The Diplomat Season 3 spoiler discussion

0:07Welcome to Pilot Plus and this our spoiler chat for The Diplomat Season 3. And speaking of diplomacy, I should diplomatically say that while I am indeed joined by Pilot TV's very own ambassador to the famoses, Boyd Hilton, I am not, however, not joined by Kay, because she hasn't finished the season yet. Isn't that right, Boydy? Lazy, yeah. Laziness and just couldn't be asked. Just fundamental lack of professionalism, really, isn't it? Lack of professionalism. I'm just going to love this chat. She'll never listen to it, it's fine. But yeah, she's only got to past episode two or something. I don't understand how that's possible.

0:45I agree. Although, as I mentioned before, when I first got this season delivered to our wonderful Netflix accounts, preview screening I watched the first six I didn't realise they were right this is an unorthodox finale the ending I mean it does end they like a cliffhanger they do love a cliffhanger so it was feasible that it could have ended as episode six ends but yeah then I watched the last two and that made more sense I just find it so addictive I genuinely don't know how she manages to stop spectacularly addictive I think it's the most addictive on running ongoing continuing drama on television.

1:25I agree. Even more than Slow Horses. I love Slow Horses. It has a moorishness. Slow Horses, you just want to spend more time with those characters. It's really moorish. It's like eating a bag of sweets. You can't stop until you get the book. Which I can't do at the moment. So I have the diplomat instead of sugar. Yeah, it is. Even when it takes a bit of a dip, which I think it does a little bit in this season. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. It gets a bit bogged down in the whole submarine slash the scandal of that ship thing. Yes. The whole thing that was... Is it the USS...

2:05No, HMS Courageous, isn't it? The HMS Courageous scandal, which was deployed last season, and then spun out with ramifications. Yes. Times 10. And some of that stuff... When that stuff plays out, it gets really complicated. who's responsible and who's responsible and they're lying about it and then they're and then the submarine with the nuclear thing in it arrives as well as like another MacGuffin type thing it's a little bit maritime isn't it yeah it gets a bit but you know yeah it's a bit like I just feel like that whole story which the storyline brilliantly I know I'm already getting into it the storyline completely plays out and has ramifications for the whole show and all the main characters which is really clever on the part of the people who write it.

2:56But equally, I felt it gets a bit repetitive, slightly, that storyline. I don't know what the answer is. And even then, that's why I started saying, even when it does get a bit repetitive, it's still incredibly entertaining. It is, yes. Spectacularly, I just hit the mic. You did. That's fine. You hit the mic with excitement. It's still incredibly entertaining. I should probably jump in for those of you who don't know. And of course, if you don't know, you probably should watch the show before listening to a spoiler special about it, bar. This is obviously the Diplomites, the Netflix series from Deborah Kahn, former West Wing and Homeland writer Deborah Kahn.

3:28And it has Kerry Russell as the US ambassador to the UK. This is the third season and we pick up, as is traditional, where season two ended. So the president is dead. Alison Janney's maverick VP, Grace Benn, is now sitting the Iron Throne. At least that's my understanding of how the presidency works these days. So, there was a lot of running of Secret Service agents, which obviously put Kay off completely. Yeah. But here's an interesting fact that I found out. When Deborah Kahn was running the writer's room, because she can write, obviously, all the episodes, but when she was running the show for season one, the last two episodes, episodes seven and eight, were originally going to be the whole of season two.

4:05So, basically, she had an idea of where she wanted to get at the end of the first season, and it was to the end of season two. But she found that was too much plot for those eight episodes. So, the last two episodes, they ended up doing a different ending for season one and the last two episodes of season one became the whole of season two which is all the Grace Penn stuff. Oh, okay. Which I thought was quite interesting because it was a really fun second season. Even in season two, Grace Penn doesn't show up until quite late on though, does she? Oh, you're right. It's not straight away. It's definitely not in the straight away.

4:35Because you've got the fallout of, I guess, what was then their ending to season one which was a car bomb, didn't you? Yeah. And then Alice and Janney parachutes in. Yeah, I remember thinking, oh, why isn't she in the show yet? Because it was obviously a big deal. It's about halfway, isn't it? It's something like that. At least, if not more than halfway. Because Bear and Wynne's only six episodes, so I guess it's about three, about three in. Okay, even then, even if she does pop up halfway, even then, like, you don't get a full-on just kind of version of her character. You don't get until even later.

