Tip Toe, Two Weeks in August, and La Brea. With guest Russell T. Davies

22:13Did you know this, Boyd? No, until you forwarded us this email, which has a picture of said, it is it's incredible it's incredible spectacular it's in her hallway hangs over the stairs and it's the computer from there and it's a chandelier and it looks magnificent and I want it yeah I don't know how to put it how did she get her hands on it I don't know I know I think she explains that in her podcast I think she does explain it I can't remember the rest is science but I mean it's a pretty good get anyway anyway Stuart goes on to say it is a long story that she explains on the rest of science podcast there you go so there's a plug for the rest of the science.

22:49My question to you all is what TV prop would you most like to turn into a piece of home furniture slash art?

22:58Steph:Boyd, I feel like you can guess the TV prop that I would want in my house to turn into something. Is it? If you know. Is it the wire sign that says Yellowstone Dutton Ranch and you'd have it over your front door? Oh God, it so would be now. No. Boyd, tune in with me. Think of all the things I love the most. What would I have in my house? What do you love the most? What do I love the most? Oh, is it Angela Lansbury's typewriter? Yes, it is! Come on! You are my best friend. I know Steph the best. Yes, 100 % Angela Lansbury's typewriter. Murder Steph wrote. Oh my God. I'd have it, and you know what I'd do?

23:40Steph:I'd make it into a lamp, and I'd have the typing bits to turn it off and off. The typing bits. The typing bits, the key. Are they called the keys? I'd be like... Ladies and gentlemen, professional writer, Steph Seeland. Yes, the typey bits. Yeah, the typey bits. That would be good. She had an old school typewriter, didn't she? Actually, I'd have that thing that, you know, the thingy to turn it on and off, and I'd be like, ding! Yes, there'd be a lamp. Okay, that's a good shout. I can totally see you with that. How much would you pay for it if it came up for auction? I would pay... I would pay£1 ,000 for that.

24:17wow yeah I would splashing out

24:19Steph:yeah yeah James do you know that we're totally like James and I are so on a vibe now because of Yellowstone Yellowstone has brought us together we are like one person I think I'm going to be sick yeah it's horrendous oh okay sketch out Boydie can you top that no I mean I would have either a Dalek I'd quite like a Dalek where would you put it Dalek I haven't gone yeah more than a TARDIS Yeah. It's between a TARDIS and a Dalek. I think the TARDIS is harder to... It needs more space than the Dalek. But you could put things in the TARDIS. You can't really put things in the Dalek. Well, you could. You could kind of hollow out the topic.

24:57Make it like a drinks cooler. Yeah, exactly. People have utilised it. Do you think RTD's got one of those? Like a Dalek in his house? I think he might have a Dalek in his garden, yeah. In his garden? I think so. I know someone has. What would you like, busy lizzies sticking out the top of it? Yeah, that kind of thing. Wow. Busy lizzies.

25:13Steph:How do you know flowers? I know. I contain multitudes, Steph. Oh, God. Matt Lucas had a TARDIS at one point. I'm not sure he still got it. How would you get rid of it? How did he get the TARDIS? I think he got it on an auction. An actual was-in-the-show prop TARDIS? I think so. I believe so, yeah. I think there are a few around. There's one in the foyer of the BBC, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. It certainly has been until recently, yeah. What, did it just disappear? Exactly. It just flew off. So it would be either, yeah. It would be either of those. I think it would be, yeah. Okay. Oh, God, James's list is going to be so wrong.

25:51Steph:But can I just say, the question is brilliant. The picture of the devs prop is astonishing. Of course, devs is the answer to many a question like, what is the most underrated, undervalued show on TV ever? Great. And the answer is mostly devs. So it is a fantastic... That's a show I'd re-watch. Remember we were doing that question the other day on Pilot Plus? Way to answer a question for days after it's been asked. All right. But if I had a thought of it, I would have had devs in there for sure as a drama that I could re-watch. I'm just lashing out because I thought you would get that I know you are lashing out yeah I know because I really thought having known you I thought you would have got that sorry I would just model your way for that I know you're just not a good enough friend to stay that's pretty what it is I'm so sad what about you then oh god so many so many things such a lot so I've said before that I wanted the little framed Bartlett for American napkin from the West Wing but that doesn't feel like enough I'd also quite like the Resolute Desk from the White House office from the West Wing but no, again, I don't think that's going to work for me either.

26:50I did contemplate, is there something I could turn the Enterprise D warp core into? But then I thought there isn't, because it would make a shitty chandelier and it's a bit too big, it's impractical. And Picard's flute, which would be the other thing you'd maybe want from Next Gen, again, it doesn't have the impact. Is that euphemism? No, no, it's not. What would I have? There's a part of me, just for the camp value, you would quite like Joey's porcelain dog. Oh, the Greyhound. Yes, the Greyhound from Friends. Because the yellow picture frame on the door, I thought that would be too cliched. Whereas I think the dog is quite iconic.

27:26And I could just ride it around the apartment. Aren't you banned from answering any question about Friends? Well, this is the other thing. I'm not sure I could have that either. I could have had loads of Seinfeld ones. You could, yeah. Because I'm banned from saying Seinfeld ones.

27:36Steph:Who's banned you? Oh, just listeners. They have. It's true, they have. So it's predictable that we always... Oh, mine's super predictable. Where did you go? So you're younger in the history of the show. Yes, that's true. And we've been banging on our friends in Seinfeld and Co for literally seven years. Eight years, however many years. I considered briefly the little small golden nude from Fleabag. You know the little sculpture? Oh, yes. I thought that would be good. That's a good one. I could sit that in the hallway, maybe on a little table. So possibly that. And then I thought, but no, it has to be something I really like.

28:04So I've narrowed it down to two objet d 'art that I would like to install in a display. One of them would be Jamie Lannister's golden hand. from Game of Thrones. Oh, that's a really good one. So not like the Iron Throne itself, impractical, wouldn't be comfortable to sit on it, very sharp.

28:18Steph:Oh, that could be a door knocker. It could be, but I saw it more as like under glass, you know, like as just sitting on a table. No, it needs to be something that's made into furniture. Right, so it would have to be... A door knocker. I'm using the international sign for door knocker. Right, I'm thinking an oven glove. A piece of home furniture or art. Yeah, I said or art, but if I was to use it for anything, I would use it for taking hot things out of the oven. Oh, yeah, that's good. So that would be it. Or the other thing I thought is Edmund Blackadder's codpiece from Blackadder 2. I don't think I should ask this, but what would you use it for?

28:50Again, art. I cannot emphasize it enough. There would be no practical application for it.

28:55Steph:Because if I see you in Edmund Blackadder's codpiece, I think I'm going to faint. That's fair. That's fair. But yes, I would quite like to have that somewhere. I think that would be good. Okay, well that's an image we're never going to forget. No. I've got actual Wernham Hog business cards have you? yeah from when I was to do the set of The Office series 2 I could turn that into a I've got a few yeah you've got those things Boyd has stolen from the sets of TV shows yeah I think Steve and Ricky and Steve gave them to me you didn't steal it no I didn't steal it have you not got anything from when you did your set visit to the OA I thought you might have tried to steal something I don't think I did but that's a good point maybe the octopus in like a tank would be good Old Knight.

29:36Yeah, Old Knight. Yeah. That would be a good objet d 'art. Someone to recreate the octopus in the tank. Yeah. And that would be incredible. Yeah, I don't think I stole anything from the set. No, I should have done. I should have done.

29:49Steph:You missed an opportunity there. Yeah. All right, fair enough. Well, I think we have decorated... That was a good question. That was a great question. Yeah, I think it's good. A little bit of home decor. Yeah. I like it. Shall we move on now to this week's guest? I think we shall. And guess what? It is... a man who needs no introduction. It is the notorious RTD, Russell T. Davis, Resurrector of Doctor Who, presumably owner of a Dalek, as we've said, with Busy Lizzie's or not, it's unclear, a pioneer of Queer as Folk, Years and Years, It's a Sin, many, many more things. He's back on our screens this week with Tiptoe, which we'll be discussing a little bit later on, which is Alan Cumming in a neighbourly dispute with David Morrissey.

30:27Now, Boydie, you and RTD sat down to chat about this, did you not? Yes. Presumably also to catch up on the first season of Butterfly. Butterfly does come up. I'm sure it does and I'm glad you've mentioned this because obviously in the middle of the interview I didn't take the time to explain why the hell we were suddenly talking about Butterfly in case you're not a regular listener who would have heard the live podcast episode where it all came up but we do mention Butterfly I think I make the point that however good or bad we think Tiptoe is or whatever it's no Butterfly so yeah it is addressed fully in jokes abound yeah but you know he and I now do literally every time I communicate with him on whatever mode whether it's email or on Insta messages or whatever, I always put the butterfly emoji.

31:10Steph:God, I can't believe you've got your own thing with RTD, which is like a special emoji. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a butterfly emoji, yeah. Steph, we'll have to end our text with a little horse. Yeah, a little horse. It's going to be a horse. See? Simpatico. Oh, God. Sickening. Yeah. Here's Boydie talking to RTD. Formally welcome you, Russell T. Davis, to the Pilot TV podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I watched David on David and Alan on This Morning this morning did you see them they did a very good job well I was locked away in the bowels of the BBC doing Radio Backyard so I missed them and were they good they were good but the hosts clearly loved it and obviously you know people say they loved it but they obviously meant it which host which host who were they you know it was Ben Shepard oh that's all I want Ben and Cat Ben and Cat yeah that's all I want I feel like I've graduated from school Ben and Cat I'm really happy.

32:03I'm really pleased. That's nice. I watched it again. I watched it again last night. And it is so extraordinarily powerful. What you don't, well, you don't, maybe I didn't realise the first time I watched it because I was engrossed by the story and the characters. The direction, oh my God, Peter Haw's direction is extraordinary, isn't it? Right from the beginning. I think never better. And that's the man who directed that episode of The Last of Us. And as you know, he did It's a Sin with me. He did Nolly with me. He did Doctor Who with me. so it's quite a big ask to say this is the best and I think this is the best I think there's moments of grace and tenderness and violence that are absolutely extraordinary he's such a nice man, you expect these people to be monsters he's lovely he's also done Falling the new Jack Hall Peter Hall season on chapter 4 I've not seen that, he's been very secretive about that and won't let us see it isn't it funny how little they get recognised these TV directors, that should be you know that's quite a TV headline he's got 10 hours of television ahead of us and he should be celebrated and no incredible and also I think it's interesting that both your shows are on channel four your this show is on channel four Sunday night I can't think of a last time children five two drama series on at the same in the same week still running so but they're calling it and it's a big pusher channel four I'm in the channel four but right now and then they're calling it the channel the drama year for some reason um yeah it's about which I like I completely approve of and I will be banging at the door with more dramas for them.

