A New Chief Twit, CNN Fallout, and Senator Mark Warner

23:10So she has built in a, I'm sure, I'd love to see her unemployment agreement that says, if I am terminated for pretty much any reason other than killing a child, I invest everything for four years. And I bet she hasn't even taken that many options. If I were her, she's a smart woman. Take some cash, yeah. All cash because he's trying to pretend this company is still worth$20 billion. It isn't. But it's an opportunity for her because you meet her at a cocktail party and, you know, women and men have big egos at this level. And you go, what do you do? I run all of advertising for NBC. Oh, great. I'm going to head to the bar.

23:42Do you want anything? I run Twitter. Really? Really? Really? So it's just a much more interesting gig. Yeah, she wanted this. You could feel that from her. She's so, and I don't mean this, just ambition was bristling off of her. Like, and that's not a negative thing in my thing. Would you say that about a man? Would you say that about a man? I would. I'd call them feral, probably. I mean, we'll see what he behaves like. She sort of got him over. I was thinking about it this weekend. You know, I talked to her before she did that Elon Musk interview at that event down in Florida, Possible or whatever you call it.

24:16Again, she also, by the way, she likes attention. She likes being on stage. We often did stage things together. She likes the stage. So that's one of the things. So do you and me, Cara. I get it. But that's going to be a problem with Elon because he likes the stage, right? So if she starts doing interviews, will he like that? I think that's one of the things. But she wants prominence. And so that'll be, I think, a push-pull between them. And another thing is she's - That'll be an issue. I can't name another person. The only person I've ever heard that works at any of his companies is the woman you keep referencing at SpaceX.

24:46Yeah, but you never see her. One time she told – I wanted to do an interview with her and she said, Elon does the interviews with you. Yeah, no, he's – no one's allowed – you don't even want to be at a party. Like, don't let anyone take a picture of you. I mean, it's all about him, let's be honest. Yeah, but she's very charming and everything. We talked briefly before she – didn't talk, we emailed before he did that interview with her. I just said, good luck. Like, okay, good luck with that. And then when I saw it – It went really well, right? I thought it was quite a kissy, kissy, kissy one. It was sort of like, whoa, you didn't do anything I mentioned.

25:19But, you know, I thought one of the reasons. She was interviewing for a job. That's correct. That's what I when I looked at that. I'm like, oh, like that. And that's how I figured it out. That's how I figured it was her. Because I saw that and I was like, I got the first person who came to mind because of that interview she did. She's got a big thing to tackle from the start. Government censorship. Last week, Twitter announced that it was limiting access to some content in Turkey. It hasn't said which comment, but Turkish news sites report tweets come from a Kurdish businessman and investigative journalist who investigates the current government, which, by the way, they're going to look like they're going to a runoff.

25:53Critics accused the company of caving to government censorship in the lead up to presidential election. Turkey held the election on Sunday. Musk fired back at one of those critics tweeting that the choice was to have Twitter throttled in its entirety or limit access to some tweets, which is not the choice. But by the way, before the takeover, Twitter fully complied with half of government demands it receives. It was one of the most aggressive pushback of government requests in tech at the time. Since the takeover, the number has gone up to 80 percent. Twitter said that he'll post what the government in Turkey sent us.

26:23But as of the recording, he hasn't. Twitter used to be great about fighting government censorship, even going as far to sue the government of India before he took over. But now he's removing content at Indian government's request, including a BBC documentary. I find it's difficult to think of someone who is more full of shit than Elon Musk. And the latest thing he is pitching, promising, being sanctimonious about, trying to attach to his brand, pretending he gives a flying fuck about it is free speech. Yeah. This is the absolute worst thing he could have done for democracy in a fair election. Because when you keep the platform up, first off, you're right.

27:03This has sent a message to every autocrat that if you tell Twitter to bastardize their content in my favor, they will back down. Because the absolute worst thing that could have happened has happened, and that is he left the network up. If he'd taken the network down, the day after the election, they would have said, fine, put it back up. They probably would have said, keep it up, as you referenced they did before. Instead, the majority of Turkish citizens who had to make a decision going into the polls, and most people are really busy and don't make that decision, or oftentimes the swing voters who swing an election don't make that decision, had a source of news media that all of a sudden, all the anti-Erteghan contact wasn't there.

27:43And there wasn't a disclosure saying we were forced to take it down. This was the absolute worst message to send to every autocrat around the world. This was worse, much worse than taking the platform down. and it did everything an autocrat wants. Give me the impression I have free speech. Give me the impression the pro Erdogan content has veracity because the platform is still up. But all the things questioning my corruption, talking positively about my opponent, that just disappeared. So just whenever Elon Musk says free speech, just keep in mind, A, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

28:23Right. And B, if he did, he has no fidelity to it. No, he also has business interests in Turkey. No problem. But he has huge business interests in Turkey, let's be clear, for both SpaceX and for Tesla. And so this is just, honestly, if he says I'm a free speech outblownist again, I'm going to, I don't know what I'm going to do. I think free speech is important for humanity. Have you heard that rap? Yeah. Except when it comes to free elections in Turkey. Just typical. Typical. And by the way, Twitter did the exact opposite before. They should do it everywhere they are. Just we're not going to do it if they want to be a free speech.

28:56And you have governments back down. They want any longer. They're all going to say the same thing now. Yep. 100%. Especially because these companies are under such pressure by these governments. They really are. And it's not their biggest business. It's not like he's losing anything by doing it. It's like just advertising. It's not – except for Elon Musk businesses. Yes. It's grotesque. Good luck, Linda. Good luck, Linda. Have a good time. Have at it. Have at it. Make sure that severance payment is big. I was told by an ad person, which I think is 100 % true, I was at a thing and they're like, I'm like, are you going to go back to Twitter?

