Rivals, Believe Me, Gary, and Off Campus. With guest Steve Coogan

8:24Steve Coogan:I just think it would. I don't know.

8:26Pilot TV Team:Right, okay. But anyway, I was really sad, but we did exhaust every other option and he had to kill the bees and it made me really sad because I didn't want to kill the bees. And he said to me, he said, if they were wasps, he goes, I'd kill them day and night, little fuckers. But he said, bees are lovely, we try not to kill bees. Can I acquire the rights to this? Can I turn it into a horror film? Oh, that's horrible. That is. Not the bees, not the bees.

8:47Steve Coogan:I didn't realise it was going to end like that.

8:48Pilot TV Team:Yeah, it had a sad ending. And it bummed me out for the rest of the day. But how did he... What was his weapon of choice? Yeah, how did he kill them? A flamethrower, obviously. No, of course I'm joking, not a flamethrower. They put some powder down the top of the chimney. A pause of bee boys. Well, to be fair, a lot of them then all flew out to get away from it. So a lot of them did then fly out and went away. Oh, did they?

9:07Steve Coogan:So there were some survivors. There were survivors, yes.

9:09Pilot TV Team:Every now and then you just stumble across a dead bee in your kitchen. Well, in the front room, there were dead bees in the front room, yeah. Were you on your own or were you kind of… I was just sitting on my own, just happily editing the podcast at a table and then the bees joined me. Honestly, that's one of my worst nightmares. I don't like bees or wasps.

9:25Steve Coogan:Okay. I like bees, they're nice. You have to like bees. Yeah. Well, you do because otherwise we'd all be dead. We need bees to pollinate. I know, I know, I know.

9:32Pilot TV Team:I just don't choose to socialise with them. That's fair. That's fair. Enough bee chat. I'm sure we have tons of complaints in the reviews about this. Too much bee chat on this podcast. It's not a bee podcast. I don't see how anyone could complain about that story. That was a great story. That's a horrific story.

9:46Steve Coogan:Yeah, and it was a good story. Well done you.

9:48Pilot TV Team:Steph, any other arthropod-based documentaries you've been watching that you would like to share this week?

9:53Steve Coogan:Well, as I said, I'm on the secrets of Wales at the moment, which is fantastic, but mostly I am knee deep.

10:00Pilot TV Team:Whales, the huge, large mammals and not the country.

10:05Steve Coogan:No, but I do love whales as a country. The secret life of whales, the country. That would be a great show.

10:10Pilot TV Team:I would watch that. Yeah. Hosted by Nick Evans. Whales. Whales. Whales. Whales.

10:15Steve Coogan:I could get Michael Sheen on there. You could, yes. That would be wonderful. So many great Welsh people. Anyway, not that. I am knee deep in Ted Lasso.

10:24Pilot TV Team:Okay.

10:25Steve Coogan:I can't stop watching this show. now a couple of things are happening that are concerning me but i'm just gonna i'm just gonna go so i'm up to i'm up to episode seven on season two and i just watched there's two episodes back to back which are two amazing episodes one of them is carol of the bells which is the christmas episode in season two where hannah woodingham goes around and gives presents to people which is just delightful but my favorite episode of the whole thing so far is rainbow episode five season two which is the rom-com episode where they do lots of you know which one I'm talking about.

11:03Steve Coogan:Oh my god it's absolutely brilliant. It's a total joy.

11:08Pilot TV Team:Brett Goldstein.

11:09Steve Coogan:Listen Brett Goldstein I mean absolutely brilliant Hannah Waddingham is so sensational I mean.

11:16Pilot TV Team:She's hosting SNL this week. Oh is she? She'll be great. The Christmas episode the one where Keely and Roy are I was talking to her and she's seeing someone and she says he's fine and he does a monologue about fine, fine. You don't need someone who's fine. You want someone who sets your fucking hair on fire. How dare you settle for fine.

11:35Steve Coogan:That's the one before that. It's so good. I love that speech. The Christmas episode is where his niece has got a bad breath problem and they do the love actually thing at the boy's house at the end with the cards. I mean, it's just every, all the little touches are so fantastic. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I mean, I'm just, I'm going to say something that might shock people. I don't love it as much as I love Shrinking, but I do really love it. Or as much as you love Rooster. Oh, I love Rooster. But my God, Phil Dunster is so good as well. He plays Jamie Tarr.

12:07Pilot TV Team:I'm obsessed with Phil Dunster. You are.

12:09Steve Coogan:I think he's so sexy. He's so, I love him. And I love him in this because he's just such a massive knob. It's great. It's so entertaining. Yeah, I really love it.

12:20Pilot TV Team:That's why you find him so sexy.

12:21Steve Coogan:Yeah. Well, do you know that?

12:22Pilot TV Team:Because it was massive. Steady.

12:25Steve Coogan:Anyway, that's what I've been watching.

12:27Pilot TV Team:Okay. Boydie. I watched last night Live from N5, which is the YouTube Arsenal magazine show that they have on the official Arsenal YouTube channel before every match. It's called Live from N5, which is the postcode where Arsenal's based. So this was before the Champions League semi-final, second leg that we won 1-0. And we're now going to Budapest for the Champions League final.

12:52Steve Coogan:I'm going to have to interject there

12:54Pilot TV Team:what?

12:54Steve Coogan:who's going to be Arsenal me personally as well

12:58Pilot TV Team:and Arsenal and they had but this is yes on the one hand this is an excuse for me to say that to revel in the fact that Arsenal won last night I'm very confused I thought Arsenal were doing appallingly and were losing to teams like Bournemouth or whatever it was that was happening about a month ago but now we've things have changed everything has changed we've completely reversed the situation now they're in a thing

13:18Steve Coogan:called the Champions League final which is not like just like British Premier League I don't know why just carry on it involves European European teams I was just going to explain it and then he started doing that thing with his eyes glazed over he doesn't need to know this there's no space in that brain for this anyway

13:36Pilot TV Team:I was mentioning for gratuitous reasons that I was there last night it was one of the greatest nights of my life we had an absolutely brilliant time and we ended up in a pub after the game with Dermot and Dermot this is Dermot O 'Leary Dermot O 'Leary who I go to talk with and the crowd were chanting Dermot is a gooner Dermot as a gooner and they were like hailing him it was brilliant but the reason the tenuous connection to television etc is that this Live From N5 show which is really good had Benedict Cumberbatch on so Benedict Cumberbatch has become a huge Arsenal fan mainly because like he lives near there his friends live near there and his kids support Arsenal and he was he launched a really lovely explanation of why he's an Arsenal fan in classic eloquent kind of inspiring life affirming Cumberbatch way and then sure enough they have a small studio audience it's done in a studio at the game and they're all like Cumberbatch they're all like worshipping Cumberbatch and talking about how brilliant he is and it was really sweet it was really fantastic to see him and not only he is a big Arsenal fan but so is Tom Hiddleston and Tom Hiddleston was on the David Beckham coverage of the match now this is a show this is an American show which is called Beckham and Friends Live James and I know you love shows It's not like We'd Love Megan.

14:52Pilot TV Team:It's We'd Love David. No, it's not like that. It's more like Gogglebox. It's basically Gogglebox for football with David Beckham hosting it. God, that's my idea of hell on that. Do you know what?

15:01Steve Coogan:They do lots of those kinds of things. There's another show that Gary Neville, my dear love, he does a show where... You love Gary Neville?

15:06Pilot TV Team:I've never heard that sentence in my life.

15:08Steve Coogan:I, honestly, in another life, do believe that Gary Neville is my soulmate. I'm not joking.

15:14Pilot TV Team:This is the most surprising thing I've ever heard you say. How have we not discussed this before?

15:18Steve Coogan:When I see Gary Neville, right, on TV something happens to my heart it flutters

15:24Pilot TV Team:steady I wondered where you were going with that sentence but sure

15:26Steve Coogan:yeah I love it that is extraordinary can I ask a question yes

15:29Pilot TV Team:what do you think it is

15:30Steve Coogan:is it TV

15:31Pilot TV Team:who's Gary Neville oh

15:35Steve Coogan:okay wow he's an ex-Majest United footballer and pundit he's one of the yeah he's one of the most famous footballers but he's probably I would say he's one of the best pundits that we have

15:46Pilot TV Team:so do you like him in like an erotic way I like him

15:50Steve Coogan:facially I like everything he says I think he's I just think he's got such he's like such a good man I like that he's got really good relationships with his family he's just really down to earth and he's really nice I love his accent I love everything I agree with everything he says and he does these fantastic shows he's funny and he can take the piss and he can he can give it and he can take it and I really like that about him

16:10Pilot TV Team:wow yeah

16:11Steve Coogan:fair enough my point about that is he does shows where he watches people like people watch the old matches and talk about it and it's very entertaining carry on

16:19Pilot TV Team:the Beckham show Beckham and Friends which is an American show but you get clips of it on YouTube he sits there watching the match with celebrities and you're watching him watching the match and one of those celebrities in last night was Tom Hiddleston who was also a massive Arsenal fan and he also interviewed him for this podcast so you've got Hiddleston and Cumberbatch I mean basically you've got British acting royalty all supporting Arsenal absolutely fantastic and you so wow so hopefully I'll see them in Budapest you will at the end of the month the other thing I've been watching is which is slightly random but for reasons that will come clear eventually well partly because so Ross D.

16:55Pilot TV Team:Davis' Tiptoe is coming soon which is his big new show on Channel 4 arrives at the end of May so we'll be reviewing it soon Tiptoe is about two warring neighbours and they're kind of one of them is gay and the other one is homophobic and it's like that's a simplistic version of the story and they end up having this terrifying kind of conflict if you like

17:17Steve Coogan:that brings them together

17:17Pilot TV Team:I'm not going to say Okay, fine. That's all I'll say. Is it a British beef? It's a little bit of a British beef. Yeah, I can't say anything about it. No, no, not allowed. Anyway, partly in anticipation for that, because it's being billed quite accurately as a thriller. Russell T. Davis' first thriller, really, proper, full-on, you know, scary stuff happening in the show. But the only other thing that comes close that he's done in his oeuvre is The Second Coming, which came out about 20 years ago, which Christopher Eccleston, as literally the son of God, who comes back to Earth to tell everyone.

17:52Steve Coogan:No.

17:52Pilot TV Team:Yeah. Well, this is why I was... So I started watching it just as a comparison between the two. Yeah. I wrote about tiptoeing the new issue of Empire. Out now. Out now. Out now. Out now. Out now. Best issue of Empire ever. Because it's got aliens on the cover. Written by me. Well, I mean, fair enough. Yeah. Should have been an alien, but there we are. No. I watched The Second Coming. It was directed by a guy called Adrian Shergold who's a very respected kind of director. Eccleston is brilliant in it. He's basically like a normal Mancunian, set in Manchester, and he's like a normal everyday guy.

18:25Pilot TV Team:He's working in a video store. I mean, that dates it, right? That's quite poignant for a start.

18:29Steve Coogan:God, I miss blockbusters.

18:29Pilot TV Team:He's just a normal everyday guy who just happens to be actually the Messiah and the Son of God. And he performs miracles to prove to people that he really is the Son of God. So there's no doubt. It's not the story of someone who wakes up and goes, oh, I think I'm mad. He's mad because he thinks he's the Son. He really is the Son of God. But the whole message of the show is very atheistic in the sense that it's all about how controlled and organized religion ruins everything. So once he becomes this huge messiah-like figure and millions and millions of people across the world start worshipping him blindly, that's the problem.

