PONIES and Falling, with guests Emilia Clarke, Jon Bernthal & Ebon Moss-Bachrach

4:54Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh my God, what is this?

4:55Jon Bernthal:I'm going to have to take my headphones off.

4:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I feel it.

4:59Jon Bernthal:What do you think? I can't see it. Oh, here we go. Echo Park Brewery.

5:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh my God, how did you?

5:04Jon Bernthal:Do you like it? It's good. This is a bona fide prop from Colin from Accounts. You are so lucky. The lovely Michael, lovely Michael who listens to this podcast who worked on Colin from Accounts, said when they wrapped the season three which I believe is going to be the last season he has not told me that to be fair that is something I intuited from Harriet Dyer no relation her Instagram post but they were doing a prop sale and he bought me this cap from the Echo Park Brewery what? an official Colin Farmer Counts cap

5:28Emilia Clarke:do you know what as well the cap fits it does you finish it quite well you're not really a baseball cap wearer whereas I am a baseball cap I don't see you in baseball cap you are not a baseball cap wearer you mean outside the

5:38Jon Bernthal:bald men Boydie have to wear hats well right

5:40Emilia Clarke:but one of your signature visual looks is the fact that you have a shiny head, which you do show off a lot. But I take the cap off when I get to the office. So I wear it in transit.

5:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You do not wear an in-transit cap. It's like Severus. I do, I have a transit cap.

5:53Emilia Clarke:But the difference between your work life and your personal life is the cap.

5:57Jon Bernthal:Yeah, that's it. That is the signature. But now, my signature cap is this lovely Echo Park brewery. It's a genuinely nice cap.

6:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It is. Because it's a really cool logo. Isn't it? Yeah, it's really cool.

6:06Emilia Clarke:I saw someone... Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Michael. You're so kind. Yeah, brilliant. By the way, Colin from Accounts Dude, what's his name who's in Patrick Bramall 2 have you seen Devil Wears Prada 2 no I haven't I haven't yet I thought it was a bit of a weak link that relationship in the film anyway he was I would argue somewhat wasted

6:26Jon Bernthal:totally wasted

6:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:everyone's loving Devil Wears Prada 2 though everybody is loving him

6:29Jon Bernthal:it's the most three star film ever made but it's fine not everyone

6:32Emilia Clarke:it's three stars it's good but it's I agree with you three stars

6:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:anyway

6:36Emilia Clarke:good hat wear thank you very much

6:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:so he from his own money purchase that for you.

6:42Jon Bernthal:Yeah. And the postage was like 25 bucks. It was probably quite expensive. Yeah. It could have been. It could have been. Michael's a mensch. He's a good guy. What does he do on that? Do you know what? I don't know what his exact role on Colin from accounts was, but he works in the industry. Is he a key grip? Is he a gaffer? No, no, I think he's like an AD or something like that.

7:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay, well, I hope he could claim that back on expenses. Do you think? Yeah, I hope so.

7:06Emilia Clarke:Listen, if he's making Colin from accounts, he's probably doing okay.

7:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, you know, you shouldn't take things for granted.

7:11Emilia Clarke:No. No, you really shouldn't.

7:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You're very lucky.

7:14Jon Bernthal:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Steph.

7:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm jealous. Very jealous.

7:16Jon Bernthal:But I'm not always lucky. And the reason I say this is, Boydie, what were you up to on Sunday night, for example?

7:24Emilia Clarke:Sunday night, I was watching West Ham vs. Arsenal on my iPhone. Definitely not where I'm going with this. But what you're alluding to, if I can use those words, and I will, is that at the same time I was at the BAFTA TV Awards. Yes. 2026. The BAFTA TV Awards, which... At the Royal Festival Hall. Yes, which you were invited to multiple times by multiple people.

7:44Jon Bernthal:Kind of, yeah. And would you like to ask me how many times I was invited by how many people? Do you know what?

7:49Emilia Clarke:There's a brilliant punchline to this as well, so I don't know if you know, but go on. How many times were you invited? None. Okay. No invites from anyone. Just to say... Multiple. Do you know? Because can you guess who was in? So I was invited. I was on the jury, the panel, that decided the shortlist for the Memorable Moment Award, which is the only award voted for by members of the public. The one that counts. The one that counts. it was won quite rightly by Alan Cole winning Celebrity Chaser so that was the winning oh I think you guessed

8:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that it was going to be that one when we had the list

8:13Emilia Clarke:so I was on that jury so I was invited by P &O the sponsors because they also sponsored that award and went to the BAFTAs the ferry people the ferry people exactly then in the week so that happened weeks ago like they invited me and then in the week before the BAFTAs HBO Max invited me to sit at their table and I was like oh you know that's a good that's a good table to be on Yeah, that's a juicy table. Yeah, right, in every way. And remember, by the way, that HBO Max slash TNT, the people who invited me to the Champions League final. So anyway, so I thought, I thought long and hard about what should, but I couldn't swap.

8:49Emilia Clarke:You can't be wrong. I told you what to do. I know, but you gave me some very funny advice.

8:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I did, and he said, one of the things you should do is just basically go to both tables, have two dinners, and keep just going, I'm just going to go up to the loo. Like Mrs.

9:00Emilia Clarke:Doubtful. I am going to write a comedy fast script about it. Yeah, pretending, what would you do if you worked on both tables? Yeah. Worked the room, sat at two tables, had two dinners. Yeah, two desserts. It's a funny premise, so I might turn that into a comedy. But anyway, the person who's on the HBO Max table was... Noah Wiley. Amon Warman of the Empire Podcast fame. Brilliant.

9:25Jon Bernthal:So Amon was invited. Who is like you, primarily a film journalist. So just to be absolutely clear, Amon, who, and I cannot emphasize this enough, is a film journalist was invited by HBO Max the TV streaming service to be on their TV table at the TV Awards whereas myself host of the award winning pilot TV podcast not a thing I saw him and I thought

9:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I was invited too but I was just like oh do you know what I'm not going to go wow no I wasn't

9:55Emilia Clarke:wow I thought it was entertaining I presume HBO Max does have films on it as well though oh then that's fine that's fine that's okay that's fine

10:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:would you have gone if you'd been invited

10:04Emilia Clarke:no but that's really neither here nor there Steph yeah good point well done I knew there was something I meant to say yeah you wouldn't have gone anywhere hey you don't know that

10:13Jon Bernthal:I like to mix things up

10:14Emilia Clarke:I might have gone Sunday night I can't I can't see it

10:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:there's no way you would have gone three and a half hour

10:18Emilia Clarke:ceremony no way HBO if you're listening to this I'm just saying I might have come if you'd ask me I might have come anyway I was watching the Arsenal game on my phone throughout the whole ceremony I'm sure I appreciated that but also guess who was as well Danny Dyer Danny Dyer he's a West Ham fan clearly watching the game on his phone as well. And not only that, they had this most spectacular dramatic ending of any football match in recent memory where Weston thought they'd scored and it was disallowed by VAR and he had his head in his hands. Danny Dyer was absolutely fucking devastated. Did you dance behind the game?

10:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Almost. Look, VAR is... Look, we can't get into this but there's been a lot of VAR decisions at the moment that are...

10:54Emilia Clarke:Steph, this is not footballistically Arsenal. I know, but it's... I'm not Gary Neville, sadly. No. In any way.

11:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know what I'd really like? one of Gary Neville's she-lays so if anyone can get their hands on one of those anyway

11:06Jon Bernthal:let's move on what have you been watching Boily apart from football

11:10Emilia Clarke:well I was going to say the football whilst during the BAFTAs but I've covered that that's fine I can move on from that but it was an incredible moment in my life never to be forgotten because that was going to be the defining moment of this football season by the way James just saying but what I've been watching actually for the purposes of this show appertaining to Pilot TV is my favourite documentary of the year so far, which is on Netflix. Bold claim. The End of an Era, Taylor Swift's Eras Tour Retrospective. No, that's on Disney+. Shit. This is a documentary on Netflix, dropped last week, and it's a feature-length documentary, aka, it could be described as a film, but it's not a film because it's not coming out of cinemas.

11:48Emilia Clarke:Let's not have that whole conversation again. It's just absolutely brilliant from beginning to end, and it is Marty, Life's Short. Life's Short.

11:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, God, I bet that's brilliant.

11:58Emilia Clarke:Yes, Martin Short. the star you're probably best known these days for being in Only Merders in the building with Steve Martin his lifelong friend Steve Martin he's been my regular listeners loyal listeners to the show I think he's one of the five funniest people in the world absolutely present company excluded yeah and I always loved him ever since I saw him I think it goes back to Three Amigos but I would say Father of the Bride

12:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Father of the Bride Genius Inner Space

12:22Emilia Clarke:Inner Space Jiminy Glick the funniest comedy character ever invented and I include Alan Partridge maybe even David Brent in that I don't know maybe he's up there anyway and this is and it's directed by Lawrence Kasdan who's a brilliant proper film director and best mates with him as well but what's surprising about it is that it traces his life from Korea and he's had a lot of tragedy in his life a lot of tragedy his big brother died when he was like 12 or something and he's had a lot of the recent deaths in his family and friends of his died but he's so he's so still managed to take everything with his sense of humour He's managed to be funny about all of that stuff.

13:00Emilia Clarke:He makes dark jokes about the bereavements he's had to go through him and his family in the most incredible way. So I loved it. It does absolute justice to the great man, and it's fantastic.

13:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Your favourite documentary of the year.

13:14Emilia Clarke:Marty, Life is Short on the Netflix. Then the other show I've been watching is, I thought I'd go back, because I've had so many correspondences, is that the word? I don't know. About...

13:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Please God, please God. Widow's Bay.

13:29Jon Bernthal:And there is an entire subreddit thread on this subject, and the reception seems to be, and I cannot say this clearly now, universally lauding it. Not even like, yeah, it's fine. They genuinely love it.

13:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Can I, I just want to say...

13:44Jon Bernthal:You can say whatever you want.

13:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm just going to remind you both. I'm going to take you back two weeks.

13:47Jon Bernthal:Because Steph didn't like it when we saw it. We were quite positive on it. I know, yeah. But Steph actually doesn't know what she's talking about.

13:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Where you both were so... You were...

13:55Emilia Clarke:I wasn't as negative as he was. You weren't as negative.

13:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, I hated it. Yeah, he hates it. And I pleaded with you to watch it because it was so good. I pointed out, and then somebody wrote in, and it's on Pilot Plus. They wrote in and gave a brilliant email of why you should love it, all the reasons. And now I would like to hear all the reasons that Boyd now loves Widow's Bay.

14:15Emilia Clarke:So first of all, we read out the email on Pilot Plus, as you say, which accused me of ignoring, because I did talk about how it had a mixed response from critics. I did roughly use that phrase or whatever. because I had read negative reviews, a couple of negative reviews, quite prominent ones, and this correspondent said that that wasn't true and I was wrong about it being mixed. Now, what is the case is on Rotten Tomatoes, which annoys me anyway, and the other one, what's the other one? Metacritic. Metacritic. It's like 80, 90%. So clearly, vast majority. But there were Time magazine, it was quite scathing about it, and there was another magazine, what's one of those Collider or one of those online type things where you have to pay to actually read the first half of the review.

14:52Emilia Clarke:It was pretty negative as well, as was I. But I admit that I was being slightly misleading by saying it was mixed because it's definitely the vast majority were positive.

14:59Jon Bernthal:I think the reader said that you said they were negative.

15:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And you did say that.

15:03Jon Bernthal:And the reader was arguing that actually, at worst, they were mixed.

15:06Emilia Clarke:Well, Times one is absolutely negative. Okay. And I read it very soon after we'd reviewed it and it's kind of said all the things that I felt about it in a way. And the other thing I think I was obsessed with at the time for some reason was about actor performances in comedies. I think we've done a couple of comedies where I've been slightly irritated by actors being slightly like I'm in a comedy type acting. You know, their register, if you like, was just too much and it left me unconvinced and slightly ruined those shows for me.

15:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:From what I remember, I think part of your issue was that people were talking a bit loudly.

15:39Emilia Clarke:Yes, there was a lot of shouting in that first episode. And I maintain there was too much shouting in that first episode. Okay, well... I'm just saying.

15:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay, now begin your reverse ferret.

15:48Emilia Clarke:But...

15:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Put your reverse beepers on.

15:50Emilia Clarke:But, overall... Double down, boy, double down. Overall, I have to say, it's really good.

15:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Thank you, Brian. I'm so sorry.

15:57Emilia Clarke:As if I made it myself.

15:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You're such a flip-flopper.

16:00Emilia Clarke:I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. I am the Kia Starmer. Wow. There's no way for me to cut that out. I have totally done a 180 reverse ferret, whatever you want to call it, U-turn. It's a big U-turn for me. It's really good. I don't know what I was thinking. It's really good, isn't it? what I was thinking. Well, I do know what I was thinking. I do think, I'm still going to maintain also slightly in that politician way where they never admit they're wrong about anything that the first episode isn't the best. I think the second episode really is a massive leap forward when he goes to the haunted hotel.

16:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, the haunted hotel.

16:39Emilia Clarke:And that's really well done. Yeah. And even though I kind of knew what was going to happen in the end of that because if you're a horror fan, you're going to get all the tropes are there in this show and you're going to know kind of, you can predict what's going to happen when they deploy those tropes. But it's really entertaining.

16:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's so entertaining.

16:56Emilia Clarke:He is great. And I do think he was shouting too much in episode one. But after that, he's fine. He settles down. There's a great kind of putative romantic element to it, which is really where he goes to do with this nice lady meets cute out when she's looking at a road sign. The eccentric older characters get more depth, particularly the kind of main one, that main guy who he's had the big clash with. Turns out to be... The fisherman guy. The fisherman does a big look. He needs it more than anything. And the whole premise, which is that what would happen if a complete cynic and non-believer in anything supernatural, whose whole job is being undermined by these annoying locals, who he himself refers to as yokels or whatever at one point, what if all of those things turned out to be true?