29:29And they were like, well, it sucked before and now there's penis pictures and white supremacists all over the place. Probably not very much, right? Unless it works. So she's got to convince him. She'll stabilize it. She probably has. She probably insulted it to them before. Yeah, but my guess is someone like that has such deep relationships. She's going to throw a bunch of great parties at Cannes. She is. And say, hey. Let's go. Let's show up. Hey, CMO of P &G Ford, just give me$10 or$20 million. It's me, Linda. There will be a Yaccarino bump in their advertising. They're still going to have to deliver.

30:10But what you said is it's always been a subscale platform that's never really shown the ROI of the other stuff. No, but let's go to the party. What do you say? No, I'm in. Anyway, Linda, again, good luck. You're a very nice person, although I don't agree with you on your Trump nonsense, but whatever. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, CNN's brass clamps down on internal dissent, and we'll speak with Senator Mark Warner about TikTok and more.

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32:57Scott, we're back. CNN wanted controversy, and it got it. Critics are calling last week's town hall with Donald Trump reckless, irresponsible, and a disaster. In one case, that call was coming from inside the house. In CNN's Reliable Sources newsletter, reporter Oliver Darcy labeled the event a spectacle of lies. That got him called into a meeting with boss Chris Licht and the network's top brass. Licht told Darcy he was too emotional in his writing and to keep it dispassionate, And according to Puck's Dylan Byers, let me just say that piece was not emotional. Chris Lick is a little emotional.

33:30Anderson Cooper was emotional. Oliver Darcy was not emotional in that piece. But here we are eight years in. People cannot cover Trump right. What is going on here, Scott? What do you think about this? Well, it's really interesting. People are focused on what Disney is doing to Governor DeSantis. And they're right. But I actually think the thing that hurt DeSantis – what if CNN had decided to do a town hall with Governor DeSantis and not Trump? I think – I mean, these decisions matter, right? If they said, look, this is a new face, up and coming in the polls, was the front runner, we're going to do a town hall with them.

34:09Like, it would have been – I just – I think that – I feel for CNN. I don't – I think this – I think that they – I can understand why they made the decision. They made the call. They took a risk. It blew up in their face, quite frankly. Well, a lot of people, I don't disagree they should have had him. I think a lot of that's that's one of their false arguments. Like, we have to do it. And all the people are like, yeah, we know. But you did it badly. Like nobody. There was a bunch of screamy people on Twitter saying they shouldn't do it. But most news organizations like, yeah, they should do it.

34:42What are you going to do? Like they have them. I think it's the issue. And and then to clamp down on their own reporter media reporter for covering it is and I get that you shouldn't be writing about your own organization, but that happens sometimes in this case, it rose to the occasion, right? You don't pee inside the tent, but you do in this case, because it was such a big news story. And to clamp down on a piece that was literally completely fair, I mean, I think has irritated a lot of people. They just keep stumbling. And the only advantage goes to someone like Trump, although I don't think he did as well as people think.

35:13I don't know. I kind of come from, I understand the code of journalism and covering, but But it sucks to be a grown-up. You don't shitpost the people who are signing in front of your check. It wasn't a shitpost. You didn't read it. It was not a shitpost. You're right. I didn't read it. It was not a shitpost. It was basically saying there's a lot of controversy here. And Trump lied a lot. Fact, fact. It was so dispassionate. They just didn't want them to write about it at all. And in this case, it was such a big news story. They wrote about it because the media is obsessed with themselves. America has moved on.

35:42The media wants to hand-wring and stare at their own, gaze at their own navel. because they think they're more important than they are. It's not a naval. They shouldn't bring in their media reporter and chastise him for doing his job. I'm sorry. Well, I'm sure they bring him in every fucking week and chastise him for other reasons. It's called work. They didn't. They don't. They should focus. If this guy has all these problems within CNN, this is not what he should be doing with his leadership. I'm sorry. This was someone on background taking the situation out of context. Who the fuck cares? It's a private company.

36:13I know what happened. It happened. I know. I know. And Louie's 21. Let's get back to that. I'm just telling you, I'm very, it absolutely happened. And I've talked to all sides. So it happened. I will defer to your judgment on this one. I just, it's a waste of fucking time to like, in this case, the media reporter should write about it because it was such a big story. And it was a big story, especially in media. Now, you may not be interested in media, although you spend an awful lot of time writing about media, just saying. I do. So I think you should think about that. I think it creates a morale problem at that company.

36:45I think you should think about it. Okay, I'll get right on that thinking card. No, I think it's a morale problem. Taylor Swift likes me. She wrote a ballot about me. Oh, my God. As usual, you try to diminish things. It's a morale problem that they already had. They've made it worse. I've got a hot lesbian for us to set up. Okay. All right. Let me just say, in the last episode regarding presidential debates, that only work if participants have integrity and fidelity to the truth. That's what someone named Scott Galloway said. What did I say? You said regarding presidential debates that the only work if participants have integrity and fidelity to the truth.

37:17Does that extend the logic of news coverage generally? Just curious. Oh, good one. Good one. Oh, my. I have absolutely no response. Excuse me. Excuse me. She's not my type. She's not my type. Come on. What do you think? Look, I'm standing by it. I think that they made, I understand the call to have the former president and the front runner in a town hall. I think where they absolutely screwed up was acquiescing to his team's request to fill the place. I'll give you an example. When I go on Bill Maher, part of the reason that we're successful on Bill Maher is I think there are people in the audience that have a guttural, uproarious laugh at anything you say.