19:06Pilot TV Team:And it's such an interesting concept. And I remember watching it when it first came out and everything is, and I loved it. but what's amazing about it it has not dated at all

19:17Steve Coogan:where can you watch it now

19:18Pilot TV Team:do you know what I got it on DVD yeah he got the old DVD out I got the DVD out so I think I think you could have watched it on ITVX until fairly recently and it seems to have gone off ITVX but I'm sure I'll be back soon but it is astonishing the extent to which it hasn't dated obviously there's certain there's bits and pieces of CGI in it which are which would have been done more sophisticatedly is that a word now but the way it's shot is so cinematic and clever the camera's constantly moving and kind of tracking epic characters and there's there's a big explosion in one of the episodes that's done really really done well but it's just in the dialogue and the execution and the direction and the acting it's really it's a really fantastic under I think undervalued item in the Brustace Davis oeuvre as I say and it was fantastic and so I started my plan was just to have a look at it and say you know what was it like after all the years because I hadn't seen it for ages.

20:12Pilot TV Team:And I watched the whole thing.

20:14Steve Coogan:Amazon Video or Apple TV, you can watch it.

20:16Pilot TV Team:There you go. It's good. It is good. Okay. Yeah, do you remember? Yeah. It's absolutely, honestly, it's fantastic. Well, Christopher Eccleston

20:22Steve Coogan:is brilliant in everything, isn't he? I can't even think of something he's not going to do.

20:25Pilot TV Team:Also, I think the seeds of his Doctor can be found. Really? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, because he's got the kind of grinning manic quality to it. Yeah, there's definitely a maniacal thread running through his messiah. Yeah, and of course, it did lead to him being in Doctor Who. Yeah.

20:39Steve Coogan:Okay, lovely.

20:41Pilot TV Team:James what have I been watching this week so I've watched some more of Prisoner on Sky oh yeah yeah it's not very good now okay how much more how much more have you watched I've watched another couple of episodes and it's not that it's I mean it's really hard to quantify because I'm kind of enjoying it but I if I it may be it's not a hate watch by any stretch because I'm not hating anything about it it's a guilty pleasure in that I'm not convinced of the quality but I am quite invested in it. I think it's, you know, when people watch soaps often, I guess it's like, you're not sure, you know you're not watching prestige TV but you need to know what happens to these particular characters.

21:19Pilot TV Team:And I think my issues with this particular show are everything that happens with the transport officer and the convict on the run, loads of fun. Everything that happens in the control room, excruciating. Really? Absolutely excruciating. There is a scene where a character, I'm not going to spoil anything for anyone, is accused of being the mole. And it's just like, I was just, I mean, the dialogue, everything about it was just toe-curlingly awful. Not least of all the fact that the person is accused in front of the whole, no one says, can you come into a room, we need to have a chat. Just like an accusation in front of a room full of people followed up with no evidence to back it up.

21:57Pilot TV Team:And I was like, I don't understand how this was written this way. It's just, no, I can't, I can't.

22:01Steve Coogan:But yet you're still watching it.

22:03Pilot TV Team:And yet I'm still watching it and I don't know why, but I am still watching it. Because I watched half of it. You know the scene I'm talking about. Yeah, I do. I'm in the pocket of Big Prisoner. But I really enjoyed it, actually. But it knows what it's doing.

22:21Steve Coogan:I think all of this is moot, because the fact is you're watching it. I am watching it. That's the bottom line,

22:27Pilot TV Team:because it is addictive viewing. Yeah, well, there you go.

22:29Steve Coogan:And that's what you want. That's what people want. People watch addictive viewing. It doesn't have to be prestige. You love Prisoner.

22:37Pilot TV Team:I also like the mad the son of the oh yes again screaming archetype he's brilliantly over the top I think I enjoy his performance he's really a lot of it's over the top I don't even mind the over the topness it's particularly the control room sequences are quite cack handed and it's just like it bugs me I like a control room sequence anyway you do like a control room I've said it before I want to say it again well we're going to have to get into this because there's someone who's quite triggered by that who wrote into Pilot Plus to say that control room sequences are their personal bait noir. So we'll have to get into that.

23:07Pilot TV Team:Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I've been watching more Prisoner and let's be honest, I'm not going to stop, even though I know I should. No, you should. But I'm not going to.

23:14Steve Coogan:Because you're enjoying it. It's like His and Hers. You should watch it. It's brilliant.

23:18Pilot TV Team:Well, yes. His and Hers, we should say before the show started, Steph began by saying, what was the name of that show where, insert spoiler for the final episode here happened? And I was like, well, I don't know, but I'm clearly not going to watch it now, Steph.

23:30Steve Coogan:It's still an enjoyable ride.

23:32Pilot TV Team:Thank you.

23:32Steve Coogan:The people have spoken. They loved it.

23:34Pilot TV Team:What else did I watch? I watched the new series of From, which I can't believe it's the fourth series of From. I didn't even realise we were on series four. So as we'll get onto in the review section, we didn't get access to all the shows we thought we would get access to. So one of the things I did... You did, but Steph and I didn't. So I watched some episodes of From thinking, worst case scenario, I could just review that instead. But I'm not going to do it. I'm just going to talk about it here. Doesn't From feature Sheriff Boyd? Sheriff Boyd, that's right. What a great man. Exactly. Sheriff Boyd.

24:02Pilot TV Team:and this is off the back of the complete madness that happened last season. It has so much lost in its DNA like it really does except with a much nastier horror bent to it in that you're just like I don't know what's going on and at this point though and this is where I guess the lost analogy maybe ends depending on your point of view I'm not sure I care enough to keep watching and yet again I'm watching it despite myself. Now this one is almost a hate watch where I'm not even sure I actively enjoy watching the show but I'm three seasons deep now I'm like, God damn it, the fifth one is going to be the last one.

24:33Pilot TV Team:I'm just going to press on to the end. But I don't know that I should.

24:37Steve Coogan:I think you just need to free yourself in the shackles of your mind.

24:40Pilot TV Team:I should maybe free myself from From. So season four, we should say, is airing on Sky One. I think it starts this week. It starts on the Chex Notes 14th, Thursday the 14th. So actually later this week. And I've seen the first couple of episodes of it. And yes, there's a big kind of shift in the balance at the end of season three, which obviously I'm not going to spoil. And so it continues along that path. but it is more of the same. I do feel like we're getting answers now. I'm just not sure they're good answers. Does that make sense? Do you know this show? So just to give you an idea of the show, if you didn't listen to our first review of this, this is a weird town in the middle of somewhere America where any, it doesn't matter where you are in America, there'll be a bit where you'll be driving along and suddenly we'll be down in a country lane and there'll be a tree across the road with crows on it.

25:22Pilot TV Team:And if you see that tree, you're fucked because that basically means that you're now stuck in this town. You'll turn around and you'll go back into town and if you drive through town, you'll end up back in town again. like you can't ever escape you can never leave Helltale, California exactly you can never leave this town you're stuck there and then these grinning monsters come out at night and infuscerate people which is obviously less than ideal so that's the set up I'm going to level with you

25:43Steve Coogan:James it sounds absolutely terrible

25:45Pilot TV Team:well I mean it has that I mean my close personal friend Titus Wellever originally recommended this to me

25:50Steve Coogan:did Titus did what well I've got to watch it now because Titus Wellever is one of the greatest people who ever lived

25:55Pilot TV Team:even better than Gary Neville even better than Gary Neville

25:58Steve Coogan:I will not No, I will not take... I'm obsessed with that, sorry. Listen, I will not besperch the good name of Gary Neville. I will have nothing. She will neither besperch nor more besperch. No, no. Gary Neville is a wonderful human being. Okay, sorry.

26:11Pilot TV Team:Anyway, back to... Okay, Titus Welliver.

26:13Steve Coogan:When did you speak to Titus Welliver?

26:14Pilot TV Team:I did a Q &A for Bosch Legacy. Oh, he loved it. We were chatting afterwards, me and my friend Titus, and he said, oh, you should watch Rom, it's really good. So that's why I got started watching it.

26:20Steve Coogan:Titus Welliver once liked a tweet when I... I did like 12 tweets in my life. And I... It made your life. It literally did because I love Bosch

26:31Pilot TV Team:Yeah

26:31Steve Coogan:Wow, okay I'm a bit jealous of you See, Steph's another

26:33Pilot TV Team:I don't think you love Bosch as much as he loves Bosch No, you don't James James is like Mr. Bosch Why do you think

26:39Steve Coogan:you love Bosch more than me?

26:40Pilot TV Team:My Bosch love is pure and runs to my very soul

26:44Steve Coogan:Do you know that Titus Welliver is an incredible artist?

26:49Pilot TV Team:I didn't know that Right, well then you don't love Bosch as much as I do Well done You've one-upped him Thank you Like Hieronymus Bosch He's an incredible artist Wow, Bosch-related one-upping that's quite impressive you're full of amazing revelations Bosh B's Wales it's just extraordinary so anyway from season 4 so I'm watching it but I'm not sure I'm recommending it I'm just saying that I'm watching it that's all I'm saying is this the last season no there's going to be a fifth and final one and this one is already going all over the place and it's just I don't know it's quite rambling I remember enjoying the one episode we actually reviewed when we first started I think the first series was the best it was quite tight and it was all mystery Now I'm not sure I'm loving the way it's playing out and it's got a little bit tough.

27:30Pilot TV Team:People have left and come back and other things. So you can leave. Apparently, but only if you go through a magic lighthouse and a bottle tree, but let's not get into that. The other thing I've been watching is, do you remember Wolf Like Me? Ooh. Is this one with Isla Fisher, Josh Gad? Yes. And they start dating, but she's a werewolf. Werewolf. Yes. So I watched the whole first season of that. Haven't you mentioned this again? So season two came back, I don't remember when it came back, but we missed it completely. So we didn't review season two. But I started watching season two. I think the whole world reviewed.

28:03Pilot TV Team:Yeah. Didn't notice. But I'm now starting to understand why because I really like season one and I've watched the first couple of season two this week and I was a bit like, I'm not feeling it. Because at this point they're together, she's pregnant but she's still a werewolf and obviously that presents problems.

28:15Steve Coogan:Oh God, it's like that film. She's a pregnant werewolf. That film where the... Who's in that film? Oh my gosh, sorry.

28:20Pilot TV Team:I need more information than that, Steph.

28:22Steve Coogan:There's that film where the mum is actually a dog. What is that film? Oh, yes.

28:27Pilot TV Team:It's Amy Adams. Amy Adams. Night Bitch.

28:31Steve Coogan:Yeah, it's called Night Bitch. How do these things get?

28:35Pilot TV Team:It's quite a good film.

28:35Steve Coogan:Is it?

28:36Pilot TV Team:Yeah, it's decent. It's all metaphorical stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:38Steve Coogan:Oh, okay. But she actually does turn into a dog. Okay, so it's not... It's like magical real estate.

28:43Pilot TV Team:It's not a werewolf. No, she's not a werewolf. She just becomes a dog. Yeah.

28:47Steve Coogan:Okay, I'm just going to have to say this, guys. You know, I feel like werewolves are dogs. Well, they're canines. Yeah, they're part of the same Latin group of animals.

28:55Pilot TV Team:No, no, no, but it's very different to, anyway, to a werewolf, isn't it? She wasn't bitten by a golden retriever. She's a cute little dog. And then became a night bitch. All golden retrievers don't bite people.

29:05Steve Coogan:They're lovely. No, they probably do. But only if provoked. Anyway.

29:10Pilot TV Team:Like bees. Yes. Okay. I don't even know where we started with this. Wolf Lightning. You watched the whole second season. No, no, no. I watched the first two episodes. First of all, how did, again, the workings of your brain, how did you suddenly decide to go back to that show of all shows? Do you know what? I think it was something I saw on social media. I was like, oh my God, I'd forgotten about that show. I was like, I must go and watch some more of that. And I was like, oh my God, I should watch season two of that. It is on Prime Video, so you can stream both seasons now. And I watched the first couple and I've now stopped.

29:38Pilot TV Team:And I don't think I'm going back to it.

29:39Steve Coogan:Well, I've just read that there is no confirmation for season three because they're waiting to see how season two performs and I don't think there's ever going to be a season three.