17:42Emilia Clarke:And then he has to kind of almost convince himself that these things aren't actually happening when they clearly are, and that the supernatural stuff is a figure of his imagination. They do cleverly deploy things like him drinking a lot, the fumes of the damp in the room might have got him hallucinating. But in the end, it's like, all right, this stuff is happening to me. I'm terrified. I need to sort it out somehow. It's just, it's a delight. It is a delight. Yeah, it's really good. Do you know what else is a delight?

18:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You are. Well done for going back to watch it because it is so good and I want people to watch it because it's really funny. Isn't it funny?

18:18Emilia Clarke:It is funny. It's funny, and do you know what? The horror stuff is very well done. It's like comedy horror almost is defined by stuff like Shaun of the Dead, which actually is comedy, comedy, comedy, horror, horror, right? Whereas this is comedy, comedy, comedy, horror, horror, horror, horror. And the horror stuff is really genuinely creepy sometimes when it needs to be. So it's quite well judged in that way, I think, tonally. Mr. Tonal Shift over there would find it. The tone was what turned me off. Yeah, but I think they get their act in gear as it goes on, and just the way they there's one bit which is quite David Lynchian with the old woman in the distance and all of that they use distance quite well a bit like the Doctor Who episode 73 Yards yes so yeah I really like it you've now made me want to revisit this I'm sorry

19:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:you'll really like it James you will just give it another chance well I may not because bear in mind

19:07Jon Bernthal:it doesn't exactly gel with my sensibilities regarding comedy that said I do take people's points that like sometimes because that one I only did get time to watch the first one which I did struggle with sometimes a bad first episode does not a bad show make. It can find its feet as it goes along. So I will definitely give it at least one more episode when I can. I can't promise when because Steph and I have agreed that having reviewed Dutton Ranch on Pilot Plus I mean this is stupid for a start. Right. We have committed to a Yellowstone run through because we've never seen it.

19:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:We're going into the Stone Pass fourth of the tool and we are going to be like Taylor Sheridan's biggest reviewers now. That could be.

19:44Jon Bernthal:I mean let's be honest. I will re-watch the Pilot and I will watch a couple of episodes and if I hate it, I'm just going to stop. But Dutton Ranch has made me want to know what happened. I need to understand Rip. That's what it is. I need to get into the mind of Rip.

19:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Rip cannot be understood. I told you.

19:59Jon Bernthal:I think that might be true.

19:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know who is Rip's, one of his greatest fans? David Beckham. He was on David Beckham's show. Really? Yes. And David Beckham.

20:07Emilia Clarke:The football watching show that I mentioned last week. The one that you mentioned last week

20:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which is why I'm bringing it up is because he had him on it and he was basically saying he's a huge Yellowstone fan, David Beckham he was like saying I just you're like the greatest ever I love your character you're such a a man's man you're so brilliant so I'm just saying interesting

20:26Emilia Clarke:slightly worrying that David Beckham is modelling himself on

20:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well slightly worrying the dude from

20:30Emilia Clarke:the dude from the ranch what's it called the new one the ranch

20:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Dutton Ranch

20:35Emilia Clarke:Dutton Ranch

20:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and it is excellent addictive TV Steph

20:39Jon Bernthal:what animal have you been watching documentaries about this week

20:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:do you know what's so funny about that is it badgers you know You know I went Secret Life of Bees and then I went on to Secret Life of Whales. If they haven't got a secret life,

20:52Emilia Clarke:it's not worth bothering with. You know what they've got now?

20:54Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Secret Life of Octopuses.

20:56Emilia Clarke:Who has? Who's doing these shows?

20:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The Disney Channel is great. It's so good.

21:00Jon Bernthal:Not so secret. They've done a fucking documentary about it. Yeah, it's just got octopus, wasn't it?

21:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's the irony. I'm not going to go into it, but what I will go into is, this sounds like the title of this show is just like a rhetorical question, which is Netflix is, and everyone's watching this, should I marry a murderer?

21:19Jon Bernthal:I mean, surely the answer to that is just no, move on.

21:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, no. Okay, so Caroline Muirhead, right, is a pathologist. She'd recently come out of a relationship and it was apparently not very nice and he's obviously a horrible cheat or whatever. And she went on, like most people do, on the old Tinder, right? Who uses Tinder? Well, back in that day.

21:41Jon Bernthal:Oh, okay, fair enough.

21:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay, like the swipe right. I'm familiar.

21:45Emilia Clarke:Far too familiar, but carry on. I think it's entered into popular culture by now, by the way. We know what Tinder is.

21:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just to be clear.

21:52Emilia Clarke:Yes, please, please Tinder-splain to me.

21:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Anyway, and she swiped on this guy called Sandy McKellar, okay? Scottish? Yes. And he was like a farmer guy, and they met up, and it was one of these whirlwind romances, right? This is a famous case, but it's all told from her perspective. And basically, he reveals to her that he proposes four months, whirlwind proposal after four months. Love bombing, red flag. Well, then he tells her that he's accidentally killed someone and buried them where they've been clay pigeon shooting. Yes, I know. People are looking for this poor, poor man, Tony Parsons, who went missing in 2017.

22:38Emilia Clarke:Tony Parsons, the former Daily Mirror journalist. No, no, no. I did notice he'd been quiet recently.

22:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah. Listen, Tony Parsons, 2017, he went missing, cyclist, grandfather, cancer survivor, like this amazing human being. And these two twin brothers had accidentally knocked him down and thought that the best course of action would be to just bury him because they were like, oh, why ruin everybody else's lives, which is ridiculous. Anyway, he admits that to this woman and she starts thinking, hold on a minute. and he's like I need you to help me because they're they're gonna like start building around this area and they're gonna uncover his remains and she starts thinking oh has he picked me because I'm a pathologist definitely and anyway this is all happens this is this is out there so it's not a spoiler she does something brilliant to mark where this guy's buried she puts a she's got a Red Bull can and because it's in the vast you know Highlands in the middle of nowhere and she drops a Red Bull can and she crushes it so she can tell the police because she phones the police to say look I've got some information she does the right thing and this is about how she then has to remain in a relationship with him while they're simultaneously investigating him and trying to get him to confess to this crime now what I will say is and one of my pilot Instagram friends Richard had messaged me to say do you think that she's the most annoying person ever and she does come across as slightly irritating because she seems so pleased to be like, I don't know, it's just, there's something slightly off about her tone.

24:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:However, it is very interesting and it's really good, like, like, because she loves this person, she's come up with this, she loves this person, what does she do? She leads, she ends up leading this double life, so it's definitely worth watching.

24:23Emilia Clarke:Is that whole series about her? How many episodes?

24:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, I can't remember how many episodes, I think it's four. Just about that case? It's about this case and what happens. It's worth watching. Anyway, the other thing I've been watching which you two will go is Running Point Season 2 okay Kate Hudson

24:40Emilia Clarke:it's got brilliant people in it because when I brought it up

24:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:the last time you were like oh no no I wasn't

24:47Emilia Clarke:I watched the first episode of Season 1 and I quite enjoyed it but I didn't carry on but this has got Justin Theroux in it as well of course

24:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it has got Justin Theroux

24:53Emilia Clarke:huge bonus points

24:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:now it has got yes now Kay who I thought would like this said she didn't like it because she wanted more Justin Theroux and what I can tell you is Season 2 is absolutely tons of Justin Theroux. And not only that, and this is, sorry, if you don't know what Running Point is, Running Point is Kate Hudson takes over her family's basketball team and it's absolutely fabulous. But the brilliant thing about season two is do you know who's joined? Ray Romano.

25:19Emilia Clarke:Oh, yeah. Yes. Everyone, everybody loves Ray.

25:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And everybody does love Raymond. And he's in it as a coach and it's absolutely fantastic. I talked about it as recovery TV, but now I'm going to elevate it to just TV. It's great.

25:31Emilia Clarke:Yeah, I quite liked it. But yeah, I need to go back on one. It's a sports comedy, isn't it? It's very much up my street. Yeah, it's really good. Speaking of sports comedy, Steph.

25:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

25:41Jon Bernthal:There's something else you've been watching, isn't there?

25:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What?

25:43Jon Bernthal:Another sports comedy. Or rather, is it a comedy? That's the question. What? Tell me how Ted Lasso has been treating you.

25:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay. I'm having a difficult time at the moment. Yeah. And I'll tell you why.

25:58Jon Bernthal:What season are you on, first of all? I'm assuming the third.

26:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, I'm not. Should you know why? Because I've had a lot of trouble with Nate. Yeah. And I'm finding it really upsetting. Right. The tonal shift is really proving problematic for me. Okay, I didn't like the beard episode. Right. Right, I didn't like that episode. Yeah, I thought I would, but I didn't like that because I love the beard. There's a bit where Nate is horrible to the kit boy, and I was like and the way that was shot where it was off scene him being horrible to Kit Boy I thought oh it was like a dagger to my comedy heart I really didn't I just thought this is awful and then obviously now Ted is in a state of kind of self exploration he's having all these panic attacks and to be perfectly honest with you it's all got a bit too serious for me and I don't like it I've just finished the episode with the funeral again it's all a bit you know I've come to it for some lols.

27:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes. I've been, I feel like they, we've been walking along like this and it's, hey, hey, hey, hey, and then they've gone, bam! Yeah. No, you will, you will see the layers of these people and I don't want to.

27:10Jon Bernthal:Yeah. I don't want to. Well, because the first season is a half hour comedy and then season two is basically a 45 minute drama.

27:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's 48 minutes.

27:16Jon Bernthal:You're quite, yeah. But, and it's a different thing and I'm not saying, I don't know the exact timeline but I know Jason Sudeikis did split up with Olivia Wilde during a period of production. I think those two things do intersect to a certain extent so I'm not saying but it is a really sombre, downbeat season. And I don't think, I mean, it doesn't. It never goes back to what it was in season one. Oh, really? It never goes back to that level of comedy. I think it does rally. Like, there's definitely, and I say rally, I never thought it was bad, but I think you have to accept the evolution of the tone of the show as it goes on, where season one is one thing, season two is another thing, and season three is a third thing altogether.

27:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No.

27:52Jon Bernthal:So I think you should press on with it just to see how season three treats you.

27:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't, I didn't even like, you know, Hannah Waddingham's character getting together with Sam. I didn't enjoy that thing, you know, with the texting and then they find out it's them and then they have a little thing and then they break up at the funeral. And then even, I really didn't like Jamie Tartt and Brett Goldstein. You know, there seems to be there about to fight over Keely, who I love. I don't know. I just, I'm regretting. I'm regretting watching the last two episodes. It really put me off. Yeah, because I thought I was going to, I loved the first season. so I've got two more episodes to go of season two and I just keep going Steph well I feel it's I don't know it's not giving me the feels anymore

28:39Emilia Clarke:you are not alone I would say you're in fairly good company there yeah a lot of people found it found it a challenge it was just weird it was just a weird slightly weird what were they getting at I remember thinking I haven't rewatched or anything but I just remember at the time thinking what are they trying to get at with this character because it's such a such a turn and it's such a turn. And firstly, it's part of your comment on the dog-eat-dog world of football, you know, which is valid. It is horrendous, horrendous stuff, immoral stuff happens. But to choose that particular character was weird.

29:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think the problem is is that with it, you don't actually see any other managers. You don't see the confrontations between any kind of the dog-eat-dog world. So it just seems like But he's underappreciated, isn't he?

29:25Emilia Clarke:Isn't that the thing? He's underappreciated, right?

29:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, he started to believe his own hype. That's what happens. He started to believe his own hype and he's just turned into a right old arsehole. And then the thing is, they've brought in this sports psychologist and those scenes are too long. Because, you know, I love shrinking and that's a different show and it feels like they're trying to... I don't know, it just doesn't work for me. Well, interestingly, for the new series,

29:50Emilia Clarke:the new series is coming soon.

29:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's the girls' football team, isn't it? It's the girls,

29:52Emilia Clarke:but also he hasn't been announced as being in it at all. And now I'm assuming he may well get a cameo or wherever, but he hasn't been confirmed. Really? I believe that all the cast regulars are there apart from Nick Muhammad pretty much. But I'm sure he'll appear at some point. Maybe. Maybe they're keeping that back as a spoiler.

30:08Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'd like to know if anyone sort of gave up after season two. I think a lot of people did.

30:12Jon Bernthal:Did they? Okay, fine.

30:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:All right. Well, I'm not alone then.

30:14Jon Bernthal:No, you're not alone. But I do think it's worth, like it is worth sticking through. I really enjoyed all of it actually. But yeah, there's whiplash, definitely. Yeah.

30:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm not happy.

30:23Jon Bernthal:Well, what I've been watching is I guess twofold. I have been re-watching some of Dark Matter on Apple. Did you see Dark Matter? Boydie, I know you did, but I don't know if you finished it. I definitely didn't finish it. Right, so this is another one of their prestige-y sci-fi shows from, I want to say, last year? I think it was last year. It could have been the year before. It's really hard to say because time has no meaning, and it is a flat circle. It's basically Joel Edgerton is a man who is one night abducted by a man who looks suspiciously like himself. Oh, yeah, that one. And he is kidnapped and taken to another dimension.

30:54Jon Bernthal:Oh, yeah, that one. Another dimension. and his double from that other dimension takes over his life and starts to live with his wife and raise his son while he's marooned in this other dimension and the idea is that one of them has created this box which puts people in super position so they are essentially like as a quantum state where you can access parallel worlds and so there's infinite different worlds that he can go to and he ends up travelling the multiverse to try and get back to Jennifer Connelly

31:19Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that's a bit like that Black Mirror episode with what's his name from Breaking Bad where there's the two of them they're stuck in space do you remember? absolutely

31:26Emilia Clarke:yeah which was a terrifying episode that's a terrifying episode absolutely it's got a whole horrid thing

31:31Ebon Moss-Bachrach:do you know which one I mean

31:32Emilia Clarke:no because I don't watch

31:33Jon Bernthal:Black Mirror but yes what that's a whole other conversation oh yes don't watch Black Mirror just add it to the list of great things he doesn't watch I don't enjoy anthologies but there's some amazing

31:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:episodes of Black Mirror that you would really enjoy like you'd really enjoy that episode

31:46Jon Bernthal:I agree but it goes against TV for me it's all about long form storytelling and that is not long form storytelling therefore I don't watch it it's a whole thing don't worry about it but one day one day it's on my list it's been on the sofa list forever just because it's anyway

31:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:like you should start with that episode because you'd really like that because it basically is exactly what you've just described

32:02Jon Bernthal:it's one TV show that I wouldn't have to start at the beginning at least although I have seen the pig episode now Dark Matter based on the book by Blake Crouch it's really good I really enjoy it it's coming back in July I want to say for season two but it's also one of these things where it's been a while and because my brain has been Swiss cheesed by doing this podcast and I can't retain information I was like I can't remember what's been happening

32:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:what other multiverse does he go to so many he's got his verse yes he's got Jason 2's verse

32:33Jon Bernthal:because Jason is his name okay that's the one that the other guy came from and then there's all of the infinite other ones as well

32:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:so it's like who is the like who is the original yeah

32:42Jon Bernthal:and it takes it takes a turn towards the end as well like there's a big old there's some twisty stuff in there it's really good it's a really good it's a really good show but I'd forgotten so much and I was really looking forward to season 2 does Jason 2 think

32:54Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that he is the original Jason.