5:03I think she kind of dominates the end of season two. Well, because when you start to realise things, isn't it? Because it's the revelation that she's behind the false flag attack on the ship. Because initially, it's just like, she's a bit salty because Kerry Russell's trying to take her job. but understanding they have this weird kind of frenemy thing where she's like you're trying to do my job yeah I kind of am and she's like well okay well my job is kind of over anyway so that's fine so then she's almost helping her almost grooming her to be her successor and then the false flag thing comes out and what I liked about that I know what we're clearly doing now is having a spoiler for season two but you know bear with us was when they had that big discussion and she takes Kerry Rustin through it she draws she goes to the map she starts drawing on the map and she's basically saying you're so fucking naive the reason I did it is for all of these reasons and what I really love about this show and Deborah Kahn's talked about this and I think it's something they learned on the West Wing is that rather than presenting a clear cut if you will straw man argument like here's a political situation this is the good side and this is the bad side they're always ambiguous like she'll present you with a political situation and a clear villain and then you'll see it from the villain's point of view and then you're like oh actually it's a lot naughtier because the real politic of this is bad like obviously false flag attack on British ships I think we can all agree not a good thing and then her point is though the safety of the world depends on this submarine base staying open.

6:19Is that true? Is it not? I don't know, but it certainly made me question things. Yeah, it's clever in that sense of... I mean, this season, even more than season two, season three, which we can move on to. Yes, since that's why we're here. Yeah, even more so, I think, they have debates about the politics of America itself, which is really interesting. And also, this is the first season of The Diplomat to come out in the Trump 2.0 era. Yes. And was obviously written a long time before then, because it's like how many years of production it's in. Yeah. So, when it comes to the big crisis scenes, and everyone's at the height of their power, paranoia, whatever, they do have big discussions, big comments are made about the history of American interventionism.

7:09And they debate. in a quieter and often I mean as you're alluding to if it is indeed an illusion if that's the right word or indeed a reference of whatever to season two in season three the debates are even are even handed but the even handedness doesn't come across as being woolly liberal bullshit as I think sometimes in the West Wing they did yeah well the West Wing is pure fantasy right and it's pure fantasy and it's liberal fantasy yeah there's no hiding that shows politics Whereas this, I think, very cleverly, does make you question who's right and who's wrong. Even down to American interventionism.

7:48There's a bit where the president, she says, no matter what we do, they still come back to us asking for help. And all that kind of stuff. And so there are logical arguments on all sides for everyone's opinion on what should and shouldn't happen politically when it comes to all the events in that season. and the introduction of Aidan Turner's character, particularly. Callum. Hot Callum. Hot Callum. Is really interesting because he's kind of like right at the core of the whole thing. Yeah. Handily. Because what is he? He's like a political fixer, isn't he? Like he's not, like he's connected to the foreign office, he's connected to a number of things.

8:28I don't know what his exact portfolio is. Isn't he in the end, he is like a spook. He is kind of a spy, isn't he? But he, because he makes, he kind of makes fun of the, of being called a spy. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what he is, but it's just where his reporting lines are. I feel a bit fuzzy, deliberately. Isn't he, in the end, just part of MI5 or 6? It would be 6, wouldn't it? Yeah. I genuinely don't remember. Yeah, no, you're right, yeah. But... I was distracted by his hotness, clearly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in terms of what he finds out and the intelligence that he spreads to his lover, particularly.

9:09the ambassador, it all adds to the debate. It all adds to the political debate and adds to the kind of excitement of the show and the plotting of the show as well. So, yeah. Yes, it is brilliantly clever in its political discussions, I think. Because all of this, you know, it all kind of, this entire show so far, three seasons in, it's still, it's quite a simple setup, isn't it? There's this attack on this ship, this sort of, quote-unquote, terrorist attack, and then everything since then have been dominoes falling. And even in this season, when they decide to blame it on the former president, and then Rory Kinnear, glorious Rory Kinnear, who is amazing, goes completely maverick at the press conference.