29:45Pilot TV Team:No, I don't think there will either. You're going to be waiting a long time for that. So that was what I watched, quite randomly. So something I hated, something that was a guilty pleasure, and then something I just stopped.

29:55Steve Coogan:What a week for you. Yeah, what a week for TV.

29:57Pilot TV Team:Maybe it was the bees. I don't know. I think it could be the bees. It could be the bees. Okie dokie. Shall we have this week's listener question? Yes. Okay. Minor spoiler warning here for a whole bunch of shows we're about to talk about. They're all quite old, so it's nothing particularly recent, but we do talk obviously about some arcs and some of the arcs near the end of the show. So if you hear us start to talk about a show, and it's a show that you haven't seen, but you're planning to watch really, really soon, maybe skip ahead. That's your spoiler warning. Well, this week's listener question comes from Annika.

30:25Pilot TV Team:And Annika says, Question for you, Pod. Which TV character do you think has the worst slash most disappointing character arc? For me, I didn't like the general development of Nate's character in Ted Lasso. And I now can't continue that sentence because that would spoil things for Steph.

30:42Steve Coogan:No, no. I'm telling you, do you know what? Nate's on the turn. Yes, steady. He's starting to be a bit snappy.

30:48Pilot TV Team:Yes, and that's a plot line that continues.

30:51Steve Coogan:Being a bit snappy, he's being a bit mean to people, and I think he's on the turn.

30:55Pilot TV Team:Well, that's a controversial heel turn for that character.

30:58Steve Coogan:Because he's delightful.

30:59Pilot TV Team:Yes, he was.

31:01Steve Coogan:Oh, he's going into a bit of a shit.

31:02Pilot TV Team:We won't go into the details of it, but yes, that was, I think, the most controversial storyline in Ted Lasso. People didn't really love that or feel that it was fair to the character. Because he's so nice. Was. Or was he? Anyway.

31:13Steve Coogan:Okay, carry on.

31:14Pilot TV Team:So there's that. Spoiler redacted. Daenerys in Game of Thrones, who quickly became unlikable in the series two. The worst for me, though, has to be Aiden. from Sex and the City. I was team Aiden all the way through the show, but on and just like that, he's portrayed as gross, selfish, and frankly, all-round awful. Or was he always like that? I would love to hear your views. Annika, were you team Aiden, Steph?

31:36Steve Coogan:I loved it in Sex and the City when he broke up with Carrie because she cheated on him, and then he got super hot and they got back together. That was the whole, I loved that whole storyline. I think Aidan should have been kept in the past I don't think he should have been in Yeah completely He was infuriating He was infuriating and he's just a bit like he was a bit wet sometimes and also his whole storyline didn't make any sense you know when he was like you've got to wait five years all that rubbish I really didn't so I totally agree with that but do you know who else's story arc I'm going to controversially say I didn't like also from Sex and the City I didn't particularly like Miranda Hobbes because I think the original finale of Sex and the City if you remember there's a scene where you know her partner's mum and she's found in the streets and it's Ben Stiller's mum who plays the character do you remember?

32:39Steve Coogan:and she becomes she becomes this because she's thus hard and loyal she gets a softness to her obviously she gets a softness when she has her child but I mean the original finale of Sex and City was one of the greatest finales ever I'm going to leave that there we don't need opinions on that because it just is

32:55Pilot TV Team:she's off to Paris with Mikhail Baryshikov

32:57Steve Coogan:no she comes back that's the whole point she comes back because he brings her back doesn't he oh what's that in the film oh I'm getting confused I think that was in the film didn't she end no no no the original series finale is she comes back and then at the end she goes to the coffee house with the girls

33:10Pilot TV Team:oh okay but there was a whole Paris element to it wasn't it the Paris element yeah it was the two-parter And she ended up with him in Paris. He was a bit of a twat. She had terrible taste in men, that character, right? Big, I don't even like big. I never liked big. I was like, what are you seeing in this fucking... It's noath, actually.

33:26Steve Coogan:Yeah. There is that as well. The thing about the big character, if you watch from season one, is he was always an arsehole. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So he actually just stayed like that. And she just really... Why is she... I know. We can't get into her choices. She's got a lot of problems. Anyway, so I didn't... I think Miranda... I don't know, she lost some of her strength and resilience, and I found that. And I know it's because she was navigating a new world, but I didn't like that for her. Because I really enjoyed her. She was the sensible one out of all of them, but also this hugely intelligent woman who was incredibly accomplished and didn't need anyone.

34:04Steve Coogan:And then she sort of turned a bit wet and needy, and I didn't enjoy that for her. So I would say her. But also, I would say, and I think maybe this person had said that. Do you know who else I didn't like? Jamie, Game of Thrones, Jamie Lannister, what happened to him is really annoying.

34:21Pilot TV Team:That's interesting because people do focus on Daenerys quite a lot. But yes, Jamie's arc is arguably the most frustrating.

34:29Steve Coogan:It's really frustrating. Why would he at the end, why would he at the end stay in the crumbling castle with his sister wife? Like why? Sister wife. Yeah, but why would he do that after he's fallen in love with...

34:43Pilot TV Team:It undoes his whole redemption arc, which he's been going through this redemption arc throughout the entire show.

34:48Steve Coogan:Yes, and I don't want him to.

34:49Pilot TV Team:And then they reverse the redemption arc at the very end, and he goes back to Cersei after having shagged Bran of Tarth.

34:54Steve Coogan:Yes, and thinking it's Bran of Tarth. Like, that's beautiful. And he becomes such... He actually becomes a really beloved character. And you're like, he's wonderful. Yeah, of course he shoved what's-his-face off the building in the first one. And that's awful. And then there's that very awful other scene with Cersei. But we won't get into that. But he does become incredibly likeable and he becomes noble. And why would you have to do that at the end? Because is it saying that his core is actually a massive shit?

35:20Pilot TV Team:I don't think it's that. I think the idea was that his obsession with Cersei is just something he can never get away from. But ultimately, he's so obsessed with her that even though he thinks he's broken away from her, he still feels that pull. But it does feel a little bit like you've just undone all this work you've done. What are you doing? It's like a relapse.

35:38Steve Coogan:I think that's really problematic though because he does undo it and he's consistent with his undoing of his tethering to Cersei throughout like definitely like the last season you don't see him being pulled back at all and it really is just the last bit and I don't think that's realistic I mean not much of that show is realistic but it is wonderful

35:57Pilot TV Team:Interestingly George R.R. Martin has said that Jaime Lannister is on a very different path in the books because I think his break from Cersei is much more definitive in the books and I don't think he had any intention of having him reverse that Boyd makes a very valid point. It's been 15 years. We are never getting the last two books, so it doesn't really matter. But yes. But there's loads of... People have loads of issues with the Game of Thrones arcs of pretty much all the characters. The bells. The bells. The Daenerys one is the one people talk about the most. It's like she did this sudden villain turn.

36:25Pilot TV Team:And yes, we talked about this quite a lot. And when I re-watched it... A tedious argument about it. Yes, we did have a big argument about it. But when I re-watched it, I was more in your camp about it.

36:33Steve Coogan:What was the crux of the argument?

36:35Pilot TV Team:Well, because I was just like, she goes from nought to 60. She goes from beloved Danny to screaming sociopath overnight. And I think it's not quite that simple because I think they definitely layer in her madness and she has hard edges and actually that this is always inside her. I think ultimately what it comes down to is that the final season is so rushed and so truncated. It is rushed. You have a very gradual arc which then suddenly accelerates dramatically. And so then it doesn't ring true because it happens too quickly. It needed to be more evened out.

37:06Steve Coogan:Oh, I'd agree with that. Because when she's on the dragon and she starts literally just burning people at the end, you're like, oh. And that does feel like, oh, all of a sudden, it feels like, you know, a flip has switched. A flip has switched. A switch has like flipped. And it isn't gradual enough. It isn't.

37:25Pilot TV Team:Well, I think it's all deployed early enough. Well, because Boyd, that's the thing. The thing is that Boyd does that. Like when the bells ring, Boyd just goes. Like you just don't know what's going to happen. He'll set you on fire and he won't even think twice about it.

37:36Steve Coogan:I also think it's quite annoying that Cersei in the end tries to be nice and she's not

37:40Pilot TV Team:well Cersei's demise was very was just badly handled as well I mean that I would say completely like completely thrown away she's absolutely you know brilliant brilliant character spoilers for Game of Thrones by the way

37:49Steve Coogan:I mean if you haven't yeah that's true

37:51Pilot TV Team:I mean who's gonna

37:53Steve Coogan:watch you know there might be someone

37:55Pilot TV Team:desperately scrabbling to watch the whole of Game of Thrones and the House of the Dragon in time for the start of the new season and we've just come in about a month's time we've just ruined

38:02Steve Coogan:okay well you should just re we should all re-watch it because I mean I've already re-watched it once I'm going to do it again

38:07Pilot TV Team:don't encourage him to re-watch it again there's one on the cusp I am actually thinking about it oh no

38:11Steve Coogan:you should do it

38:12Pilot TV Team:you should do it

38:13Steve Coogan:I love a game because the game of thrones whenever it's on I always watch it whatever episode and I get totally like yeah I'm totally there again

38:20Pilot TV Team:I mean I've said it before I'll say it again it is brilliant from that point of view the superiority of it can be ascertained how am I speaking like this I don't know I feel like I've turned into who's the like the boxer what's his name Chris Eubank Chris Eubank speaks in flowery language. But I do think, I think you're right. If you stumble upon a random episode of Game of Thrones, it's always brilliantly written, isn't it? And that does, you know, separate from a lot of other, frankly, shoddier fantasy shows. I don't know what you're doing with that. Do not come for the Wheel of Time or I will fucking go full Daenerys on you.

38:53Pilot TV Team:I didn't mention the Wheel of Time. I knew what you were thinking. So, yeah. Okay, that's a good shout. Any of you would like to add, Wally? I am going to say the entire female cast of Euphoria

39:04Steve Coogan:You and your euphoria bashing. I don't even watch euphoria.

39:07Pilot TV Team:No, I think this is fair. Honestly. So I read an interesting piece on this, and they were talking about how euphoria has always been misogynistic, and it's always exploited its female characters. However, when it was in the context of a school, you kind of allowed it because it conformed to high school tropes and stereotypes that we're all too familiar with. But when they're adults in the outside world, it just feels grim and exploitative in a way that it didn't previously. So it's almost like it's laid bare the misogyny. And also, it's more than that. They're putting Sam Levinson, they're creating.

39:36Pilot TV Team:By the way, I have not watched episode four. And I've had quite a few people message me saying episode four is the best episode so far of the season. Because we had one to three to watch. Critics, like us, had episodes one to three to watch in advance where they didn't send more than that, which is interesting in itself. So I haven't seen episode four. Maybe it's better. But I have actually, I do know vaguely what happens in it. It's just they're putting, like, Rue Zendaya, who's absolutely brilliant, of course. and she's one of the most brilliant actresses in the world at making anything she does, you feel for her and you relate to her.

40:10Pilot TV Team:But what they're putting her through, her poor character, is just excruciating. It's more that every female character is considered fodder for him to shock us as to what they're being put through and what they put themselves through. Whether it's the OnlyFans story, which is now already a cliche because there's about three other shows that are also doing OnlyFans-type material in their storylines. Margot. Margot's got money troubles. Exactly. But there's also, like, the whole drug mule thing was excruciating to watch. And it was like, you're putting... It doesn't do that with the male characters.