33:30I mean, the support with Ed of this bit. This show was actually commissioned in seven days flat and I've never seen that happen in my life and I was kind of aware that as it happened, that'll never happen again. It'll take me seven years for the next one now. You watch. But I really respect the honour of that and the privilege because they kind of knew how topical it was. I mean, literally, we are racing to get on air. We haven't finished episode five yet. We're still mixing that, dubbing it. And there were jokes in this about Kemi Badenoch and Keir Starmer that we are racing to get on screen before they're checked out.

34:03I think we're just about going to get there. We've got two weeks. If we're crossing our fingers, we should get there. It's a great Kemi Badenoch joke, I've got to say. So, yeah, they knew how topical it was. They knew beyond just the references to politicians. That's a minor detail that you can fix with a bit of ADR. But the things that it says, the topicalness of the topical nature of this and the the rise in society of this anger. They just knew we'd had to get out there quickly. So, and they've done that. And that takes a bit of money. And I really respect them for that. They've been completely brilliant.

34:36Love them. That is brilliant. Now you begin this, for the first time, I think, in Russell T. Davis history, you begin the show with, at the end of the story, and you flash back. You get that classic 10 days earlier. Exactly. As you know, I refuse to do it throughout my entire career. Indeed. She turned down commissions on the strength of refusing to use such a hackneyed, cliched device. I mean, you see it, don't you? You see, like, a woman runs down the street. She goes, oh, gasp. And then it cuts to 10 years earlier, which I think is such a cheap and rubbish device. But frankly, I'm just going to be very arrogant now, Boyd, and say, if you want to see it done properly and well, come and watch Tiptoe.

35:14But I mean it. In fact, I'm sorry. This is a weaponized state-of-the-art way to do it. At the beginning of every episode, you get slightly more information. it all results in a cliffhanger to the end of episode four that wouldn't exist. I don't know how you get out of episode four. It would have ended with a buffet being delivered to Leo's house. Oh, Volavance. Without this device, the overarching device. And genuinely, I think it's vital. It tells you where we're going. It tells you what sort of story this is. Otherwise, if you didn't have that, it would open as kind of like a mild sitcom of Neighbours at War with some fun and a man who's locked out of his house and he's in his pants.

35:57And it continues like that for the whole episode. It's like you need a sort of, it's a signpost. It's a weather vane. It just says where you're heading. It takes the temperature and therefore, even the jokes get weaponised that way. The jokes have extra weight because when characters make mistakes, when Clive gets angry, when Leo makes mistakes, when Alan Cumming makes mistakes, like of sexualising things too much, he takes sex and he turns it into a joke at work, like us older, middle-aged gay men do. And sometimes it goes a bit too far. Sometimes it's annoying. Sometimes it really causes trouble.

36:30So when there's trouble, the trouble is greater and has more to say and more to do than if you didn't have these cold open, so it was very carefully debated, very carefully chosen. My producer, Nicholas, said, could not believe that I was doing it. When I first typed it, I sent it to her, the single page saying, I've actually done it. I've gone. I've finally done 10 days earlier but watch it and I swear there's no other way and this is literally how to do it I'm very pleased the stakes are very high aren't they right from the beginning the camera pans across various characters without spoiling the specifics you see the horror on their faces it's incredibly powerful you see the horror of what's going to happen who's involved you still don't know exactly what's happened it's still better spelling out there's still a lot to learn and also by the time we get to the end it's not the absolute ending there's a little bit more to come after that um but it just gives shows you the stature of it it shows you the darkness of it it shows the importance of it and to be blunt it says look we've got something to say here yeah yeah i think this is also your i mean the second coming was was a thriller in some ways wasn't it um yeah but this feels like a proper tense taught quite stressful sometimes thriller to watch and it's that did you was that deliberate Richard, do you think, oh, this is a genre I want to work on?

37:51Or did the story and characters come first and just kind of became the thriller that it is? I think the story came first because it's all about, you know, we can get very boring and talk about issues and make it all sound very worthy and important. It's a story. It's a great story. It's a great story about two neighbours. And that really started with me giving my front door key to my neighbour, who was lovely. But nonetheless, one day he let himself into my house, 10 o 'clock at night on a Saturday. And I was like, what? What? Mike? and he went oh sorry and then he was lovely but it just as a writer you begin to see how that can go wrong and suddenly how porous your house becomes suddenly you're just a little bit more insecure and and you think who's got that key now as well she's got that key how strange and it begins so that's where it starts with with with character and so but actually once you start to wonder what is someone doing my front door key that's a thriller that's simply there's no other direction to go in when it could be a sitcom i suppose but um but just the moment that feeling of unease crept into me that feeling of and and the and the whole drama as you've seen is based on once your front door is not safe then everything in the drama becomes safe suddenly a text becomes unsafe it's a thriller built on these things a photo should never be sent the group thread you I mean, the danger of having the group thread both on your phone and on your computer at home suddenly becomes vulnerable.

39:19I mean, I loved it. Once I started exploring all this, I started seeing, oh, my God, I can get a story after that. I mean, that's a very fine. Who does that? I do that. I have my group, my WhatsApp thread on my phone and on my computer at home. It can be seen twice. And that's dangerous. and the moment as a writer you start to mine all that and plot it you're in thriller territory without even having to try and I love the fact that it's thriller territory that doesn't have spies and car chases and briefcases with secret formulas hidden inside it. It is a thriller built up out of our phones, out of our front doors, out of a key safe out of one person saying something to someone that they shouldn't and one lie that was told six years ago a lie that was told six years ago winds this story up more and more and more and more as the episodes go on.

40:11Like everything's like that in it. Everything is. Our speech gets weaponised. Our attitudes get weaponised, as is happening in the world now, today. So it's both a thriller and does end up being a statement about where we are today. Yes. It's not just a state of the notion piece, but a state of the world. the madness of the world we're living in kind of reflect. Donald Trump gets a mention, you know, quite early on. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all do. It's like, you know, when we wonder about online hatred, because my great fear is that, oh, there's been online hatred for a very long time.

40:45That's old news. And I always thought a death threat was a piece of puff on the wind. I thought a death threat was no more deathly and no more threatening than when you say, oh, my God, you're being religious, which is not at all. They're just words. And I've always thought that safely in my own safe, pampered little world. But actually now we're beginning to see that cross into the real world. I mean, good Lord, if there was a member of the Jewish community here saying how they see online hatred treading into the real world, they're ahead of us, terrifyingly, shockingly, wrongly. It's like this is old news.

41:20And good God, the disabled community could say the same, race issues could say the same. Women could tell you this. I've been watching Believe Me all this week about the attitude, an amazing piece of Jeff Pope work, a brilliant piece of work about police attitudes towards rape and the rape statistics. And you think, where are we? Are we in 1955? Are things ever going to get better as you get older? And no wiser, you realise that what we call the establishment is just so vast and permanent and unshifting that it's terrifying. I always thought these things could be toppled, and instead they're getting worse and more powerful.

41:54now it's shifted from you know mandarins in whitehall to the tech barons who are answer to no one oh god off i go bud but we've got a terrifying loop that yeah i cannot that's why i had to write this i cannot see an end to it i cannot normally as someone says as leo says in the drama you're voting a right-wing government you know there'll be a left-wing government you wouldn't have left-wing government you know there'll be a right one with labour conservative Democrat Republic, we swing from one to the other. And actually, I think the swing is stopping. And I think above our heads, these monetizing tech barons are creating a whole world above our heads that doesn't listen to politics and just plays with us mercilessly.

42:39And honestly, I'm seeing this story with a gay lens. And so I'm inviting gay stories out of it. It's so much bigger. I was just, my fear for what's happening online is so great. I am a Luddite now, and I'm rapidly becoming more of a Luddite, and I don't care. It's like the truth of it stands now, boy, that if I walked into a primary school around the corner from here and showed a child hardcore porn, I'd be arrested. If I showed my child hardcore porn, they'd be taken into care. If a phone shows a 10-year-old hardcore porn, there's nothing we can do. No one is answerable. No one is guilty. No one is to blame.

43:21So we're in a situation where 90 % of children have seen two girls, one cup. This is obscene and disgusting and appalling, and we're all debating it while discussing a television show for Channel 4. This should be waking us up in a wild fever every single day, and it's not. Somehow we keep ticking along, and everything's fine. So listen, a million thoughts like that build up in my head all the time. I've got more to write it. Hopefully I've got another one to write with Nicola Schindler soon. saying more about this because I've driven to it. I think the world is nuts. And everything I've just said we know is happening.

43:59What are we doing about it? Nothing. Literally nothing where we should be acting with such severity and such swiftness that people are in prison and antennae are closed down and technology is shoved in a bin and burnt. Yes. There's a great... I was fine. Enjoy this, Sue. Sue is going in the bin as well. We're all getting burnt. It seems okay. You know what's supposed to go? Hardcasts. There's a great sequence which we could describe as a wank fest. Oh, really? Must we? On this Zoom, really? Yes. The end of it's on one. What's interesting about that is they're all on their own, aren't they? It's a little insight into what they look at on their phones or online when they're in their own private space.

44:51And it's actually genuinely, it's the end of episode one. And honestly, I'm not writing this stuff for a laugh. I'm not writing to be sexy. It's not a sexy sequence at all. It's the loneliness of people. They are all on their own. They all lock their bedroom doors. Even the married couple lock themselves away separately. And you see one of them's on OnlyFans. One of them's typing in Barra. That word gets shown very swiftly on scene. That's the whole world of cartoon, most Japanese porn, graphic porn, but drawings of porn as opposed to photographs of porn. There's Barra. There's a piece of slow horses porn that I actually had to contact Mick Heron and ask his permission to use his characters.

45:38Slash fiction. Someone's into slash fiction. You know what slash fiction is, which we don't see enough of on screen, frankly. That's the point that it isn't on screen. That's why it exists. But do you know what? Actually, there's one thing that doesn't exist in the world. I thought, what if there is river and lamb slash fiction? I went looking. Okay, it doesn't exist. I went further than the internet. I could not find a single example. It will do now. Now that you've invented it. And then I had to write it. Oh, my God. He unzips his seamy trousers. It was awful. And it's really felt like, so I had to ask Mick Heron's permission to use his characters.

