PLUS The Last Frontier

22:18Yes, okay, so we have got a very bulging postbag this week. And there's been, so we've got a lot. So I'm going to try and get through as many as possible. But just to say, if I don't read your message out today, it'll be next week. Now, James, there was a lot of foundation messages. Did you put those in your Foundation spoiler special?

22:37Kay:I forgot. And I meant to do an apology on this. So we didn't end up answering any of the... And there's so many. Any of the listener questions for Foundation. I am so sorry about that. And the reason why we didn't end up answering any of those was because of the whole Taylor Swift situation. We got kicked out of the studio before we finished. We literally had to wrap up. You sacrificed the listeners for Taylor Swift. So I'm so sorry. So what we can try and do is, at the very end of this episode, we'll go through some of them. and you and Boyd can chip in as well and they'll be fun. Okay. I'm opting out of that just because I haven't watched Foundation and I don't know how fun that's going to be for me.

23:11Kay:I think we're all going to chat about it and it's going to be fun. I don't think we are. We're going to have a Foundation Q &A special at the end of this episode. I think actually what I was going to suggest is either you do it on your own and read them out or you and Helen because there's a lot of questions here that actually deserve to have the, you know, affection. We'll do them at the end. It'd be great. I'm not. Okay. So we're starting with HK Phil who got in touch to say, Dear Pilot Gang, can we have a new regular segment where Steph Sealand slowly and sensually reads out erotic song lyrics, please?

23:37Or maybe some sort of ASMR. That was magical. What was that about?

23:42Kay:Oh, yeah. So what's actually really funny about this is so we were discussing the lyrics to... What's the name of the song, Woody? Relax. Frankie Says Relax, yes. It's just called Relax, by the way. That was actually a Friends reference. Oh, okay. T-shirt. No? Do you remember the Frankie Says Relax? Anyway, it doesn't matter. Oh, yeah. so relax Frankie Goes to Hollywood and Steph read out the explicit lyrics in a monotone she's always doing that no one can listen to this but Darren bless him our editor overlaid it over the song I know which was very entertaining we don't have a PRS licence so we cannot play it on the show I sent it to Steph and she was delighted but it was great yes okay next now for a very smart listener who in the subject heading put James is wrong instantly I clicked on it yeah guy he says hi Copilot and thanks for fab podding subject was to make sure my question was chosen what a clever man blatant blatant abuse of the system it worked, I instantly went to it I felt so basic when I clicked on it he instared me anyway, so Guy says you often talk about an aesthetic or an Apple TV sheen but how many programs are made by streamer or just bought?

24:46Netflix badge, lots of bought shows as originals I know lots of programs have lots of Apple products on other streamers were they hoping to be bought by Apple? Guy, brackets question about empty suitcase and coffee cups that generated a good debated answer oh yeah I remember when we discussed the empty cups that was from Guy originally he's just yes he's just noting what his other question was I see

25:06Kay:yes I see this is an interesting question Netflix do 100 % acquire stuff and put it on and Sky in fact do the same thing and they acquire some stuff which are badged at Sky Originals but were obviously acquisitions I don't know if Apple do that most of Apple shows seem to be made like commissioned and paid for and produced by Apple. Some of their foreign language stuff, I guess, could be acquisition, but I don't think so. To the best of my knowledge, it's all original content. I mean, they don't have a huge amount of content. And I think one of the reasons for that is they do produce it all themselves.

25:39Kay:I don't think they... But what content they have is good content. Well, exactly, it is. You know I'm an Apple gal. So I don't think they necessarily acquire third-party content for their service. Boydie, does that sound right to you? Yeah, I mean, a lot is made by production companies. Of course, yeah. I'm just saying, because you said Apple makes it. They're not doing it in-house. Yeah, technically. They're the ones controlling the purse strings, right? No, you're right, you're right. I'm just, in case anyone's being pedantic. But yeah, I think generally they commission stuff and it gets delivered.

26:11Whereas you're right, Netflix will show something. I mean, Netflix has got a whole massive library of things that have been on other channels. Yeah, but they have a huge amount of stuff they mix up. I remember at one point in the, I would say, kind of three or four years ago, do you remember there was a whole thing about People claimed that Netflix had its own visual style and people would claim that Netflix insisted that when people make stuff for them, particularly scripted shows, that they used certain cameras. Oh, really? Yeah. That's sort of like flies in the face of that whole thing of regional, like homegrown storytelling, you know, like being organic to where it was made.