38:01And I think basically they didn't have a town hall. They had a red pill fanboy. fanboy. Sununu said that. Governor Sununu said that. Look, it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback. If we can play Magic Wango back in history, I would have liked her to just say, this is a fucking nightmare. I don't care. I'm going off script and say, turn on the lights and say, can someone who laughed tell me why they just laughed? That's what I said for them to do. Thank you. Thank you. But how do you cover Trump? Tell me, Mr. Pretend you, this passion dispassion is not the right metric. I would use technology.

38:34Okay, again, do it again. Let me see how you're going to cover it. I would do the town hall. I would have a bipartisan group of people, not red pill weirdos. I would leverage technology, and I'm going to say, we're going to fact check you real time, and I'd have a chyron. And every time he said something, I would fact check it, and it would have been blinking red all. It would have said, he just said he sent this tweet. Time delay. He never sent it. Time delay is another thing. Just be like, this is not true. This is not true. He just said this. This is true. Yes, this is true. I would fact check in real time.

39:11What if they had done the same thing with Governor DeSantis instead of Trump? Yeah. That would have changed the dynamic, at least for a short term. I'm not saying that's the right thing. They solidified his position as the frontrunner. They did. And maybe they didn't mean to do it. But you could have made the same type of rational argument for, look, President Trump, people know you. They have heard from you. The frontrunner and the number two and the person whose name is most often mentioned as their likely contender for the GOP nomination and is also a rising star in the Republican Party, we're going to do a town hall with him.

39:43That would have been the right call in my opinion. It didn't do very well. Only 3.3 million viewers. It's a lot more than CNN usually gets, but it's actually below the Biden. We're all talking about it. I understand. We're all poring over it. I get it, but it wasn't that good a TV situation, just so you know. I think The Onion had a good take with a headline, Trump condemned for giving platform to CNN. I love that onion. Anyway. They do a great job. We'll see. All the other networks will take Trump, by the way. They're in talks with all the major networks. He's the best guest in television. He makes news.

40:14Same thing with Elon. He's going on CNBC tomorrow night. But, you know, there's no way the media can't be a booster to candidates. That's just the way. We're not neutral. And we like to think of ourselves as neutral orbiters. But as depicted on Succession this week, we are active players who make intentional editorial choices with consequences. That's from Evan Engel, our producer. The relationship between Tom and Shiv is just too much for me. They're just not nice to each other. I just can't handle it. I don't think people should treat each other that way. Keep handling it. Let's just say. He's got to be the bigger man.

40:44She's got to. Yeah. She's. They're just. They're just. Relationships are supposed to enhance each other's lives and build each other up, not be mean to each other. I just. I'm traumatized by Succession. Are you? All right. Well, get ready. Get ready. Oh, by the way, I read a tweet. I read a tweet that someone said they couldn't follow it. And the best part of Succession was your podcast. It's pretty good. I'm sure you're not listening to it, but it's very good. This week I had Jesse Armstrong, the creator this week about this show. This was a really good show. Let's get back to Tom. He's a classic Shakespearean actor, isn't he?

41:17Yes. McFadden. Matthew McFadden. What's he like? He's wonderful. We should listen to my podcast with him. It's quite good. Yeah, that's not going to happen. And then I just interviewed Jeremy Strong for a full hour. He plays Kendall Roy. He was great. Anyway, CNN, just get it together and stop acting like. Stop picking on CNN. Oh, stop it, please. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of Pivot, speaking of nice guys.

41:46Senator Mark Warner represents Virginia in the United States Senate. He also chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee and is the sponsor of the Restrict Act, which it passed could ban TikTok. Welcome, Senator Warner. Thanks for having me. So I want to start with just something we just were talking about. Elon Musk appears to be censoring tweets at the request of the Turkish government. We've seen him take similar actions in India. The last owners pushed back on the Turkish government when they tried to do this. Do you have any thoughts about the free speech implications and should this be a congressional priority?

42:17Well, Elon Musk is brilliant. I think we all know that. I worry about his tendency to be supportive of authoritarian regimes. I often point out that if you ask any random group what American citizen is more obliged and potentially under the thumb of the Communist Party of China, it's Elon Musk. because he is totally dependent upon Chinese largesse for the batteries that go in all his Teslas, the fact that he's got a major manufacturing facility there, and the fact that he's always willing to say good things about the regulatory environment in China when he trashes the regulatory environment in the United States and Europe.

42:56So the fact that he is kowtowing to the Erdogan government doesn't surprise me at all. Doesn't surprise you at all. There's nothing Congress should be doing about this because that's how Twitter fought. I worry overall about Musk's kind of hands-off approach to Twitter and his willingness again to go further and further to the right. I'm not sure there's, you know, I can tell you our committee is not doing anything on this subject, and I don't know whether others are. Yeah, that's a fair point. Okay, so let's get into the Restrict Act. It doesn't mention TikTok by name, but it seems pretty well targeted.

43:39Talk about the Ristic Act overall, because many are worried that it's the Patriot Act of data. Well, let me step back and take a minute or two on this. You know, we don't have any organized approach on how we deal with technology that comes from nation states that our country has defined as adversarial. That's China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba. Not my choices. That's been in law for some time. Yet we've seen this over the last five or six years. It was Kaspersky, the Russian software company, a few years back. Then we've had huge issues with Huawei and CTE. Now it's TikTok. Tomorrow it could be some other entity.

44:21And I think we need a rules-based approach rather than the whack-a-mole approach we've got now, which we kind of say this company's bad and let's go after it. We need a rules-based approach that would stand up to constitutional muster, that would recognize particularly communications-based technologies do have First Amendment rights, whether they're controlled by another entity or not, and that would give the Secretary of Commerce the tools that would allow them to restrict, potentially sell off, or in the ultimate case, ban an application if, and remember, the burden would be on the government to prove its case that this was a national security concern, and there would be an obligation.

