PLUS The Sandman, and Squid Game spoiler discussion

18:27Kay:No, I don't know. I mean, will you watch the rest of them, do you think? I think so, yeah. Because if there's stuff that's, you know, the diner episode, the serial killer convention, the death one. There's good stuff. Those were really good, and it's beautifully made, by the way. And those, maybe less CGI heavy than this one. This is one, all the worlds... All the stuff that happens in the Dreaming is very... Yeah, whereas they were more rooted to reality, and that made it easier to enjoy, I think. So hopefully there will be more episodes rooted to reality that I can enjoy in this first tranche of episodes in the rather bewildering...

19:02Kay:Yeah, it's an interesting rollout they've got there. ...way of rolling them out, yeah. But no, I'm open to it. Good, good. Well, I enjoyed it lots. The Sandman on Netflix on the 3rd of July, which is the, let me, looks at what, today, which is the today. The today. Yeah, the first tranche of this arrives today, so make of it what you will. Kay's back in person now, so we have an in-person postbag.

19:29Ladies and gentlemen, it's Miss Kay versus the postbag.

19:45Yes, and can I just tell you, we've had so many responses about the Buffy question that you posed. So it's going to be Buffy heavy, but I thought I would start with a couple of non-Buffy ones in case people weren't as interested. So we start with Scott, who turns out he's a theatre critic, Boyd. And you were talking about musicals last week. What's his name? Scott. Scott, second name? Matthew. Yeah, I know Scott. He's a great guy. He comes to our live events.

20:11Kay:Oh, really? Was he responding to Boyd's massive antipathy towards musical theatre? Well, we shall see now. Because he says, right, musicals based on TV shows, I have thoughts. I'm a theatre critic, it's a hazard of the job. I'll keep it snappy, unlike James and Boyd's recent epic TV movie debate, which lasted longer than most podcasts. Loose and rambling again, Boydy. He said to me, you had a lucky escape when you missed it. Musical theatre isn't one thing. It's a medium, not a genre. For every jazz hands extravaganza, there's a quiet, weird little gem. Just like TV, there are lots of formats, styles and wildly varying quality.

20:47The campy musical episodes of Buffy or Strange New Worlds pay tribute to only a small sliver of what's available. And Boyd isn't completely wrong that some musicals only have a few standout songs. But A, that's not always the case, and B, it isn't a great metric by which to judge a whole show. TV musical crossovers aren't rare, but cropping up more than you'd expect. Only Fools and Horses got the Chaz and Dave treatment, turning multiple episode storylines into an evening's worth of plot. The late Kate Mellor's adapted her ITV drama Fat Friends into a stage musical. Kate Mellor, just to say sorry.

21:22Oh, did I say Kate? Yeah, that's fine. I can't even get my own name right. Yeah, exactly. It's an all-time good one. That's a low point. That is a low point. The only reason I interjected, because I know you'd want me to, on behalf of K's everywhere. Yeah, of course. Kate Ribeiro over here oh my god reading is difficult The Great British Bake Off the musical turned the famous tent into a West End rom-com I forgot about that a Fringe Theatre Come Dine With Me musical weirdly loved it dance show Rambit Dance in Peaky Blinders the redemption of Thomas Shelby happened some people liked it more than I did an honourable mention to not a TV adaptation Make Good about the post office scandal which toured village halls last year and found a different way to emphasise the lives and communities that suffered.

22:06So yes, TV musicals... I think there's also an Acorn Antiques one. Is there? I think so. Although I'm beginning to imagine it because I think Scott would have mentioned it, but yeah, I think there was. Anyway, yeah. Oh yeah, it's a very good point. So yes, TV musicals exist, often broad, safe and commercial. Big shows cost big money. But that's not the whole picture. Personally, I'm drawn to the smaller, quirkier ones with real stories and hearts. One I genuinely love to see, It's a Sin. Richie and Co's lives during the AIDS crisis retold on stage with a book by Russell T. Davis and either iconic 80s tracks or a synthy new score, Yes Please.

22:41The marriage of comedy and tragedy that TV series managed would work so well in theatres. Anyway, enough from me. Roll on August the 8th. I'll be there praying Pilot the Musical stays firmly fictional, but I'll have my reviewer's notebook on standby just in case.

22:56Kay:Boy, it's already warming up for his solo. Yeah. Good point, so. Oh, I mean, he's right, of course, yeah. I mean, I have my, I'll use the word antipathy, it's too strong, but my general non-fondness for musicals. Nonchalance. Lack of fondness for musicals in general is totally simplistic and childish. And based on, you know, my experiences of seeing shows. Funny enough, one of my favourite musical theatre moments was I saw Xanadu the musical in New York on Broadway. and I absolutely loved it. But the reason I loved it particularly is because it's a spoof of the whole form itself and incorporates that into its stupid story about a roller disco based on the ELO slash Olivia Newton-John songs.

23:48So, yeah, I mean, he's absolutely right. Bottom line, yeah, of course, yeah. I've never heard... Also, I don't think I've ever spoken to Russell T. Davis or I don't think I've even heard him talk about whether he about musicals and whether he likes musicals and whether he's ever been tempted to turn one of his shows into musicals so that's interesting well next time he speaks to him you say Scott suggests that and then maybe Scott gets the light of the pie and then for me reading it out maybe I'll also get the light of the pie who knows I'm now Scott's agent we're all exec producers of this musical in Scott's head Sandman the musical that's what I'm holding on for I mean that could well have happened if it not worked for recent developments moving on right Darren says how much I enjoy hearing you three bicker like siblings.