40:44Pilot TV Team:I mean, people... Jacob and Lordy's character, what happens to him at the end of episode three is not nice, right? I'll try not to spoil it if you haven't caught up yet. But it's different. there's something different about the way he treats the female characters in this season from before and actually I don't even think I think you know like Rue has always been she has addiction issues addiction issues but I think she was always very dealt with she was always a three dimensional character for me and very real and she had issues but she tried to overcome them and I just thought that they've completely up till now the third episodes that I've seen three episodes I've seen for me ruined her character as well so I am open to see what happens in the rest of the series but that's what came to mind in answer to this question was pretty much every female character in Euphoria not just Rue but the others as well Sydney Sweeney you know her OnlyFans storyline it's just a bit basic and obvious so yeah there we go that's my feeling right now apologies to Euphoria diehards who are still telling me oh you'll get messages I have a few honourable mentions there's a list There's a full list.

41:53Pilot TV Team:Of course, there always is. Richard Schiff has been very vocal about Toby's turn towards the end of the West Wing when, you know, when he, the incident involving the space shuttle. Yeah. Yeah? Right. Where it turns out he's the leak in the White House. And it's like this whole leak thing. And he was just furious about it. So furious about it. I saw John Wells about this and John Wells kind of, John Wells got a little irritated when he's like, oh, Richard was never happy. And he was just like, but Richard Schiff was heartbroken because he felt that was a betrayal of the character because that's just something the character would never have done.

42:23Pilot TV Team:And I always thought, I'm not sure that's true. The idea that, so the idea is that there's a, the astronauts are stranded on the space station and there's no shuttle that can go and get them and there's basically a military shuttle and he reveals the existence of the military shuttle so they have to send it up to get the astronauts, thereby sort of violating whatever national secret attacks they've got. But his brother was an astronaut and his brother died. His brother killed himself. So I kind of thought, actually, I didn't think it was that big a stretch that he would be so invested in the welfare of these astronauts, kind of projecting his brother onto them, that actually maybe he would have done that.

42:59Pilot TV Team:But I just don't think it was particularly well executed. I don't think it was well handled. So I think it was the end of the world for the character, but I think the way it was done, maybe not ideal. The other thing is, and again, sorry, we're rolling out the greatest hits of things that I always talk about, but, you know, Terry isn't here, but if she were here, she would say Spike's arc in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never watched him. Shocking. His obsession with Buffy, which culminates in him trying to rape her in one episode, is so ill-thought-out that it makes that character irredeemable from that point.

43:31Pilot TV Team:And he'd actually been a really... Because James Masters plays that character really well. But I think that particular episode is really hard to watch, and it's just a horrible, horrible storyline, so I don't like that. Deb and Dexter. You remember Dexter, his sister, Deb, Jennifer Carpenter? They get shipped in season six, where they become obsessed with each other, or she, I think, more with him. and it's like who thought that was a good idea in the writer's room I thought you literally meant they got shipped off they got shipped off on a boat they get shipped together shipped

43:57Steve Coogan:that's you know like shipped together

43:59Pilot TV Team:genuinely terrible can't stand that that's very very upsetting and also Stranger Things you know like when Jonathan becomes like a feckless stoner and you're just like who thought that was a good story he's played by Charlie Charlie yeah and so that was terrible and that's also I think it's around the same time because when they go to California where Mike in season three just becomes a massive knob. You know? So Finn Wolfhard's character who has been kind of the emotional core of the show he's essentially the de facto lead he becomes this colossal bellend when he moves to California and honestly I'm not sure it ever really comes back from that.

44:34Pilot TV Team:He's pretty much a dick all the way through after that and I just I don't know why that character suddenly becomes a knob. I think he's redeemed in the final season, isn't he? Really? Yeah. I mean there's still some bellendry going on. Teenagers do you know do have phases he's a dick to his friend he goes off his friend he's a dick to his girlfriend and Al's having a really bad time and he's a shitty boyfriend as well and he just becomes really obnoxious and punchable and I just didn't I don't know why they did that

45:00Steve Coogan:I've just thought of another one did you watch did you both watch Sons of Anarchy of course I actually think Gemma the mum I didn't like how her story ended

45:08Pilot TV Team:I know what you mean actually I know exactly what you're referring to but we can't say

45:13Steve Coogan:because it's a huge spoiler we've spoiled about

45:15Pilot TV Team:five other shows I know no you're right I think Gemma was ill served in that and the way she goes out I'm not sure that rang true

45:21Steve Coogan:oh I that would not have happened no there's no way and it was just it was completely yeah I mean we can't talk about it without saying exactly what happened but yeah I would say that she didn't deserve it

45:36Pilot TV Team:no I think you're supposed to understand that he lives in a world that's governed by certain immutable rules and you cannot violate those rules and that's just what happens and she understands that

45:46Steve Coogan:as you see in that scene that we're not going to go into. But actually in that scene. But it's still, it was, I don't know. It wasn't the kind of ceremony that she should have gone out. She shouldn't have gone out like that. It shouldn't have happened like that. No, yeah, that was actually making me feel even more disappointed.

46:01Pilot TV Team:Yeah.

46:02Steve Coogan:Are you a Sons of Anarchy fan?

46:03Pilot TV Team:I stopped watching it after a couple of seasons. Not because I didn't like it, I liked it. I just ran, it just didn't fit into my schedule.

46:10Steve Coogan:Okay, well now we've told you what happened at the end.

46:11Pilot TV Team:I wasn't listening, I still listening. Yeah, Boyd had a whole season of Love Rat to watch, so there was no way he could fit in Sons of Anarchy.

46:16Steve Coogan:Anyway, we've gone off topic.

46:17Pilot TV Team:Yeah, it's not as good as a shield though, which is better.

46:19Steve Coogan:No, that's true.

46:20Pilot TV Team:I can't remember what the topic was. It's hard to say.

46:22Steve Coogan:Thank you. It was character arcs.

46:23Pilot TV Team:Oh yeah, that's right. Good, right. That rambling nonsense was the listener question. If you would like your listener question answered, I'm going to say email pilottv at empiremagazine.com and the reason I'm going to say that is because the new email address, postbag at pilottvpod.com, doesn't seem to work for everyone and I've got our IT department looking into it, but I don't know what's happening there. So if you have had bounce backs and whatnot, please revert to pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. It's 2026 and we can't get a mailbox. Yes.

46:49Steve Coogan:No, I know. Genuinely true. We're in like AI territory and we can't even get a mailbox. It's ridiculous.

46:55Pilot TV Team:We can't get emails. So apologies for that. Okay. But yes, if you would like to send stuff in, that is, for the time being, the address. Okay. Shall we have this week's guest? I think we should since he came in to see us specially. It's none other than the legendary Mr. Stephen Coogan who can be seen at the moment in Legends on Netflix, which is a 1990 set show in which Coogan puts together a team of customs officials and sends them deep, deep, deep, deep, deep undercover to root out drugs gangs. And it's very, very good, and we enjoyed it and reviewed it on The Last Pilot Plus. Now, Steve popped into the office recently, into our studio, to chat with Boydie while I sat quietly and worked the desk.

47:36Pilot TV Team:It was lovely. It was lovely. This is Steve Coogan talking to Boyd. Hello, Steve Coogan. Welcome to the Pilot TV podcast. How are you this day? I'm very well. Good. We're here to talk ostensibly about Legends, new Netflix. Comedy drama, just drama? What do you think? No, definitely not a comedy drama. No, that would somehow misrepresent it. It's definitely a drama, but like all good drama, there are laughs along the way. But no, comedy. yeah I mean there's some bits where you laugh at it there's some good lines in it but I wouldn't describe it as a comedy drama no let me say you as Don you play this character I think it's an amalgam of different real people yeah I mean the series is about undercover customs officers who bust this heroin importation thing by sort of gangsters in the late 80s early 90s so So, yeah, I play Don, this sort of undercover guy.

48:45Pilot TV Team:But what was the original question? It was, is he an amalgam of different real people? Oh, yeah, so Don is, yeah. Anyway, so Neil actually came to me with this story and this script offered me the part of Don. And he is based on these real events that happened all those years ago. But he, as in all these things, when you're storytelling for the sake of not making a story unwieldy, several characters are sort of combined into one, which is the character I play, Don, head of customs. You know, as a writer myself, sometimes if you're doing a real story, if you depicted everyone who had a say in the events, it wouldn't be an hour of drama, it would be six hours of drama for each episode.

49:37Pilot TV Team:and you'd lose track of who's saying what. So for storytelling reasons, I am an amalgam of some real people. And the events are real. And some characters are more closely based on, for example, Tom's character, Guy, Tom Burke plays Guy, and that is based on an individual. Right, right. But it struck me, your character, Don is like the guy, he's almost like the kind of Charlie in Charlie's Angels. He's kind of in charge of this group of people. and he's got leadership quality to him. I mean, basically, you do get all the best lines, I think, as well, quite rightly, because there's a charisma to him, and there's a kind of almost a bit competency porn as well, to use that phrase about him, that he knows what he's doing and he imparts that knowledge very well.

50:25Pilot TV Team:Yeah, it's nice. I mean, yeah, there is a kind of a man of few words who just gets on with it, sort of a vanishing breed of old school sort of meat and potatoes, guys from a working class background who, you know, people who can fix things and put things together and just practical and have common sense and are resourceful because they have to be. So for me, he was quite a familiar character to play because there is that generation of men who could turn their hand to most things and were quite disciplined, hardworking, and learned at the, in inverted commas, University of Life, rather than being sort of graduate, those graduate law enforcement people who've taken over in the last 30 years, probably for very good reasons, but sometimes you can't help feeling that we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and we could do it with a bit more common sense and practicality.

51:28Pilot TV Team:back in law enforcement agencies. So Don is someone I feel really familiar with and is someone who is perhaps not... I'm trying to know how to phrase this. Probably wouldn't be in line with current HR protocols. Yes, definitely. But nevertheless, beneath the sort of slightly abrasive exterior, you know that he's someone who gives a damn about people and their welfare and looks out for the people in his charge and uses humor as a way of communicating and showing affection, as a lot of generation of working class men do, which is that might not be the most emotionally open. In fact, they're probably quite a bit repressed, but they do express their affection through humour and sometimes sport.

52:33Pilot TV Team:He's a proper working class northerner and it strikes me as being quite rare actually for you, weirdly, to do an accent that is more or less your accent, perhaps slightly even more working class than you are now. Yeah, it's sort of my unfiltered... I mean, I'm from Manchester. if I go back to Manchester they think I sound posh and if I hang out with some of my posh friends they think I sound working class so it sort of depends where I am but I went to drama school and they smooth off the rough edges and I mean I used to do full on receive pronunciation I mean I used to say now there's even more for your money than Hasda so it's not breaking any kind of advertising protocol I mean that's what I used to do I learned to do things in that and then I sort of went off and did various things, comedy but none of them were really northern well, it happened for some years I dipped my toe into stuff way back in the past so I hadn't played any roles I played a lot of real people I played like 10 or 11 real people but none of them have been northern but it was one of those itches that I wanted to scratch was to play someone closer to my own background and a character, like I said, I did feel familiar with.

53:55Pilot TV Team:I've known lots of that generation of men from northern working class men who are professionally very competent and in a meritocratic way got to the top of their professions. and I feel like they have this sort of common sense coupled with this integrity. But they don't take themselves too seriously either. Yes. So it felt like a very comfortable territory for me and in fact it was enjoyable to play because I felt like it was just putting on an old jacket or something, something that I felt comfortable and lived in. Yeah, yeah. But it's also interesting to see him, to see you in the middle of what is, it would have been a police procedural or, you know, it's involving customers, officers rather than the police.

54:46Pilot TV Team:But it's interesting to see you in that context and then, you know, there's action, there's car chases, you're confronted by dodgy villains, you know, at one point. It's interesting to see you in that world. It's not my normal territory and that's what interested me as well because I thought I quite like to, I like the fact that I get to do different things and I can move around a bit and I, you know, some people make a career doing the same thing over and over and it's the way to get rich but you also become pigeonholed, typecast and I like the fact that I'm able to move around, just don't stand still long enough to be boxed in so and I hadn't I used to look at police procedurals as they call them, where people have to explain, spend a lot of their dialogue explaining the plot and a lot of their dialogue explaining what's just happened for any viewers who are too slow enough to keep up with what's going on.

