PLUS The Diplomat

4:36Kay:Well, spoiler, there will be canoodling. Oh, lordy. Yeah, oh, lordy indeed. So, I'm going to turn to UK. Now, despite the unconvincing running, how did you find it?

4:48Keri Russell:I really enjoyed the first episode I've only watched the first episode but I yeah I obviously had taken slightly against it at the end of last series the ridiculous nature of the formation running on the lawn which I still maintain is absolutely ridiculous

5:00Rufus Sewell:how many times

5:01Bradley Whitford:have we discussed this moment it's like

5:04Kay:it's insane you know sometimes

5:06Keri Russell:these little moments just stick with me and I can't let them go

5:08Kay:that is 100 % what would happen and also it wouldn't of course it would and then notice that they also they bundle her immediately into a safe room as well. Yeah, of course.

5:17Keri Russell:Yeah, I'm sure that would happen. Oh, the bundling's fine. It's the running in information. Formation, like swans. But they're trained, aren't they,

5:23Rufus Sewell:to do a certain thing. That's the point, isn't it?

5:25Keri Russell:Run in formation? Run like swans. Yeah, yeah. No, you know, I can see the look in your eye you've got no conviction behind that. No, no, no, no.

5:32Bradley Whitford:I'm completely convicted. I have total conviction. That high-level security officers, when told that the president's been killed, not the president's died, rather, I mean, may have been killed, that's part of the discussion, that they would instantly have to, in formation protect the new acting default president and take whisk them away to the special place well all I'm saying

5:55Keri Russell:is then going forward maybe if we have to suddenly go somewhere we see a famous person from TV that we want to run to I will now insist we run in the formation

6:02Kay:I think Kay would have preferred if it was a bit more like it's a knockout where they're all just like jumping over inflatables and bumping off things or weapons when they're all running along

6:11Bradley Whitford:with their arms slightly in the air army rolls

6:13Keri Russell:all that like this whole synchronised running which is now apparently a thing. But anyway, let's move on. It's an Olympic sport. Yeah, soon to be seen.

6:22Bradley Whitford:Let's not get hung up on the bloody opening running seat.

6:27Kay:Honestly, who among us, what right-minded person, would get obsessed, fixated on a really random, mundane, run-of-the-mill thing like, I don't know, a corridor? No one would do that. So let's just carry on and just gloss over that. I love him in cactus mode.

6:41Keri Russell:So spiky. I got obsessed with the corridor.

6:45Rufus Sewell:That's strictly true. Carry on.

6:48Keri Russell:At least it's scattergun. He's going for both of us.

6:51Bradley Whitford:That's one word for it.

6:52Keri Russell:Which is how I'd prefer the running. But anyway. So yeah, Prez is dead. I really liked the detail of, you know, the VP, Alison Janney's character, being taken into the safe room, everything that's done to protect her, but also she needs to be immediately sworn in. So I love all the machinations of them panicking about where's that going to be? the bible that's used um the background who can be there like the politics of you know the bridge pm trobridge um wanting to come you know like i just thought that was all really well handled and obviously added a level of attention to proceedings now something else that adds to the tension which i think is brilliant is the fact that um carrie russell's character kate is desperately trying to shut up motor mouth how now as we know that is a completely um it's a fool's errand it can't happen because this man has loose lips but it's enjoyable to see her the panic in her as she sets in as he tries to have a conversation with the vp and she does not want that to happen because she doesn't know what he's going to say so yeah overall i thought it was really um really well handled there's small details i particularly liked like um there's a moment where the vp is getting changed and there's uh she suffers a wardrobe malfunction or she's not quite happy with her outfit and kate pulls out a genius move out the bag that is you know reminiscent of like 90s naughty's got one like i was like how did she pull that out the bag but i just show how brilliantly resourceful she is when she has to be so anyway i i thought it was really good exactly you know what you'd want from it more more mouthfuls of the gourmet burger very moorish um and entertaining and i just have to say my conclusion to this is and we i already knew it but it's been you know further proven how has got some balls on him right this man you've seen house balls i have not but some of his actions he's breathtakingly ballsy and the lengths he goes to considering that the President of the United States of America has died and his priorities in this moment aren't quite where some would think they are or well they are where you'd think they would be but yeah like I said his chutzpah is quite astonishing

9:02Kay:I don't understand how you are only able to watch one episode I know yeah I don't understand

9:08Keri Russell:foolishness I'm currently being very disciplined with slow horses as you know i'm like i'm watching it live right um with diplomat i tell you what happened is truthfully and not to like if anyone wants to get their little violin out look i don't instruct you but i am currently still experiencing um symptoms of vertigo and so i could just about manage one and then i was like i've been trying to take it easy basically i can't overload and i want to enjoy it i want to save it like i would with a vegetarian gourmet burger so that's it But as soon as I'm in fine fettle, I will be ferociously consuming it.

9:42Kay:A vegetarian gourmet burger. Boydie, as our resident part-time vegetarian, tell us, what did you think? I absolutely loved it.

9:50Bradley Whitford:Love it. It's a little bit difficult to describe just how pleasurable it is and why, what the magical formula is. It's got bits and pieces of loads of other types of shows. You know, we've seen, you know, from the West Wing itself to, what was the one with, you know, kind of hostages in the Middle East? And there's just been, you know, loads of... Political thrillers? Yeah, political thrillers. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for floundering. Remember the names of specific ones? But there are loads and loads and loads of depictions of fictional presidents and TV shows built around this kind of similar milieu.

10:28Bradley Whitford:but there is something about the way that the ingredients are mixed together in this show that's just magical and magically addictive. Oh, magical. I think it is magical. And we call it a gourmet burger, which is a slight disservice to it in a way, because I think the writing is brilliant. I just think the dialogue is fantastic. It's an absolute object lesson in how to write slightly heightened dialogue that doesn't come across as ridiculously clever and smart, even though pretty much everyone in it is clever and smart, like the West Wing. People used to discuss whether or not people were too witty, right?

11:11Bradley Whitford:They haven't listened to this podcast. Well, exactly. But I think in this, they just do a brilliant job, the writers, in giving people funny things to say when it's appropriate and when it's going to work. and other times one thing I noticed after a while and once you notice it it's one of those things once you notice it the first time you kind of keep seeing it again and again but what they do often is someone will there will be a discussion with two key characters or whatever or more and someone will say something incredibly important and with huge ramifications and the person they're talking to will just be silent about it you notice that there will just be a shot of them going kind of just refusing to say anything because what they've just been said to them is so momentous and or funny and or it doesn't need there is no response

11:53Keri Russell:I like that

11:54Bradley Whitford:they do that a lot but it works it works very well there's a scene in episode I can't even remember what episode it is among the six I've watched later on quite late but this is where the security team assigned to Kate she gets this new security team and there's among them is a woman who's supposed to be her double if if it comes to it

12:19Keri Russell:oh my god I love it

12:20Bradley Whitford:I very very rarely laugh out loud generally like even in my favorite comedies like alan partridge i'll laugh out loud quite a lot but it's very rare woody allen films but it's very rare rare i just laugh internally most of all so i was cackling like a madman at this moment where she looks at this woman who has the worst hair in the world it's all about her hair and she says to her it's fine but i wasn't going for the open convertible look you know with the well that's ironic because actually last

12:50Keri Russell:series. Do you remember? There was a real thing of like the VP having a chat with her about like, you know, the fact she looks like she's been dragged through the hedge.