24:32Yours is my only subscription podcast and worth every penny. Also loving the old school use of email as I'm not on any social media and so this is my first time getting in touch. Yes. See? Emails. It works. I have a question and a comment. Question. What childhood program, if any, have you rewatched and enjoyed as much, but perhaps for different reasons? I loved Blake's Seven as a 10-year-old and it started connecting me with my tribe as I went into high school. but by tribe I mean nerds. I re-watched the whole series recently and was able to look past the effects and realise how well the characters are drawn and how ahead of its time it was in terms of gender roles.

25:10Thoroughly enjoyed the re-watch. So yeah, that's the question. So have you re-watched anything from childhood?

25:19Kay:Interesting. Not specifically. Blake 7 I obviously did watch as a child and the only episode I remember, I remember one with a gun and a mirror and it involves shooting your own reflection, but I can't remember the exact, and one where there was a shape-shifty character who turned into some weird little furry alien that could breathe chlorine. What? This is almost all I remember about Blake 7. At least I think it was Blake 7. It could have been anything at this point. But the only shows that I think I watched as a child that I've revisited will be things like Fawlty Towers and Blackadder, maybe Red Dwarf, maybe Star Trek, Next Generation.

25:55Kay:I guess that still qualifies as a childhood thing. and those things definitely still hold up. Like, I've never revisited, I have a lot of fond memories for, you know, children's TV from, you know, Mysterious Cities of Gold to Stick of the Dump to, you know, Battle of the Planets, Terrorhawks, all of that stuff. Grainchill joke. Definitely not Grainchill. But also, I've never revisited any of them. But then a lot of these things, are they even available? Is Terrorhawks, for example, available anywhere? I have no idea. I wouldn't have thought so. No, I don't know. Because I, but we're in this weird situation now, aren't we, where, Like, physical media has essentially, not gone, but it's certainly, like, I would say the majority of people probably don't use or maybe even have a DVD player.

26:39I gave mine away at the weekend. Right.

26:41Kay:I mean, that's shocking, but sure. But if you don't have a DVD player, so you can't go to, like, Computer Exchange and pick up an old Terrahawks DVD if one was ever released. It's almost certainly not on a streaming service. So, you know, how would you get down with Zelda and the cubes and they did the little Noughts and Crosses thing at the end of every episode. I think Blake 7 itself is available, isn't it? Because I'm sure I've seen, I'm sure I kind of accidentally almost tuned into an episode fairly recently. Yeah, it's on Apple TV. I'm just looking it up. Yeah, you can buy it on Apple TV at least.

27:17But I think it's been on Gold or some channel like that previously. And anyway, because Blake 7 was absolutely very prominent in my childhood. I was watching it, you know, 10, 11, I think. I absolutely loved it.

27:31Kay:It's a good example because people always say the same thing. The thing about Blake 7, they say about you, or you do this a lot. Do I? As you go on about the special effects and the shoddiness of the other thing. But when you're 10 and you're watching, you don't really notice that at all. All you notice is the brilliant characters. Well, you say that, James, were you noticing it at that? I was up four years old, gang. I've got to be honest, the compositing is shocking in this show. Yeah, precocious little shit. to that, I'm sure he was. But, so I used to really enjoy Blake's 7, I love Blake's 7.

28:00In fact, I interviewed Paul Darrow, who was in Blake's 7, for a, we used to, in Heat, back page, we used to do like, a where are they now type of interview, and I, and he was an absolute delight, he was brilliant, he was so proud of, of being part of Blake's 7. I loved it, and they keep, there's been talk of Blake's 7 reboot, Blake's 8? for years, Blake's 8, 9, 10, whatever, but, for some reason, it's never, but I think it's such an obvious thing to happen, good format, such a good idea. So full of interesting ideas that should definitely do that. And yeah, my answer would be Blake's not just because the correspondent brought it up and I can't think of anything else.

28:37Just as a PSA, Terrorhawks is available to buy, not to stream, but to buy on Apple or Amazon. So you can get it digitally. Okay. So it is not lost. Yeah, exactly that. Most things, most are available, aren't they, to buy on Amazon at least? A lot of them are, yeah. A lot of these are weird and wonderful things. You can either buy them on Apple or Amazon.

28:55Kay:So even if you can't stream them, you can shell out for them. The second part of Darren's correspondence said a comment. I've loved Hacks through the first three seasons, but was surprised by your effusive enjoyment of the recent season. I think Boyd said he felt it was the best season. I nearly gave up on it halfway through, as it was just five episodes of Deborah being relentlessly mean to Ava. Very little humour and none of the beautiful character moments we got from the first three seasons. It seemed that all the growth we got from Deborah over the previous seasons disappeared and then instantly all came back again when Debra refused to do what Bob Lipka was asking.

29:29Interested to understand more of why Boyd loved it so much. Ah, well, that's a very good point because what I would say is that it didn't make it into my top ten of the year so far. And that's because I got a little bit frustrated halfway through. It gets a bit repetitive. It does get repetitive this season. I included it, but I also... I think it's because of my nostalgic like of it and I just thought it was well-written. Oh, it's still a great show. Don't get me wrong. like a mediocre episode of Hacks is still one of the best things on TV. So that's why I think it was hovering. It was definitely bubbling under my top 10 list, but it didn't make it in precisely because I do think it got repetitive, particularly in that relationship and between the two of them.

30:09But in the end, I still loved it. For me, part of the reason why this season was even more interesting for me is this is totally in my wheelhouse. I love stuff about the behind. I'm obsessed with American talk shows. I'm just obsessed with them. So, you know, the whole history of Letterman and Leno and Conan O 'Brien. I know that all of these things that have gone on for years. The American talk show, late night talk show world is its own extraordinary soap opera and melodrama that's been going on for decades. And this tapped in, this season particularly, tapped into that because she's getting this historic role.

