Slow Horses Season 5 spoiler discussion

0:07Welcome back to Pilot Plus and our recently just teased two seconds ago spoiler special for Slow Horses, we are going to get into all things Season 5. This is a spoiler chat. Obviously, if you've not seen Slow Horses Season 5, what are you doing listening to this? We're going to ruin it. Go away. But we're not going to. But I want to start with a controversial thing, and that's the Empire Review of Slow Horses Season 5, which Nick DeSamelian, fool that he is, gave it three stars. Does he know that you're constantly slagging him off for his reviews? I don't believe in this podcast, so no. I mean, that says it all, to be honest.

0:38To be fair, also, I did actually say it to his face when he said, I said, why are you being wrong about slow horses. But, it feels that the received wisdom is that this hasn't been as good a season. So if you look at how it's been received, a lot of people say, oh, this hasn't been a good one, I've not really enjoyed the slow horses. And yet, some of the reviews, if you go on like Metagritic, are saying, this is the best slow horses yet. So it seems to have polarised people. So the question I have for both of you is, why do you think that is? I, do you know why? Because, I know for a fact that you and I, James, watched these episodes about 100 years ago.

1:07So long ago. Or in my case, 101 years. Which is, this is well on that exactly you're ridiculous indeed but so I went back and I watched the finale the other night knowing that we were doing this spoiler chat and I did think to myself do you know what I can't remember vast swathes of this series and I am as I joke but there is some truth to it that I'm borderline you know don't say it issues with my memory you're a little bit forgetful thanks recollectively challenged yeah I mean by the way you obviously So, you know, as clinicians, you'll let me know when it actually gets… Oh, I'll just put you out to pasture.

1:44You'll literally wheel me out the door. And you won't even remember it, so it'll be fine. Jump in my seat, probably. Anyway. Yes, better angle. Oh, yeah, I was talking about the angle. Anyway, so, yeah, so, in a way, even though I… If you just said to me, you know, where does this season rank in… It wouldn't be top, but it wouldn't be bottom either. It would be kind of middle. Mid-tier slow horses, which is still pretty high. Right. So the issue with the Empire Review, if you like, is middling slow horses, stranger horses, slow things, is still better than everything else on TV, pretty much, apart from maybe one or two things.

2:20What, Even All's Fair? Even All's Fair, even All's Fair, yeah. But yeah, I couldn't remember, I did have forgotten about that fast-paced, I think the one where they went to France and all of that, which is what the previous season, right? I think that was more memorable. Well, it is, yeah. In terms of... But it's River's father, Hugo, Weaving. There's a whole lot going on. There's high emotional stakes in that. Yes, exactly. And it's very character-led. This is that slightly nebulous destabilisation plot by kind of Libyans who seem to be quite upset with the role that Britain played in the fall of Gaddafi.

2:51Like that seems to be... Also, it felt like there was less action. Like slow horses were taking less action because they're always on the back foot, right? Yeah. And because Lamb was so even more so, I think, this time, like, just don't do anything. You know, like he was even more laid back. And I know they did take action, but it just didn't seem as high octane as previous series. So I agree, but middling Slow Horses is still superb television. Yeah. I think my slight criticism of it would be it started off with a really strong, powerful, surprisingly violent... Shocking. Really shocking. Often we talk about the tone.

3:27The Abbotsfield Massacre. Yeah, the tonal shifts that allegedly, you know, the other Mick Herron-based series, I've got more to say about that on Monday show so have I anyway Toner you're like oh my god that was definitely the most shocking opening sequence so far in all of So Horses and that worked and then I think bringing in Nick Muhammad as the mayor was really interesting and we obviously now we love Nick Muhammad who is post Traitors sorry James he was in Celebrity Traitors at the moment he's in Celebrity Traitors he's in the final but I love Nick Muhammad so much and that was a brilliant bit of casting and it kind of reflected a little bit what's going on in the real world with the real mayor of London, if you like.

4:08And then you've got this sort of Faragian populist coming up against him. So there's lots of elements. The more you think about it, the more things I do remember. And I kind of enjoyed the kind of accidental death bit, you know, when they're in that venue. Well, see, that's an interesting, and I think a lot of people didn't like that. And I think I understand why. I think it's twofold. One, it's like, it's proper, like, silly slapstick Rube Goldberg comedy. Like, it's mad. Yeah. But also, the slow horses have a bad rap. But the point of the slow horses, they're unconventional, they're rejects, they're outcasts, but they're all good at what they do.

