Waiting For The Out, His And Hers, and Silent Witness

25:39But the device he's deployed, which is very interesting, is it's a four-parter, and each part is told from the point of view of a different kid, a different character. Nice. So that is a really interesting kind of twist on the narrative, if you like. It's directed by Mark Munden, who did Utopia, and he's a very visual, kind of has a visual stylist, if I can put it that way. But the funny thing was, I will review it properly, there was a screening at the BFI that I went to on Monday, night and they had um mark mundan the director and jack thornwell on the panel and the producer but the cast is essentially 25 about 25 kids ranging from like five six seven year olds through to 14 15 year olds right and they were all there at this prem this bfi screening and i'm never it was pandemonium it was so funny it was literally like if you go to the bfi have you been to the the foyer area was like literally dozens and dozens of kids and their families oh my god did They have like a pick-and-mix bar just to keep them.

26:37They're always all... I was like, what is going on? And they literally have to fight your way through these kids. Bring out the kiddie crack. Then the poor guy, the guy who runs the BFI TV screening events like this, always does a speech at the beginning, you know, to thank the BBC and to kind of intro the show. And honestly, getting the bloody... These kids to quiet them down and focus and shut the fuck up while he's really... I said to him afterwards, you did a really good job of just patiently waiting for them all. I've never seen anything like it. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

27:06a really posh screening of this thing and everyone's, you know... It's like herding cats. Herding cats. It was very funny. So, that is what I've been watching. James? I'm going to keep this super brief because we're about four hours into the podcast and we haven't started it yet. Who's that? Yours. I also, obviously, watched Night Manager last week, so I won't talk about that. I have been pressing on with Steel and enjoying it an awful lot. I've nearly finished Steel. I think I've got one episode left to go, but that's an absolute laugh. I said laugh riot. It's a laugh. and it is a riot. It's not a laugh riot because it's not a comedy but it's a lot of fun.

27:39Yes. I actually finished it. Oh, did you? Yeah. And it is really fun. It's really fun. It's a really fun show. It goes in such a different direction after the opening. Oh, it does. Does it? Oh, I watched two. It's absolutely batshit to the point where there's no resemblance to reality. Proudly batshit. Yeah, it's one of those, definitely. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's a little bit heightened. I also finished The Penguin which I was unprepared for. Like, the ending of that is really bleak. Like, it's like, and not beak, because, you know, Penguin. But, sorry. It's very, very, it's really, like, it's a real downer.

28:15I was quite, I was quite thrown. I mean, in many ways, quite bold, quite audacious, the way they finish it. But it's, yeah, it was quite something. It left me kind of a little bit like, you know those things where you finish it and you're staring at the credits, like, in a funk, just like, huh, okay. Is there another series coming? Unclear. I don't imagine so, but there have been discussions about maybe, possibly, perhaps, but I don't think there's anything concrete going on. Christian Milioti, I think, gets asked about it all the time. But, yeah. I watched the actors on Actors. I'm sorry, I'm going to stop going on about the actors on Actors shorts, but I did watch the Colin Farrell one where Jesse Buckley talks to him about his performance in Penguin and it's really good.

28:50Because I did, I was watching that because the prosthetics are amazing. Like, genuinely amazing. Like, you would watch that and you would not think it's a man wearing prosthetics. But then the other question is, like, it's also you would never ever in a million years know Colin Farrell was in it unless you knew Colin Farrell was in it which begs two questions what I mean on the one hand why do you are an actor like Colin Farrell if you're going to render him unrecognisable and if you are an actor like Colin Farrell why do you want to be in something when you're unrecognisable and you've got to go through however many hours of prosthetics but equally the performance is extraordinary and it's you know how like again films Heath Ledger as the Joker he had those little mannerisms like the licking of his lips and things like that.

29:31And Farrell does that a lot in that he does a very specific top lip lick from right to left quite regularly. And it gives the Penguin this kind of slightly fidgety, shifty kind of demeanor. It gives him a real quality. And I think it's genius. He's no Danny DeVito though, is he? Oh, no Danny DeVito. What in turn of iconic penguins? No, I think we said this when we reviewed it. We did review it, didn't we? It is so weird that he's unrecognizable and it kind of does work. It's so good. I think because we all know it's him, do you know what I mean? Yes. It kind of, you're like, oh, okay, Colin Farrell's doing this.

30:05Because it's not his face, it's not his voice, it's not his physique, it's not his gait, his demeanor. There is nothing of Colin Farrell that you would recognize in that performance except that it's an extraordinary performance. Yeah. Yeah, which does give it the kudos, I think. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, very, very good. And the last thing I watched randomly was two episodes of Fawlty Towers. Oh, that was nice. It's hard to say why. That is random. It is hard to say why. And it's always on gold, isn't it? Always, yeah. It runs on repeat. I think it's the law, actually. You're not allowed to not have it on.

30:35You watched two episodes? At some point. Yeah, I watched two episodes. Funnily enough, the episodes I watched were The Germans and Communication Problems, which are famous for what reason, Boydie? They are in the play we saw together on the West End stage. Yes. Those are the two episodes that make up the play, and that is part of the reason why I watched them. Yeah. Because they've blended them together to turn them into the stage production, because they're two very good episodes. You two went on a date. Yes, we had a theatre date. Yeah, it's true. Wow. Okay, let's... What snacks did you have at that theatre date?

31:04I think a pack of crisps, I'm pretty sure. I think I had Maltesers. Yeah, maybe. On one of my dates with Boyd, we sat next to Julia Davison. It was one of the greatest moments of my life and I was so excited because she took a fruit pastel from me. Did she? Oh, yeah. But did you offer it or did she just take it? I said, well, I could feel Boyd looking at me as if to say, don't fucking say anything stupid or try not to speak. and I went, would you like a fruit pastel? And she went, oh yes, I would. And she took a fruit pastel. She was a delight. What was that show? I can't, I think it was a musical.

31:37We were at some sort of musical, which seems weird because you hate musicals. What was going on there? I don't know, but it was wonderful. Once again, bringing us back to the subject at hand, which is Chex Notes television. So let us move on to this week's listener question and we're going to start before we do with a listener response. and this one comes from Mel who last week's podcast was largely dedicated to and Mel says you guys no one told me I'd get a whole episode dedicated to me for three and a half quid worth every penny thank you for all the suggestions you were pretty much spot on about all the things you thought I'd probably seen you hit the nail on the head with Colin from Accounts that was exactly the type of show we loved and we're looking for more of a good handful that we haven't seen including the Canadian one Steph I'm also going to have a rewatch of 2012 and W1A thanks Boyd Steph in answer to your question about my age I think I'm more Boyd's vintage although not 100 % sure my first TV as a kid was black and white if that gives you a steer please can we have a Mel section every week P.S.

32:37James although your list was full of dramedies and kind of missed the point yes thank you Mel it did give me some ideas for non-bedtime TV P.S. I pretty much always listen while exercising so thank you very much wow so basically what she's saying is you're completely useless not to the point list has now become useful. I mean, that's nice. If that's your takeaway, then fine. I love Mel. Mel is a star. Mel's amazing. Well, that is not this week's listener question. Sorry, Mel. This week's listener question comes from Annika Sourney and Annika says, Hi Pod, after binging heated rivalry, which is totally worth all the hype, I'd love to know which TV shows you think portray sex in a realistic and sensitive way and which shows failed to do this.

