The Crow Girl, Ride Or Die, and The Hawk. With guest Anya Taylor-Joy

27:47Oh, yes, Mr. Prez. Prez Beluski from The Wire remember he's been really sort of incompetent detective Nepo detective who ultimately ends up becoming a really inspiring teacher in the fourth season so he's really good what's that the one in Heartstopper there's a great teacher in Heartstopper oh yeah that's a very good Heartstopper Fizayo Akinade plays Mr. Jai who is absolutely brilliant he's a great and he has a thing with another teacher which actually if you haven't seen it it might be a spoiler no don't say it because that is a massive spoiler. Facts. Professor Annalise Keating, Viola Davis, How to Get Away with Murder.

28:23What does she teach? Law? She's a professor of... Law. Are we counting professors? Educators. Electricators. Oh, I see what you've done there. You've broadened the remit from teachers to educators. Okay, well, if you thought we were just doing teachers, who are your teachers then? Well, you could have had Miss Eva Beadle from Little House on the Prairie, Steph. Yeah, okay. What's the name? Eva Beaver? Can I just say, right, even though you're mocking me for my Little House on the Prairie watch, when I had a little look on Netflix, it's like number three most watched at the moment. Everyone's watching it.

28:57I think it's already huge. I thought it was going to work. And venerable critic Alan Seppenwall, I believe, did a podcast saying, is Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood the same show? And we mocked Steph relentlessly for that. Thank you. Thank you. I said it had Deadwood vibes. It's only, oh, you two are awful. This is not news. Okay, fine. There we go. We hope that has helped you fill out your faculty rosters. If you have a question, either for this main podcast or for something that Steph is about to say. Stop. Because even though I've just remembered, even though you said it was just teachers, come on now.

29:37Who have you forgotten from the only comedy show that you actually like? Who is an educator in that comedy show? your favourite comedy show Friends I mean that's well that's up there certainly it's not my absolute favourite but yes okay Ross he's not a teacher he's a paleontologist this is why we did it as teachers not educators because he could do it I mean honestly so what are you saying if we had made it educators you would have all had even more people to talk about well of course we could have gone on all day and all night with educators I mean I'm just saying that okay go fine Do we call private tutors?

30:17Anyone who educates in a school or college setting. I mean, in many ways, this podcast is educational. Because the lady mentioned Rooster, and that's professors. Oh, you're throwing this back at Hayley, are you, and saying that she was off topic? No, Hayley, I'm not being mean to you. Wow, you came for Hayley. I'm so sorry, Hayley. She's feral. In Hayley's examples of people, it included educators, not just teachers. Okay, fair enough. Who are educators at the same time. Anyway, we can move on because I've gone mad. Postbag at pilottevpod.com And if you're wondering what the difference is between a Pilot Plus question and a main podcast question, there's a very, very distinct difference, a different flavour, a little je ne sais quoi to it.

31:01And I sort them into different folders based on that criteria. But it's ineffable and intangible and unpinned downable. No, it's quite simple. So you can see if you can feel your way through it. It's quite simple. in the regular podcast. It's a question where it involves some kind of thought process. You've got to think about it quite heavily. You might have to do your own research. You might have to Google it, etc. Whereas on the Pilot Plus, there have to be questions that we can respond to in and off the moment. So less ineffable than advertised is what we're saying. Yeah. Okay. Isn't that accurate?

31:28That's fair. More or less. That's absolutely right. Every now and then, James throws in a curveball and asks us a question on that, on the post bag, which is completely impossible to ask on the spot. But that's, you know, it's his way. I'd like to keep you... I'd like you to feel alive, Boydie. Yeah. Living on the edge. I could not feel more alive. Thank you. Fantastic. It is time for this week's guest, and it is the fantabulous Miss Anya Taylor-Joy, whose new show on Apple TV Plus sees her play the title character, Lucky, and she's a career con artist who ends up on the run from both the law and organised crime in the form of Annette Bening.

32:02It's a very propulsive series. We had a good time. We discussed that one and reviewed it on last week's Pilot Plus. but Anya came into our studio last week to chat about the show but let's be honest, mainly to talk about dogs with Steph. So if you're looking for a lovely dose of canine conversation then look no further than this. If you are wondering why this starts in the middle of a sentence it's because Steph prefaced this interview with a question about Bartok the Magnificent which is Anya Taylor-Joy's now sadly deceased dog. I wanted to ask her before because I wanted to talk about dogs because obviously I love dogs and she loves dogs and she grew up with dogs and I wanted to make sure that everything was okay with the dogs before we went into it.

32:46And this is what happened. And this is what happened. And you'd had a joy. Do you have any problem with me bringing up your dog at any point? Which one? Bartok. You guys? Did he? Oh, I'm glad you watched that. I'm so sorry. Oh, God, we're so sorry. I know. Yeah, devastating. But thank you for asking. You know what? I tell you why I asked because, I'm not going to take this whole thing over with dead dogs, but Jack Russell's and they died. And I literally think about it. At the same time? Four months apart, there were brothers. Oh my God, my love, I'm sorry. I can't even, sorry, this is not about my dogs.

33:21No, no, no, no, I understand completely. And I thought, I better just before because I couldn't find out whether, and I thought I'm just going to mention it just in case because it's the worst thing ever. He was a tiny little spirit that came to me, taught me so much, lived the most unbelievable life. Most of his life was hospice care. And then I left one day and I looked at him and I was like, right, he's going to go. I'm so sorry. It's okay. He taught me so much. And he went to the Coliseum. He went to the Coliseum. I was working in Greece at the time that I got him. He went up Mount Olympus.

33:56Like the dog saw the world. Yeah. So it's all good. How long ago did he pass? my first day of the show oh god that's a lot to deal with I know it's also just like a little bit strange because I have a a weird relationship with social media and it I just was not in a place to tell people no but then obviously a year goes on and you're like he's dead I'm so sorry when do you say that yeah god but I'm really sorry about your little ones oh I you know I had I read this quote the other day which was how wonderful it is It makes me feel emotional how wonderful it is that you get to love a dog for most of its life and remember it for the rest of yours.

34:35And I thought it was really beautiful. And that's how I'm like, I'm dog obsessed. And I know you grew up with dogs. Yeah, I mean, just any animal, really. But I think part of growing up or maturing is realizing that the price of love is that at some point you'll have to lose it. And actually, what an incredible thing to feel that deeply. I couldn't remember, yeah. How devastating to feel nothing at all. so to feel that level of pain you really experience love and it really is that level of pain isn't it it's just for me it's kind of unmatched and I think about I think about them all the time and I'm sure you do think about Barton I know this is an unorthodox way to start I'm so sorry literally crying I'm so sorry they're special grief is the thing that connects all of us absolutely it's kind of wild to think that all of us will have to experience that level of pain and it will be an individual feeling, but it's the thing that unites all of humanity.

35:31We experience grief. And elephants. Elephants' grief. I think you're saying we experience grief and elephants. And elephants. I have not experienced an elephant. We'll experience an elephant at some point. Oh, God. When you watch those, have you ever watched videos of elephants kind of converging on the bones of a... They have funerals, don't they? Yeah. Families of them. And they cry. And they cry. They travel for the funeral. It's wild. Yeah, incredible. We should all experience elephants. I think that's the takeaway from this Annie welcome to the show sorry to bum you out first thing in the morning I had to check honestly that was a really lovely conversation I'm really happy to be here thank you for having me in fact it would have been better see we always love it when people bring dogs with them some people do travel with an entourage of dogs well I do have another dog she is very large I'm not sure if she's a Doberman because you wanted to get a Doberman originally when you got Bartok I love that you know this Steph always researches the dogs.

36:27I know, and then someone sent me the picture of Bartok, the Magnificent, to have his full name, and you're like, no, no, no, there's something. Yeah, no, of course. So what was amazing was the day after Bartok died, I had always said, I really would love a Doberman, but I don't necessarily want to buy a Doberman. Like, if a Doberman comes out for adoption, that would be amazing. And people continuously told me, you're not going to get a Doberman. Like, that just doesn't happen. The LA Fires happened the day after. Wow. Like, Bartok died. There were four Doberman puppies. that had been taken to a kill shelter.

36:57And so we just sweeped in, got Yzma, and she's now huge. I'm not surprised. So the next time I see you, I will bring my horse-a-lice dog. Absolutely. It's almost compulsory. We want the dogs in the studio if we can have them. Great. Can we just talk about dogs now? I could talk about dogs all day. But okay, let's talk about Lucky as well. All right. Obviously, big complaint with the show, not enough dogs in it. But beyond that, watching this, I mean, look, morally ambiguous characters, I guess, are not unusual. and they're a lot of fun to play and a lot of fun to watch. But the one thing that always sticks out is most of them are men, right?

