PLUS The Witcher

0:08Kay Ribeiro:Welcome to Pilot Plus, your extended guide to every show that matters. And we are gathered here today to talk about The Witcher. Yes, season four. I'm so sorry, Kay. Season four of The Witcher, which lands on Netflix this week. Now, so this is a big year for The Witcher because a lot is happening with the show. So those of you have been keeping up with The Witcher, it was at one point Netflix's most successful original show. It has since been supplanted by other things. I was always quite surprised by that because while I think The Witcher's always been really, really good, it's quite dense and plotty.

0:42Kay Ribeiro:And let's be honest, people get turned into eels in the first season. If that's not enough to kind of trip you up, I don't know what will be. But this aired, first of all, I think it dropped in December in 2019 based on the books by Andrei Sapkowski. And this particular season, this is season four, is based on the fifth book, Baptism of Fire. But the big change here is that Henry Cavill, aka Geralt of Rivia, aka the White Wolf and the Butcher of Blaviken, is no longer the lead in this show. He has been replaced by Liam Hemsworth. So that's quite a big thing to swap out your main character, kind of sort of at the midway point of the story.

1:20Kay Ribeiro:For anyone who's not familiar with the reasons why, generally it is held to believe that henry uh cavill left the witcher to return to his role of superman only for james gunn to completely retool the dc universe and recast superman who you may have noticed is now david corren sweat uh leaving henry cavill in between jobs he'll be fine don't worry about it yeah he's okay he's not busking you're all good um but uh but it does mean that uh liam hemsworth has been cast in the role of gerald and he takes over in the lead here now boydy before we get into this how how witchered up are you be honest with me not very i mean i don't know why you you apologize to k and not me because k's excuse i just didn't even watch it k doesn't have to watch this shit as i do so that's true that is true i'm so sorry boydy for for suggesting you to this deep dense law that you don't understand yes um no i just watched the first couple of episodes probably the vita season when we touched on it on this very podcast i I haven't gone beyond that, no.

2:20And did it just not grab you? What stopped you from getting your witter on? Do you know what? I sat there watching the first episode of this new series, and I thought, do you know what? Maybe I don't like fantasy after all. Oh, wow, boy. Mazel tov. I'm so happy. It's funny that you've gone Yiddish, because whenever I hear about this show, it's gavalt, and I always think of the Yiddish phrase, oi gavalt, which means, oh, my goodness, in Yiddish. so I just keep thinking it was Gewalt rather than Geralt anyway that's a side issue I mean

2:51Kay Ribeiro:if I were to Jewish-splain to you I would point out that Mazel Tov is Hebrew not Yiddish but carry on wow oh wow he's gone there sorry I'm doing it I'm doing it okay honorary Semite James yeah yeah I'll give you that yeah I sat there thinking I just don't care about any of these you know I hate to when people say that by the way in reviews but it's true. I don't care about any of them. Yeah, what is the problem? I think the problem is I keep all of these shows, like The Wheel of Time, this one. What's the other one? There's another one that was on there. House of the Dragon? No. Rings of the Lord?

3:29Rings of the Lord. Foundation. No, Lord of the Rings, Rings of the Lord. Foundation is more sci-fi. I'm talking these ones with complicated lore and names you can't pronounce unless you're James Dyer. I can't remember, more importantly, if you're James Dyer. and lots of like creatures with lots of heads and dragons and, you know, all of that fantasy. Kikimoras, Strigas, Brookses. I mean, these are just noises. These are just noises. And of course, add to the fact, as regulars as well know, James and I had a right old Barney about Lord of the Rings and, you know, is it the greatest film of all time?

4:05Obviously not. Let's not go there, please. So maybe, I mean, as I said at the time, I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings films more than I enjoyed The Witcher for sure. But I guess I just can't be bothered with them. If they don't grab me in terms of the characters and the situations and the drama, there doesn't seem to be much dramatic tension in a lot of these shows. I think they're for people like you, James, who love immersing yourself in a world, right? They're good at world building. And I hand it to The Witcher. He's good at that. Sure, all of that is nice. But in terms of drama and excitement and caring about the characters, yeah, they've all kind of fallen by the wayside for me, including this one.