46:16And it turned out that I met Mick Heron 42 years ago. He said, yes, I was once in the same room as you when we were students. How he knew that. And we had a friend in common who over the years has kind of updated him. Remember that tall man you met? That's him writing Queer as Folk now. So that was, what a lovely man and very kind of gave instant permission for us to use this, which was really nice because it's a real, so there's, so back to the masturbation. Thank you. There's fun to it with slow horses, porn slow horses slash fiction. But there's also a darkness and a loneliness. And actually, one character is in a non-masturbatory way, but he's kind of getting off nonetheless on real deaths on Instagram.

46:56And let me tell you, don't let that chase your algorithm, because I looked that up and I'm haunted by what I've seen. And algorithms won't let you go. that continues. I don't know how to delete an algorithm to stop it showing me things. And let me tell you, once you've started looking into that, you'll never set foot in another elevator ever again. Oh, no. Oh, my God, the things I've seen. But that's out there. That's people. People brutalize themselves with this stuff. I feel brutalized having watched just a bit of that. I feel there are images I can't get rid of in my head, and I wish I could.

47:30And maybe I'm old enough and wise enough. maybe to cope with them what if you're 10 years old you're 10 years old you're watching that stuff what on earth is that then you read an article in the newspaper tomorrow about how we're suffering bad mental health amongst children i wonder why oh i can't work out why staring us all in the face dear god anyway yes the loneliness of suburbia it's not it's actually not the sex sequence it's a loneliness yeah absolutely we should say david morrissey and ellen coming you're your your lead they've known each other for 40 years. How amazing. We didn't know this because I approached Alan about playing Leo, first of all, because they'll be dying to work for years.

48:10And it was actually Alan who said, well, what about David for Clive? And I was like, really? Do you think we'll get him? He said, oh, he's my mate. And he just phoned him up. And the amazing thing was really proper mates for 40 years. Like they used to share a flat. They were students together and they'd never appeared on screen together. I find that so amazing. so when they did their first scene which was on canal street uh they both walked down canal street had a little bit of dialogue thank you cut right that's a move on and we gave them a little round of applause and it was actually quite moving it was the first time they'd ever been there and actually this is it helped enormously this is a tough show what happens between leon clive is very very tough there's one scene that breaks the channel for laws for advert breaks because it's about 17 minutes long between.

48:55You're not allowed to go 17 minutes without an ad break. But we did because you cannot interrupt that scene anywhere between those two because it's so good. And so they had all this stuff together, heavy stuff. So their old friendship helped. I mean, they're playing two neighbours who live next door to each other for 14 years. So that's already a little bit of a language in common. Then events throw them together like this. So they had a camaraderie, they had a banter, but they had a depth. and as actors they could challenge each other and trust each other and let go and then leave each other alone when they needed to.

49:27It was properly caring and communicative. It was a really lovely show. I mean, it's two grown-up men. You've got two grown-up men and also both with a great sense of humour. So it made what could have been a very tough shoot into something really lovely. And that's for the entire cast. Then once you're number one and two on the call sheet, get on like that. The whole show gets a friendliness and a warmth and integrity, actually, that you might not always, or that you otherwise have to strive to create. It just existed automatically with this. Those scenes with the two of them confronting each other are spectacular, aren't they?

50:02They are proper thrilling sequences in their own right. I love writing. I've got to say, I could write those two talking to each other for 500 years. That's why you get scenes that are 17 minutes long, because I couldn't stop once you put them in the room and they never agree on anything, whether they're being friendly, whether they're being enemies, whether they're trying to sort out a problem. I loved it. They simply come from different worlds and cannot agree on the simplest thing. And both have equal values. The challenge to me as well was like, don't give all the strength to the gay character in this.

50:33You've got to write Clive as strongly as Leo. And I think when you watch it, actually, be patient because you get episodes one and two, which are very strongly Leo episodes. Episode three swings everything around and you see everything from Clive's point of view and you suddenly make a lot more sense of what's going on. So I had to work very hard. And when you've got David Morris in the cast, you've got to do that. You know, you're not going to disappoint him. You're not going to say, hello, you're the second lead. Two equal leads. Combating for first position is a great position to be in, really.

51:03That just set fire on screen. I love them. I could watch them forever. I love them. It's fantastic. I want to mention one character, which is Paul Rees plays, is in the show. The legendary Paul Rees as Melba, who sits in the corner of the bar, which Leo owns and just kind of holds forth I've seen that guy that's such a great I thought that was such a brilliant observation I think you want to zoom with that guy right now the old guy is saying it's all going to end badly like that it's a character called Melba who's kind of a faded drag, you never know his drag history he's not a drag anymore but a drag activist he thinks he's lived his glory days and now arrives every day and sits in the same corner of the bar.

51:51But he's a tolling bell throughout the entire thing. He's had his most powerful, actually, in episode one, where he lays out the agenda for the whole show, where everything I'm saying on this call at great length, he sums up much more concisely. And he's the one who gives us the title for the show because he's got a bit of lipstick on. He can be flamboyant. But he says, I used to walk into my room and go, ta-da! Now I tiptoe. just in case. That's why it's called Tiptoe. Well, there's another reason. You'll see very obviously why it's called Tiptoe as well, but that's a dark reason for that. But that's what he's there for.

52:28He's unashamedly there to spell that out. And I loved working with him. I'd previously done, I was an exec on a show called Men Up about the history of Niagara in Swansea, which I've written by Matthew Bowie, so a great show. And I was an exec on that show. And he was in that. He was heartbreaking. That's why I got to know him and saw how brilliant he was. Do you remember him? Years ago, he was the leading Gallo Glass and things like that. He's had an incredible career. He played Peter Mandelson in The Deal. Of course he did. Of course he did. Ethan Saltburn. A lot of your viewers, listeners, will know he was the butler in Saltburn.

53:01Great career. A lovely man. It's funny. The entire cast group adored Paul Rees. We really took him to our hearts. And we were sad when he had to go. And I kept on writing speeches. He's got a speech in the last episode where I simply decided that he didn't have a speech in the last episode. and I couldn't let that pass. And so he's got a riff on croissants. Then it makes me laugh. There's a very true riff on the modern-day croissant, what it's become. But I just adored him, really adored him. Yeah, he's absolutely fantastic to have on the show. How was it filming in Canal Street after all these years?

53:32You know, was it very different to how it was? Well, the street's essentially the same. Fashions come, fashions go. People say, oh, it's not the same as it was. They were saying that in 1998 when we shot Queer as Folk. It's funny because after Queer as Folk, people said, oh, the place has been ruined now because that's invited hen parties and straight people here. And actually in Queer as Folk, they complained about the hen parties on Canal Street, which was obviously written before Queer as Folk was ever transmitted. So it's like there's always been an invasion myth around that street. It was interesting because we had to, for Queer as Folk, we kind of had to beg and plead and present our case to film there.

54:10because it's a place where people go to, it's still where the people can go to live out their secret lives. I mean, if you're filming with people in the background, just catching them beyond the extras, just the people in the streets, you might not want to be seen on Canal Street. People might not know you're there. It was seen as a delicate place. It was seen as a secretive place. It was seen as an important space. So we very much had to ask our way in there. And we're treated well, but with suspicion as well. I've got to say, 26 years later, that's completely changed. and we were welcomed, you know, and to be honest, we brought a body of work with us.

54:43You and I were on Canal Street when we shot Cucumber there and Banana. And so we've been Nicola Schindler, my producer, and I've been going there for a long time. So this time could not have been more welcomed. Actually, it's the first time I've actually really been to Canal Street. The show doesn't just go there clubbing as a visitor. Leo actually runs a bar on Canal Street, go into the bar, and that bar is lively and funny and part of the drama. So actually, it's further into Canal Street than I've ever been, which I loved. It's really centre stage in it, and I'm very proud of that. I hope I've done them proud.

55:18Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah, 100%. Alan is the presenter of American Traitors. I know. And he's back. He said, try and get a secret out of it. Try and get any... Although he's dropped one or two Traitors' Secret, the British one, with the celebrities. He's dropped a secret or two today that he's kind of working on what's going on up in that castle, but I won't say. That's exciting. That's brilliant. Would you do it? Oh, my God. I'm hardly on that league. You've done the wheel. You've done the wheel. It's only a matter of time. I simply wanted to see how the wheel worked. I love being on the wheel.

55:51It was scary being on the wheel because I got a question wrong and a woman lost all her money right in front of me. And then we carried on spinning. And I genuinely had a word with myself going, this is people's money, Russell. you've come here to have a laugh and you've lost that woman 20 000 pounds and next question i got bang on i concentrated i was there but it was scary so amazing thing oh would i i don't know i'm bound to say yes and i'd be first out i'm too tall i'm six foot six they go he's a killer get him out stephen fry's tall he was in there for a while that's true okay i mean right it has to be seen it has to be seen yeah um and finally this is a this is a brilliant thriller and it's been fantastic.

56:32But it's no Butterfly, is it, really? Let's face it. Well, apparently Butterfly 2 won't happen. And I feel single-handedly responsible. I was on this podcast when Bod and James and Kay had to describe a new thriller called Butterfly, which I ripped the piss out of. Endless. What a load of rubbish, for God's sake. One day I think I'll be walking down the street and I'll be punched and it won't be a gay hate crime. It'll be the writer of Butterfly saying, I found you. you ruined my show this is no butterfly this is a proper thriller this is a proper thriller exactly exactly and finally finally finally you said before that you are you're already thinking of a new show with Nicola oh I always am I'm also slightly taking out do you know what I'm 63 now I'm slightly slightly slightly slowing down as if we don't finish we actually don't finish Cucumber until Cucumber we don't finish what's it called tiptoe Wednesday we do the final final bits then so I'm in a state of life now where I'm just going to finish a show deliver a show and then start a new one financially I can afford to do that I'm very lucky they pay me nicely and I appreciate that and it just means it's like a 63 with arthritis it's just time to take a little bit easier but I've started I've actually started two new scripts and I'm working out which one of them is going to take off and I have worked out so that should be finished in a month or so and then I'll see if anyone wants to make it but that's exciting yeah that's exciting you've got many exciting projects coming up that's all that's all i can say thank you thank you darling thank you as ever russell cheers my eternal supporter thank you boy you're very lovely and i very much appreciate it thank you darling that was boydie and russell t davis and time now for this week's news who wants to kick off because stuff's been happening hasn't it stuff's been happening i think steph is going to kick off about tom hardy so let's she won't be the only one this week.