32:56Jon Bernthal:Well, there is no original. He knows he's not where he should be because he's deliberately abducted him so he can take over his life because ultimately he made a decision that he regrets and he's able to reverse that decision by stealing the life of someone who made the correct decision, if that makes sense.

33:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It sort of does, yeah.

33:12Jon Bernthal:It's quite cool.

33:14Emilia Clarke:I think it arrived at a time where multiverses were everywhere. Well, Constellation, the new mirror past show, also on Apple, was the same year. Yes, I would totally have got those mixed up. And that's another multiversal story. Yeah, and then also in the fit, it was like the Marvel had gone down the whole multiverse route. It was just a bit too many multiverses.

33:29Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, no, I'm a fan of a multiverse.

33:31Emilia Clarke:Yeah, I like a multiverse. Interesting, because you're not a fan of...

33:33Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Starting again. Post-apocalypse. That's not a multiverse, though, is it?

33:37Emilia Clarke:So a multiverse post-apocalypse is fine. Yeah. As long as they're not starting again.

33:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't know if it was part of like four other multiverses, then I'd accept it.

33:45Emilia Clarke:Oh my God, she's got a minimal multiverse formula for what is acceptable. That's good to know.

33:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In Running Point 2, they have this thing where they have, she has these kind of sex dreams. And I know it's going somewhere.

33:55Jon Bernthal:Running Point is definitely not part of the multipass. Well, hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Wow, is it taking a turn? Now I'm interested.

34:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She has all these sex dreams about J. Ellis, who is gorgeous, who was the former coach. And they're in, and they appear, they're in like the set of Dune. And it's really, really random. So hang on,

34:12Jon Bernthal:Kay Hudson is having sex dreams about Dune. This sounds like my weekend. Carry on.

34:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She's having sex dreams about J. Ellis. J. Ellis?

34:22Jon Bernthal:Jesus Christ so Dune JLS and sex dreams this show is wild

34:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:J. Ellis J.

34:30Jon Bernthal:Ellis okay he's an actor J.

34:31Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Ellis the actor he's a great actor what's he been in? I'll look him up don't worry Top Gun and whatchamacallit's amazing show which I can never remember the name of this is to send it

34:42Emilia Clarke:into farce anyway she keeps having

34:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:sex dreams about him where she's they're both in June

34:48Emilia Clarke:wow I can't believe you talk about burying the lead if you're going to mention a show that's got any kind of June element in it in front of James that's the first thing you mention forget about the rest of it it's the June thing

35:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:if you would like to watch some sci-fi sex streams then you need to watch Running Point season 2 it's not even a question okay wow

35:10Jon Bernthal:oh okay that's a thing I don't know quite how we got onto JLS but sure and the other thing I have been watching is Punisher One Last Kill which is the one-off TV event, which is not a movie. It's less than an hour. Not a film. Oh, it's less than an hour. And it's on Disney+. It is a single episode of The Punisher, so we should be covering it on this podcast, but for reasons unknown, we are reviewing it on The Empire podcast instead. Of course you are. I don't fully understand why, but we are. But I watched it this morning.

35:38Emilia Clarke:Am I more than reviewing it? He did review it, yeah, it's true.

35:40Jon Bernthal:BAFTA attending. Oh, don't even start with me. So, yes, I'm going to go full Punisher on that, the next BAFTAs. it's quite I would say plot light but deliberately so so the set up is is the one of Frank like Frank a load of killers come for Frank and so it turns into like the raid so it's just like in this apartment building and it is so violent and so bloody and it's mainly just him bellowing and being traumatised and then just murderising hundreds of people but it's I mean it's great it's really great I really enjoyed it so that was great and also it's written by John Berthold it's written by John Berthold oh he wrote it he wrote it yeah Wow.

36:18Jon Bernthal:He's getting his finger out, isn't he?

36:19Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He's getting his pen out.

36:21Jon Bernthal:And this is an excellent segue into the fact that that's not the only thing that John Bernthal wrote recently, because he also wrote Gary. Yes. Sorry, just ending a section with the word Gary there. He also wrote Gary, the spin-off guerrilla episode of The Bear, which I spoke to him about when I interviewed him and Evan Moss-Bachrag on Friday night. That's right.

36:42Emilia Clarke:And luckily for you, you didn't just say the two-hander Gary. Yeah. She said, Gary, explain what it was. It was just the best I was doing.

36:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Can I come back to Jay Ellis for one minute? Oh, my God. We should just mention it's insecure. I always seem to forget. You know, Issa Rae's amazing comedy, which is one of the greatest comedies ever. I recognise him. Yeah, he's Lawrence. Oh, OK.

37:01Jon Bernthal:Oh, he's so hot. Is it OK if John and Eben talk now? Is that that good? Oh, God, I'm sorry. Sorry, was that an intro? Yeah, yeah. You know, we've got celebrities here waiting to talk to the listeners, but you're banging on about JLS. That's my fault.

37:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:J.L.S.

37:14Jon Bernthal:Unbelievable. Does Jay Ellis know that there's a man called Jay Ellis? Our first guests this week are John Bernthal, the Punisher himself, and Eben Moss-Batright, cousin, which is very exciting because they wrote the surprise episode of Bear, Gary, which dropped into our feeds last week, completely without warning, very, very exciting. Fascinated by this entire endeavour, I leapt onto a call with both Eben and John to kind of find out how it all came about. So I should say there isn't a spoiler in here for the end of the episode because some stuff happens. We do talk about some scenes and some conversations.

37:48Jon Bernthal:It's not really a spoiler, but I would say if you want to go into Gary cold, then, you know, just bear that in mind. So here is me talking to John Bernthal and Emma Moss-Bachrack about Gary.

38:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Bear that in mind.

38:06Wow.

38:07Jon Bernthal:Thanks very much for coming on the show. And thank you very much for dropping this show. It was a lovely surprise to have in the middle of the week. we should have more gorilla drops from our favorite shows i'd like that it'd make the whole week a lot better it's fun right it's kind of thrilling though it's great and i love the fact that it's it's it's kind of its own thing like it's not uh sort of episode naught of season five it's not the end of season four like it's its own entity it's just gary was that always like the plan when you did this or did it come to you quite late to sort of do this as a kind of a gorilla

38:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:drop we never really knew i mean because it exists in its own thing and it's not sort of there's not plot points or story points that are neat. So we were never really sure where it was going to fit. And frankly, we are not allowed to make those decisions. I had this completely impractical and romantic idea that I wanted it to exist like a hidden track, like somewhere in season four, season five, where like the episode would end, there'd be a credit sequence and then 10 minutes of a black screen and then this thing would just start. I probably got, you know, laughed out of the room. You're a fucking idiot.

39:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But so that's, I think the spirit of that is why we had it as a sort of unannounced thing. I think, I don't know, people talk about things so much and there's so much PR and so much hype machine

39:24Jon Bernthal:that it's just to just sort of put something out there. It was really fun and refreshing, kind of in the spirit, the gorilla spirit of the bear. 100 yeah which i think is lovely and there's there's nothing about this whole thing that i don't love just the whole idea of it the setting of it you know because we've heard briefly about this legendary road trip to gary i think in season three and in season four i think it's come up yeah that's right yeah like and and was was that was the sort of the germ of that story what what puts this in your minds was that the was that the jumping off point like did it come out of a conversation about the characters or did you guys literally just like the idea of working together

39:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:them all kind of both to be honest with you you know we we really did you know we went to chris we've known each other a long time we're enormously close and and uh you know the only reason you know that i get to come visit and play around on the bear you know a little bit every year is because eban you know he brought me over there such a such a gift and i love it so much and and and you know we went to chris together and sort of pitched an idea of you know just a few scenes to maybe include you know, in this season of the two of us together and to really kind of like dig in a little bit to like the friendship and what it was about.

40:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And, you know, then Chris kind of answered us with saying, well, like, why don't you guys just write an episode, which is a real testament to the kind of artist he is and really a window into the spirit of the show and how it's made. You know, it's such a collaborative show. It's always such a really profound, enormous joy for me to head over there for a week and then to also watch the show and be a fan of the show. But, you know, I have to say, you know, we came up with this, you know, really with very few bumps in the road. We kind of knew exactly what we wanted to do. Again, we know and trust each other really well.

41:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and I found often the things that I kind of dig the most and love the most are the things that sort of come the easiest and don't have a lot of conflict. We never were in a place with this piece where we were up against a deadline where we were like, shit, we got to turn something into FX. You know, we kind of, you know, Chris told us, hey, you guys got the green light and we immediately kind of jumped on it and we had something really quick and, you know, what you saw is what we wrote and and and and really it it um we really did not the the hardest piece of the puzzle was when we were going to do it kind of schedule wise but we knew what we wanted this to be and and i

41:56Jon Bernthal:think we're both really proud of it what was your process for this like because i mean you as you say you've worked together unless you're on the stage at the moment together right so like but did you each take each other's characters did you send stuff back and forth did you sit together and do it like how did you actually put it together because i guess you both must feel a certain protective sort of paternal feeling to your individual characters when you're doing these

42:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:things yeah there is a possessiveness of our characters but i think that to john's point you know there's a lot of trust between the two of us and there's very few people that i would i'm very happy for him to put words in my mouth you know what i mean like i and i trust him and he is a sounding board and you know even this this play that we're doing you know that we're going to do in a few hours you know uh he's like maybe one of two people that i'll listen to in

42:41Jon Bernthal:terms of ideas about things.

42:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So, um, but just practically to answer your question, really, um, we were workshopping this play last summer. And so we would go back after rehearsing, we would go back to john's hotel room and just, you know, talk about different scenes, just have an idea brainstorming. And then he had the clerical, he's got final draft. So he would sort of take all of our ideas and format it and put it into is sort of a cohesive, acceptable thing. I would write scenes, but I write scenes on like the back of like a brown paper bag or something. And there's trend, there's drawings on it. And it looks like Chris, Chris always says that, like my notes and my things always seem like they've been like smuggled out of prison.

43:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And then, you know, after our workshop ended, and we're in different parts of the world, there was just constant, a lot of emails, but actually more more phone

43:35Jon Bernthal:conversations back and forth and ideas and just and then little screenshots of my prison smuggled

43:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:scratching so far scenes and um and then chris helped chris had notes for drafts and you know notes from the network and all that stuff but again like john said pretty pretty painless pretty

43:53Jon Bernthal:easy birth it's also like fresh territory isn't it because i feel like because rich is interesting he's got the biggest arc of anyone on the show and he's very different when we leave him in season four from when we met him in season one but where we have him here he's in a different place altogether because you feel there's a lightness to him right like there's a there's it feels like the weight that we're so used to him carrying on his shoulders isn't yet there so and and Mikey obviously he casts this shadow over the whole show like he haunts essentially the whole show and I wondered is that you know an interesting place to play as a playground because it's somewhere you've not really been able to be before oh James that's so that's such a great question

44:30Ebon Moss-Bachrach:um i'm so glad you saw that stuff i'm like i'm always interested in like in like joy you know and and you know in that in that forks episode in season two you know when we finally get to see this guy celebrate after he's been in such a tunnel for so long and he sees a little bit of light you know and he has this real explosion of of purpose and you know and he's singing and he's like jumping and like you know he's doing like street fighter two like moves and things but he um, so, you know, don't we all want to know like what moves people and what people are chasing and what their dreams are. I think that's so compelling to see like, what is your fantasy?

45:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Like what are or conversely? What are you mourning? Like, what was this thing that when you lost your whole life went into like such darkness? Like what was the what was the song?

45:22Jon Bernthal:What was that? It's such it's very fun to be in that world. No. I mean, it is fun, but there is one scene in this which I would say is quite hard to watch, and it's towards the end when Mikey, let's say, unloads to a certain point. You know, it starts one way and it takes a very hard left turn, and it's quite an extraordinary scene. And I wondered, you know, where did you, John, think that Mikey's head was at there? Because it feels like, you know, it's, I think we're three years from Mikey's death at this point, chronologically speaking, but it feels like he's very much on the downslope at this point.

45:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Very much. I mean, I think there's a lot of clues. It's been such an interesting exercise for me over these past five years to, again, come in sort of for one week every year and sort of like be part of creating sort of this buoy in the water that kind of tells his story. And sometimes you see this sort of unbelievable storyteller with this great smile who's infectious and larger than life and the guy you want to be around. And sometimes you see this guy who's in so much pain and so ugly. But one thing that I'm quite sure of is that he knew where he was headed. And he knew there was really no getting out of it.

46:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I'm quite certain of that. And I think that's quite palpable kind of in this piece. And I think, you know, again, what's really interesting for me and something that we, you know, we really set out to do and I think was really effective is, you know, he really articulately and kind of cogently in that bathroom describes, you know, specifically and perfectly exactly what his kind of ailment is and the way that his mind, how, you know, and really he puts it out there. He explains his hopelessness that he has this thing and it is never going to go away. And, you know, again, like this, this, this piece is a memory piece.