37:30Like that's a thing. Pretty much always, up until recently. Yeah. But I mean, is that what stood out to you about Lucky, that she feels like she's in this space, but she's like a morally ambiguous female lead? Absolutely. But it was also the amount of contradictions I would have to play every single day in order to be able to get it right. What's very interesting about playing a con woman on screen is as the lead of a show, technically the audience has to feel like they know you. But if you're continuously lying on screen, technically doing it well enough to fool the people also in that world, how do you keep the audience on side?

38:06How do you get to show them what's real, what's not real, what belongs to that person and what doesn't belong to that person? And that level of performance really interested me because I had to have it on a dial. Some days the con had to be a little bit worse to let everybody else in. Sometimes it had to be really, really good. And that I just found really fascinating. Because she's, I mean, by default an unreliable narrator, isn't she? Because you can't trust anything she says. But I wonder, do you think there's a gendered aspect to that as well? Because people often don't talk about these kind of male characters needing to be likable.

38:40Nobody cares if they're likable. No one cares if Tony Soprano is likable. With female characters, I often feel the dialogue is often around, are they likable, are they not? oh a thousand percent yeah I was actually I was having an interesting conversation the other day because someone asked me why it is that men fear going bald so much and I said we don't well here's the thing way out of you here's the thing I think it's they've been told that it's the only thing that they potentially have to lose as they get older nobody concerns nobody's concerned about wrinkles about aging about like you're just guaranteed that you'll live quite a good life most of the time so that's why they're obsessed with their hair yeah James and I don't need to worry about masculinity anymore no I personally love I love the board look.

39:17Oh, thank you. Thank you. That could be the greatest thing you've ever said. You're on the right podcast. Can I ask you a question? Because I listened to an interview where you talked about feminine rage, and I was brilliant. Okay, so you made the point that, okay, there's loads of, and you made the point that there's no disrespect to any writers, but that a lot of the time you'll find female characters reacting to a man's terrible behavior, and a female character will sit quietly and a single tear will roll down, and actually that is not what happens and women get angry and they shout and they scream and that's really...

39:53How important was it for you to find a character that had those reactions and had an authentic female reaction? Why? So it's a bit of a two-parter. Why do you think we don't see that so much in TV shows? Do you think people are afraid to show the real feminine rage? I don't think there's been a lot of room for women in history in general and I don't think they've necessarily been allowed to be people. Yes. People get angry. People feel sadness. People feel happiness. Women have not necessarily been allowed to have all of those colors. There's sort of like an acceptability in certain aspects. If you see a crying woman, everyone's like, oh, that's fine.

40:35Like we so know how to do this. Hysterical. We love. but rightful rage is I think quite scary for for people so that's always been something that I've been really interested in not necessarily from the point of view of wanting to be like feminism just no wanting to fight for the right of my character to be a fully fledged person like that's basically it and then the other part of your question was messy yes okay so lucky fascinated me because again because of the con there were very specific moments where she was allowed to have emotion and I think having played a number of people who have been in really extreme circumstances where they're surviving I think none begs the question more than lucky okay you're really good at surviving but what is it to live like do you want that okay you've been in survival mode for such a long period of time and you've been performed if people are telling you all of the time who you are do you get to make the choice of who you want to be like are you allowed to do that and that i found really intriguing yeah because as well as you and your character in the show you've got annette benning i think it's so brilliant and refreshing to see her i know in this kind of role because normally you'd see this would be a guy as well right that that kind of thing where she's a really violent ruthless she will do anything to get what she wants and i think she's done something so unexpected with it because you know the role of sort of mob boss i think we all have a perception of it and she's made it really interesting and sexy and a little bit weird and you're just so and she's funny oh she's so funny lines sound so good coming out of her mouth i know that sounds ridiculous but when you're an actor you're just like you hear a line you go damn every scene she's in it's like oh my god she's being so pretty every line she says It's fantastic, isn't it?

42:30Yeah, completely. Well, Steph and I have recently got obsessed with Yellowstone, and of course she's in Dutton Ranch as well, also playing a slightly villainous character. So she's clearly got a new oeuvre. We love Annette Bening as a... Yeah, Annette Bening is absolutely amazing. That's a great career turn. There's a scene in episode two, I think, in fact, right at the beginning of episode two, where you're singing Modern Love, the David Bowie song. Yeah. With Drew Starkey, the two of you. Now, how much fun was that to do? Was that in the script, that particular song? And how much did you enjoy singing along and doing, like, belting it out together?

42:57Without giving too much away, anytime you see me with Drew, I was so happy because it meant I was not running for my life. It's usually a flashback. Yes. I'm usually clean. Yeah. And I'm performing some sort of like happy, loved up activity. The rest of the show is not that. No. So anytime I saw him, I was like, thank God. The song, we didn't have it immediately. But then once it became part of the conversation, we really thought, please don't let us leave that. Like, we need to have this budget. Let's do it. Yeah. It was so much fun. Yeah. Great times. Can I ask about the music, actually? Because you, okay, so you've got Fiona Apple doing the correct, which you wanted it to be female-centric with a rock edge.

43:38How important was that to you to have that kind of female-centric music throughout the show? Massively so. I think that's the beauty of producing. You get to be part of every conversation. And I have two very distinct sides of my personality. on the one hand I'm highly emotional very esoteric I'm all feelings and vibe and fairies and all of that and then the other side of me is like ballet disciplined I love a spreadsheet like I want to know how we're doing all of this and having that kind of detail oriented energy to put into producing is fabulous so when it comes to the music immediately I wanted something that sounded like Lucky's voice because you don't often get to hear Lucky's voice in the show and most of the time you're wondering whether she's lying or not.

44:24So you needed some sort of auditory cue that felt connective to the person that you were watching. And Fiona's just the dream. I mean, she's the perfect person. No, she's fantastic. And the title sequence as well. I know. It was beautifully, so good. She wrote a song for the show. It's so fabulous. Because you are actually a trained ballerina. You trained till you were 15, didn't you? Yeah. And I heard you play the ukulele and the electric guitar. I did a long time ago. I've yet, I'm kind of getting back into guitar now, but I did play the, you do your research. Steph puts us to shame. You're very professional.

45:01I was fascinated. I was absolutely fascinated. Yes, and I also was reading, I was talking to Boyd because obviously we're in the midst of the World Cup. So obviously Argentina. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Do you manage to watch the matches? Do you get time to do it? I was at a no phones event during not this last match, but the other one. and then as I was telling you, I was stuck in an airport for two days. But I hear about it and actually the event that I was at, I thought it was very sweet because somebody that was working the bar came up to me and was like, just so you know, Argentina just wants.

45:38So yeah, it's wonderful. It's very exciting. And it could be England versus Argentina if we both go through it. It's a big one. It's hard, man. A lot of tension. It's hard. Being Anglo-Argentine, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Interesting choice. How do you find that? Because obviously you're in LA a lot of the time, but what do you miss most about being here? Obviously not the lack of air conditioning, but other than that. Honestly, my accent. Really? Yeah. Does it reassert itself? I don't actually spend that much time in LA. I'm usually, you know, luckily I'm working.

46:09So wherever the job is, you know, last year it was the Middle East and Budapest. So wherever the job is, that's where I am. But having married an American, I tend to mimic the people I'm around. and so my accent goes away and when I come back here, I'm like, come on. It's all hard consonants. Yes, and people get really upset with me about it. They're just like, why is her accent so weird? I'm like, dude, I know. I would also prefer it to be something that's stuck around but it's also really good for my job. So, kumbaya. Does British telly follow you? Do you miss British shows when you're in the States?

46:45Very much so. I'm working on something at the minute that I'm producing that I'm so excited about because of its truly British identity. So I'm excited about that. Do you pay much attention? Obviously, now, I want to preface this question with, I haven't paid me or anything, but this Apple TV, right, is on a real roll, I think. So much good stuff is coming from Apple. We talk about that. Honestly, we're not being paid at all or anything else sponsored, sadly. But feel free, Apple, to pay us. That would be fine. Yeah, exactly. We are available to be paid. But do you feel, are you aware of that?

47:13Were you aware of that when you're making Lucky that, you know, there is something, you know, quite inspirational about the creativity of a lot of Apple shows. I think I really enjoyed my experience on The Gorge that was Apple. And I thought they were fantastic on that and very creative and collaborative. And then it just felt like the perfect partnership for Lucky. So I wasn't really paying attention to it that much. I think retrospectively, I've really realized, oh, there's something that they're carving out where they're making very adult-centric shows. they're making shows for grown ups in a way that I think is really exciting and I feel very lucky to be a part of that they feel very different each one feels like an event yeah yeah completely can I ask you something about so in the first episode when Lucky is she's running she's running for her life and she's doing this incredible scene running on the lorries so much running and then when I was watching I was thinking she's running like like me she's running like flailing her arm she's really she's really like running like I would run she can't and honestly I was thinking she can't run she can't run and then I listened to an interview where you say you were told to run less swell which was fascinating to me it's so interesting because you know I've played quite a few people that are the best at what they do and that is so fun for me again as like an ex-ballerina because I'm like oh my god I get to make this really precise and there is such a thing as getting it right.