58:24Steph:Yes, let's, right, so, this week it was announced that Tom Hardy has been fired. Who gets fired these days from Mobland? Yes. Fired. A show that I very much enjoyed. Yeah. Okay, so, there's been a lot of chatter about this. What do we think this means for the show? So he's going to finish season two and then he's not going to be in it. I mean, I can't help thinking there won't be a season three. Without him. He is literally the main character. Well, Variety says A third season has not been formally announced at this time, but given the show's success on the streaming platform, it's all but guaranteed.

58:58Is it, though? I don't see how. You can write him out. I mean, you could do. There's enough strong... You've got Helen Mirren. You've got Piers Brosnan. Extraordinary accents work there. Extraordinary accents, exactly. He should have been fine for his accent.

59:11Steph:Helen Mirren can hold it down. You're right. They can hold it down. You know, it's fine. It's such a big hit for them, I think, you know. It's like the Dunn March of British gangster stories. In many ways, yeah. so you know it'll be huge I think I'll be amazed if they cancelled just because he's leaving why do you think he's been fired just being a bit thingy on set well thingy a bit thingy a bit thingy I mean he has got a reputation right so when he made Mad Max Fury Road him and Charlize Theron did not get on famously okay can you name me anyone who gets on with Charlize Theron because she but people are always saying I really like Charlize Theron but it seems seemingly I listened to an interview the other day and she said people find it hard to deal with me because I am direct right and I'm all for her being direct and I love Charlie Theron but people always seem to be able to just say things they don't get on with her oh I don't know why okay that's interesting anyway carry on I think the emphasis was more on him being more difficult than her on Mad Max Fury Road right there's a book there's a making of book about Mad Max Fury Road which is he just talks about how difficult he was on set basically.

1:00:22So, and the rumours are abounding. We should say only rumours about what has led to this leaving him off season three which hasn't been announced yet.

1:00:33Steph:Someone somewhere wanted it to come out he'd been fired because they could have written him out and just said he's not returned and could have written him out, right? So someone somewhere wants it to be known that he has been fired because why else would they do this? Like they've obviously wrapped season two so there's no there's no issue he could just have been I mean it's a news story isn't it so on one level it's a good story these kind of disputes these kind of disagreements are you know are catnip aren't they too apart from the apart from the White Lotus thing which we've which we've discussed before White Lotus where we talked about you know Helena Bonaparte leaving but she there was no that was a mutual that was different right so that's the that's the most recent time when someone's left left something but apart from when was the last time you heard someone being fired from a show I know it's fired indeed Someone wants that story out there and I want to know who and why.

1:01:22I like that you're thinking of this one.

1:01:25Steph:Investigation. But I think I also saw there was quite a few tweets from people who'd worked on Mobland itself who said actually he was fine and that he was not problematic and everyone really respected him. The plot seconds. Yeah, so there are different views on the whole thing. It's always difficult. I interviewed him once for, what was that show he did? Ridley Scott produced it on BBC where he played, it was like a period. What, Taboo? To Boo. To Boo, yeah. And he was actually a delight. And, you know, because he's quite a scary figure to interview, isn't he? I think you'd be, I'd be like, you know, I love him.

1:01:58I think he's super amazing

1:02:00Steph:and sexy and hot. And it's nearly time to bring up the Pooh story as well. I've told that too many times on this podcast. That's true. It was one of the great James stories of our time. I don't know. It's interesting, isn't it? I wonder what happened. Yeah. Anyway, all this still conjecture, but one thing seems to be confirmed, which is that he's definitely not going to be in season three. In season three. Okay, do you know what is coming back for season two, dearest James? Marshalls. Why Marshalls? Yeah. Not why Marshalls, but why colon Marshalls. And now we know why it's why Marshalls. Yeah.

1:02:30Steph:But yeah, so Marshalls is coming back. So Marshalls is the spin-off, Casey's, Casey Dutton's spin-off. He was a Marshall and it's his spin-off and it's going to have a season two, which we're very happy about. Obviously, we reviewed that on this podcast before we got into the Yellowstone universe. But it is a network procedural. so it's like it's a very different beast to Yellowstone itself it's no Dutton Ranch that's for sure no James doesn't like procedural so he can't you know he'll have to be but it is Casey Dutton yeah now he loves Casey apparently the rules don't matter anymore anything to do with Dutton this Dutton that yeah Jesus Christ have you seen ITV James' favourite channel has dropped a first look Channel 5 is his favourite channel oh yeah Blue Lights director woo wow Wow.

1:03:19Steph:Wow. Right, so Blue Lights, so there's going to be a new ITV drama next summer called The Dark and it's got Helen Baxendale and it's, oh, it's a serial killer drama. That's not necessarily... You have nothing against that. Yeah, I have nothing against that. Okay, fine. It's not a true crime thing. It's a chilling serial killer drama. Are you confusing me with Kay who doesn't like serial killer dramas? I know. She'll never do anything for me. I'll often ask her to write stuff for me and she's like, no, I don't like it. However, you have to try and find enough shows for her to preview that aren't all about crime and serial killers.

1:03:45isn't it? It's difficult. Or sci-fi. Yes. Or fantasy. Well, except she's not quite as close as... Or any of the many things she will not cover.

1:03:53Steph:No, no. She will cover anything if it's good. Exactly. Because she's a consummate professional. Just not foundation. Yeah, we'll come back to foundation. Right. So, yeah, it's... Helen Baxter plays distraught mother Bethany Morgan who's been pushed to her limit by a detective. Oh, my gosh. Oh, it's a case linked to her missing son. Fantastic. Dick would love it. This sounds really, really good. Oh, it's going to be... You're going to love this. Who's the serial killer, then? Hang on. I don't think... They're not... It's a six-part series. So they've only announced her as the cast member. The picture is Helen Baxter-Zendale holding a rifle...

1:04:29Oh. Maybe she's the killer.

1:04:31Steph:...on the moors. No, she's the mother. Okay. Oh, it looks good. It looks really good. I think you're going to like that. We'll be reviewing that in a year. In a year's time, yeah. They have put out new pictures of The Agency Season 2. did you see this you know the agency the extraordinarily star-studded spy thriller yeah adapted from the original the French original but that's and that's coming back quite soon June 21 in fact this is following on from the trailer the drop I want to say last week or the week before did we talk about it last week well not the pictures but the trailers yeah following on from the trailer there are pictures and Michael Fassbender's back Geoffrey Wright Jodie Turner-Smith Catherine Walters and Richard Gere Richard Gere Richard Gere's son by the way is in Euphoria yes Richard you're really making me want to watch this Second Gear oh but he just shows you talk about Nepo Baby because Sam Levinson's obviously son of Barry Levinson the director and he's got various Nepo Babies in his shows including Richard Gere's son I've made my stance on Nepo Babies very clear in the last podcast I'm happy for them the Nepoverse Nepo Nepo yourselves out babes it's fine 100 % I'm in full agreement Dominic West and Hugh Bonneville guest star in it as well and I enjoyed season one although I didn't finish it so I didn't enjoy it that much did you finish it?

1:05:42No. There you go. But I didn't claim to be enjoying it as much as you. Oh, okay. Anyway, it's based on Le Bureau de Legend. I'm sensing it's French. Yeah. And it looks... One of the main pictures is of Michael Fessman wielding a massive gun. There you go. Not a euphemism. No. But I'm particularly excited because Richard Gere can do no wrong in my eyes. So I'm excited to see him back in that show. So season two, June 21. We may or may not review it depending on what else is on that week.

1:06:10Steph:Richard Gere's best performance ever. Oh, God, now you're talking. Yeah, I am. First night. Shut up. Internal Affairs. Brilliant. Nice one. Brilliant film. Seen many a time. I like him in that. What would you go for? American Gigolo. I'm going to say Pretty Woman. Pretty Woman. There's a modern backlash against Pretty Woman from the Gen Zers who think it's deeply problematic. Oh, God. Come on, Gen Z. Come on. Just saying. It's just, everything's problematic nowadays, though, isn't it? You can't do anything. You can't do anything these days. You can't move for being problematic, can you? That is true.

1:06:46Steph:Every move you make is problematic. Wow. Did you see, if you're going for a quote to promote your new series of your show... Which I am. Yes, we all are here. No, we're not. I would guarantee you this is a really good thing to say. Well, there's two views. I would say this is a good thing to say, but then you have to deliver. But anyway, the boss of House of the Dragon, season three, there you go, arriving soon, has described the Battle of the Gullet, coming up, as, in quotes, the craziest episode of TV ever made. Wow, that is a big claim. That is a big claim. So on the one hand, I'm very excited to see this thing, but he'd better live up to it.

1:07:26Steph:The craziest episode. The craziest episode of TV ever made. Okay. We'll be the judge of that, actually. Yeah. Okay, wow. I've already pinned down Ryan Condor for, and I'm going to say this now, he has provisionally agreed to do a spoiler chat for the new Hazard Rang once we've seen them all I'm excited about that but you're talking about quotes this is technically film related but it's also TV adjacent The Mandalorian and Grogu an extraordinary marketing campaign went out there was a poster for this when I said poster it wasn't like a physical poster it was like a virtual poster on Instagram and they just listed the names of all the outlets that had reviewed the film without the star ratings.

1:08:14So it said things like IndieWire and all these different websites. Yes, they have all reviewed it, but they didn't have any quotes. And the hilarious thing is a lot of those outlets had absolutely slated it. So all they were doing is essentially saying, the Mandalorian Grogu, people are calling it the Mandalorian and Grogu. And you're just like, what? That is crazy. It's such a wild thing to do to just list the outlets who have reviewed it, but not necessarily constantly. It was a mistake. I don't know. I don't think so. Genuinely, I found it baffling, but I thought that was really funny.

1:08:44Steph:But I think it's going to end up being like Goat. Do you remember the film Goat that was out recently, Steph Curry film, with the Goat? With the Goat. The basketball film. Whereas critics said it was absolute dog shit. Accurate. And the kids loved it. Yeah, but kids know nothing. Well, that's why the Mandalorian and Grow will probably be, they'll like it. To be fair, it's doing better than it was initially tracking, but it's still not doing well. so you know certainly not by Star Wars standards but anyway that's film news we can't be talking about films I was just you know mentioning it in passing did either of you watch the trailer for Vought Rising no astonishingly no prequel series to popular satirical superhero show on Prime Video The Boys which recently finished right I was going to ask you about The Boys something else about The Boys I didn't see Vought Vought Rising is it set in the 1950s it's got Jensen Ackles back as Soldier Boy Cash is back as Stormfront or whatever she's called then and it's kind of an origin story of it all.