45:04I think a lot of our critics have missed this. Actually, for the intelligence community to declassify as much information as possible. Sure, so we can see the proof. Yeah, that's one of the issues. And let me go quickly, because I'm sure there'll be follow-up questions. The basic premise of why I think TikTok's a national security issue is 150 million Americans use TikTok. TikTok says they use it for an average of 90 minutes a day. The two concerns I have with TikTok are, one, the data harvesting that's going on. And people will say, well, what about, you know, that? Yes, I was just going to say, Facebook, Instagram.

45:38Videos my kids like. How is that, you know, how is that important or not important? Well, I mean, if a foreign government knows what your kids like, that could be used at some point in the future for blackmail. And the other portion, which is, I think, a huge concern, is the propaganda tools. And I think it would be naive to assume that the Communist Party, if they wanted ByteDance to slightly shade what kind of videos, that is a concern. And let me quickly add, and you know this, Carolyn. Scott knows this. My background is technology. I'm not a complete trocleteite on these issues. Right. And I absolutely believe that there are problems with Facebook and Google and Twitter and others.

46:21and I'm in favor of everything from kids' online safety to privacy legislation to Section 230 reform. I've got data portability, interoperability legislation. I'm for all of that. None of which, let me point out, has passed, but this one looks like it will. Matter of fact, if there was a place where we get big old goose eggs, it is on any guardrails on social media. But I think the discussion about TikTok or national security concerns is a different one. Final point is that we were moving merrily along, picking up Republicans and Democrats two by two, almost Noah-esque. You know, we had 13 Democrats, 13 Republicans.

47:00The Biden administration supported us. And it looked like because it was rules-based, we were making huge progress. After Mr. Show, the TikTok CEO testified, it was like TikTok did flip the switch and their lobbying suddenly came to bear. and you couldn't turn on TV without seeing a TikTok ad and all the little cheat sheets that the politicians read in Washington. And where the criticism has come, three areas, all of which I think are not valid, but all of which we are prepared to amend the legislation to make explicitly clear. One is that somehow if TikTok were banned and an American citizen said, I still want to get on TikTok, I'm going to use a VPN to get on, that somehow we could go after that American citizen.

47:41No, no, no. But we will put additional language in if necessary. Two, that this is somehow the Patriot Act refreshed. The actual language that we used is exactly the language the Secretary of Commerce already has on trade adjustment legislation. But again, we will clarify further there is no expansion of government powers. And then three, the criticism that somehow an innocent American company could somehow get sanctioned by this by having to do business in China. No, you have to demonstrate that the company is controlled by Chinese interest. And because Chinese law back as of 2017 says that any Chinese company at the end of the day has to be first and foremost loyal, not to customers or shareholders, but to the Communist Party of China, that control criteria is there.

48:34But again, we are working with some of our critics to make some legislative changes to make explicitly clear that those criticisms are not valid. Senator Warner, really good to be with you, and thanks for your good work. You know, Senator Klobuchar, whenever I speak to a senator on tech issues, I'm really encouraged. Senator Klobuchar's view on antitrust, Senator Bennett and his views on the need to create an additional regulatory agency of which there are none to oversee the largest sector in the world by market cap. I think the restrict act just feels like common sense. And then nothing, nothing.

49:13And I'm trying to figure out why there's an FDA for food, there's an SEC for the financial markets, is it just pure money? Is it these folks have more money? Is it that we worship them so you don't get the public support? Why, if like every other legislation as it comes to big tech, if this goes the way of all of it, we'll all nod our head and then nothing will happen. You have a front row seat here. Why can't we get anything done here? Well, Scott, I think it's a couple of factors. One is, I think we were all, for the first 10 or 15 years of this century, way too techno optimists. We said all these great things kind of come with tech.

49:57And there have been great things. Great things have come from social media. There's great creativity on TikTok. I'm all for some other platform providing that same outlet for social influencers to make money. But we kind of were unwilling to acknowledge there was a deep, dark underbelly from all of this. And the Democrats, especially during Obama, were hugely techno optimists, enthralled with the Silicon Valley. The Republicans were traditionally more pro-business. So you didn't start with any kind of traditional adversary for these players. Then when we had even the lowest hanging fruit, something called the Honest Ads Act that I think everybody supported, they said, if you advertise on Facebook a political ad, there ought to be the same disclosure requirements that you would have if you were on TV or radio.

50:45And a little bit the social media companies are good at rope-a-dope, you know, oh, I'm for that, or I'm for that in concept until you actually see it written on a piece of paper, is part of the problem. And then your point, Scott, that these were hugely, hugely profitable companies, and they are more than willing to spend their resources. I, you know, I supported Amy's approach on antitrust because I think some of the self-dealing needed to be dealt with. But it's, you know, she can say more articulately than I have, you know, she got just overwhelmed with the amount of money being spent. It was.

51:21I'm seeing this real time. I don't think there is a lobbyist in D.C. that I know that's not on TikTok's payroll at this point. Right. Now, again, that's part of the process, but I don't think we should underestimate. Is it having an effect? Because it worked against Amy or Senator Klobuchar. I tell you, our moving along literally with folks lined up to get on our restrict bill since the opposition has kind of blossomed all at once. And it was almost like a light switch went off. But we are working with some of the folks who've got concerns because if they've got legitimate concerns about individuals falling prey or, you know, expansion of government powers or some company being inadvertently hit, I think we can address those concerns.

52:08And I think there's also was on TikTok in particular the notion, well, gosh, this is really popular with young people. It is. And I've had a bunch of folks who are, you know, are social influencers and make their money off TikTok. I haven't heard any of them. They want to maintain that ability to have that income stream. But none of them said it needs to be a company that is indirectly controlled by the Communist Party of China. Right. Which is not going to change. Just one last quick point. This is not just Americans. And Canada has banned TikTok, EU, the Brits, the Australians. The Indians have banned it outright.