12:56Bradley Whitford:Oh, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing. She's like, yeah, she refers to the drag through hedge version. But it's an ongoing theme is her hair, how terrible her hair is, which is brilliant that Kerry Russell kind of allows that to be a storyline. But it's so funny because this woman, this Secret Service woman will not say a word, doesn't say a word, she has got the worst hair ever. And just watching Kerry Russell looking at this woman and her terrible hair is fucking hilarious. It just was, it really tickled me for some reason. I was just laughing like an idiot at this moment. So it's kind of funnier than most comedies when it needs to be.

13:27Bradley Whitford:It's more thrilling than most political thrillers when it comes down to it because the stakes start out often being quite complicated. Seriously, you might consider this a spoiler, you can exit it out if you want, but halfway through, there's a reset, isn't there, within the time frame. There's a little mini time jump in the middle of this season. And at first I thought, that's a little bit cheating because you haven't really resolved certain things but actually it works quite well because it's a bit of a rug pull and it initiates a storyline that starts off you think what the fuck are they talking about like Danish waters and fishing and this and that and the other but then it builds into having like huge ramifications so you know as it goes on

14:08Keri Russell:A water theme like last series do you remember when it's all about Scotland Yeah, Scotland

14:11Bradley Whitford:Yeah, yeah, yeah So the stakes feel higher than they usually do in this type of show It's just everything it's just an absolute Rolls Royce of a drama as well as being a gourmet burger I love every minute of it there's a slight I would say people you might think you could debate how does this season compare to the previous two right I think there's a little bit of a dip in the middle of this series but I think there probably was in previous ones as well when the Danish waters

14:37Keri Russell:got mentioned a little bit

14:37Bradley Whitford:when the Danish waters come up to be honest a little bit around the reset as I'm putting it but it doesn't last long Aidan Turner's in it in this series I won't say anything about who he played it has been announced that he's in it. But when he pops up, you're like, oh, brilliant. Aidan Turner's in as well now. Oh, great. You know, who I love anyway. And he's great. Has a really great character to play. It just, and even when it's, yeah, I was going to say, the thrills are more thrilling. The comedy writing is funnier. And also, there's like romantic stuff going on. And even that is like more believable and realistic.

15:11Bradley Whitford:The way they handle potential sexual couplings. it's just it's really clever and smart and kind of feels real as well within the context of this whole world so it's just I think

15:25Keri Russell:oh I cannot wait to watch more now yeah

15:28Kay:idiots it's very very good my not criticism but I think it took me a while to adjust in the second season because the first season had a very distinct structure to it where it started largely based around almost like not quite comedy of manners but it was very much like she was it was the clash of cultures between the Americans and the Brits and she was in this new role and she was getting used to England and English fussiness and all these different things and her dealing with the the sexual tension with the foreign secretary and then obviously the rogue loose cannon who is Rory Kinnear as the Prime Minister oh my god Rory Kinnear who is wonderful he's so brilliant you see more and more of him

16:05Rufus Sewell:which is a brilliant decision and he's got brilliant lines fantastic yeah it's the way he touches her all the time he can't get his fucking hands off her she's standing there

16:13Bradley Whitford:going to go get the fucking hands off me but yeah

16:15Kay:she doesn't she can't it's yeah but the first season it ramps up from that into into a political thriller and I felt with the second season because they start in high gear I think they struggled to shift down like it felt like okay we built this head of steam to all this political stuff and it now felt like they couldn't take the foot off the accelerator and it just barreled on and to a certain extent this does a bit as well and I think what you're talking about there the time jump I think what that enables them to do is shift down a gear a little bit because it gets to such a point where everything's happening.

16:46Kay:It's just like, this is unsustainable. Like, it's exhausting. So they're able to have a soft reset and then ramp up again. So I actually think it works quite well. A soft reset. A soft reset. I like this new term.

16:55Keri Russell:There you go.

16:56Kay:So I really like that. I loved every minute of this. I'm thrilled that it was eight episodes and not six. Yeah, I'm delighted I've got two more to watch.

17:04Keri Russell:Specifically because you and everyone have a good moment. Yes.

17:08Kay:What is this six episode bullshit?

17:10Keri Russell:Oh, eight's a good number.

17:12Kay:No, it is great. And it's really fun. and again it's one of these things where you think oh my god oh my god and then it gets to the end and you're like I need more now you must make more

17:20Keri Russell:also the casting

17:22Bradley Whitford:is so brilliant it's one of those shows where all of the supporting group are played by just perfectly cast David Yassi is fantastic as Denison I also like her staff Aliana

17:36Rufus Sewell:Aitra is brilliant

17:38Bradley Whitford:and Aitra Sando

17:40Kay:is really really good as Stuart

17:41Bradley Whitford:and actually I think Rufus Sewell gets to do brilliant brilliant stuff in this series as well. I think they use him really well. There's a scene in, kind of, Bring Boy Through where he's getting more and more angry with Kate, but he can't say anything because he's in a kind of public situation and the camera kind of slowly pans in on him to the point where he's about to explode and he's brilliant, brilliant in that moment.

18:03Kay:He's so good. I love the fact that she's also, she's such a ridiculous maverick because she's basically a CIA field operative having to work as, well, she actually has two jobs in this, but let's not get into that. But she has to work as an ambassador. And sometimes she just does just mad stuff. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. You're like, why are you doing this? She's just like, I'm just going to do some crazy shit because I can't be bothered to mess about. But that's the thing.

18:26Keri Russell:They're both loose cannons. That's why it's such a potent pairing, right?

18:29Bradley Whitford:Yeah. Yeah, in fact, she judges him as being the loosest of loose cannons. But actually, she is... Rich coming from her.

18:35Kay:She's a maniac. An absolute maniac.

18:37Keri Russell:That's why I love her. Yeah.

18:38Kay:She's so good. Kerry Russell's fantastic. Yeah, really, really, really enjoyed this. Different matter of season three. watch it immediately and then watch it again because it's great when is it air boy today

18:48Bradley Whitford:I think as we go out on Thursday

18:50Rufus Sewell:Thursday yeah what a treat everyone's got in store yeah and hopefully we will have

18:56Kay:a little bit of spoiler discussion if and when my colleagues watch the rest of it cheeky git post bag

19:06Rufus Sewell:ladies and gentlemen it's Miss Kay versus the post bag

19:22Keri Russell:Yes, right, let's get into it. We've had a bumper postbag this week. And I start with a first-time emailer, Sam the Claxon. They say, so it's Jack, and he says, last week I discovered the absolute joy of cold water. Seeing Andrew Lincoln being an absolute coward was brilliant. I kept expecting him to turn full Rick at any moment and take charge anyway could you consider doing a spoiler special about it I'd love to hear your thoughts on the wild twists and turns of the series kind regards Jack yeah

19:52Rufus Sewell:shoes on the other foot now have you watched the whole series James I have not for the spoiler special cold water spoiler special

19:59Bradley Whitford:going on in my head

20:00Rufus Sewell:right now

20:00Kay:what's that you know cat's got your tongue so what you're saying is both of you had secretly planned to do a cold water spoiler special in this episode

20:06Allison Janney:well I've watched it and I'm unprepared no I haven't

20:08Kay:Okay, good. Yeah, no, I have not watched any more Cold Water.