30:44It's so rare for a woman to get this role as the host of one of those shows. And there's so many references to all those other shows that I loved all that. So I'm predisposed almost to liking this more than ever because of that whole core subject matter of this season. Didn't that answer that? Right, now on to our Buffy section.

31:05Kay:Okay. Right, so we had a lot of people get in touch. For anyone who doesn't remember, last week, was it, or the week before, we said that we would watch an episode of Buffy because neither Boyd or I had watched any. And James was going to unilaterally decide, and then I decided, no, actually, let's throw it open to our listeners. So here are the suggestions. Right, we start with Adam Clark, who says, I'd stay clear of story-heavy eps and go for earlier seasons too. So, for example, season two, episode three, School Hard, because of Spike, or series two, episode six, Halloween, just because it's a lot of fun.

31:41That's the first round of suggestions. James is zoned out. Now, Sally in Edinburgh says, Unfortunately, some of my favourite episodes, The Gift becoming Tabula Ressa, is that how you say it? Yes. Are too spoilerific or layered in law to be suitable. I also agree with James, sorry everyone, that episodes like The Body will not be as impactful without spending hours getting to know the characters. So Sally's suggestions are School Hard, a bit like Adam. Okay. Hush, Series 4, Episode 10, a genuinely scary episode which still has some humour, which shows the ambitious and creative nature of the show.

32:16Okay. By the way, you're going to be really paying attention because ultimately at the end of this long list, you're going to decide. Yeah, okay.

32:23Kay:And I'm not going to be recapping. I'm just going to go, okay, you're now an expert. Why don't you tell us? So you can't do what you usually do, which is check your emails, yeah? Right, so zone in very much so. Okay, fine. It's a zone in. It's a zone in. It's a zone in. James, Russell says, The Prom, Series 3, Episode 20. Innocence, Season 2, Episode 14. Do you know what these episodes are? Only some of them, not all of them by now. I was going to say, just the title. It might not necessarily... Yeah. Oh, well, I can go on IMDb. Yeah, you should have done some basic research for it. I'm not saying it's on you.

32:54No, no, no, you don't have to say it. I'm saying... He's just letting these titles go by. Oh, yeah, I know what that one is. I know what that one is. I'm writing them down. I'm writing them down. Halloween also got another nom, Season 2, Episode 6. And Hush, Series 4, Episode 10. By the way, I know I'm alternating between saying series and season. That's fine.

33:10Kay:Hush is a good one. Okay. Fine. Mike. I like... Mike was very succinct. By the way, some of these messages were longer, but just for brevity, I'll have to edit. But Mike said, I would go with passion, core cast, a chance for hope, and great ending. Okay. Holly says, I love the idea of doing a Buffy ep as part of the From the Vault, because it always bemuses me when I'm reminded that Boyd, who's basically seen everything, hasn't watched something of such cultural significance. I started to re-watch... By the way, can I just say, because in your introduction to this, you said I had never watched any.

33:41I have watched some episodes of Buffy. Just random ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just not, I've never said I haven't ever watched it. It's just I haven't watched many. I would say a handful at most. Oh, I think, well, as you've just noted, Holly also thinks you haven't seen any. So I don't know if you've misled the listeners at some point. Others have said before. Why are you lying about your Buffy version?

34:01Kay:Yeah, boy. Exposed. Okay, right. Fraud Hilton. Yeah, he's not a Buffy version as suspected. It's just me who hasn't seen Buffy. Right. Anyway, Holly says, I started a rewatch myself a few months ago, coincidentally before the announcement of the reboot, having not seen it in years. I'm really enjoying it, and if I were to recommend a quintessential but high-quality episode, I maybe go for Earshot in season three. It's by Jane Espenson, and incidentally you can't go far wrong with any eps by her. Yeah, she's a renowned writer of this kind of genre stuff. She said, I'd add though that I think Hush would also be a good shout.

34:39I understand James's reservation, but having seen it again recently, the thing that makes it unique to other episodes, no spoilers, actually happens later in the runtime than I was expecting. It's slightly more serialised than something like Earshot, but not insurmountably so. Oh, so that's another vote for Hush. Joe. Oh, this is... Right, Joe is communicating for his girlfriend, basically, because he says, my girlfriend is the biggest Buffy fan you'll ever likely to meet. She once ranked every episode from least to most favourite as she was bored and worked out her statistically favourite season.

35:10when I heard you were after suggestions for a Buffy episode there was no one better qualified this is what she had to say after 20 minutes thinking about it she said I challenge anyone to watch season 4's episode of episode 4 fear itself and not fall in love with the show that is a big claim okay I'm tempted to go with that because she's such a big Buffy fan in fact Jo hasn't said her name that is remiss but yeah Jo's girlfriend thank you Carmen says there are fantastic episodes like The Body, Hush and Once More with Feeling that stand out as some of the best episodes of TV ever created but they do stand slightly outside of what Buffy was week to week.

35:49For a more typical episode I would suggest Series 2, Episode 3, School Hard. That's come up a lot. Yeah, it combines all the things that made the first few seasons of Buffy great. The impossible situation Buffy faces balancing her obligations as the chosen one with being a 16 year old high school girl. There is some brilliant Scooby action with our extended team being both comedic and also endlessly supportive to Buffy, as well as the usual vampire prophecy apocalypse MacGuffin.

