Task Spoiler Special with showrunner Brad Ingelsby

0:08Welcome to Pilot Plus and our very special, spoiler special, for Task on Sky, which is very, very exciting. And we've been threatening to do this for quite some time on Pilot Plus, but we finally got around to it. Boyd is here. Hello, Boyd. Hi, James. How are you doing, James? I'm good. I'm good. This is a Task I don't mind ticking off the list. No, I'm not going to say that. You just said it. I did just say it. Yeah, you're right. It's too late for me to cut it out. Yeah. Yeah, terrible. Look, we're going to talk about the show. We have a lot to talk about. But before we do so, Boydie, before we get into this, people should hear from the man himself, Brad Inglesby, the showrunner, the writer, the creative force, the guy who wrote every episode of this show.

0:46And also, let's we forget, Mayor of Easttown, because he and I had a chat yesterday on the Zoom. And it was loads of fun. We talked about all sorts of things. And you know this, Boydie, because I have provided you with that interview and you have listened to it. In a very special situation, which you don't usually do, I've got to listen to your interview. An exclusive preview. Very exciting, James. Yeah, I really enjoyed it, James. How was it for you, James? I see what you're doing there and I think listeners will also understand what you're doing there when they listen to this interview that I did with Brad Inglesby.

1:20Hey, James. How are you, man? I'm good. Hi, Brad. Thanks very much for your time. Of course, man. Happy to do it. Appreciate you having me on. No, absolutely. Well, welcome to the podcast. And we're going to talk about all kinds of spoilerific stuff. But if I could start with my favourite episode of the show, episode five, specifically, specifically my favourite scene from the show, which is the car journey, that car journey, which is just incredible, like the back and forth between them. And, you know, the fact that you love both of these characters and you're really struggling with kind of who to align with.

1:55And, you know, it's friendly and then it's not friendly. And I just want to be in a writing that. How hard was that to calibrate, to do exactly what you want to do? Because to an extent, that's your De Niro and Pacino in the diner scene, isn't it? That's right, James. I think it was, you know, it was a daunting scene to write because, as you said, everything was sort of leading up to that moment. And I wanted it to, you know, be satisfying in that way. I wanted the audience to feel like that it was worth the wait and that it would pay off emotionally. And I think it was, as you said, I think you nailed it.

2:37It was a shifting of the audience constantly shifting allegiance. And I think that's what makes the show work is that we like Robbie and we like Tom. And the tension comes from not knowing who's going to who's going to make it out once they collide. And just as you mentioned Heat, I think that's that's the same kind of tension and heat. I think what works so incredibly well in Heat is you want Robert De Niro to get away and you want Al Pacino to catch him. and um and i think you know in in our case too we wanted it to be really emotional too we wanted to see each of these characters going through a lot of these situations that we'd set up with tom you know suddenly wanting to call his son and robbie suddenly realizing well this is the end of the line and what's it going to feel like to die and how you know and ask all these big questions in the in the throes of a of a plot engine and so there was a lot of pressure but it it makes a big difference to have two amazing actors yeah that that i think they make up for a multitude of sins if you know what i mean i mean did you know writing it like when you sat down to write you were you like okay this this is this is going to be a big writing day for me this is going to be very stressful yes yes absolutely i i knew because you know everything's been leading up to that moment james and again i i always want the audience to feel like you know it it it pays off and um it It was worth the wait.

4:04And so I felt very, I felt a lot of pressure to make that scene sort of sing and pay off on many different levels emotionally. And then in terms of the tension. So I can remember getting there and going, wow, I've been thinking about this sequence for a very long time. You know, and it's nice to put it off. I like to procrastinate. I don't have to write that. I don't have to write that. And then eventually there comes a time where you go, well, you can't, you know, you're not able to put it off any longer. Like the show needs you to write this. There needs to be a production date. We need to get the actors ready.