48:47And then when we were at Caesar's Palace, I did the first take and Jonathan just went, you're running too well. I don't believe they're going to catch you and you need to make this look bad. And I was like, okay. First time a director told me to make something look bad on screen. But it was so exciting because I do think it adds this level of tension and fear because you're like, she's not going to get away with this. Oh, it makes complete sense. She's not doing a good job at all. It was so authentic. It was like, oh, that's me running. If an FBI person was chasing me, that's how I'd run. I'd be going like this.

49:21We were also hoping that there's a little bit of audience wish fulfillment in that, where you're like, oh, I hope I would be like that in that situation. But yeah, it was fascinating. I ran through California, the entirety of it. Yeah. And more deserts. You spent a lot of time in deserts recently, aren't you? So much time in deserts. Good thing I like them. it would kind of be terrible if that was the idea of hell I am a Dune obsessive we have to let you go unfortunately but I'm a Dune obsessive so I kind of even though this is a TV podcast I have to say you'd said I think previously that when you did Dune Part 2 which is obviously one day wasn't it?

49:56just in Namibia that it was one of the best sort of filmmaking experiences you've had yeah why was that? I think because it was 10 of us on this insane Dune in Africa with a secret and it felt like we were in film school. Like it was just so free and just for like the sheer joy of creating. And I love what I do. And when you get to be around other people who have that same kind of completely non-jaded attitudes towards the thing that we do, that's the magic. You just feel like kids running around. Except you have more of a budget. Yeah. And Denise is much like a teenager. Yeah, Denise, the cool older teenager at school.

50:40and I'm like, oh my God, he thinks I'm cool. It's amazing. Fantastic. Well, Anya, thank you so much for coming in and visiting us here. Thank you for having me. This was really fun. Next time, please bring the dog. Bring the dog. Yeah. Copy that. Yeah. Okay, that was Anya Taylor-Joy and time now for this week's news. And there is a piece of news that I have been meaning to mention for must be three weeks now and each week I forget to mention it. And that is that the trailer dropped for the third and I think final series of Colin from Accounts. Oh. And this dropped weeks ago. but we don't have an air date for it here in the UK yet it's coming quite soon in Australia but I don't know when it's coming here but the trailer is great and it made me remember exactly why I love that show and I cannot wait to see it do you know what's ridiculous I did see that trailer and it does look great and I totally forgot and I saw it yeah because it's quite an extended trailer isn't it yeah it's pretty long I wanted to put on my Echo Park brewery cap and sit down and watch it but has it gone on release date no not here wasn't series 2 slightly a letdown though am I remembering wrong It wasn't as good as Series 1.

51:41I don't think it was necessarily a letdown. It had a different rhythm. Again, it suffered from the nobody wants this problem where the kind of frisson of them getting together and feeling their way through that. They entered the latter part of the invite phase where everything had got a bit stale and it wasn't. But then, of course, it all ramps up at the end of the second season. I won't spoil and say why. But they're still delightful characters to be around, as indeed is Colin the dog. Yeah, Colin the dog. God, that's me. Why haven't they given it a release date? I think it has a release date in Australia, since we don't know when it's coming over here.

52:14I think this happened last time from memory. It actually took quite a while for some reason to arrive. We will get it. We will get it, yeah. It's shown on the BBC, isn't it? I think that's partly why, because they have to put aside six weeks in their schedule somewhere for it. It can take longer. But yeah. So yeah, Colin from Accounts. Coming soon. Talking of trailers, people will know, regular listeners will know how excited they are about The Shards which is the Braxton Ellis novel adapted by Ryan Murphy and so not only they released the trailer which looks fabulous eight is set serial killer beautiful people students being terrorised by said serial killer I need to read the book before this comes out do you?

52:55yeah because I said I would you said to our listeners? I said to you because you said that it's one of your favourite books in the last few years and for you to say that I need to read it okay fair enough it's quite lengthy it's quite about 550 pages did you see what he did there? but he's implying that you won't get through it no no no he's just forewarned he's forearmed you know what I'm saying he's not the only person who's implied I haven't done something okay let's see where that lands you yeah okay fair but it looks great and the but what's interesting is that if you listen if you're a regular listener to Brady Stenelis' podcast which I am it's a fantastic podcast which I've been going for years and years and years.

53:36He was one of the early adopters of podcasting. He's very reluctant to talk about the Shards. And he's kind of reluctant in general to talk about projects that involve him on TV and film. Because I think he thinks, I don't know, he's got various issues about it. Because it turns out, because he's kind of underplayed his involvement in this show. Because it actually turns out that he is a co-creator of the series with Ryan Murphy and more than that he's co-written some of it with Ryan Murphy as well which that I think is new news because I don't think he's revealed that on the podcast so he talks every now and then he the producer of the podcast who by the way he's a doofus says oh tell us about how's the shards going and he's like I don't really I can't really talk about it I don't really want to talk about it and then a couple weeks ago someone like the guest asked him about and he said well I can say that I've seen the first two episodes and I liked them but even then he didn't say oh by the way I've co-written those two episodes with Ryan Murphy.

54:30She's like, oh yeah, I liked them. That I wrote. That I wrote, exactly. So that makes it even more exciting for me because I think if you've been an out-and-out Ryan Murphy and someone else kind of show, and Ryan Murphy, by the way, you can always gauge the level of interest Ryan Murphy has in his own projects, of which there are a myriad, right? He's the Taylor Sheridan of his world. Then someone else might have directed it, someone else might have written, he just produces it. He's co-written with Brantley Sass and others, and he's directed at least the first episode. So for me, that is a big commitment and that seems to be, and they're trumpeting it on Hulu and Disney Plus here, arrives on the 6th of August here, more than they have a show, an American show or more than I've seen a Ryan Murphy show done for a long time.

55:12So I think they're very kind of big on it. They're going heavy on it and that's, bottom line, Trey looks great. It stars Homer Geer, by the way, who yes, is Richard Geer's son in the key role and I can't wait to see the whole thing and review it on this very show. I know you've all been waiting for this news. This is this week's Lisa Nandy news. Nandy Watch, UK Culture Secretary, who we now need to know what's doing at all times. She is talking about the license fee, the BBC license fee being extended to streamers beyond the BBC. That is what she... She's outlined plans that it could be extended because it rose to£180 last year.

55:54That's a lot of money. What does that mean, extended to streamers? I will read to you what she says. Please do. Because the context of this, by the way, is it was the BBC's annual report this year. Yeah, with the salaries as well. With salaries. Also, they are kind of saying that even though they make more money than ever and they get higher ratings than ever in some examples, like the traitors, celebrity traitors, for example. And the other thing that did brilliantly was the Night Manager series to his massive, biggest drama, new drama BBC for years. Despite all these success, they still... the license fee is still not high enough for them to carry on doing that over to you.

56:30Right, I will read this. A prospective new model could see households, this is really interesting, pay the full license fee if they viewed both live BBC broadcasting and use streaming services. But what is interesting about this, while those who solely stream may pay a smaller amount, which is really interesting because I actually don't know that many people now who will watch linear TV. I know you do, don't you? You watch linear TV, but I don't. Do you? Oh, God, no. I literally don't even have an aerial. Right, okay, so that's interesting. You don't have to have an aerial, by the way. Yeah, I don't know whether you do, but I don't know why I said that because I'm not sure.

57:06But anyway, we're getting into the technical parts of it. She also added that the licence fee could come down in cost as part of any potential changes while stating that they were having an open conversation with the public, Parliament and the BBC. But if they don't have enough money, surely this means they will have less money no no no because effectively they're going to get money from the streamers is the idea at least think about almost taxing the streamers so if you think of in some ways the license fee is a tax on TV viewing right but if you only watch the streamers then you don't have to pay that because you only have to pay for them so now everyone who streams but then how many people actively don't pay a license fee I would have thought most people end up because you're just like, oh, I might walk past a radio in the house or something.

57:52It's still a big issue because, you know, there have been pensioners who have been arrested for not, you know, reported and fined for not paying the fee. It's a very hot potato, the license fee. On a bigger level, as almost a philosophy, you're taxing people for this. Americans can't believe it. Whenever I have to mention to Americans in context, like sometimes TV producers and directors and writers and stuff, whenever the license fee comes up, which is not often, but every now and then it might. They cannot even conceive of a world in which you're paying a tax to be able to watch TV. I mean, it is kind of extraordinary.