20:12Keri Russell:Okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to park that one with James, and then if it doesn't happen, you know who's playing. It's my fault, yeah. Following on to another email.

20:20Bradley Whitford:I'm very glad that that listener enjoyed it, because I really enjoyed it. It is very entertaining.

20:27Keri Russell:Well, Boyd, I hold your horses, because, yes, there's a message from Cathy about Cold Water. Does Cathy not agree? No, I can sense. she says is it just me or are a lot of TV shows just going way over the top lately

20:40Bradley Whitford:yes

20:40Keri Russell:I watch I watch Coldwater with my mouth hanging open at the preposterous plotting and characterisation and I've just re-listened to your plus rave review of it okay so Boyd was in the Coldwater pocket but this show just got madder and madder and for me not in a good way the characters bore little relation to normal human beings and the twists were just ridiculous Eve Miles appeared to be in a different show it seems I mean, it's not wrong. It seems to me that a lot of writers slash showrunners slash producers who seem to be saying, sod it, let's throw the kitchen sink into this script and make this mad as a box of frogs.

21:14Keri Russell:I'm thinking of Smoke and those final episode shenanigans. Plus, I enjoyed Keely Hall's as the assassin, but that show got more and more off its trolley as it went on. What a brilliant expression. Let's not talk about Gina Gershon. Kate Winslet's The Regime was truly bonkers, although more satirical perhaps. it seems to me original shows or limited series are especially prone to going wild maybe trying to make a bigger splash question mark is it short attention span tv i get the feeling something more deliberately paced just wouldn't get made everything has to be faintly shocking and grab attention obviously a crime show or psychological thriller will build to a climax and poirot bringing all the suspects into the drawing room for a civilized chat is not the tone today's dramas are going for it's a shame kathy that's what i'm saying um but wild leaps seem to be much more commonplace right now tell Tell me how wrong I am.

22:02Keri Russell:Regards, Kathy.

22:02Kay:It's an interesting question. What do you think?

22:05Bradley Whitford:Yeah, well, I can't argue with any of that. But I've mentioned before that I think, yeah, people are...

22:11Keri Russell:You're down for it as well.

22:12Bradley Whitford:Yeah, I totally... Yeah, I mean, not all... I mean, the... What's the one she mentioned? Kate Winslet one. Oh, the regime. That was just annoying. But it was annoying, not so much because of the wild storyline, etc., just because I just thought the whole tone of it was irritating. but I am up for I like big swings and bonkers plot twists etc so I think you choose right in the sense that I think probably the pressure is on because there's so much out there this is my theory that I've mentioned many times now which is that to make a real splash and to make a mark it has to be extra bonkers helps, that's one way of making stuff I think it's a shame I don't think it's a shame at all

22:55Keri Russell:I think it's a shame if everything has to be... No, no, no, but not everything.

22:58Bradley Whitford:Not everything.

22:59Kay:I just think like... I would say there's quite a preponderance of the preposterous at the moment. And I wonder why that is. I was actually thinking about this recently because it feels to me a little bit that we live in a time where life is preposterous. Where... Big heavy thoughts. Genuinely, like if you look at news, you can look at politics. It feels like everything is dialed up to 11. Like everything is excess. like the politicians the personalities in politics and you know not that everything relates back to the West Wing but it does but you go back to kind of the noughties and everything just seems so vanilla like it seems quite bland and I don't mean in terms of world events because there have always been wars and tragedies and all sorts of things going on but in terms of like the way politics have gone with the personalities involved it feels like everything is almost caricatured it's so extreme and there is a point I mean we talked about like why Veep couldn't really continue why House of Cards couldn't continue because when reality becomes more absurd than the fantasy.

23:54Kay:It's not satire and it's not comedy. It's just boring. So, you know, at this point, is there a thirst then for drama to try and, let's be honest, probably fail to actually outdo the reality so they have to take it to greater and greater extremes?

24:08Bradley Whitford:I don't know if there is... I know what you mean. It's tempting to think there is a link between, you know, Donald Trump, let's face it, standing up and the speech he gave. I mean, a writer would be hard-pressed, right, to write something so demented as what he came up with, you know see when he flew back I'm not even thinking of the initial speech he gave to the Knesset in Israel was one thing but when he then flew on to the next bit and do you see the bit with the Prime Minister in the background it was a variety show it was hilarious and it was it was like something that some a writer of the diplomat could come up with but I don't think there's necessarily a direct link between how mad real world politics is right now which it obviously is I think it's more that there's a surfeit of stuff and to make a splash and to get noticed.

24:58Bradley Whitford:For cut through. Yeah, for cut through. Thank you. To get bums on seats. All of those phrases. It really helps if you go wildly over the top. I think that's true. And it's not to everyone's taste. I think, and by the way, I'm not saying I'm in favour of things that just don't make sense and are ridiculous to the point where you don't believe a word of it and it's just annoying. I think in the case of Smoke and some of the others that the listener mentioned, that they achieve its rug pulls and its twists brilliantly. So it has to be done well. Yeah, but I do think it's true that there is probably more...

25:34Bradley Whitford:One way of getting noticed is to go down the mad.

25:38Keri Russell:And then it'll become so saturated and it'll no longer be the way because we'll be so, yeah, over it. I think there'll always be,

25:45Bradley Whitford:because you've just got to find a different way, haven't you, to be bonkers and mad.

25:48Keri Russell:And then you come up with monster, but less said than that. better. Well, it's a true story, Kay. Yes, I know. Very good point. Yes.

25:55Bradley Whitford:Within its madness.

25:56Keri Russell:I agree with everything you said, but I also think it will drive more and more people towards the shows that I tend to lean into, like the, you know, the Bake Offs, the street, do you know what I mean? Things that are just escapism from what, the madness. Well, there's different tones of madness, isn't it?

26:11Kay:Because what we're talking about, and again, like this may speak to a little bit what we've been talking to, it's like when reality becomes quite bleak, you gravitate towards possibly escapism, possibly Bake Off, things like that, But also, you don't want sometimes your escapist drama to feel too real. And I think the madness also helps it feel distinct. In the same way with science fiction, there's a clear delineation between what's real and what's not. You watch science fiction, this is not my reality, this is a separate thing I can enjoy on a different level. And I think when you take stuff that's set in the contemporary world, but you make it completely banana crackers, it maybe does the same thing.

26:41Bradley Whitford:I mean, it can go the other way. Like the, I know it's a film, sorry, but the Downton Abbey film, the last Downton Abbey film, right? Yes. Half the film is about... The grand finale. half the film is about the country fair you know and what they're going to do and bake cakes and it's like he's gone completely deliberately it feels like that's a deliberate thing on the part of the writer Julian Fallows Julian Fallows thank you forgot his name obviously to go down and to go like I literally could not be less melodramatic and bonkers or anything it's just complete like it's almost to an absurd degree low stakes

27:15Keri Russell:I think there is an appetite for that and then we're going to see that when we review Leonard and Hungry Paul as well, I think.

27:20Rufus Sewell:Well, indeed. In fact, some of the... Spoiler for Monday's podcast. Yes. And other shows are reviewing in that episode.

27:28Keri Russell:Okay, we move on from Cold Water to... Okay, so I have a feeling I've read these questions out, but Annika, our listener, has sent them in, we sent them a couple of times, so now I just want to make sure that we've covered them off.