52:44The other governments have banned it just in terms of their governmental use. And the BBC, not exactly some, you know, not progressive-leaning group, has basically told all the journalists, get off TikTok because chances are you're getting monitored. Yeah. So the proof. You're the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee. I'm guessing you've seen the proof. I can tell you this. There is a reason why every law enforcement entity, it's a reason why the armed forces, the reasons why every one of our 17 intelligence agencies think that TikTok is a national security regime. What's the reason? Can we see it?

53:19I'm not going to go in. Let's pass the bill. And then they still got to make the case. So the intel community would have to then declassify. I can't magically declassify right now. But you feel there's ample proof. Let me not act like you've got the absolute smoking gun. Most of this is the potential abuse, not current abuse. That's the TikTok calling. But the thing was with Huawei, on the back door, what finally convinced people we needed to move on this was the fact that Huawei had sold their systems subsidized by the Chinese government with almost 100 % match of where our intercontinental ballistic missile systems were.

54:01So some of this on TikTok is the potential abuse, not actual abuse. But why would you have to take that risk, particularly when you're thinking about the propaganda tool? All right. I'm going to move us to the Kids Online Safety Act. This bill failed last year after advocacy groups said it was too broad. Now it's been reintroduced. And, of course, there's a version of them in California. What's different this time around and why should it pass? The ACLU and Fight for Future will still oppose the rework bill. The ACL says the bill would let companies collect more information about who is and isn't a minor than it should be seeking to curb data abuses.

54:35Well, Karen, there's not much difference in the substance. I don't think there's anything different. I'm a co-sponsor of it. But it should have been a no-brainer. I mean, this does put a, quote-unquote, duty of care on the tech companies to make sure for folks under 17, they take some steps. Again, that's a bit amorphous, but as we've seen in the UK, they're actually implementing similar, tougher-type legislation to protect their kids. It would give parents some more control. And when we see the level of mental health issues, particularly coming out of COVID, and again, not all due to social media, but in many cases exacerbated by social media.

55:13I mean, the epidemic of body shaming issues, the epidemic of eating disorders, oftentimes accelerated by some of these social media platforms. This should be a no-brainer. And I do think this session, it will get done. I think it will get marked up shortly. And, again, it goes back to your earlier point. If we can't protect our kids or if we can't take on something that is a national security risk within this domain, and to Scott's point, what in the heck are we doing? Why can't we move the ball on any of this when, frankly, when we don't at the congressional level, we cede to a quilt work of state laws or, as we've seen time and again, we basically cede American leadership to the EU or to our friends in the UK who are willing to take action.

56:07So some studies came out this week, I think, validating what a lot of us felt, and that is that mental wellness among teens is inversely correlated to their phone usage, full stop. That if a kid uses a lot, it's on his phone all the time. He's just much more prone to mental health issues. We age-gate the military. We age-gate driving. We age-gate pornography. We age-gate alcohol. all, wouldn't a fairly simple solution, and I know you've talked about this, be to age-gate all social media? Because if you don't age-gate it for everybody, the kid that's not on it is also depressed because he's isolated from the rest of his community.

56:48What's your view on age-gating and how do we get it done? You know, I have, first of all, I don't know any family post-COVID that doesn't have mental health issues, including my own family. And so, So and the tools of social media, which has been, again, scientifically proven now to exacerbate some of these issues. I mean, this is not speculation. This is real. On the age gating, Scott, I've thought about it. I probably don't. You know, I've not taken a position yet because I've not thought it all the way through. So at some level, I don't know what that age gate necessarily should be. But the ability to at least limit what type of access and can you use it for a learning purpose but not the device for a learning purpose or an educational but not a social media platform.

57:41I think reasonable people can get to a yes on some of this. And our failure to do so I think goes back to that enormous, enormous power. And these are great companies. I don't want to underestimate the fact that the Googles, the Amazons, the Facebooks, the Apples, they are great American icon companies. But their unwillingness to acknowledge that there is a deep, dark underbelly in some of their production is deeply disturbing. And I applaud you guys because you guys have been fairly lonely voices for a long time in a tech sector that is mostly obsequious to these companies. And what is the proposition now?

58:20What is the – I mean, people are worried. I'm worried about the data collected on who is in a minor too. We're given the opportunity to have more data, but where is the actual opposition right now? The actual opposition right now has morphed into – and this is a bit of an overstatement, but still more on the Republican side unwilling to do anything that's viewed as anti-business. Now, let me be clear. There are plenty of – Except for Disney. They do like attacking Disney, but go ahead. Yeah, but there are a lot of folks, a lot of Republican members who are strong advocates of some of this. What we've not done, and I'm willing to amend my or change my restrict bills, make it framed.

59:05We've got a lot of different paths that we're working on. Prioritization, whether it's antitrust, whether it's Section 230, whether it's privacy, whether it's kids. I would hope, and as much as I want to try to do the actions on the national security issues, if we could take a giant step forward on kids' online safety, that would be a huge win for our society. And I met with the British regulators recently, and they are now – because some of these issues, it's easy to say I'm for kids' online safety, where the devil in the details on how you get this right, particularly on some of these burdens of what is inappropriate behavior.

59:44You know, it's, I don't want to dismiss, it's tough, but the Brits are doing it. Yeah. All right. Topic of AI. We're moving to that. You asked test companies, including OpenAI, to open up about how they assess and mitigate risks from AI models. You requested they respond by May 26th. Have any companies responded? And what do you want to learn? We have, one, we have heard from virtually all the companies that they want to, they intend to respond. Two, what I try to do here, and I say this as somebody who's trying to learn as quickly as possible. And I'm actually bringing in some of the Sam Altman and Alexander Williams and folks from NVIDIA tomorrow to both talk to the intelligence community, but also to help educate a dozen plus bipartisan senators.