4:52And the other thing about it is I can't stop comparing them to Game of Thrones, which for me is the peak of all this stuff in terms of TV drama. And Game of Thrones was so brilliantly done. Game of Thrones did have, right from the off, fantastic level of dramatic tension and just plots you cared about, interesting characters, unpredictable moments, you know, unpredictable deaths and all that. And just from scene to scene, Game of Thrones is absolutely gripping. And so is House of the Dragon, by the way. I think those guys, the storytelling on those shows feels like on another level to me, to this one, to get back to The Witcher.

5:29So yeah, that's my feeling about it. And I didn't, I don't want, I know you did a brilliant job hosting the premiere. I did host the premiere, that's true. Oh, good. James, we need an analysis of that. How did it go?

5:42Kay Ribeiro:I mean, no one walked out. No blood was spilled. Yeah, it went quite well, I thought. Yeah, he looked very dapper. Yes, he did. Well, I felt undressed, but then anyone would compare to Laurence Fishburne in that suit. Oh, my God. Oh, that suit's sensational. I like the way you mentioned the fact that you were undressed on stage. You were so obsessed with it that you actually ended up talking about it. We had had an in-depth chat about what he was going to wear. That's true. His outfit had been approved by both Boyd and I, his sartorial consultants. And yeah, I think you looked good. I wore boots, I wore black jeans, and I wore a kind of a blood red shirt.

6:20I had wanted him, listeners, just to say I had wanted him to be in suit trousers, crisp white shirt, opened. Yeah. Not opened just like the first button. What like?

6:30Kay Ribeiro:You were the medallion kind of thing. Not like, yeah, the Hoff or anything like that. yeah but anyway I'm glad it went well good yeah no it was it was fun I was I was underdressed but then I did realize when they were turned up looking I thought I'm very glad I didn't even attempt to bring a weapon to this fight like no one should try and style out opposite Lawrence Fishburne who just looked sensational although when I did his introduction on the stage I literally did say it's actual Lawrence Fishburne complete legend that's good that's fine yeah so anyway I don't want to I don't want to prevent you from from hosting any more premieres of the show I am in the pocket of Big Witcher, so this needs to be established.

7:06You are very much 100 % in the pocket of very, very big, big pocket of Big Witcher. Yeah. But I did not get on with this. First of all, I actually, I believe the opening scene where he's back fighting those bloody multi - Kickin' Horus, yes. Spider-type things. That was definitely a spin on the very first scene, wasn't it, of the first episode. Well spotted. See, I remembered that. Well remembered, Boyd-O. Thanks. Thanks, Gay. But scene for scene, yeah, I just did not, I was not gripped I actually genuinely this is true I'm not just saying this to be obnoxious and funny and all that I fell asleep on my sofa you went full freeze oh my god I was to be fair to me though I was absolutely knackered last night because I had to write things for Empire things for heat I was exhausted by the end of it so you never fall asleep during stuff though I know I know so I woke up and watched the rest of it anyway but anyway cut a long story short but you know what a couple of things surprised me and this is going to sound overly critical I don't mean to be horrible but like it doesn't look that great I don't think it looks that great like every now and then there's a shot of people chatting in the forest right and it's lit like a kind of 90s sitcom to me like the lighting i know i don't i'm sorry but you know it's again to come up to game of thrones every single shot in game of thrones feels like you know a kind of cinematic there's something much more cinematic about that show and the house of the dragon than this it doesn't feel so feel that expensive it doesn't feel game of thrones does to ooze money, doesn't it?

8:30Yeah, I know. But once you've done that, you know, in this world, in this genre, I just feel a show like this has to catch up. If it is, you know, as you say, it was once the biggest show in the world, allegedly, put into, you know, some Netflix. That's Netflix, yeah. But I feel like other shows have overtaken it and it's not, you know, visually and in terms of effects, et cetera. So that surprised me a bit. And yeah, I just didn't, it's just lots of people kind of traveling around, some having fun, getting in fights with each other, being attacked by monsters every now and then, and singing songs, singing stupid songs, and then...

9:06I'm sold. Yeah. I take it back. I'm going in. You're going to love it. K's on board. I did not love it, and I am absolutely not bothered about ever watching the episode ever again. Wow. Oh my God, I've never heard him so... Yeah, I'm sounding harsher than I really think. I think it's fine, but it's definitely not... It did make me think maybe I don't like fantasy.