58:28And you can... It is. In many ways, it's like a Netflix subscription if Netflix was compulsory. Yeah, well, that's the other thing. That's how I see it. The other option, what they're looking into, what they're going to have to look into when they're looking into right now is, you know, can it be more of a subscription model for the BBC and the public service broadcasters? But that's a rocky road. that's a very dangerous road to go down because at the moment you know you have the reason you have I don't know a documentary about Gaza on Channel 4 or about Grenfell on BBC I mean Netflix did their own Grenfell documentary which was brilliant by the way but you know those things those public service things they would go by the wayside or certainly the danger if you're paying a subscription using a subscription model for the BBC so it's very complicated it is complicated but what she's sort of saying here as I'm reading a bit more Alice Alice oh Nandi she doesn't want the BBC to have to succumb to advertising, she doesn't want to rely on advertising and this is kind of her idea that okay you know, the BBC is in decline their profits are in decline so what she's saying is, look there's loads of streamers here at the moment, people are investing basically, her quote, there's something quite magical happening in the UK at the moment some of the biggest streaming companies in the world are here investing in very large numbers right across the country partly because of British creativity partly because of the BBC but also because everybody's on the hunt at the moment for locally rooted stories with universal appeal and the UK is brilliant at it.

59:53I mean, you only have to look at something like Adolescence and how that went just absolutely crazy. Of course they're going to be thinking there must be some way to extract some money out of these streamers. I think that is what's happening, yeah. And who can blame them? Because, you know, Prime Video, which is owned by Amazon and Netflix, which is one of the most now, one bit much profitable um And the biggest content providers, to use that horrible phrase, ever, you know, is they're making, they're raking in the cash. I mean, you know, Disney plus God knows how much they make as well. So why not?

1:00:27You'd try and find a way of getting money from them, wouldn't you? Yeah, you absolutely would. But who thought Nandi, we need to get Nandi on. We need to get Nandi on. I'm sure she's available. I'm sure she'd be thrilled. The thing is, she might be out of a job because the new Prime Minister is. Oh, that's true. Of course you'll have time then. She will. That's true, yeah. Why if you're up at Nandi, which you could just get, you know, the new Prime Minister on. absolutely let's do it okay good well that was our politics corner with Steph and Lisa and Andy so yeah nice can I mention this is no one else will care about this apart from me NCIS spin-off NCIS New York right no no no it's going to premiere sometime in autumn this year are you telling me yeah LL Cool J's back it's exciting are you telling me that you're an NCIS viewer oh my god of course that is ultimate comfort TV like you can always watch an NCIS your Law and Order SVU.

1:01:17Yeah, I could watch all of that. I'm totally, I know Terry's a massive fan. I could, or any of those shows I could watch. I don't think I've ever watched an episode of the last NCIS. Do me a favor, do yourself a favor. You should watch one. Really don't feel you need to. I've seen a few. Have you? Okay. One of those. Perhaps, may I suggest more excitingly? Is it a Doctor Who thing? No, no, no. What Doctor Who thing? No, no. They're just, they confirmed in their annual report that they are putting out a tender which we knew and they emphasize how they're working very hard on the next iteration of Doctor Who.

1:01:46The regeneration, yeah. The regeneration in a year's time. That's why I read. Oh, really? Yeah. It's specified in a year's time. I didn't know that. That's news to me. I bit me. Yeah, interesting. No, did you see, James, the first images of Carrie? I did, yes. Oh, that was on my list. Yes, I did. Mike Flanagan, Carrie. I'm so interested in this project. Of all of his stuff, and he's done loads of Stephen King-related things, and he's done loads of his own stuff, which is some of the best TV dramas of recent years, but how he's going to freshen up Carrie. You know, I'm going to say it, get ready, one of my favourite films of all time.

1:02:24Oh, God. Brian De Palma's version of Carrie, the Sissy Spacek, etc. Masterpiece. How is he going to deal with that and turn it into a multi-part? I'm fascinated by the whole thing. I don't think he can. Just because of... also I absolutely love that film yeah I love that film and I just think exactly I agree with everything you said Sissy Spacek I just I don't know how you do it it feels like it's going to be a very long show about bullying but yeah exactly which was yeah I don't know about that but what I'm reading about is they're saying the challenge is how to make it smaller and I feel like you just you can't really make Stephen King novels smaller when they've been on the you know on their big screen I just don't know how why would you want to do that I suppose is the question but for me the problem with it in a way you can see that it becomes a high school drama right you know with all the high school characters and as you say bullying etc but the climax is so kind of over the top over the top over the tock it will be over the tock they'll all be filming on their phones grandiose and operatic it's like you can't even attempt to do that well the other question is like your natural instinct will be the only way to top that is to go bigger yes and like well what do you do well apparently they're going to go smaller they're going to go smaller they're trying to make it smaller that's a weird I mean yeah I don't see that we go smaller everyone I don't see that happening I don't know we'll see maybe they'll do something different with the with the finale yeah I think maybe they have to yeah yeah because I don't because it's so iconic I don't know how you how you iterate on that right I'm going to literally give you Mike Flanagan's quote right so he says yes well the big question is always why typically when you're adapting a Stephen King book mission is completely different it's about how do you make it smaller does he mean like as in because his books are lengthy tomes I don't know this was yeah I suppose so although Carrie is not one of the longer ones so this was the complete inverse if we're going to tell the story of Carrie White in long form how do we how do we make it expand sorry I've taken that oh okay so he's literally sorry so I saw the yeah so there's a dot dot dot after it and actually it's incorrect grammar because then there's a question mark anyway it doesn't matter but yeah so I don't know how they expand that and make it long form.

1:04:41I'm interested to see but I just I don't know why they choose to do this with something so... I totally see why because any IP that hasn't been turned into a multi-part TV series is, you know, I don't know just being slow because that's what happens to everything. There was a terrible remake of it wasn't there? Film remake of Carrie and there's been a musical as well I believe so there have been kind of fairly, various other versions of it, adaptations of it I mean, if anyone can do it, Mike Flanagan can, because he's fucking brilliant. And Stephen King's an exec producer on it, blah, blah, blah.

1:05:13I'm open-minded. Do you know what I'd like? I'd like to see a TV remake of Misery. I'd like that. I would welcome that. But again, that doesn't in any way lend itself to a TV show, because it'd just be him in bed for like eight episodes. I think Carrie lends itself more. I think I could do it. Of the Stephen King classics, I can see that Carrie is easier to turn into a movie. Yeah, which you couldn't do like Cujo, for example. No. Because you're going to be locked in a car for the whole season. How's that going to work? You've made some good points. You've made some very good points. The Shining, have they done it already?

1:05:43The Shining was a miniseries, wasn't it? I think it was. I seem to remember. A while ago. They might well have done it. A while ago. But possibly. Anyway, keep an open mind. Well, it's a thing that's happening. It's not the only horror thing that's happening, we should say. Linda Cardellini of DTF St. Louis fame is in Camp Crystal Lake, which is the Friday the 13th series, the prequel series. And she's, in a picture of it, covered in blood. DTK New Jersey. I'm saying very good yeah and that joke was the only reason I brought that story up of course yes I've got an email about a star-studded show did you get this Paddy Considine Ronan Bennett drama for Channel 4 is coming up it's called Army of Shadows and it's got a very good cast so Paddy Considine is getting America Ferrara Alex Hassel of thingy fame rivals fame he's the one who gets his knob out in the first episode nice And Kit Harington is a big cast.

1:06:37And it's set in a world, a version of Britain, which is kind of being taken over by a right-wing state. It feels like quite a political show. Can't it matter what that's like? Indeed. And it's also inspired by Jean-Pierre Melville's 1969 film of the same name. So it's quite interesting. It says, this is the description, which is actually for a press release. This is quite a good press release. I know it's boring to read our press releases. No, hit us with it. Britain looks almost normal, but the flags are different. The news is careful. Nobody says certain things out loud anymore, but everyone can feel it.

1:07:12Some way beneath the surface of ordinary life, something has gone terribly, quietly wrong. Do you know what you need to get a side hustle in? Basically trailers, because you could read a trailer. You'd be great. I wanted to be there. No, no. Which, by the way, just arrived late in life. I've never had for like decades, and suddenly this comes along. No, you could do it. I still maintain that the trailer to Jerry Seinfeld's The Comedian is one of the greatest trailers of all time. And it's just a guy in a voiceover booth doing trailer voices. And it's fantastic. Much better, in fact, than the film.

1:07:43But let's move on. Boyd, this is just for you and me. You should not listen to this. So Strictly contestants are being announced as well. We should just say about news. That's just a thing, isn't it? The news Strictly contestants. Well, I'll give you the list. Just pretend we're not here. Lacey Turner Danny Dyer Delta Goodrum Chris Appleton Cash Mercer and Will Best yeah as I say are any of them interesting no exactly my point being here so you can listen again now he's doing things on his phone of course I am not going to be watching Strictly anymore I've decided I know well because of this cast I just feel like I can't do it oh and of course the whole reboot because it's the first year without Tess and Claudia and it's over for me now I only ever watched it for Claudia agreed I'm a Tess and Claudie fan so James will be pleased to know we're not watching Strictly anymore sorry what?

1:08:33right yeah I think it's over for me yeah I think it's probably whenever it was not over for me yeah me too I'm out in protest James it's all good news now we can ignore Strictly for the foreseeable okay so that is news unless they got like you mentioned they got someone in it who's so good so interesting but it's not going to happen for me to watch it oh god what would it require Patrick Stewart we've already said this Alison Janney Patrick Stewart someone from Game of Thrones it would need to be like Like, you know, like Beth and Rip would need to be dancing together. God, if Kelly Ryan were on Strictly, I would lose my shit.