4:36You have to write it. And also, you know, I love to collaborate. So like earlier drafts of that scene were much longer and I knew they would be cut down. But my idea was let's, you know, let's capture a lot of it and then let's get in the edit and see which parts we can lose and which parts need a little bit more attention. And so the earlier drafts of that sequence were much, much longer. And there were many, many other things discussed. us and i knew we'd never be able to keep all of them but i felt like you know if we had these two great actors in this car let's get as much as possible james and then we can whittle it down a little bit because also the genius part of it is it's a face-off but they're not face to face yes yes it's face to back of head well that's what we really wanted you know we wanted you know we wanted it to be different we want you know how do we how do we separate ourselves from scenes that are normally a face-off and how do we do things a little bit different and um and so it was just adjusting that and then once we found out the car and then okay let's have him in the back and in the front like it just it was able to subvert expectations a little bit and still keep the tension and i thought you know working with jeremiah our director on staging it we both helped and also we wanted to shoot the car scenes uh practically too so we didn't want to shoot on the stage we didn't want screens we wanted it to be a practical um you know you don't in that case we were going to pull the car up and down the highway and so so we had a very specific idea of what the sequence would look like and as you said i think it was just like you know trying to subvert expectations where we could and yet still give the audience what they expect in a face-off scene games but i mean like i say it's an incredible incredible moment and to the point where you know people talk about episode six and like the gunfire and it's the big dramatic episode five it's all about episode five for me i you know listen i have to say i really love i love the fifth episode too it's i think it's uh it's a very well-structured episode i was quite you know happy with that i thought our director did a wonderful job jeremiah and sally did a great job in six but i really love how the tension builds in five especially the ending sequence in the woods where you're getting to see them all start to collide so i i agree with you it's a fun episode it's so good i mean we're talking about difficult writing days i mean i feel like that's got to be up there and then of course the courtroom at the end had to have been a a bit of a bit of a tricky one to put together because you're putting together because you need that that speech to do so much and to set up that ending and to sell that ending and you know again that's got to be one that you really have to psych yourself up for but but little moments from like i love the fact that he reads off a crumpled piece of paper and it doesn't like extemporize and just see suddenly this wonderful public speaker.

7:20And it felt so perfect for that character that, you know, he's prepared it almost like a homily, right? Like it's his priest coming to the fore again. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think you're right. And again, that's where working with Mark was, it's so wonderful. You know, he said, listen, I would write this down. This is the kind of guy I am. I was like, 100%, that's exactly what Tom would do. He would have it on a piece of paper right in front of him. And I think a lot of that, James, was listening to the parents of children who had a psychiatric illness and just listening to their testimonies and the stories they would share about what life was like.

8:08And, um, and so I think what was important to me, and again, that was another one that was, if you can believe it, it's really long on the screen, but it's really long on the, it was really, really long on the page. but what I wanted to do with the speech was to I felt like if it couldn't be I didn't want to be maudlin I didn't want him to come up and just go listen it was so wonderful to live with my son I miss my son and I felt like what would work in that speech was to lead with honesty with all the hard truths of what it was like and how difficult it was and really lean into you know, the specifics of what it was like as a parent.

8:50And some of those, you know, I made up some of the details, but a lot of those details about, Hey, the hardest, I just think we remember hearing a parent say, listen, the hardest time for me, it's the weekends where I have to spend it. I have to spend two whole days with my child and I go pick up my child at school and everyone's like, have a great weekend, have a great weekend. And I am dreading the weekend. And I love to zero in on those really heartbreaking details that come from real life and try to pluck them out. And so I felt like what was important with the speech was to lead with honesty and to lead with and to almost have the audience think, my God, is he going to tell the judge to keep his son?

9:31Is he going to ask for more time? But really lead with that and then shift gears into the joy part of it. and I felt like that that would take the sting out of it a little bit um and it would also make it more emotional when it goes to that place of of forgiveness and so that was really important to me and then it was just a um you know in the specifics of that of that speech like I said the weekend the he he didn't want to wear a name tag and I felt like if we got really specific it would resonate and obviously having a performer like Mark as you said he was just so honest and good all the time that makes a big difference he's amazing oh the name tag bit destroyed me absolutely yes i know i know i know i know i know well well i appreciate you saying that i i was a it was a detail that uh that i i found would resonate with people you know and and again mark is so good he just plays it in such a subtle way that he just he always knocks it out of the park you know i'd read somewhere that initially like uh hbo was saying they quite wanted you to end it after the courtroom and not have the kind of coda on the end which is wild to me because i feel like if he keeps sam it kind of minimizes everything else because it's all about him learning to forgive ethan and if he kind of replaces ethan then none of that lands well that's i mean james that's that's that's exactly what you know i think they you know i i think what was in their defense what was happening was it was a tough episode because structurally the action of the piece ends quite early in the episode or early, you know, relatively speaking early.