33:21Surely Normal People is the pinnacle for its depiction of sex. This after Boyd has been talking about the recent, I'm not even sure you're talking about that scene, but there's obviously there's been much buzz about the threesome from a recent episode of Industry. So sensitive depictions of intimacy on television. Can I dive in and just say, okay, firstly, sorry, I seem to have a cold just in one nostril, which is really annoying. Too much information. I'm so sorry. Any kind of nasal blockage is annoying. It's really annoying. Oh my God. Oh my God. What? What is happening? Okay, sorry, I'm going to dive straight in.

33:55The subject at hand, television. Okay, right. So TV, I'm going to dive right in and I'm going to say something that you're both going to disagree with. Oh, God. But I'm going to say it anyway. I truly believe, not every scene, of course, because some of them are insane and not every episode because some of them are insane. Sex and the City dealt with real sex amazingly. Oh, no, you're absolutely right, yeah. I agree. In the original TV show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It forefronted female sexuality, which wasn't something that was generally fixed on television. You're forefronted, you're saying?

34:25No, forefronted. I mean, it may have forefronted, I didn't see that. I don't think I've ever heard that word. It forefronted. No, I think you've invented it. Did I make it up? I think so. Forefronted. It's possible I've made that word up. No, I like it. Do you know what? I'm going to own it. I'm going to keep using it. It forefronted female sexuality, and I actually think that was a very powerful thing that it did back then. Yeah, and I am actually a really big fan of the early seasons. So see, if you go back and watch season one and season two, they're grittier. Oh, yeah. dialogue, would you agree?

34:51Absolutely, I always say this. It was a really good, proper, edgy, bold, all those words, show. Absolutely. So I think that that is, for me, and I totally agree, normal people, yeah, absolutely, that does. Realistic sex in that is amazing. But I do think that Sex and the City, unfortunately for lots of people, because of what happened with them, just like that and everything, and people were calling it hate watch and all of that kind of stuff, it loses some of the credit that it really warrants in its earlier seasons. And because of the terrible films. And because of the terrible films. Pissing in the pool, boys.

35:26As I've always said, you can retroactively destroy something by building on it in a bad way. Yeah, and I think that's what they did ultimately, which is unfortunate. But, you know, I still actually think just like that dealt with their sex scenes well. No? Do you not agree with that? Yeah, I mean, sometimes it did, yeah. It was trying to go for the same approach. And I think, yeah, it certainly was probably one of the better elements of Unjust Like That. They retained that quite kind of, you know, open-minded look at sexuality. Yeah, like, just the general, I really did enjoy Cynthia Nixon's whole sexual exploration.

36:05And also, I do, I think Charlotte and Harry, you know, sex when you're a married couple and you've been married, I thought that they dealt with that really effectively as well. Yeah. So, and I'm just going to say, a show that I think is not dealt with it so well but is absolutely incredibly entertaining is The Hunting Wives which is basically porn yes we did review that on the podcast yeah there's a lot of boobitch in The Hunting Wives isn't there there's a shit ton of boobitch it's quite old school in that sense it's like something from the 70s it's like an erotic drama isn't it it's not realistic in any way oh no It's the most unrealistic sex.

36:45As I pointed out, there are two scenes in the opening episode alone in which one character is spying on two people having sex. That one. And it's like, yeah, as if it happens on a constant half-hourly basis, you know, in the lives of these people. What are the chances that you're just looking out the window and you're just like, oh! And the people having sex in full view of the window are trying to keep it secret. So they choose to have it in full view of the window in case there's anyone who wants to have a look. If you watch that, you just think everyone in small-town America is having orgies all the time in their jacuzzis.

37:16I can't say that they're not. No, that may be accurate. It's hard to say. Okay, thoughts that I had on this particular subject. This is not generally a good example of this. That's a great way to answer a question. This is going to be like your suggested comedy dramas of last year. No, I'm going to say a show that I would say was not sensitive in its depictions of sex would be Game of Thrones. However, season seven, Grey Worm and Missandei, that is a very clear exception to that. That is a great scene. I couldn't agree with you more. That is such a sensitively, brilliantly done scene. God, do you know what, Natalie Emanuel, when she takes off her thing, and do you know the scene?

37:58Yes, I think I know the scene with Jacob Anderson. Yes. And she takes off her clothes and she just stands before him naked. That's beautiful. That's a really beautiful moment. It's a great, great sequence. I love Natalie Emanuel. She has a great figure. Thank you. But there's a lot of sex position in Game of Thrones. There's a lot of sexual assault in Game of Thrones. Some of it is lurid, some of it is not. I wouldn't say it's generally delicately handled, but that one in particular is. Sex education, I would say, is a really good example of this. No, that's on my list, yeah. Because it has this overwhelming lack of shame about sexuality and sexual practices and kink and all sorts of things.

38:34And, you know, whether it be, you know, they tackle masturbation. Do you know that the beginning of... Are you about to do a list of all of them? No, but remember beginning of season two where you get that incredible Ace of Butterfield wanking montage, which is like nothing you've ever seen before. But it deals with things like vaginismus and stuff like that, which again, you don't generally see dealt with on television. It deals with what? Vaginismus. What the hell is vaginismus? You've never had a vaginismus? Well, to be fair, I guess it's not. It's dealt with on the show. It is a contracting of the vaginal muscles that prevents...

39:03Oh my God. Why did you have to do... Why did you have to do the thing? Can I just say, It's very childish of me, but I never thought I'd see James mansplaining vaginismus to Steph. It's classic. But he did the fish. It was a contracting... I don't know. Look, this has all gone horribly wrong. We don't know if the video's working this week, but I really hope it is. And the thing is, I'm the only one here with a vagina. I don't know why I find that so offensive. Anyway, let's move on. But sex education was one of the very first shows to have an intimacy coordinator. Nathan, thank you very much. Yes.

39:37So I was famous for that. Yes. We've broken Steph. And the intimacy coordination for that went on to work on Normal People. True story. Oh, there you go. Yeah, there you go. Go on, Boydie. Okay. The show that changed, I think Sex and Citizens, you're absolutely right. Sex and Citizens... I know what you're going to say. I'm just saying. Please let it not be that genesis. No, I'm not saying that. Girls. Oh, I didn't know what you were going to say. Even Gunham's Girls. And it infuriates me. Now, Girls gets left out of lots of conversations about... Girls is one of the greatest TV shows of our time, and particularly brilliant in its depiction of sex, which was not particularly...

40:16I wouldn't say sensitive, because I think once you try and deliberately be sensitive, then you're kind of already getting into the realms of, you know, soft focus, you know, kind of sexual scenes. But in terms of realism, and absolutely boldly going there with all kinds of sex, almost the list that James was halfway through going. It was phenomenal and groundbreaking. And she just got the tone so brilliantly right in all the sex scenes in that show. And pretty much every episode deals with that. Do you know one of those scenes I love? Jemima Kirk, I think, was head and shoulders above everybody else in all the sex scenes.