1:09:03Kelly Ryan, she could, no. No, she wouldn't. She's like a proper actress. Yeah. In America, the equivalent of Dancing with the Stars, which is the American version of Strictly, they do have some quiet... They do get good people on there. Yeah, they do get good people. But the line-up so far, I would say, is not huge. No. I think they really needed to come back with a... Their line-up needed to be bigger than ever. I mean, we're only halfway through the announcement, so... No, they're not going to get Kelly Riley, and that's the only thing that will pull me in at this point. Fair enough. Let's say Julianne Nicholson is returning for season two of Task and she's going to be playing her character from Mare of Easttown.

1:09:33Oh, thank God. The Easttown-iverse is officially cemented. So, because she remembers she was Kate Winslet's best friend in Mare of Easttown. Oh, yes, I love her. Laurie Ross. And she's going to be back as that character in season two of Task. That is brilliant news, yeah. Worlds collide. That is amazing. Yeah. That's the best news. That's pretty good news. Great news. It hasn't strictly. It is best. No, no, no, I'm with you. Strictly's over for me. Good. I feel sad, but, you know, we had a good run. That was the news announcement. It wasn't the announcement of who's in it. It was the announcement that Steph's not going to watch it anymore.

1:10:01Yeah, that was it. That was the news. Okay, we're going to move on to reviews now. And we will begin with The Crow Girl on Paramount+. And if you've been starved of comedy lately and found yourself into something to cheer you up, then this is not going to help. Because this show, which you may remember from January of last year, this is an incredibly dark and twisted crime thriller. It's adapted by Millie Thomas from the Scandi crime book of the same name by Erik Axel Sund, which is actually the nom de plume of a duo of Swedish authors. Fun fact, this was actually a trilogy when it was first released in Swedish, but it was edited into one single mammoth volume for its English language debut, the UK book release.

1:10:43Anyway, this very, very twisted show, we should say, is ostensibly about murdered men, but very quickly spirals into an incredibly bleak story of incest, is incredibly dark. We should also say that the entire show is predicated on a massive twist that happens at the end of season one. Now, there is no way we can discuss this without revealing that twist. And I suspect a lot of you have not watched The Crow Girls. All I can suggest at this point is that if you haven't seen it and you plan to see it, and you should, you skip this review and come back to it later so skip on like check the notes show notes for the time code and just skip on to the next review because we are going to give away the twist at the end of season one and it's a really good show so you probably do want to watch it are you still here?

1:11:31are you sure? okay you have been warned right for counting Crow Girls as we're about to do let us turn now to our very own Crow Girl Steph Seeland who I'm sensing that you have in fact sat down and watched as recommended the entire first season of the Crow Girl I have watched, consumed... Endured. Well, my God, it is... So dark. Oh. I almost... Do you know, I wasn't going to... I thought I was like, right, no, I've said I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it. And I thought, I'll just... I'll watch the first... I'll try and watch the first episode of season two. And I was, I would say, six minutes into that episode.

1:12:09So you watched it long enough to have the twist ruined and then went back and watched season one. But I watched six minutes of it. But James, I couldn't understand it if I hadn't... It's bewildering if you don't know what the twist is. It's absolutely... And they do like a previously on the Kroger. And I was like, that's not enough. Because also I had so many questions about Katharine Kelly. Yeah, I'm sure you did. But also, didn't that just ruin the first season for you? No, because I really, really enjoyed it. Because I did not see that twist coming at all. Should I tell you something, right?

1:12:37We should set up the plot. We should set up... For people who haven't seen it, and frankly, if you haven't seen it, you really shouldn't be listening to this, but set up the plot for us. Okay, so... From season one, go. Right, so Eve Marles' character... Yes. I'm not going to do this as well as you can. Give it a go. So she's DCI Jeanette Kilburn. She's DCI Jeanette, right? And she starts investigating several murders that have happened of boys. Yes, young men's bodies which have been dumped. They're dumped in mysterious places, almost as if they've been dumped somewhere so someone finds them.

1:13:06Yeah, put on display. Put on display, okay? she is working with a psychologist a psychiatrist who is played by Catherine Kelly okay God it's so hard Dr. Sophia Craven right Dr. Sophia Craven okay and these two Formula Lines because I watched it kind of all in one go they certainly do okay they do Formula Lines but this is all spoiler isn't it it's all season one stuff this yes the background to this is this dual as you say there's like dual chronology it's so complicated you absolutely have to watch Do you understand now what I'm saying? I spent a literal hour reading the recaps before watching season two because even having watched it all I was like I can't keep any of this straight in my head So you've got this current timeline and then you've got another timeline which is flashbacks to a young girl who is being abused by her father and has kind of a nonchalant mother who, you know she's being sexually abused and physically abused and the mother this is important to find out what happens in season two the mother is kind of standing by not really doing anything think about it you find out now i can't remember which but you find out in it you find out that the the dad is involved with um a kind of a pedophile like sex there's a pedophile ring yeah like a yeah right and so not only is he's abusing his his daughter right who becomes pregnant but pregnant um and he tells the daughter that the the child has died the child hasn't actually this is all and says, well, the child hasn't actually died.

1:14:37And when she finds out that the child hasn't died, she goes crazy. But then he kills the child. He kills the child. You're getting ahead of yourself. Oh, so it's so confusing. This has not gone well. Sorry, go. It's so confusing. There is a man in a family, and yes, he is abusing his daughter, and she gets pregnant. She has a child. He tells her the child has died, and shortly after that, it seems that she ran away. She runs away. Then he raises his, essentially, daughter slash granddaughter as his own child and begins abusing her in turn. Yeah. And that's Madeline Berkman. And then Victoria Berkman, who's the one who ran away, she essentially gets back in contact with Madeline and they're going to run away together and then it all goes horribly wrong and she gets killed and it's a whole thing.

1:15:16And then there's a whole murder and a house fire and all this shit kicks off. But the point of all this is that all the way through this, there's a discussion that Victoria Berkman is the person who is killing these young men. That is what they think. Well, certainly who's putting them on display. And Victoria Berkman is this kind of mysterious boogeyman. And what we find out at the end of season one is that Dr. Sophia Craven is Victoria Berkman. She's been her all along. I know, but there's so many layers to this. It's so hard to explain. It is very hard to unravel. She's got dissociative identity disorder.

1:15:47But this is an interesting point because this, which is a wrinkle which essentially is introduced in the second season, because in the first season, all you find out is, oh my God, you're Victoria. But we just think she's just been pretending to be this therapist. What we find out when we get in this is actually she's got a dissociative personality disorder. Yeah, and she's in scenes with herself, her younger self, and that's so complicated as well. Why the twist works so well is she's played by two different actors. It's Catherine Kelly and another actor who is, let me check, is Clara Rugar, plays Victoria.

1:16:17So her other personality is played by another actor, which is why you don't get the twist until it happens. But this second season really doubles down on the dissociative personality disorder stuff in a big way, in a way that I didn't know that it was going to. The thing, right, oh God, it's, you just have to watch season one. Don't go in cold season two. Oh, absolutely not, because it's gibberish. The thing about season two, so I watched season one, I was like, right, and to be honest, it could have ended there, and I would have been, God, this is absolutely brilliant, this is great. But then you open season two, so now we're going to get to season two.

1:16:51Yes. And there's discovery. So Eve Miles, there's a discovery of more. Oh, she's shagging Sophia Craven. I don't know if we mentioned that. So, yeah, and the second... You described it as... They're working together. Working together. Very, very closely. The second season opens exactly... Like, the morning after, the last season finishes. So it's sort of seamless. So they've slept together that night, or have they? And Victoria's just killed her dad and kidnapped her mum. Kidnapped her mum. And her mum is behind the bookcase in her house. In a secret dungeon. And then they do this thing where they have...

1:17:26Because they have... they have flashbacks then she has these they have slightly confusing flashbacks there's also scenes where she's acting with herself and you're kind of not sure whether the character of Sophia when she's reporting that Victoria's been in the house you're actually not sure whether she the dissociative personality disorder means that she truly believes that she's got so that for me was the kind of real hook of this season is that oh okay maybe maybe she isn't maybe she doesn't really know maybe she doesn't know herself although in season one you're like she fucking does know because she's the one putting it's revealed in season one she's the one putting the bodies around because she's leaving them this trail she's leaving Eve Miles' trail but Eve Miles has got absolutely she hasn't got a Scooby she's not a great detective she is terrible and she's got her own problems as well at home but it's I mean god there's a lot of there's a lot of also flashbacks of fight scenes there's so there's so many timelines in it It is confusing.