26:48If they've got a diktat that everything has to be filmed in a certain way. Well, I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I'm not sure if it, you know, you can still, the script and the dialogue and the characters and the situation can be however you want. Yeah, but if it all has to look a certain way. Yeah, I mean, maybe you've got a point there. But I'm not sure if that was ever, I'm not sure if that was actually true, by the way. But this was widely, I remember there was a big article about it in one of the big kind of showbiz TV variety or something like that. But now I feel like, I'm not sure, I don't think that's true at all of Netflix anymore because you get lots of different visual styles, etc.

27:22But I do think it feels more that Apple is the one that gets everyone to create this sheen, as we talked about. It may just be in our heads, by the way, I think, because sometimes there's this stuff on other shows and I think, oh, that could be an aperture because of the way it's shot. And every now and then there's an Apple show that isn't particularly sheeny, to use a coin of word. So it definitely feels that way. And this does feel like, to me, another example of it, The Last Frontier. I mean, it's difficult because it is set in Alaska, which is very icy cold. Atmospheric. Part of the whole Apple look for me is a kind of icy cold quality to it, which I think this is perfect for.

27:57But who knows if it actually is happening or if it's all in my head. I don't know. A conundrum.

28:01Kay:It's worth noting, we're coming at this from a very UK-centric point of view. I believe certainly from a film perspective, there are some third-party films, but they're only available in the US, to the best of my knowledge. I don't think we get them here in the UK. Because I remember Mad Max, Fury Road, The Prestige, and a bunch of other things, Wolf of Wall Street, were available on the service in the US. Certainly someone told me they were. On Apple TV? I believe so, yeah. But not here in the UK. And also, I'll tell you what does happen, actually. I think you're right about... The other thing about films, more often it happens that a film gets made and they join in, almost like a very late stage, Apple, and they go, right, we will...

28:35I think it happened with the Spike Lee film, right? Higher to lower, or lower to high, which I thought it was. Highest to lowest, yeah. Yeah, highest to lowest. God, I'm really... Like my mum or something. Anyway, I think that was like... He was making that and it had a backup, but then I think quite late in the day I think Apple got in and said we'll show it in cinemas for a week but we want to put it on Apple Plus and that added to the budget etc so that kind of thing happens more with films I think yeah okay well back to the TV podcast sorry guy there's that was not our jurisdiction

29:08Kay:Boydie no I know yes I'm going to bring out the J word that's going to be my new thing and actually Sort of Connected is a message from Rachel about product placements and she says check out the finale of Platonic season 2 for some egregious product placement. P.S. it's still brilliant and I recommend it to anyone that likes Seth Rogen. I've watched it and I didn't actually notice it but then as we've, you know. The product placement is an interesting one. Actually a listener wrote in under the veil of anonymity to talk about this a little bit saying that they worked in production of shows slash films and saying that what's quite interesting about product placement is a lot of it is just added after the fact.

29:45Kay:Like it's CG'd in. Like it's not. So they'll sell the product placement and then it will be added to the show. and not just scripted stuff, like unscripted stuff as well. Oh, yeah. You'll get placement of, shall we say, products in kitchens and things like that, which have been paid for, and it wasn't shot there. It's just been superimposed afterwards to fulfill the product placement deal. Yeah, I knew that. Which is kind of wild, isn't it? That's blowing my mind. And also, I see potential. Now, does anyone have a particular brand of coffee by my seats when we're recording this? Please do get in touch.

30:14I'm available to be bought like that. Or any cakes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's get... Well, pat now, pull your finger out. Yeah, exactly. Come out of the administration if you want to. If you want product placement on this podcast,

30:22Kay:just send us some cakes. That's how it works. I'm down for that. All right, thanks, Rachel, for facilitating that conversation, which will hopefully, will reap some rewards. Right, now for a message from Jo about, oh, yes, a show that I've actually watched the first episode of. I'm not sure if you guys have. She says, hey, favourite podcast hosts, I'm not 100 % sure whether you reviewed Nine Bodies in a Mexican Morgue, as I may have missed it, but wanted to recommend it as an antidote to the general grimness to the world around us. It's totally OTT and sheer escapism and has lost vibes with a shot of Agatha Christie who done it.

