Apple Sues OpenAI, States Move to Block Paramount Deal, and McConnell Conspiracy Theories

7:28Kara Swisher:They can't really use house people because the house is such a thin margin if they pull something from the house. It was pretty shocking because everyone was sort of focused on Mitch McConnell, who offered proof of life on Sunday after weeks of speculation of whereabouts in health. McConnell released a statement in a photo where he's holding—

7:45Scott Galloway:Wasn't that proof of near death?

7:47Kara Swisher:A lot of people don't think that photo is—they think it's AI, which I would tend to agree. I've talked to a lot of experts. He said a fall led to his hospitalization. He's in rehab and won't be returning to the Senate quite yet. As you say, biology is undefeated, but there's still so much suss around this guy, like what's happening with him. He's not running for reelection, and I think he wants to stay around at least so that the Democratic—

8:15Scott Galloway:The Republicans get to appoint as opposed to the Democratic governor.

8:17Kara Swisher:No, no, the Democratic governor has to appoint a Republican. The Democratic governor gets to appoint. It just has to be a Republican as they pass this law that now the Democratic governor might push back on and say it's unconscious. He should be able to do. He could appoint Thomas Massey, by the way, FYI, which would be something. So I don't think, you know, it's just what a mess. I mean, obviously, Lindsey Graham was not that old. 71 is not old. I talked to Jeff. I had dinner. I'm in San Francisco with Jeff last night. And he said, you know, he apparently had some chest pains and was ignoring them for a little bit and or had some discomfort.

8:50Kara Swisher:and this is something that just happens. It's what John Ritter died of. Yeah, aortic terror. Certainly if he had been diagnosed, they could have done something about it. But a lot of people, this can kill people really quickly. Any thoughts?

9:04Scott Galloway:I have a lot of thoughts here. Look, the internet's gone crazy with conspiracy theories. So I have what technically qualifies as a conspiracy theory because it's in the fringe now because social media can't make money off of it. And that is a 71-year-old male who is out of shape traveling and under constant stress had a heart attack and died. I just don't, that's my theory here. And the larger point, and I'm going to come back later in the show to Senator Graham when we do wins and fails, but the larger point is that one of the things that really curses the world right now and causes chaos, oppression, authoritarianism, can be reverse-engineered to really old people that won't fucking leave.

9:56Scott Galloway:Yeah.

9:56Kara Swisher:Oh, I like how you're pushing your hand on the desk.

9:59Scott Galloway:I'm just— Yeah.

10:00Kara Swisher:No, he's not 71, 71 old. I mean, I wouldn't— It is.

10:06Scott Galloway:Are you kidding to fly to Ukraine and back and understand TikTok? I mean, for God's sakes, go home. Yeah, he didn't want to go home. The average age of an American is 38. The average age of our senators is 65. Watching Mitch McConnell freeze up or talking about a 71-year-old man have a heart attack as if it was clearly done by the Russians or the Iranians. This isn't a story about Mitch McConnell.

10:29Kara Swisher:Right. For people who don't know, one of the conspiracy theories was Russia.

10:33Scott Galloway:It's a story about American political system that refuses to make room for the next generation.

10:39Kara Swisher:Yeah.

10:39Scott Galloway:If we got rid of tomorrow, if we decided globally, anyone over the age of 70 has to announce their retirement. Oh, you'd get rid of Netanyahu. You'd get rid of Putin. You'd get rid of Trump. You'd get rid of Biden. You'd get rid of these people in the Supreme Court that aren't even writing their own briefs anymore. They're just political ideologues. A third of the faculty, I work with the best faculty in the world. A third of them should be put on an ice floor.

11:04Kara Swisher:What, like 65, you're saying, right? Because the 65 is for The New York Times. 65 is for generals. Okay. I'm just curious. I'm curious.

11:12Scott Galloway:Call it 72, 70. Okay. Well, I want to find a group of neurologists. Mitt Romney had it perfectly. The guy looks 50 years old. He looks like an Abercrombie and Fitch model, but he's about to turn 80. And he cited that by the time you're 80, key parts of your brain have shrunk by 10 or 15%. We don't need presidents falling asleep in briefings. We don't. Do you remember the same bullshit? I get served the clips because they know it outraged me about the CNN show, I Feel Stupider with Abby Phillips. But basically the pattern is they've figured out they have a cheat code for massive viewership. They have essentially the chief propagandist for the Trump administration say something just ridiculous.

11:51Scott Galloway:And then a bunch of off-off Broadway progressives go fucking insane. And they get, I think it's the highest rated show on CNN. They have Scott Jennings say something ridiculous, right? And incendiary and stupid. And then he said, he said I had a conversation with him. Scott, you are lying. The same conversation I bet he had with Senator McConnell is the conversation I had with my father in hospice the last 14 months. And that is I would say something and my dad didn't know who I was or where he was. It is so, just think about it logically for God's sakes. All this tumult, all this doubt. If he managed to, if he could, if they were capable of pumping him full of stimulants and just getting a 15-second voice recording honoring his friend Senator Graham's passing.