9:50Rory Kinnear's character, so he plays the British Prime Minister. Nicol Trowbridge, amazing. He plays the British Prime Minister, Trowbridge. And what's interesting about him is more, and this has come out more and more, and particularly feels like this has emerged this season, he's an absolute egomaniac psychopath. figure, authoritarian figure. And he's the Donald Trump figure. I posit. Yeah, he is quite Trumpian. He's very Trumpian. He has no censor. He does not stop. He says stuff in the moment without checking with anyone where he should. I think he's completely like the substitute for Trump.

10:27That they've cleverly done to avoid accusations that, you know, the president could have been like that, right? But no, no, no, no. they've got this crazy British son of a bitch who is completely off the rails. And by the way, has the most startling moment, you know what I'm going to refer to? In the whole season three. Do you remember what that is? Is it the shagging moment? Oh my God, it's the shagging moment. And there's no warning for it. Suddenly, cut to Rory Kinnear's ass, bouncing up and down, as he has sex with his wife who says, what is it? She says something like, more emphatic or something like that.

11:04That is 100 % how Americans see British people having sex. That's that scene in a nutshell. That whole moment, the timing of it is genius. That's what makes this show so clever. Because other shows would have, I don't know, had a montage. Because there's a whole thing about everyone shagging each other in checkers, which is hilarious. And some shows would have done a cheesy montage of that, I think, to make the point they're making, which is that everyone's decided they're all away from their homes. It's a time to have sex with each other. but the way they do it was just fantastic that cut honestly that cut to him shagging with his bum bouncing up and down is legendary that genuinely was genius I just tapped the phone you have I can get very excited the whole home secretary thing foreign secretary foreign secretary yeah David Yassi obviously has the foreign secretary that kind of it was weird because we've been building up to that for essentially now two and a bit seasons and then you get that moment at the embassy I think it's the embassy or wherever they are at that particular point where they're in the office.

12:04And it all goes a bit pear-shaped. And then we get that, it's like a six-month time jump, during which time he's essentially got engaged and she's now shagging hot spook. Aidan Turner, yeah. There's a very interesting thing about her sexuality and her kind of sense of her own self, without wanting to sound true. Or lack of awareness of it. Yeah, in season three. I mean, she becomes a much more, shall we say, I'm trying not to use a judgmental word, but she's shagging a lot. Yeah, fair play to her. But also using her sexuality, because there's a whole thing where she's like, you need to talk to Nicol because he fancies you.

12:43I thought that was quite an interesting wrinkle, and she's quite uncomfortable with it initially. And also, they have the whole back, so they address her feminism, if you like, and her feeling that sometimes she has historically kind of fallen at the feet of powerful men. Yeah. And so that flashback from what episode two... Yeah, yeah. It might be in the first one, I think. But yeah, where you see her, and this is when Hal is essentially the ambassador. Yeah. And she's, I think, station chief. Yeah, she's enthralled to him. Right, absolutely. And what I thought was interesting was, in the final episode, I think, when she kind of suddenly decides that what she's been doing has been wrong, shagging all these people, even with the, even with, though she does have expressed permission within the rules of their new relationship, such as it is, she still gets this, suddenly gives into him and apologizes and kind of renounces everything she's done.

13:42And I was like, oh no, this is terrible. And I couldn't believe, I actually couldn't believe Kerry Russell allowed that, that kind of, that moment to happen because I thought it kind of betrays her own strength as a sexual, unashamedly sexual, unapologetically sexual woman who doesn't want to be enthralled to the men. Then suddenly she seems enthralled to the men, but I think what happens right at the end of that final episode... Undo's it all. Undo's it all, thank God. But that moment, which again, I didn't love it, but I kind of get it was, she was starting to see that they're the A-team. The two of them together can do absolutely anything.

14:19When they pull that manoeuvre, what was it called the run it dome manoeuvre so it's like suggests to Trowbridge they're going to pour the concrete on the nuke like she realises that the two of them they have a shorthand they have a communication that those two can do anything together they're an unstoppable team and I think she realises that she doesn't want to lose that and she maybe realises that there's more to her marriage she'd be maybe overlooking things so she was like do I want to be having passionate hot monkey sex in the MOD shower with Aidan Turner possibly but actually maybe there's something more here she wants to give her marriage another go So she was kind of almost begging him to take her back, which felt a little bit...