1:09:37But you know there's this whole controversy going on in America at the moment about people, the right-wing lunatics, thinking that they really liked the police Homelander. I bet they did. And then when it turned out that it was an elaborate Trump critique, they've decided, oh no, we shouldn't like him after all because it's actually satirizing us, i.e. the American right wing. It is, but also we should say I'm pretty sure this season of The Boys was made before the current Trump administration. So I don't know that it's like, it's not a direct, because a lot of the stuff that's happening, it is art imitating life a little bit.

1:10:12Sure. Or life imitating art, sorry, not the other way around. It's life imitating art a bit, and it's ridiculous, but I don't think it was, they didn't set out initially to... Well, yes, interesting, yeah. But there's a big, should we or shouldn't we be supporting this show from people who are like the people on the show? Well, I would refer you to the spoiler special that we did for the boys finale, which we released last week in advance of Pilot Plus, where Amon Warman and I sat down to dissect the final episode and indeed the final series to talk about it. I have reservations. Oh. Interesting.

1:10:47Okay. But if you subscribe to Pilot Plus, you can listen to that now. And if you don't, then you can't. So sorry.

1:10:54Steph:So back to your Vought thing. Vought writing, yeah. It's hard for me to get excited about it, I'll be honest. in the wake of the boys finale which I did find disappointing it is hard for me to get excited about Vaught Rising hasn't there already been a spin-off of the boys? yes Gen V which hilariously got cancelled after two seasons and we were like oh that's fine because I'll probably end that story in the final season of the boys did they? did they fuck? no so I don't know what's going on there did they fuck? did they fuck? wow potty mouth has the boy one more question has the boy the final season of the boys has that got as many utterly perverse sequences as the season before It lacks a certain je ne sais quoi when it comes to shock value this time.

1:11:32I think they lost some of their... There's nothing on a level with the exploding penis or anything like that. There's nothing... Or hero-gasm. Dispointing. No, nothing like that.

1:11:42Steph:Would I like The Boys? No. Okay. No, you would not. It's got lots of gratuitous nudity, so you might do. Oh, I like the bottom. It does. There are bottoms in it. What's the premise of The Boys? For those who don't know. To a certain extent, it is a superhero satire which leans heavily into swearing explicit sex acts and shocking displays of violence. And it posits a world in which the Justice League are all twats. All superheroes are just twats. Do you know what I'm hearing? Peacemaker. That's what I'm hearing. Do you know what vibe-wise is not a million miles away? No, it's similar, yeah. Okay.

1:12:15Your face.

1:12:16Steph:Yeah, I didn't like Peacemaker. Didn't get on with Peacemaker. No, it's not how I like my John Senna. We know what you do like. I do know what you do like. No, you don't, because you didn't know that I wanted to merge. Well, I didn't know that one particular thing, but I know you liked Off Campus with all its you did oh yeah Off Campus is great yeah yeah yeah nudity and the story is that it's the third most watched Amazon Prime series debut of all time how's James the third most watched and the first most paused I think the third most oh could be as well but only beaten by which two shows James oh Reacher and Bosh no The Lord of the Rings The Rings of the Lord okay and Fallout really yes yes indeed What about the one, Gabby, you don't like?

1:12:57It's the only sci-fi show on television I don't like, and I don't fully understand why. That means Off Campus is tracking above heavyweights like The Boys, Reacher, and The Summer I Turned Pretty. That's a show, not me just talking. So, yeah, it's a huge hit, Off Campus. Yeah, Off Campus, Off Kits, Off Everything. Yeah, it's quite extraordinary by all accounts. That's next up after Yellowstone, obviously. Of course. Any other news before we move hastily on? No, we've had enough. that we've done. Legally questionable. Okay, good. Let's see if that's actionable or what I can even leave in by the end of it.

1:13:31Brilliant. Okay, let's jump in to reviews then. And let's jump straight into Tiptoe, shall we? Which, if you've already heard, pits Alan Cummings' Leo against David Morrissey's Clive in a kind of companion piece to Queer as Folk. Would you say that's fair, Boydie? Yeah, in some ways. Right? And it has a slightly harder, I would say, 2026 edge. So this focuses on the modern culture war, the kind of rifts between communities in this case, in suburban Manchester. Now, RTD is a long-time friend of the podcast. So we are all huge fans, but Boydie, you did the interview. Thus, we turn to Steph, who, I would say, at 4 '11", is someone who is not unfamiliar with being on tiptoe a lot of the time.

1:14:11So, Steph, tell us about this.

1:14:15Steph:Can you believe this, Boyd? Unbelievable. Yes, I can believe it. Okay. As regular listeners will know, when I absolutely love something, I generally cannot stop watching it and then I will watch every single episode. And the only reason I didn't watch every single episode of Tiptoe is because I ran out of time. And you had four episodes of Yellowstone to watch. I had four episodes of Yellowstone to watch. So, wow. Talk about starting with a bang. And this is the kind of opening sequence that I think only... I mean, you guys are, you know, very much friends of RTD and I have never met him or anything, so I'm in no way compromised, so I don't need to say any of these things.

1:14:54Steph:Did you come to our live show with him? No, because you didn't invite me. No, we didn't, that's true. Oh, I think... You know how HBO don't invite James to anything? Yeah. Or me. Yeah, you lot don't invite me to anything. He was at the HBO launch party. He was there. Okay, fine. Anyway, carry on. Anyway. Let's not get sidetracked. This is a kind of opening to a show that I think only RTD can do. he has just got there's a magnificence in his the thought process that he's behind this opening scene it's just oh god it's so sensational but it's absolutely it draws you in so immediately that you know within the first 20 seconds that you have got to watch every single episode of this and I'm so annoyed I haven't watched it and have you watched every single episode?

1:15:47Yes.

1:15:47Steph:Of course you have. Right. Can I talk about what happens in the first? Or do you not want me to? You can't be too specific, no. Okay. I only know this because I wrote a little piece on it for Empire. And at the very last minute, I had to change the wording of it. I remember that, Jay. But it is literally the first 20 seconds of the show. I know. I'm not sure that you can impose a spoiler warning on the first 20 seconds of the show. I'm just telling you what happened, which was that I did describe in my original version of this piece in Empire what happens in that opening shot, literally. And people didn't like it.

1:16:16And people were like, can you not? Okay, interesting. Yeah. Fair. But it is absolutely... We will adhere to the rules. I will say, though, it uses a mechanic that is normally what I would describe as Boydie's personal bait noir. Like a drone. And Muscle T's bait noir. We'll get onto that, yeah, for sure.

1:16:29Steph:So it gives you the... Yeah, it's kind of the reverse. You get the end scene of the whole thing and it's really kind of a working back of where did they get to this point? And it does the 10 days earlier. So I can't tell you what happens in the first incredible opening scene. but then we are introduced to these two neighbours Leo and Clive. Leo is initially locked out of his house having spent a night with someone and he is forced to go to his neighbours to try and get back into his house and his neighbour is an electrician. He's married with sons and Leo lives on his own and he has a much nicer front door, let's just say that.

1:17:12Steph:Yeah, I'm scared to do any spoilers for this. So the first episode is you're introduced to Leo's life and you're introduced to the people who are around Leo and all the kind of oppression. And he's so upbeat, this character Leo. Alan Cumming is a delight to watch, isn't he? He's upbeat in a world and he's kind of those people sort of trying to, and his best friend sort of tries to, like, tell him the realities of the situation we're in. He's like, no, no, no, this is all going to be great. We're living in this time. And people will eventually accept us again. And his friends are like, no, no, we're not.

1:17:47Steph:It's all awful. Everything's terrible. And he's... But Alan Cummings' character completely embodies, you know, the kind of the hope for a world and a civilization where everyone is accepted. And that is the heart. He, in this first episode, is the heart of this show. And then you've got living next door to him. You're not quite sure where Clive sits in terms of... Because he's seemingly accepting of Leo as a neighbour, but also you know he's got the whiff of prejudice about him, hasn't he? But you're not, and it's not completely explored, and obviously it is because this turns into a thriller.

1:18:27Steph:It's not completely explored where he sits on that fence. And he's got two sons, and again, I don't want to give him any spoilers, this is quite hard to talk about, that are growing up and may or may not, you know, lead different lifestyles. But the one thing that I do want to talk about is there is an incredible scene at the end of... You know how I'm always talking about, you know when I like assembling scenes where people assemble? You assemble teams, right? You do love an assembly. I love an assemble. There is a communal climax assemble. There's a communal orgasmic assemble of the likes of which...

1:19:06I believe it's known in the business as a wank montage. Yeah.

1:19:08Steph:and it was like it wasn't going to stop I was like oh my god but it was so brilliantly deployed how he'd got everyone was on their phones and they were all simultaneously you know simultaneously gaining pleasure through their phones through a variety of different mediums that's very safe to say I've not seen anything like that before and I thought it was absolutely fantastic because you you it almost it answered all the questions from the episode of where everyone kind of sits like you know the dad is watching awful things on YouTube of like death he's watching death yeah and some of them watching porn and some of them are can boys his wife you know his wife is listening to she's listening to slow horses based porn yeah slow horses porn it's quite something like slash fiction imagining you know is that what it was that's what it is I totally didn't get that yeah that's amazing yeah and I had to get permission from slow horses creator what's his name Mick Herron Mick Herron to use it and it turned out I didn't pick the character that's hilarious you can miss it because it's quite they mentioned it very briefly and they referred to the character as having shagging that's amazing slow horses slash fiction it really has it is brilliant and that's actually part of it but anyway Karen the thing about this for me is and I would say for all of RTD's projects you immediately get the feeling that this is this is an important message this is important this is something that everybody should watch whatever your views are I'm an incredibly liberal person like whatever you've used I write and think this is an important thing to watch I'm so I'm so I'm know I keep saying I'm so annoyed I haven't watched all of it um Alan Cumming is sensational I love the whole premise of it and I love the fact that I've got a feeling that what you first think is going to happen and what you first think from the opening very dramatic scene is completely is going to be completely turned on its head and not be the case at all but um yeah I loved it I absolutely loved it I thought I thought it was incredible I really loved the soundtrack as well even in that in the communal climax scene, which is what I'm calling it, the music in that was deployed absolutely brilliantly as well.