36:16Kay:I think that's the introduction of Spike that episode is. I think that's his first one. Okay, and lastly, Shauna has her say, and she says, my vote to introduce newbies to Buffy would be the season two double episode combo, sorry, K and Boyd, of Surprise and Innocence. Not wanting to give away any spoilers, it has classic Buffy and Angel moments. Key character beats, think Giles and Buffy in the car, Typical Whedon dialogue slash comedy What does that do? That's a quote Heartbreak and one of the strongest metaphors For growing up the show has to offer It also has Spike and Drew To really introduce you to the classic Buffy characters And then she can They continue and say If you're looking for more standalone episodes Prophecy Girl has some of those heartbreaking scenes But with some ropey season one soundtrack effects And band candy is fun and throwaway double gang double gang land is also very funny and then actually they've listed some more but I'm just you know I've lost steam okay I've lost interest I've lost no but she just no but they end by saying I think surprise slash innocence which they mentioned in the first paragraph does it best sticks to the high school years and is early enough to avoid massive spoilers if someone wants to start from the beginning right and that is it that is the end of the Buffy section okay if my if my sort of air poll if my sense of popularity is correct.

37:40Kay:We had Fear Itself, Surprise Slash Innocence, Earshot, Passion, Halloween, The Prom, Hush, which came up a few times Hush did, but I think the one that was most mentioned sounded to me like it was school hard. Yes, definitely. Does that sound right to you? Yeah, 100%. It does, maybe, but I would also say that I do stand with Jo's girlfriend. Just her on her own, outweighing all of the others. Well, yeah. She does sound like an expert. She does sound like an expert. I will give you that. But, you know, we have to go with the stats. What season is the school one from? School Hard is season two. Fear Itself is season four.

38:17Let's flip a coin.

38:19Kay:Do you have a coin? No, Boyd must. He must have a gold nugget somewhere. Yeah, like a Kruger ant. You didn't make yourselves laugh at that one. Let's do the fucking school one. School Hard. Boyd is a mental coin toss. Sorry, Jo's girlfriend. And we've opted for Schoolhard. Yes, apologies to Jo's girlfriend, who is an expert but has been roundly ignored by Boyd. So Schoolhard is... It's called democracy. Schoolhard is... Flash is dictatorship. We will watch Schoolhard for next week's Pilot Plus, and you two can feedback on whether or not you actually like Buffy. Okay. Okay, brilliant. I'm glad we've established that.

38:55Kay:And I believe that is the end of this week's postbag. If you would like to submit your questions, queries, or feedback onto our democratic process, please do send them in to pilottv at empiremagazine.com. Finally this week, we have our spoiler section and we are going to talk about Season 3 of Squid Game. Sound the alarm.

39:19Kay:Boydie, it's Squid Game time. Now, you and I have, I believe now, completed the Squid Game adventure. Yes. Okay, here's not, that's fine. You can just listen to this. And I've got two words I want to say to you, Boydie. Yeah. Kate Blanchett. Yes. Good, yes. So, the final moments of the whole saga, season three, take place in Los Angeles. Yeah. Where the bad guy, the, what's he called? The front man. The front man, thank you, of the whole Squid Game enterprise. He looks out of his window and sees a woman who you kind of recognize Although, funnily enough, I have to say, because she had her hair kind of swept back in a kind of different style to how she would usually have it, I didn't instantly like, I was going, who is that?

40:11Is that Cate Blanchett? Yes, it's Cate Blanchett. Pops up, Cate. Is she good? You look surprised. Well, all she has to do is play the game that is the game that entices people. She's a recruiter. She's a recruiter. What's it called, this flipping... I don't remember what it's called,

40:29Kay:but it's one where you have to throw your little square on the other person's square and flip it over. Exactly. Tiddlywinks, no. And she's trying to recruit a guy, a kind of schlubby guy, who she then whacks in the face, because it's part of the cult. Because he's losing, so she's smacking him in the face. Yeah. And so basically the implication is that the Squid Game carries on, at the very least in America, and they have their own version of the Squid Game, possibly internationally. and of course it also touches upon the announcement a while ago that David Fincher would be involved in creating Squid Game, an American version of the show anyway along with the Gillian Flynn I think of Gone Girl fame and which was a project I was excited about anyway David Fincher doing, it was like a kind of perfect match in the way for him to be doing this is definitely in his world, it's the kind of thing he likes doing so it was a complete startling shock that the final moments of the whole saga are suddenly an arrival of a Hollywood A-lister.

41:31And I was thinking afterwards, if somebody should have had a name badge or something, yes, I am really Cate Blanchett. You're not imagining it. You're trying to work out who I am. Because if you've been like Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt, I don't know, there's certain, could have been every single person watching. I think some people watching would go, oh, who's that? I recognise it, but I'm not quite... Some people, yeah. I mean, not... Who are these people? Bearing in mind Squid Game is the biggest show in Netflix history and literally hundreds of millions of people. Among those hundreds of millions, we were going, I think I recognise her, but I'm not 100 % sure.

42:01I'm guaranteeing you. For you, it didn't feel stunty? Oh, it totally felt stunty. Massively stunty. But as I've said before about stunty things, I think in relation to Doctor Who, when I alienated half the audience, I don't mind a stunt. I mean, it was the whole thing. Of course it was a stunt. I don't think the creator of the show would deny it was a stunt. but it did open up a whole new I mean the implication is we're going to see certainly aren't going to see more of Squid Game one way or another albeit not in its South Korean setting that the an island a mysterious island in this in that area is from these three seasons of the show but yeah

42:37Kay:noting that it wasn't a direct sort of tee up to sort of Fincher's proposed American thing no it was and the idea which I didn't actually get from watching it because I assumed oh the Squid Game is international like it's everywhere which of course that is the idea but the idea and Fang Dong-hyuk has said this in an interview that the front man seeing the recruiter there in America is supposed to be coincidence. He didn't know she was going to be there. It's just he's looked and he's seen her and he's quite surprised to see her there. Yes. But also not that surprised. But recognises her. He knows what she is.