1:18:27You have to watch every single second of it. Season two doubles down on flashbacks because we explore more of Victoria Burtman's childhood and, unfortunately, a lot of the historic abuse and the extent of this child trafficking ring and all of that. So, I mean, if you thought season one was dark because of all the incest-y abuse stuff, this takes on a whole other dimension. And then there's also, because this season is about this fighting ring, which, obviously, Eve Myles' partner was part of, as well, wasn't he? Yes, Dupree Scott, who, and I cannot emphasize this enough, is not in season two.

1:19:01Right, so he's not in it at all, right? No, he pops up. He does pop up. No, he doesn't. In season two. He's not in season two at all. He literally isn't in the show anymore. He's the wrong one. He was kind of concealing all of the, you know, this fighting ring where everyone was making money, where these poor immigrants... Well, no, okay, that's not true either. He wasn't actually connected to the fighting ring at all. He was... They thought he was, but it turns out he was just getting young kids to deal drugs, which is absolutely fine. Yeah, but he was aware of it, though, wasn't he? I don't think so, no.

1:19:31Are you sure? I've watched it more recently than you. I think he was very aware of it. I spent a whole hour doing recaps. Okay, fine. I've also, do you know what, I went down quite a rabbit hole with this because I've got the book as well, so I ended up going through the book. The book, it's funny, this is a really loose adaptation of the book. The book is so bleak. Like, it's just pure nihilism and the whole story of it is just about how awful humans are. Yeah, it's a lot. The whole thing? No, to be fair, I read a lot about it and then I scanned through it and I read a bunch of chapters of it because I wanted to read key parts of it and it deviates massively.

1:20:02Well, it's a Scandi story. This is set in fucking Bristol. So it's a very different saga. The weird thing is you're always getting on about how you can't deal with this stuff and you don't want to. Now you're like, no, you're watching the show and you're reading the book. I know. I got quite obsessed with this. I think there's just something about it. And because, and I actually quite like this about the show. It leaves a lot of dangling threads here. Not as in that they're completely unresolved, but it deliberately doesn't go into detail or necessarily explain a few key things and I needed answers because I watched the whole of the second season and I needed answers which is why I went to the book.

1:20:32I'm going to say something controversial about it because I watched the season one and I really enjoyed season one and I've sort of alluded to it because I said I could have finished there and as you're saying it kind of doubles down on the flashback and it's almost too much I don't know whether season two is going to be too much for me because I've watched one of season two and I was very happy where season one ended and I liked the idea that she didn't know that Sophia was Victoria and I thought, God, this is really good and it ends, and I quite like things that end ambiguously. Well, it ends halfway through the book.

1:21:02Oh, does it? Yes. Okay, so this, I don't know, is a little bit of an assault on my senses because there was, like I said, there was the flashbacks to Victoria's, there was the flashbacks to the fight scenes and so it almost... The fight scene, I couldn't even work out what... That's what I mean, so I think it was a bit... Her sidekick was involved in a... What was he involved in? Like a fight club? No, well, he's not involved in it. But he's involved with those group of young men who are kind of asylum seeker shelters. And he's essentially setting them up with drugs and having them be drug dealers.

1:21:35So he's kind of involved adjacent, which I think where I've got confused. But they think he's involved. And it is. And one of the things I don't understand is all of this fight club stuff is like, it's very skewed. Because the book is all about children. Because this is young men being forced to fight. whereas the book is all about dead kids so I don't know quite why they've shifted it in that way and the whole thing with the Burtman family again that's all for the TV show this, the book is all about international very far reaching almost like Pizzagate level like if you believe all that conspiracy nonsense but this level like massively organised child abuse rings that's what the book is about it does feel like what I would say and I it does feel like three different shows in one three different there's almost too much.

1:22:22Almost? I don't know why you're holding back. It's fucking demented. Because I did it. No, it is demented. You're all dancing around. I've read the novel. It's halfway through. I'll hold the flashbacks to this one. I enjoyed it, though. This show. It is wild. I'm sorry to interrupt. Even the pigs are wild. Let's get to the point. Yeah. It's absolutely insane. It is nuts. It is nuts. It's gonzo TV. You're right. Right? From the first fact that, the whole pig thing that starts off with... The pig thing is crazy. horrendous multiple pig action when she discovers what's happening with these pigs it's horrendous, right?

1:22:56then you've got the incredible affair she's having with Catherine Kelly even whilst Catherine Kelly liaison is hilarious because suddenly you've got a kind of almost comedic twist when she leaves a brilliantly long message to her the next day when she runs off and it's hilarious you're like, oh this is actually really funny is it now a comedy? the darkest thing in the history of the whatever but yet they find time to be funny. Then, and I cannot emphasise enough how irritating, the whole home thing with her husband and kid. Yeah, that is a bit of a joke. Drop that shit. It's so irritating. Something's got to give with this show.

1:23:29Her behaviour is so ridiculous in those scenes. It's completely mad. It doesn't work. They don't work. Why is she blaming her husband for her being, suddenly having a lesbian affair with a mad psychologist with the most ridiculous bob in the history of TV, apart from Claudia Winkleman. and it's like why are you treating him like this? You're being horrible to him it's mad it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and those scenes are fucking terrible they should get rid of them if they're going to do series three and apparently it finishes halfway through the book No, no this second series finishes the book Okay, well you know that was ridiculous but all the other and the music I had to look it up right it's music the soundtrack by Adam Price it's like Hans Zimmer times a hundred so that's something big happens on the show and suddenly it goes, this massive loud noise.

1:24:19I can only be described as just a general noise when you have these flashbacks. Oh, and they have to emphasise, I love the fact that they have to double, as you said, they double down on the fact that Catherine Kelly is the same person as the, and so they literally show her in sequences and then they go jump to an edit to the other actress playing her in the same place. Yeah, we get it. We get it. We understand this mad twist. you don't have to remind us in the most I have to say cat-candied way possible by the way I really enjoyed it because it's so nuts it's mad it's just hilarious and Catherine Kelly's performance there's a scene where she has a new patient who comes in just like are you being creepy I don't I can't I love Catherine Kelly by the way most recently seen as Alan Partridge's girlfriend what a turn right in his recent show I love her I've interviewed she's a brilliant interviewee as well she's very funny we should get her on the show but the whole thing is just madness from start to finish and I'm kind of there for it can I ask you a question James you having seen the whole of season 2 right I think the first episode of season 2 is more mad than the whole of the would you the whole of season 1 oh without a shadow of that it was almost like I was watching one kind of show and there was a lot to that show and now they've put everything completely mad that was in that first show into the first episode of season two.

1:25:46So here's the thing. As Boyd said, I really enjoyed this. I watched all six episodes of the second season. I had a really good time with it. But season one of this was one of my favourite shows of that year. And it took itself really seriously. It was super dark. It was incredibly compelling. This almost feels like a different show. That's what I feel. Because it is so, as Boyd said, completely insane. It's like they dial it up to 11 for the finale of season one and they never turn it down. and it's just mad from end to end. But it gets so mad that even though the themes are quite dark, it almost strays into parody because it's so ridiculous.

1:26:24And the characters start becoming so ludicrous in their actions that by the end you're just like, what the fuck is happening? This is just mental. And you're struggling with the humour of that, but the subject matter is so bleak and it gets even bleaker if you can believe that. And it turns into, yeah, it really does. I think it got away from them a little bit in the second half. And I checked, and it doesn't seem like it's a different creative team, but it does feel like it takes a hard turn. It seems to me like they all gathered round for a big meeting and they went, should we just have some fun with it?

1:26:59I mean, do you know what? Season one was such a downer. Let's just go nuts. The fun twist on abuse and, you know. It feels a completely different tone. And I didn't want to say parody, but there are lines in this where they walk past the pigs and they go, they just say things like, oh, we're going to have to get rid of them. Why? Are you a vegetarian? And it's just... The more I think about it, moments are coming back to me, about the first episode. There's the scene where she goes back to this station and her boss is being incredibly nice to her and she suddenly goes, everyone's like being really oral to her, by this massive, massive police station, like thousands of people working there.

1:27:34And she suddenly goes, leave me the fuck alone If you're going to have a go at me, just do it fucking now. It's just like swearing at them all. Yeah, say it to my face. It's hilarious. I do need to single out one person, which is Victoria Hamilton, who I think is great as an actor. She plays the chief superintendent, Verity Pound, and that character is the maddest of them all because her relationship with Jeanette makes no sense at all. She's in charge, but then she's conspiring. She goes from conspiring with her and then being a shoulder to the ground to being incredibly abusive to then just being insane to then crying on her shoulder.

1:28:09And I'm like, I do not understand what is happening with that character. But none of them are consistent. None of the characters have any consistency whatsoever. None of them make sense. Even from Eve Miles, they're all mad. Yeah, Eve Miles, she's talking about the relationship with her husband, right? So there's a scene where her husband's just saying, where are you going? We were supposed to have dinner. And she screams at him, someone's been murdered. And you're like, and she's like, do you understand that? And you're like, Whoa, they. In fairness, he is quite passive-aggressive. Yeah, but I mean, he doesn't have it right to be.

