like you know he was often called oh I'm such a bad traitor he's such a bad traitor because he's doing this and the other but actually that's what made him a fantastic traitor yeah but I think as someone else pointed out on the did you watch the post show yes I loved it oh my god by the way if anyone hasn't watched that I'd highly recommend it yeah I think someone pointed out that everyone just thought Alan's being Alan even when he laughed and couldn't say I am a faithful it was just Alan everything everything was Alan being Alan all the way through and he just and people just brilliantly trusted him and believed he was just being himself rather than being someone who's sweating at the beginning and being too you know all of that but it all made for i think the casting again because nick mohammed that that final gang of people was so brilliantly interesting and so brilliantly cast that that's what helped it all become the phenomenon that has been and it has it's now the most watched show of the year it's um it's and i think two of us being commissioned yeah of course i think that is one of the best finals ever in all traitors because it has that incredible amount of unpredictability Oh I'm saying TV reality gold like the cultural moment of the decade like it's been sensational We will outdo each other cultural moment of the century the cultural moment of the millennium Stop swinging Can I just say also the BBC have said that basically it's boosted the Scottish economy by 21.8 million so like all round Studio Lambert printing money right they are exceptional at casting and creating these?

1:02:27Do they create these? Who created these? You know, obviously they're behind Gogglebox and Traitors and all the shows we'd have race across the world. Yeah, but they've done it in terms of the production. Yeah. I think the... We'll wrap up soon, sorry. I think the tasks this year, the casting, the way it's shot, Claudia, the fart from Celia Emery, all of these moments make it add up to an absolute legendary, even by their standards. this is a legendary series and before we wrap up last word just goes to the brilliance of Claudia Winkleman yeah like anyone who was concerned when she said she's stepping down strictly worry not because she is an absolute staple the linchpin of The Traders she's fantastic thanks I enjoyed listening to every word of that attentively I mean we'll test you on it in the next podcast yeah can you imagine for everyone who hates Traitors I can only apologise for that right okay that's it we're finished for this week's show we'll be back in your ears on Monday when you will get to hear our big old in-studio chat with Vince Gilligan Carolina Wighter and Ray Sehorne for Pluribus which is very very exciting we'll be reviewing The Death of Bunny Monroe we will be reviewing Malice and we will be reviewing Summer Water as well see you then pilot out