40:53Because obviously she was quite promiscuous. Yeah, she did a lot of them. There's an angry... And she was very... I'm going to say she was very generous with her body in that show. Oh, they were. Yeah, they were. For me, she had some tough things to deal with and I thought she was excellent in that. But the angry sex scene between her and Adam Driver's character towards the end of the show, I thought, was absolutely sensational where they're breaking the apartment and everything and then they ultimately end up having sex. It's just amazing. And actually, the first sex they have when they get together is also really good.

41:26I'm really gutted I didn't think of that. but maybe that's because of what you said because it gets left out of things I love that show because it's a woman it's Lena Dunham's masterpiece and yeah it gets left out it's one of the greats I would just mention again sensitivity maybe not but in terms of just I'm trying to avoid the phrase balls to the wall but I can't in terms of full on out there sexuality The White Lotus I mean that is a show I think all of I think sex education that you mentioned girls is it delicately handled on The White Lotus well no that's my point once you're trying to delicately handle something I think so I'm I'm claiming it the original correspondents say that also just really outstanding the good sex scenes I think so to speak so to speak yeah I don't think sensitivity and all of that is what they're going for but in terms of realism and boldness The White Lotus takes takes all the awards for me okay we should mention Careers Folk see that's what I thought you were going to mention oh no I'm going to oh sorry I'm sorry finally Careers Folk totally changed the face of television Oh, you were going to say that?

42:28Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I was leaving it to last. I was leaving it to last. I don't know why. Yeah, absolutely extraordinary. And again, is that the word sensitive that the correspondent used? I believe that's the word that was used, yes. Realistic and sensitive. I mean, I guess, I don't think sensitivity is that important. I think realism is. And just in terms of just full-on out there daring raunchiness, shall we say, queerest folks set the bar. James, why are you looking at me like that? That was not a raunchy look. There are cameras here. There's proof. Yeah. So, yes, 100 % queer as folk changed television.

43:05That's a good point you make, though, because actually, not all sex is sensitive, is it? So why would it need to be? I do think you're right. Realism is really important. I think the amazing thing about queer as folk is that is the kind of sex that people were having at that time. So why wouldn't we want to? But crucially, something that wasn't depicted on television. But equally, the L word is another good example of that, which was, the L word would have been, what, early noughties, I want to say? I think so, yeah. And again, just like forefronting sort of queer female relationship and sexuality, that wasn't something people thought.

43:35It's really only in that word. Forefronting is too close to full frontal. So it's confusing every time you say it. It also forefronted full frontal. That was fine as well. Other ones I was going to say, when you talk about sort of like teen sex, euphoria and skins are probably two good examples. Euphoria definitely isn't sensitive. No, but in terms of realistic depictions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Oh, actually, big boys is very good on that front. That's a very good depiction of university sex. I don't know how much sex you guys had in university, but I'm just saying that was a good depiction of it.

44:06That's a very personal question. At no point did I get a cock in the eye. No, you say that now. But sure, if that was your experience at university, who am I to judge? That's for another X-rated podcast. That's for the only fans. And on that point, finally, just to reiterate again, industry industry is absolutely driven by sex scenes they're absolutely key and crucial to the whole tone of the show and they are extraordinary is there a lot of sex with Jon Snow in that yeah totally Kit Harington I said that when I was talking about what I've been watching he absolutely he embraces the sex scenes to an extraordinary extent but okay well I'm definitely going to get it particularly the sex scenes what she's asking is do they forefront the full frontal they do forefront the full frontal in fact almost that it's interesting because his His character, Henry Muck, the brilliantly named Henry Muck.

44:56Henry Muck. Anyway, go on. Yeah, exactly. He is at the forefront of the whole season's sexual peccadillos, if you like. It's kind of about him and his sexuality. Okay. I'm trying not to get anything away. Peccadillos. Peccadillos, yeah. Thank you. Good word. Right, what else was I going to say on this? I was going to mention fellow travellers. Oh, yeah, good call. Toe suckage. Yes. Extraordinary toe suckage, in fact. Absolutely, yeah. In fact, in that. Also, not being funny, The Americans was a really interesting show for this because their use of sex as a weapon, as spies, but then also their relationship and the sexuality depicted in the show, I thought was, again, it was more realistic than sensitive.

45:36But that was a rare depiction, I would say, of an on-screen televisual 69. Right. If I lowered the tone. Moving on. Yeah, let's move on. I think it's time to move on. Anyway. Great question. Great question. Thanks for sending that in. If you would like your question read out either here or on the glorious Pilot Plus. Do send them in to the email address pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. Time for this week's news. And what do you have for me, Boydie? Well, we've already talked about how Kay and Steph's favourite, Shrinkage. Oh, no, don't do that. Shrinking. Shrinking, sorry. It's been renewed for a fourth season, just as the first season arrives.

46:20third season arrives sorry slip of the tongue talking of sex scenes oh my god sorry oh my god sorry and also in Apple ongoing Apple half hour kind of half hour comedy kind of comedy news Ted Lasso season 4 they've released pictures and photos pictures and photos not just photos not just pictures pictures and photos both of them and they've confirmed a summer release for the highly awaited long awaited new season of Ted Lasso in which Jason Sedakis' character, Ted, is back at AFC Richmond, but this time training the women's team. So the focus of this season is going to be on women's football, one of the men's football, which I think is a really clever idea.

47:03I mean, it's not that clever, but, you know, it's a good idea. It's a really basic idea, but it's going to be entertaining. No, it's a good idea, because it changes, I think it will change the tonality of the show, etc. He's forefronting, they're forefronting... I can't believe he's stolen your word. They're forefronting women's football as opposed to male football. But all the core cast members, Hannah Waddingham, Juno Temple, Brett Goldstein, of course, Brendan Hunt, they're all back, it's been confirmed, for this new season. So it's just such a great... You see, I associate that show with shrinking because it's got a lot of talent across the different...

47:38Shares various talent, Brett Goldstein mainly, across the shows. And it's got a similar tone, I think, which you kind of want to hang out with. it's much the opposite of having the what was it called the test the prick test the Bellen test those shows Ted Lasso and Shrinking are the opposite of the Bellen test where everyone is kind of good and decent except Nate when he went wrong except Nate when he went wrong and even that was kind of jarring wasn't it because it was such a kind of wrongness in the middle of all the rightness that everyone else had right I'm holding up my hands to say that I've never watched Ted Lasso and I did admit I know I admitted this to Boy I know I know we've just been raising a child I feel like you would love it.

48:16Yeah. Well, that's what Boyd said. Boyd said you really like it. Do you know what his actual words were? It's like shrinking, but better. And I was like, Boyd... I mean, it is literally that, yeah. I don't want to get too much into this, but I've already told both of you that you haven't watched enough episodes of Shrinking to have an opinion. But I've watched more episodes of Shrinking than you've watched episodes of Ted Lasso. Thank you, Boyd. Point well made. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Right. We should point out that everyone who'd been petitioning for us to watch more Shrinking to Honor Kay, we did it in a very pilot TV way, where we reviewed it on Pilot Plus when Kay wasn't there.

48:47So that was nice and I'm sure she appreciated it. I know, I'm in talks with Kay to do a spoiler special though on shrinking. Okay, good. That'll be good. Of course it'll be good because shrinking's fantastic. Let's talk about Daredevil Born Again which is coming back on the 24th of March. Is it? Yes. Boyd, not impressed at all. Did you not enjoy Daredevil Born Again? I can't remember. I liked it, the episode, the first episode but I did not watch any more. I did not watch any more. Did you not? So I watched all of it. Yeah. It's kind of your job to watch it, because it's a Marvel show, isn't it?