43:05I don't think he knows her but he knows what she's doing.

43:08Kay:Yeah. But he's not a part of the American Squid Game. He's not overseeing it. Like she doesn't work for him. She's never met him. They exchange a glance. Like he knows who she is and she I think guesses that he's connected to it. But the idea is that... Blanchett. That's exactly, he says Galadriel. The Squid Game in Korea has now wound up, or been blown up, but Squid Game as an entity persists. That's the idea, and I think, you know, it kind of goes on to his late-stage capitalism satire, which this whole show is kind of based upon, that, you know, we've tied up this story in Seoul, but a lot of this commentary and a lot of these problems persist around the world, and therefore the Squid Games continue.

43:46Yeah, that's true, which is a good point, because while it is a bit of stunt casting, It also does say something thematically about the show's whole raison d 'etre and theme of the disastrous inhumanity of lay capitalism.

43:59Kay:Yes. And while we're talking about the English-speaking characters, which of course she is technically one, the only criticism I would have about this particular series... Series three? Yeah, is the VIPs. And we had this issue with season one as well. The VIPs are terrible. They are. And partly, I hate to say it, and I don't never like to say this, but the acting is shocking. Now, we have to address this, yeah. Yeah. It's weird. We talked about it in season one. Yeah. And it's still, and it's almost even more underlined and magnified this season because you almost, well, to my mind, you see more of them.

44:39You do, yeah. They're providing a running commentary, quite a meta running commentary, and they'll say things, they'll refer to things watching the games that people have said about the show itself. Yes. So, you know, partly you've got that kind of tricksiness that the creator, in an amusing way, is providing. So, yeah. But they're so stilted in their line delivery that it's insane. And I wonder, and I think we said this about season one, whether it's because the writer-director, creator of the whole thing, is Korean and therefore couldn't recognize a bad, in English performance for some reason or whether he's actually encouraged them to be slightly off kilter and fake and you know what they remind I don't know if I said this for season one they reminded me of have you seen Eyes Wide Shut the Stanley Kubrick film

45:32Kay:yes when they because they've all got these masks on these Eyes Wide Shut style masks which by the way don't really conceal what they look like either you'd instantly recognise if you knew one of those people it's like a half face covering why have you got a peacock mask on yeah right it'll be like that but it really reminded me One for the live show it really reminded me of the kind of pre-orgy sequence in Eyes Wide Shut when all these people are wearing masks and they're chatting away to each other in a really stilted way and I almost half felt is this a tribute in some way to Eyes Wide Shut because the masks are really similar to the masks in Eyes Wide Shut and just their intonation and their stiltedness it's like those characters in Eyes Wide Shut so I have multiple questions the stiltedness actually sounds like if you switch over to the English language track for the kind of dub, it's a bit stilted in the same way the dub voiceover sounds.

46:23Kay:I don't think that's deliberate. But I wonder whether, so, and this is something that this show fascinates me, this show has a very specific tone to it. And I don't know how much of it is cultural. I don't watch a great deal of Korean television to know. There's a stilted quality to this line delivery. And the performances in this show are quite heightened and over the top. Yeah, that's true. I think it's a deliberate choice because it is a satire. It is a black comedy. But also, it's extremely bleak in its subject matter. And I wonder whether you can quite get away with doing something this bleak unless you introduce absurdity and comedy and a heightened tone to it because it makes it more palatable.

47:01Kay:And part of that, I think, is the livery. It's the costumes. It's the primary colours. It's the nursery rhymes and all of that sort of stuff. But it does have an almost fantastical feel to it. And I think the performances enhance that. And also, some of the characters in this, we might get onto this, some of the supporting roles in the characters, some of the players, are almost caricatured in their heightened stupidity. Yeah, that's true. Like, they don't behave like actual human beings would. They are so stupid. Except the lead. Yeah, Gi-hun. Yeah, Lee Jung-jae. Who is, in season three, having failed in his rebellion and feeling guilty that loads of people have been slaughtered as a result, is almost mute in the first few episodes.

47:40and then is really intense and kind of realistic. He's almost in a different show to everyone else. He is always in a different show. So at first I was thinking, well, the Observers are in a different show to everyone else. Actually, I think you're right. I think it's just him who's been so naturalistic and believable. Whereas everyone else is wildly over the top and mental. I mean, it's absolutely the case. It's exactly right. And also, when it got to the actual games, I was reminded that, and I think it was the same in season one, that everyone gets hysterical. The characters get hysterical, which is understandable, and they are in an insane situation where they could be killed any minute now.

48:16But they're all shouting and screaming at each other. All of them. Yeah, they're all yelling at the same time. So then you're like, oh, okay, actually, when it cuts to the observers or whoever speaking English in that stilted way, it's not that insane because everyone else is going bonkers.

48:31Kay:The intonation that they have sounds very similar to the intonation of the Korean characters. Again, it's very weird and a little bit off kilter. But again, because we don't speak Korean, I think it's difficult for us. But I think the other characters that are in quotes realistic and not too overtook are the cop. Yeah, everything outside the game. Yeah, that whole strand, all those strands. Although that one guy, again, the stupid one, the guy was, he's caricatures. Yeah, that's true. That is true. He is unbelievable. Hilarious when he's running around the police station trying to make a phone call.

49:00Completely.

49:01Kay:It's a really interesting mishmash. It's so odd. The tone is so weird. But I do think the tone does make it palatable in a way. it wouldn't be otherwise. I think you'd struggle with it because when we get into this one, because, look, we call this season three. This isn't reality the second part of season two. Let's not fuck about. It really is a direct continuation of that. But the hide-and-seek game, which this begins with, it reminds you why this show is so good, but also so brutal and hard. It's really nasty. Really nasty, but also kind of funny. And you feel a bit guilty laughing because it's so horrible.