1:28:40And then there's other, talking of parody, there's other scenes where, you know, Catherine Kelly's in her house, and we know she's locked her mum behind the bookcase, right? And then she's standing there like this, and there's just tapping, and you're meant to think, oh, is the mum getting out? And there's just, like, tapping, and then the scene is just her going... Yeah, by the way, Eve Miles as well has to do a lot of like reaction shots, like such long, when the whole pig thing happens, she's like, the camera follows her. I think it's like one shot, one second shot. And it's just on her face, kind of like looking at all these fucking mad pigs, these red pigs.

1:29:19What's happened to them? Why are they so, what's gone on? And it takes ages to get to the realisation of what has been happening with them. And like those moments are just so over the top. It's bonkers. It's absolutely bonkers. I'm so glad that you've confirmed what I thought had happened in that. Because I think season one is a different show. It's so good, season one is. No, it is really good, and it's well worth watching. But also, I'd say, if you watch season one and you don't watch season two, you still feel satisfied. I don't know that you do, because you only get half the story. I think you literally need to, although, to a certain extent, what season two covers almost feels like a separate thing, to be honest.

1:29:56That's what I mean. It's a continuation of it, but it's such a pivot that it almost does feel like a different show. And I mean that not just tonally, but in terms of the way the plot goes as well. So you could, but I feel like if you watch season one, you're going to want to see how this story ends. But strap in, because... But what are we waiting for? Are we waiting for Jeanette to find out that Sophia is... A little bit of that. I think that's what you want to know. But also they haven't solved the whole dead bodies thing. The whole crime at the heart of this whole story has not been solved.

1:30:26it's just there's also there's a one of the flashback scenes which is kind of a flashback to a sexual encounter early on is shot with almost like it's a play almost like it's on stage with those kind of flashing red lights and things on the bed do you know which scene I'm talking about that is just like what is that about even the visuals are quite weird yeah the visual style of it is quite odd and it's quite sort of like drained of colour it's a flat palette but they didn't have that in season one to that extent it was just I was just thinking about the plot thing. You know, the whole murder, which is at the crux of...

1:31:00They do a little bit, just kind of forgets about that. Yeah. It almost feels like, oh, yeah, we don't really care about that anymore. We've now moved on to this crazy thing that we're going to do, and we're not going to worry about the whole reason you started watching the show. So, yeah, it's definitely not up to the standard of the first season. But as I say, I quite enjoyed watching it. It might be more fun, though. Well, it's fun, but it is, as I say, it's also really upsetting and bleak as well. so it's just anyway okay well I did as I was told you did and I enjoyed it but yeah this is definitely insane this begins on Paramount Plus on I want to say the 20th yeah today Monday of July yeah yeah Pro God season 2 enjoy right next we move on to our second show and this is Ride or Die on Prime Video and this is Hannah Waddingham and Octavia Spencer as lifelong besties except while Spencer's Debbie is a politician's wife Waddingham's Judith is secretly a professional killer.

1:31:59And wouldn't you know it, but their professional lives kind of collide to hilarious effect. Boydie, you are no stranger to the life of an international contract killer. What did you think of Ride or Die? Well, it starts off as this kind of like, it feels like it's trying to be Jane Bond because you've got this situation where she's trying to assassinate this guy and there is kind of ski lodge. ski resort and she's supposed to like kill him and then but she's being told by her boss whoever she works for to take the shot which by the way is very reminiscent of the opening of Skyfall when Judy Dench is telling he's being told to take the shot basically take the shot take the shot and then not only that but to add to the Bond theme that I felt like the opening sequence was a tribute to James Bond the music is just exactly like a Bond soundtrack so I was like this is a deliberate you know attempt to do to come up with a female James Bond and by the way, this is on MGM.

1:32:56This is an MGM production for Prime Video and MGM, of course, own James Bond now. So the whole thing, I was like, is this deliberate? I actually went to the point of Googling to see if there was any connection. There isn't at all. But the opening sequence of exploring her job, which is to be a secret assassin, is very Bond-like. And there's even a ski chase. So there's, on Her Majesty's Secret Service and various other Bond films, when there's been ski chases. The whole thing, I'll stop talking about James Bond in a minute, honestly. because then you meet Octavia Spencer's character who's in this loveless marriage, or at least from the end of her awful, awful husband, played by Jamie Parker, who is an absolute bellend of the highest order and is an MP, a British MP.

1:33:35And it's very odd. You've got a British MP married to this American who does all of... She kind of runs his life for him and he's incredibly ungrateful. And she's best mates with Hannah Waddingham's Judith, who she doesn't know yet until it's revealed in the opening episode is this secret assassin do you know what if you think about shows like Killing Eve and what was the secret assassin show where the male and female partner which is the Brad Pitt film Mr and Mrs Smith the idea of a secret assassin I mean we've seen lots of them it's not very original and I have to say in this version of that it felt very I'm going to use the C words which I've used far too often already Teddy contrived not contrived what a bunch of contrives I watched this and I thought I could see the meeting or I could read the emails where they're being pitched hey Hannah Waddingham you know from Ted Lasso who is brilliant at everything and has become a superstar since Ted Lasso and everyone realised she's a brilliant she can do anything she can sing she can dance she can play a top secret assassin let's get Hannah and let's get Octavia Spencer together and they're best mates, but one doesn't know the other is secretly an assassin.

1:34:49And it's going to be amazing, right? And they're like, actually, it's not amazing. Unlike Killing Eve, you haven't given them enough quality dialogue and witty things to say. And the repartee is very, very forced. There's a bit where Hannah Waddington, Hannah Waddington, Hannah, goes round to Octavia's house. And Octavia's having a book club. And by the way, how tired is it to have a book club where the big thing probably is she hasn't read the book yet? I mean, we've seen that many times before as well. She goes around, and they do this weird, like, dance together. Did you notice that bit? There's lots of bad dancing going on, by the way.

1:35:25In the opening scene at the ski chalet, there's some bad dancing. Then there's this bad dancing, which is the two of them, establishing how kooky they are together. And then there's more bad dancing later, when she has to go and assassinate someone else. Anyway, it's all annoying. It's just too... It just smacks of a project that's been put together by executives and agents. You know what I mean? They all say, oh yeah, wouldn't it be great if she's doing this, she's doing that. I wasn't convinced for one second that any of this was actually happening. It's just, and the whole James Bond tribute was sweet in my opinion.

1:35:56That's what was happening, but it didn't really go anywhere. And I just don't care about anyone, any of them. And they're fine. They're not, you know, they're not annoying. They're not unlikable, but they're not particularly interesting either. And it almost feels, again, it feels like one, yeah, it feels like a project rather than an actual organic thing, organic story with organic characters. Do you know what I mean? No, not at all. In no way whatsoever do I see what you're saying. Do you know what I think your problem with this is? This is your regular complaint, isn't it? Is this going to be another example of, boy, gets it wrong with the first episode and then has to do a 180?

1:36:30I think your issue with this is that you're not a woman. And I'll tell you why this speaks for women. I lapped this up. I absolutely love this show. First off, I've got a whole list of reasons I love it. Okay, let's just say, my God, Hannah Waddingham, she looks, she looks, and it's not about looks, but my God, that woman looks sensational. She is hot as hell, right? She is hot as hell. She's owning every scene. She looks amazing. I love the idea that these girls have got a 29-year friendship. They're best friends. They love, they are down. They are ride or dies. They're down for each other. And they're so different.

1:37:08but Hannah Wardingham's character will do anything for Octavia Spencer. You made mention of the fact that you didn't think the dialogue was good. I loved the dialogue. I thought there were some really funny things in it. And here's where I think the problem with you not being a woman is. There's so many moments in it where I thought, oh my God. And I'm a woman of a certain age, so I was like, that is my life. Just the little observations. There's dialogue about her husband being like, honey do you do you know where the nasal spray is and my life is basically two people in my house going have you seen my where's my when was the last time you saw that like those consequences that kind of observation i loved i loved for women of the fact that she is that octavia spencer's character has made this man and he's a complete donut but she has been the the force behind it and actually she's the one with all the power i love the fact that she's just behind the scenes getting you know she's actually integral to his career and she's buying things from from auctions to get like the transport bill all of those little notes i really really enjoyed the fact hannah wadingham i love the whole james bond and i'm a big james bond fan loved all that element there's nice touches where they try and get her fired this is not a spoiler i think it happens within the first 20 minutes like they try she's she likes to go her own way but they try and get her fire and there's a scene where a much younger dipstick right man by the sorry to interrupt but i'm bewildered by the fact that the whole thing operates run by like a 20 year old this is the absolute point about this show which i really loved all the male characters are donuts are donuts and all the female characters are fantastic and i really really love that that It's true for all the male characters in this.