49:16You have to watch it. As a Marvel shill, I obviously have to watch them all, yes. So I did watch it. Yes, I very much enjoyed it. I didn't love it. I thought it was three stars, but I liked it. Alex Godfrey was a bigger fan. In fact, he castigated me about this in the office this very morning. Oh. Because it's a new story that it's back. That it's back, and it's exciting. And because the official Empire review of Wonder Man uses the sentence, one of the best MCU shows to date. about Wonder Man. Oh, you didn't like Wonder Man, really? No, no, I thought it was fine. But we were basically discussing whether or not actually, although that statement initially jars with me, you think about it and go, actually, the bar's reasonably low across the board, so actually, maybe.

49:58It definitely is. Didn't the Empire Review give it four stars? Yes. Yes, and you'd give it three. I would give it three. So, yeah, I think it's a four-star show. I'm much more excited to carry on watching that than I was carrying on watching Daredevil, put it that way. I'd agree with that. Interesting. Interesting. Can I say something about SNL? Because, you know, I was excited and you couldn't have given a shit. Is this the British SNL? The British SNL. So I was excited because for some reason that had completely passed me by. But they've made some more appointments. So Lorne Michaels is exec producer, as I think you said he's heavily involved.

50:31And, right, this might not be exciting to you, but it's exciting to me. Paulie Lovejoy, musical director. Annie Hardinge, let me hope I'm saying that right, as costume designer, which is very important. and Kevin Fortune as, probably the most important, head of wigs, hair and make-up. I kind of know Annie and she's brilliant. She did Little Britain back in the day. She's worked with Man David a lot and other great comedies. She does a lot of great comedies down the years. So that shows how much they're putting into this, which is really, really exciting. And for my second bit of news, I talk about something which people might say is not really news, but I want to bring it up because I love this show.

51:05So, Boyd, did you watch Sugar? Yes. Colin Farrell. We reviewed it. We did. on the straight podcast. So I loved Sugar and as I said to James earlier, I feel that we should coin the term either Psycry, Psycry Fi or Cry Fi. One of those because it is a genre All of those together. All of those. Okay. So I was like, God, I feel like, when is that coming back? Because I knew it had been renewed and I just saw that there had been reports at the end of the year that they had new additions to the cast which were So, Jin Ha, Laura Donnelly and Tony Dalton have all been cast now as series regulars. They must be filming it now.

51:45And if anyone has any more information about it, I'd like to know. Well, Steph, it just so happens that I'm going to see every single major Apple person who works for Apple TV on Tuesday in Santa Monica. So, I'm sure we'll be able to report back on that one. Can you find out for me? It's my main mission. Right. There's one thing I'm going to do, apart from get, what's it called? A foundation thermos. Foundation goodies, foundation merch, finding out what the hell's happening with that show. Well, I'll tell you why, because it's doing one of the things that I hate, which I think is on the verge of leaving too long between season one and season two.

52:17Oh, but that's just standard, isn't it? It's already... How long are we going to have to wait for severance? I mean, it's going to be years, isn't it? Yeah, but I think with this show, where it is genre-busting, they need to keep the momentum slightly up. That needs to be your first... Actually, the only thing you need to do over there, as well as take pictures of your breakfast. Okay. and swipe me merchandise and goodie bags and snacks if you can but you don't want to bring back snacks from Santa Monica if they're particularly good snacks put them in a Tupperware bring them back and also I think secondly bringing in food I think is frowned upon I mean look you'll take that risk for me I know you will okay okay that was all I needed to say did you see the news because you're a massive Blue Lights fan that Richard Dormer is coming back I did and I thought that was a particularly interesting thing given what happened to Richard Dormer in the first season of that show however this is all flashback stuff.

53:07Yeah. So he's going to be in it, Jonty's going to be in it, the slightly, shall we say, privileged police officer who was in season one and a bit of season two whose name escapes me but you will tell me, won't you, Boyd? Which one are you talking about? Sorry. Boyd won't tell me. But anyway, she's going to be back as well and so it's going to fill in some sort of like retroactive continuity. Hannah McLean from Malpractice, the solicitor. A solicitor, Jen Robinson. Yeah, so that's it, Jen, because Jen was a police officer and then she became a solicitor and then she just sort of fell off the face of the earth but she's going to be back as well.

53:36Very, very excited because Blue Lights is one of the best things on television. Yes. Fabulous Neverwinter Watcher. Declan Lorne and Adam Patterson who are the co-creators say we're very excited to bring this series of Blue Lights. It reveals a lot of the dark secrets, examines what justice looks like in Belfast today and ties together the past, the present and futures of Grace, Annie and Tommy in an action-packed story. So yes, interesting. It is brilliant. It is absolutely a brilliant show. It's very good. Very, very good indeed. Have you got any new stories? No, I'm done with news. I just wanted to mention, I'm quite excited about this show, Vladimir.

54:10Do you know about this? This is a Netflix show from Sharon Haugen's production company. And it's got a really... Rachel Weisz is in it. She's the female lead. Leo Woodall from The White Lotus and that really entertaining show on... One Day. Thank you. One Day. No, the really entertaining show on Apple. Oh, you mean the other one? Prime thingy. Prime thing. Target? Prime suspect? Prime target. Prime something. Yeah, the prime number related mathematics forever we all have Leo Woodall and it's an eight part series in which she's married to John Slattery from Mad Men but she meets Leo Woodall and she immediately lusts after him as far as I can make out and she addresses to camera her feelings so it's got that fleabag style thing going on breaking the fourth wall exactly but Rachel Rice Leo Woodall and John Slattery what a cast I love John Slattery and that's March 5th On the Netflix for that limited series.

55:06Okay. Vladimir. There you go. I believe that calls an end to news. Yes. Excellent. Let's move on then to this week's reviews, this week's retro review section. And we will begin with Waiting for the Outs from Dennis Kelly, which is based on The Life Inside, colon, a memoir of prison, family, and learning to be free by Andy West. And this is Josh Finn. And as Dan, he's a teacher who gets a new job giving philosophy lessons in a men's prison. But you've probably heard this already or seen it for yourself by this point, to be honest. But this is not your average prison drama. and it is something altogether, I would say, more wholesome.

55:43Boydie, you have already talked about it on this show, so I can't call upon you. Steph, hum-er me. After having a good lock at this one, did you find it a little Confucius, or can it Foucault write-off? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I can only apologise. At least you made an effort. Thank you. I love you. Okay. Right, this has got a few touch points for me. a few good touch points because um as soon as anything has anything to do with fertility and i'm like oh i'm listening right because i like no because the main character is with a woman who's having fertility issues which is like this crazy subplot and he's like got a brother who's just had a baby and he's kind of so he's he's he's in a a time in his life where he's confused about his own existence and his future which makes it all the more enticing i enjoyed it but I don't think I enjoyed it as much as I thought I would.