49:35Well, and then we should say, the extraordinary arrival of the baby.

49:39Kay:The baby! Oh, my God! The baby, the CGI baby, which I have to say supplants American snipers having the most upsetting child on screen. Yeah. Well, the arrival of the baby adds a whole different level of sick and twistedness for me. Because literally at one point, I was thinking, how far are they going to go with this baby? The baby's dangling over the edge of the abyss. But remember the guys get that? They're all about to, let's kill the child. they're going to go and literally murder the baby. I do think, though, that it's a bit of a... I've seen criticism of bringing the baby in, but I thought it was a masterstroke because if anything, it's going to underline the absolute obscenity.

50:18The greed and the errors. And of course, they're all men. This is interesting. I haven't seen many... I've read a few, you know, kind of reviews of the finale and a few recap-type pieces. But none of them seem to mention that all of the... Apart from the baby, all of the people in the final are men. Yeah, when it gets down to the end. It's a bunch of fucking idiotic, selfish, demented men who are completely devoid of any moral compass whatsoever. And that is underlined quite brilliantly, I think, by the baby. They're literally willing to toss the fucking baby off.

50:49Kay:Especially 333, who's the baby's father. Yes. And is still an absolute monster. Yeah, completely. As recognized by the mother early on. Yeah, she clocks him 100%. I do think that the plotting of this is really clever. I think you can underestimate I think what great job the creators does in providing these little strands like for example the fact that she the baby's mother hurt her ankle in that in the hide and seek game and then the next one is jump rope becomes the key nightmarish element of the jump rope was clever I know it seemed very clever to me because I didn't see it coming and you're like oh my god how are they going to sort that out there are loads of moments in Squid Game from first season to last where you're going, he set up a brilliant, like, insane, like, thing that cannot be solved, an insoluble thing, whereby the good guys cannot win out because it's so awful how you've set it all up.

51:44And he does that repeatedly. And it's almost like he's gaslighting us, the viewers, in an incredibly effective way, which I think is the whole point of the show. And I thought that would continue to be really clever and almost borderline excruciating sometimes. The jump rope one was really difficult. Especially the guy who gets to the end

52:01Kay:and then turns around and starts throwing everyone else off. Yeah, of course, yeah. All those things are... The games are absolutely brilliant. They are genius. The last one, I love the idea of the last one where it's all about conversations. It's pitting them against each other where they have to be tactical and decide who gets thrown off these pillars to their debts. And to the point where they can't, don't you remember to start the game? Yeah. And by the way, the rules of that, I found really complicated to kind of digest. again a reflection of my own ability it's a bit too Sandman yeah it was a bit Sandman because they established the rules and you're like what happens if they don't press the button and what happens if I thought that was really confusing if you don't press I guess the game doesn't start but then how long can you wait before they that was the key wasn't it to why he ends up having to kill himself because he was either him or the baby because he didn't press start before they had the thing he didn't press the fucking button exactly so yeah that was a lot to deal with that game and the rules of it and how it played out But it's just the brutality of that and the discussion.

53:01Kay:And again, the farce elements of it, when they discuss it in my head, well, let's think about this. You're just like, what are you doing? People don't behave like this. But yeah, the bit with the father was really bleak. And at the end, and you saw it coming, but it made it really difficult for me to watch that. And the creator did say that he, you know, Guillaume wasn't originally going to die. Yeah, I saw that. And then, yeah, he decided that he thought he has to make that sacrifice. And he has that, you know, that we are not horses, we are humans, which is what he says. in season one and so he wanted to ask what are we so he has the humans are and then the answer to that question is essentially sacrifice and then he goes very slowly off the back of the platform which I've seen I've seen before I've seen a few kind of similar slow-mo almost Jesus-like yeah batwood sort of like yeah yeah I mean Alien 3 you know pick one I guess Die Hard maybe yeah yeah there's a lot of that a lot of slow motion falling yeah but that was a real tragedy which I thought I thought was interesting was it I thought so have you watched the interview with him and then the two there's a Netflix I've not seen the Netflix one I read an interview that he did with Hollywood Reporter it's half out really interesting post-mortem with him and the two main guys and talking about the different and he talks about how the different options he had and how he changed his mind about the ending yeah in various different ways yeah he's a really interesting interesting figure because he's clearly thought you know he's thought a lot about the different implications of all the different choices he could have made in the end I think it makes sense yeah I agree yeah It's not what we want, but it is what needed to happen.

54:29And then there's the Coda set six months later where he's bringing back... Now, again, I had to remind myself. Yeah, so did I. Who are these fucking people?

54:36Kay:It's the brother of the woman who dies at the end of season one. One? Yeah, we should remember that again. I mean, I had to look that up. I had no idea who that was. Even you had to look like that. I was like, I don't know who that is. How can I have that in my head? Is that Dream of the Endless? I'm very confused. So yeah, that was tricky. That was tricky. And then obviously giving the money to his daughter. And there's the kind of, quote-unquote, mystery where it is the head man who takes his winnings from the first game and then gives them to his daughter. And the brother gives the brother the baby and the winnings.

55:05Kay:No, no, like, chat with the brother, do you want to bring up this kid? Well, you're going to. Yeah, I mean, that was, there's lots of elements to it that feel slightly undercooked or, I don't know. Or deliberately left ambiguous or something, yeah. It's another way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, that's true. I thought the, I think on the, generally, I think he did a really good job. of resolving this almost impossible to make everyone happy with how you're going to end. It's one of those shows. It's such a high concept, and it's so full of twists and turns and so full of outrageous creativity and boldness that it's hard to end it without disappointing some people.