9:27Kay Ribeiro:just to just to i think there are two two things that kind of spring to my mind obviously i'm not gonna i'm not gonna freudianly kind of unpack why you didn't like it but i think i think with fantasy with you i think i think like my take on it is that when you get incredibly dense law it maybe feels a bit like homework and you're a bit like fuck off i just don't have the time to memorize all this shit i think game of thrones is a separate thing because game of thrones doesn't really have complicated law it gets a little bit knotty later on but really it's just politics isn't it it's just politics it could be it could be historical fiction okay there are dragons in it but put the dragons aside but it's basically medieval like it's it's you know that was the thing about it yeah it could have been a medieval set it's a literal game of thrones right so it's just about power and kings and queens and power and people fucking each other over and throwing kids out of windows you know your average sunday afternoon so yeah so so i think it's quite record exactly but it's very accessible in that way because the themes are universal and yes it's nice to know how all the heraldry and which house is kind of vassaled to it but you don't need to know any of that shit but i do think for something like the witcher if you don't have a grip on the mythology you will get utterly lost so point in fact season one when people are getting turned into eels you're just like what the fuck is happening but if you get into that if you enjoy that stuff it's actually very rich the world building they have here now the other thing i would say to this boy is you are joining in the fourth season of an incredibly dense story I will also point out that this particular book, Baptism of Fire, is part of a kind of three-story arc, which started with the previous one, which is Chek's Bookshelf, Time of Contempt, and then continues in Tower of the Swallow.

11:00Kay Ribeiro:So this is kind of like, this is your two towers moment, where it's like the middle chapter of a three-book story. now it's almost unfortunate in some ways that this was the season that cavill left him because this i would argue as one of the books is not the strongest book because it's a middle chapter you don't get any resolution to any of the shit that's going on and you're already dropped in in the middle of it like it's quite a lot to try and get your head around isn't that a good place for him not to be in then if it's like a bit rubbish well no because i'm thinking like if you're going to swap out like yeah what you don't want to think is say oh i saw the season of the witcher and oh yeah yeah it wasn't quite as good as the last one maybe that's because it isn't henry cavill anymore but actually it's because you're in the middle of a story and you're not getting any payoffs so i think i think there are some and i don't think it's a it's a fault of the the show runner who like lauren schmidt history and we talked about this so we did i did a spoiler interview with her which will go up i think next week i want to say uh which is quite fun so we get into all the knotty plot stuff there um but they brought forward a little bit from the next book uh i think to bookend it but there's a lot going on at this point politically and they do some they do some interesting stuff they introduce a whole new new thread that isn't actually in in the books the other thing i didn't mention is liam hemsworth yeah yeah okay but this is exactly what i was gonna get into now so right liam hemsworth obviously is in the trailer uh and there was there was mixed responses online so you've seen cavill as the witcher you've now seen hemsworth as a witcher what's your yeah i i much prefer cavill i have to say i think i don't know what first of all what accent is liam doing um it's like a kind of british is it which is growly Geralt.

12:29Kay Ribeiro:Like, he's just doing growly Geralt. Right. I mean, he can't go, I mean, he's Australian. He can't, like, I'm charging out with his own accent. Well, why not? I mean, I don't know. I'm Geralt of Rivia. It's truth. It's a fucking kickimora. I know. Well, he tries to do an accent, okay. Okay, some Australians can do good accents. The problem, I think I've said this before, probably, about one of the problems for me with this is that this guy at the centre of the whole thing is not very interesting. Like, he's not, you know, he's not a particularly competitive character. What, the Cavill Hemsworth character?

13:00Geralt, you don't like the white wolf. I mean, I don't mind him, but he's not, you know, he's a bit of a blank, isn't he? In the sense of this.

13:07Kay Ribeiro:The thing is, again, you come to him at an odd moment here, because he's kind of broken in body and spirit when we join him in this series. So in some ways, I guess this is an interesting time to mix out the character, to swap the actor out, because Geralt has gone through a bit of an emotional change at this point. So he is a slightly different take on the character. But Boyd, did you find him a blank when you watched it previously? Yeah, a bit. Or were you finding him particularly a blank now? Yeah, I found him at the centre of this whole thing not a particularly interesting figure. Yeah, again, you know, he doesn't...