11:09And so, you know, I think what they were starting to feel is wait, well, the action at Robbie's house, the final action sequence ends at like the 38th minute or something. And then we have another like 20 minutes. So is it starting to feel like a hat on a hat on a hat? And, and so I think it was just a reaction to how long it was taking to kind of get to the ending, ending of the piece. But I had the same I had the same reaction you had, which is, wait, it's not a show about finding replacement for Ethan. In fact, it's a guy that. Well, I also felt really strongly, James, that that Tom giving up Sam was an act of faith, that he's lost his faith.

11:52But giving the boy up is an act of faith. Now, it's not going to the altar and kneeling before the altar or saying mass or going to, you know, you know, he's not going to pledge to God again. And I don't think it's that kind of faith, but I always found it to be a faith in goodness again, right? Like he's experienced this adoption game and it's gone wrong in some way in his life. And now he has to give this boy up and he has to believe in some way that the family that is going to adopt him is going to take care of him. He wants to keep the boy. He loves the boy. He has a great relationship with the boy, but this act of faith, he has to believe that in giving him up, the boy's going to be taken care of.

12:33And that I always found to be an act of faith. And so I felt like, as you said, I always imagined that what the story was about is I'm getting the house ready for my son to come home and I have to recommit to my son and not this new son. And so, and you know, in HBO's defense, once I explained it that way, they said, okay, okay. It makes sense to us now, but I really felt like that was a very important ending in the show. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned faith and faith is a big part of this show, but you reference Richard Rohr in this. And a lot of what he talks about, as I understand it, is kind of a rejection of this kind of almost like binary morality, this kind of the good and evil being flip sides of a coin.

13:19And it feels like, if anything, that's the central thread of this show. There's no hero to this. There's no villain to this. It's just complicated people dealing with a load of shit. I think, you know, I may have to print that out. That's sort of like my MO as a writer is just trying to. Well, I think what it is is just, you know, I always want to approach the characters without judgment. And I want to try to understand why. And not that I have to agree with their decisions that each of the characters are making, but I want to understand why they're making the decisions. And for me, I would have this conversation with Tom about Robbie, and Pelfrey would say, I never saw Robbie as a bad guy.

14:06And I said, I never saw him as a bad guy either. And, you know, it's like, you know, I always felt like I could, I could ask myself what I do, what Robbie was doing. And my answer would be, yeah, you know, I don't, you know, I would, I could, I can make a case that he's doing what he's doing. It's, it's not the, it's not the worst thing. And I try to approach every character in that way. And, and, and to try to embrace that people are many, many different things at once, James. I believe that Robbie was a thief and a liar and a violent man and ultimately a murderer. But I also believe that he was a good dad.

14:44He wanted a companion in life. He dreamed about going to Canada. He loved his kids. And to not ever try to push back against those inconsistencies, but to embrace them and to understand that all these characters lizzie alia obviously grasso being a very conflicted guy all those characters can have many many different qualities and all of them are true and i like to write characters like that i think that really is what the show is about well the bit for me actually that i found a bit of a revelation was in the first episode and i remember having conversation with someone about this they were like well it's ridiculous you know why would he take the boy with him no one would ever do that i'm like no no this is why it's genius because he's just fucked at that point because he's a decent person there's no way out of that because like what is he going to do he can't kill the kid but if he takes the kid he's screwed if he lets the kid go like at that point he's essentially his own morality seals his own fate exactly right and that's the thing like it was so you know i remember i remember writing robbie and being like of course he's going to take the kid this is like this is the this is the heart of who this character is like he can't possibly ever like he's a father himself he's probably come from a troubled background just like this kid he understands the situation it's his own goodness that is his downfall in many ways and i love that about him and i think it makes him such an endearing character and i think you know it's funny you say that because he he became such an endearing character that when we got to the edit and i remember having this in mayor a little bit with evan Peter's character, but I remember getting into the edit of, uh, of task and Tom Pelfrey was so good in the show and people like, we could just, I could just tell that people were going to love him as a character that in the scripts, we get to the end of episode six.

16:33And if you remember kind of a, it kind of ends with Maeve getting the money in the script, we never had another image of Robbie, but we felt his absence so much in the edits. And it, it required me to go back into the dailies, the outtakes. And then we found this beautiful little piece of him in the quarry all by himself, smiling and looking around. But anyway, he was such an endearing character and his goodness was always able to outshine any bad decisions he was making. And it's a testament to Tom's acting ability that even when he was making all those awful decisions, taking the kid or beating up the truck driver, that we still loved him and we still wanted him to get away and we still cared about him immensely.