47:23Ebon Moss-Bachrach:This is Richie's memory. So did he actually have that conversation with this stranger? Is that the conversation that Richie wishes he had with him? Is it a conversation that, you know, that never existed at all that maybe Mikey didn't know how to express those things, but Richie wishes that he did. You know, it leaves all these questions. You know, That's my favorite thing as an audience member and as a creator is to sort of like ask the questions and don't necessarily answer them. But I will say, I think that there was sort of this directive and this thing that we wanted to do, because when we were writing this, you know, for me, at least, it was very much like kind of in the wake of the Fishes episode and Donna's big blow up.

48:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And, you know, there is this sort of like beautiful, understated, hereditary thing that exists in this family and this specific kind of, you know, psychology and mindset and depression and hopelessness. And, you know, we wanted it to sort of resemble that in some way, but we didn't want it to be this major kind of like physical, you know, we did not want it. We'd already seen the car go through the living room, you know, and what we did want to do is we wanted to, you know, through that kind of like scorched earth, you know, metaphor. We wanted these guys, you know, to have words with each other and say things to each other that would be seared, you know, seared into Richie forever.

48:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And to really dig into the wound of, man, I wish that would have been different. I wish I had never said that. I wish he had never said that. I wish I had said this. I wish I had done this. Maybe I did do something I wish I hadn't done. And I just know from losing people, like that's the thing. You constantly ask yourself those questions. And I think that that's what makes the show, you know, so deep and rich is, you know, they really dig into these wounds.

49:15Jon Bernthal:Yeah, fantastic. Well, I mean, the episode really lands. It's a great episode of The Bear. And thank you very much for giving that to us and for talking to us today. It's much appreciated. Thank you. Thanks so much. Right. that was Eben Moss Bacharach and John Bernthal and we move on now to this week's news what have we got in the world of news Boydie

49:35Emilia Clarke:well it was the BAFTAs on Sunday oh god I wouldn't know I'm just going to mention a few there weren't really I would say there weren't really many if any big surprises but there were a couple I would say in drama series was a surprise because the nominees were a thousand blows remember the period drama about the boxing and the women female gang Stephen Graham etc Blue Lights which is brilliant I had a nice chat with Blue Lights people creators at the BAFTAs and told them how much we love the show which I think we're aware of as well The City is Ours The City is Ours which is the brilliant Liverpool set gangster drama which was really good but the winner was Code of Silence remember Code of Silence?

50:18Emilia Clarke:Yes which to be fair

50:19Jon Bernthal:and a lot of our listeners were like we should have spent more time talking about that and we liked it as I recall but people thought it was absolutely incredible and they were upset that it wasn't on our shows of the year list. Oh, really? Oh, this is the first time I've heard of it.

50:29Emilia Clarke:I must pay more attention. Yes, yes, you must. It was the Rose Ailing Ellis, anyway, thing about where she used her deafness to help the police lip-read criminals. And it was really good. But I think it was a surprise, I would say it was a surprise that it won all of those top-level dramas. I mean, you know, I'm not saying it didn't deserve to win, but I definitely think it was a surprise. A Thousand Blows has won previous awards, I think, won the RTS awards, etc. The big winner of the night was, of course, Adolescence. Of course. Which won four awards. I know four awards doesn't sound like much, but actually that's the record number of awards in one BAFTA show ever.

51:03Emilia Clarke:So it won three acting awards and it won Best Limited Drama, beating I Fault the Law, which is the Sheridan Smith show, Trespasses, which is the Irish drama on Channel 4, and What It Feels Like for a Girl.

51:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, I do love What It Feels Like for a Girl.

51:16Emilia Clarke:Yeah, very good. International was good because that had six brilliant shows nominated. The Bear, the aforementioned The Bear, The Diplomat, our favourite Pilot TV favourite Puribus another Pilot TV favourite Friends of the Show

51:30Ebon Moss-Bachrach:okay I haven't watched Puribus but yeah Friends of the Show

51:32Emilia Clarke:Severance can't beat it Steph hates it everyone else loves it that's your widow's bag The White Lotus you may have heard of it and the winner The Studio

51:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which hasn't it won

51:44Emilia Clarke:like more awards than anything in history

51:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:quite right too

51:47Emilia Clarke:it's been it's probably like the most nominated at least show of the year and it's doing really well winning for a show which is considered inside baseball and very industry a lot of people say about it it's fascinating and Seth Rogen was there

52:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it's Seth though isn't it he's so brilliant

52:04Emilia Clarke:I thought his speech was brilliant you know but he was also I went to an Apple party by the way the day before just so I didn't see James this was a BAFTA party no this was a pre-BAFTA party a pre-BAFTA party that you were invited to by Apple TV Plus this was an Apple TV lunch brunch a brunch like when they do like an Oscars brunch exactly did you see me there? I didn't see you. Do you know why that is, Boyd? Why was that? Because I'm fucking invited. What a shame. I know. Anyway, it was very glamorous. And he was there. Seth Rogen was there milling around. There's no absolute care in the world.

52:37Emilia Clarke:He's great though, isn't he? Yeah, he's fantastic. Adam Scott was there from Severance. Oh, Adam Scott. Yeah, it was properly star-studded. I love him in Big Little Lies. I had a nice show with Jim Field-Smith, the showrunner of Hijack. Hijack. We were talking about that. Anyway, that was at the party. his acceptance speech was so funny because all the way through people were talking about celebrity traitors and the legendary fart yeah

52:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:right

53:00Emilia Clarke:Imelda Staunton no

53:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Celia Imri even I know that even James says that I don't know why I've got Imelda Staunton in my head you're both great actresses

53:08Jon Bernthal:Celia Imri

53:08Emilia Clarke:was in The Phantom Menace it's the only reason I know of course Celia Imri was there at the Royal Festival you know and the loads of jokes being made about her fart etc and Alan Carl winning etc and Seth Rowan comes to the stage she accepts him and goes and he goes, what weird award show this is. Half the night has been jokes about that poor actress and her fart. It's like, yeah, this is a very British, unusual situation. It was so funny. The other thing was the host, Greg Davis, between, you know, when hosts of award shows, when they invite the people on to read out the nominees and do that whole bit, they then go to the side, right?

53:42Emilia Clarke:They stand at the side and they let the thing play or they walk off stage or whatever. What he did, and it was weird, I have to say, he had a seat at the edge of the stage and he went and sat down and watched the proceedings of the nominees being announced and the winner from his little seat and sure enough Seth Rogen said I've never been to an award show before where the host has a little seat and I was like oh I'm great I think he was feeling

54:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:a little fragile I'm looking at an observation

54:04Emilia Clarke:so then I think he suggested he said that maybe in a future episode of the studio there'll be an award show with someone sitting down at the side who knows anyway he was very good I won't go into all the award winners because James will get annoyed with me and we'll take too much time but it was a super fun night and I was particularly overjoyed to see Alan Partridge won Steve Coogan won for his performance as Alan Partridge in How Are You? It's Alan Partridge and he flew back from filming The White Lotus to accept his award and then went straight back to and of course he was a guest on this very show I interviewed him which was in the episode that went out last week and he said at the end of that he was jetting off to do The White Lotus so in the middle of his hectic schedule he managed to accept his award.

54:51Emilia Clarke:And I think he was asked about the Helena Bonham Carter controversy by the press afterwards. And he said something like, I'm paraphrasing, something like it just wasn't working out. Like he was basically saying. What a gent. Yeah, a gent, a gent as ever. So that's what I'll say about the BAFTAs. I won't go on too long because you weren't there and you weren't invited. Okay. Thank you, Rob.

55:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Did you read that Conan's going to do the Oscars again? Yes. You did.

55:12Emilia Clarke:That's good news.

55:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That is good news. So 99th Oscars, I think it is, isn't it?

55:16Emilia Clarke:Yeah. Is it the last one before? Because soon YouTube will be taking over.

55:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think it is the last one before the YouTube takeover of the broadcast. Yeah. But yeah, so he's going to do it again. So he did it this year and it was okay, wasn't it?

55:31Emilia Clarke:I love him anyway. Yeah, I mean, I like Conan. Even when a Conan O 'Brien joke doesn't quite work, you're still quite happy that he went for it, is my favourite about him always. And he does, and my hard and fast rule, if I have any influence over these things, is every and any award show should be hosted by a comedian. and Greg Davis proved that again he was funny at the BAFTAs and don't get an actor to do it it never works when you get an actor you have to be a full on comedian and sure enough Conan O 'Brien is one of our great almost comedians one of our great comedians the world oh I see the global community

56:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:speaking as a global citizen right exactly Reacher has been renewed Reacher has been renewed

56:07Emilia Clarke:for season 5 this is called the main news story for James

56:10Ebon Moss-Bachrach:the main news story renewed for season 5 even though season 4 has not dropped

56:14Emilia Clarke:yes

56:15Jon Bernthal:it's dropping soon though isn't it it is dropping soon It's going to be soon, yes. But we've got, you know, more Reacher. I don't think this was ever in doubt. Like, it's a massive hit for Prime. It is like the crown in their... It is the jewel in their dadcore crown. The crown in their dadcore jewel, whatever you want. But yeah, it's... I mean, I have issues with it. I think he is perfect casting. I think he is great. I think that it needs some script polish. That's my... I really love season one. Season one, very few notes. I think it's great. I think season two and season three have both had wobbles.

56:46Jon Bernthal:so I'm interested to see what the new season is I never went do you know what I never went back to season 3

56:50Emilia Clarke:after the first couple episodes

56:51Jon Bernthal:did you not yeah it wasn't the best but I still enjoyed it but yeah but I'm excited about this okay shockingly we're talking renewals Harry Potter has been renewed for a second season ahead of the first who saw that coming I can't who can believe it I can't believe it it's astonishing

57:08Emilia Clarke:Nick Frost and Papa S.E.A. who gave away an order to the BAFTAs as well does co-stars of the Harry Potter show

57:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh he's about Paris Radio in Harry Potter I didn't know he was in there he's Professor Snape is he how did I miss that

57:20Emilia Clarke:I don't know because we talked about it on this very show and it's almost like when you're not on it you don't listen to it it sort of feels like that

57:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which is obviously not the case at all oh

57:30Emilia Clarke:Nick Frost with a fully cropped head which I guess is because he's had the Hagrid week I presume yeah

57:37Jon Bernthal:you know what else is coming what the Lord of the Rings the Rings of the Lord it's got a date it's the 11th of November season 3 Boydie how excited are you? I mean I beside myself

57:47Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I actually wrote that down I wrote that down November season 3 Lord of the Rings Rings of Facts I have to say I do think it's a strange name Lord of the Rings

57:55Jon Bernthal:The Rings of the Lord

57:56Emilia Clarke:It is ridiculous

57:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It is isn't it It's silly

57:59Emilia Clarke:That's why I make fun of the name Because it's the Lord of the Thing The Thing of the Thing Yeah it's unnecessary

58:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah

58:06Emilia Clarke:Very New York Jewish comedian there Yeah I was taking an impression of Mel Brooks or something The Thing of the Thing Anyway anyway

58:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:have you guys seen the picture of my beloved Glenn Close

58:18Emilia Clarke:yes yes were you

58:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:okay so sorry Channel 4 drama okay so she's going to be in Up to No Good and the Channel 4 is based on Helene Turston's short story collections and elderly ladies Up to No Good and An Elderly Lady Must Not Be Crossed six part drama and she is starring as Maud Oldcastle and the picture is great it was originally

58:42Emilia Clarke:called Maud

58:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh was it yeah looks fantastic and obviously like she's going close she can do no she's a killer right

58:50Emilia Clarke:she's a

58:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:is she a killer oh my god yeah I believe

58:55Emilia Clarke:that's the thing yeah

58:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yeah she looks amazing

58:58Emilia Clarke:can I tell you

58:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yes please

59:00Emilia Clarke:the I do love a chart of a ratings chart and the American ratings Nielsen who do all the various ratings let's talk them all out they have a top 20 of you Do you know what the biggest, the most watched show of the year so far is, according to Nielsen? This is across all networks and streamers and everything. Foundation.

59:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:K-pop Demon Hunters.

59:24Emilia Clarke:No. That's not a show? This is a TV show. TV series.

59:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:A TV, TV, the most watched.

59:29Emilia Clarke:Most watched TV series of the year so far, according to, across all.

59:32Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is it globally?

59:34Emilia Clarke:No, this is America.

59:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In America.

59:36Emilia Clarke:Yeah.

59:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In America, Bridgerton.

59:40Emilia Clarke:Close. Bridgerton is number four. Who?

59:43Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

59:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Good guess.

59:45Jon Bernthal:And this is just, this is so far in 2026? Yes.

59:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Adolescence.

59:51Emilia Clarke:No. That was last year. I think it's new to this year. Starting this year. Oh, sorry. And being on this year.

59:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm getting this all wrong. I mean, no, it's fine.

59:58Emilia Clarke:This is the world's most boring quiz. Boy, do you tell us the answer. His and hers.

1:00:03Jon Bernthal:Oh, my God. His and hers. Oh, isn't that brilliant?

1:00:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm so angry I didn't guess it. I'm so upset that I did not guess it.

1:00:12Jon Bernthal:Yes, because it's so thrilling and entertaining.

1:00:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is it?

1:00:17Jon Bernthal:It does star my close personal friend, Jon Bernthal.

1:00:19Emilia Clarke:It does, in a preposterous role, among many preposterous roles. It's not preposterous. But I love it. I saw this headline. I was like, that is so brilliant. I was so sad. Because it does sum up. We often say, well, we often say it. I think, you know, what Netflix really, really want is a limited series of the most bonkers crime idea they can possibly think of. It's not bonkers. It could totally happen. And if you and I, Steph, try and come up with the most ridiculous scenario that we possibly can, I think we can get a commission from Netflix to do a nutty story.

1:00:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I've told you I'm available at all times to do it. I definitely could.

1:00:52Emilia Clarke:And just to say, the other entries in the top ten are almost all from Taylor Sheraton. So number two is Marshalls. Number three is Landman.

1:01:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Landman is great.

1:01:02Emilia Clarke:Billy Bob Thornton. Exactly. The Madison is at ten.

1:01:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah.

1:01:09Emilia Clarke:I find it really interesting what's big in America at the moment. So Bridgerton is number four. Still absolutely one of Netflix's biggest shows. And you know the other show that's doing really well, which I was surprised about? is High Potential. Yes. That's very popular. Huge. It's a decent procedural, that is. Yeah. And The Pit, seven, which is good news. So yeah, Fallout 8, now I'm doing the whole top ten. Fallout 8, Fallout in my mind is a flop, but it's doing very, very well.