27:40Kay:So just to be clear, you've been ignoring Annika for a long time, and you're now finally going to read out our question.

27:45Keri Russell:These are... No, absolutely not, because I genuinely believe we have, but I feel bad.

27:49Rufus Sewell:Maybe she wants some new answers.

27:51Keri Russell:Okay, well, you can provide those. Right. Oh, God.

27:53Rufus Sewell:Remember what you said last time,

27:54Kay:just say something completely different.

27:56Keri Russell:Right, anyway, Annika says, without sounding like an almighty loser, I'm doing my third rewatch of Never Have I Ever on Netflix, the teen comedy drama about an Indian girl living in a westernised country, living a westernised lifestyle, but constantly reminded of her cultural roots. It's written by Mindy Kaling. I adore it for many reasons, but mainly because I see a lot of myself in the main character. Is there a show that you connect with for similar reasons, for example, because you relate to a character, a location, or a storyline?

28:22Kay:I'm a middle-class straight white man, pretty much represented in every show on television, so I don't feel especially hard done by. So I guess, yeah, I guess I don't really have that. Do you, Boydie, do you?

28:34Rufus Sewell:Oh, I mean, there's plenty of people I do identify, like Larry David. Yeah, I was going to say. I mean, it's an obvious, sorry, it is the obvious answer.

28:42Keri Russell:I think you said that last time. Should I have said Alan Partridge?

28:44Rufus Sewell:and be like, yeah, I feel C every time I watch Alan. Come on, James. You could be Alan. You could be Psychic Simon. Psychic Simon's great, by the way.

28:54Keri Russell:For me, mine's, and I'm not choosing this because it's like we reviewed it last week, but I feel like Riot Women was something that resonated.

29:02Bradley Whitford:You're a younger generation than they are.

29:05Keri Russell:I am, but you're entering middle age and you're becoming invisible. But I think it's a great point, because obviously Sally has made this point that it's not just about the menopause and stuff like that. But in terms of everyone midlife, possibly discovering that actually they want to feel more joy and then voicing actually what they want. So yeah, for me, and that's a new answer, but I think I can't remember what I said before, but yeah. Now on for the secondary question, which I also think, and I know what my answer was, so I'm going to repeat it. Annika says, after watching Black Mirror's Hotel Reverie, if you could transport yourself into any TV show or film, which would you choose?

29:43Keri Russell:now my answer then and still is is like I would love to experience just for a week the opulence and wealth of the Kardashians having someone cook clean style me etc etc

29:52Kay:so you'd go Kardashians not Downton Abbey where you have like a whole staff downstairs

29:57Keri Russell:no because I probably would be downstairs let's face it so I want to be upstairs you'd be in the kitchen

30:01Bradley Whitford:working for Mrs Patmore yes thank you very much

30:03Keri Russell:so yeah I want to be upstairs you'd be downstairs

30:05Bradley Whitford:being treated brilliantly by Hugh Bonneville and you know Elizabeth Flingy by the way McGovern yeah so you know because obviously we can but hope

30:13Keri Russell:but I don't want to take that risk right so get me up up those stairs yeah Boydo what about you

30:18Bradley Whitford:um well it's a TV or film I mean yeah

30:22Keri Russell:I think we lean heavily into the TV

30:24Bradley Whitford:well I cannot I cannot get um ever since she passed away at the weekend Diane Keane I cannot get Diane Keane ever because I she's one of my very favourite people ever as I was growing up I watched films with Woody and Diane Keane and I have watched two of her films since Manhattan and Annie Hall and Annie Hall just her walking along the streets of New York in her incredible style that she had that she she kind of almost invented herself I would love to be transplanted there that's for sure yeah absolutely standing in the queue waiting for the film to start the famous scene in Annie Hall so yeah I can't I can't shake that out of my head I'm afraid that is a film those are films

31:03Keri Russell:well actually now that you've mentioned it I wouldn't bring it up otherwise where can we watch that if we wanted to watch Annie Hall is it available freely

31:09Bradley Whitford:I watched it on my own Blu-ray, but they are available for you. Can we come to yours? Yeah, you can come to Boy's house and watch it. That's actually true.

31:17Keri Russell:I'm surprised you like it. Hall, corridor.

31:19Kay:That's true. That's all good. I like it. That's nice. Nice. It was shit. He loved it because any mention of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too many halls in any hall. Don't like it. Long halls. Very upsetting.

31:31Allison Janney:What about you, James?

31:32Kay:Well, for me, it would always be something Star Trek-y, probably something kind of sci-fi. Take me to the stars. show me strange new worlds I think that because it's also very devoid his eyes light up yeah because it would be great whereas like Game of Thrones I enjoy but I don't think I'd want to be in that world whereas I think Star Trek

31:49Rufus Sewell:you could be captain of the Enterprise I would enjoy that of course he'd be the captain yeah I would like that I'm not sure if anyone else

31:57Bradley Whitford:would like it no probably not he's not going to be a minion

31:59Keri Russell:no

32:00Bradley Whitford:but the captain is often like a kind of self-absorbed ego maniac clip it up Darren

32:07Keri Russell:Wow.

32:08Kay:Yeah, I mean, it's fair. I mean, he threw you under the bus

32:11Keri Russell:within seconds of starting the pod. I think that's fair.

32:14Kay:Hey, if I were to counter that, I would simply say, I think you are referring more to the Kirk oeuvre and not the Picard oeuvre, who I much more resemble. I always have Kirk in my mind,

32:22Bradley Whitford:as you know, for the OG. And we're not having this discussion again. Even though it's not as good as Next Generation.

32:25Keri Russell:Definitely not. And to stop that from happening, I'm moving straight to Trudy, who says...

32:29Rufus Sewell:Trudy Styler, Sting's wife? Unfortunately not,

32:32Allison Janney:but an equally good Trudy, who says, I recently read a Guardian review of The Lowdown, starring Ethan Hawke, which has had very favourable reviews and a 98 % score on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, I know what this is going to be. Although the only review that matters is the pilot TV review, so I wondered if you had any... Boy, please let me finish. I've started, so I'll finish. If you had any idea of release date for the UK or do I need to book a long-haul flight in a scenario similar to The Pit? Many thanks, Trudy.

32:58Bradley Whitford:In a scenario similar to The Pit? There's no fucking sign of it whatsoever. I'm really excited about that show.

33:03Kay:But the question is why, because it's an FX show, so you'd think it would be on Disney+. and yeah here we are

33:07Bradley Whitford:it'll probably show up on Disney Plus unannounced in like next week or something but it is yeah I'm really really excited about that show love Ethan love Ethan Ethan Ethan Hawke Hawke

33:17Keri Russell:did a 90 minute

33:18Bradley Whitford:on stage Q &A with him once at BAFTA one of the highlights did you absolutely brilliant he was

33:22Allison Janney:did he fall asleep

33:23Bradley Whitford:no he was fully awake throughout the whole thing caffeinated yeah unlike Friars he was absolutely

33:29Allison Janney:okay well when you know just let Trudy know please

33:32Bradley Whitford:we'll let everyone know it will be a news story on this

33:35Rufus Sewell:very podcast okay fine

33:36Allison Janney:but truly first. Now a plea from Mel who says, I mean, the subject heading was absolutely begging him to stop. Now, who's the him in question?