4:43And this had them being proper keystone cops. It was screaming incompetence. And obviously, that's what Lamb always accuses them of, but that's really what they're guilty of. I think he was playing into Rivers, but his growing frustration, right? Because he's wanted to take charge, he's wanted to do something, yet he keeps on fucking up. Plus, this accidental thing, it just adds to this this anger he has in him so I think I actually enjoyed that I liked it for the humor and also I liked the fact that it just fucking wound him up so much and that Coe River like butting off heads gave me a lot of enjoyment I love Coe yeah but I this is what I was going to say that is the most down cemetery road bit of this because it is funny it's just comedy it's comedy and it is a bit slapstick and I fully embraced it you see I thought that was for me that's like one of my favorite bits of this series, funny enough, was that whole sequence.

5:35And I thought it was kind of tense and funny and that's what I love about the show. And you are right. I'll tell you, we'll get into it when we talk about in the other part. But I do think that Slow Horses is brilliantly adept at being funny and yet thrilling and very... It walks that tonal line extremely skillfully. Absolutely. But I include that sequence which I clearly... Yeah, but I had no problem with it. I can understand I might be with it but like Slow Horses has such a grip on me at this point I think it would take quite a lot to shake me off on the plus side but then what I loved about this series was I think that it had so many brilliant character tete-a-tetes like putting Roddy at the centre of things at the beginning I love Roddy so like Roddy genius with his bleach blonde hair and top knot yeah Roddy and Tavener for example I have many Noms de Guerre Dragon Slayer the human tripod it was amazing Exactly.

6:32That Cavendish episode three. Brilliant. That Cavendish episode three and Tavener versus Roddy. Tavener just not being able to conceive of his level of stupidity. And in a way kind of not... Or was it Tavener? I was calling her Cavendish. Is it Cavendish? Just Tavener. Sorry, Tavener. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First desk. Now first desk. Was second desk. Was second desk. Back to being first desk. Anyway, the way she dealt with him was so funny. And again, very brilliantly played. Because she actually kind of... didn't give him as short shrift as you might expect and kind of in a way worked out his value within what she was, you know, within the situation she had to deal with.

7:08But I thought that coming together was brilliant. And then you really want the bits where Lamb is dealing with Whelan, the first desk, and the Lamb-Whelan coming together in the finale is genius. And for me, the brilliant thing about Slow Horses is that, and this is like only in-depth, only kind of long-running, returning, peak TV drama series can do this. You care so much about the characters. They're so infused in you when you start watching them and they've been on for one... In the case of First Desk, Whelan, he's been in it for a couple of seasons, but he's made such an impact. It's such a brilliant performance.

7:51He's such a fucking idiot. James Callis is fantastic. He's so brilliant. And of course, as is you know Gary Oldman when they come together which is rare it's dynamite and I thought that whole scene when he goes check mate check mate and just the timing of Gary Oldman pressing play on the recording is just also I love it because it fit in with his character right it was so sort of like laid back in its delivery and lazy all he had to do was press one button as he walked off and he came back but also the killer thing of like the only demand one of his only demands is Ho coming back because Ho's the only one who can handle my delivery.

8:27Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking brilliant. And the scene before that, by the way, when Lamb is in the cafe, because he doesn't want to go back, and he's genius as well. And he says the line, they say it's the hope that kills you, but it's knowing it's the hope that kills you, that kills you. Yeah. I mean, it's just fantastic. So in the end, so basically, a very long story short, shorter, I started off thinking, oh, this wasn't one of the most memorable seasons. But by the end of it, I was like, this has actually got more brilliant scenes, maybe, than previous series. But it's a lot of fun. And also we get to see Roddy's home life, and Roddy is just comedy gold.