56:43It's fine. He goes into the prison. You meet all these prisoners and they obviously all have backstories and there's reasons why they're really angry and one of them has a daughter and there's obviously a great backstory there. I only watched one of them, so I would just say that. And whilst he's in this prison giving this kind of lecture and trying to engage with these prisoners, There's the whole backstory of the girl that he's sleeping with who's having an embryo implanted is going on, and he's like, oh, no, I want to be a dad. So he's wrestling with some personal demons. Also interesting, but it didn't hold me.

57:23And, you know, I feel bad because I know somebody wrote in and said, this was great, and we missed it, and I was excited to watch it, but it didn't grab me. and I can't quite hit on the point that it didn't grab me. I don't know whether I didn't find the main characters engaging as I wanted him to be, but that may be because I only watched one episode, so I will just say that. It was fine. I didn't feel compelled to watch any more, though. Sorry, Boyd. I am disappointed. I might be disappointed with myself. Aghast. Aghast. Shocked. And honestly, appalled. Are you both? No, I know what you mean.

58:01I think it is an exceptional show, but I think probably you need to watch more than... The first episode sets the scene, it sets the tone, and you get the really interesting core of the memoir, which is that this guy's putting himself, this guy's had a bad experience with his dad and his brother to a lesser extent of prison and crime, etc., decides to put himself into prison, effectively, to talk to the prisoners in his group about highfalutin philosophy, of which James mentioned most of the philosophers that they cover in the show in his hilarious pun-filled introduction. So you've got him. I think he is a really interesting character, and I think Josh Finn is phenomenal, considering he played a complete idiot in the show with Martin Freeman, the cop show with Martin Freeman.

58:55Responder. Responder, thank you. He's also in, coming up, How to Get to Belfast, that Lisa McGee's new show. he's in that I'm scared to have him from Belfast thank you he's a brilliant actor because he's he is properly chameleonic if you can say this couldn't be more different this character who's a very smart clever guy teaching philosophy from the guy he played in in the Martin Freeman show so you've got him I think the depiction the scenes depicting him interreacting with the group about philosophy and about their lives and as it goes on I think it could seem like we've seen self-help scenes before we've seen you know this kind of thing before it's not entirely original that, you know, a drama built around, a film or TV drama built around someone teaching prisoners, interacting with prisoners in a kind of group setting.

59:39I think these scenes, though, are so smart and subtle and authentic and believable. And all of the characters, all of the prisoners are totally three-dimensional and not in any way stereotyped. I think it's really clever the way they... And you get to know bits of their stories as the six-part series goes on. I watched episode four, I think, recently, which has a really moving storyline with one of the prisoners wanting to send a message to his son to worship, and he wanted to read him a bedtime story. And it's so, yeah, exactly. You're right. I admit, I'm just going to interject and say, I admit that whilst I was watching it, I did wonder whether my enjoyment of it was because it was coloured by the fact that, obviously, being the editor of Crime magazine, I read a lot of crime all the time.

1:00:30And maybe the subtlety, maybe I thought, God, I can't fucking appreciate the subtlety of this, because I'm so bombarded with it. So I take all of that on board. You're numbed to the subtleties of crime. Because these are, you know, most of them are criminals. or, you know, they end up prison for various different reasons. But the way it deals with their crimes and them becomes is just really smart and clever and three-dimensional and not in any way kind of exaggerated or melodramatic. And that's what I love about it. Its tone is really beautifully established. And so in the scenes, sometimes there are scenes that are quite tense, you know, because with him and his brother, played by Stephen White, his brother's, you know, he's quite kind of off the cuff and emotional and, you know, annoyed about stuff.

1:01:15He's a much more... They're both dealing with trauma from their childhood involving their dad, and the way the two of the different characters deal with it is interesting and very different. And yet, in the end, what makes it clear is they're both suffering in their own ways from what happened with their dad. So I just think it's... And it hasn't got a big driving narrative. It is maybe partly why you've underwhelmed was because it is, you know, long scenes of people chatting about philosophy and their lives, which are the crux of the show, aren't inherently, you know, there's no car chases or, you know, explosions or stuff like that.

1:01:53What's worth saying is you're really basic and you just didn't understand. No, no, no. You know what? That is a fair point. And I think probably, I will get onto it in a minute, but I had, I watched it after I'd watched His and Hers. I was going to say the contrast. And I think, I do think that maybe has coloured my opinion. These two, and that's what I was going to say, I was going to finish my comments by saying you could not get two more divorced tonally things than that. Here's what we'll get to in a minute, which is just insane and ludicrously contrived and over the top and ridiculous with this, which is all about the authenticity and the realism and the subtlety.

1:02:29Well, to an extent. So, for example, you take Alex Fern's character, Keith, who is just improbably well-versed in philosophy and classics prisoner, who just, like, benefits of a classical education, who just sort of second-guesses him at every... Well, I think you're fine, actually, when Hume said this. He actually meant, like, you know, I think there were elements of, like, okay, you know how Aaron Sorkin writes incredible dialogue that no one would ever speak? I would say these are incredible scenes, which I don't think... Based on the memoir. It is based on a memoir. I do think that they have been elevated for the sake of drama, and I'm glad they have been, because I think they're incredibly effective.

1:03:05And obviously, I'm not saying all people in men's prison, they don't know philosophy. Of course they don't know. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that... Yes, you are. You're being very patronising towards prisoners. It takes a lot of clever people to commit a heist, and just saying that, and they're in prison. But to get caught as well. Oh, well, we just have a lot of cameras everywhere now. That's true. But no, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's just that in the same way that, you know, take Dawson's Creed, take The West Wing, you get people who are improbably articulate and very good at this stuff.

1:03:30I think there's an element of that here. But also, I think that's part of the joy in watching it. I think that scenes are wonderful because of that. And not all of the characters in that sort of like fall into that mold. Like there's, as you say, the guy with his daughter and there's a whole thing about that in the first episode, someone who wants to message their son. And yet they all, I think what it does is it shows that these people are more than the sum of their criminal past. Like they are complex human people with human problems. and it really humanizes them in a way that I find, you know, and I don't watch a lot of prison dramas because I find them quite traumatic, but there is a format.

1:04:04Prison dramas are normally quite harrowing, quite shocking. They're about assault and abuse and abject human misery. And this is not that. This is the opposite of that. It's about like the triumph of the human spirit and all these lovely things like that. But also, Josh Finnan is really, really funny. There's a whole thing with a shoe in the first episode, which kind of made me giggle. There's a dinner party scene that comes up, which people I think will enjoy. I just think it's a really, really well written, really well observed show. I'd be fascinated to know tonally how it plays with the memoir.

1:04:37Because it has a very heightened almost... It's not... I mean, how would you characterize this genre-wise? Because it's not the comedy. No, I think it's a wryly funny drama. I think it's just a drama, but I think it's a drama built on the wry humour of its main character and the situation she gets in. because there are moments Yeah, but also very believable Yeah, it's very subtle and it's organic None of it is silly in any way No, the S word does not come into play Yeah, it's grounded in reality Is it not a bit silly in points? I think, you know, when the blood in Hurts is... It's absurd, but I don't think it's necessarily silly Yeah, I think it's stuff that...