1:21:15Steph:It does feel like it's going on slightly too long for me, that climax scene, but it's necessary. Oh, 100%. If you're going to do a mass wank scene, then mass wank montage, you've got to go fully. I would say he's throwing down the gauntlet to sex education and the famous wank montage from that. But the whole point about the wank montage is there is a serious point to it, which is they're all on their own. Yes, in isolation. They're all isolated from each other. And that is one of the main things that he's exploring in this series is how the effect that online, social media and all of that has taken us over to the extent where we're all being siloed on our own and we're not communicating with other people properly.

1:21:59And it's actually hindering communication more than anything. So once there's an incredible sequence where, because my problem is because I've watched the whole thing I don't remember what bits that happened when but there's a whole communication is all I'd say that Alan Cummings' character has with another character via text via WhatsApp has that happened yet?

1:22:17Steph:No that hasn't happened so this is really very much a scene set up where you meet Leo you meet Clive you understand there's a relationship between them which you're not really sure what it is Yeah there's an amazing scene where Leo which is Alan Cummings' character is, as I say, WhatsAppping this person. And I won't say any more, but it goes on quite a long time. And he just keeps, basically just one or two wrongly picked words can have a huge effect on, a ripple effect, just by saying the wrong thing in the tiniest little way. Oh, texting is awful. In a communication that ends up being, you know, might be made public, etc.

1:22:57And he's exploring all these different ways in which, you know, there's a terrifying reality to the modern world, basically. It's partly the politics. Donald Trump is mentioned quite early on, I think, in the Canal Street scene. But he's not just simply saying, oh, you know, in that sense, it goes back to years and years. Years and years meets careers focus, or he describes it. That's because years and years, I was talking about the state of the world, and this is as well. But he's talking about it from, not just politics-wise, but also in the rise in just people being unhappy and people being violent on the verge of violence and people reading conspiracies conspiracy theories online and david morris's character clive is one of those people who's obsessed with all this stuff and believes all this stuff and some of it is true you know russell points out some of the conspiracies some conspiracies historically turned out to be true there was a conspiracy to do so and so yeah um hillsborough for example just plucking that out my you know those actual conspiracies went on in in what in the in the background to hillsborough Anyway, so it's an absolute indictment of the modern world and a kind of wake-up call for us to be more aware of what's going on around us and the rise of bigotry and the rise of intolerance and how that's all happening online and how it's making us lonely and unsafe.

1:24:17The whole title Tiptoe comes from, you used to storm into a place, you know, proudly, the gay characters, and now you're tiptoeing around. You're kind of scared as to what might happen. That scene, I thought, was kind of pivotal to setting out the stall of what this is. So this is where Paul Rees sits down with Alan Cumming. And they're talking about the state of what it is to be queer in 2026. And Alan Cumming has the kind of very kind of Pollyanna-ish view. Oh, it's fine, Section 28 is behind us. It's all fine. You know, we're accepted now. And Paul Rees is like, you're not paying attention.

1:24:50Like, things have backslid to a point, you know, it happens very subtly sometimes. but the President of the United States actively speaking out against the trans community has knock-on effects. Complacency. There is complacency, exactly that complacency. And the fact that, it made me stop and think quite a lot because we live and work in London, in media, in the liberalist of liberal bubbles. So sometimes it's easy for us to think, oh, we do live in a much more enlightened times because we don't hear as much casual homophobia as we did, say, 20 years ago. but it has shifted and I would say the culture war lines have hardened and entrenched and actually the discourse now feels almost not as casually sort of homophobic but it feels like the rhetoric is much more venomous now than it certainly was 20 years ago like it's become and again Alan Cumming actually has an interesting line about that when he talks about you know this is all your fault you were telling us what we could be what we couldn't be you're like a girl you're like a boy are you a girl you go right fine we're going to be girls now you don't like that either

1:25:52Steph:sorry I was really trying not to spoil any of this at all, but now you were really talking about the scenes. That scene where he talks about pronouns is so brilliant. It's so clever. This is the thing. I think it's such an incredible achievement because he goes there, he talks about the trans people and all of that. And there's a character, his best mate, Alan Cummings' character is Leo's best friend who's played by Elizabeth Barrington. Stephanie, yes. And she is a gender critical, I think we can use that phrase, person who is not enamoured of trans activism shall we say and he's got trans employees at the bar which he runs which he owns, Spit and Polish and there are various trans characters in the show but he really cleverly addresses that point in her character and there are some people who are going to be annoyed because she's not just being bigoted, she's a perfectly intelligent, friendly decent person but she has differing views.

1:26:49She has her own views. And she's allowed to express those views. And, you know, he challenges her on them. But even to address that right now in this world we live, particularly in this country, is kind of, I'll use the word brave. It's not brave, it's just full on. It's controversial. It does not flinch from any of these issues and any of these ideas and talking about the proliferation and, as you say, particularly the complacency right now. But above and beyond all of that, what I want to say about it is, it's his first real thriller so the second coming which is the series about the man who's Christopher Eccleston is a big son of God we watched that recently and that mentioned I think a few weeks ago on the show and that has thriller-ish elements to it it's kind of directed a bit like a thriller but this is a proper full on you're talking about the soundtrack the ratcheting up of tension when it needs to in this is absolutely extraordinary and it's a thriller there are no car chases or explosions spoiler alert it's all building to that first thing we see as you talked about, which, you know, the horrific image is the first shot of this whole thing and each episode goes back to that incident and all five episodes so you get to the full explanation of exactly how it got to that point where that horrible thing happened that I'm not being specific about enough and it's just, and it gets so tense honestly, it's one of the most intense and tense viewing experiences for a long time and it's a real, you know it's a different term for him, I think because he's still got his trademark humour.

1:28:15There's a lot of it that's funny.

1:28:17Steph:Yeah, and Alan Cummings' character is joyful. But you know, later on, he is really, he's in this position of being terrified because one of the first things that happened is, I'll try to look bang on about the whole thing in pure detail, but one of the sparking points for the whole story is he lends his key, his front door key, to someone else and he realises at some point that things are being moved around in his house, like his medicine's been moved and a wine glass might be upturned or turned down and that creepy who is coming invading my house thing who is exploiting the fact that someone's got my key what is happening to that you've got this ongoing question which is revealed in a brilliant way which is a proper thriller shock moment and things like that happen all the way through until you get to this extraordinary climax which is so intense and disturbing it's extraordinary so I think it's I mean I am incredibly biased you are yes but that's fine I'm not biased at all and it is absolutely brilliant and I think his genius I'm going to use the G word his genius is his ability to acknowledge and put on screen all the facets of people's personalities and someone who people can be friends and have like you said Stephanie's an amazing character because she doesn't she does have and they have those you know there's this amazing scene in the first episode where she's putting her point across and her opinion across forcefully to him.

1:29:42Steph:And then she's kissing him and cuddling. This is Leo, kissing and cuddling her best friend because obviously he comes to rescue her. She comes to rescue him with the key. But he's not afraid. RTT is not afraid to put, you know, like controversial and uncomfortable, uncomfortable characters on screen, characters that are uncomfortable to watch. And he's not afraid to display that kind of, you know, sort of maybe passive bigotry of people. and that's really clever what he's done with this. And they're not just, David Morris' character is the, you know, you think ostensibly the villain. He is a homophobic conspiracy theorist.

1:30:18There is no doubt. And how it all develops, the conflict between them gets quite scary and he, David Morris, he goes there in a really extraordinary performance and Alan Cummings has to do stuff, you know, Alan Cummings' most famous recent stuff has been hosting the US traitors. Yes, yeah. In this, my God, he shows another side to himself because I know he's funny and entertaining but he gets to some really dark places and David Morrissey to be fair does kind of dour and sinister exceptionally well he really does

1:30:45Steph:but that's interesting because I was thinking I wonder if he is because he's not overtly homophobic in the first episode so I wondered if he it was going to turn out that he wasn't actually particularly I don't think that's a spoiler to say he yeah they both just said but what I was going to say Alan Cummings' character isn't all you know isn't all goodness and you know wonderful lovely he makes mistakes he does stuff that is misguided you know I see that's that's our 2D's brilliance and it is one of the best things I've ever done really I think so it just feels so like yeah I think the marrying of the thriller genre with a kind of state of the nation thing is just so clever yeah and does this drop all at once no I think it dropped so I think they're showing two episodes Sunday and today Monday as this comes out so it started last night Sunday and then final three Sunday Monday Tuesday next week and I think it's going online the first two online this has got a complicated batty dropping schedule yeah so I think the first two are online from Sunday and then the final three will be online from the following Sunday I think if the planets align and Jupiter is in the ascendant yeah but as Russell often often says no one knows what the fuck they're doing when it comes to scheduling next things I mean he's absolutely right oh and one final thing I want you to when you mentioned he is the one who started the whole campaign in my on this show for me that every single streaming particularly show has to start at the end or the middle and go back and rewind and look flashback and he has been the staunch critique critic of that method of storytelling but he had to do it for this series this is the first time he's ever done it because it just works it's all about how you end up at the point the first thing you see in that opening sequence which is incredibly distressing so yeah he He, of all people, is extraordinary.

1:32:39He has given in to the fashion that he's done for a very specific reason. Extremely good. Right, tiptoe then. And we move on now to two weeks in August on BBC One. This is Catherine Shepard's series about a group of friends who hop across to a villa in Greece for a sunny getaway only for their friendships to buckle under the Aegean sun. Boydie, tell us more about two weeks in August, please. I'm going to tell you the quote from Catherine Shepard. who is a she was an actress Catherine Shepard she was in the Julia Davis show what was it called Sally Forever oh yeah I remember it and you recognize her and she's been and this is actually made by the people who produced that show as well so it's a Julia Davis connection and you can imagine a version of this where Julia Davis is in actually yeah but I want to read the quote from her about her description of what she's trying to do this is a story about what it's like to try and be happy in a very anxious and confusing world, and at its core, about a woman struggling to play all the roles she's been given by life.

1:33:42How do you enjoy yourself for two weeks in August when the world appears to be falling apart around you? I hope it will be as funny and sad and thrilling and beautiful, ridiculous and heartbreaking as real relationships between humans are. And furthermore, she came up with this idea of focusing on, so it's particularly, mostly about Jessica Raine's character, Zoe, but it is an ensemble piece. It is a bit White Lotus-y from that point of view. you've got lots of disparate characters who are connected and who know each other, arriving, gathering in a very hot locale on a Greek island, and lots of sexual shenanigans and lots of flirting and illicit stuff is happening.