55:42Pilot TV Team:And I'd see that stuff and think, please don't ever let me do that stuff when you're just having to... It's like offloading goods, not saying dialogue. You just sort of try to communicate information. And I ended up in one. But there was a bit more meat on the bone to this. I like the fact that it's the irregularities. Nothing wrong with police procedures or stuff like that. I mean, everyone likes it. Everyone likes to know if there's a whodunit. Everyone likes to engage and think, try and get ahead of the game and tax their grey matter. But this one was different in that it concentrated a lot on character.

56:20Pilot TV Team:And the script was good and sharp. And I liked the fact that Don had this wit to him. I felt like I got a handle on him fairly quickly. so so yeah I ended up doing something I didn't think I'd do and I enjoyed it in fact I watched it with my partner and she and I actually wanted to watch the next episode and because it's a long time since I've done it I started to become engaged in it and actually started buying into the jeopardy of the characters and you knew what was happening next yeah but you sort of you get drawn into it and then you forget and then because it's a year since you did it and you start to get into the whole experience of it and I really, really enjoyed just thinking, I know they're in trouble and then suddenly I'd walk into the scene and I'd think, oh no, it's just a drama on TV and I'm in it.

57:16Pilot TV Team:Yes. I do think Neil Forsyth is really clever at telling true stories which involve normal people, often normal working class people and that's kind of one of his strengths, the gold I think did that. Yes, it did indeed. Yeah. Yeah. thank you for agreeing what kind of stuff do you I was going to ask you you sat and watched it with your partner what kind of stuff do you are you a consumer of you know prestige TV and on streams etc you know I like to watch you know I remember what was the last two big things I mean you know I got hooked on succession I should tell these but I've always been asked this I can never remember what it is I watch but you know I do watch sort of like what most people watch I normally watch like history programs on BBC and on iPlayer.

58:04Pilot TV Team:And then I sort of go around and see what's on Netflix, see if there's any new interesting documentary. I'm a bit of a documentary sort of consumer. I like docs before I watched my... Or I just go back and start watching things like old Hitchcock movies that I haven't actually seen, really obscure ones. I like to sort of start to dive into old westerns. kind of like well I did I think I'd spoken about this when I talked to Louis Theroux I really got into Foil's War which is something I never watched first time round because it was a bit too prosaic and pedestrian for me and then the things that I found perhaps made me overlook it the first time round I really enjoyed the fact that it's just a nice warm bath drama that's not got horrible people in it and normally only one person a week gets murdered and the world just it seems like a nice place to be absolutely I'm not quite there yet I can almost see the appeal of Last of the Summer Wine that's how old I'm getting you've got like 150 episodes of that in your future to enjoy yeah fantastic talking of Prestige TV it has been rumoured I don't think it's been officially confirmed that you're in the White Lotus I am about to fly out next week to start shooting that can you say anything about that at all?

59:20Pilot TV Team:all I think I can say is that I've read the script and they are, I mean, I watched the first two series and I thought, I mean, that's something I watched. I mean, I watched those. I hadn't watched the third season but I really enjoyed it. I really liked, Mike White, you know, years ago did some independent movies that I really liked. He did a film called Chuck and Buck about 30 years ago and it was really great. I remember it saved me. I thought, this guy's amazing and so, and I think I did. I remember watching the second season thinking, why don't they get me in this series? I'd be great for it and then, Yeah, so I got a phone call from him a few months ago saying that they wanted me in the next season.

1:00:03Pilot TV Team:So I've read it and I think it's funny. It's as good as the other ones. It's like what you'd expect, but I can't go into detail, but basically it's set in a hotel and lots of different people interact in unusual and unexpected ways and there's some misbehavior and there's some explicit stuff and it's fun and interesting and all that. I was going to say, there is explicit sexual action in most of it. Will you be involved? I will be challenged in my performance and go to places I haven't been before. but I'm looking forward to doing that in a very professional way. I cannot wait. Is he an Alan Partridge fan, do you know?

1:00:53Pilot TV Team:I think he's seen the bottom. Yes. I mean, I can't imagine he's not because the producers loved it. But I think they mentioned the trip and 24-hour party people. Interestingly enough, 24-hour party people in the US has this cult following that it never really had here. I mean, some people know about it here but if anyone edgy or cool or stoned in the US generally says, hey, you're in 24-hour party people and that's all they want to talk about. I remember I spent an evening chatting with this guy and he asked me everything. He spent the best part of an hour just grilling me about 24-hour party people.

1:01:32Pilot TV Team:In the end, he said, oh, I'm in a band. I said, oh, you... And I never asked him anything about him. I said, oh, are you doing all right? He said, yeah, we're doing okay. I said, well, what's your band called? He said, what are you doing in the band? Oh, I'm the singer. Oh, and I'll look out for you. What's your name? He said, we're called Kings of Leon. I went, oh, okay, I've heard of you. Yeah, you're doing okay. That's true. So that movie is, so I think... You played Tony Wilson there, because they wouldn't even know who Tony Wilson is. Well, they know all the bands, that the bands made it across there.

1:02:02Pilot TV Team:And people who have got Anglophiles over there like that music which is off kilter, which is left of center. LA and New York that's where that film landed but the people who are into weirdly the guys I'm starting to find out now as I get older that producers and people who are making interesting stuff are hiring me because when they were at college or school they watched my stuff and now they're becoming movers and shakers and they're giving me gigs and this is one of those I'm very grateful it's paying off finally finally I was at the RTS Awards last week when you quite rightly won for Alan Partridge for the brilliant How Are You it's Alan Partridge series and you got BAFTA nominated as well yeah that's nice it's brilliant you're still getting recognition of how good that character is and how brilliant that well I'm glad and I think I hope myself and Rob and Neil Gibbons and the team that make it we do we are our own worst critics and we make sure the quality is there, we never phone it in, we always you know We throw away more than we use, and we make sure it passes muster that we think, would we want to watch it?

1:03:19Pilot TV Team:And so to get a nod is pretty good, given that there's a danger of just thinking, well, we've won plenty of awards before. Why not give someone else a chance? But I mean, it didn't win, but it was nominated for Best Scripted Comedy, I think. and I think it's I'd rather that had won and I hadn't because Rob and Neil who write it are really sort of purist and quite dedicated to making sure the quality is up there and it's never been better and so I it's nice to get a nod and it's a character that I don't think I'll ever fully abandon people have stopped saying are you going to kill the character off because he's got bored of asking me we know you won't and in a way you know had I not had any other gig I would be more likely to have killed it off but because I'm able to do this other stuff that keeps my interest then going back to Bartridge is always a pleasure and it's something we do through choice not because we have to so and I think now the other characters like Lynn and Psychic Simon in the last series just the stuff on them is fantastic they've become almost as great characters well as great characters yeah Lynn and well Felicity Montague and Tim Key who plays Simon Denton Tim's great success with The Ballad of Wallace Island of course great to see him like bloom like a flower he's sort of been heading in that direction it was a perfect movie for him yeah so we'll next thing we do we want to bring those characters back and forth what we do is we only show little bits of those characters so it kind of like leaves the audience sort of makes the audience salivate a bit thinking come on we want a bit more of that well I think whatever we do next time we'll definitely bring a bit more, as long as Tim hasn't priced himself out of our bracket with his newfound success.

1:05:11Pilot TV Team:That tete-a-tete scene in it between the two of you over drinking tea outside the radio studio. Role-playing therapy. That was like De Niro and Pacino for me in Heat. That was like the above and the two of you did. He's really good at that stuff. It's great when you work with people who know what they're doing and I can honestly say even now after all these years you know i alan partridge still i still find the character funny and still have ideas for him and he's just become a sort of a mechanism to talk about stuff that's increasingly difficult to talk about uh that alan alan's still a kind of safe space to to you can sort of talk about almost anything if you do it through alan and that's why we chose mental health for last series because you know most people go you shouldn't make fun of that and we're not making fun about it we're laughing through it and around it and with it we're not laughing at it yeah so um yeah absolutely we run out of time thank you so much steve we could talk all day i could take a day to you thank you so much thanks for and congratulations legends thank you thank you that was steve gugan and time now for this week's news now before we begin news we have certain rules there are rules for this podcast and these rules these rules govern what we are and are not allowed to talk about.

1:06:31Pilot TV Team:And we have a safe space. We have a kind of an amnesty zone, which is what we've been watching section, whereby you guys can talk about all this nonsense, reality bullshit, and I can't do anything about it. Now, normally, we would not allow any of that nonsense to infiltrate the news section as per the bylaws of this particular podcast. However, in this particular instance, I shall give you a limited amount of latitude to talk about celebrity traits. I didn't realise, James, I did not realise you're such a Jerry Hall fan. I mean, it's exciting. Yeah.

1:07:02Steve Coogan:Come on, Jim. The line-up is fantastic.

1:07:05Pilot TV Team:Patrick Stewart is not in it.

1:07:06Steve Coogan:He's not. And that was your rule that you were going to start watching. Michael Sheen's in it.

1:07:11Pilot TV Team:Miranda Hart's in it. My Harlow from Industry is in it. Richard E. Grant is in it.

1:07:15Steve Coogan:It's a great...

1:07:16Pilot TV Team:Bella Ramsey is in it. I'm getting there. I was leaving it to the end. You ruined it. Oh, well. And Bella Ramsey.

1:07:24Steve Coogan:The Last of Us.

1:07:25Pilot TV Team:What is really interesting about this cast for me and it has broader implications for the industry as a whole which is why we should be discussing it on this podcast is they've got a whole load of really respected and admired and successful young actors like Myhala like Sebastian Croft Sharon Rooney Robin Romesh Robin Romesh but I'm talking about particularly the actors and Bella Ramsey all of whom could have perfectly successful careers without being on celebrity traitors and I think this is the whole revolution in the world of reality TV because this particular show is so respected and admired in the world of reality TV you can't dismiss it's just another reality show it's so brilliant in and of itself that these young actors who are very credible and talented are happy to do it and they're not looking down on it like certain snobbish people would

1:08:17Steve Coogan:but it's a game isn't it and so you've got

1:08:18Pilot TV Team:like Bella Rams but the whole point is they like the format they like the show they love doing and they love the idea of being a part of it and that's what's happening with these brilliant actors. So I would say Bella Ramsey, particularly my harlot, almost even more, I was like, wow, that for her agent, you know, she's in industry and she's brilliant in industry.

1:08:38Steve Coogan:You're now going to get like six more State of the Industries just from this, you know, your little section that you used to do just from Celebrity Traitors to talk about her.

1:08:45Pilot TV Team:Absolutely. Amazing. It's going to be incredible. Thank you, yeah. So I just find the whole thing fascinating that you've got, it's a whole, that is a big, big change in the whole world of reality TV. but I think it is particularly due to this show. I don't think we're going to start suddenly seeing Bella Ramsey in Big Brother or the equivalent. I think it's because this show is so brilliant and enticing.

1:09:06Steve Coogan:It's cerebral reality TV. Let's put it that way. It is. It is, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They're not sitting around studying Proust. I don't even think... No, but they are because it's all about... They are studying Proust. Okay, they're not. They can know if they want. But it is, you know...

1:09:22Pilot TV Team:I don't think it's the story to interrupt. I don't think it's the cerebralness that is the key I think it's the addictiveness of the whole idea of having people in your midst who you can't trust and you don't know the extent of it it's such a seductive format

1:09:38Steve Coogan:the psychology of it, this is why you like it

1:09:40Pilot TV Team:I would say, rather than being cerebral I would say it's not quite the level of brain rot that a lot of this reality stuff is that's what I mean so cerebral might be overstating but I do get what you're saying it feels like there is a sheen of quality and engagement to it that is not just watching Big Brother where people are just being idiots.

1:09:58Steve Coogan:Oh my God, you love reality TV.