30:55Thoroughly bingeable and a breath of fresh air. Dive in if you haven't seen it. From long-term listener, first-time emailer, Joe. Yeah, we didn't review on the show, partly because it was a busy week, I think, and it's on a Saturday night on BBC One. These weekend shows are difficult for us sometimes because it means they're embargoed. We can't review them even though they're within a week. It's very complicated. and so we kind of review it sometimes just after it started but when it's on a Saturday night it feels like it's even more of a delay and it's been on for a couple of days but anyway I watched the first episode it'd be interesting it's got quite a lot in common hasn't it with The Last Frontier because it opens with a plane crash a smaller plane a moose no moose no moose yet no moose side I've only watched episode one but it's fun actually I enjoyed it it's very entertaining and it's got a good cast Siobhan McSweeney's in it Eric McCormack yeah yeah it is good check it out we would have reviewed if it had been a normal week.

31:46But we didn't get a chance. Believe it or not, there's another show as well which is going out on UK TV which also begins with the explosion in an underground jail, a secret underground jail and all the criminals are unleashed there in the wilderness. There's a lot of criminals unleashed in the wilderness shows happening at the moment. It makes me scared. I even get... That's called The Hunting Party. I don't know whether to give you an insight into this. Go on. You know when you see the police vans, like the prison vans? You think they're coming for you? No, but I just find like, I find all of that just quite scary.

32:17Oh, you think the prisoners will rebel and like they did in Line of Duty? That's a brilliant Line of Duty, isn't there? Well, maybe an element of that but also like, once I saw a show and you actually see what they're, it's just like imagining the, I don't know. Imagining what? Life in prison and being transported around with that, you know, like,

32:33Kay:Kate's just concerned that sooner or later the long arm of the law will catch up with her. Do you know what's my, it's one of my top three fears being, Well, you know, I will say. No, send to prison for something I haven't done. Stop doing crimes, Kate. Stop doing crimes and they won't... If I've done the crime, I'll do the time. You're not afraid of being sent to prison for all the crimes you have committed? No, that'll be fine because that's justice. Right, it's just for stuff you haven't done. Yeah, and I do not want to be in one of those vans that transport you because it's such a narrow little space.

32:56Kay:But also think of Steph because she'll get a great feature out of it. Oh yeah, and I'd give her a first-person testimonial so she'll be able to sell it for copies. Live from prison, it's Kate Ribeiro. And then I'll get her to read it out in her seductive class. Would you dial in and do the podcast from inside? Yeah, but I think there's only a certain amount of time you can spend on the phone, right? Really? I mean, that would make this bloody epic podcast record shorter for a start. People have done prison-based podcasts. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember one winning awards, probably. They were more awards than we do.

33:23But how is that allowed when crime shouldn't pay? You know, like, as in, like, because if they won an award, surely that's... I don't know what the payment situation is, but, I mean, I think they're allowed to do all kinds of stuff. Well, just to let you know, If I was in that scenario, I would expect payment. I'm not doing it for free. I'm not using it on my one call a week for you guys. We'll bear that in mind when you get sent to prison. Yeah, I want to be able to pull some luxuries in there. Okay, anyway, skipping away from my horror, my nightmares, now to Peacemaker, not me, Dan. He says, a message from Dan who says, Hi Pod, I hope Kay has enjoyed her digital detox.

33:57I'm picturing it like the retreat flea bag went on. My question is, has Peacemaker convinced you to reverse ferry? yet. I've been uneasy with the new intro dance from the start and now it seems like that might have been the intention. The movements are just off-kilter and don't seem to fit the music. A general sense of things not being quite right. Plus the squared lights making patterns in the background. Gunn has been playing with us from the start. I'll leave it to James to explain the Fortnite controversy. Don't feel like you have to James. Or maybe I'm overthinking it and the first season's intro was so unexpected and spectacular any follow-up wouldn't hit those highs.

34:31Thanks for the great work. As always, Dan.