1:34:21So it's got that. And even in the music, actually, particularly in the soundtrack, you know how in The White Lotus it's got this jaunty music going on all the time? This has quite similar soundtrack approach, but it's very different. Equally, it's a very different piece to that. but what is fascinating about it for me is that she got a um psychologist to like to involved so she created these characters and she went to the psychologist i'm simplifying it give me back give me less psychological back insights psychological profiles yeah so psychological profiles all the characters and what are their different issues they might be going through so she created these proper biographies for all of them detailing what they've gone through things stuff secrets and lies within their lives.

1:35:02Particularly like, so you've got, for example, the character, the gay guy, who's played brilliantly by Hugh Skinner of 2026 fame. And Hugh Skinner can do no wrong. But this is his best performance so far, by far. And his best friend is played by Leila Farzad, who is phenomenal. She was in the Billy Piper series that was on Sky. I can't remember the name of. I hate Susie. Thank you. I hate Susie. The dementia is fully, fully functioning today. And their best friend, And he's like a gay guy and gay guy's best friend. And they're completely reliant on each other. They are, you know, and everything they do.

1:35:38And she's kind of resentful. He brings a new kind of love interest to be met online. And then that guy's got two gay mates who come along as well. She's like, they've got these three youngsters who are both like barely in their 20s. And they're both in their 40s. And she's completely judgmental about him. But you can totally tell the psychology has filled in what both their issues are, both with each other and themselves.

1:35:59Steph:Well, they had this pact, didn't they? They were going to get married or have a baby. Which is things that people do a lot, right? Those pact things. Oh, yeah, in five years' time, we'll have a baby. That's just one example. All of the characters are totally ring-shoes psychologically. I think with that brilliant idea of getting professional guidance as to what they've been through, these characters. And at the same time, you've got Jessica Rayner, who's also never been better. Easily, like her best role ever. She's so good. I couldn't agree with you more. She has to deal with the kids. her useless husband but played by Damien Maloney fresh off Bergerac Kay's favourite who is like could not be more different than he is on Bergerac he's really he's fantastic they're all brilliant talk about the key to having a good show is having a really good cast everyone in this is fantastic he is annoying he's been through a trauma and he's like taking out on her and he's being horrible to her he's a massive shit she's a massive twat she's got her mum is calling her every minute of the day to be obnoxious and annoying to her and she's got to deal with her own obsessions with various other members of the friendship group that have gathered for this fucking holiday that turns into a nightmare and she's brilliant.

1:37:08Every single step of the way. And she's having visions, by the way, of these Greek, these kind of mythical characters. I was wondering if you were going to get to that. I'm getting to the mythical Greek characters, yeah, because that was the thing that prevented some people to know. We were talking to someone

1:37:22Steph:this morning and they said that Kay didn't want to watch it because it's... Apparently, I mean, yeah, we'll ask Kate to explain himself but so the mythical Greeks that I could have done without so one semi problem with it it's only a semi problem that didn't bother me I finished the whole thing all eight episodes and I think it's brilliant but the Greek the recurring imagery of these three Greek figures one of whom by the way is naked so you see this woman with her boobs out all the way Jessica Ray is having these visions you know But often there are lots of show dramas where they like to have a layer of, you know, kind of imagery like this that has, you know, kind of almost designed to deepen the whole thing.

1:38:08And it's not enough just to have an ensemble of people who are all falling apart and all having illicit activities with each other. I'm also going to have a bit of imagery thrown in and I could have done without it, to be honest. But equally, I can understand it does work within its own. It achieves what it's trying to do, I think. underlying her she's having a real moment and she's having almost like a descent into madness that she's seeing things and you know and it's not helping right

1:38:34Steph:I don't think I don't think it needed it I don't think it needs it either I think it takes away from kind of what is actually an incredible sort of analysis of the human condition and the dynamics of group behaviour and any I don't know if you guys have ever been on group holidays but group yeah let me skype it don't go on a group I've been on group holidays don't go on a group holidays but on a group holiday you know oh god it's Jessica Rain's character is the is the people pleaser she wants everyone to have a great time to her detriment she doesn't care what happens she wants everyone to she's trying to keep this her husband who's yes things have happened to her husband and it's awful and he's so awful to her.

1:39:26Steph:He's just so, he's such a shit. And, you know, if you've ever been on a group holiday, you might have witnessed a couple who have that kind of dynamic, that they're going through a difficult time and, you know, everything's sort of spoken with gritted teeth and it's kind of painful to watch. But the brilliance of that is it's so true to life. It's horrific. I feel the pain of her character having to she does everything she's like you say she's looking after the kids she's got she's got parents at home that she has to deal with and she has She has to do it all with a smile on her face. And she has to do that because otherwise she will fall apart, which is maybe why they have put this kind of Greek thing in, which I didn't enjoy.

1:40:10Steph:I didn't like that. I didn't need it because there's a scene where they take, you know, mushroom oil and stuff. You know, that's really funny. And they're, you know, kind of they're talking and, you know, those kinds of things do happen on group holidays. People all get together and they decide, oh, we're going to like try mushrooms and let's all, you know, do mad stuff together. But this is what happens when it gets massively out of hand. Oh, completely. Didn't you? I just, I warn you, I can bang on about this. This series started last weekend, so it's been on a while. Yeah. We couldn't do it because it was embargoed until it came out.

1:40:38I'm so glad we're doing it now. I've watched the whole thing. Have you finished it yet?

1:40:41Steph:I haven't, but I will. I will. This is a show where you watch the first episode and you think, this cannot possibly sustain eight hours, but it does. The thought definitely occurred to me. But honestly, I guarantee you, James, I think you'll really enjoy it. No, this is his health. Well, we'll come on to that. Yeah. I know it's cringe. It fails the Bellen test spectacularly. And the fringe test, I'm sure. There's a lot of cringe stuff going on as well. But I think it's so good and the characters are so clever, cleverly drawn. Leia, the nanny, the French nanny. Oh, she's great. She's hysterical.

1:41:12She does not give a shit.

1:41:14Steph:She refuses to watch over the kids. And I mean, she's got that, what they've done is they've given her kind of, what is, I suppose, a stereotypical French attitude towards kids. and she's like I mean it's been on so can I say what happens to the husband Jessica Raine's husband can I say that what happens what happens to him to why he's so unhappy and what had happened to him what he reveals so he reveals that you know he's been desperately unhappy and then she turns to him and she just says but you didn't die and it's just one she gets the best one liners she's fantastic yeah she's brilliant and then you've got these two very spoilt posh rich people couple played by Dolly Wells and Tom Goodman Hill.

1:41:56Dolly Wells' character is called Flick.

1:41:58Steph:Yeah. It's just perfect. And they are kind of this presence. They've been living there on this island for years and they've got a massive, massive mansion. And to start with, you just see they bump into them and you see them, you meet them as these two really annoying people and then they invite them to this huge bacchanalian party at their massive mansion in that halfway through the series, maybe episode four or five. And it's such a great... The whole episode is at this party and it's phenomenal. you know and it's all just stuff like what it's like to be a party when you're an outsider you're like who are these fucking freaks and what the fuck is going on with them it's just I think it's I think it's borderline up there with White Lotus and there's no greater compliment from me just in particularly the characters like I think it again the Greek thing is my one but that's the kind of thing you'd get in White Lotus by the way that imagery that you said imagery so that's the one talking point but for the rest of it I absolutely loved it and I loved how even when it gets quite silly or what James might call silly towards the end where certain things happen you think oh really?

1:42:55Like there's suddenly people have to swim quite far out to a thing. I won't try not to spoil anything. I'm not sure they can do that. Stuff like that happens. You believe it because the characters are so well drawn. They are all so three-dimensional. Yeah. I think it's brilliant.

1:43:10Steph:I just think it's not necessary the green thing because it is because it is like fascinating to watch these people. James please tell us. I didn't mind the Greek thing. Oh, how random. Yeah, that didn't worry me at all. You know, I'm... Add a bit of fancy and I'm there. Give me Greek mythology and I'm actually more invested than I was previously. I felt your pain for this. Particularly along with the boobs out. To be honest, that person isn't in the first episode. Oh, okay. But I thought it was fine. But I only saw the first episode. So, but it didn't compel me to watch more of it. I've got to be honest.

1:43:48I thought it was okay. But again, part of that is because every single person in it is absolutely loathsome, with the sole exception of that one character. But she's the only one you don't take an instant quite visceral dislike to. Hugh Skinner? Jacob?

1:44:04Steph:Oh no, he's really annoying. He's a swat. Because you just think, why would you do that to your best friend? Yeah, he's a better... Leila Files said, she's fine. But he's incredibly self-absorbed. That's true. completely without any thought for other people he's a very funny man he's very selfish also like there's a part of me that like I think I found it quite triggering where they turn up at this apartment and they're the last ones there and they get the shittest room and he's like and he's clearly really annoyed she's like no it's fine it's fine I was like I'm annoyed on your behalf like I am I'm seething here in this terrible room yeah I enjoyed part of it and there's like the whole thing with the weirdly it wasn't the Greek stuff it was the whole thing with the mushroom oil and the stuff that goes on during that I was just like I'm not sure this was needed.

1:44:49I think you could have had human drama without mushrooms.

1:44:52Steph:No, you can't because that's the kind of thing that happens on Greek holidays. But you all take mushrooms and start doing stuff. and start doing crazy. They do. People do stuff like that. I think we go on very different holidays. The Greek mythology, the mythical creature stuff doesn't happen, but people do. When adults of a certain age get together, they all go completely looping. You know that brilliant scene where they're deciding and Jessica Rain's character goes, well, I'll do it if you do it. and that is what happens. It must have been, I was out with some friends recently and one of those conversations came up and I was just shaking my head and going, absolutely not.

1:45:26What are you talking about?