33:44Kay:This is almost certainly me, isn't it? Correct. Okay.

33:47Allison Janney:Very rarely do I write in or comment, but I just had to take issue with James complaining about a celebrity traitors discussion on today's episode when he, and I love this expression, when he relentlessly bollocked on about Taylor Swift on the pilot and Empire pod for the past week. James, I adore you, but please no more. I cannot bear it. Taylor Swift content... Don't make me laugh. Taylor Swift content is at total saturation right now and I'm losing the will to live. I'm perfectly happy for long soliloquies about West Wing, Foundation, The Expanse. Absolutely here for it, in fact. But no more Taylor, please.

34:22Allison Janney:As penance, he must now talk about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms for at least the same amount of time as that ticket story.

34:28Kay:I would love to talk about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms for equally the same amount of time.

34:32Allison Janney:Yours at the end of my tether, Mel.

34:34Kay:Oh, I could bollock on about the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I mean, wait until she gets to the news section of Monday's podcast when we talk about the six-part behind-the-scenes Eras Tour documentary that's coming out in December.

34:45Keri Russell:Oh, Lord, why? Okay, fine. Sorry, Mel, I tried.

34:49Kay:But yeah, Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I obviously can't talk about the episodes that I have seen, but if people don't know what it is, I should say, it's a very different sort of like Game of Thrones thing. Because Game of Thrones, especially House of Dragons, it's grand, it's fantastical, it's kings and queens and thrones, games around thrones, and dragons and things. And this is not that at all. It's a really low-level kind of working class. It's about Dunk, Sir Duncan the Tall, who is a knight, and his squire, whose name is Egg. And they go to a tawny. Oh my God, amazing. And they do some jousting.

35:16Kay:So it's a really kind of low-level, in-the-mud kind of character-led story.

35:19Keri Russell:When you say low-level, is that a euphemism for low-budget?

35:23Kay:No, no, it's not. It's just, it's not attempting to be grand. It's attempting to be a very sort of like down-on-the-ground kind of earthy little story. If you've read the, this is not a spoiler, I've read the novellas there are three of them and there's a fourth one apparently in the making but don't hold your breath and yeah that's what they're about

35:39Bradley Whitford:So it's like the opposite of House of the Dragon which is spectacular Yes the complete opposite

35:42Kay:It's not about spectacle it's not about ground it's not about big stakes these are the lowest of stakes like Will Dunk get his dinner like that but He's got it I should say exactly but I should say that's not to say that it is in any way boring I really really love the novella and George R. R. Martin has said that that first novella of The Hedge Knight which his first season is based on is one of the favourite things he's ever written Oh, wow. Is there a country fair in it? Do you know what? There almost is. There's definitely the Westerosi equivalent of a country fair in that there's a local tourney.

36:11Oh, okay.

36:12Kay:There you go. Can't wait for the low stakes.

36:15Keri Russell:Okay, now a couple of people got in touch about, do you remember The Last Frontier? And I was like, get in touch if you also didn't see it coming. Well, everyone did see it coming. Particularly, yes, and I know. Stephen and Alistair unite in saying that they totally guessed the twist, which obviously I didn't see. I mean, I've recently watched something that has yet to come out. and again, I was a gush. Gush was flabber. Yeah, I was going to say that. And then in that moment, I thought, do you know what? I bet the rest of the world aren't.

36:41Rufus Sewell:You are quite easily flabber, aren't you? Yes, I am. To be fair, you are suffering from vertigo at the moment. Yeah, but if I'm being honest,

36:47Keri Russell:I think also I'm someone who goes along with the storytelling. I'm watching stuff often to decompress and not have to overthink stuff, so I think I just go with it. And I'm a storyteller's dream viewer, put it like that. It's another way of saying naive.

37:02Kay:I have something to say about The Last Frontier and I was going to save it for the regular podcast but fuck it I'm just going to drop it in here

37:07Allison Janney:okay

37:07Kay:so we put up a review of The Last Frontier it was reviewed by someone who was not me who watched the entire series and they gave it two stars they gave it two stars but what I thought was particularly interesting was a line in the review and it says this sets the stage for a criminal of the week showdown where US Marshal Frank Rennick ferrets out each remaining convict now hiding out in the sleepy town of Fairbanks pulpy network TV stars stakes led by a strong cast. And I was like, I said exactly those two things and you both pooed me.

37:38Keri Russell:Wait, are you saying they plagiarised? No,

37:39Kay:I'm saying great minds think alike. Who wrote it? James Dyer. This was David Opie, yes. James Dyer. No, yeah, David Opie wrote it. But it was interesting because my thing was, this to me felt like a network TV pilot that was setting up a Crim's of the Week format. And I said, but of course it won't be because it's on Apple and it's streaming. And yet apparently that's literally what it becomes. Oh no. A criminal of the week kind of episodic procedural.

38:00Bradley Whitford:That is disappointing.

38:01Kay:Which, and this is, I think, one of the reasons why he's given it two stars. And he says, in particular, he thought the first episode starts really strong and then the whole thing tails off. Well, again, I suppose it's an argument.

38:10Keri Russell:I mean, I did just watch the first episode. Yeah. Well, actually, that's contrary to what Stephen, our listener who wrote in, said. Because he really enjoyed it and thought the one-take fight scene in Snow was really well staged. And then he saw it was directed by Extraction's Sam Hargrave. And it all made sense. Can't wait to watch the rest. well Stephen will you still be excited after hearing James' online review we'll have to see get in touch well we had some feedback from Ella about Ed Gein you know Monster which we reviewed last week which I got particularly hit up about and actually someone wrote in to point out my no swearing had bad had stopped

38:44Bradley Whitford:I saw it was clipped up on the Instagram which bit? I think it's mostly me ranting about it unfortunately

38:51Keri Russell:as it should be she said I wasn't a fan of the Jeffrey Dahmer one and for more on the Boyd side of TV viewing. I really enjoyed this. Nazi stuff did go too far, but I think that's because I feel like there is the same boring stuff on TV at the moment. They're trying to be weird and kooky. I thought Charlie Hunnam's performance was fantastic and was so creepy. I meant to say, actually,

39:14Rufus Sewell:I was going to say this on the other podcast. Spoiling it left, right and centre, aren't we, on this one?

39:20Bradley Whitford:Because someone came up to me, actually, at a screening. Was it Charlie Hunnam? It wasn't Charlie Hunnam, no. a member of the public came up to me at a screening I was at I've been to film screens I know

39:30Allison Janney:every night

39:31Bradley Whitford:it's film festivals BAFTA every night there is something and yet looking so refreshed thank you yeah not true but this this brilliant woman we were chatting away she was really saying how much she liked the podcast and she was a delight but she said she thought it was funny that I was so against the monster Ed Gein story the series and I kind of had a mini rant about that as clipped up on our socials. And yet you sat through the whole thing, which is true. I have watched the whole eight episodes. Wow.

40:02Allison Janney:But you said you wanted to see how mad it got, you know, and how far they went.

40:06Bradley Whitford:I have to admit, I would admit one thing, as terrible as it is, the series, and it is by and large terrible, he is great. He's really good. Charlie Hunnam has done a, you know, he's committed wholeheartedly to recreating as close as possible from what is out there recorded, the sound of his voice, etc. The character of Ed Gein. So he is absolutely beyond reproach. Most of the cast have done an incredible job as well. But what I have to admit is that despite its terribleness, I did happily watch the whole thing. And I probably, you know, it's not boring. Like a more boring version of this story without all the big swings it takes.