55:44So I've seen some people disappoint. I was fine with his main ending before the Six Months Later stuff kicked in and the arrival of Cate Blanchett. But what I would say is there are certain elements of this season, like particularly, I think the vote after each game thing really weighed it down for me. Really? Yeah, you had a lot of quite repetitive, like you knew it has to carry on. There's no way it's not going to carry on.

56:10Kay:But I thought that introduced a really interesting sort of hint of tribalism to it because you caught the noughts and the crosses. Yeah. And certainly early on in this sort of what was season two, they were killing each other over the votes. Yeah. So it added another dimension to the game, which I thought was useful. Yeah, I guess so. The thing that kind of sits with me about this whole thing is just, I mean, Hwang Jong-hyuk, he is one of the most cynical people alive. His genuine belief is that people are awful, heartless, incredibly selfish people. I mean, it's part of it, it's capitalism, but I think a lot of this is just his view on human nature is quite bleak.

56:43Without wanting to get in any way political or anything, I think all you have to allude to is what's going on in the world. Turn on the news and then, yeah, okay, fair enough. I think the timing actually couldn't be better because it's the not looking at the reality of your cruelty and kind of like explaining your cruelty with that, I think, really hits home in the show and in what's going on in the world right now. So, you know, yeah.

57:12Kay:Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. But there are some interesting, again, sort of like moments of this that you see that the front man was once a contestant early on and that he was given the knife and told to kill people in their sleep, and he did. And then he tries to give Gyeon the same thing. And you can see that when Gyeon makes a different decision, he's kind of crushed by it because he realizes that Gyeon is fundamentally just a better person than he is. And he never, ever, ever gives in, does he, to the temptation to be violent. All of his violence is essentially self-defense right up until the last game.

57:49And I thought that was really good.

57:51Kay:Although I would question some of his choices, but yes. Yeah, yeah, sure. But essentially, he is... I don't think... I think he has an incredibly dark view of the... But actually, in that character, I think there is hope and there is a positivity to that. So I think it's more nuanced than simply saying... All people are awful. All people are awful, yeah. Because he isn't. But I think that human capacity for evil and awfulness and unbearable selfishness is absolutely underlined by this show. Yeah. I mean, it is bleak as fuck. but also loads of fun. Here's my final question I was going to ask. Kay, you've never watched Squid Show, have you?

58:27No. Squid Show. I love about Squid Show. Squid Game Show. No. By the way, the reality TV game show spinoff may well come back because that exists as a thing. My question is, this is the biggest show in Netflix history by some way and is an absolute cultural phenomenon. Why? What is it about this particular show that has become so incredible? Did it come out in lockdown? Or not? Because that might have a...

58:54Kay:No, the first season, I guess it kind of was, it was 2021, wasn't it? But it was the end of 2021. And there were still lockdowns then, weren't there? There were still, I can't even remember the timeline. I think it was the second wave. I think that was the second wave. So it's the end of 2021. Captive audience. I think it possibly did tap into that kind of like pandemic mindset where everyone was feeling slightly siloed and mad. But also I do think it's, as with all these things, it is, as I mentioned, the livery and the colours and the iconography of it. That it's not just a story. It became this very visual thing from the tracksuits to the pink boiler suits and the triangles, the squares and the circles, all of that.

59:30Kay:The very distinctive theme tune, the games and all of that. I think it was very easy to tap into those little sort of emblematic aspects of it. And then also, it's really inventive and it's also horrible and it's also funny and it's scary and it made you wince. The range of emotions you go through watching that It's quite extraordinary. Especially if you go back to season one, it's really fucking slow at the beginning. Because they go in and then they all leave and then they tit about for an episode and then they come back. Like, it's quite sluggish. The beginning of season two is quite sluggish as well.

1:00:01A little bit. Almost paying tribute. A little bit, yeah. I mean, he could have concertinaed seasons two and three into one quiet...

1:00:09Kay:It's almost like they were trying to draw it out. Yeah, they really... I mean, I get, you know, the biggest show... Of course. There's no way it's not going to be drawn out to some extent. But, yeah, that definitely felt like... It got quite repetitive in itself, season three. But I thought this was a really good ending. I'm very happy with the way season three played it. I didn't feel disappointed at all. Really liked it. I think two and three, I take them as a kind of a piece. But I thought they were great. I thought they built on what the first season did. They made it feel distinct. And while it was covering familiar ground, it didn't feel like a repeat of the first one.

1:00:42See, my theory is, I agree with why you think the success and why it became such a cultural phenomenon, I also think it makes us feel like we're better than them as well. I think you watch Squid Game and you go, well, I may have selfish, self-absorbed tendencies, especially if you host a podcast and are obsessed with Foundation, for example, but I'm still better than these guys that I'm watching who are the scum of the earth. And they're referred to as scum, I think, quite regularly. Do you know what I mean? that we can feel better about ourselves. Morally superior. Yeah, we can feel better about ourselves to some extent watching the show because we're not that bad.

1:01:24We know we'd never resort to doing that. We think we wouldn't ever resort to doing that. Well, leave us long enough in this studio.

1:01:29Kay:Well, I've not been funny, Pauly. If we were ever on Squid Game, Kay would kill both of us and not even think about it. Without a blink of an eye. Yeah, absolutely. We'd both be dead. She'd have pushed us straight off the platform. Definitely if I know that there's a pink jumpsuit in it. Doesn't even need the money, just a jumpsuit. Speaking of jumpsuits, I also like that we, this season and season two as well, we see the lives of the guards a little bit. We get to understand who they are, how they're recruited. And that idea that a contestant and a guard were both recruited from the same place and knew each other.