1:05:14Because he gets himself into scrapes, shall we say What's interesting about it, because there's a whole comment on kind of masculinity at the heart of this as well, isn't there? And this idea that because he's going into prison to teach he doesn't feel that his trainers are masculine enough, so he buys steel-toed work boots, and then fucks it up completely. And that in itself is inherently funny. And there's a weird sort of almost masculinity back and forth between the hyper-masculine prisoners and he, who's this philosophy lecturer who's very middle class, and his brother who has done time, right.

1:05:42And he's constantly seeing visions of his father as well, who was abusive and did time. So, you know, it's, yeah, I really, really, really, I get what people said people were saying this is a really special show and it will very likely be on a lot of people's shows of the year list and I think that is a fair description of it I think it's only six parts isn't it it's like short show I think it's a it's a must watch I do right okay well I'm just gonna say I have already said that I'm prepared to admit that my judgement may have been clouded so I'm going to go back and watch a couple more episodes of this okay I'm presuming by this time next week by the time we can do our next podcast you'll have watched all the episodes I would have watched all of them Of everything anyone connected to it has ever done.

1:06:25It's not, and I just, I do want to make a point. I do think everybody in it, it was very well acted. I just, I didn't, it didn't grab me. It didn't grab me, but I am prepared to admit that's probably because I was watching a lot of high octane at the time. You were on it, you were sucking on high octane. I was sucking on high octane, yeah. Waiting for the out then, which is available in its entirety on the iPlayer. And if you are not in the UK, I don't know how you watch it. I don't even know if you can. no it's a good question I don't know that'll be a boogle can you access the iPlayer outside of the UK no you can't no you cannot because you've got to you've got to be playing paying auntie cash haven't you that's right yeah I presume it'll be on like Britbox or I think BBC America one would think one of those one would think yeah next up in our mixtape of recent omissions we have the notorious and according to me critically annihilated his and hers on Netflix This is William Oldroyd's show, and it adapts Alice Feeney's novel of the same name.

1:07:26It sees John Bernthal and Tessa Thompson as exes from a small town in Georgia, and they both end up investigating a murder, one as a cop and the other as a hungry reporter. Steph has already talked about this one, but let us do a kind of his and hers, and we will begin with his and turn to you, Boydie. Well, I had watched, as I mentioned in last week's What You've Been Watching section, I'd watched the first couple of episodes of this already because it was one that we missed because Netflix didn't really make screenings available as far as I was aware. It suddenly arrived on the... Sometimes you get literally like 10 days notice suddenly a big show's arriving on Netflix and you haven't got time to review it.

1:08:06But we theorised that was because everyone thought it was rubbish. Well, and then there was the whole controversy about... Yeah, James reported that he'd seen all the reviews and they were all rubbish, even though actually they weren't all that rubbish. Some of them were, some of them weren't, as this is won't, to exaggerate these things. I don't know what you mean. Subscribe to Pilot Plus. Subscribe to Pilot Plus of James' all critics say it's terrible theories. Anyway, then I watched the rest of it. I've watched the whole entire thing. Have you watched the whole thing? I haven't watched the whole thing.

1:08:33I know you have, Steph. Anyway, you kind of have to see the whole thing. Yeah. Without, again, don't spoil anything. No, I'm not going to. Steady, Boyd. But from what I gather, it is a bit like smoke. it is thing after thing after thing. So, put it this way, you get to, in the final episode, I think there's six or eight, I think eight. No, there's six. No, only six. Short for Netflix. Anyway, you get to the sixth episode, oh, no, no, oh, the crime's been solved, and then, hold on a minute, there's another 40 minutes of this to go. It's a bit like, you know, Stranger Things finale, when there was an hour to go, and you thought the whole thing had been wrapped up.

1:09:12But no, and another thing. It's like, remember Steve Jobs, when he did his presentation to wrap all, always put the end, and another thing, we're just giving you a new iPhone. This has a whole new thing that happens in the finale. And you can't, it's so ridiculous that it does impact on the rest of the series because, well, you've got this fucking ridiculous ending. Obviously, it's from the novel. But I have to say that it is a weird, it's a really weird show because it just, the little details of it are bizarre. Like, it's got an overarching gimmick, which is that, as you explained in your intro, there's this crime.

1:09:51Both of the main protagonists, who are estranged husband and wife, played by Tessa Thompson and John Berthorne, know the victim. And they're both investigating it on their own terms. Her as a reporter for this news show. Him as an actual cop, a detective. And so you've got this gimmick. They're both seeing it from their point of view. And then you've got their various other kind of lovers and things to complicate matters. By the way, is it just me? or does Pablo Schreiber who's another major male character look almost exactly like John Bernthorpe talk about having a tie you think yeah he does really similar kind of quite long faced white similar aged like stubbly I'm not sure I see that I think they're really similar looking no I know they're definitely in the same vein put it that way like you know the bone structure yeah bone structure etc thank you thank you for supporting this but it kind of affects the show and it kind of makes sense in a way but just the performances and the direction and the way it's the way it's shot the way it's edited it's just weird i found it had a whole kind of peculiar tone to it that it wasn't quite that i can't quite put my finger on there are flashbacks to kids all these girls bullying each other at school that are kind of weirdly shot in an almost like soft focusy type effect but not quite because i think maybe like they're reading that in they were it's quite clear when there are flashbacks You don't need to be visually told because it's quite clear what's going on.

1:11:14And just the whole thing has a very strange, off-kilter tone to it. And yet it's very much a mainstream, self-referentially, borderline idiotic, but certainly out there crime thriller that knows, I think knows full well that it is ridiculous, particularly when it gets to that finale. And I absolutely had a whale of a time. I very much enjoyed it and I in no way regret devoting six hours more or less to my time despite all the apparently negative reviews that it had the annihilation the critical annihilation it's got but this is as we go back to I mentioned this a few weeks ago they love this stuff Netflix cannot get enough of these absolutely borderline preposterous self-aware silly crime drama thriller type shows self-contained you know not limited series type of thing they love them and they're churning them out and I bring them on, I enjoy most of them and this one is up there partly because of that absolutely fucking ridiculous ending okay, right imagine if B &M made a version of Mayor of Easttown and then it married Cruel Intentions okay, right, the film Cruel Intentions that is what this is and even though this man over here was incredibly scathing about it.

1:12:37James, in case people think this is... Sorry, James. This is an audio medium, Stephanie. This is so incredibly enjoyable to watch. And it's not just me, it's not just Boyd, it's people on the ground. If you ask people at the moment what they are watching, they'll be like, his and hers, and just for Can You Believe the Ending of the Traitors. That is what people are watching. And the reason they're watching it is because it's so utterly jam-packed, full of thrilling entertainment. I don't have, like everyone, I know you keep saying it's like idiotic. I didn't find it that idiotic. Really? No. And also, I've been polling.

1:13:16Idiotic in a good way. People, I, by the third episode, I said to my husband, this is the person who's the killer and this is what's happened. And I messaged you both about it and that turned out to be, and there have been a couple of other females who have also said, oh yeah, yeah, I knew. And then all the men I know are like exactly what you said. It finished and there was 40 minutes and I was like, what the fuck is going on? I think it's, I found it quite obvious that that was going to be the ending and the ending is... That's pointless. No, I'm not going to say the end, but the ending is, it's sensational, but maybe again, that is a sensational ending and it is literally...