34:33Kay:it's more for me the song itself the song just feels a bit flat whereas I think the first season one that kind of do you really wanna well I forget who the artist is but it's very kind of 80s cock rock banger like it was just great and it was so absurd did you say cock rock cock rock yeah it's cock rock it kind of it just worked whereas this one feels slightly more subdued and I just thought it was a bit of a disappointing track the dance itself the choreography I had no issue with but again it wasn't surprising like the first one was so they were all going to have I would have just kept with the same one personally but you know noted also we got another message from jamo who's also about peacemaker and specifically for you james he said i heard boyd and james poo-pooing the peacemaker season two intro on the most recent pilot can i recommend that james watches a few of these and so he sent a link to some shorts which i haven't clicked on but i sent the link to james you did um he says can he recommends you watch them and then gracefully apologize i'm obsessed with them at the moment and he said ps i had to look up the email address.

35:29Is it pilot at pilot TV pod? No, is it at pilot or is it at pilot pod TV pod blah blah blah. Yeah. Different iterations basically. Sorry I cocked that up but essentially what he's saying is it's still not very clear. How was it supposed to change our minds?

35:43Kay:The videos in question, so the one that was sent over was the beginning of Smile 2, a horror film. It cuts to the Peacemaker title sequence and his point was it goes with any film. You can cut the Peacemaker title sequence into anything after an event happens. but that was probably true of season one as well yeah okay so has it changed your mind basically no apology forthcoming I'm so sorry although that was in itself an apology I apologise for not apologising aplosure Michael has got in touch about Savant and he says hi guys just listened to this week's Monday episode of Pilot and your discussion of the now how are we saying that Savant the Savant yeah being pulled from the schedule interesting though your conversation was about that especially the James and Boyd insert it seems to me you missed the likely real reason for Apple's decision.

36:29Oh, interesting. In the midst of an escalation in this kind of violence in the US, Trump and his people are immediately pointing the finger at, in vote commas, extreme left Antifa terrorists, when invariably the culprits are always right-leaning, if even politically motivated at all. The problem with The Savants is that the show is entirely about the real-world problem of right-wing violence, which directly contradicts the scapegoating that Trump's administration tries every time. cheerio, Michael. What a brilliant sign-off, Michael. Sorry.

36:59Kay:Cheerio. Cheerio. That's very Lord Flashheart, isn't it? Yeah, but I love it. Delivering a truth bomb and then cheerio. I think we did touch on that, to be fair. Well. Not in detail, but I think we said that... Well, I may have touched it in more detail than you allowed me to. To be fair, this is true. So, Boydie may or may not have gone on a rant about this, and I may or may not have cut it out. I believe I made that exact point. So, absolutely, I may well be in full agreeance with you. Yeah, Boydie did make that point, but I said it was too political, so I cut it out. but I think we touched on the fact that is it a sensitivity or is it in reaction to the Trump administration we definitely discussed that as a theme I totally agree with that Michael, absolutely what I would say though is that I still think that a lot of it's almost accidental whether something gets picked up or not in the culture the wider culture at the moment so for example I think actually on The Rest is Entertainment one of them mentioned how they'd been to an event did you hear this this week?

37:58I think it was in this week's episode I think Richard Osman said he'd been to an event which was like you know an on stage interview and one of the famous guests had said something really controversial massively controversial but no one picked up on it the audience didn't no one from the audience posted anything about it it's like sometimes a thing in our culture can go by the way so just because no one's particularly paid much attention to it and my feeling about the savant is they could have shown it without any fanfare just stuck to their original plan of whatever level of promotion they had for it not particularly a huge one for me judging by the build up to when it went out before they delayed it and no one would have no one would have paid much attention to it particularly and critics would have reviewed it how they wanted to I just don't and Donald Trump would have made any So they're saying they threw the baby out with the bathwater I'm saying I think they were worried about something that wasn't necessarily anything to be scared of Yeah it was almost like they're pre-empting in a response to something that probably, by all accounts, wouldn't have happened.

38:54Unlike the Jimmy Kimmel situation, which was a huge, that was instantly, because it was such a maverick thing to happen, and everyone making decisions to suspend him indefinitely, well, indefinitely, in that, do you remember, they used, that was instantly massive. Whereas, I just don't think the savant would have happened like that at all if they had just aired it. Kimmel was taking the heat. Yeah, I mean, in a way. But that's my point. But I do agree totally with the listeners. Michael. Michael. as well. Well, actually, that leads me, the Kimmel stuff leads me nicely onto my next email. I obviously want to go straight to Barb.