1:01:56Yeah, that's interesting. I thought that was a nice wrinkle. And the view, the observers, the sweats in the mask, got to take part in... And nearly got killed. That was interesting. Yes. Yeah, that was... There were loads of those moments where he cleverly kind of showed us more of this world.

1:02:11Kay:Would you want to be, in hide and seek, would you want to be a hider or a seeker? I'm interjecting to say I would like to be a seeker. See, so if you understand the rules, basically what happens is the hiders, they have 30 minutes to go out into a maze and the hiders have keys and the keys can unlock doors, but the doors stay unlocked once you open them and at the end there is a door to get you out and if you get out, you're home free. But you've got to survive for 30 minutes. Now the seekers come in, they have a knife each. Each seeker must kill at least one person or they get killed at the end.

1:02:41Yeah, fine.

1:02:42Kay:So as a seeker, you have to kill at least one person. So not only do you have to find someone to kill, you need to kill them before the other people on your team kill them and hope they can't kill you. In that fictional show, I think I'd be the seeker. Because otherwise I'd be just so nervous. Yeah, you absolutely are a seeker, aren't you? You're an absolute psychopath. Vicious, knife-wielding maniac. But I thought the genius of that particular game was that they gave them the option to trade at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were wrestling with that exact decision. Like, what is it better to do?

1:03:09Kay:it's better to have the knife but then have to kill someone or not have a knife but then have to survive. Can I just like, you know, a little nick? No. No. It has to be full on... Put on stabbing with a knife. You're stabbing these people to death. Stabby murder. One way or another. Yeah, surrenders. Are you saying that? Who's going to double check? I don't think I could... It's all on camera, isn't it? They're watching. Yeah. I don't think I could do that. All right, I'll be a hider. I think I'd be a hider. I couldn't cope with the... What about you, James? Stabbiness. I think I'd want to be...

1:03:34Kay:I think the secret is to be a hider, but see if you could ambush one of the seekers and take their knife. Because then you'd be a hider, so you wouldn't have to kill anyone, but you'd have a knife to defend yourself. But there's no pressure for you to kill anyone. Can I just say something, if you were a hider, do you honestly think that you'd be able to ambush a seeker and take the knife from them without dying? Some of the contestants in this were absolute fuckwits. So I reckon if you pick carefully, you quite possibly could do. I haven't watched this, but I wouldn't back you in this scenario.

1:04:01scenario, sorry.

1:04:02Kay:But I think, you know, if you band it together like a group of hiders together, you can ambush a lone seeker. Oh, yeah. I'm down for that. Kick the shit out of them and take the knife. I'll be in your gang for that. Yeah. Sure. Three of us together. We could do it. Anyway, I have another question, which is, if the American version goes ahead, and it's gone a bit quiet on it, I feel like, especially since David Fincher's making the Once Upon a Time in Hollywood spin-off, madly, from the Quentin Tarantino script, which is one of those products where I just can't believe it's actually happening, but apparently it is actually happening.

1:04:34So it's going to be quiet on his... I wonder what he's going to do. Would the American version of this show be pretty much like a shot-for-shot remake kind of thing? No.

1:04:44Kay:Because I feel like we've done that. I don't need it again. But you remember Utopia? Yes. So we're slightly... Yes. Remember that? It felt like it was rehashing... But not doing it as well. But not doing it as well. So it's like, yeah, what are they actually going to do? Create a whole new... I hope they create a whole new version of the show I would hope it would be American set like similar themes but entirely new character dynamics and set up I mean fundamentally you still need to have a sort of a foundation no pun intended of like economic crisis and desperation and then Avarice built on top of that which is the world we live in right yeah exactly so you've got to have that so you're going to have desperate characters there'll be that but I think there have to be totally new games because the first game is so iconic yeah you could have the first one I think you could have the first one but I think yes you're right you would need new games you couldn't then do the exact same ones they had last time and I will say even though the games this time were horrifying for me nothing was as horrifying as the bridge one from the first season that was just so unbelievably horrible yeah that's true there's a lot of ones where they end up plummeting to the floor and having their brains splattered over there's a lot of brain splattering a lot of plummeting by the way if you ever attempted to watch the show get yourself into the frame of mind where you don't mind splattered heads a lot of brains a lot of grey matter on the floor entrails of brains literally time after time that's my jam literally that's what he really goes for brain jam in this my favourite I'm intrigued by the American by the American I mean on the one hand I can't think of anyone I'd rather do it than David Fincher but on the other hand David Fincher does a lot of projects where he's just doing he does remakes and reimaginings he did it with the girl with the dragon tattoo there's so many it's definitely very interesting how he picks his things anyway I digress No, listen, this has been twice the length of the Department Q spoiler, so I'm really enjoying it.

1:06:31Kay:Okay, I think Kay's wrapping us up there, so that is the end of our Squid Game Season 3 spoiler chat. Do join us on Monday when we'll be back in your ears, and we're going to be reviewing Ballard, the latest instalment in the Boschiverse. We'll be reviewing Foundation Season 3. Yes, Kay. We will also be reviewing Shifting Gears, which I believe is on Disney +, partly because there are many other things out next week, but most of them are embargoed. So at least two of those. I think Dexter Resurrection and probably Dead City at least for me will cover next week's plus. And Lena Dunham. Too much Lena Dunham.

1:07:01Kay:Yeah, well that's going to go to the week after I think. But yes. Also Jared Harris will be on next week's show as well. Talking Foundation. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, how do these things happen, Kate? It's hard to say. What's interesting, he can pull his finger out sometimes when it's a... Oh, the finger pull it. Definitely. Just ran into Jared Harris randomly, Miana. Please go, not the finger pull. An impromptu chat. Oh God. Right, until Monday, pilot out.