17:22And that's a testament to Tom's ability. But you mentioned Grasso briefly there. And I thought Grasso was very interesting because again, he's the mole, if you will. And I know this isn't a whodunit and this was a step away from that, but there's a kind of a whodunit as in who is it? Like, who's the mole? That's the question. But he's not, like, you don't get the impression that he's a particularly bad guy. I love the way he discusses it when he's talking to his sister and he's just like, he's just a guy who got in over his head and then just couldn't get out of there. Do you think he's, was he redeemed in your eyes by the end of it?

17:52Like, how did you see that play out? Yeah, well, again, I think it's a gray zone. And we heard about this. This was a true story that our FBI advisor told me that it was a great little nugget where he was working a task force and every time they went to hit one of these drug houses, the drugs were in the wind every single time. And they started to go, wait, like, how is this possible? Like, they have to be getting, and what they realized is a guy on their own task force, his cousins were in the drug business. So he was tipping them off whenever the task force was doing this. And yet, when I talked to Scott about the guy, he's like, I really liked the guy.

18:31You know, we had to fire him, but he never went to jail. And he, you know, and so I just felt like, you know, there are these little decisions that end up being larger decisions that, and I felt like with Grasso in my mind, and we never got to explain it too much because we ultimately ran out of time, James. But what I felt was like, he made one decision and then it spiraled and it ballooned and ballooned and he got in so far over, like just so far over his head. But I think, you know, I think, you know, I don't know. I think he's a guy in my mind. I, I always felt like he's a guy that would struggle with crippling shame that even if he, even if he somehow got off or served a light sentence that, that it was the shame that was really corrosive.

19:19And that comes from my experience in the church and my experience talking to my uncle, who was a priest. And just, I always found him to be a character that suffered from like a crippling amount of shame. And so, did he redeem himself? That's really up to the audience. But I think he's going to have to live with the shame. And I think he's a guy that struggles with shame. And he'll be struggling for a long time, is my instinct. Yeah. So, I mean, this show is obviously set in Delaware County. So, it kind of is in the mayor-iverse, if you will. Am I saying that Mare's daughter was going to turn up at the end of this at one point?

19:50There was a discussion. I know. I know. We actually had written the scene, James. We had written the scene where like Emily goes out with the boyfriend, the magician guy, Leo, and they go to a concert and Mare's daughter was like her band was playing there. But I think what happened was, and I think HBO was probably right, is they felt like it was like we were trying to shoehorn Mare into the show and that it didn't feel like a natural place. place but i still love the idea of you know i still love the idea of having some elements from mayor and task or task in mayor like i still love that idea it just has to be organic it has to feel right but i mean because they really do exist in the same place and some of the streets we shot on were the same streets we shot mayor on and um and i hope you could feel as an audience member that they existed within a similar place yeah absolutely and thematically like because mayor is all about women dealing with the shit that men do and then this is literally the shit that men do right that's that is exactly right that is exactly right that's what we it was like the flip side of the coin here we get to see it uh you know firsthand james you know i mean look mayor was something everyone always wanted to see a season two of mayor and it's not something that you you look to repeat because you know it was meant as a standalone thing now but obviously you are going to get to do a second season yes which is amazing news i mean i know do you do what kind of area you'd like to explore with that?

21:13We have some really, you know, I think we have some really good ideas and I'm still trying to iron out some of the pieces. But I think we have some good, you know, what I would call like, you know, pillars of the story. And I think, you know, I think what's interesting to me is, you know, is sort of, you know, I would say the tragedy of the common man, really leaning into that, like, you know, this is like Arthur Miller type stuff here. And I think trying to explore that again, you know, I love the idea of what happens when Ethan comes home. You know, how's Emily dealing with that? I love Tom having to brace for that and see what that looks like.

21:54I also love exploring another character like Robbie, who's the bad guy in this show, because I felt like, you know, there really was no bad guy. So I love exploring the gray zone. And, you know, I'm just excited to get to do it again. I love getting to tell stories about this place, about people that live here and as you said, exploring the grey zone. No good guys, no bad guys. Just people trying to do their best and that's always been really interesting to me. So the opportunity to do that again is real fun. I can't wait. Like I say, I absolutely love the show. This is one of our shows in the year.