39:28You know, I love Barb. Justice for Barb. Yeah, who's in Maryland, and she got in touch. So, she said, hello, Esteem Pod. What a surprise and a treat that last pod was for me. I may have to clip all the positivity and play it back when things get darker here in the US. Thanks, James, for including the email address in the show notes, both sweet and sensible of you. She says, we need more advanced notification of Kay's holidays to time our emails nice of you to call me queen bob unless it was sarcastic but i think we all bow down to k bob of course i wasn't being sarcastic you are the queen one queen recognizing another um anyway she says oh she mentions about kimmel actually so she said um as you probably know by now the j the jimmy kimmel affair has much to do with parent company disney capitulating as anything else i'm liking the boycotts by the acting community and subscribers although i don't know if it's enough to change anything and then she has some comments to make so first of all she talked about Downton Abbey because she said it's TV related and that she just thinks it's the most delightful movie going experience of the year and perhaps the decade.

40:31Steady. She said I can't think of any other TV series that has had such a satisfying transition to film maybe Star Trek but that seems in a category of its all of its own certainly the X-Files and Twin Peaks didn't transition to film as successfully in her opinion. True. And then for the listener who got in touch Do you remember a listener got in touch about historical TV? And so Barb's got her suggestion, so I hope that listener's listening. She says, for Roman history, there's the Spartacus series on stars in the stadium. Which is coming back very soon. Yes, and she said it's apparently getting a sequel series on Netflix.

41:02Kay:Yeah, it is. That obviously had a troubled production because the main actor in that, whose name escapes me at the moment, got cancer. And so they stopped production at the end of the first season. And so the second season, instead of being a second season, became a prequel season with different cast because they were hoping that he would get better. He tragically then died. So then when they did pick up the story, they recast the main character of Spartacus. And then this is now continuing. Yes, you're right. Sorry to hear that. And she says, chronologically, it leads nicely into HBO's Rome and then to her favourite, I, Claudius.

41:35Oh yeah, I, Claudius. She said, for the Tudors, I'm partial to the 1976 Wives of Henry VII and Glenda Jackson's Elizabeth. Oh yeah, very good. And then she said, There's also the Philippa Gregory series on the War of the Roses, White Queen, White Princess, Spanish Princess, which I kind of like in spite of the inaccuracies. There's also the Hollow Crown series, if you don't mind Shakespeare, and also the Pillars of the Earth, great cast. And she finishes by saying yes to Foundation and Dexter Resurrection, spoiler specials. And lastly, I'm glad you like that. I call myself Barb, okay?

42:07Kay:That was it. It was Dexter Resurrection, wasn't it, Boyle, that you had promised to watch for, I don't know if it was last week or the week before the show. and then I forgot about it. We never specified a week. Oh, Bob, look what you started now. Have you watched it now? No. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. But you should absolutely do that and then we can have a Dexter spoiler chat. Oh, poor Boyd. He's been busy with Gavin and Stacey. Yeah, he's fucking hosted two Gavin and Stacey shows in one day. So just, yeah. Are we going to talk about that tomorrow when we call the main show? We'll talk about the main show.

42:36But hashtag pray for Boyd and his energy levels. Thanks. Good message, Bob, and good suggestions in terms of historical TV shows. Yeah, really good. really good yeah but it must be sounds like my generation to bring out I Claudius and the wives of Henry VIII well I wouldn't want to speculate which generation but she is an all round legend so now from Barb to Bruce and he says Springsteen yes indeed excellent I can't wait for that yeah I'm seeing you next week with Sam White yeah and also with a Q &A with Jeremy Ellen White yeah Jess will be there let me know how it goes take pictures Bruce says hi pod people in the world of cinema the director is everything but in TV the role gets mainly overlooked are they just guns for hire and told to point and shoot the camera or are we not giving them enough credit and too much to the showrunner thanks for everything Bruce

43:24Kay:that's an interesting question and I think I think we've talked about this a little bit before it does vary from show to show because you do get some shows where it is one director all the way through the series and they definitely have a creative input into how it's created I think and you know and how sorry let me get that again Darren and they definitely have a creative input into how the show goes forward. I think generally speaking, the lead creative, certainly on American TV, is traditionally the quote-unquote showrunner, which is an American system, although we do, I guess, sometimes have that here as well.