12:38Kara Swisher:Yeah, he didn't say anything. They're very close. That was unusual.

12:40Scott Galloway:Because clearly he can't, Kara.

12:42Kara Swisher:Yeah, the picture was odd. I have to say, I think the issue is astonishing. And some of it funny, I hate to say it, was all the memes and everything around Lindsey Graham. Obviously, there's a lot of talk about his sexuality, which was, you know, people are like, it's too mean. I'm like, oh, just let the world do what it wants. But the memeing that's going on here and then the conspiracy theories are really heavy. Like, they're somewhat heavy with Graham about whether he was killed by the Russians or poisoned or this and that. And then McConnell, forget it. It's now, like, open. It's really fascinating.

13:20Kara Swisher:I'm curious if you think it's a good thing or a bad thing. Like these, the memeology and the conspiracy theories and everyone looks at the picture and where is his thumb? Is it really AI? Is it AI generated? Like it really just, nobody believes anything. Nobody believes. And even the believable stuff is unbelievable, if that makes sense.

13:40Scott Galloway:Well, conspiracy theories, they're more novel. Unfortunately, we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories, which feels harmless and fun, but essentially it attacks our institutions. that there's no one that's believable anymore. And we don't defer to our institutions. And so I think there's an underlying, because the problem with these conspiracy theories that, oh, mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, is that if you see it enough, because it's novel and the algorithms elevate it beyond its organic reach, you should have the right to say conspiracy theories. The issue is, should social media companies that have a profit incentive to elevate it beyond its organic reach, you then normalize conspiracy theories.

14:22Scott Galloway:They then become less outrageous, and then they become self-evident. And that's the problem, is that a lot of these fringe theories become normalized when they ordinarily wouldn't have because we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories. The broader point about Mitch McConnell into Senator Graham is that this isn't about in these memes, it's not about mocking an aging man. Aging comes for all of us. The failure belongs to us, the people and the institutions that keep insisting that octogenarians should be making the highest stakes decisions in the world. And leadership in both parties increasingly resembles the board of a company that forgot that succession planning is part of the damn job.

15:07Scott Galloway:And every CEO is told in their final responsibility that they need to leave the company stronger than they found it. And we fire CEOs who don't build a bench and announce their retirement at some point. And in politics, we've somehow decided the goal is to die with your hand on the steering wheel and take people out with you. And experience matters. Wisdom matters. But so does energy, cognitive sharpness, the willingness to pass the baton.

15:35Kara Swisher:But it's a game here. It's a game to keep him in place, even if he's weekend at Bernie's, right? Even if he's like.

15:42Scott Galloway:That's why we need age limits, Kara.

15:44Kara Swisher:That's right. No, I agree. But that's what's happening here because the numbers, he's not going to be able to pass the SAVE Act now because it's so tight, right? And it's just nothing's going anywhere. And that's what they're doing here is trying to, like, game the system, whether or not letting Bashir do his job or whatever. And in the House, the same thing. And, you know, it's all gaming. It's all gaming. And it doesn't matter if you have to prop up an old man. But and you do start to believe it. I looked at that picture and I was like, that looks funny. It looks like he had a facelift. They're right.

16:14Kara Swisher:But then is it true? I think it's fake.

16:16Scott Galloway:I'm going to be clear. I'm part of the tinfoil. I think it's fake.

16:19Kara Swisher:I don't know. I definitely am like, huh, sus. I literally was like texted Harvey Levin and said, the Republic is up to you to get in that hospital room and get us a real video of something. I mean, I can't believe no reporters can figure this out. And we have to rely on Scott Jennings. I agree with you.

16:40Scott Galloway:Let me just ask you an honest question. Let me ask you just a question that would require any semblance of logic. Given the Tomo, given the doubt, given the power, if he just recorded, not even a video, a 10-second voice memo.

16:57Kara Swisher:It's gone too far. He's got to be wheeled out in front of him.

17:00Scott Galloway:It would solve so many of his and the Republican Party's problems, and he clearly can't even do that.

17:07Kara Swisher:Right. I would agree with you. I think if they wheeled him out in front of or in the hospital and he said, I'm really sick and I'm trying to get better and that would solve it. But they won't do it. You're right because they can't do it. That's exactly right.

17:19Scott Galloway:To me, let me just wrap up because I do think that if the world would be such a better place if Netanyahu, Trump, Ginsburg, Biden had been forced to leave at a certain point. And the thing about America is we don't have an age problem. We have an incentive problem. We reward incumbency, celebrity, and fundraising over renewal. And the result is a government that too often looks like it's being run by people who remember the Cold War better than they understand AI. If you want democracy, you have to believe in the importance of turnover. The best leaders don't prove their greatness by never leaving.