40:45Bradley Whitford:Like having, you know, as I mentioned, Mindhunter, as I refer to, recreated at the moment. I probably would have been bored and not bothered so on one level it has succeeded in at least in ensnaring me for the whole thing I didn't need to watch the whole thing to confirm how absolutely terrible I think it is but it's one of those situations where I was compelled, suddenly about it compelled me to carry on watching

41:08Keri Russell:Dude, it's MSG food, right? You know it's not great for you but you can't help eat it

41:12Allison Janney:it's just moorish don't beat yourself up that's what I'm saying Right, for a message about Peacemaker Now it's from Stuart who says, Hi everyone, just a quick one to tell James he's wrong about the season two titles and song for Peacemaker.

41:26Kay:He's not, but carry on.

41:29Allison Janney:Talking about himself in third person, not unlike him. I wasn't immediately sold after episode one, but unlike James, I don't skip title sequences. So it's been growing on me every week and now I love it. Just sitting down to watch the finale, it's been a great season, I think.

41:43Kay:Yeah. Talk to me after you've seen the final episode.

41:45Allison Janney:Well, then he followed up but not about the finale. He said, Interestingly, the same thing happened with Pachinko, which has a different song over the season two opening credits that I originally wasn't sold on versus season one but grew to really like.

41:57Kay:I had it with The Wire as well. I think you become familiar with these title sequence songs, essentially the songs that you associate with shows. So when they mix up, sometimes it is quite jarring because you start to like them and you don't like it. So they have Tom Waits down in the hole but it's a different artist for each season of The Wire. And the first one is the Five Blind Boys of Alabama and it's great. and then I think it's actually the Tom Waits one that you go into in season two and again it was jarring I really like the other one but you know I guess you accommodate for these things it's great on you yeah I don't think this particular song for Peacemaker is just as good as the Wigwam song it's just not it's more downbeat like it doesn't have the same sort of energy like the dancing the choreography is still fun

42:41Bradley Whitford:but that's the thing I was going to say that it's much more important for song because it's accompanying an elaborate funny dance routine. That's the special thing about Peacemaker. Yes. You can talk about the different songs on The Wire and, you know, lots of other shows, but this is, it's much more insignificant, I think, in this case, because it is, it's accompanying a mad dance routine thing. And it was different, it was done differently. Which is the same with Pachinko. Pachinko has the dance routine thing, doesn't it?

43:06Kay:The first season of Peacemaker, they did it in, like, one day in, like, a school gym, and this time it was done on a soundstage. It was two days, there was a big LED screen. Like, it was a much bigger production the dance sequence was. But there's been some controversy about that dance sequence in season two. I don't know if you've heard this. So there is a bit where there are some arm movements which when seen in a certain light while squinting and possibly standing on your head could be seen to represent a swastika. Oh no. And the only reason why this has come up is because, well twofold really.

43:33Kay:One, because there is a plot turn at one point in this season which involves, shall we say, that particular symbol. And also because this was used as a dance in the video game Fortnite. so fortnight is a video game lots of like the you know the floss thing that's all was in fortnight this dance was in there and the dance was taken out because they were now worried that it was it had nazi connotations now james gunn has has addressed this on the record I do not know what you were talking about we definitely weren't he said because also the choreographer who choreographed this had never read any of the scripts she didn't know there was going to be any kind of nazi references in the show so there's no reason why unless she's it's just an unfortunate why would she throw in like like closet swastikas she wouldn't do that so I think people are reading symbolism and where there is none, but it caused a bit of a stir.

44:15Keri Russell:Oh dear.

44:16Kay:So there you go.

44:17Bradley Whitford:There was also that Nicole Kidman show, wasn't it? They did the dance routine,

44:19Rufus Sewell:do you remember? Yes. In the titles for that. The perfect couple. The perfect couple, yeah. It's definitely a little mini trend.

44:24Kay:And sometimes it's really cool. Like the first season of Peacemaker, I loved. I just think, also with the second season, because you've done it once, the kind of the joy and the surprise of it and the novelty of it is gone. So you kind of almost need to do something new. And look, maybe it's a personal taste, I just don't like the song. But yeah. Side note,

44:39Keri Russell:just to make it lighter from the swastika chat. Sure. Have you ever tried to floss? Because I can imagine you have.

44:45Kay:The actual dance? But not like to music on a dance floor or anything, but I've tried to see if I have the coordination to pull it off and I can report I do not. While doing a karaoke?

44:55Allison Janney:Yes. I flossed to my own karaoke. I'm just thinking it could be something for your TikTok.

45:01Kay:Yeah, that's true. I mean, four years late or whatever. Maybe I'll just try and do the Peacemaker dance.

45:05Allison Janney:Yes.

45:06Kay:Maybe the three of us should try and re-enact the Peacemaker dance. for a viral pilot TV social video. It's your thing. Okay, you can be eagerly. It'll be great. I don't know what that means,

45:15Allison Janney:but no. I'm here to tell you no. Okay, moving on to Dion and a message about Downton. They say, I've recently watched all six series of Downton Abbey and have had such a great time with it. Would love to know your thoughts on the series as a whole. I know you've mentioned it briefly, but would love a dedicated chat to one of the best shows ever and maybe do a From the Vault and watch the pilot episode. Keep up the great work from Dion from West Wales.

45:44Bradley Whitford:Well, I happen to know that both James and I are huge Downton fans. I know. All three of us. I know. Cheeky. But yeah, I think we've all watched.

45:53Rufus Sewell:I've watched every episode of Downton.

45:55Keri Russell:Yeah, same.

45:55Rufus Sewell:Every episode, every film,

45:57Kay:every Christmas special, all of it.

45:59Keri Russell:Yeah.

46:00Kay:So, I'll be honest, my attention wandered quite a lot in the final season. Oh, James. There were definitely episodes where I was heavily doing other things while watching it. I can't even remember what happened in the final season.

46:10Allison Janney:Were you painting the ceiling? Possibly, yeah. Were you pruning a tree?

46:14Kay:Entirely possible. I was definitely multitasking during the final season.

46:18Rufus Sewell:But that's not to say I didn't enjoy it. It is, yeah. I mean, yeah, I loved it.

46:22Bradley Whitford:It's just comfort watch. It's left a massive hole, I have to say. I was thinking about this the other day in ITV's schedule because they haven't really ever replaced it with anything. They have various attempts. Do you remember they did that unfinished, I want to say, Jane Austen?

46:35Allison Janney:No, it wasn't Austen. Oh, it's, yeah, it's Sanditon.

46:39Bradley Whitford:Sanditon. Yes. Sanditon, exactly. Yes, exactly. But there have been others as well. And when you think that, it is high for, like, I would say, three or four years, maybe this is about me Googling, double-checking, it was a Christmas special on IT on Christmas Day. It was a big deal. Big event. They had, like, feature-length big event. And ever since then, what have they had? They've had nothing to show on Christmas Day instead. You know, I think it's weird. It is incredible how big it got.