13:34I don't know who he's supposed to be. He feels like an everyman. He's fantasy Jack Reacher. Right, okay. Yeah, well, yeah, Jack Reacher, yeah, he's much more interesting than this guy. Anyway, yeah, so I wasn't particularly... I felt sorry for Liam Hemsworth a bit because I think Henry Cavill is more charismatic than him.

13:53Kay Ribeiro:I think it's quite interesting that right I'm going to look something up here right how tall is Henry Cavill oh I love to Google that tell me he is so Henry Cavill is shorter than me right so he's six foot he's six foot one he's six foot one so he's shorter than me Liam Hemsworth is an absolute unit because when I when I did he's about six foot three I think I'm gonna guess yeah Liam Hemsworth height let's see how tall he is six foot three yeah he's six foot three because i looked i was like fucking hell he's tall but it's interesting because when you see him as gerald cavill feels bigger and maybe it's because he's wider like he is i mean cavill is quite extraordinary in terms of physique but hemsworth i thought felt slighter in the show but actually when i saw him in the flesh like he's massive like he really is like he's two inches taller than gavel so he does bring a physicality to it but i think what cavill brings that role which is different is a slightly different interpretation of the character where he gives it a much harder more dangerous edge if that makes sense like he comes across as quite almost quite sinister and intimidating i think hemsworth's gerald is quite a little bit softer a little bit more emotionally so you're saying that metaphorically makes him a bigger character like yeah i think it's a it might be a presence thing and i think it is possibly that so there's slightly different reasons i remember now cavill was more broodingly kind of you know like man with no name didn't have much didn't say that much kind of thing wasn't he whereas this guy seems more garrulous and kind of like light and i'm not sure yeah i think that makes him slightly less interesting yeah well i think i think he's pretty good actually i must admit like i don't i don't i mean obviously you know i i hosted the premiere so you know cars on table but i i actually you know do i prefer liam hemsworth to henry cavill no i think cavill cavill's reading was more interesting to me but i do think hemsworth actually is good in the role and i i think because i watched all however many episodes of this there are i think there are eight there might be 10 i think there's eight um after about the third episode i kind of forgot that it was a different person and i just got on with the series which was fine i did find myself occasionally replaying scenes in my head and seeing what it would have been like if it had been cavil thinking oh how would cavil have died i was just curious about that but it did stop after a while is it like so some this has a a few different threads to it but it's really just the politics of the land unfolding there's a whole thing going on the lodge of sorceresses vilga forts the mage has a big battle which is very exciting uh and then laurence fishburne turns up as a character whose identity i will not spoil i liked him i liked him i would say i that was fun seeing him and he's a nice bit casting that it's a fun character yeah yeah that was my favorite thing probably about about it yeah james audience ways does this have a loyal following it does it do really well i think it does well i don't think it does as well as it used to do but and i got into this with my conversation with history where i think that things like lord of the rings which boyd he loves and uh game of thrones primed people for fantasy and they were looking for something else and so people maybe got into the witcher in a way that maybe they wouldn't have done because it is quite dense but they were prepared to give it a chance because they thought oh you know i do like fantasy i liked game of thrones so i think people did get into it and having got into it having been prepared to give all that lore a chance they you know they very much enjoyed it and i think if you're like if you've watched it thus far i think it would be mad to stop watching it at this point because i don't think it's a significant dip in quality it's jarring that they've had to recast absolutely but you will get over it and there's one more season to come so this is the fourth the fifth season which is already wrapped that's going to cover the final two books so you know i feel like if you got in this far there's no reason to stop watching now because it is still the show that it was it's still very very good also i would say freya allen who plays siri in this i imagine she has an absolute nightmare when anyone says her name and then everyone's phone just springs to life and starts doing things siri tell me what What do you think of The Witcher?

17:35Kay Ribeiro:She has her own thread, this story, this season. So she has her own situation with this group called The Rats, where she's in with this street gang, and that's quite a fun little thread as well. They're called The Rats, yes. Oh, I'm into that. Yeah, they're a gang of hoodlums, of ne 'er-do-wells, of cut-murses. Okay, this is the kind of thing we're up against. Siri, right? Come on. This is the official... Cirilla of Cintra, the lion cub of Cintra. She is Cirilla Fiona Ellen Rhiannon, the crown princess of Cintra, granddaughter of Queen Salanthe, and daughter of Pavetta, from whom she inherited the Elder Blood and she's linked to Geralt by Destiny.