1:13:59It is idiotic, isn't it? I don't think so. Wow. I don't think it is idiotic. I think people are being a bit scathing about this when actually they just... And even though you're being slightly scathing about it, you're admitting that you fully enjoyed it. Oh, totally. And I truly believe you and I could write one of these, by the way. Got to turn our attention to it. Tessa Thompson's amazing. And even if the... Is she though? Oh, she's great. I'm not sure about the performances. They're in it for it. No, they're giving it. I don't know. They're giving it everything. They know what this is. You know who I love?

1:14:31Sorry to interrupt. No, go for it. I love the character of the husband of the first victim. Yeah. Right? He is having a whale of a time in that role. I love him. And he comes back. He's in it, and he comes back maybe in episode four or five or something. And I love him. He's such a kind of like, I don't give a fuck what you think about me. I'll do what I've done, and blah, blah, blah. He's really entertaining. They're a kind of supporting character. And the other one, who's really... This is what I mean about the performances. No, her boss, Tessa Thompson's boss at the news channel, of the channel who's like weirdly like he's like a jolly old guy and then suddenly gets really like annoyed about stuff and then he just seems to have forgotten he's annoyed and then he's being lovely to it he's just it has these supporting characters that are just weird weirdly depicted you've hit on exactly what I think this is about I think every character doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks about them everybody who everybody who's acting in this is just going for it they know what it is they know this is just purely about the entertainment they're playing it absolutely to the nth degree and I love it even like the there's sex scenes in the back of cars and it's just...

1:15:33Oh, it's a lot of that. A lot of it is very cliche. Neither sensitively nor realistically depicted. No, absolutely. It rains a fuck of a lot as well, doesn't it? It's unapologetically cliche, that you know what you're in for from the first episode. So you're either in it and like, I'm going to be on board with it, or it's just not for you. But it is for a lot of people. I can tell you that now. Absolutely. And one more thing, sorry, before James enters this. The other thing about that, the penultimate episode in the build up to the big reveal is the action of that episode is insane as well so it's not just the crazed ending which I call idiotic it's not so much idiotic as just pushing the boundaries of what you could possibly be plausible shall we say but before that all the action that goes on it's like action after action after action in the penultimate episode that was also borderline moronic you know whatever wood you want to use and again in an incredibly funny entertaining way I think like it is cliche after cliche like cabins in the woods like you say the rain is used a lot to signal this is the mood this is the mood something dramatic is going to happen kids there's a lot it's one of those there's a lot of I could talk about this all day I practically have there's lots of stuff like scenes where he goes to there's an old guy in like a tarted up caravan who happens to be in charge of security of this thing and he just manages to find the date of the take and watch back the action that's been filmed months ago oh my god the whole thing is fucking ridiculous James we have 11 minutes till we get kicked out of the studio so I'm simply going to read you a couple of reviews oh god the Hollywood Reporter unfortunately with almost no chemistry between them Tessa Thompson and John Bantle they're lost in a sea of unconvincing misdirections that should have been a 90 minute feature if that the playlist says it wastes them Tessa Thompson and John Bernthal on a prestige looking soap that mistakes escalation for depth and leaves you with the lingering sense you didn't watch a mystery unravel so much as a premise collapse okay well that's bullshit okay and the people have spoken I said this on the other podcast the people have spoken you know it's it's it's a really it's a really nice romp through a murder but what did you think I had quite a good time with it.

1:17:58I mean, it's absolute trash, but it's very watchable trash. To be fair, I only watched the first episode. I'm not ruling out watching more of it, just because it's just... Do you think that's trashy? I mean, yeah. Because, again, this is not a gourmet burger. This is a really filthy burger. This is a proper, like, you know, you're in a train station, you've gone up to the concessions window, do you do hot food? Oh, we've got this burger, fine, I'll take it, stick it in the microwave. It's one of those. That's what this is. But you're so hungry, I'm pushing this metaphor, you've been on the train for ages, you eat it anyway, and you love it.

1:18:31It's a hot dog served outside Arsenal Stadium where I'm going tonight. That's exactly what it is. I think you're being slightly... It's not aesthetically that displeasing, is it though? It's a fun fair cheeseburger, is what it is. Visually, it's quite eye-catching. I think you're both being a bit snobby. Not you so much. Okay, void. Hold on. No, no, no, I'm not talking about it. But you've got to recognise it is apps. Jonathan Ross on his podcast. Feel free to plug up the podcast for it. I'm sorry, I do plug up the podcast. But they, you know, all podcasts are available. Obviously not as good as that.

1:19:07Anyway, he was talking about how he knew someone who was approached to write, adapt the script from the novel and they turned it down because it's so stupid in the end. So, you know, it's like, yeah. The crux of this is, okay, this is about watching TV for entertainment. Is this entertaining? Oh, God, yeah. It is. 100%. End of story. I'm thrilled I watched the whole thing. Oh. Yeah. I'm taking that as personally. And I recommend listeners to watch the whole thing too, because you will have a whale of time. Okay. And we're going to cover this very, very quickly. But finally this week, we have...

1:19:36Drumroll, please. Silent Witness, the 20... I cannot emphasize this enough. The 29th series of Silent... Never, ever accuse us of being late to the party. Yes, this first aired back in 1996. But Nigel McCreary's forensic drama is going strong on BBC One and we decided, with our fingers firmly, firmly on the pulse, to take a look at quite what it takes for a show to become so beloved. Going strong three decades later. So, who wants to give us a potted history of forensic psychology? Or some forensic pathology, I should say. Yeah, pathology. Pathology, not psychology. I picked this to review because it was a week where the only two really interesting new dramas launching on the Sunday of the week we're doing we're embargoed and so I thought what else can we do we do shows that we've big shows that are causing a phenomenon like for example his and hers as you say Steph it's definitely a phenomenon with the people on the ground so I thought well the only other news is Sign of Witness is back for as you say it's 29th series and what's incredible is it started off with Amanda Burton back in 1996 as you say she only lasted a mere 8 years She came back, though, in Series 25.

1:20:51She did come back for a 25th anniversary special. But Amelia Fox has been doing the role for 21 years now. Now, I think there must be some kind of record, non-soap record. Because soaps have, you know, like, Ken Barlow's been in it since, like, 70 years or something, isn't it? In Coronation Street, etc. Been in a non-soap in, I think, 21 years. Okay, we need a number crunch on that. It's phenomenal. We need a number crunch on that stat. But, so I picked it because I'm interested. Russell T Davies talks a lot about, you know, a friend of the pod, about how, you know, just those weekly ongoing dramas on British TV, like your Casualties and your Holby Cities, Holby Cities, I think it is no more, and your soaps themselves, and this kind of show, that actually they're often much better and much higher quality than a non-snobbish person might think.

1:21:41I feel attacked. Yes. And so I wanted to delve into this, because I haven't watched it myself for years. I watched Liz Carr was in it a few years ago. Liz Carr from the OA, who I met on the set of the OA. I haven't mentioned this for at least a few months, but I went on the set of the OA, one of the greatest days of my life, and Liz Carr was there on set, and she's an absolutely wonderful actress. And we bonded, and I became quite friendly with her. And this show has a really good record of casting disabled actors like Liz Carr in it. And they've got a disabled actor in it at the moment, Fran Mills, who's one of the core four cast members who have all moved to Birmingham to be with their leading figure, Nicky, played by Amelia Fox.