1:09:59Pilot TV Team:I really don't. So the question is though, with one of your favourite young actresses, Bella Ramsey, from The Last of Us in it, are you going to watch it? He's thinking. I'm not ruling it out. Oh, okay, that's good.

1:10:12Steve Coogan:Okay, are you happy with the amount of time that we've spent on it?

1:10:15Pilot TV Team:We've spent far too much time talking about the trailers. Okay, Richard, stop talking about it now. On behalf of everyone who doesn't like reality TV, I'm just apologising to all of you.

1:10:22Steve Coogan:But let's just, it has got better Ramsey in it, so that is exciting.

1:10:25Pilot TV Team:Yeah. So you're saying it's tangential last of our season three news. Exactly. Hell completely.

1:10:31Steve Coogan:Okay. Did you guys know that Neighbours, the early years, is returning to screens in a 420 episode deal? Did you know that? What?

1:10:39Pilot TV Team:I mean...

1:10:40Steve Coogan:Just saying. Neighbours is coming back, back.

1:10:42Pilot TV Team:So I opened the door to reality TV and now we're just letting soaps in as well. The whole news section's gone to shit at this point.

1:10:48Steve Coogan:That's all I need to tell you. People love Neighbours. Do they? Yes. yes

1:10:52Pilot TV Team:I mean it was where Kylie started so

1:10:54Steve Coogan:it was where Margot Robbie started as well there's a lot of great people who've come out neighbours so they're just

1:10:59Pilot TV Team:they're just churning out they're just making available old episodes yeah because they revived it didn't they then they're cancelled and they revived it again they did that great final episode

1:11:07Steve Coogan:where Margot Robbie was in it yes and then there

1:11:09Pilot TV Team:it was a whole palaver there were loads of stars in it weren't there who'd been in it before and then it wasn't the final episode yeah it was a bit embarrassing

1:11:15Steve Coogan:ridiculous anyway it's coming back well

1:11:18Pilot TV Team:right do we have any on brand yes

1:11:21Steve Coogan:Yes, here we go. Line of Duties, Daniel Mays. It's going to be, it is Channel 5 drama, but it is, listen, it's Daniel Mays though. Believe Me is Daniel Mays.

1:11:29Pilot TV Team:Huh? Believe, we're about to review the show. Yeah, Believe Me. I thought you just said the bee's knees Daniel Mays because that means a good actor. Believe Me is Daniel Mays.

1:11:37Steve Coogan:Hold on, Game of Thrones Joel Fry is in it and Happy Valley's Amit Shah and it's going to be, they're starring in this thing called Wild, which is a dramedy. It's in the Scottish Highlands. Three friends on a camping trip. It's got Daniel Mays in it. Come on, it's going to be brilliant. Okay. Okay. Boyd.

1:11:53Pilot TV Team:Variety, I'm indebted to Variety, the showbiz Bible, who, do you remember last week we were talking about The White Lotus and the fact that Helena Bonham Carter left the show after a week of filming and what Variety's done is they have, because remember I was saying it was confusing as to whether Laura Dern, who's drafted into play, was taking over from Helena Bonham Carter or not. It was quite confusing and complicated. what Variety's done. They've done a whole big feature, thankfully, because they've got the budget for this. They've basically sent loads of people to where they're filming The White Lotus in the south of France, to the actual hotels where they're talking to people who are like, may or may not, or trying to be in the show as extras.

1:12:34Pilot TV Team:They're talking about, you know, the whole, the fact that it's being filmed against the backdrop of the Cannes Film Festival, which starts quite soon. So I think the whole thing is that Mike White, the writer-director of The White Lotus, is going to be using that backdrop of the actual Cannes Film Festival this year while he's filming his characters, his created characters. It's quite a clever idea. But what I wanted to say was, they talked about the Helena Bonham Carter imbroglio, as I'm calling it. And they say, White had written a washed-out star, the character of a washed-out star who's chasing a comeback.

1:13:08Pilot TV Team:And that role was set for Helena Bonham Carter. She left after nearly a week on set over creative differences involving Mike White's demand for a boisterous performance from her. He wanted her to be more boisterous, which I find absolutely hilarious. Obviously, she said no, she wasn't going to be more boisterous. She's been replaced in quotes by Laura Dern, but Laura Dern is playing a character that White is still developing who will fill a similar place within the ensemble. So a different character, but filling a similar role. It's quite confusing, isn't it? But there you go. it's just incredibly exciting that it's being filmed as we speak and why the hell aren't I being sent on a set visit by Empire I really don't know

1:13:54Steve Coogan:James I've got some news for you okay have you have you heard about Warhammer 40k

1:14:00Pilot TV Team:I'm familiar yes

1:14:01Steve Coogan:okay so there's a headline here which says that it's going to make the expanse and foundation look small how do you feel about that I mean

1:14:10Pilot TV Team:I don't know that it could make foundation look small in but to be fair but I do get like the Warhammer 40 ,000 mythology is vast and sweeping

1:14:19Steve Coogan:is it?

1:14:20Pilot TV Team:yes

1:14:20Steve Coogan:can you give me the crux of it?

1:14:22Pilot TV Team:in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war that is the Warhammer ethos well it's all like primarchs and chaos and eternal emperor and all sorts of stuff going on it's quite bleak I'm quite excited about this so Henry Cavill when he left the Witcher to go and do Superman that didn't work out he sort of fell into the job as to all events and purposes apparently creative director of all things Warhammer although nothing has yet come out and so I'm fascinated to know how he fits into this whole Warhammer reverse and what shows, films, things that we get out of it I have a real I'm not really into the figures or the games so much although I was when I was a teenager no surprises there but I love the livery of it all with the space marines and the elder I think it just looks really cool so I'm pretty up for anything they do Warhammer wise 40 ,000 anyway yes okay

1:15:12Steve Coogan:that's exciting yes I'm excited I was scared you were going to go crazy then. Oh, did you see the American hostage, the picture of Jon Hamm as the reprises podcast role in The Night Agent? No. Oh, yes, look. Do you want me to show you the picture? As Fred Heckman. Look at him. There you go.

1:15:32Pilot TV Team:Oh, yeah. It's good, isn't it? Give me some context for this picture. Okay, here we go.

1:15:36Steve Coogan:So, he is a beloved radio reporter who interviews a hostage taker in the 1970s. Oh, nice. based on the first season of the scripted American Hostage podcast the series dramatizes a real world incident in 1977 oh my god it's going to be amazing which returns Jon Hamm to a role he previously performed for the scripted podcast of the same name this time in live action that is so exciting

1:15:57Pilot TV Team:I have never listened to American Hostage you'll be shocked to hear

1:16:00Steve Coogan:no I'm not shocked okay it's going to be good and he looks that's a great picture

1:16:04Pilot TV Team:well Steph's very excited about that new story I am I love Jon Hamm there was a funny story about this is my you know I like to do a great headline

1:16:12Steve Coogan:Oh yeah, let's watch your headline of the week.

1:16:15Pilot TV Team:Headline of the week is David Letterman slams CBS as lying weasels for cancelling the late show with Stephen Colbert due to financial decision.

1:16:25Steve Coogan:Yeah, did you see that Barack Obama said to him you should just run for president now because everybody loves Stephen Colbert. And listeners to Pilot Plus will know that I did some of the Colbert questions on our beloved James, didn't I?

1:16:37Pilot TV Team:Oh yeah, you did, that's true. You fiendishly pounced on me with Stephen Colbert questions.

1:16:41Steve Coogan:You did very well.

1:16:42Pilot TV Team:Stephen Colbert, of course, being the voice of the sort of like computer thing. Actually, no, I don't think it's the computer. It's the voice of the student announcer in Starfleet Academy. Is that Stephen Colbert? He's a massive trekkie. Yeah, whenever an announcement goes out of the tannoy saying that someone's pet is running out, that's Stephen Colbert. And Brit Marling does the voice of the computer. Oh, my God. Talking Brit Marling, when's the next thing going to be announced? Who knows? I don't have an inside track. But I do think that is the end of news. so let's move on to the great big reviews jamboree so let me tell you how this works so we put in requests for the three shows we were going to cover this week Boydie of course got them all Steph and I did not so we had a last minute scramble to try and work out what was going to happen so essentially and then of course a random episode of The Bear dropped as we recorded last night so we were like well throw that into the mix as well so what we're going to do is I'm just going to pick a person and you're just going to pick a show that you've seen and you're going to review it.

1:17:42Pilot TV Team:Because at this stage, it's unclear to me who has seen what, but I know everyone hasn't seen everything. The only show I know all three of us have definitely seen is Believe Me on ITV.

1:17:53Steve Coogan:Yes. Now, so why don't we begin there?

1:17:56Pilot TV Team:Because that's one that we've all seen. Okay. Okay? So this is from the mind of Jeff Pope, and it's a four-part dramatization of the hunt for the black cab rapist, who I'm in two minds as to whether or not I actually want to name. But suffice it to say, he's in prison where he deserves to be. And I did not particularly want to watch this because I thought I would find it very upsetting. However, it is, and to be fair to Kay, she said on the WhatsApp group, she said that this was the case, it is, as I think they should be, a very victim-centric story and it is less about the black cab rapist himself and more about the police failings in actually joining the dots together, believing the women.

1:18:35Pilot TV Team:And there were, I mean, it's thought to be about potentially as many as 100 women were attacked. about this person. 500, they think. 500, Jesus. They think there's potentially 500. Because it's over 10 years, isn't it? Horrific story, and I remember it at the time, and also the debacle where he was nearly released from prison on parole, but that's a whole other thing. This is very much your arena, Steph, so I want to get your take on Believe Me, which I believe you've seen every single episode of.

1:18:57Steve Coogan:I watched every... So four-parter, every episode's about 50, 54 minutes. It's, yeah, this is incredible. And what is great about this, should we not mention his name? I don't think we need to.

1:19:10Pilot TV Team:I don't think we need to. The show is not about him. But the thing that I kind of almost, the question I had in my mind that I wanted to ask you going into this before I watched it, was how is it okay to, in my head, not so much glamorise, but to give the notoriety to these people who do these terrible things by making TV shows about them. And I was very gratified to feel after watching this that that is not what this show set out to do and not what it did.

1:19:36Steve Coogan:They've done this incredibly well. Okay, so the irony of us not mentioning his name is the person, the black cub rapist himself actually has changed his name. It doesn't even refer to himself. And there is a scene in there where that's addressed. So what this centers on is this centers on three women, two mainly really, who eventually bring a case against the Metropolitan Police. they are attacked and when they initially report the crime, the police mishandle it so gratuitously and they are left with the lasting scars and it's really a story about their kind of endurance and how they get to a point where their immense bravery and how being so courageous to get to a point where it's revealed to them a lot of the failings that they weren't even aware of and they actually bring a case, which this isn't a spoiler, which they do win against the Metropolitan Police.

1:20:39Steve Coogan:When I watched the first one, I thought, oh God, James is never going to get through this. But what they don't do, which I think is what you're alluding to, is they don't actually, in terms of the amount of screen time Daniel May's character gets, who plays the Black Carrier, it's actually minimal. It's really minimal. And some things are, even when there's an attack scene, um you don't really see him very very much and you're sort of given um the scenes with the women's faces and and actually yeah i'd love to know how many minutes because it's really not very much at all which i think has been done really incredibly well um this case is cut he's he's actually up for a pro there's been a big in there's been a big thing because he's actually up for a parole hearing in june of this year and so i was looking into this anyway and he was gonna there was gonna be a public hearing and some of the victims have lobbied against there being a public hearing and now he's going to have this parole hearing in private and a lot of this is about his rights and their rights and how these women, it's so painful to watch and it's so painful to watch these victims go through the process of not only having had this terrible experience, how they are dealt with afterwards is is harrowing and it is really difficult to watch and you're just thinking how you you feel really immersed in the in in their mind and how they can't they're not believed and it's it's torturous it's absolutely torturous to watch but the two the two actresses are incredible sorry let me just say their names so as i a shark who plays leila and amy fion edwards who plays Sarah and these are not these women's real names and what it does really well is the impact on their lives afterwards and what they have to go through because Amy Fionn-Edward's character she was the first in the first episode they focused mostly on her it ruins their lives and continues to do so in many ways and it makes you stop it makes you stop and think and in the final episode they give some statistics and the statistics are absolutely shocking.