43:53Kay:But you have like an executive producer who is, for all accounts, they're the big cheese, the buck stops with them, they are maybe pushing the story forward or guiding it, and they're running the writer's room or doing whatever it is they're doing. I'm so confused about the different, like, Well, because an executive producer role can mean almost anything on a film. It can mean someone who's genuinely an important part of it, or sometimes they can be emeritus titles, which don't really mean anything. Whereas when you have an EP on a TV show, in theory, you feel like, certainly the perception is that they have more weight.

44:18But the listeners, right, in cinema, the director is the creative lead. You know, often in TV, it's the writer who's the creative lead. Whereas writers in films often get short shrift. Right, yeah. This is a big generalisation, by the way.

44:31Kay:Of course, because there'll always be outliers to this. Famously, Citizen Kane, you know, is a good example of the extent to which Wilson Wells is responsible for its brilliance or whether the writer, you know. So anyway, that's a film. Shouldn't be mentioning it. Yes. But the question is about film on TV, right? So I think it's legitimate. Well, okay, on this occasion. Anyway, but in TV, often if it's a writer slash showrunner, like say Russell D. Davis is a good example. Russell D. Davis is a showrunner effectively and became showrunner of Doctor Who and he was the lead writer. He'd write most of the episodes of a season and then there'd be others that he would sort out.

45:08but he was in charge of the whole machine, if you like, even though he never directed any of it at all. It's not often here that happens, right? It's quite, more and more, I would say, something here. Yeah, yeah, more and more people have described themselves as showrunners in interviews I do for British shows. Oh, now you've put me on the spot. Like America, like Shonda, like, I just, I don't recall loads of UK talent being able to have that weight. Obviously, Russell's in a...

45:31Kay:But then also you're talking slightly different things because you get almost like auteur showrunners, like Aaron Sorkin on The West Wing, like the guy who made Vikings, for example, who wrote every single episode of the show. I think Sean Hogan considers herself to be showrunner of Bad Sisters. So yeah, honestly, there are more and more of them. It's getting more prevalent. There are shows here that often I'm surprised when you meet people and they just start talking about the writer's room and you never even realise there was a writer's room or anything. More and more happening with British shows.

46:00See, I thought there were hardly any writer's rooms. No, it's getting scary. I mean, it's still not compared to America where everything, pretty much apart from The White Lotus which is entirely as we know written and directed by Mike White but everything else has writers' rooms it's a huge big thing like Succession like Succession yeah but anyway what I'm saying is that it's definitely in TV it's more open to either having a director slash showrunner in charge or a writer slash showrunner or sometimes a writer director showrunner like in the Mike White case so it's definitely more complicated I think with TV in general both here and in the US whereas in America whereas films unless it's written and directed by someone who's obviously the author because it's used to be the author of the film.

46:41But it gets complicated with film when it's not written by the director and the director is just directing it. Thank you. That's the end of my TED Talk.

46:48Kay:Isn't it also partly to do with production schedules? Because with a TV show, my understanding generally is that they'll be split into blocks a lot of the time. And one director will do one block, another director will do another block. And they'll be doing pre-production and stuff on all of these things simultaneously. Because to have a single director doing the whole series is a Herculean amount of work. It does happen. It absolutely does happen. But a lot of times, it's sometimes easier, I think, to break it into sections, give different director stuff, and then obviously work can be going on simultaneously to kind of truncate the production schedule slightly.

47:18Kay:Yeah, that's absolutely true. Very good. Hopefully that's answered your question, Bruce. And finally, I'm going to end on this one. So we've had a lot of emails about Alien Earth, but I'm just going to start with this. Why I wasn't involved in the... Are they all from Boyd? ...discussions? Are they literally all from Boyd? They're from, like, Floyd Stilton. I see I see no so I'm just going to end with this one but next week I will cover off some more so it's from Jack hi Jack who says dear K-Lan Tutani Proddy James Corporation and Boyd Cavalier presumably you guys these are all Alien Earth references fine okay as a rabid subscriber when my last question was read out on this most prestigious of podcasts I thought my work on this earth to be done and considered age 36 and early retirement however my correspondence was regarding needle drops and I specifically referenced Noah Hawley as someone whose soundtracks consistently tickled my biscuit.