9:06Like Christopher Chung is so good in this. The sword. The sword, the fucking manga sword. Oh my God, and also Jackson Lamb coming to his rescue. With bleach. With bleach. Ironically, the closest he's ever come to a cleaning product. It's just like... Now, I have a question for you. Tell me. Both. When I first watched it, all those years ago, you know that last shot remember what the last shot is of this season yes I do yes what is it it's the feet it's his feet oh yes he takes it right do you know what that is all about yeah of course because I didn't get that really no I didn't oh see I got that straight away because trench foot no no no it refers to it's the story that he tells it's the story he tells two episodes previously that's a lot to remember so the thing the thing that I love about Lamb and I think Will Smith has talked about this is he is a character without an arc because he's a character who when we meet him is at the end of his character arc so what we're looking for from Lamb is a man to essentially reveal what his arc was and to give us glimpses of the man he used to be so we understand how he got there and this is a close like he tells that story about being tortured having blow torches applied to this two episodes previously his pregnant girlfriend being beaten to death in front of him I presume that was him when it happened but I totally forgot well he says standish oh I made it up that's not true and then obviously at the end when you see his feet you realise oh that actually is you yeah I did not I think you're not binging it all in one night and watching it so you have that fresh in your mind because when he was telling that I even did have it fresh in my mind I still didn't care yeah okay fine well you know we've discussed well I'm just going to be smug and say that I did yeah of course you did but you know what when he was telling it in the first place in my head I was like oh okay this is him but totally went out of my mind because a billion other things happened in between a lot has happened I think I mean I acknowledge my own stupidity for not realising what it was but the episode is called Scars by the way yes it is so that's a strong but I just thought I just thought he was like his really hideous feet.

10:57Yeah, his hygiene level. And it was a gratuitous, you know, we've seen everything else about him, you know, we've seen all kinds of things, his flatulence, everything else. And in the second viewing that I put two and two together, I was like, oh yeah, the feet, it's the feet, he was tortured. That's right. On his feet, in that story. One of the reasons for this is, they do a lot of foreshadowing in this show, but the foreshadowing is very layered. So like the stuff with the dictaphone, when we first encounter the dictaphone, like when he records that conversation with Whelan, that's going to come back.

11:25But then actually, they use that device because that then records the kind of like, is it most of manslaughter, I guess, of that guy by the two slow horses guys. So you think, oh, actually, now that could be the undoing of River and Co because people listen up, they'll find out that they were involved in his death. So it gives it a different use case. So then you dismiss it as its original use case and then when it comes back, it's like, oh, actually, I didn't see that coming because you'd obfuscated it. And I think the thing with the feet, because he has that conversation with Standish afterwards he's like oh don't be ridiculous and he's just making her seem like an idiot again it kind of dismisses it and it goes out of your mind so it's nice that they came back to it the other fact I have for you is that shot was Gary Oldman's wife's idea which shot?

12:06the final shot of his feet so that wasn't that wasn't the end of the show and basically Gary Oldman's wife had suggested to Will Smith what would be amazing is if we end the season the camera comes down and you see his feet and they're scarred oh wow and so that came from her and he was like oh my god that is a genius idea bravo we're coming up with something that I didn't realise Right, yes, it was the 5K, but it was really good. But they talked about how they were going to do it and just that slow pan when he's on the fence. I have to be honest, I wish they panned it out a bit quicker because I couldn't bear to look at it.

12:33I was like, this is gross. Now, talking of grossness, you know the farting scene with Jackson? I've got to quickly talk about it because it is brilliantly done. I wrote the note down when he just, sorry about that. And then also the key line, think I've hit a seam. It's just like, it's so grotesque. Also hilarious. Is his bum a weapon of mass destruction? Do you remember he has a pee in front of her in that last scene? He says, I'd like to have a following wind. A through wind. It's extremely well written. But this is also an interesting point, isn't it? Because this is Will Smith's last season for this.

13:14And I think it's Gabby. I don't know how to pronounce her surname. I'm so sorry. I think it's Shiappe is doing season six. and Ben Vanstone is running season seven. But apparently, I don't know the ins and outs of it, the reason that Will Smith gave for this was logistics. Because think about, it's been three years and we've had five seasons of Slow Horses. So the rate at which they put these out is prodigious. And I think Will Smith was saying that when they were doing the writer's room for season five, they were editing season three and shooting season four all at the same time. That is a breakdown waiting to happen.

13:48But on the one hand... And people like us complain that we don't get it fast enough. You ingrate. I would like all people who run the shows I like to have this kind of work ethic because it's incredible. We get slow horses every year and it's joyous. And the first year we got two slow horses and it is the gift that kids are giving. Don't be greedy. But I understand that Will Smith might be a little bit burnt out. Well, we're grateful for what we've received. But I think we said this before, the trailer that's at the end of episode five. Yes, it looks so good. Yeah, the new season looks fantastic.