1:22:50Steve Coogan:I don't want to ruin it because it's a great watch. It's a great four-parter to watch. But it's scary. It's scary how so many women, the violence against women, particularly in this country, is, I mean, not particularly in this country, globally, the violence against women is, the statistics are shocking. And this really hammers home how I think we can all agree violence against women is shockingly wrong and awful.

1:23:17Pilot TV Team:What is the statistic? I know the show ends with it, but actually I don't think it's a spoiler to say what the crime statistic is.

1:23:22Steve Coogan:Okay, so the statistic is that only 3%, 3 % of all women who experience a sexual assault in this country, only 3 % end up in criminal convictions. Isn't that shocking? It's horrifying. It's absolutely horrifying. They deal with, I mean, it really is the focus on the police mishandling and how fucking terrible it is. And you feel very, very much in it. But it's not even that. It's also the people around these two victims, their families, their situations. They don't tell their families and their partners. And their partners are also kind of second-guessing and saying, oh, maybe, is this true? And how isolating that can feel.

1:24:06Steve Coogan:And there's a point in it where they're talking about the standards of the Met Police and how actually all victims, it should, you know, So the first point is that from a standpoint of being believed and how that's their guideline and that doesn't happen and how actually they have to achieve certain rates and stuff like that. And it's just, oh, you feel so, it's like all of this stuff that's mired in bureaucracy that it absolutely shouldn't be. And these two women, they rise above it and they are ultimately successful in suing. And I mean, for a pittance really compared to what has happened, what ends up happening to them.

1:24:43Steve Coogan:but this is really, really well done and I would congratulate them on how thoughtfully done it is and how it doesn't glamorise him and I think it's absolute masterstroke. The amount of time that he gets on camera and Daniel Mays is very scared. He is, he's really frightening and it's almost his lack of appearance that actually makes him even more frightening in this. But yeah, absolutely brilliant and Kay was totally right. This is fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Boyd I feel like you're going to say something well

1:25:18Pilot TV Team:I was just going to say Jeff Pope who you mentioned who wrote this who is the master of the real life true crime drama he is just so you can just rely on him to do the right thing when it comes to issues of representing rapists and murderers who are the subject

1:25:40Steve Coogan:and what I love about him sorry just to interrupt you is he's given so many interviews about this. And in the interviews, he is hammering home the violence against women. That is what he is talking about. Absolutely, of course.

1:25:52Pilot TV Team:Well, he's hammering that home, but it really is the aftermath that is almost more shocking. So when, in the first episode, the aim of the unable to, by the way, is just sensational, right? You know, could not be more different to her Slow Horse's character. She's so incredible in this. She's just like a, you know, normal everyday mother, goes out with her mates, goes out with her gay mates, have a big night out. They end up kind of, not forcing her, but they're very, very strongly encouraging her to do some coke, you know, which is absolutely realistic. You know, it could be gay out clubbing, and that ends up being a thing that is used against her in a really kind of...

1:26:33Steve Coogan:The judgment in this is awful. The judge, yeah, by the police, by the police.

1:26:36Pilot TV Team:But the fascinating thing about it is that I sat there watching and I thought... the treatment she gets from the police, and almost every single person she has to deal with in terms of the medical people inspecting her and the police inspecting her. Including the female police officer. Including the female, exactly. And then the kind of one of the policemen whose job it is to help facilitate rape victims with what they have to go through is unbelievably unhelpful and judgmental as well. And you watch this enraging kind of behaviour, and you think, surely this is exaggerated. yes you know I literally sat there thinking just in the way that almost just in you call it bedside manner you know like just be a bit more friendly and nice and decent just because apparently she had coke you know doesn't mean that's true but then I went to read what Jeff Pope is saying about because he does absolutely meticulous research and you have to be really careful obviously names have changed and etc etc but I know how careful he is and you have to be really careful in British TV drama generally in all kinds of ways when you portray real people or things that have happened to real people and you know honestly yes this is the treatment she got these characters got from from from the police and it's so enraging and and outrageous but it's true this is what she went through and this is how they were and i think i'd hope that now you know how long ago is this

1:28:04Steve Coogan:I mean, her character was assorted in 2003. Right.

1:28:10Pilot TV Team:So hopefully 20 years later, it's not as bad, but who knows, gone.

1:28:16Steve Coogan:You'd say that. Okay. So they successfully sued. There's two women successfully sued. They won their case. They sued on the basis of human rights. Okay. But the Metropolitan Police appealed that decision all the way to the Supreme Court. they appealed that I mean the failings are astounding

1:28:37Pilot TV Team:it's almost more like so for me what I was going to say was because of that element to it the miscarriage of justice element to it and the search for what's the word justice for these women it's really more like the people the post office series in a way you know it's a real that's why I think going all the way back to why this has to be watched and it isn't the kind of show you may think is that James wouldn't be able to watch because it's about sexual assault and you can't watch it. No, it's not like that. It's about miscarriages of justice and the infuriating. It's more like the post office drama.

1:29:09Pilot TV Team:And institutional prejudice. And how brilliant for ITV, you know, we often, you know, people like James get judgy about ITV. But this is also... No, it's a masterstroke. Because it not only tells the story in a very, very lean, you know, there's no fat on it. Even when it's establishing her character, you meet her ex and how she is with her kid. All of that very, very clever a kind of naturalism about how she is just living her life before we then see what happens to her in episode one. But just in terms of the way it's shot and the whole the way it's directed and everything, it's just meticulous.

1:29:45Pilot TV Team:And I think that ITV has to be commended for doing an absolutely brilliant job. And one more thing, the reason they show what he, what's it called, his modus operandi is so that you have to understand when they're telling their stories of what he's done, why they in some cases have limited knowledge because they don't remember exactly how they knew what happened to them despite being drugged and incapacitated and all of that. So you have to show what he did, not fully, but in terms of the circumstances on it, to understand why they then got almost willfully misunderstood or not listened to by the police.

1:30:27Pilot TV Team:It needs to be there. Whatever they show of him doing what needs to be there, basically, is what I'm trying to say. It's like a cat-canned away. Do you know what I mean? You couldn't even say, well, they show it, just because you have to underline how... No, no, no, that's not why they're doing it. They're doing it so you understand the narrative of each woman who went through what they went through and what they then face questioning by the police and why the police didn't really understand what they were talking about in certain cases or didn't profess to. Sorry, rambling now. But also, one of the reasons why we don't see a lot of Danny Mays is because by definition their memories are hazy and it's a victim-focused point of view.

1:31:01Pilot TV Team:So they genuinely don't remember much about him, what he looks like, what he did because they were drugged, which I think is really, really effective. Amy Fionn Edwards is fantastic. Oh, she's so good. But there are moments in this which almost bring you to an incandescent fury because of the unfairness of it all. There's a sequence where, and I remember reading about this at the time, where Amy Fionn Edwards' character is told before she goes in to give her account on video, she has to give her account at the instance, she's told, they said, don't be emotional. Try and be, just give them the facts.

1:31:33Pilot TV Team:They're not interested in your tears. Just give them the facts. So she gives them a very almost mechanical, methodical, logical, just the facts kind of account of what happened. And then of course they're like, well, you didn't show any emotion. You clearly weren't upset. It doesn't seem believable to me. And she's like, what the fuck?

1:31:46Steve Coogan:Yeah, and she kind of says, I was told facts, not feelings. And then it's used against them. And they were lied to countless times. and, you know, it is really interesting if you are in any way interested in that side of investigation to see because lots of people won't realise that you can report something and then it can potentially not be, you know, not be considered a crime and then what happens there again? I don't want to give away everything that happens because it's, you know, it is a must-watch. You should watch it.

1:32:16Pilot TV Team:But also deeply horrifying.

1:32:18Steve Coogan:It is, but you know what? You should be confronted with it because this is happening all the time in this country and it is a massive issue that needs to be resolved. Violence against women in this country and globally is a huge, huge problem and it is not slowing down in any way, shape or form.

1:32:36Pilot TV Team:Agreed. Believe me then, which is available on ITV now? Yeah, so it started yesterday if you're listening to this on Monday. It's on Sundays and Mondays for the next two weeks. So I think it's all on ITVX already. Okay. Right. Now, Boydie, Would you like to dig into the tombola? I'm going to pull out the next show. The next show is Rivals, which returns for its second season. This is, of course, the adaptation of Jilly Cooper's famous bonkbuster book. Now, I have not seen this because they did not give it to me.

1:33:06Steve Coogan:I have not seen this, James.

1:33:08Pilot TV Team:You have not seen it. So only Boyd, the privileged Boyd, has seen Rivals season two. Tell us, Boydy. I was lucky enough to, not only did I receive the screeners, listeners, which I know you'd like to know the details of the dissemination of these things. But I also went to an actual launch of it, and I watched the first two episodes in the company of Kay Ribeiro, an honourable member of this parish. And I sat in front of Rufus Jones, who is a friend of the pod, who listens religiously. And he, of course, is the ridiculous Tory MP in the show. And he's absolutely brilliant in it, I can report. And episode two in particular is, I think, including season one, his best episode so far because he's quite centric, he's quite central to what happens in episode two and it's absolutely hilarious and he was sitting right behind me and let's just say that he likes to do a nude scene.

1:34:00Pilot TV Team:We know that from going all the way back. With or without a yucca plant. Exactly, with or without a yucca plant in his show Home. Home, thank you. And so I was sitting right in front of it and he was just like and there he is up there, huge screen, unmistakable nudity and he said to me I nearly whispered in your ear. hello boy but it was it was hilarious what a joy this show is like so the contrast could not be greater with the last show we reviewed

1:34:30Steve Coogan:believe me

1:34:31Pilot TV Team:believe me thank you because but that's really important vital doing important vital work that's like almost like a piece of action it's almost like it kind of drives you into wanting to do something it does this is pure joyous entertainment it's not trying to make any profound point about anything I don't think it's trying to capture the joy

1:34:52Steve Coogan:it's a bit silly isn't it

1:34:53Pilot TV Team:it's silly it's giddy it's over the top when it needs to be it's and yeah it's also kind of poignant and sweet particularly you know the Danny Dyer Catherine Parkinson relationship which is you know which is what the highlight I would say probably of series one to give those to give Danny Dyer this romantic lovely role for him when you know the cliche is that he plays you know kind of going back decades to gangsters and for what hooligans, etc. That absolutely fantastic partnership is back in a kind of will-they-won't-they carry on their affair because they're both still married to other people.

1:35:30Pilot TV Team:Then you've got the kind of slightly over-the-top and not too much performances, which I think is perfectly pitched. Remember, in recent reviews of various shows, I've found too much shouting often. Just acting, which is in the we're trying to be funny kind of mode of acting. whereas in this you get David Tennant who is the villain of the piece he is the evil kind of monster at the heart of the whole show who at the end of season one do we assume that people might want to catch up with season one and not say anything about what happens at the end of season one I would assume that I for example have not seen the end of season one so a thing happens at the end of season one involving David Tennant and you're like oh what's going to happen and then he arrives back in season two and he's so even more evil and over the top than he was in season one for reasons and you somehow buy into it.