48:05By the way, the reason I'm reading this all out is because it did amuse me, the writing of the Zima. Okay. And so, if there was ever a time to further discuss the man and his work, it's right now. My feelings about Alien Earth align with the teams and broader critical consensus in general. There's always been a vitamin-starved soggy little corner of Reddit where toxic fans feast on strawberry laces in an orgy of nostalgia, calling everyone involved talentless, while screaming about how everything should always be the same forever, but it's objectively excellent. Bloody hell. I know. There's more.

48:31I wouldn't dare criticize the people on Reddit by the way yeah I know don't I'll be dangled jawed and overjoyed if it isn't in my top three shows of the year alongside Severance and White Lotus and Fargo it's one of my favourite dramas ever created with both Hawley has achieved the borderline impossible taking a beloved IP yuck the obituary of which nobody wants to see tarnished though that boat sailed seven films ago for Alien and spinning brand new lore around it in a way which is as wholly original as it is deferential in essence they are both distressingly good in a way that they have no right to be.

49:04And while I'm not sure even Noah Hawley watched beyond season two of Legion, you have to admire the way he swung for the fences with another coveted franchise improvising around X-Men like a jazz musician with a nuclear code. Wow. So if James is able to free up some space between rollercoaster rides, my question is two-pronged. Right, here we are. Number one, what shows outside the Hawleyverse took similar risks with delicate source material, managing to succeed against all expectations. And conversely, what shows, either adaptions or originals, were you thrilled about on paper but fell staggeringly short of their potential in your professional, not-so-humble opinions?

49:45Basically, what shows are great when they shouldn't have been and rubbish when they could have been? And who would you like to fix them? And he finishes by saying, I believe it was Asimov who said, you guys are the greatest things to happen to public transport since diazepam, and may you continue to grind away your debts in outer space broadcasting back to Earth long after it's been consumed in flames circa 2027. First, Jack. What comes to mind for me is that, do you remember when Paramount Plus first launched and they had all these TV spinoffs of film IP things like they did American Gigolo which was fine.

50:20They did a Grease one which was terrible. Do you remember? The Ladies of Grease, whatever it was called. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it was absolutely shockingly terrible they did Fatal Attraction which was kind of okay but pointless really so those are I think the biggest one good memory boys yeah thank you I know you think I'm senile but every now and then I should pull it out of a bag and I think the Grease one was absolutely that was an example of the worst one big old dud yeah because I remember at the time thinking of all the ideas they've got American Gigolo I think is it's not one of my favourite films but I do really like it it's insane but that was surprisingly okay I thought that's an amazing poster quote surprisingly okay boy Hilton not even surprisingly great surprisingly okay Fatal Attraction I'm actually thinking looking back on it now I think it was ended up being pretty pointless and not great either and pretty bad as well so yeah those come to mind particularly but I agree with Alien Earth they did an absolutely brilliant job in general I wasn't I had issues with the last couple of episodes, but, you know, it would definitely be up there in my best of the year as well, I think.

51:32And I know it will be in his. Well, save your views on the last few episodes because, like I said, there's quite a few more emails about Alienware, so maybe we can have a little chat about it. Well, also, once people have had a chance to listen to James's spoiler special episodes, it's not featuring me as well. Oh, boy, it's... My heart bleeds for you, but you're destined for better things, is the truth of it. Oh, am I? Yes. It says Miss Tarot card reader here. Well, you've just done the Gavin and Stacey talk. Oh, that, oh, okay. Yeah, less we forget. Look how quickly he forgets these massive achievements.

51:58I'm destined for great things. Yes, I know. Are you doing some more of those? Yeah, exactly. So next week you're destined for more. Okay, I'm doing a couple in January, that's true. Cardiff, Swansea, Gavin Stacey, live show, look it up. Oh, you're getting Swansea? Oh my God, amazing.

52:10Kay:Yeah. I think Noah Hawley's genius because I think that what he is is he's not cowed by sacred cows. That's two uses of the word cow. But he is uncowed by sacred cows because he takes things like Fargo, which is a Coen Brothers movie that is hugely beloved and then turns it into an anthology series but puts his own spin on it and literally has the devil in the first season. He's done wild stuff with that franchise. What he did with Legion, as they mentioned, is a completely mad take on X-Men that works and doesn't work but it is a big swing. And I like the fact that even though Alien has such a rabid fan base, he just didn't care.