1:22:23And actually, when I watched it, I was pleasantly surprised by how daring, it starts off with kind of like a scene of intimacy, like a sex scene, and then there's a chase in the forest. It's quite confusing. It's quite confusing, yeah. The narrative is kind of deliberately kind of mosaic-like, and then you meet this character who seems to be a killer, who seems to revel in the fact that he's a killer, and he's absolutely fine with it and showing off about it. And it's all quite kind of... I'm trying to avoid using the B word bold because I say that about everything, but it's bolder than I thought it would be for a show that's been going for 29 fucking years.

1:22:57And I rather enjoyed it. And technically, in terms of... No, go on. The expression on Steph's face is literally, what the fuck are you talking about? You're a madman. I just thought the whole thing, technically, and in terms of the way it's shot and the way it's acted and everything, is of a level that is good. So I enjoyed it, and I'm not necessarily going to go back and watch the previous 28 series, but I enjoyed it, and I think it is an example of British TV having a level of quality now, which is a base level of quality, which is pretty damn good. But it's not trash, crucially. It really isn't, because it's structured in couplets as well, which again gives it a slightly almost literary feel to me.

1:23:36It's basically British CSI, except it predates CSI. And when this started, it caused quite the controversy for being very dark, and it's got in trouble a few times with the various Ofcom and the censors for depicting horrible, horrible, vicious, violent scenes. And it's really graphic. The post-mortem is really graphic. They do not mess about. Steph, you are the criminologist here. I'm sensing you don't love it. I feel like I'm being on a real Debbie Downer. Okay, I think maybe a bit of what you were saying is because I think people can watch this show while they're eating their tea, okay? They shouldn't, it's horrible.

1:24:12A bit of a bit off-putting while they slice through the... This, to me, I found the dialogue really stunted and unsophisticated. I didn't... I found the constant camera shuttering of Amelia Fox really off-putting in it. She's just constantly taking... I know that's her job, but it just... I find it really intrusive. She's just walking around slowly everywhere and you have to hear the constant camera shuttering. It's a very specific complaint. I know, but it's annoying. That is a very specific complaint. Listen, corridor guy, okay? She's got you, she's got you. Camera shuttering, this is the new corridor.

1:24:50Corridor walking. There were interview scenes with the police detectives that were truly so unrealistic. There's one scene where the guy who is the person who's an unashamed killer says, and who are you? To this other guy. It's just, it's preposterous that that would ever happen. I think when we're so used to seeing such intricate realism like in adolescence, something like that, and obviously this is not, this is, but this is not, I know. That's unfair. No, no, no. But this is not, obviously this is not purporting to be adolescence. But what I'm saying is we're used to seeing ultra-realistic scenes in criminal investigations.

1:25:28And this is so far removed from that. I found that really unenjoyable. You didn't have a problem with the insane scenes in where one character questions another with no lawyer and I openly admit that there's something about the American accent that means that that doesn't seem to matter and that's probably wrong but this I think there's a line in this and this is not a spoiler there's a line in this where someone goes people think you killed your wife and you should spend the rest of your life behind bars and the guy goes what are you saying

1:26:02it doesn't feel it doesn't feel the sophistication that I think something that stars Amelia Fox should have in it there's a discovery there's a discovery of a body and you are supposed to suspend your disbelief that this body that's been found is laying undiscovered in a relatively shallow grave and there was no cadaver dogs it's just hyper unrealistic for something that is so realistic. All your complaints are very specific about this. Yeah, very specific. Yes, because when I'm looking at something which is silent witnesses and it's about crime, I'm looking at it with that hypervigilance of, this wouldn't happen, no, because it's...

1:26:41I just feel like the hypervigilance is only for this show, whereas fucking Islamists can get away with anything. I'm not saying I'm perfect, Boyd, okay? I'm just saying this is why I didn't like it. I'm going to draw a line under it now, if only because we have run out of time for this particular episode. I'm going to say, if any of you watch Silent Witness and you would like to offer your thoughts as to why this has been such an enduring classic, or at least a sort of long-standing fixture of British television, send it in, pilottv at empiremagazine.com and we'll have a look at it and examine the evidence and come to a verdict.

1:27:13Yes. That is it for this week's Pilot Podcast. What else is out this week, Boydie? Absolutely nothing, right? Let's move on. No, we should say that Silent Witness is on Monday and Tuesday, the second and third. Monday and Tuesday for five weeks, different two-part story each week Sign of Witness has been on TV for the last 30 years you don't need us to tell you where it is it's back this week though The Muppet Show isn't there a one-off Muppet Show special on Disney Plus on Wednesday Miss Piggy Kermit Sabrina Carpenter one Sabrina Carpenter yeah that one there is The Nevers is on ITVX now all of it which is you know that show from that guy yes that one Trying is on BBC One which is previously on Apple TV on starting season two starting on Tuesday at 10.40pm.

1:27:56There's a show called Copper on You, the You streaming thing from Tom Fontana, Creative Homicide Life on the Street and Monsters Bull. And that's on You. That starts on Wednesday. Well, yeah, it's available from Wednesday. FBI is back on Sky Witness now on Thursday the 5th. The Lincoln Lawyer is on Netflix from the 5th of February. Also one of those reliable Netflix shows. And on Sunday, the following Sunday, next Sunday, Lord of the Flyers, BBC One, 9 o 'clock, and Betrayal, ITV One, 9 o 'clock, that we'll hopefully review one or other, or both of those. And crucially, almost none of those things are on the calendar.

1:28:33Sorry, Steph, go on. I would just like to mention that also, what's gaining a lot of traction with the people on the ground is Finding Her Edge, which is the ice skating drama that you mentioned last week. Oh, yeah. Netflix. On Netflix. Yeah, a lot of people talking about that. Right. I like that you're embracing this role as the Vox Populi on this podcast. Yeah, I am, because I care about the people. Yeah, good. Well done. Well done, you. that's it for this week's Pilot TV podcast please do follow us on the social medias at Boyd Hilton at James C. Dyer at Pilot TV Pod and at Steph Seelan that's my name that is your name and please give us a you know a nice review like a kind review possibly with cake that would be nice be nice yeah be nice be nice be nice to us and please subscribe to Pilot Plus because we want your money I mean look I think it's best to be honest absolutely we want your money to keep us employed give us your effing money yes give us your effing money that's what Boyd says and James will promise not to say vagismus first of all it's vaginismus that's the one so you go away and do your research and then we'll talk about it next week we won't we absolutely won't oh god on next week's show I mean who knows but The Artful Dodger is back on Disney Plus Cross Alex Cross bit of crime Seth is back on Prime Video what else have we got How to Get to Heaven from Belfast drives on Netflix but that is Embargo it's probably on Pilot Plus maybe Small Profits on BBC Two which is a Mackenzie Crook's new show.

1:29:53Yeah. Also not on the calendar. But yeah, no. It's all good. Am I supposed to be putting stuff on a calendar? Yeah, that's right. No, he's having a go at me. No, no, you should. You should all be putting stuff on the calendar. Okay. Right, that's it. We're done. Thank you very much indeed. And I hope that you've enjoyed this podcast about Chex Note television. Pilot out.

1:30:21you