1:36:19Pilot TV Team:It's like such a brilliantly modulated performance. You know, I was talking about the badly modulated performances, some of which we've seen recently for me, anyway. But the skill of the, I think the director has skill of credit. He is an actor, has a lot of credit. They're all perfectly pitched. So he is a bit of an over-the-top dynasty, Dallas kind of character, but it still somehow makes it believable. It's extraordinary. Because there are people out there who like being a bastard, basically, and he's one of those. So he almost self-celebrates his Boston-ness throughout the whole thing. Aidan Turner, who I've loved back in the Poldock days, I did a brilliant visit to Poldock one time in the Leipzig, and he's such a lovely guy.

1:37:00Pilot TV Team:And it's brilliant that he has gone completely like, does not give a shit. His sex scenes in this show, nothing is left to the imagination, honestly. And it's hilarious. I love the fact that he's completely submitted himself to like, yep, I'm doing all these sex scenes completely naked now, and it's all fine, it's all great. Brilliant. I just think it's such a perfectly judged piece of TV. I haven't read the Jaleed Cooper books, but Kay talks about how they get the tone of them so perfectly. And she was, of course, no longer with us, but she was heavily involved. She would visit the cell all the time.

1:37:33Pilot TV Team:She had all the scripts. She okayed all the scripts. And she was absolutely thrilled that these people had got together to create something that was so true to the tone as much as anything else of her books. and I love the fact that, I've definitely said this for season one, I love the fact that this whole massive phenomenon, it's become a pop culture phenomenon in the show, right? It's not just, you know, for Disney +, it's a huge thing. And it's all about the intricacies of the arcane ITV network system in which to get your channel, to get your franchise, your version of ITV programming onto ITV involved the most bizarre hoops that you have to jump through.

1:38:12Pilot TV Team:And it's such a weird system that doesn't exist anymore, thankfully. ITV is now just one big thing, and it creates its own regional programme. Back in the day, it was so confusing. Because I've worked in TV listings all my adult life, pretty much. My first show when I left university. You'd have to do regional variations all over the place when you have ITV schedules. It was insane. But this show touches upon all of that. And it's like, it doesn't matter. People understand. It's fine. and sure enough they're still battling still battling now in this second season to get the franchise to have the right to show your programs on ITV and it's just fantastic so I love it I think the cast is brilliant every single character is perfectly cast I could bang on about it forever but if you liked season one and if you didn't what's wrong with you more of the same it's brilliant and it's even more bold and daring there's a brilliant bit in episode two where there's a one shot that's like about a ten minute one-er and it's and it's like a farcical situation.

1:39:13Pilot TV Team:So it's like a farce in the middle of the whole thing with Rufus Jones central to the whole thing as well. And it's all filmed in one shot and it's brilliant. It's so exciting. So they're kind of using their own success to push it further and do even more wild, wacky stuff. The use of 80s music is brilliant and the montage is great. It's just fantastic. Okay. Okay, Rivals Season 2. Disney Plus? Friday the 15th of May. I think they're showing three episodes, making three episodes available then. then some more single episodes and then there's going to be a break and then it comes back in the summer, I believe.

1:39:46Pilot TV Team:I think it's like a World Cup break.

1:39:48Steve Coogan:Oh, World Cup.

1:39:49Pilot TV Team:Yeah, it comes back after the World Cup in July.

1:39:51Steve Coogan:And I'll be spending a lot of time with Gary, therefore.

1:39:53Pilot TV Team:Right, okay, we are rapidly running out of time before we're thrown out of the studio, so let's talk about Gary.

1:39:58Steve Coogan:Oh, wow. Okay, so, yes, I sent a message on the WhatsApp to say, oh my God, have you just seen that Bear have dropped this spoiler, not spoiler, this special episode last night, which I was so excited about because I love the Bear. James, you love the Bear? Do you love the bear? Okay, so, my God. Okay, it's an hour-long episode, and it is John Bernthal and Eben Mosbacherak.

1:40:21Pilot TV Team:Written by them.

1:40:22Steve Coogan:Was it written by them?

1:40:23Pilot TV Team:Written by them, yes, directed by Christopher Storer. Unreal.

1:40:26Steve Coogan:It's unreal. So it focuses on just a trip that they're going to Gary in Indiana. Yeah, where Michael Jackson's from.

1:40:34Pilot TV Team:And Close Encounters of the Third Time features Gary in Indiana heavily. Oh, does it? Okay.

1:40:38Steve Coogan:so it's a car journey and it's what happens it feels mostly real time doesn't it so they're going to and it all starts off Tiff's pregnant Richie gets in the car Mikey's in a mood and therein starts this incredible insight into the relationship between these two characters so it's a flashback it's a prequel and what's really struck me and I don't know whether you were going to have thought of this as well is Half Man. We watched Half Man okay, for last pod I think, didn't we? Was it last pod? And this is another this couldn't really be more different but it's another exploration of the love story of friendship between two men and I absolutely loved it.

1:41:35Steve Coogan:Now we don't want to give away the spoiler because what happens in the last 30 seconds of this is shocking.

1:41:40Pilot TV Team:Which was set up season five.

1:41:42Steve Coogan:Which was set up season five because it is, yeah, we won't talk about that. Okay, so yeah, there's some great scenes. There's a scene where they join some kids on a basketball court and a lot of the action takes place in a bar. And Maren Ireland, who you remember, who played the sister in His and Hers, she plays a character called Sherry who connects with Mikey's character. that whole, you know, that whole scene where they're in the toilet together is remarkable where he's revealing, obviously, you know, drug-induced revelations and it all kind of leads up to this point. Yeah. Right, it leads up to this point.

1:42:23Steve Coogan:Sorry. Hurry the fuck up. Okay, sorry. Four minutes left.

1:42:26Pilot TV Team:One more show to do.

1:42:26Steve Coogan:Right, yeah. We don't want to give any spoilers away but this is absolutely fantastic and fans of the bear will just lap the whole thing up. It's absolutely beautiful. I loved every second of it.

1:42:36Pilot TV Team:Do you know what? It's a fascinating look at both Mikey as a character, who we've seen actually more than you'd imagine in The Bear, given that he's dead, but understanding his addiction where he is before his death, but also Richie, because Richie, I think, has had the most pronounced character arc on that show. Richie's the best character. So what we're seeing here is not just the Richie who we saw at the beginning of the show. It's almost before that because he goes, after Mikey's death, he kind of has a complete breakdown. So we're actually seeing him prior to that. so it's like it's Richie before his art but also before his fall as well so it's a really interesting look of Richie as well and their dynamic is fantastic there is one particular scene in this which is really hard to watch which the bear does very well which is rouse arguments between people are hard to watch in the bear and there's one in this which is an absolute doozy but yeah this was a delightful surprise I think can we have more gorilla episodes on streaming please when did they decide do we know when they decided to do this we don't know I read that it had been shot in secret while they were doing production on season 4 I don't know if that's true clever I love that but yeah it's and they just dropped it out of nowhere It made me think of the mysterious final episode of Stranger Things that everyone talks about.

1:43:37Pilot TV Team:It didn't exist, it wasn't a real thing. This one exists. But people said there was a secret final episode of Stranger Things. There wasn't. But I love that there was this episode of The Bear, which has been wonderful.

1:43:46Steve Coogan:Yeah, we loved it.

1:43:47Pilot TV Team:Yeah.

1:43:47Steve Coogan:Okay, Boyd.

1:43:48Pilot TV Team:Off Campus. Off Campus, which is the final show. You have two minutes. Okay, all I'd say is, it's mad that this show has arrived at the same era as Heated Rivalry. So Heated Rivalry was the big, sexy, gay, ice hockey story. this is a big straight sexy high stocky story but it's weirdly similar like down to the way it's shot the tone of it the level of nudity there's ramp you're gonna love this there's rampant butt shots right from the very first minute it's and it carries on like that boobage oh my very equal opportunities as opposed to you know you're talking about the male gaze which is still very much the case with it this is equal opportunities gazing um there's boobs there's butts, there's rampant sex action.

1:44:30Pilot TV Team:So it's kind of like, all you need to know with the context of it is this is effectively an ice hockey-based teen, but teen ice hockey, rather than college ice hockey, rather than professional, you know, actually winning World Cup-sized hockey of heated rivalry. But it is really similar. I literally, to the point where I was like, were these commissioned at the same time? Did somehow, because this must have been commissioned, the creators of this show couldn't have known that heated rivalry will become the hit it is. But there's so many similarities. Who's in it? they're just a bunch of like random handsome and beautiful people young people who i've never heard of before they're not it's not start there are no well okay i'll tell you ella bright um and it's basically like this brainy music loving woman meets a kind of singer songwriter dude who's all like you know kind of like um charismatic and in between them is this ice hockey um kind of hunk who's somehow wants to thinks that he wants to get her to get it on with the rock star but really of Of course, he's attracted to it because he's got a deep, soulful vibe that he's not used to because he has one-night stands with bimbos.

1:45:29Pilot TV Team:That's the kind of set-up. But it's really fun. Honestly, I enjoyed it much more than I expected to because there's been some previous attempts at doing teen dramas on Prime Video and they have not succeeded. This is the best one by far they've done for me. You had me at Butt. But yeah, I did have you at Butt, yeah. So yeah, I thought it was fun and kind of really well done. Not as good as Heater Rivalry, but nearly. If you like Heater Rivalry, in general, the whole vibe of it. Sexy hockey. Hockey, nudity, sex. It's all there. Puck buddies. And it's on Prime Video. Oh, very good. Not my joke, sadly.

1:46:01Pilot TV Team:I stole that one. It's very good. It's on Prime Video on Wednesday the 13th of May. Oh, great. Fantastic. That is it. So, right, what else is out this week? Let's examine the calendar very, very briefly. Dutton Ranch, which is the latest Yellowstone spin-off. That arrives on Paramount Plus on the 15th, which is Friday. What else is there? Smoggy Queens. Smoggy Queens was good. Yes. Is that back? That's the new season of Smoggy Queens. Right, okay. It's a good show. BBC Three, you know, the gang of like gay and trans people, you know, literally form like a gang and it's funny. It's really funny.

1:46:36Pilot TV Team:It's really well done. Wednesday, The Punisher, One Last Kill, which is The Punisher, One Shot. Speaking of John Berthold. John Berthold, I was about to say. He's in that. Well, I haven't seen that yet, but I'm very excited about it. Good Omens, third and final season. Also on Wednesday on Prime Video. The Hard Acres is Channel 5's kind of period drama. I think there's one back on Thursday. I think that was quite a big hit. That was the one where I doubted the veracity of the facial hair. I felt like, really, would they have that much facial hair in the period whenever it's set, whenever the hell that was?

1:47:07Pilot TV Team:But apart from that, it was fine. And I'm just thumbing through my magazine. Classic Russell. Let's assume there's nothing else if we're just reading heat at this point. Yeah, that's true.

1:47:16Steve Coogan:Can we do Pick of the Week? Pick of the Week. It's obviously, believe me, because it's a must-watch

1:47:20Pilot TV Team:and it's wonderful it kind of is but Rivals is the return of Rivals I mean it has to be celebrated

1:47:24Steve Coogan:okay it's Believe Me

1:47:25Pilot TV Team:we're saying Believe Me I think so thank you James back it's Rivals right fantastic we hope you enjoyed that slightly rushed ending to this week's podcast we'll be back next week when we'll be watching one or more of Falling on Channel 4 Jack Ryan it's actually technically a film the new Jack Ryan that is confusing yeah it's a feature length one off episode exactly so is it a one off TV dramatic event who knows let's have this debate again let's do that again I know the listeners love it when we talk about that. Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed comes to Apple as well. The Burrows comes to Netflix. And Ponies finally arrives on Sky Atlantic, having debuted in the US some time ago.

1:48:00Pilot TV Team:So, one or all of those. Who knows? Fantastic. I am off home to see what manner of wildlife turns up at my house this week, unannounced, unbidden and unwanted.

1:48:11Steve Coogan:There'll be a whale in your bathroom.

1:48:14Pilot TV Team:There may be a whale in my bathroom. What a sentence to end on. Pilot out. intimacy