22:27I'm really, really glad to be able to talk to you about it. Thanks, James. I appreciate you watching, man. Thanks for all your comments, man. I appreciate it. Cheers, Brad. Alright, see you, James. Okay, that was me and Brad. Now it's me and Boyd. I'm all about the bees this week. Task, it's going to be on our shows of the year list, right? It 100 % is. It's definitely going to be on mine. And mine. I don't know if... Kay did not watch it. That's why she's not here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew that was the reason. Yeah, definitely. My memory of it, I'm just going to try and big myself up, is that I don't think you...

23:01You didn't get that into it until I banged on about it a bit. So, this is an interesting one. So I did like it from the first episode. I thought it was great. But it took me a while to continue with it. Like I didn't watch the rest of it for a while. And it wasn't until, not until it completely aired, but until it had nearly aired that I binged through the rest of it and couldn't stop. Yeah. So I watched the whole thing ages ago. Of course you did. Of course you did. I thought it was incredibly compelling, gripping, riveting, whichever word. All of these things. All of those things. And the genius of it was, and still is, that it's not a whodunit, unlike the pair of Easttown, which is a very traditional whodunit in many ways.

23:41I mean, the milieu, the gritty working class town that it takes place in obviously has a level of realism that is genius, and this has a similar level of realism about the setting and the different people. Set in the same world, of course. Exactly, yeah. So clearly Brad, your friend Brad, my friend Brad, James, knows what he's doing when it comes to depicting that kind of neighborhood and town and the kind of people that live there and the nefarious stuff that people get up to because they're desperate, etc. All of that. But to not do a whodunit, to follow up one of the great whodunits in recent years with a story that has a mystery to it, particularly, I guess, the identity once...

24:23Episode 2, maybe it kicks in that... There is a mole. The mole, yeah. And then obviously we find out a few episodes in who the mole is. So that mystery is there. That A mystery is there, if you like, about that which worked really well I thought I thought there was a good red herring that's right Martha Plimpton because you think it's going to be Martha Plimpton I thought that was great I love that that's how to do a red herring by the way if listeners or people who create this kind of show I'm telling them what to do because there's a couple of red herrings in recent shows that have I thought have been a bit clunky but I thought he pulled it off brilliantly when you start thinking it's Martha Plimpton yeah Plimpton by the way incredible supporting role brilliantly abrasive she's great so good so instead of instead of it being a whodunit it's a kind of is it kind of he calls it a collision course story is that what he says where it's two characters and he sets them on a collision course right basically it's model on heat he pitched it as working class heat I think we called it hillbilly heat when we reviewed it but that's very much what was on his mind yeah you mentioned the heat comparison in your interview James and in episode 5 which is which is very pertinent indeed.

25:35But I just love the fact that he, I guess the moment when the little kid, Sam, is rescued when his dad has died. And that is the moment, isn't it? From then on, I guess there might not be a mystery, but it's definitely a what the hell is he going to do? What the hell are they all going to do, him and everyone he knows, the niece, etc., going to do with this kid? And is this kid ever going to, you know, kind of survive and what's going to happen? So I guess it's not so much a mystery, of what the fuck are they, how are they going to sort this shit out? And that goes for, I guess, Mark Ruffalo's character, Tom.

26:09Are they going to be able to sort it all out and how are they going to be able to sort it out when all of their lives are in danger at the same time? So there's incredible dramatic tension in this seven hours of TV without a big central whodunit type mystery. I think that is an absolute triumph. Because also, the collision course is an interesting one. Because in Heat, there's always the, will Macaulay get away? Will he pull it off? Because it's different. He is all about competence. These are people at the top of their game, whether it be Al Pacino's Hannah or Daenerys McCauley. They're both very good at what they do.

26:42This is almost like the opposite. They're both slightly shit at what they do. He's not a very good FBI agent. He's not a very good criminal. Oh, Robbie is an idiot. Right. I've still maintained that he's an idiot. I don't know that he's an idiot, but he's certainly not good at this and he should find another profession. But again, I think he's a tragic character because he's in this cycle of poverty where he's, you know, life has dealt him a shitty hand. He's had trauma. He's had grief. But also he's stuck, you know, working as a kind of a, as a dustman essentially. Like, and he can't get out and he feels like he's got no hope.