47:01Kay:We do need a new period draft. They've tried numerous times. I just think there's something quite... I mean, frankly, we're going to be reviewing one of them on Monday's show. We are, that's true. Which in many ways might be one of the closest they've come to doing something like that. I think even more so than The Gilded Age, which is obviously Julian Fellows. But there's something quite distinct about Downton, and it is partly... There's a coziness to it. And it's partly the characters, partly that very distinct, literal upstairs-downstairs dynamic that keeps it very enclosed within the abbey itself.

47:31Kay:And, you know, they venture out. Which is sensibility. Right, it's very British. they have a little country fair they'll go down to the shop to the little basket but it is very concerning

47:39Allison Janney:they don't say it in that voice by the way

47:40Bradley Whitford:I did hear someone ranting about it just the other day because the film is now available you should buy or rent I'm not advertising it but someone was ranting about it on the radio saying how infuriating it was that the biggest period drama of our time effectively is all about how well the so-much are treated by their masters and they live these lovely lives downstairs where everything was great and they were never exploited in any way. I was like, yeah, you're right, but I'm a socialist as the next person, but you can't take it seriously.

48:12Keri Russell:That's because you'd be upstairs.

48:15Bradley Whitford:But it was so much fun and it was so addictive and it didn't matter how ludicrous the politics of it were. That's what I'm saying.

48:24Allison Janney:Hello, the Dowager. He gave us the Dowager Countess.

48:27Bradley Whitford:Which was a massive deal. Dame Maggie Smith doesn't do any old shit. When she took that role, She was still doing brilliant films, doing brilliant plays and stuff. So yeah, it was a massive coup to get her.

48:37Allison Janney:A massive highlight is the Dowager Countess. And what's her name? The friend, the frenemy. Penelope Wilton. Yeah, they're dynamic. Just wonderful to watch unfold. Okay, now for a message from Sam, talking specifically about his friend's theory. And he says, I have a friend who has a hypothesis that all you need to do is watch the first and last episode of any series of The Boys, and you can understand the story based entirely on this. To that end, this completely banana crackers person does exactly this every time a new series of The Boys comes out. So my question isn't whether he's right or wrong.

49:11Allison Janney:The answer in my mind is clear. But firstly, are there any shows you think actually would work just as well if you only watched the first and last episode? Showrunners slam their heads on their desks. And secondly, have you ever watched a TV show in an unorthodox way for the sake of science? Huge fan of the pod. Back before it existed. I listened to Empire and was always disappointed there was nothing equivalent in quality for TV ever since you've been appointed listening all the best Sam

49:37Kay:I'm going to refer you to venerable TV critic Alan Sepinwall who literally had a podcast exclusively about this it was called Too Long Didn't Watch and he would have TV personalities on and they would watch the first episode and the last episode and then chat about it

49:53Allison Janney:they should do that for this podcast Too Long Didn't Listen

49:55Kay:I listened to the first pilot and then the last one before they got cancelled and that was it Yeah, exactly.

50:01Allison Janney:Interesting.

50:02Kay:Yeah. So, no, you should never do that. It's upsetting. But then you have to understand, I can't join a show midway through. I have to watch stuff from the beginning or it just upsets me.

50:12Allison Janney:Yeah, although I'm like that, but then I'll watch one episode too and then if I'm disinterested, I just won't finish it. I'm not a completionist in that way.

50:18Kay:Yeah, well, I will bail on things. I will bail.

50:21Allison Janney:Last two short, too many good shows.

50:22Kay:Evidence to the contrary as I get into my 7 ,000th episode of The Walking Dead with no signs of stopping. But, yeah, I am... Have you watched all those Walking Dead spinoffs and everything? No. Not every one. I've watched most of them. I have seen everything now except for Tales of the Walking Dead, because I have no interest in little anthology standalones. And I never finished Fear the Walking Dead, because I got to the point where I thought, I hate every single character in this show. There's not a single character I like, so I stopped watching. But I have been meaning to go back to it. Because, oh no, that's not true, I always liked Lenny James.

50:53Kay:Lenny James was fabulous, because he moved over from The Walking Dead to Fear the Walking Dead. But before he moved over, I hated everyone. He's in Mare of Kingsdown, you serious, isn't he? Do you know that? I did know he was in the series, yes. Although I've still never seen Mare of Kingsdown.

51:03Rufus Sewell:You've never seen any of it? Never seen the single... I've never seen it on this podcast and I've never gone back to it. I watched the first couple. I wonder why I did that. Because you're a diligent reviewer. Yeah, because you're a professional.

51:13Bradley Whitford:I have, happily, and much to James's fury, sometimes when we end up reviewing a second or even third season of something that I didn't finish the first season of, that has happened, where I've watched the first...

51:24Keri Russell:Yeah, but that's because you're a sicko as well. It's diligent. You'll just plow straight on into the second week and carry on watching.

51:29Bradley Whitford:You know, there'll be hopefully a recap, you know. I mean, I think basically foundation, let's face it. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean.

51:36Allison Janney:You're a monster. Well, funny you should say that, because I was going to say, I've actually drawn a close to the postbag. However, if you feel there's time, I'm prepared to read out some of the foundation questions that James egregiously ignored because he wanted to perv over Taylor Swift.

51:51Kay:I mean, that is true. We're actually at time for the podcast, but fuck it, we can run a bit long. Go on then.

51:56Allison Janney:Oh my God. okay

51:56Kay:by the way I know I don't know

51:58Allison Janney:because I wanted to be fair

51:59Kay:boy you should feel free to chip him well because I felt bad if we ask people

52:03Allison Janney:to email in and they've taken the time to do so I believe we should

52:06Kay:okay so what we're saying now is this is a mini foundation season 3 spoiler special Q &A

52:10Allison Janney:but before we begin I just want to say because I've just checked the post bag again and there's a new email from Jack Wright who's basically said last frontier yes I'm a dum-dum he doesn't say it like that but that's essentially it

52:21Rufus Sewell:I'm a dum-dum yeah

52:22Allison Janney:for not spotting the twist

52:23Rufus Sewell:are you calling him a dum-dum no

52:25Allison Janney:I'm saying he's that's the essence of his message yeah right okay I'm just picking them at random here this message is from Gwell's cool name he says is it just me or does brother Dawn seem to get the short end of the stick most seasons things were looking up this year I thought Cassian is it Cassian Bilton Cassian Bilton was great the first few episodes as a confident Dawn ready to take on the role of day as Lee Pace's day couldn't be asked I mean these are just words to me even more interesting when it turned out He was working with, oh my God. Gail Dornick. Yeah. And then the plan went...

52:59Kay:And the second foundation.

53:01Allison Janney:And then the plan went to shit. He got spaced and disappeared till the last couple of episodes where he turned up with crappy legs and did nothing.

53:07Kay:That's right. But crucially, the crappy legs mean that he doesn't have his nanites. Why not? We don't know. Very exciting.

53:13Allison Janney:No, I'm joking.

53:15Kay:He'll be back. He'll be back. Okay. He may be back as Lee Pace then. Are you confident? Yes. I'm confident he'll be back. He may be back as Lee Pace rather than as Cassian Bilton.