14:16And we should say, so those of you, I'm sure everyone who has now seen the final episode has seen the trailer. It shows a funeral. I'm assuming that's Jonathan Pryce's funeral, as it were. That's my guess. And we will see the return of Hugo Weaving as River Senior. Yes. And there'll be a new... And yeah, front desk is back. The thing is gone, the idiot. Tavern is in. Yes, Claude Weaven's out. Tavern is back in. But you know, is she happy? Because she's always wanted to be official long-term first desk. But once she's got it, will she be happy? I enjoyed her saying to Lam when Lam was basically going, you have to deal with this fucking moron and we were like please don't I don't think I can cope with your pissy I like their dynamic yeah it's fantastic not often in communication but when they are it's dynamite it's dynamite every time I also really want to talk about okay River's journey I think was great this season you know obviously it started with him and Louisa and you know he's so emotionally unintelligent emotionally stupid like the fact that you know she was saying oh I need a break a mental health break for six months and because he makes it all about him he then leans in for a kiss she's like what's like why you know like this and then he goes on this journey and he's growing more and more frustrated he's being a dick to everyone right so he's first of all a dick to shirley like ignoring her warnings of like no roddy was targeted then you know there's the um anger at lamb um but also i loved the sort of as i said the dynamic between him and co and like co just came into his own this season i think because not only was he able to handle River, i.e.

15:47just ignore him, do what he wanted to do, which was ultimately right, but there were so many great moments like when he's eating the cherries. And do you remember this? River is getting so wound up. He's like, stop fucking eating cherries. But he won't play, like what I love about Ko is that he's not playing into River's drama. He won't get involved in his like psycho dramas. But ultimately is right and River just has to deal with it from the fact that when him and Shirley have that amusing scene where they're trying to protect Nick Muhammad's character and then just it's absolute farce and Coe's the one who saves the day to, you know, the paint falling and everything.

16:25So I just enjoyed both River's journey and that dynamic. It's quite, it's an interesting place to leave it because he's like absolutely convinced he's going back to the park. Yeah, he is delusional. And he calls Louisa, like, again, she literally, she made one request which was that you give her some space and you're telling her to talk about yourself. But you said something earlier that I was going to challenge. You said something like they're all good at what they do or something like that, didn't you? I don't think he is. I think you're meant to... Well, this season, definitely not. And he's had his...

16:50Again, his issue is he's arrogant and he always thinks he's right. And so he ends up sometimes fucking up. James, who does that remind us? Sure. Oh my God, and then also, making about him... Oh my God, making about him... Scales are falling from my eyes. It's James. Oh, listeners, if only you'd really... If you only really knew... That's why he thinks he's really good at his job. The whole thing fits together. James Cartwright. Because in fact, in that scene where he's arguing about how to protect the mayor, what to do when, you know, he's grabbed the mayor. He's saying idiotic bullshit. He's full of absolute nonsense.

17:23And quite rightly, he's pulled up on it. I'm so happy. I'm so happy at this penny dropping. I feel like everything I say now is going to be incredibly loaded. But again, he's so in his own head and he's so focused on his own bullshit. Shut up, Kay. I can feel you looking at me. He's completely off the rails. Almost everything he does, apart from saving Whelan at the end, is screaming incompetence. And he only manages to do that because his grandfather makes an offhand comment. I really like that little, almost like announcing there was one more thing to deal with in the story by saying, oh, there's another thing to deal with because of the bees and what they're doing and all of that.

18:00I thought that was really well done. Because it gets you excited about, I think it's really good. I think, for me, the only flaw in this series is that the main motive, the whole Libyan thing, if you like, that's not intrinsically interesting. No. The initial violence is fascinating. All the threats of, you know, we're going to blow up London Zoo and all of that. Should they kill all the penguins? Yeah, we forget, exactly. Those big things happen. But I think the two things, the Libyan kind of fury of the Libyan characters, never quite matched to me what they were doing. And it all felt a bit much.

18:33And I like the fact that it kind of addressed, you know, if this was made 10 years ago, people would have been probably quite angry at the representation of, you know, Middle Eastern, you know, people, if you like. I think it would have been an issue. It's quite basic. Yeah, do you know what I mean? But what they do do, I think what they did take care to do, it was they had a difference of opinions within the group, that core group of four Libyans that were doing this stuff, including the young woman who seduces Roddy, all of that. They were arguing with each other. You know, they had different issues to themselves.