1:00:26What I tried to do with my letter was, let me claim a spot from a policy standpoint where I think there is no disagreement that we need to have basic security requirements. We need to make sure that these platforms, these large language learning models, you know, have basic cybersecurity built in, for example, rather than bolted on the way we do in many systems. It becomes an afterthought rather than, you know, kind of the part of the sauce that is built from the beginning. And I think folks get that. And I'll be anxious to see what kind of response they give us. I again most of the brand name CEOs and I've met most all of them and many of them are obviously brilliant they all say they want you know some regulations some rules of the road sure regulate me please I worry though maybe being like now an old guy that I've heard this line before you have heard this line before and then like you know it's going to be fine until you actually say okay let's look at your internal biases let's look at you know what kind of A global body.

1:01:37Yeah, what kind of publishing rights? What about all the folks who may suddenly decide there's no need to create content anymore because you're not going to get paid for it? So, yeah, a global body would be—one of the things that I don't think most folks know, and I didn't really know this until recently, was in the 90s, there was a real effort to create a global set of standards around cybersecurity. And everybody was in, China and Russia. It was actually the United States in the late 90s that pulled out of the kind of UN-driven efforts to try to create some cyber set of standards that might say, you know, you blow up a healthcare system that's the same as in war blowing up a hospital.

1:02:20And I think we got out of it because we thought we were so far ahead. I hope any nation state at this point, particularly when it comes to AI, doesn't have the hubris to think, you know, even if we're ahead today, that we're going to be ahead forever. This is a global issue, and it's one that needs some set of standards. Amen. You chair the Senate Intelligence Committee. You have access to the most insight from the greatest intelligence apparatus in the world. What, in your view, would it mean for the world and for America if we don't repel Russia from Ukraine? What's at stake here? What's at stake is much more than Ukraine's territorial integrity.

1:03:03What's at stake is whether an authoritarian regime that stifles virtually any dissent is able to violate every component of international law and roll over a free and democratic country. And it goes well beyond what would happen with Ukraine. It suddenly makes all those frontline states, particularly the Baltic nations and Poland, potentially up for grabs next. the hypocrisy of some of these guys that I work with who want to give Putin a free pass in Ukraine, but at the same time say, I'm concerned about President Xi taking on Taiwan. Well, you give Putin a win in Ukraine, and that is nothing but a full green light for Xi's expansionist opportunities vis-a-vis Taiwan and frankly, in all of Southeast Asia.

1:03:52So I think they are linked. I do think it is – I think our intelligence community on this one has really stepped up. The fact that they were willing to declassify and for any spy to give up information is always kind of tough. But declassify, particularly in advance of the invasion, what Putin's plans were going to be. And that got Putin off guard. So I think this is the issue of our time. I think the issue of our time is not just Putin and the Ukrainian circumstance, which is kind of conventional warfare. I think the issue of our time even greater is this technology competition with China and their almost Orwellian surveillance state that they've created and how that permeates both the intellectual property theft they do and the kind of level of investment they're making in technology domain after technology domain.

1:04:38Agreed. The Russians are the sidelight, but you can't lose this war. You can't because it's about China. Everything is about China going forward, it would seem. And I think it's really important, though, to make clear, as a policymaker at least, that my beef is with the Communist Party in China and Xi Jinping. It is not with the Chinese people. It is not with the Chinese diaspora. And that's, I think, important not just to sound appropriate, but the Chinese diaspora still communicates a lot on WeChat. And if you don't make that point, the Communist Party is going to make the case of, hey, you see all these Western nations, all these other nations, they're just anti-Chinese.

1:05:12And yeah, it's an interesting couple of years ago when I did that piece saying I love TikTok, I'm using a burner phone. This is about four years ago. Great product. It's going to be huge. I got attacked for being anti-Chinese. I said I'm anti-Chinese party. I know you've got to go last very quick question. Come on, let's go a couple more. This is much this is much more fun than what I got to go back to and much more interesting. Well, I'd love to see your TikTok proof if you could send it to me right away. I'd love that. But we can't go without asking about the Supreme Court. Should the court adopt a binding code of ethics?

1:05:43And if it doesn't, what can Congress do? It should absolutely adopt a binding code of ethics. Everybody else has to operate in public life. Congress does. Other judges do. The presidential office is supposed to. The Supreme Court, I don't understand, even from a Judge Roberts who I think has tried to pretty much play down the middle, why there's not a little more self-reflection there and a willingness to move forward on this. So if it doesn't, should Congress take action? Yeah, I went to law school, but I never practiced a day of law, so I don't have the foggiest notion of who would win that legal battle.

1:06:23But I think, yeah, I think Congress should. I think it would be hard-pressed to have a court say, we're going to reject Congress's notion of what the ethics are, whether that meets constitutional muster or not, leave it to others. So they might do that. But Senators Markey and Blumenthal have called for Clarence Thomas to resign over this. He didn't refuse himself from a case involving Harlan Crowe, who seems to be rather generous with him. Do you have anything to add? What I would add is I think the Supreme Court needs a code of ethics. And I think Judge Thomas, if he wants to maintain any level of credibility, needs to give his fellow justices and more importantly, the American public, some explanation of how and why this happened.

1:07:07You think he's going to do that? Shamelessness seems to be a disease in Washington these days. I'm not holding my breath. Not holding your breath. But should he resign? I'm not there at this point. I do think he needs to give some better explanation or description of how this came about. And I also think there needs to be completely on a going forward basis a set of ethics so that if there was any doubt in any of these justices' minds about what is appropriate or not, that you've got a code of ethics that you could refer to. I'm going to glom all over you right now. You were the first person to graduate, my understanding is from college, on either side of your family.