53:23Allison Janney:Okay, well, Jeffrey's chipping in says I still love the show but was anyone else a little bothered by how quick Gail transitioned from being the decent audience representative shocked and horrified by all the dark dealings around her to being the one making calculated pragmatic decisions causing the death of billions I know a lot of time has passed since series 2 but she was only awake for a couple of months of it how is she suddenly playing Harry in Demizel's

53:48Kay:Demizel

53:49Allison Janney:Demizel's game yeah

53:50Kay:she has become quite Machiavellian it has to be said she's willing to sacrificed an awful lot of pawns on the board to achieve her ends. I don't know that that's 100 % away from where she was as a character. She's certainly become more determined. But I guess she's had to take up Harry's mantle. Harry is no longer around to steer the ship. So she's stepping up. She's had a promotion. And that turns people into twats. Well, so true.

54:13Allison Janney:So we've heard. Sorry, I was giggling ahead of me just going to butcher some more names.

54:18Rufus Sewell:I'm looking forward to this.

54:19Allison Janney:Yeah, I know. It's awful. Josh says, I love season three, especially when Brother Dusk went batshit at the end. However, I call major bullshit on one plot point. How is it that Beta is the true mule? That is mental. Beta is the true mule. House is a show, it's ridiculous. Okay, that would mean she would have to be so powerful she can misdirect Gail after seeing who she really is back in season two when she was projecting her consciousness forward. Also, if you're going to kill one mule, why not kill two? especially after they tampered with Maggie's musical instrument. Why did Gail just run away?

54:53Allison Janney:Sorry, if you don't watch the show, I have to say it's really funny reading these out.

54:56Kay:The thing about season two, about reaching back, I don't think that's the case. I think what she saw was a confrontation with a person, and the person that she had a confrontation with was Pilo Aspect Mule. So she correctly foresaw the confrontation. What she didn't see was the power behind the throne who was actually pulling the strings. So I think it was just that her vision was slightly limited in perspective. But honestly, the simple answer to this is that Maggie is the true mule in the novella and they wanted to do something different and they thought she was an interesting choice to be the true mule.

55:28Kay:Well, Josh continues about the mule, Mulegate,

55:30Allison Janney:and he says, It felt disheartening that it was just her and a few fellow cohorts from the Second Foundation taking on the mule because the entire reason for Second Foundation was to create an army to take on the mule. Why didn't she have 100 people at her back to take down the mule? I mean, there's so many mentions of mule. You're loving the mule, aren't you?

55:46Kay:thank you for all your

55:46Allison Janney:hard work and geeky brilliance Josh

55:48Kay:that's a decent that's a decent point if they've got a little army of mentalics why didn't they bring them with them that seems like a massive missed opportunity I assume it was a logistical choice and their hand was forced I don't think it was like it was not like they planned it all out long in advance I think they had to pivot pivot at the last minute so that's probably the reason why but to the point I think we addressed this in the spoiler special why she suddenly ran out of the room I have no idea I thought that was really opaque storytelling and it really irritated me I hope we get an explanation in the last and let's be honest probably final season um but yeah that could have been much clearer

56:19Allison Janney:fingers crossed um isaac says with the way this season ended how likely do you think it will be for the next season to pick up the story right after it doesn't seem like they can do another huge time jump like they could previously won't we need to see what happens next with brother darkness and the real mule unlike gail dornick it seems unlikely these antagonists would go into cryo sleep at the same time jumping ahead so after their time would feel anticlimactic no keep up the good work

56:46Kay:I agree I don't think they can do a time jump for exactly that reason because you've got to explore what happens next with beta you've got to explore all of that I don't think they're suddenly going to stick her in a little sleeping chamber

56:59Allison Janney:Melissa says what the fuck no that's my actual question what the actual fuck also does all of this happen in the books I was not tempted to read them but now I kind of need to know what happens thanks for making the spoiler special happen you're the only people I know who watch this show warmly Melissa

57:15Kay:I think it's the when you say the books I think it's the novella there's a specific novella about the mule I can't remember what it's called but all this stuff is in the novella except the identity of the mule is slightly different I think a lot of this is in there it plays out differently I don't think in the novella and I haven't read it but my understanding of the novella is you never actually see the mule directly you hear about the mule the kind of the fake mule as it were but you don't actually meet the fake mule

57:37Allison Janney:my god I want a Moscow mule now just to get through this Gay's loving this yeah I am to be fair I was annoyed last week when you were assisting Poddy that's why I didn't do it but now I've chosen to do it and it's quite it's quite amusing to read them out and also it's given James a lot of pleasure

57:54Bradley Whitford:you know we've got coming up that you could do a similar thing for go on is the witchers back soon it is

57:59Rufus Sewell:I mean that bewilders me in a similar way it's now the time to mention that I'm doing a spoiler interview with showrunner Lauren Schmidt history of course you are

58:07Keri Russell:because you're the original Witcher twitcher

58:09Bradley Whitford:even more than Foundation because the thing about the Witcher is it's seemingly I find bewildering and complicated but also it's got the most ludicrous character names of all like every single character it's like oh mate I'm just gonna

58:23Allison Janney:I mean that's gonna be

58:24Bradley Whitford:a bloodbath of names okay fine and James is gonna love it

58:28Allison Janney:of course he will we are just here for his amusement and pleasure yeah okay last one and it's from Steve Cram not Steve Cram I'm only a few episodes into this season of Foundation but already the Mule character is reminding me a lot of the Travis Fimmel character Desmond Hart from Dune Prophecy am I the only one seeing this and if not for those that have read the original text are they similar in those two is finally a case where Dune didn't come first

58:52Kay:I mean it's an interesting question I think there's similarities there but obviously and I'm assuming Steve maybe knows this maybe doesn't know this so the character of Paul Atreides is based on the Mule so the idea of like Timothy Chalamet's character in Dune, that character, or that whole story when Frank Herbert wrote Dune, was the idea was what would happen if the mule was the protagonist of the story. So Paul Atreides is essentially the mule. So while Desmond in Dune Prophecy, he's got elements of both characters in there. And maybe it is a kind of a, maybe it's a subconscious or maybe it's a deliberate reference to the mule, but it's, certainly the mule is more of a Paul character.

59:27Rufus Sewell:So how much longer before Dune was Foundation published? I can't remember the exact years, but I think we're relatively

59:33Kay:close together. But But yeah, Foundation came first.

59:38Allison Janney:Okay. Do you know what? I'm happy we did that, actually, because it's got a chunk of the post bag dealt with now. And I feel happy about that.

59:44Kay:And you feel like we never need to discuss Foundation again. So that's the Foundation monkey off your back.

59:49Allison Janney:Yes, it is. No, I like to keep on top of the post bag, and I feel like, yeah, that's good. Good work, guys. Well done.

59:55Kay:Fabulous. Thank you very much for indulging me. Right, okay, that's it for this episode of Pilot Plus. do join us on Monday for the next episode of the regular podcast when we will be talking about The Ridge, which is a TV show, The Foresight, which is also a TV show, and guess what? Leonard and Hungry Paul, both of which are one TV show.

1:00:15Allison Janney:Why do you feel the need to explain? Is this a...

1:00:17Kay:What, the TV shows? Yeah. In the same way that Boyd likes to explain what year these things are showing, I like to explain what format it is. I do love that. This is a television show. We're also going to have Harlan Coburn and Bill Nighy

1:00:28Allison Janney:on the podcast,

1:00:29Kay:which is very, very exciting.

1:00:31Allison Janney:Bloody hell, over-delivering.

1:00:32Kay:That's right. So, you know, rock on.

1:00:35Allison Janney:Yeah, I'm excited about this.

1:00:36Kay:Okay, we're done. Pilot out.