14:54I didn't love that. That didn't really work for me. But again, obviously, it sets up this huge betrayal that while he may not be, to quote Bradley Whitford, productive with the president, they are clearly thick as thieves and embroiled in all kinds of serious shit, which apparently now is stealing doomsday weapons called the Poseidon. The Poseidon. Yes. Are we supposed to think that they are shagging? No, I don't think so. What, you mean definitely not? I don't think so. I think it's ambiguous. You think? I think so. I don't, see, I mean, maybe I'm horribly naive, but I didn't think that it was anything sexual going on.

15:30I think Todd, or Bradley Whipfield, I think he's jealous because Grace has a new confidant and she's only telling things to Hal and they're working very closely together. But I think she, I think Grace is finding almost what Kate is finding, that working with Hal enables her to get things done because they're a very powerful team. Because he's very smart, he's very savvy. He's an absolute maverick as well and just doesn't give a shit and comes up with unorthodox, out-of-the-box solutions and the two of them are concocting all of these schemes together. So I think it's maybe, certainly in my possibly naive mind, a very productive working relationship rather than a hanky-panky one.

16:04I thought they were hinting that it could actually be more because when they're showing all those still shots when the photographer's taking pictures of them at the doorway, there's one or two of them where they're looking very intimate. And I thought that was a deliberate move. Is it intimate or conspiratorial? Well, it's ambiguous. I think, I thought they were definitely intending us to think that it's possible that actually there was something going on. Okay. Sexually between them. And I think that will be an element of season four. Well, possibly. I mean, God knows, you know, he certainly couldn't, she couldn't really call him out over it.

16:42Because he definitely implied it, that was the first thing he implied when they're standing there together, they're watching the two of them, right, in the doorway being photographed. He's definitely like saying to her, it's definitely like a twist, right? It was definitely meant to be a end of season twist that, oh my God, maybe these two are getting too close and it is something sexual. And then I think he, then she discovers that they've concocted this outrageous plan together to remove the Poseidon, right? Yeah, they've nicked it. And that is another twist. that is a twist as well making you think that the previous emotional romantic twist isn't a thing but still might be so I just thought it was I watched it two or three times to be honest because I wasn't clear in my head what they're intending but I think the whole thing has an ambiguity to it that it's deliberate because I thought it was just escalation where Todd is like oh look at them they're conspiring they're clearly fucking and she's like oh no and in her head she's like oh no it's so much worse than that they're not fucking what they're actually doing is potentially causing a massive international incident.

17:48Well, yeah, but it could be both. And I think there's a whole theme of this series. I mean, you talk about playing a game of hide the missile, but this is a very different type of one. Steady. Oh, my God. Steady. But I thought one of the whole themes of this season is what these most powerful people in the world get up to in their private lives. Yeah. And it's always been a big element of the show, right from the start. Do you remember when they were shagging in the bushes? Oh, yeah, 100%. In season one. But much more now, even when, you know, And that, frankly, almost unbearable scene where the president and the first gentleman are in bed together, and he's, like, nosing up to her breasts.

18:26And it's like, oh, my God. And they end up, like, and the guy comes in, the Secret Service person comes in because they think she's being attacked. That seems like, oh, I'm not sure if we need that. I mean, I know it's like, and it's very much like, oh, my God, can you imagine if the West Wing had been like this? Sexy West Wing. Sexy West Wing. And there's loads of that with her, you know, I mean, basically, shagging both the foreign secretary, the British foreign secretary, and then the British spy, one of the most important British espionage agents in the world, and not worrying too much about the ramifications, is an interesting element of this season, I think.

19:05And again, I think it puts that, it's constantly asking, is it right, or shall we morally judge her for her choices? you know, because she's so brilliant and charming and clever and funny and all of that. And we're kind of totally rooting for her all the way. But then when the implications of her shagging the spy, shagging Adrian Turner, come out, you're like, oh, she probably should have thought about that a bit more. It's funny, so weirdly. But I just think that's like, they're throwing that out there as being an issue to discuss. It's probably provocative. I didn't see any, I certainly didn't feel any judgment for her because I like the fact that her character, because she's very ill-suited to being an ambassador in some ways because diplomacy isn't her thing.