19:05And it turns out that the guy in the glasses, the nerdy-looking guy had his own issue, particularly. in that final reveal. But I did think that, I just thought that having them as the enemy, them as the perpetrators, didn't quite work for me. But, you know, but what they were doing was scary and interesting and dramatic enough for it not to matter in the end. It kind of didn't matter, really. It's almost like the MacGuffin of the whole thing. Is that, yeah, the solution isn't that intrinsically interesting. But, you know, that's a kind of, but everything else about it was brilliant, basically.

19:34But I think that's true, isn't it? The actual, who the people they were foiling was almost irrelevant because we are there for the slow horses and what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick's, really Nick's criticism that he wrote in his review was that he thought there was too much Claude Whelan and too much Roddy so we didn't get to spend enough time with like River and with Lamb. I was just like, I really like that Roddy had a lot more to do. And also, I think Whelan's a delight. It balances out with the previous series, right? You want to have that modulation of who your focus is on. Otherwise, it's just one, you know, And I think it's deliberate because the previous season had so much action

20:08So I think this one was deliberately an action set piece, but was quite contained with just three people, and then a bunch of dialogue scenes. And I think it was really a good idea not to attempt to, because quite a few of them have ended with quite spectacular climaxes. I like that this one was more contained, and it was more character-driven. And also, it was the bell ends to the fore, right? And Roddy and Whelan. So actually, I quite enjoy that too. Whelan's line, can I say, are you aware this is absolutely a no-smoking facility? He's like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's righteous indignation.

20:38at the wrong time. It's like, oh my God, this is the least of your problems. I liked how we saw, I think as well, I mean, you know, when he's in the park and he meets, what's his name, Standish, and he's like working out what to do about how to apprehend... Who, Lamb? Yeah, Lamb. Yeah, yeah. And I think you see his genius, how brilliant he is, really, kind of more in this series almost than ever. And he, because he's the one who captures her, he's the one who kind of works out what to do, how to handle all of these people, really. Yes, and he's never done, like actually, he's never been at the front of stuff before, I don't think, right?

21:08I think he is, he likes, he works under the... As in, he doesn't apprehend people usually, I don't think. No, he's definitely more up front in that way. And as he reminds Whelan at the end, he reminds him, you know, it's him and his team that have, one way or another, sorted the whole thing out and saved it from all the dogs and the spooks and whatever you call them. But the fact that he knows exactly what the fuck he's doing, beneath all the smoking and the drinking and the farting and the, you know, all of that, he above all else is a brilliant operator. And that, I think you're reminded more than ever in this series.

21:41I thought they handled that really well. Yeah, he's really good. And I think also River starts to realise, because he makes a couple of comments, he's like, let him make the phone call. He doesn't come out from behind his desk unless it's something worth doing. He recognises that Lamb is very, very good at what he does, which I think for the first few scenes he didn't quite. No, indeed. It's the old guard and new guard for those two, isn't it? Yeah, I think he thinks that probably Lamb thinks he's also underneath it all really good at, but Lamb doesn't think he's really good so he still thinks he's a bit of a fucking idiot.

22:07Yeah. But it's interesting at the end where Lamb essentially sabotages his return to the party. He's like, he's not ready. Yeah, yeah. And he's not wrong. He's not wrong. It's like you're not ready to host, you know... He thinks he's like... River thinks he's... Thank you very much. He thinks he's Jason Bourne but he's a bit more Johnny English than this season, I think. Very good, yeah. VG. That would have been a good line in the review. Yes. Well, on behalf of River Cartwright and myself, I think we've... successfully discussed that. That is the, do you know what? That recognition is the best thing to come out of this full of special.

22:40It's been like group therapy. I'm glad, I'm glad I could bring some joy. Fantastic. We've enjoyed chatting about this. We hope you did too, although it was brief. Boydie and I are going to sit down and chat a task at some point very soon. Possibly next week or before then. Boydie, sound more exciting. Boydie's apparently very busy. No, no, I am. Yeah, I am. I mean, he's a busy man. He's very hard to pin down. Yeah, he's in demand. We're lucky he's even there. But we need to talk to us, so we will get on with that. In the meantime, we're done. Thanks very much for listening, and thank you very much for subscribing.

23:10We do very much appreciate it. See you on Monday. Pilot out.