1:45:28Steph:I'm that person. I'm like, no, no, but I'll just watch you laugh. Yeah, you do what you want and I'll be sitting here with my Diet Coke. Thanks very much. But yeah, so I did, I think it was good. Yeah, but I didn't, you know, it didn't get me. I didn't get like massive White Lotus vibes from it, I've got to be honest. But Boyd, you know, highly commended to you because you've watched all of this you've watched all of Tiptoe you are the MVP oh thank you except he's watched none of Yellowstone retracted some would say my price is right but look let's not talk about go on I was just going to say I think you didn't love it but a lot of people have been coming up to me and saying have you watched this morning alone we had a chat with one of our colleagues yeah our friend Claire literally came up and she went have you watched all of it it's amazing it's the thing that people are talking about I think everyone except James is talking about it I mean is it the thing they've been talking about because first of all it's now we've already said it's basically on now isn't it it's all on iPlayer all on iPlayer but look we've been building up to it it's time for the main event I know it's time for the main event because it's time to talk about La Brea yeah right I have so many notes on this finally this week it's the moment you've been waiting for La Brea now this is a series that sees wait for it a sinkhole open up in downtown LA we've all been there we've all been there right by the La Brea Tar Pits A whole load of people fall in and get transported back to prehistoric times.

1:46:51Now, there's a lot to unpack here. In case you are unaware, La Brea, which is a network sci-fi show, aired on NBC in the US in September of 2021. Its second season, and it did get one, aired in 2022, and it even had a third season in 2024. Now, its first season, we should say, also dropped very quietly in the UK on Paramount Plus back in August of 2022. So it's not even day being here for the first time, but nobody noticed. But however, Sky have, in their infinite wisdom, acquired this. And they are dropping, as I understand it, seasons one and two, but not three as a box set, unless it is all three.

1:47:36Maybe it is all three, but I only saw one and two mentioned. It may be three as well. Anyway, it's dropping as a box set on Sky 1. Yes. That sounds right. Yes, that's right. Now, creator David Applebaum pitched this way, way back during the pandemic as the new Lost. And he was so brazen about it, there is even a line referencing Lost in this first episode, which I'm saying is a bold move. Yes. Steph, please wax lyrical about the modern masterpiece that is La Brea.

1:48:09Steph:Okay. I spent a large portion of my time watching this thinking is this a parody show is this is this actually a real show I would like to say that one of my biggest fears in life is falling into a hole no no no I'm serious like I worry about that quite a lot you know it's like you see people on like Greek islands and they accidentally like fall into a massive hole and then they can't get out. Didn't a woman in New York... It happened the other day and I read it to you. Yes, that's right. You told me. I was like... She fell down a manhole. Boy, someone's fallen down a manhole. This is one of my biggest fears.

1:48:50Steph:Falling down manholes, falling down just holes that appear anywhere, things that people haven't covered up. I worry about that quite a lot. Anyway, let's not... You know baby Jessica when she fell down the hole? Anyway, let's not talk about that. But it is one of my biggest fears. So this for me was quite triggering. It was quite triggering. However, this is the corniest. I mean, everything about it is corny. Everything about it is predictable. Everything about it is so... It's like a B, it's like a D movie of Jurassic Park mashup. It's almost like they've gone back in time to another era. But one of the things that's so crazy is throughout this whole first episode, the mum's hair it maintains I love that this is what you've latched on to it's absolutely ridiculous to think that a woman could fall into another world and her maintain her tongued hair for the whole of the episode tongued, she's got it all tongued it's just ridiculous maybe she's got tongs in her pocket no injuries, no visible injuries she's wearing a blazer at one point And, like, it's so ridiculous.

1:50:08Steph:Okay, so, hair and outfits staying totally intact for all of them. You know, when they hone in, the first thing she does when she falls down the hole, this massive hole, is check for cell phone reception. I mean, we all do it. Fair enough, yeah. That's fair enough. How does her phone... That's one of the few realistic moments in the whole thing. Oh, my God. No, no, no, no. Okay. This is a two-screen show, 100%. Because she doesn't know yet. she's gone back to 10 ,000 years or whatever it is but I would say if you're going back in time and you believe that you can outrun a pack of vicious wolves and then you actually do outrun a pack of vicious wolves you've really got to you've just got to be like what the hell this show is absolutely insane it is insane not to mention the dad who's not in the sinkhole is having these you know these visions of what's happening I mean it's just It's absolutely mental, this show.

1:51:07Steph:It's just completely insane. And every time I was thinking, this can't be an actual show. That said, that said... That said, Steph watched the whole season. No, because I thought the concept was really good. Did you? I thought, this is a good concept. They fall down a massive, massive hole and some people know about the hole and they go, you know what we're going to... And I watched the trailer for what happens next and obviously they're going to go down the hole and find out what happens. but yeah the other thing is everyone seems to be able to find each other with relative ease you know they're at a sight of a massive sinkhole people are going dangerously close to that sinkhole the people that are in LA and not worrying or falling in themselves and also like when they're in the other world they just have to give a couple of shouts and then they find the person but all of the no don't go oh my god don't let him die you know all of that kind of stuff it's just I mean it's awful it's the parody thing I think is fair comment it's so bad you almost it almost feels like it's intentional it's got the Sharknado feel to it oh it's absolutely Sharknado so my final point on this is it is enjoyable to watch is it though yeah it's awful it's so awful I mean no I beg to differ it's not massively enjoyable but it's like this is kind of you can watch it you can it's not so bad it's good it's so bad it's so bad it's so bad you want to watch some of it with your fingers oh yeah it's cringe for the reasons that they don't intend it it's kind of funny in the fact that it's the parody what I think is really funny about it is that the guy clearly came up with this whole concept and he went you can imagine him pitching it to the executives going so this is massive single in LA right and you know and then they fall down and they go back it's 10 ,000 years and so the people down the city are living 10 ,000 years previously and then the people living in the ordinary day.

1:53:02And it's like he didn't think beyond that. He didn't think of the consequences. How do you make a, I mean, quite how they've mined three seasons of this shit. It's extraordinary that this got renewed. Isn't it? Extraordinary. How the hell have they turned that into the number of episodes that there are? 30 episodes of this in existence. Did you enjoy it?

1:53:24Steph:No. No, no. From the point of the disbelief of it. I enjoyed the first 20 minutes. I enjoyed watching the not very well done sinkhole scene, which is a bit like, remember 2012, the film? Yes, yes. 2012 has a brilliant opening, a half hour, I would say, depicting what would happen if the end of the world is coming and earthquakes and everything. Every disaster movie trope you could possibly think of is in the first 20, 25 minutes of 2012. And they're kind of all in the first 5, 10 minutes of this. Yes, but Roland Emmerich had a significantly larger budget. Well, exactly, that's what I was going to say.

1:53:58So I kept thinking, I was watching it on my laptop, and I was thinking I might need to call James to get the, is the CGI just terrible looking on my laptop, or is it actually just terrible?

1:54:07Steph:Oh, it's very much like a school project. Yeah, and it's like Sharknado level, because all those Sharknado films, what's interesting is they're all kind of made because you can get really cheap CGI now, clearly, and you can do anything. You can have flying sharks, and I'm surprised they didn't have flying sharks in this. I mean, I could have made this show, 100%. Yeah, so it just has a cheap and kind of cheesy quality to it right from the beginning. And every single moment of it is just cheese, layer upon layer of cheese and stupidity. And I could not deal with watching another episode. Oh, no, I don't think anyone should watch it.

1:54:41Because you said it was fun.

1:54:42Steph:It was kind of enjoyable. What I'm saying is I'm not thinking, oh, God, that's 45 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back. It was an experience to watch it, but I don't think anyone else should watch it. I was awestruck by how terrible it was. You almost want to stand up and applaud how bad it is because the CGI is atrocious. The dialogue is toe-curlingly awful. The acting is extraordinarily bad. Yeah. It fails on every single level. I bet Peter says some... And it got three seasons. Yes, but that's my point, that there is something. But the plotting is nonsense as well. And the decisions the characters make are inexplicable.

1:55:25And it's just...

1:55:26Steph:Okay, well, let's go back to a point that we often make then, because obviously some people enjoyed this, is it because it's so unbearably predictable that people find it easy to watch? It's a kind of comforting disaster. I think there was a certain groundswell of it's so bad, it's good, hate watching going on. There you go then. I do think that that is something that happened. And certainly what I looked up on the internet tends to bear that out. But I just like, I don't understand that. No, because the thing is, think about when this came out. yes, there was a pandemic going on. Absolutely. We all went a bit mad.

1:56:01It's fine.

1:56:01Steph:That is true. 2021. But this feels like a sci-fi channel show from like the late 90s. Like it really does. It genuinely has gone back in time to another era of network television. And it's just like, it's like the last two decades never happened for this show. But is that its charm? No. Charm is a strong word. I don't know. It's a characteristic. Everything is kind of charm-less is part of the problem. Okay, I'm just, I'm playing devil's advocate because I really don't want people to waste their time watching this. But there is some level of enjoyment that I think some people have if they watch it.

1:56:33Steph:Okay. Should you choose to. Okay. Just so. La Brea then, available as a box set on Sky One. It could be all three seasons if you're lucky. It's going out live on Sky One on Sunday night as well. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Wow. Nine o 'clock Sunday night. It's that or it's going on at the same time as Tiptoe. I think Tiptoe's gone. So our show of the week is La Brea. I would like it if some of the listeners would watch it and tell us if they also think it's terrible. Feel free. People will have watched it. Feel free to share with us your thoughts on the brayer. Yes, because I want to know what they believe are the redeeming features.

1:57:08Steph:Because there are some, and I do think, as I've said again, I do think some people will enjoy it. Not me. Not you personally. Or you. But others. Others may. Right, let's talk about what else is on this week. Mindy Kaling's new show, Not Suitable for Work, drops on Disney Plus on Tuesday, the second. What else have we got? The Witness drops on Netflix on Thursday and Cape Fear comes to Apple on Friday. I'm hoping we'll be reviewing that on Pilot Plus. We will see how that shakes out. Anything else I've missed there, Boydie? No, I think that's about it. That is about it. Oh, okay. Fine. And our pick of the week is...

1:57:44Steph:Yellowstone! Yellowstone! Bloody hell. But tiptoe. Oh, tiptoe. Absolutely. fantastic that is it for this week's Pilot TV podcast we hope you enjoyed yourselves as ever social medias at Pilot TV Pod you know the rest please leave us a five star rating if you haven't already this podcast has been going since like fucking 2018 if you haven't left us a five star review at this point what are you doing so please please go ahead and do that and we will be back next week for Chex Notes some shows I don't know but we'll come up with some stuff yeah yeah we will won't we Steph yes we will we will we will my rip in the meantime Steph and I have some Yellowstone to watch it's time to get those Stetsons on get those horses saddled up and we're back to Montana for the Dutton Ranch if you want to hear more about that do subscribe to Pilot Plus otherwise if you absolutely don't want to hear about that we'll see you on Monday Pilot Out