1:01:33Jon Bernthal:No, it's very, very popular. I just don't like it. You don't like it. It makes almost no sense that I don't like it, but here we are.

1:01:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is that a video game? It's a video game adaptation. It's a sci-fi.

1:01:43Jon Bernthal:It's post-apocalyptic. It's all of these things, but the tone and the retrofuturism turns me off. I don't know what to tell you.

1:01:49Emilia Clarke:Lincoln Lawyer at nine and The Madison at ten.

1:01:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Lincoln Lawyer is good. Is it? Do you watch, yes it is, Widow's Bay. Yes.

1:01:57Emilia Clarke:Let's call him Widow's Bay now.

1:01:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's what I'm going to call him now every time. Every time he goes against me.

1:02:02Jon Bernthal:Every time I'm wrong about something.

1:02:04Emilia Clarke:Lincoln Lawyer is great. Do you know what? One more heartwarming entry in the top 20 I'll mention is the American version of Ghosts. It's at 14. And it is, I heard someone say this on the radio the other day, Ghosts is one of the big triumphs of recent years. Because everyone was saying the American sitcom is dead, but Ghosts, ironically, and, you know, pun intended, is a massive hit in America. And it's now become one of the shows that has, you know, loads and loads of episodes every season. And it's, you know, it's like that was a lovely, cheap and cheerful six-parter on BBC Two, I think. Well, there's a film coming.

1:02:32Emilia Clarke:And a film on it as well, yeah.

1:02:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well done, Ghosts.

1:02:35Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Well done, Ghosts. What else have we got? Ahsoka. We have a date. Well, we don't actually have a date. We have a vague date. So early 2027 is when Ahsoka Season 2 will arrive. That'll be four years after Ahsoka season one. I don't remember what Ahsoka is. Ahsoka is a Star Wars show on Disney +, starring Rosario Dawson as... They recommissioned that? Yeah, it's coming back. Clearly Boyd's excited. Wow.

1:02:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't think I knew that either. Four years.

1:02:59Jon Bernthal:That's insane. So if you call yourself a Star Wars fan,

1:03:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:for shame. Don't, don't ever doubt my Star... Don't ever, Widow's Bay, doubt my Star Wars allegiance. But yeah, why have I missed that?

1:03:12Jon Bernthal:It's hard to say. Well, various reasons, probably. Yeah. Well, anyway, it's coming back early next year. Okay. Which is quite a way. There are four live-action Fast and Furious TV series in the works of Peacock. Vin Diesel's producing. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

1:03:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Wow, people love it. I was only watching Fast and Furious at the weekend and thinking, surely there's another film coming out any second. Well, no, I would just say people on the ground, you know, the people that actually are watching television all the time, they love all that Fast and the Furious stuff. Don't they? Four, absolutely four.

1:03:44Emilia Clarke:I had to say bollocks.

1:03:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It was, but it's not bollocks. They love that bollocks. It's not, though, is it? It's entertaining.

1:03:50Jon Bernthal:Entertaining bollocks. Yeah. Sir Ben Kingsley. Oh, yeah, this is good.

1:03:54Emilia Clarke:Has been cast in The White Lotus? Yeah. Fantastic. The cast just gets better and better and better.

1:03:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Why do they... How... Why are they getting all these people, do you think? Because it's such a brilliant show. People want to be part of it. They just want to be part of it. This sounds like...

1:04:05Emilia Clarke:There's a number of star names playing. It sounds like the biggest cast yet of the show because we're used to having, what, four, maybe four kind of groupings who are the core elements of each White Lotus series. But this feels like it's got about 50 major cast members. Because another actor was announced alongside Ben Kingsley, right? It's possible. I don't know who it is. No, I haven't got that piece of information.

1:04:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know what? When is Sugar coming, James? The Sci-Cry?

1:04:30Jon Bernthal:Oh, that's coming quite soon. It's coming quite soon. You could watch it now if you wanted to. But, you know, it's around season one. Oh, I see. I'm just saying. Oh, really? I'm not allowed to talk about it. I get in trouble when I talk about watching shows which are not available. Oh, I've got it. So I've stopped doing that.

1:04:44Emilia Clarke:Yeah, alongside Ben Kingsley, Max Minghella from Industry. Max Minghella, who's absolutely phenomenal in Industry, is in it as well. And I think there, I'm thinking, he must have seen him in Industry because he was so good in the series. He was one of the real, like he really drove it forward by being the absolute maniac that he was in that show. So yeah, I'm excited about that.

1:05:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What do you mean I can watch it now? I don't know what you mean.

1:05:05Emilia Clarke:He means on the Apple TV preview.

1:05:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't have that.

1:05:08Jon Bernthal:Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. I forgot you were. You are one of the pogs. For the 700th time,

1:05:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I do not have VIP Apple privileges.

1:05:16Jon Bernthal:We're banned from talking about this. This is like a taboo subject because it upsets people. They don't like us talking about screening portals. I'm never going to mention it again. Never. Never again. Let's move on. That was the end of news. I think we're done with that. Should we have another guest? Let's have another guest because next up we have the unburnt Queen of the Andals and the Roinar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons. or just Amelia as she prefers to be known Amelia Clark is of course the star of Ponies which we're going to talk about in a little bit and it's a 70s set Cold War spy thriller well kind of like a comedy thriller to be honest that sees her thrust into the secret services after her husband is killed in Moscow now Amelia was in about an hour ago sitting Boydie right where you are now in that chair

1:06:00Emilia Clarke:first of all anything about this he doesn't say anything he doesn't get invited to the BAFTAs

1:06:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:no I know honey he does a secret

1:06:08Emilia Clarke:special superstar interviews behind our backs. She came in to see me. I don't know what to tell you.

1:06:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I was in and you didn't even say Steph, come down. We've got a meeting. Yeah, that's true.

1:06:16Emilia Clarke:It's true.

1:06:18Jon Bernthal:He didn't want you there. He wanted his time with the media on your back. He was one-on-one. That's it. That's it. We had a lovely chat about ponies and Game of Thrones and Columbo. Yeah. And do you know what she brought up? Do you know what she brought up? Murder, She Wrote. True story. Are you serious? Do you know what?

1:06:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:When this is finished, you and I can have a little chat. All right?

1:06:40Emilia Clarke:Are you calling off that re-watch? A little chat.

1:06:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right? You know what I mean, don't you? Yeah. Yeah, okay.

1:06:46Jon Bernthal:Anyway, this is me chatting to Amelia Clark about ponies and not, crucially, Gary. Well, Amelia, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. This came out quite a few months ago, didn't it, in the States?

1:06:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In the States it did, yes.

1:06:58Jon Bernthal:So were you thinking, I'm kind of done. My publicity's finished, my tour is finished, I'm free.

1:07:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, I did wonder. I did wonder. But no, we did all of the America Press, and then I went to New Zealand and shot a film, came back to UK Press for Ponies. Yes. So it's quite lovely. I've had a deep refresh.

1:07:18Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

1:07:18Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And so it's quite lovely now to go to talk about this again.

1:07:21Jon Bernthal:Well, actually, I was going to ask that. Like, how do you ever get used to the publicity circuit of this? Because it's a very different job to your main job, right? Yeah. It's a totally different skill set. And then if you are, as you were, kind of thrust into something huge quite early on, that's a baptism by fire isn't it?

1:07:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It is but somehow I always felt like the press was what I was good at like I'd struggle in the acting they'd be like put me on camera I can have a chat yeah I like talking so it's never and it was always I like people I'm curious I want to have conversations with people so for me press never felt intimidating Right

1:08:02Jon Bernthal:I mean you're lucky because that's quite unusual I think

1:08:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:deeply unusual I mean, like, obviously when you've got, like, the very serious press, it's a different thing. And you get more and more used to it. But then there's so much pressure when you're filming something. When I was younger, there definitely was. You feel so much the weight of the responsibility on your shoulders. And it is serious and it is important and it is difficult. And you've been up since three and it's hard. And then you get to do press and you're like, that's just nice. We can just talk. Yeah. And you're like, you're walking into someone else's place of work. and you're sort of the novelty for a second and then you get to go home.

1:08:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So it's, I've never, yeah, I've always had a nice time doing press, which is very weird for an actor.

1:08:44Jon Bernthal:But also it's lovely to have the variety because I imagine doing press for something like this is a million miles away from doing something like Thrones or Star Wars or Marvel where it's a machine.

1:08:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Massively, yes, yes.

1:08:54Jon Bernthal:And like 30 publicists on your every word to make sure you don't say the wrong thing.

1:08:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, exactly, yes. But I'm also someone who does sort of say things without thinking.

1:09:04Jon Bernthal:Well, that's the best kind of interview, isn't it? Yeah.

1:09:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Publicist is like, too late. She's already said it. I can't stop that. But no, the nice thing about this is unlike those big juggernauts where no one person in any of those projects is bigger than the IP itself, this is something that is created by people I love. Like now I love them and now I've known them, we've worked together and they asked me to come on and be a part of the creative process. So it feels, you sort of, I don't know, it's wonderful to be able to talk about because you're like, oh my God, this thing that we made is now being spoken about and people are watching it. And how wonderful is that?

1:09:45Jon Bernthal:And it feels like you make a difference, like you're actually kind of getting people to watch it. Whereas I guess with the big machine, it's less about the people than, as you say, the IP kind of sells itself.

1:09:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly. Whereas with this, I'm like, pop it on in the background.

1:09:56Jon Bernthal:Just keep it on me. It doesn't matter.

1:09:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just play it. Just have it be streamed. but the most important thing

1:10:02Jon Bernthal:about this project is twofold one you shot in Budapest I did how long were you there for? six months six months now did at any point during those six months you make the obligatory pilgrimage to the Columbo statue no I'm sensing no oh my god what did I say so does anyone know this there is a bronze statue of Peter Falk scratching his head with dog life size to scale in the middle of a street just in the oh my god I have like six Columbo jackets

1:10:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:in my ward literally to the point where I'm like where's that Columbo jacket like that's how I my nan used to watch him all the time you missed a trick you could have taken a picture

1:10:34Jon Bernthal:with Peter sent it to your nan oh my god

1:10:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:she's no longer with us well

1:10:38Jon Bernthal:she would have approved if you had she would have approved

1:10:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yeah it was that and Murder She Wrote

1:10:41Jon Bernthal:oh fair enough that's what I'll watch it I mean it's genuinely brilliant because it's that's incredible now but also the story of it is so it's on hang on it is on Mixer Falk sort of Mixer Falk street okay and Mixer Falk was a I believe a Hungarian politician and the only thing he shares with Peter Falk is his surname they're not related they have nothing to do with each other but that is the statue that is put up in the room. Wow. Yeah. So that's Budapest Great Choice Attraction.

1:11:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm wondering if I have seen that statue and I thought it was a Hungarian politician.

1:11:09Jon Bernthal:Maybe. With a dog. Yeah. With a dog. But actually, no, it's Colombo.

1:11:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Really?

1:11:14Jon Bernthal:Yeah, true story. If you ever go back, chuck it down.

1:11:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I need my money back from that walking tour.

1:11:17Jon Bernthal:You definitely do. You definitely do. But look, look, look, look. You did a little TV show that very few people had heard of called Game of Thrones. Yes. That was about, what, seven years ago that that all finished?

1:11:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah. Um, it was 10 years, and the last bit of it was, for me, the last Emmys was 2019. Right. So we probably wrapped in 2018.

1:11:42Jon Bernthal:But it was 10 years of your whole life, right, taken up on that. And that's a lot of commitment, which TV can be. Yes. And obviously, you've done Secret Invasion since then. But there must have been a point where this came along, and you're like, this could go on, and I could be doing this for a while.

1:11:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah. Yeah, no, this was ultimately an easy yes, but I took a really long time to say yes. I literally, like, no stone was uncovered. I really, and I'm a thinker, I like to, my reps probably hate it. I'm like, no, but let's talk it through one more time. Yeah. Because it just felt like such a, yeah, a big undertaking of like, okay, they're asking me to lead this TV show, this ongoing TV show. I know those hours. I know their commitment well. I'm so happy I did. Yeah. Yeah, I really am. It's kind of, it's also one of those ones where you're like, do the thing that scares you the most.

1:12:37Jon Bernthal:Yeah, oh, absolutely.

1:12:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And this feels like that. And it is a very different thing being on people's TV screens than being in a movie. Whilst everyone can watch that movie on their TV, it's still a completely different thing. This, you know, you've just got more hours with people. So there's a kind of, which again is something I'm used to from Game of Thrones but it just this felt right it just like the timing the subject the whole thing just felt like the right thing to do

1:13:06Jon Bernthal:it's the parasocial thing isn't it where like I think in cinema these people kind of you're on the screen you're off the screen and it's like a fleeting moment and with a TV show you feel like you know these characters you live with these characters week in and week out so it's quite an intimate quite intense connection you have with an audience

1:13:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yes it is deeply deeply and this you know I've got a little more screen time and ponies than I did in Game of Thrones. So you really are seeing quite a lot of me. And the relationship with Hayley. And so I feel like the audience has more access to me as a person. You know what I mean? I'm obviously performing and acting a role, but there's a lot more of me in it, which again felt scary.

1:13:46Jon Bernthal:But you got a choice, didn't you, of either of the two roles? Which is unusual, I would say. Deeply.

1:13:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I know. I think they were like, you can have a choice. She's going for B. You know, like it was sort of like, B's who we thought you would want to be. But obviously you can have the choice. And again, I got along to the no stone unturned. I was like, maybe I'm Twyla. Maybe I'm Twyla. And then after that 10th person was like, baby girl, you ain't Twyla.

1:14:11Jon Bernthal:You're not. That's not you. You weren't tempted to go, you know, well, fuck you, I'm playing Twyla. Oh, I did.