1:07:47You were a valedictorian. You started a business, you made a shit ton of money, and I say that in the best possible way, elected to the Senate, you head the Senate Intelligence Committee. I mean, relative to your peers, you're still a young man, but you're not a young man. What box is left for you to check when you think, when you're sitting there at night alone or talking to the people that matter to you, what do you want your crowning achievement to be? Is it around a certain issue? Is it around, like, what do you want to accomplish over the next 10 years? One, you're generous with what you said.

1:08:25And two, I get to do this on terms, this job. And I didn't think I fully appreciated when I first got it on terms that very few people do. I was lucky enough to do well in business before I came into this. I was governor before I was senator, so I got a little bit of executive experience. And frankly, the first couple of years of being senator, I didn't like at all. And I kind of stunk at the job because I wasn't used to being told, you know, go to the end of the line, wait your turn. And the whole notion of what I thought was my skill set, which is how do you get people that might disagree to yes, didn't seem to be valued very much.

1:09:00But the fact that I've got financial resources, the fact that I have the 535 members of Congress live closer. My main house is in Alexandria in Old Town and, quote, Sarah Palin, I can see the capital from the third floor of my house. So I only got a 20-minute commute as opposed to the men and women who got literally a full-day commute gives me an ability. And I think I've been governor-centered enough that I hope I'm doing this for the right reasons. And where I think my value add now is helping sort through these technology issues, recognizing, as Kara said, the challenge of our time is this technology competition with China.

1:09:39and if we can continue to be the innovative nation that we've always been, but recognize that there was a very different authoritarian mindset out there that could use technology for ways that could be really bad for the very nature of how humans exist, if I can help navigate that and do it in a bipartisan way, I like to joke I work in the only place in America where being a gang member is a good thing. I got my gang taps up and down both my arms all the time from all the gangs I've been in, on infrastructure and chips and you name it. So I like this job and I hope I do it pretty well. And it's the honor of my lifetime to represent the people of Virginia.

1:10:20Scott referenced your age, which is young for the Senate. I'm the only place in America at 68 years old, I'm one of the young guys. But I'm very immature. I'm very immature. Still old. So last week, you and I have talked a lot about misinformation over the years and we're both very familiar with it. Last week, an altered video of Dianne Feinstein returning to the Senate showed her getting dropped off by a hearse, which was terrible. But she has age issues. And there is that that is happening within Scott talks about it quite a bit is the age of Congress versus the age of the country and the ability to deal with important issues like tech, et cetera, et cetera.

1:10:55How do you look at that? How does that change, especially when we're in such a partisan state? Joe Manchin might shift over to the Republicans. He might not. He might run for president, et cetera, et cetera. This is a 50-50 country at this point. Yeah, and I'm not going to comment on Diane. I'm glad she's back. I hope she's doing better. I actually don't know if I fully agree that we're as divided as everybody says. I mean, the last two years in the Senate, as productive as any time I've been here, even as productive as the first couple years of Obama when Democrats had ran the whole show, So if you look at virtually everything we did in the last two years, from the infrastructure bill to the chips bill to the small step on guns to making sure we never have another January 6th, the so-called Electoral Count Act, it was all done bipartisan.

1:11:44And frankly, most of the stuff in the Inflation Reduction Act on the energy stuff, we could have gotten lots of Republican votes for. So I think there are a lot more rational people in both parties than the loud voices say. My appeal to people all the time is, you know, I'm proud to be a Democrat, but I don't care if you vote for a Democrat or Republican. Vote for somebody who knows how to get the yes. The number of guys and gals that I work with who, you know, can tell you what they're against and have this view that they are absolutely right on every issue blows my mind. And it's like, you know, the fact is people say, well, don't you get sick of working with XYZ?

1:12:18Yeah, but I don't have a choice. It's like a high school you never graduate from. You know, I got the same. If I get pissed at somebody, I still got to deal with them. So figuring out a way to deal with that person and at the same time encouraging more people that can then find a way to get to yes, I think is important. And I don't lose faith because the last couple of years was as productive as any time since I've been here. Let's get to yes, Scott. What do you say? Maybe. Maybe. We like to get to maybe. That's where we get to. Maybe. Probably not. Yes, but. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, Senator Warner, you're one of my favorite senators.

1:12:55Thank you so much. And I'm super excited for you to send me all that TikTok classified information. Super excited. Thank you, Senator. Kara, Scott, thanks so much. All right, Scott, isn't he an impressive senator? Are we impressed by the elected officials we bring here? Yep, 100%. I have to say. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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1:15:21Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Gosh, there's so many to pick from, I guess. I think here's what I, a fail was this story about the new details are coming out with a very complicated portrait around the Bob Lee's death. And this Wall Street Journal story was really quite something. You should read it. It's about, he lived in this thing called the lifestyle, which is, sounds like just a lot of sex and drugs. And I thought it was a really well done piece. And I feel sad for all those people. I'm aware of that group of people. And there's a lot more people in it than you think. And I feel sad for those really rich people that are sort of floating around from Cabo San Lucas to this place, to that place, and on a perpetual, I don't know, these smart people should spend more time doing smart things.

1:16:10And it seems, I get they want to explore and be themselves, But a 24-7, 365 burning man seems a waste of your life, in my opinion. But that's just me. So that was kind of sad. It made me sad. That piece made me sad. I wouldn't. I mean, if you're Tony Hsieh and you surround yourself with sycophants and you're abusing drugs and getting fascinated with fire and end up dying of smoke inhalation in the fire you started. I mean, I feel sorry for that guy. But you know why this group of tech elite engage in designer drugs and sex? because they can. Yeah, I know. Because it's a lot of fun. I wouldn't feel sorry for them.