19:46Like, she's CIA through and through. Like, she sees a problem. She sees a nail, she reaches for a hammer. Like, that's kind of the way she does things. And so, you know, she's very, she's like, I'm not with my husband, this guy's hot? Absolutely, show me to the MOD showers, you know. And I was like, that's absolutely fine. I think it's, like, you do get that bit where, certainly when they're out, is it a checkers where they're in the bedroom? And he's like, where do you shag him? Are you going to shag him in here? And she's like, no, you know, I'm capable of not doing that while we're here. And then she gets really upset, And he has that hangdog thing.

20:16I mean, he's being quite passive-aggressive, but also he clearly still loves her. Yeah. And he's obviously finding this whole transition very, very difficult. But then equally, the thing we kind of haven't even touched on is the fact that this entire show was predicated on the idea that she was being groomed to be vice president. Yeah. And then at the 11th hour, suddenly, Oh, that whole thing. Grace turns and picks him instead. Yeah. And that whole twist is genius. Yeah, that's brilliant. Because some of my favorite moments of the whole thing so far she's furious that she's been overlooked and partly from her own feminist point of view and that's totally right that's what spurs isn't it the flashbacks in a way is that she's kind of thinking back to when and she kind of feels in a way that Howell's betrayed her even though what's he supposed to do I mean really but all of that was brilliantly done I thought and he is fantastic oh he's amazing and he obviously campaigns but he goes in there and says she's your man she's the one for this job he does that so well but then his resentment and kind of fury in a way that she then takes that as an opportunity to go and shack people left, right, centre well, it's two people his fury about that is brilliantly done as well he gets really, really pissed off with her well, there's betrayal, isn't there?

21:27because she uses that special you know because she's having difficulty getting access to her husband because his staff is keeping her away and then she uses the code word to get access to him and he's like this, this is why you're bothering me and I think he's very happy to have that closeness to be that team but he's like I think from his perspective just like, well, we're either together or we're not. And if we're not, then this isn't our relationship. And so I think she's maybe trying to have it both ways. Oh, completely, yeah. And then there's another moment, isn't there, later on where she can't get him as well when they're all in the glassy...

21:58Oh, yeah, absolutely. When she's become persona non grata and she strips off and jumps into the swimming pool. Which is genius again. That episode, I thought, was so... I think this show is now... I think it's gone beyond gourmet bug. I think it's just gourmet. And I'll tell you why, because I think the scenes in their getaway, where is that place? Is it in the Hamptons? I believe it is Long Island, I want to say. Yeah, Long Island. It's basically Long Island and the Hamptons, that kind of by the water, lavish mansion by the water. We've all got one. We've all got one. I thought those scenes were so...

22:34And the oysters scene. Oh, my God. Where he's bleeding all over the oysters. Bleeding on the oysters. I thought that was so brilliant, because this is a show that takes, as you were talking about how, you know, there was too much plot for the showrunner to kind of squeeze into just a couple episodes. But this is why, because, and this is why I think it's brilliant that it was eight episodes, and even with some slight moments of sagging that I was saying at the beginning, when they have time to have the oyster scenes, which is like, why are they going into such detail of these fucking oysters? But it just worked as character, so much brilliant character building, and he's so great, Bradley Whitford's brilliant in those scenes and the two of them are fantastic and his kind of like seeming incipient alcoholism when he pours all the drinks into his one glass no matter what they are it's so subtly done it's actually I think that's it's not the burger element has almost been just got rid of in this series I think it's just brilliant quality all round I think it's the writing is so smart yeah the writing is very good and those scenes like that you just don't get those scenes in inferior shows and they really take time to sometimes to give you like a wildly seemingly irrelevant trivial moment but it just shows you behind the scenes what goes on with these particular characters and reinforcing what makes these characters so intriguing and I thought that all of the stuff in the Hamptons or Long Island whatever the fuck it was, was just brilliant absolutely brilliant, particularly the oysters and the bleeding on the oysters and obviously that's where they come to the let's blame it on the old president plan, which is kind of her high-risk plan.