1:14:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's what made me be like, you know what? Maybe I can. And then I spent some time reading Twyla's lines. so I was like for fuck's sake I mean just do it just play B and then it was like as if I could have ever played Twyla B is absolutely the one

1:14:31Jon Bernthal:Hayley didn't need to learn Russian though so that's a big tick in the homework column big tick yeah

1:14:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:no she was very she was always like wow how'd you do it I'm like I know I should have played Twyla yeah she got away with not speaking she had one line

1:14:48Jon Bernthal:okay yeah but you're not just speaking Russian Like you are passing for Russian to the KGB. Yes. So from a, honestly, from an accent point of view, that's a lot of pressure.

1:14:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It was. Well, it also was just a bit of a head scratcher because you're, you know, Amelia playing an American, playing a Russian, playing a Russian, you know what I mean?

1:15:12Jon Bernthal:Amelia playing a character that speaks Russian

1:15:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that then goes on to pretend to be, it gets confusing.

1:15:19Jon Bernthal:Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. But I mean, when you're doing that, like how much of it do you actually absorb? Like could you have a conversation, no matter how surface level, in Russian?

1:15:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No.

1:15:27Jon Bernthal:Not at all?

1:15:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No. I would understand more than I ever had before doing this job, before it would be words, sounds. Yeah. And now I can recognize, you know, we're walking around London, I'm like, oh, they're Russian. Oh, yeah. I think I got the fourth word. Interesting. You know, or I'm watching The Americans and I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it. I know what you're saying. And that can kind of bring it all back. And it seemed like before we did ADR for this, which is when you... How do I explain ADR? When you go and if any words need to be re-recorded for whatever reason... Which is a lot, let's be honest. It's often quite a lot.

1:16:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Season one of Game of Thrones, the whole thing. Literally the whole thing. And so when I'm doing that and I'm presented back with the lines, it comes back just without even thinking. But me sitting here talking to you, and you're asking me to speak Russian, I can't.

1:16:22Jon Bernthal:Yeah, I can't lapse into Russian, but if I could, I would now, just to test you, obviously, by...

1:16:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes, yes.

1:16:27Jon Bernthal:So if you had to have a conversation in Russian or High Valerian, you'd lean towards Russian?

1:16:32Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh. Well, I think I made up High Valerian.

1:16:35Jon Bernthal:I mean, you can get away with it, can't you?

1:16:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I didn't make up High... I didn't make up High Valerian. Yeah, definitely.

1:16:42Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Do you still remember it all? Is it like the Russian? Is it seared into your brain?

1:16:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:There's, again, if you were to sit me in front of myself which would take a lot I would talk along with it

1:16:54Jon Bernthal:yeah so do you never watch your stuff then?

1:16:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I watch whatever I do

1:16:58Jon Bernthal:once really? just once never again one time

1:17:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:unless I have to like when we did Star Wars we had like a bunch of premieres and it can you've got to sit there

1:17:06Jon Bernthal:oh you can't just go off and get coffee no you've got to sit there

1:17:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:there's a camera on your face right and I was very tired and I had seen it four times and I was getting to the point where I was like don't fall asleep on camera don't fall asleep on camera

1:17:18Jon Bernthal:that's going to look really bad yeah Yeah. No, that's entirely fair.

1:17:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But no, I don't see the need to watch myself more than once.

1:17:27Jon Bernthal:Okay. Okay, interesting. Once, make sure it's okay, move on.

1:17:29Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly.

1:17:30Jon Bernthal:Yeah, got it. You mentioned the Americans. Great show. So good. Thematically similar to this, totally worlds apart.

1:17:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Totally different.

1:17:36Jon Bernthal:Which I find really interesting. Yeah. Because I love the era setting of that show. And I love the... There's something about kind of Cold War espionage.

1:17:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's so juicy, isn't it? Right?

1:17:46Jon Bernthal:And it feels to me like... It's almost like fantasy because it feels so unreal to us. exactly yes but what i like about this is a we're in the heart of it we're in moscow kgb are everywhere but also it's the tonality of it because yeah i don't i wouldn't i hate labeling things but i wouldn't describe it as a comedy no it's really fucking funny but it's lighter yeah

1:18:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and the americans is not a comedy there is no there is no funnies in that but this really has it's just it's there's just it's just kind of to my mind the most enjoyable type of storytelling because it's like it's like when you think about the movies of the 2000s and they're like capital m movies you know and they have everything in them you're laughing and then you're crying and you feel something and then you're oh and it's just it's just so much in it and i feel like Ponies is the TV version of that.

1:18:40Jon Bernthal:A hundred percent. I'm so glad you agree. Well, I bore people rigid about this all the time because I don't enjoy comedy for comedy's sake because I find comedy in isolation artificial.

1:18:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Unless I'm watching a sketch show or a stand-up comedian.

1:18:51Jon Bernthal:Yeah, which is slightly different. Yeah. But like a comedy story doesn't feel real to me. Whereas if you look at all the great comedies of the 80s, they were all dramatic at their core. Yes. But really, really funny with it. Yes. A Fish Called Wonder. Absolutely. There we go. Everything Eddie Murphy did prior to the comedy film. Exactly. Yeah. Less about that, the better. But this really has that. and I kind of was curious how you go about playing that because the core of this is, I guess, not to play comedy. It's to play it straight.

1:19:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes, which I love. There is nothing more delicious as an actor than playing it straight when you know it ain't straight. And especially when Hayley and I have what we naturally have. Like, I think Hayley and I in life are doing this, but you serve it up a little more for the camera and like just you're internally, I'm like, oh, I just got to keep this straight and it's going to pay off so good. And you sort of know it and it's just the funnest thing to play.

1:19:50Jon Bernthal:Does the comedy like, can you see it on the page or do you feel it in the room? Because sometimes comedy doesn't come back until the edit.

1:19:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, Susanna Fogel and David Iserson are the show owners and creators and writers of the show. Susanna directed the first episode and the last episode. they are funny

1:20:06Jon Bernthal:they're very funny well they've done spy comedy before yes they have indeed

1:20:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and they have a like dry sense of humour that's closer to you know a British sense of humour and there's again it was just it was written in a way that I was like I know this I'm familiar with this this is something that I understand comedy's all in timing yeah and if you nail that timing then you've got it and we were part of a very funny in life the cast had were laughing more than anything else see it's interesting we cracked each other up

1:20:38Jon Bernthal:because that comes across because Adrian Lester who I love

1:20:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh don't we love him and that role we called him Daddy Dane he was the daddy of the cast

1:20:45Jon Bernthal:but he again he's absolutely deadpan he plays it straight more than anyone

1:20:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and we literally I did everything to try and crack that man everything we would try it was like that's why we called him Daddy Dane because he was the dad being like deadly serious being like you arseholes I have five pages of dialogue that's all like spiel that I have to get out and you lot are trying to crack me up and he just would never corpse it took it yeah if you ever did manage to corpse him then you'd feel really bad but it would be really

1:21:14Jon Bernthal:really funny but it's lovely when you can have that I guess because you were cast I mean because you have the choice of roles a fair bit before Hayley

1:21:19Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yes

1:21:20Jon Bernthal:presumably her casting must have been if not stressful a little bit make or break because I feel like that buddy is the core of the whole show absolutely no no no

1:21:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:we felt that and we had this list of people I'm sorry to say yes Hollywood there's a list does a few lists let's see who's on um and uh hayley we were thinking about people and different people and then that was that one zoom call that we all had as creatives and then i think it was i think someone sent it over our group text and it was like absolutely it was almost like a light bulb came up over everyone's head divine into it like of course there is no one else that can play the spot and so from that moment on i just i'm i'm very intuitive as a person and my guts just know immediately and that was one where i was like absolutely the only person i want to work we're going to be friends done yeah yeah sold yeah i just knew she was perfect for it and it yeah so it kind of it it felt quite kismity i'm curious like your relationship with b and how it

1:22:19Jon Bernthal:kind of evolved as you did the show because the nature of i guess a film is you kind of do your prep you know your character you make your film yeah when you do a tv show because it's so long form i imagine your relationship with that character kind of evolves as the story plays out and like how you feel about them when you sit down to shoot the first scene is probably very different to when you wrap the season and how did your kind of journey with her change during that

1:22:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well it really did she was incredibly naive and innocent and blinkered i would argue because she hadn't had a huge life experience and as these experiences happened that were big and dark it It was galvanizing from a confidence point of view. So I was joining her there and that like, feeling more confident speaking Russian, feeling more confident doing this show. And so that definitely changed. And then I like where it's been left. No spoilers, obviously. But I like where it is at the end of the show because I think it allows for a continuation of that energy, which then I get to do something I don't think I've done before, which I'm quite excited about.

1:23:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So that feels very good. But really, it's just such a beautifully crafted plot. Like, you know, we were talking about like Capital M movies and I think one of the biggest reasons why ponies work so well is that they've cast very well.

1:23:43Jon Bernthal:Of course, naturally. Very, very well.

1:23:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But the plot, the journey that they, they, you know, they drew a train journey and they were like, hey, get on board. And you just follow, it's just inevitable where it sort of ends up going and allows for all of these different humorous moments and sad moments and emotional moments. But the core of the truth that it gets to is kind of profound and really relatable. And the fact that that core truth is happening ultimately between two women in a female friendship, that feels juicy and new.

1:24:18Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Do you, like, when you leave these characters behind, obviously you say goodbye to them, you must miss them. Do you carry any of these characters with you? And does your relationship with them change in retrospect? Obviously, Daenerys Targaryen being an example, but your relationship with that character, looking back on it however many years later, must be very different to when you were in the thick of it, surrounded by dragons.

1:24:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Absolutely, incredibly different. I mean, Game of Thrones lives in its own universe for me. There's Game of Thrones and there's every other joke I've ever done. And they're very different things. And then if you do a play, that is where I find it difficult to to leave the character like when I did the seagull I literally mentally had to like put her in bed and walk away COVID helped with that at one point so indeed yes exactly exactly like that was a character that just I mean when you're doing that full play every single night for 85 shows that's a lot whereas when you're doing tv and film you're filming at of sequence there's sometimes it's a short shoot sometimes it's a long shoot but frustratingly so much of what i do it does echo where you are in your life because that's what you're bringing out what you're relating to that's what you're attaching yourself to that's like where you're in order to and your ultimate objectives are coming from from an acting point of view because that's what you're experiencing in your life so it speaks to so when i look back at these characters is I'm looking back at younger me.

1:25:40So there's just, you just got to give her some grace and kind of, I don't know, remember fondly, but Game of Thrones, that was, it's impossible to,

1:25:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it's impossible to not see my experience on Game of Thrones, to not feel like my experience on Game of Thrones as one huge thing. Of course. It sort of, it comes as the whole experience. And still, I would argue that right now, that whole experience is still too big for me to see.

1:26:11Jon Bernthal:And you only watched it once.

1:26:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I only watched it once. And I won't watch it again.

1:26:16Jon Bernthal:That's it, you're done. Or maybe when I'm like 90.

1:26:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, you'll revisit it. Let's watch Game of Thrones. You know, yeah. Just like that.

1:26:22Jon Bernthal:Incredible. Well, I've got to let you go in a second, but one thing I did want to ask you is this. Obviously, you learned Russian for this. That's one for the CV. Job done. Brilliant. Hi, Valerian. You got that as well. Yes. What is the most practically useful thing? Because I feel like this, you probably picked up a bit of spycraft. Maybe you'll use that. Maybe you won't. is there anything you've learned practically that actually you're really glad you now have in your arsenal as anything like what is it that you've for a role that you've what skill have you gained

1:26:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well I thought I could ride a horse but I can't

1:26:48Jon Bernthal:really

1:26:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I really can't film horses the Dothraki would be furious yeah they would be mad they would be super mad but I gave them dragons that is true

1:26:56Jon Bernthal:that was an upgrade

1:26:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:there's some I don't know I did a lot of jobs using guns and I don't like that I have that knowledge in my head so you can feel strip an m16 yeah pretty much like for real yeah and that's sarah connor there you go exactly so that kind of scares me that i know how to do that but that is genuinely a skill um oh man honestly it's just it's the skills that you really get from filming is being around that many people yeah keeping a good attitude and getting good at your acting and getting good at the thing that I feel is genuinely most useful in my life at this point having done all of these different jobs is truly understanding what a camera is saying and when and what how someone is crafting a piece of work judging by what angles we're using and where and where we are like really understanding that that's kind of I'm at that point now where I'm like that's fascinating and useful and good and you can sort of just feel it.

1:28:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So yeah, getting better at my actual job. I mean, that's a useful thing

1:28:04Jon Bernthal:to take away, right? It's a useful thing

1:28:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:to take away, yeah.

1:28:06Jon Bernthal:And I just wish I knew

1:28:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:how to actually write a book.

1:28:08Jon Bernthal:You may never need to jump out of a window and land into a bin, but actually you will need to continue acting.

1:28:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly. Exactly.

1:28:14Jon Bernthal:Fantastic. Well, Amelia, thank you very much for joining us.

1:28:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Thank you. Thanks so much.

1:28:18Jon Bernthal:That was Amelia Clark and it is time now for this week's reviews and we won't begin, I don't think, with ponies. Let's begin with falling on Channel 4, which sees Papa SCA do challenge Andrew Scott for the title of Hot Priest as a sexy, so sexy man of the cloth who falls unexpectedly in love with Kili Ho's Hot Nun. This is written by Jack Thorne, friend of the pod, Jack Thorne, who, as we know, has been on the podcast literally hundreds of times. Isn't that right, Boydie? Yeah. And I think this is, I want to say, friend of the pod. I think this is his first romance that he's done. I think so. Yeah.

1:28:52Jon Bernthal:Okay, Boydie, you are our very own man of the cloth so did you fall

1:28:57Emilia Clarke:for this I did fall for this spoiler alert going early in answering your question not just dealing with the pun this is just I mean fresh from his triumphant babies Papa S.E.A. do can do no wrong what an incredible can we just say yes is he ever not brilliant

1:29:16Jon Bernthal:like literally in anything no

1:29:18Ebon Moss-Bachrach:he is honestly he's on my he's fast becoming my favourite actor I know but I hate him a little bit

1:29:23Jon Bernthal:because he's so good and it's just it's annoying he's so good

1:29:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:he's so good and in this sorry to take over slightly he's doing sign language I know he just casually

1:29:33Jon Bernthal:breaks out the BSL

1:29:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:the emotional depths that this man can get to anyway carry on also I'm just gonna

1:29:39Jon Bernthal:I'm just gonna ask this question he may be the hottest priest the hottest priest it's a big factor sorry Andrew Scott he's the hottest priest

1:29:46Emilia Clarke:I would never say that fully but he's definitely a strong contender with Andrew Scott carry on boy

1:29:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Slam dunk.