18:07Kay Ribeiro:Also, blood daughter of Dooni, aka Emir van Emrys, the Emperor of Nilfgaard. Do you know what? It just sounds like someone's taking the piss. Exactly. How much can we feed these people? Listen, Eamon Farron plays Cahillian Mawr different Ape. What is going on? I mean, it does make me laugh. It reminds me of a French and Saunders spoof of this kind of stuff. It's like, if they're going to take the piss out of a fantasy, this is the one they should really focus on, I would advise. I feel obliged to correct myself. The Emperor of Nilfgaard is, of course, Emhyr Var Emerys, not Van Emerys. Rookie era.

18:49People will be up in arms about that.

18:50Kay Ribeiro:I know, they'll be furious about it. Look, this stuff is obviously my catnip. I fucking love this stuff. It's great. I really enjoy it. It's brilliant. I know. What would your Witcher name be, James? God knows. the bellend of Blaviken or something. No, I just wondered if there's like a, is there any rhyme or reason to these names? Like, is, because it feels, it sounds like a different language, almost like Middle English. Well, no, it's Slavic because it's written by Andrzej Sapkowski, who is Polish. So it's a Polish fantasy series. So the names, the names kind of have those kind of Slavic roots.

19:22But they've got a kind of Welsh, you know, Celtic quality to them. That's, that's what makes them funny. It's like, it's like being, you know, it's like being. Okay, if any listeners want to give us Witcher names please do get in touch I'll be interested to know what they sound like

19:34Kay Ribeiro:I also would like to know what our Witcher names would be so do feel free to share those but look the takeaway from this is if you have not watched any Witcher so far don't even for one second think about starting with this series because it would be absolute insanity as Boyd has demonstrated however if you've watched the first three seasons and you like them there's more to like here so you should absolutely watch it and I will say Joey Beatty who plays you know the bard Yaskier who famously sang Toss a Coin to Your Witcher he has an extended musical sequence in this and it is wild he does I remember this I remember that from last time when we reviewed it yeah oh yeah toss a coin to your Witcher which I tentatively learned how to play on the guitar but I will never play for you okay that was The Witcher season 4 and it airs on Netflix when Boidy today it's today it's today yes it's embarked until today 100 % there we go The Witcher okay shall we turn now to the post bag Ladies and gentlemen, it's Miss Kay versus the Postbag.

20:47Let's, let's, let's, let's do that. And I'm going to start with Phil because he actually, he sent two messages. One just came in this morning. So originally he had said that, I wanted to write to you as after seven years of devoted podcast listening, I finally tried watching you on YouTube and it's incredible. Oh God. He says, I normally listen during my commute to work, but as I'm on holiday in Istanbul, I decided to watch you after a day at the, oh my God, I'm not even going to try to say that, Phil. He went somewhere. Anyway, he said, your usual chemistry is elevated massively with all the extra visual elements and audio only medium doesn't catch.

21:21Plus, oh God, right. So he's noted my cheeky smile as I snuck in a cinnamon swirl during recording.

21:29Kay Ribeiro:And you forgot the cameras were on. Yes, I forgot the cameras were on. Phil, it's so embarrassing. I'm so sorry you had to see that. Basically, I had a real sugar low. And I said to James, dude, I've got to eat this for a week because we're going to this mammoth record. So he said, don't worry, I'll put your mics down. I was like, cool. And then I just sat in the corner eating my swirl, staring out the window. So yeah, apologies for that. But anyway, Phil seemed to enjoy it. I think people also picked up the video from this week's podcast, WebEye. So just to pull the curtain back, because obviously this is what Pilot Plus subscribers pay for, is that you did your Strictly news, that I dropped my David Chase news, and because I'd interrupted your Strictly news, you interrupted the David Chase news and changed the subject.