1:16:49I don't feel sorry. I just felt sad after listening to it. I get it. But you know what? It's not. Reading it. The thing I find, we have such a kind of conservative society. A lot of the articles I saw were, ooh, it ends up that he was part of, they call it underground. Underground sex and drug culture. I'm aware of it. It's not. And it's like, okay, it's kind of, it felt to me sort of judgmental as if it somehow rationalized the murder. And that's not true at all. It's people engage in sex and drugs and rich people do it in disproportionate amounts in different ways because, you know, because they can.

1:17:25And most of them are able to handle it and manage their lives. I find that the way the media position it is as if, oh, it wasn't as tragic for him as we thought. No. There's definitely in our country a conservative bent that somehow if they find – you know, they found ketamine in his blood. And they said his blood – They found a lot of stuff in his blood. Yeah. They said his blood read like a pharmacy. And it's like, you know what? A lot of people are doing a lot of drugs. It doesn't mean it makes it any less tragic when they get stabbed three times. I get it. I get it. I just found – I found that the – I've met those people at their drifty little parties and – Ayahuasca parties?

1:18:01Whatever. I'm like, oh, my God. Do something else. I got to tell, the blame the homeless people are quiet. They're taking drugs. Oh, that was the worst part of this. Yeah. That they go to the demonization of homeless people and talk about incarceration, and the disproportionate number of the homeless and people incarcerated tend to be lower income and people of color. It's nothing but, in my opinion, non-empathetic, thinly-veiled racism. It is. 100. Anyway, that just made me sad. That made me sad. I get it. And my win? Louis Swisher! Happy birthday. Sorry. Good for him. Good for him. And good for you.

1:18:39Good for you. I have good kids. I like my kids. Yeah, we've heard that several million times. They're so good. Okay, so wins and fails. My win is Germany has finally committed to sending$3 billion in military aid to Ukraine. Germany is the largest economy in Europe. Europe cannot win a land war. And it's Europe. Let's be clear. It's Europe and it's NATO and repel the Russians without the full-throated support of Germany. And Germany, I think if you were to pick a place and say this is a great role model for how a democratic capitalist society should run, they're incredibly, an incredible culture.

1:19:19I mean, this country was leveled. And within 30 years, they were making the best cars and some of the best manufactured equipment in the world. And also best beer, quite frankly. But this is an impressive culture, highly productive, highly capitalist, very mindful of their past. I would argue in many ways more mindful than we are of our past, really attempted to come to grips with what has gone on there, put in place a lot of democratic rule. It is a progressive, wonderful country. But if it does not stand toe to toe with its other European allies in America on this, Europe's going to lose this war.

1:19:53And as Senator Warner said, that gives China and every other autocracy a green light that if they have a bigger army than their neighbors, it pays to just invade. So I'm really happy that the German government has decided to stop, I don't know, wringing their hands. They're sending V8, including these incredible drone technology you can launch, just handheld drones. Anyways, that's my win. And my fail is a little deeper. So earlier this week, I think it was the FDA recommended loosening the restrictions on who can give blood. And largely because of the AIDS crisis, there was a series of restrictions around whether gay men could give blood, a series of questionnaires that a lot of people found kind of correctly discriminatory.

1:20:43And finally, all of that has been removed. And there's questions that are applied to everybody now, I believe, around your recent sexual activity and whether you're the right person. to give blood. But I met a couple of gay guys in their early 30s, and they were talking about, and they had sort of a little bit of a, I don't want to call it conservative view on vaccines, but they were talking about vaccines while I didn't get it. I remember just thinking, these kids, I'm like, you just have no fucking idea. If you had been born 20 years earlier, like your friends everywhere would be dying. And DC and the press had this sort of conditional sympathy for them.

1:21:23It was like, oh, they're victims, but they kind of deserve what happened to them. I came of kind of age or professional age in 1992. And I hope that COVID is the worst thing that this generation has to face, but people forget. They just forget what happened. And the wonderful thing - Oh, conservative gay guys, they're always my favorite, but go ahead. The wonderful thing, I'm like, Jesus Christ, boss, you just have no fucking idea what your brothers went through who had the misfortune of being born in 1962, not 1982. And anyways, But there was this wonderful thing called science. And now your mortality rate for someone with HIV in many, most communities, your life expectancy is about the same as someone without HIV.

1:22:16And it was all through one thing. It was through science. And it was through bipartisan support of science. The closest thing we have to a truth is science. and now we do stupid things. And another one of the reasons I can't stand Elon Musk, prosecute Fauci, people questioning the vaccine. Vaccines are a gift from God. This is the best vaccine. The best thing, the best most innovative thing in history is not your iPhone. It's not chips, it's vaccines. Millions of lives saved every year, suffering death, disease, and disability. And so I worry that for some reason, We have somehow decided that your political stripes somehow should dictate whether you are pro or anti or skeptic of science.

1:23:04The godfather of my son, and he's open about his HIV status, you know, he's my age, much healthier than me because of science. Science. Anyway. We love science here on this show. We love science. We love science. And my loss is people who don't, for whatever reason, have decided that some view on science somehow indicates they're politically. You know, it's got nothing to do with politics. Stick with hot lesbians and do not go around conservative gay men. That would be my advice to you. All right. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

1:23:40Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIT-IT. We're going to do a special show soon. People want a parenting show from us. We'll give it to you. We'll give you a dating show. We'll give you a pickup line show. Not. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Please read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Jatot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Severio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

1:24:10We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Being anti-science doesn't say anything about your politics. it says that you're not closer to the truth. You do not walk hand in hand with the truth.

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1:25:20Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

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1:26:14Thank you.