24:13Very high-risk plan. And that whole scene, and that, yeah, when he arrives, when Roy Bukinero, the British Prime Minister, arrives and does his unbelievable last-minute betrayal, it was also brilliantly handled as well. Because he would, wouldn't he? Again, that's such a Trumpian move. Yeah, because he's an absolute maverick. I mean, it's not, in many ways, it's not really representative of the relationship that the UK has with the US, to be honest. No, not at all. It's the love-actually moment. it's the love action moment yeah but it all works so well it does make it plausible that he would do such a thing so yeah I just think it's I think it's got I think it's just got better and better this show yeah I think it's a good season I know people say you know we talked about it earlier that it maybe slumps a little bit but I was I was I was gripped pretty much from end to end even if there are moments which aren't as good as the others I loved it because it's a season this one of splits where her relationship with Hal really comes apart on the seams.

25:09But also, the UK-US relationship completely fractures as well. And, you know, it's a combination of it feels high stakes. You've got these incredibly lavish properties that they do all this stuff in. The locations are fucking unbelievable. It's so good. And just put little moments, like genius little character moments, like when she steps in because Grace doesn't have a proper suit and she gets that kind of exercise top and turns it inside. I was like, that's such a genius. little detail. I love when she gets the new Secret Service protection detail. I've mentioned this before in an episode, but I think that's the funniest scene of the year in any show.

25:48And I include Alan Partridge, which I think is the funniest scene of the year. But the Secret Service woman who looks like her with terrible hair. She has to make her hair terrible. And she feels attacked by it. Kate's response is genuinely hilarious. This show is one of the funniest shows and it's high. And there's the other bit that happened in, I think it's in the last episode when the president says, Olivia Trowbridge is a cunt. The delivery of that line, again, I've watched that like two or three times, is absolutely brilliant. But you have amazing people in this, like Alison Janney, Bradley Whitford, Kerry Russell, Rufus, these are all phenomenal.

26:27David Gassi's fucking great in this as well. Every single one. The CIA woman, what's in that? Yeah, absolutely. A-Drake, yeah, Spudger Park. Fantastic. Her speech, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Her speech about how, you know, I'm an Asian, tiny, small Asian woman working for the most... That was a brilliant... Because you do think that. You're like, what the fuck is she doing in the CIA? You know, the top of the CIA, it's insane. But that speech was a brilliant kind of, well, this is why. Probably wouldn't have, again, like that appointment... Basically, Trump would have fired her by now, wouldn't he?

26:56I mean, that's the bottom line. For so many reasons. Yeah, for so many reasons. But they all get brilliant moments. Because Stuart has his own scene where he kind of... Because he talks about his devotion, how many years of his life he devoted to the previous president who died and has now been blamed for everything. Right. And that was already powerful. And they have to sell that. And Adria has to sell to him. Yes, exactly. But this guy who mentored him did this horrible thing. Yeah. And I mean, that's rough. Yeah, exactly. But that's a thing which I think is quite interesting, which is dealt with in the most recent season of Blue Lights, where it's talking about the, everyone wants to know what's going on behind the curtain, but sometimes the burden of knowledge is brutal.

27:33when you know, but you can't share it. And so you have to keep those secrets. But then it kind of comes with a job, if you're in the CIA, I would imagine. Oh, completely. And that's the cleverness. Going back to the deployment of the force flag attack has been so clever, really. Even though, as I said right at the beginning, sometimes it gets a bit bogged down in the detail of that, and they keep banging on about it, and the submarine, et cetera, and all of that. But actually, that storyline has rippled out and echoed out from season one. And even at the point where he, as Stuart was complaining about it in that scene, it all comes down to the nature of the original storyline.

28:19They brilliantly have ramifications for every single character in the show. It's so clever. It has to be said, this is by some degree my favorite Netflix show. Yeah, same. but nothing really comes close. It's so exciting. It's so much better than all those fantasy shows, isn't it? It's better than The Witcher. I will admit it right here, right now. It is better than The Witcher. I prefer it to really anything else. I'll show you things, don't get me wrong. I mean, it's nice about it, but New Diplomat trumps everything for me. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you could sit back and go, it's got elements of the West Wing.