1:29:54Emilia Clarke:Absolutely slam dunk, yeah. So, Jack Thorne of Adolescence, Lord of the Flies, Toxic Town, His Dark Materials, etc. Very busy man. One of our busiest TV scriptwriters, because he's so good. And so in demand. But this feels like a really different kind of show for him. And it is, as you say, there's even like a meet-cute, because Papa Esiado's character, he was a man of the cloth. He gets help from Keely Hawes, who is a nun. Hot nun. Hot nun, exactly. and part of me wonders whether, you interviewed Jack Thor, didn't you? But did you ask him about, much about this show? No, we didn't talk about Thorne at all.

1:30:29Emilia Clarke:Right, that's interesting, yeah. Brilliant. Because I'm a great journalist. Yeah, I mean, incredible. It's almost like you didn't know it was coming up. Anyway, it feels like they're two such brilliant actors, and these are two such fantastic roles. And you feel like, even though writers very rarely do this, which is right for specific actors, but it feels so much like they have, because these are two blockbusters. She's one of the great, you know, actresses of our time. And she was brilliant. in The Assassin, probably the most recent thing, right? Which is season two, I think, being filmed soon.

1:30:57Emilia Clarke:And he's fantastic in everything, as we've established. But they're absolutely fantastic together. And there's an instant, you get that instant frisson of excitement between them. And of course, she, being a nun, in the middle of this abbess, with an abbess above her, who is judging all the other sisters, if they do anything against the rules. We should say Roman Catholic. like as in yeah proper Roman Catholic so she's not allowed to have any kind of canoodling of any kind with anyone no hot priest or not hot priest or not he arrives and he's immediately obviously sexy sexy guy and she cooks him some scrambled eggs and it all it all goes off from there really

1:31:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yeah celibacy out the window

1:31:39Emilia Clarke:yeah scrambled eggs oh my god delicious

1:31:41Jon Bernthal:there is literally a bit where she says so here's my cabbage exactly

1:31:45Emilia Clarke:you're just like

1:31:45Jon Bernthal:it's all a little bit carry on I love it

1:31:47Emilia Clarke:but what it feels like because it's Jack Thorne and he's so brilliant that the dialogue is so fantastic. It's like there is subtext into everything that's going on. Even though it feels like immediately love or lust at first sight more for these heavily religious people. And it's an exploration of what happens when heavily religious people fall in love just like that. Or at least from her side to start with, she absolutely kind of is open about her feelings. I'm trying to spoil it now. Whereas I think he's slightly more taken aback by the whole idea initially. And this is going to play out over six episodes, by the way.

1:32:20Emilia Clarke:and you're kind of wondering how they're going to negotiate if they really are if they really are is this kind of spark between them what is going to happen from there it's such a fantastic it's the simplest of ideas isn't it what would happen if if this kind of thing happened to highly religious people but it's just fascinating from the off and it's so it's it it so feels so real it feels authentic every step of the way in romantic dramas or comedies one of my kind of criticisms of them is is that not only are they often a formulaic but they kind of have to be you know it's like boy meets girl whoever boy meets boy whatever way it is they put off you throw obstacles in their way and in the end you have to have the happy ending of them getting together that's just the way it works and within that there are so many contrivances often within the this particular genre of of a romance that it kind of makes it feel unreal for me and i always think oh it's too contrived you can tell the machinations of the writer because this is so skillfully put together and written by jack and so brilliantly performed by the by the two main main roles you just go along with all the different twists and turns that this relationship takes it's fantastic i've given it five stars in heat magazine that's how much a review or a preview it's it's a review we're allowed to just checking i believe yeah i mean if i've spoken in the embargo then they haven't told me um so i think it's fantastic they're both absolutely brilliant in it love the chemistry between them it's phenomenal can we have

1:33:44Jon Bernthal:more of that kind of almost like Victorian like uh ecclesiastical flirting where it's like would

1:33:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:you like to uh take a look at my flower beds you know you know what this is a beautifully stripped back romantic story and it's and it i mean the clue is in the title it is it's kind of this slow burn of of lust and love between these two people is so incredible to watch what i think jack thought I love that Jack Thorne does and we saw it so much in Lord of the Flies is he's this great architect of light. He uses light so well to convey emotions, the accompanying emotions. Like there's scenes where she's looking out into the fields, you know, of this nunnery and just even the way that he uses the light coming into the nunnery and the way that the birds saw.

1:34:37Emilia Clarke:Sorry to interrupt, but all of that is down to the director. It's Peter Hoare who is the genius director who directed the Last of Us best episode and It's a Sin and the next Russell T Davies show Tiptoe coming soon he's the director where the credit's due

1:34:54Ebon Moss-Bachrach:but obviously Jack Thorne the writing is incredible I love that I don't think it's a spoiler

1:35:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:just how the feelings within her develop this kind of quiet storm and how she's dealing with it. She goes to confession and it takes her by surprise, but she's so devout in, she doesn't want to, but she just needs guidance. She doesn't know what to do with these feelings. And as she says, she's never felt like this about anyone before. And the way she confesses how she feels is also just, it's so, the vulnerability is, it's so well written. It's just gorgeous. But yeah, listen, if there was anyone in the world that would make you want to run off and join the church, it is Papa Asiedu. Hang on, run off and join the church?

1:35:46Jon Bernthal:I think you mean the opposite.

1:35:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Run away and leave the church.

1:35:50Emilia Clarke:Yes, but what I mean is like,

1:35:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:join the church so you can see him and then leave the church with him because God, he's so delicious in this role, isn't he? He's no Gary Neville. He's no Gary Neville. He absolutely isn't. but he's yeah the fact that he I love the fact that there's sign language in this show as well he's with his sister-in-law in the house that he lives in his eyes there's something about the way that he eye acts which I know is going to sound strange

1:36:18Emilia Clarke:I know I mentioned that in my room do you? yeah there's some brilliant facial expression reacting from just fantastic the nuances of those reaction shots exactly the nuances of those

1:36:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:scenes are so it's so special I really really love this it was it was beautiful and I really enjoyed the pacing after watching like we watched man on fire and we did that for a pilot plus uh spoiler and i watched a few fast paced things with the disappointment of ted lasso's tonal shift this was lovely it was just exactly what i needed it felt relaxing it felt you could really like dig into it and yeah i i like i love the fact the fact you know the talk of faith in it is really interesting and how you kind of understand how she she got into becoming a nun and how she was She's been a nun for 20 years.

1:37:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And there's another, she's got a postulant. And there's a bit of an issue with a postulant, gets a phone. And how she deals with that.

1:37:12Jon Bernthal:Postulant, like a training wheels nun. Sorry, a training wheels nun.

1:37:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, a training wheels nun. Yeah, I have no notes of this. I thought it was wonderful. And as you said, the casting is just exceptional. Everyone in it's great. But it's really beautiful. Slow paced, deliberately slow paced. Because obviously it is six episodes. But you will fall in love with falling.

1:37:33Jon Bernthal:this on the face of it I would say is not a show that I would have necessarily added to my watch list no spaceships right not enough multiversal action fewer wormholes you see what I'm saying

1:37:46Emilia Clarke:JLS aren't in it

1:37:47Jon Bernthal:JLS are not in it at all like there's a lot here that I just wouldn't really necessarily gravitate to now obviously you're going to say hey James you're in the pocket of Big Thorn because you spoke to me the other week I think I think it's safe if I did not enjoy it I would just say so but But I have a kind of soppy streak, so I have a real thing for a really well-told...

1:38:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You're massively soppy. Thank you, Steph.

1:38:07Jon Bernthal:It is true. And I love a really well-told romance that you can really sink your teeth into. And this is 100 % that. And as someone with a theology degree, I find all the ecclesiastical trappings quite exciting.

1:38:20Emilia Clarke:Can I just say it's one of my favourite things you've ever seen?

1:38:23Jon Bernthal:As someone with a theology degree. Well, what I'm saying is I spend a lot of time studying this kind of area, so I'm very familiar with all the bits and bobs of it. and I find something quite comforting about it, even as a raging atheist. But I really enjoy all of that. And there's something about this that just really... Even for the introduction of Puppet Etiode's character, where he's smoking a cigarette, leaning against his car, and he makes this kind of cheeky joke comment to the RSC man who turns out genuinely funny. Like he has this kind of wry, self-deprecating, but knowingly cool priest thing going on.

1:38:55Jon Bernthal:He's not a fusty priest. he's like he's clearly a young hip cool priest and sexy priest a very sexy priest and so you immediately warm to him he's immediately funny he's incredibly charming and disarming and then kitty hall's nun anna has this really you know almost like again quite disarming almost like awkward bumbling terribly british like apologetic like but also playful and cheeky and a little bit flirty but in a very chaste way you know not just innuendos about flowerbeds and cabbages but there's just something about it where you can feel the frisson in the air as you said you can feel the sexual tension and you can see how it fundamentally just throws both of them because I have no idea what happened because people talk about oh the thunderbolt love of her so whatever like thunderbolts are a thing they're rare but they are a thing and the fact that they're both just smitten from the minute he sort of grabs her hand and it's just yeah it it really really had me and I only had time to watch the first episode this morning so but I'm definitely going to watch the rest of these because it's great James do you know what

1:39:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:you love love

1:39:59Jon Bernthal:I do yes it is true when it's well told please never say that again but also

1:40:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:he loves love

1:40:06Jon Bernthal:also very well cast I will say I was brilliantly cast yeah I think Papa in particular is inspired

1:40:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:have we had Papa on

1:40:12Jon Bernthal:we've never had him on the podcast Papa if you're listening and I know you are are you sure about that I think he may have been on another example thousands of times much like Jack Thorne it's hard to say no we may have had him on I have not spoken to him you may

1:40:26Emilia Clarke:no I think I have I'm pretty sure I have

1:40:28Jon Bernthal:we didn't have him on for series one of the Lazarus Project no I don't think did we it's hard to we had Joe on for Lazarus definitely as much as this is enjoyable

1:40:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:this is on air we don't know

1:40:39Jon Bernthal:maybe we have maybe we haven't anyway if you're listening come in let's talk let's talk Catholicism and frocks let's talk let's talk Catholicism and hot nuns Yeah, let's do that. Falling then, Channel 4.

1:40:54Emilia Clarke:Oh, Channel 4, Tuesday, the 19th of May, 2026, 9pm. 9pm. A habit to get into, we're saying. Oh dear.

1:41:02Jon Bernthal:There we go. Okay, next up, we have PONIES, which is an acronym for People of No Interest. And this one, which you've already heard about, to be fair, from Emilia Clarke, so you don't really need to hear about it again, but it debuted on Peacock in the US in January. only just made it to these shores. But as we said, it's got Amelia Clarke, it's got Hayley Lou Richardson in it, it's got Adrian Lester in it, as neophyte spies in Cold War Moscow. Steph, you strike me as someone who wanted her parents to buy her a pony. So, will this suffice? Wow, random. That's all I've got.

1:41:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right. This, I kind of started and I was like, oh, I'm not sure whether I'm going to like this. This seems a bit confusing. this whole concept seems a bit strange. I don't know whether I'm going to like it. And it started and it was all a bit desaturated and I was like, oh, I don't know about this.

1:41:54Emilia Clarke:You don't like desaturation?

1:41:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Can I tell you something about desaturization? Please do.

1:41:59Emilia Clarke:I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.

1:42:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right. When things are desaturated, right, now don't do that thing where you just go, oh, Steph, you're just so silly. It makes me want to rub my eyes.

1:42:11Jon Bernthal:What, like they're not working properly?

1:42:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just because it just, yeah, it doesn't. That's brilliant. Do you know what I mean? Does that make any sense?

1:42:18Jon Bernthal:Why are colours not working properly? Yes, it doesn't.

1:42:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It makes me really want to. I don't really enjoy it. I like, I don't know, vivid. I like vivid colours. Yeah. No, okay. I know. It's not that I can't appreciate it.

1:42:32Emilia Clarke:So desaturated post-apocalyptic thing would be your own hell. Oh, God, that'd be terrible.

1:42:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's why I don't like June. Anyway, right. So, but the story is fantastic. So you've got these two women that are brought together. Their husbands are in the CIA. and they're brought together because, is it a spoiler to say what happens to their husbands?

1:42:51Jon Bernthal:No, I think it's the set up of the show. So do I.

1:42:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay. So their husbands die and they're brought... What? Carry on. Is it a spoiler? No, no, you're all good.

1:43:00Emilia Clarke:He's taking the piece.

1:43:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:This is what Jake was talking about.

1:43:05Emilia Clarke:Psychopathy of James.

1:43:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:They're brought together, James, Widow's Bay, they're brought together because their husbands have died and they want to get, they want to be... They want to find out what the hell happened. So Hayley Lee Richardson's character, Twilla Hasbeck, and Emilia Clarke's character, I brought together, Emilia Clarke's character, oh, she's a bit like you, actually, isn't she? She's like super clever. Yeah, she's like super clever. She speaks Russian. She knows everything. She's a little bit. That's why they bonded. I mean, okay. You know, she knows loads of stuff. Yeah, and Hayley Lee Richardson's character is a bit like me.

1:43:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She's like curly hair, not quite sure, but she'll give it a go.

1:43:46Jon Bernthal:I think she's got she's rather more aggressive I would say than you are Steph yeah she probably is anyway you don't generally call people bitches quite as often to their face no that's true but you know

1:43:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:but anyway they kind of they sort of team up and they are given given a mission and it's how they adapt to their sort of new life as you know integral to finding out what happened to their husbands and they basically the CSI don't the CSI

1:44:11Jon Bernthal:the CSI the CSI not to be confused with JLS which is of course It's completely different.

1:44:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The CIA don't know the real, the true reason why they want to be part of it. They're like, oh, no, we can be really helpful. So, yeah, I mean, it's a bit of a caper, isn't it, of them? Would you say? Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's a bit of a caper. And I really enjoyed the scenes of Russia. I don't know, is it?