22:10Kay Ribeiro:And I pulled it back onto subject. And it's fine because we cut around it, but of course the cameras kind of catch you, kind of arms folded, looking quite cross. Oh, yeah. It just briefly cuts to you looking furious. and then it comes back again. And listeners, I need you to know that was 100 % how I was feeling, right? Because basically, the most exciting news I had was cut short by James. So I thought, okay, right, well, I'm going to go back to some other news that I want to talk about. And then he pulled rank and silenced me and I was furious. You were furious. I'm going to be honest, it was very hard to shake that off for the rest of the pod.

22:44But anyway, right. Anyway, I'm going to continue with another message from Phil he sent this morning to say, oh, yeah, so it's about the christmas episode that we were mooting um and he said dear pilot gang if screeners aren't the issue and it's just a question of finding a christmas dinner i don't mind genuinely covering that in exchange for a christmas episode and he said let me know how much reasonably not at the ivy or the place where the chicken sliders need and i can transfer it dinner for three is the least i can do i'd feel like the medici becoming a great patron of the arts boyd is right that's

23:14Kay Ribeiro:when the best tv is on and please stop enabling boyd yeah he said p.s speaking oh and he gets God, Phil's doing our PR for us. P.S., speaking of good value entertainment, your pod is£3.50 for an hour. The rest is entertainment. It's£7 for 30 minutes. Well, extra a week, not for an hour, because actually if you work it out, we're like one, two, three, four, five or something hours a month, I think we get for£3.50. Yeah, he said, therefore, you are literally four times more value for them. Yes. So, Phil, while that's a very kind offer, obviously we can't take you up on that, and that burden of responsibility financially, and, you know, morally lies with Boyd.

23:50But we appreciate your offer as a loyal... It's me, you're depriving the listener of, you know, our reviews of some of the best... No, if you can... Boyd, okay, this is my verbal contract. If you get us screeners, I'll do it. We'll see. But you know what, then? He's backed out. He's backed out. He wimped out. He was given the opportunity. But you know what I'm thinking of? I've seen the list of the Christmas stuff coming up. Oh, my God. It's not great, I have to say. Really? Oh, really? Yeah, this year's Christmas TV. I mean, unless... Oh, don't say that. Well, I think last year you had Gavin and Stacey and loads of stuff.

24:26Last year was like a golden year. Gavin and Stacey is anything I can think of right now. But that's, you know, obviously uppermost in my mind with the book out at the moment. Available from all good and evil bookstores. Anyway, but yeah, there was loads of stuff last year. And from what I've seen so far, there really is some this year. So, yeah. Anyway, maybe it's not that important that we cover the Christmas week of TV after all as well. Yeah. Ooh, God, what? God, as reverse spirits go, that's quite spectacular. Yeah, well, you know, you've got to, you know.

24:54Kay Ribeiro:Boyd's gone full shower of Nottingham and he has called off Christmas. This is extraordinary. Yeah. Grinch is in town. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, sorry about that, Phil. We're not doing Christmas episode, maybe. Now for Ellen, who said, oh, God, talking about recordings. I'm not going to give the timestamp on this because I can say with certainty, Ellen, it's not me. but just to, you know, spare the boys blushes in case they couldn't control themselves. Ellen says, subject heading, what did I just hear? And then she said, all right, owner, all right, owner, which of you did a Celia Imri at? And then she's giving the time code of the most recent pod.

25:29My money is on board. Love you guys. You're my favourite.

25:32Kay Ribeiro:That cannot be the case because I would 100 % have heard that in the edit. I hear every lip smack. I'm such a sound fascist. You know what I'm like? Like, I would, you know, I would have called you out and said, what the hell are you doing? I will say there's quite often, because when we record, there is an abundance of stomach gurgles sometimes when we record. Because we record before lunch and because we start at 12 and it often goes on to 2, it gets to 2 o 'clock and none of us have eaten. Hence the cinnamon swirl debacle. So there's often sort of gurgling stomach noises. The other thing is, I resent the implication that I'm the most obvious person.

26:06But anyway, the other thing is that I do remember, this is true, I'm not just saying this. I was fiddling around with my seat a lot during the last record in the studio. I couldn't get my seat height and microphone. Because I keep fucking with the desk height. Yeah, exactly. I think the lady does protest too much. Shut up. Shut up. Anyway, that's my explanation. But yeah, James would have absolutely picked up on that. Also, we would have discussed it. It would have been picked up somehow between us.