27:11He feels he's got no way out of this life. And he sees this as a way to kind of almost get revenge, to find justice and to get himself out of this life. But he is at heart a fairly decent guy. And that's what is ultimately his undoing. But I think from that first episode, the bit you mentioned, when he takes Sam, which is the act that undoes him essentially, from that moment, you know he's screwed. Like, you know there's no way out of this for him because then it's just like, right, the clock is ticking, you are 100 % getting caught. It's just a question of what can you do between now and then?

27:41Like, how can you try and find a, you know, the best possible ending for yourself in this selection of bad endings? And I think that's a brilliant way to end the first episode. Oh, it is, yeah. And also, I think you're kind of thinking the worst because it's so, episode two is incredibly tense around the kid, right? Yeah. when the kid's kind of dropped off at one point and then runs off again. This is when Maeve tries to take him back. Yes. And that doesn't go well. That does not go well. So there's a lot of stress and anxiety involved just in the kid, who is, by the way, adorable. I don't think you asked Brad about it.

28:17You had a lot to discuss, to be fair. You only had 20 minutes. I'm not having a go, but... Just focusing on the spoilers. Yeah, you did focus on the spoilers, quite rightly. But a shout out for that kid, because he is absolutely... He's so cute. and lovable. He has a wide-eyed naivete to him, which I think is lovely. Which you really need in this show, because if, I don't know, I mean, you're sorry for any kid in this position, obviously, but it's such a contrast between he is the innocent, lovable, kind, good kid, at the centre of the whole thing. Everyone's flawed. All the adults are flawed, as you say, either incompetent or idiotic or just not great at what they're doing or they jump to the wrong conclusion or they do stuff that is just, you know, viscerally they decide, oh, I'm going to do this and it's a stupid decision invariably.

29:03All of that. And then in the heart of it, you've got this incredible, fantastically lovable small child who the whole thing rolls around brilliantly. And I thought, again, yeah, the casting and the writing of his character is just brilliant. But also, he's got a better life with Robbie and Maeve because, you know, his dad's a monster. But didn't he with Maeve? Yeah, he's lucked out because Maeve is caring. Even with Robbie, he takes him to the creek. I mean, I know they all go. It's not just him. Maeve is there as well. But Robbie has a soft side to it. Let's not pretend that Robbie's a brilliant father because he essentially offloads his kids onto his niece.

29:39He is not a brilliant caregiver. His heart's in the right place, but he's kind of a fuck up. He's a total fuck up. But he's kind to the boy, which you get the impression is more than his parents ever were. They make him sleep in the basement. They're not... And so actually, and there's that one moment where Sam just turns to me and goes I'm ready to go home now and they're like oh shit yes exactly yeah I think I'm surprised the extent to which you and Brad are give give Robbie a bit of a pass yeah I mean he's he does some bad stuff right and he's you know he's I totally get the idea which again goes back to Marevi's term people people are living on the poverty line, they're going to resort to desperate measures.

30:27Absolutely. I get all that. But there are people in this show, like the niece, Maeve is great. Yes. Amelia Jones is fantastic. She's brilliant. And she's got an absolute moral authority to her. I don't think Robbie does. I think, you know, he just lives from one minute to the next trying to work out what the best thing to do for himself is. But equally... One quick thing. Your version of him being nice to the kid and all that, I mean, Yeah, but why wouldn't he be? Like, he's just as nice as he needs to be without being horrible to the kid. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, he's not... But crucially, crucially, he takes the boy with him in the first episode.

31:06Of course. And damns himself completely. And he knows that in doing so, he's just fucked. Whereas his options were, take the boy, kill the boy, that's a very extreme, but the best for him, or leave the boy there, which is the second best for him, because the boy wouldn't be able to identify him. so he could have just left the boy there and gone, but then he's leaving the kid with the bodies of his dead parents. And so rather than do that, he essentially damns himself because the second he takes Sam, that's it. The game's over. He's done. And he knows that, but he does it anyway. And I just thought that was a nice conundrum, though.

31:39Even though he can be quite ruthless, and even though, you know, obviously it gets violent. He doesn't mean it to get violent, but it does. He can't get by that sense that, you know, he sees that boy, he maybe sees his son in that boy, and he's just like, I can't leave this kid here. I'm just going to have to take him. And I think you're right. It's a spur of the moment decision. He doesn't plan it. He just does it. But I think that speaks to an innate sense of decency on a level. Like, I'm not saying he's going to be elected Pope or anything. I don't know. I just don't watch this show and think, oh, he's got an innate sense of decency.