1:44:35Emilia Clarke:Scenes of Russia?

1:44:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I really, I went to Russia as part of my, yeah, part of my master's degree, James. Oh, right, I see. That's part of my master's degree. What's your master's degree in? You've asked me to do publishing. I've got a degree in psychology and a master's in publishing. Why were you sent to Russia, though? Well, I tell you what, we were sent to Russia, really interestingly, to go and meet the editor of Russian Vogue.

1:44:59Jon Bernthal:That is interesting.

1:45:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right, no, and then we were also supposed to go to Forbes magazine and we couldn't go because something happened and then there was later a bit of a possible murder. Anyway, come on to that. What?

1:45:14Emilia Clarke:Someone was murdered?

1:45:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What, you were trapped down by the FFB? It was fantastic. But I really enjoyed going to Russia. Forget ponies.

1:45:20Emilia Clarke:You should be doing your own Russia set. Crime, thriller, mysteries, espionage. It was really exciting.

1:45:24Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And then, yeah, then we went to St. Petersburg as one of them. So I love all the Russian vista. It's beautiful. Really, really nice. Yeah. Emilia Clarke with Hayley Richardson, they are fantastic together. They just work. They just work as a duo. You know, the comedic bits work. the aggressive bits work everything in this I think works and it's really incredibly enjoyable it's not, I wouldn't say for me it's a must watch it's just something that I enjoyed whilst watching it and I would watch it again but it's not something I absolutely have to watch but I do think Emilia Clarke is fantastic in it yeah

1:46:01Emilia Clarke:they're both really good I think it's all about the tone of this show isn't it because it's it's quite jaunty it's kind of taking but subtly jaunty like it's not

1:46:12Jon Bernthal:it's not it's not heavy air quotes comedy no no no no it's just very funny no yeah yeah yeah

1:46:19Emilia Clarke:is it very funny I'm going to say very

1:46:21Jon Bernthal:well the thing is this is very much my sense of humour where it's drama but it's loads of deadpan dry humour in there which I find very funny whereas you know I have the whole thing about the silly comedy silly comedy yeah

1:46:33Emilia Clarke:well I'm surprised yeah very I'm not sure I'd say very funny well it made me laugh okay well I think it was funny

1:46:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think you're compromised you think

1:46:41Emilia Clarke:in the pocket of big Clark. Apparently, they're practically the same person. Well, no,

1:46:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:he is a bit like that. You know, he's a little bit... The director's like,

1:46:49Emilia Clarke:just do more James. No, in that way

1:46:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that you're just very smart.

1:46:54Jon Bernthal:I mean, thank you very much for that.

1:46:55Emilia Clarke:Try to be a compliment. Compliment, yes. Yeah, I don't see much of it as a B. So, but I like the tone. I think it worked very well. And I think, you know, the reason why you liked it so much, James, is because, yeah, it manages to be funny and humorous. it gets comedy out of the situation while maintaining an authenticity. Adrian Leicester in particular is very funny. He's good, yeah. He's really good. I mean, he's great at everything that he's in, isn't he?

1:47:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm really taking issue with the very funny. Really? I'm really taking issue. Oh, she's coming for me. That's it.

1:47:28Emilia Clarke:Oh, no, I agree with you.

1:47:29Jon Bernthal:It's not very funny. She's just like, right, you didn't even smile during Widow's Bay, but this has you on the floor. It isn't very funny.

1:47:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think that's misleading. Okay, I misspoke.

1:47:38Jon Bernthal:I would say it is consistently amusing. Is that better?

1:47:41Emilia Clarke:It's gone down to amusing. Consistently amusing. I would agree with that, yeah. For me, that's high praise. It's fairly amusing. Consistently. But, that is, it's a difficult trick to pull off because you're still dealing with death, right? They're dealing with the deaths of their husbands and, you know, one of them was more into her husband than the other, sure. But, you know, it manages to make that, the interactions convincing and their response to this apparent tragedy convincing.

1:48:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, I mean, one of them's a proper grieving widow, the other one really kind of couldn't give a shit.

1:48:13Emilia Clarke:No, exactly. Because we see some of the fractious relationship in the early scenes in the show. Yeah. So it does all that really well. And you're right, the whole milieu of Russia in this period also feels very real as well. And what I liked about it, the whole premise in a way is, all of these shows normally, you know, the John le Carre stories, you know, we had the Secret Service recently on ITV, which you two didn't like. but that was an example you know of a story with a woman at the centre of it trying to see what's going on this is a story with two women at the centre of the of the story trying to work out what's going on and trying to get to the bottom of various mysterious elements that they're thinking they're uncovering and I thought that as a premise worked very well particularly when you've got these two brilliant yeah it's these two isn't it yeah these two are really really good together so I really enjoyed it but do you know what I got to the end of episode one and I thought I don't really need to carry on I did too

1:49:05Jon Bernthal:oh see I did carry on really to be fair I had to do an interview

1:49:09Emilia Clarke:but I was genuinely enjoying it so I enjoyed it a lot absolutely every step of the way while it was on but as soon as it was over I didn't go oh I must must find out I think it lacked that final hook

1:49:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I just think wow

1:49:23Emilia Clarke:I agree

1:49:24Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I totally agree look she's brilliant she's brilliant she's incredibly watchable obviously we know she's an amazing actress and they both are Haley Richardson is equally as good but there isn't you're right there's nothing addictive in this

1:49:37Emilia Clarke:think about I wouldn't compare it slightly unfairly but I'm going to anyway Slow Horses right Slow Horses which also does the comedy espionage brilliantly it's that the storytelling in that show every single season so far has been so clever in wanting in absolutely becoming addicted to each plot line and each subplot it's so gripping it's so exciting this hasn't it's got a similar tone and a similar thing going on but it doesn't achieve that narrative thrust that just that's a very high part oh I know I know but do you know what I interviewed the rifles people this morning soon to be heard on the podcast Pilot Plus and they were talking about how in this day and age the pressures in the streaming world you really have to make your thing A++ plus you have to go further and further and further and make it as good as and I just think this is mid tier this is mid I agree that's what I'm saying sorry no no no

1:50:29Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it's not there isn't there isn't there isn't something at the end of this that makes you want to find out what happens I don't know whether it's that you don't care about their relationships enough to care about why their husbands were killed. Maybe they don't have, you know, there's not enough scenes with them. I don't know what it is, but there is...

1:50:42Emilia Clarke:It's not surprising enough. That's the thing about it. This kind of genre, I think, relies a lot on surprises and twists and turns and things like this. Feels a little bit, I wanted a little bit more of that kind of thing. I would say...

1:50:55Jon Bernthal:That's partly a personal preference. Yeah. I would say, just to go all Widows Bay, the first episode is very set up heavy. Yeah, true. And it does find a rhythm more as it goes on. How many episodes have you seen? I've just seen the first three.

1:51:09Emilia Clarke:But suddenly he's watching loads of episodes. He's got Emilia Clarke to talk to.

1:51:14Jon Bernthal:But I think the success of this, the core of this, is that Hayley Lou Richardson and Emilia Clarke have incredible kind of crackling on screen energy. 100%. Because this is a mismatched buddy show. It's not a buddy comedy, although there's comedy in it. And it's their relationship and the fact that they're so different, but they clearly get on very well and they are perfect foils to each other. It just makes it inherently entertaining. To your point, you are right. I think the kind of superordinate espionage plot, I mean, is it within 100 miles of slow horses? No, absolutely not. But I mean, it's very hard, because these are obviously based on individual Mick Herron books, which are all precision crafted.

1:51:54Jon Bernthal:I would say this has a decent storyline as it goes on and the KGB get involved. What happened to their husbands? You're absolutely right. I couldn't give a shit. I couldn't give a shit. They care, I don't, whatever. But that's not why I'm watching it. Did you tell what media clocked that? Yes, I couldn't even share. No, but I don't think that's the driving thrust of the narrative either. I think as they kind of go, because it's all about them being women, obviously, as spies, is such a wild thing at this period in the 70s that no one suspects them, hence the title. No one suspects they're spies because they're just, heavy air quotes, women.

1:52:26Jon Bernthal:And that's a really interesting sort of thread to mine in this 70s setting. But also, as they kind of grow into their roles, as they embrace what they're doing, their different feelings towards it. Like Bea has an agenda. She wants to know what happened to her husband, but she's also incredibly smart and she speaks Russian and French and a variety of other things. She's very competent. Whereas Twyla doesn't, you know, she speaks American, you know, and she has no real skills, but she has no fear at all. She's incredibly bullshit. She thinks on her feet and she has all of the kind of self-confidence that Bea lacks.

1:52:58Jon Bernthal:And I think the two of them together make a really fun pairing. and whenever they're on screen together they're just fun to be around

1:53:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:whenever Adrian Lester's on screen

1:53:06Jon Bernthal:also fun to be around in a very different way and for me that's the heart of the show

1:53:10Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think they're a magnetic screen pairing I do really think that but I just think I think the story is not there for me

1:53:18Jon Bernthal:in the one episode that you could be bothered to watch that one yeah wow Widow's Bay Widow's Bay yes yes it's a lot of fun I think it's great It's a Laura-Laura fun. It's a Laura-Laura fun.

1:53:32Emilia Clarke:Can I ask one question? Yes. Crucial question. Because I'm on the pedantic mission to that. Go on. Ponies? Because it's an acronym, should it be all uppercase? Yes. Yes, it should. Yes. Oh, okay. Yes.

1:53:44Jon Bernthal:Is this for the magazine? Yes, it is all uppercase. Okay. Ponies. Right, ponies, which drops on Sky and now as a box there, all in one go. When, boy?

1:53:56Emilia Clarke:Friday, the 22nd of May. Friday? 2026. and it's on Sky Atlantic Live at 9 o 'clock that night. Super.

1:54:03Jon Bernthal:What else is out this week that we have singularly failed to cover because of the multitude of embargoes?

1:54:09Emilia Clarke:There's so much out this week. It's fucking ridiculous. There actually is.

1:54:13Jon Bernthal:All right, I'm going to go through from the list. We have... Deep Breath. Jack Ryan, which is a film, kind of. It's like a one-off singular dramatic event. What is that?

1:54:24Emilia Clarke:That's on Prime on Wednesday. To give me its full title, It's Tom Clance's Jack Ryan Colon Ghost War. Drips off the tongue.

1:54:32Jon Bernthal:Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed with Tatiana Maslany, which is on Apple TV +, that also airs on Wednesday. Don't need the plus. Are you right? But it's always plus to me, Boydie. Or at least it would be if they invited me to their pre-BAFTA drinks, which they didn't. Anyway, let's move on. Let's not get distracted. They don't like you. No, I mean, this is clear. Right, okay. So that we're going to cover on Pilot Plus on Thursday. We have got The Burrows on Netflix.

1:54:54Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I've watched that.

1:54:55Jon Bernthal:Thursday, Thursday the 21st. Steph's watched it. Oh, have you? Steph, review it for me with your eyes now. Oh, interesting. Okay, right, we will talk about that probably next week. What else have we got on here? Two weeks in August on BBC One.

1:55:09Emilia Clarke:Yes, yes. Saturday. Saturday, BBC One, very exciting. Jessica Raine, Damien Maloney, Nicholas Pinnock, Hugh Skinner from 2026, Leila Farzad from I Hate Suits, great cast. And we're not allowed to review that. Embargoed, right? Embargoed. Also embargoed, Dear England, also on the Beeb. That's on Sunday. Absolutely. That's the adaptation of the play about Gareth Southgate, the England manager, played by Joseph Fiennes. And Jodie Whittaker plays the real-life psychologist who helped change the England team's practices. And I interviewed them for this very podcast this week. So that'll be coming out next week, I think, hopefully.

1:55:47Emilia Clarke:And yeah, that starts on Sunday on BBC One.

1:55:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay.

1:55:51Emilia Clarke:Excellent.

1:55:52Jon Bernthal:What out of the only two shows we reviewed this week is our pick of the week. Falling, obviously. Of course. Falling.

1:55:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well done, Jack.

1:56:00Jon Bernthal:I enjoyed ponies, but yes, I would agree it is falling.

1:56:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You enjoyed the very funny ponies?

1:56:05Jon Bernthal:The very funny, the hilarious one. Side splitting, Steph. Side splitting.

1:56:09Emilia Clarke:Okay.

1:56:10Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Okay. Okay, that is it for this week's show. If you'd like to leave us a review, please do so, or, you know, some kind of scathing complaint about whatever it is we've done wrong this week. Now, for those of you who do watch this on YouTube, I hope you are currently looking at us. I have no idea whether you are or not because the cameras have been utter twats of late.

1:56:27Emilia Clarke:I love you to do jazz hands just now.

1:56:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I did jazz hands because I did go on to the YouTube comments to just say, look, it really... We do find it incredibly annoying when the cameras don't work. Mostly me because I do put on a bit of lipstick just before.

1:56:40Jon Bernthal:As do I.

1:56:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And just in case we're on screen. So, yeah, it is annoying. It really annoys us. And as I said in my comment, if James had any hair, it would all be gone because he pulls it out with a stretch of hold. It's been very stressful. It has been very stressful.

1:56:52Jon Bernthal:But we are... I'm hopeful. I've been actually monitoring it as we've been doing the show and it seems to be working. You can't tell 100 % until we're finished. So, you know, but hopefully this will all be on the tube. Okay. As it were. Yeah. And follow us on social media. We are at Pilot TV Pod. We are YouTube slash Pilot TV Pod if you want to watch us to see our lovely smiling faces. You are Steph Seeland at Steph Seeland specifically. You are at Boyd Hillner. I am at James C. Dyer. We are at Pilot TV Pod. This is like an episode of The One Show. Mixed the two Ronnies. And it's goodbye from me, and it's goodbye from you, and it's goodbye from you.

1:57:29Jon Bernthal:Oh, God, I'm going off to watch... There's got more endings than Lord of the Rings part three. Lord of the Rings, your favourite film. I'm going off to watch JLS in concert. Oh, God. JLS! We'll be back next week with Spider Noir and some other things. Pilot out.