1:38:58So she's got this young guy who's actually like a little bit intimidated by her and he's trying to fire her. And there's a great scene in a restaurant where she's like, you know, tell me, I know how many people are here to try and kind of take me out if anything goes wrong. And even when she walks out, she says to the man at the bar, you know, oh, for God's sake. And he's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But then there's another brilliant scene where she talks about, and she's in that scene where she says, she gets great lines where he's like, like oh yeah we think you know we're gonna go with poison and she's like that's a cowards game where's the showmanship and she's fucking balls deep in this whole assassin thing and i love it about this it's it's really this is a great character and i think she plays so well with octavia spencer's character i think i i totally believe their friendship but you know why that's because you're not a woman and you don't have a friendship with another woman i accept the fact i'm not a woman um but for example like i would if you compare this to something like lucky right where there's a similar idea of roles played by women in it, which would traditionally be played by men.

1:39:59We talked about this in the interview with her. It was so brilliantly done. I think this is kind of trying to do a similar thing, saying, oh, yes, this professional assassin normally... And by the way, of course, we've had Keeley Hawes doing the exact same thing. And I think the first two episodes of that show, was it called The Assassin? It may have been, was so much better than this. So I accept the fact that I might have a different take on it as a man. but I really lap up loads of shows where traditional roles played by men are played by women. I just think in this case, I didn't buy The Friendship at all.

1:40:30Right. And I didn't buy, and it felt like they were getting Hannah Boddingham to do this thing and they hadn't created a proper character for it. That's my complaint. I think your comparisons are completely moot points because this is not comparable with those kinds of shows. This is not a show that's taken itself seriously. Those shows are serious shows. This is not taking itself seriously. Oh, The Assassin's been taking itself seriously. this is a fun kind of more of a Black Doves I'll give you another one Black Doves that's not in the same league no I know but that's what this is in the same ballpark and it's just failing to be anywhere near as witty or clever as shows like that I don't agree I do think it's witty I do think it's witty I do think it's clever I love I love the interplay between those two characters and it gets better as well yes it does I think there's one bit of these play in the car when they're in the car to go with I found excruciating no I love the whole thing and also even little notes like Hannah Waddingham is listening to a podcast and it goes on the podcast and the podcast is just called We Solve Crimes Podcast it makes it's so knowing about what people think women are like now you know and yeah I am that woman I do listen to lots of crime podcasts but I loved all of those it's not it's not the same I don't believe it is it's a secret assassin we're going to have to turn to James for the casting vote I think it's brilliantly observed I love you know even the fact it's got that brilliant Robin song in that she dances to on the dozer.

1:41:49I just, I really, really enjoyed it. I think it's incredibly enjoyable. That's interesting. I can't work out if James has got that face on where you can't tell which way he's going to go. I'm just enjoying this. But I also love the fact that these are older actresses, they're older women playing this. I'm going to call time on this discussion for the sole reason that we're going to be kicked out of the studio in four minutes and we have another show to review. So all I'm going to say is I fall somewhere between the two of you in that I think Steph's right in that this isn't any of the shows you mentioned which are more prestige-y, more premium-type things.

1:42:19What this is to me is this is like a Chris Tucker and like an Owen Wilson kind of buddy comedy film. It's that tonality, if you were to... Like, it's a caper. It's a romp. It doesn't take itself any way seriously. It is full-on comedy with action rather than an action show with comedy. And so I think you kind of have to roll with that a little bit. That is not where I live, and it's not generally what I enjoy. But actually, I expected this to be hateful. And actually, I know genuinely I did because it's not my sort of thing. But I was like, actually, do you know what? It's actually pretty good.

1:42:54And for what it does, I found it quite charming. I'm not probably going to watch any more of it, but I actually think it does what it sets out to do quite well. I think Octavia Spencer and Hannah Waddingham are both great in it. I think it does what it sets out to do. I'm just not sure that that's something that I'm looking for. Do you know what I mean? Because I like things to take themselves a little bit more seriously, but that's not what it tries to do. And that's fine. And that's great. but it's comedy first I think action second my official statement to you Boyd is no no no no okay because I think Boyd that James agrees with me I think he does agree more with you than me that's fine I did take against it yeah you have really taken against it yeah I have more than I expected you've gone too harsh because I like everyone involved and I think doesn't sound like it three minutes do we have to get that to you we're going to take this off there finally this week in literally three minutes we have The Hawk on Netflix this is a PGA approved golf comedy this is yet another Wilson brother pick up the clubs on television but here it's Luke not Owen and he's here just the nemesis to the hero of this show who is Lonnie the Hawk Hawkins played by Will Ferrell he's a washed up pro golfer looking to reclaim his glory oh god is this a hole in one or indeed an over par shank that bounces off a tree flies over the rough and ends up in the middle of a lake Steph if you love Will Ferrell then you will love this show okay so Will Ferrell's best film without a doubt is Talladega Nights I love it when he approaches anything to do with any kind of sport yeah there's a hilarious scene where he lip syncs to Sisko's Thong song which I enjoyed this is kind of the first time that he's done a TV show other than he did The Shrink Next Door but this is the first time because he's exec produced he's like exec produced succession dead to me eastbound and down drunk history which anything you'd think that he would yeah thoroughly enjoy it Molly Shannon's in it as his ex-wife I mean if you watched any of the coverage when Meghan and Harry got married that they did as their partnership together.

1:44:44Those two are just dynamite together. And I loved it. And my favourite line in it was, you haven't been on tour for seven years, you dickless cunt. There we go. Well, there we go. I believe she was talking to you, Boydie. This is one of the most aggressively and offensively unfunny TV comedies I've ever seen. I cannot begin to describe it. And I like Will Ferrell. I like Molly Shannon. What the actual fuck were they doing with this unbelievably lazy, tired, unfunny... It doesn't feel like anything new. There's nothing funny about it. Nothing new? Yeah. We've already got fucking Happy Gilmore and Happy Gilmore 2, which are masterpieces.

1:45:27If we didn't have Happy Gilmore... This sums up everything wrong with the American improvised comedy films and TV shows. Most of it seem to be directed by David Gordon Green, by the way, in a weird play. And visually, it's all over the place. and there's nothing to it. And it's awful. It's terrible. He's so unfunny. Will Ferrell in unfunny mode is awful. I love him dearly. I'd rather see him on a chat show for five hours than in this terrible, awful vehicle for his talent. I wouldn't say it's unfunny. I'm enjoying that this is a big face-off. I wouldn't say it's unfunny. Ride or die, fine. But I'm amazed you like this.

1:46:03This is extraordinarily bad. I could watch Will Ferrell literally doing painting events. I would literally rather watch him painting events than being this monstrously unfunny. I totally agree with you. Happy Gilmore is incredible. It's an absolute masterpiece, right? We all believe that, okay? I'm sure we all do. But it's not... If you like Will Ferrell, you'll like it, I think. I don't agree. I like Will Ferrell. I hated this. You hated it? It was awful. It's terrible. He's not funny for one second. It's not him at his best. That is the understatement of the year. It's not. I agree with you.

1:46:33It's not him at his best, but there are moments in it. It's even... He did that Sherlock... He did his own Sherlock film, didn't he, with Steve Green. this is even worse than that and that is one of the worst ones No, that is not good This has been in development for three years It's had quite a difficult development process by all accounts I agree with Boyd 100 % I hated every second of this I think saying hated every second I really did But then equally I am not a Will Ferrell fan on any level I do not like him You're getting your membership to his fan club rescinded You're out I think he knows that he's fucked this one up How many did you watch?

1:47:10I couldn't watch beyond the first one. Well, then that's on you. Oh, she's playing a Trump card. Oh, no. No, I'm sorry. Apparently it's genius for episode two onwards. Absolutely not. I'm not saying it's the best thing ever. Far, far from it. And I'm not saying it's a him at his best, but it's not completely without merit. It's not completely... Hawk, then, on Netflix, which is, as you've heard, completely without merit and is already airing on the Netflix. And we should say that Ride or Die is already airing on the Prime. On the Prime video. Yes, it is. I'm not sure if we mentioned that. Anyway, that is all we've got time for.

1:47:41The legions are banging down the doors. They're just wheeling up a giant wooden horse. I don't know quite what that means. But that is it for this week's podcast. If you would like to follow us on social media, really, it's only Instagram, because really, as we've said on Pilot Plus, only Boyd, Bots and Nazis are on Twitter. So, please follow us on the Instagram. Sometimes all three. Or sometimes all three in one. And if you'd like to send in your messages, it is postbag at pilotTVpod.com. Next week, on next week's show. I mean, I don't even know what we're doing next week. What is happening? We've got President Curtis and HBO Max, Gamora's Bat, we probably won't end up doing that.

1:48:14I don't know what's going on next week. Lioness returns very soon, so I do need to catch up on my stuff there. And on Pilot Plus this week, we are either going to do Star Trek Strange New Worlds, the final season, which I'm very excited about, or the sudden surprise appearance of the Undeclared War. That's it, the Undeclared War season two, which I enjoy season one of that. So, one of two. Anyway, we're done. Peg is Star Trek. Boydie and Steph need to have a fist fight, so we're going to break this up, and we're going to take this whole thing outside. Pilot out.