52:47Kay:And he's like, no, I'm going to do what I want to do with it and I'm going to go full Peter Pan and that's what I'm going to do with it. And you know what? Fair play to him. And when I interviewed him, he discussed this. He was like, you know, if I'm going to fail, I'd rather fail doing that, like doing something ambitious and interesting rather than trying to do what everyone else has done and just it not being quite as good. Full clarity for someone who hasn't watched it, not actual Peter Pan. No, but that's the theme of the whole thing. Like the Lost Boys, Peter Pan, Wendy. Oh, right. Yeah, like it's the theme of the show.

53:13Kay:They literally read excerpts from Peter Pan. Yeah, the characters are named after the Lost Boys. Yeah, no, I remember now. Yeah, duh. I didn't realise. Oh, and yes. I remember the first episode. I think one of the clunkiest elements of the whole show but you know we let it pass it doesn't ruin it in any way but it is pretty and I think that's great and I think it's very easy for people to play safe with these things and think oh no people like it so they'll like this because it's more of the same but it's a bigger risk isn't it and it's a big risk with an IP where there's a lot of money invested in it which is why I like it so much I'm surprised you would feel like this because I thought you'd be cranky when something deviates you know what I mean like I thought you'd be a purist no not really because also because it's a franchise that has been all over the place and so much tedious stuff has happened to it.

53:55Kay:So I'd say it is a franchise which is beloved, but there have been many more misses than hits in that franchise. So I don't think there's anything to be gained by cleaving to what's gone before, because most of it hasn't been very good. And I think he's certainly inspired by Alien and Aliens, which are the two great films from that franchise. Alien being the best. No, but also charts his own path. And he does something very different with it. And I think that's what was needed. Because also, why would you try and emulate near perfection? These are fantastic. There's no... Nothing is to be gained by trying to redo those.

54:28Kay:Whereas doing your own thing, I think, you know, there's riches to be gained by doing that. I mean, quite a lot of money. Riches to be gained. Literal riches. Yeah. If you're making a show for Hulu slash Disney+. Hulu. But like, look at the MCU, for example. The MCU have taken some bold swings and they've taken some very, very not bold swings. And obviously, WandaVision wasn't designed to be the first MCU TV show. That was supposed to be Falcon and the Winter Soldier. But the fact that it did go first was brilliant for them because this incredibly ambitious, wildly left field, huge swing for the fences was the first thing out the gate and it raised the bar very high.

55:02Kay:You're like, oh my God, this is incredible. Like, these shows are going to be amazing and some of them are very good and some of them are not. It kind of backfired, didn't it? Because that was such a big surprise. And then we went into Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Yes. And then we went back to Benal. Which was regrettable. And that is still, to my mind, the best show they've ever done. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. But that's an incredibly ambitious bit of television. Love it. There you go. I'm having a rare moment where I'm just looking at you when you were just getting into it and thinking, oh, actually, I'm quite happy to be back.

55:26Kay:Oh, see, I thought that this was just a cunning way because I now realise you've run the clock out without allowing me to answer the many foundation questions we were saving for the end of the show. I was just saying that. I mean, I would urge you to take me more seriously. We should save some space for that next week. You should, on your own. Listen, no one has said it, but I think that was a fantastic postbag this week. So thank you for getting in touch. please do still send in your emails. James is now going to recite the email address. It is pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. Yes, commit it to your memory, have it tattooed.

55:54I'd love to hear from you. Because, yeah, this week has been a real doozy.

55:59Kay:Fabulous. Right, that's it for this week's show. We'll be back on Monday with the regular episode in which we will be reviewing Monster, a belated review of Monster on Netflix, which you couldn't see before now, Riot Women, we're going to be doing on the BBC, which is the Sally Wainwright series, and The Iris Affair, which is on Sky, starring Tom Hollander and Niamh Algarh. Sorry. I just say Sky now because I just don't want to get it wrong. And I can't ask Boydie because he'll just make something up. No, I should tell you what. It's the rare moment that I actually knew which Sky channel it was.

56:26I don't know. Are you in the pocket of Big Sky? No, I'm not at all. It's just like I wrote it down just a mere few hours ago.

56:32Kay:Well, Ajani Salmon and Ali Hughes will be on next week's show as well to talk about Dreaming Whilst Black, season two. It's very exciting. And Sally Wainwright is joining us because, okay, you spoke to Sally about Rightwoman, didn't you? Yes, I was so excited to speak to her and she was on top form. Well, we will look forward to that. Until then, pilots out.