17:59Scott Galloway:They prove it by building a bench that's ready to replace them. Think about how much, for God's sakes, what would the world look like if we had more Zelensky, and I'll even go Mom Donnie, and we had more youth for God's sakes. I would agree.

18:18Kara Swisher:And then they could duke it out, right? Then they could duke it out. That's fine.

18:22Scott Galloway:Yeah, let them have at it. Let them have their conspiracy theories.

18:25Kara Swisher:Speaking, I'm going to move on because we have to go to that. But Graham Plattner has, speaking of young, trying to get a young, vibrant person and has officially withdrawn from the Maine Senate race following the accusation of sexual assault, among other troubling revelations from his past, which we had discussed. We did not. There was a point where he said, if it goes further than this, then forget it. Democrats have until July 27th to name a replacement to challenge Republican Senator Susan Collins. Actually, the Democrats' chances went up with Plattner coming out because he was declining. The Maine Democratic Party will hold a convention on July 25th where candidates can make their case to delegates for a nomination.

19:00Kara Swisher:Let's hear a clip we got from Axios reporter Holly Otterbein, who's been covering the race and how things stand. Now that Graham Plattner is finally out of the race, Maine Democrats are scrambling to find a new nominee by the end of the month. A whole boatload of candidates have jumped in, about a half dozen, and most of them either ran for governor or Senate earlier this year and lost. One of my biggest takeaways from the race as it's been shaping up so far is that Graham Plattner is still having an enormous influence on the race. Now, granted, nobody wants his endorsement, but a lot of them, almost all of them to a person, sound like Graham Plattner.

19:38One of the biggest examples that I can point to is a man named Dan Kleban. He's a brewer. He's actually centering his campaign around voting against Chuck Schumer for a majority leader, a promise to do that. So I think that this shows that the main Democratic candidates have really internalized that the Democratic base is furious. They're angry at the economy. They're angry at Trump. They're angry at their party. And that's what this Platinumania was all about. And that in order to win, that's what they've got to replicate.

20:09Kara Swisher:That's very smart. Obviously, we were wrong about Graham Clabber. We basically, Scott and I said that the main voters should decide this. But if more came out, it would be a real problem. That's exactly what happened in this scenario. What it matters because it is about control of the Senate and they have a very good chance of grabbing this seat if they do it right.

20:31Scott Galloway:Look, I don't as Democrats do. We're more interested in self-flagellation than actually figuring out how to take control of the Senate. And I would argue I would argue the Democrats largely got it right here. when he had a Tottenkampf tattoo came to light. As a Jew, I found that really troubling. Having said that, a guy in the military dodging IEDs made a mistake, and I saw no pattern of anti-Semitism. I wasn't willing to disqualify him and say he's an anti-Semi because I saw an errant mistake. I didn't see a pattern. Then a woman said he was physical with her, very disturbing. She, in the middle of a campaign, was a Republican operative.

21:11Scott Galloway:All right. I think it was fair to say there's an asterisk around that accusation. When I was on holiday last week and I heard about this additional accusation of rape, I immediately went to YouTube and watched it. And within about five seconds, I'm like, she's telling the truth. He needs to drop out immediately. I mean, it was just, quite frankly, it was just, and he did. Or let me put it this way, he's still trying to hold on to his power. Basically, Democrats now are saying, how do we find Graham Platt in the minus the rape part? They're all trying to find a rough, you know, like an oyster brewer, you know, whatever you want to call it, tatted up that does, you know, that drinks Pabst Blue Ribbon or whatever.

21:53Scott Galloway:But now what we're doing is the following. We're, instead of focusing our energy on how we actually hold ourselves to a higher standard and we'll exit and offer people like this. Again, I'll go back to my favorite show on CNN. Scott Jennings said, they asked him, do you think Plattner should resign from the race? And he said, if there's corroborating evidence around this type of activity, sure, you should resign. Okay. The ultimate corroboration in our society around situations that have dramatic gray areas, context, nuance, you weren't there, is the following. We put them in front of 12 people from different backgrounds, different viewpoints.

22:38Scott Galloway:We let the prosecution have input into the jurors. We have the defense. The president of the United States was found civilly liable for sexual abuse. So, the notion that Democrats are spending more energy with this weird self-examination, as opposed to focusing their energy on how we will actually ticket people who run a yellow light versus the double murder homicide of plowing through stop signs that is the Republican Party, I find comical.

23:11Kara Swisher:Okay, so what do they do here? It looks like they're going to pick one of these, a lager or a brewer or whoever. They're going to get one of these people. What is the move here from— Troy Jackson.

23:25Scott Galloway:In a weird way, all this ridiculousness around holding onto the land of the dead with McConnell and the fact that it's not unusual for a 71-year-old man who's out of shape to drop dead. That happens, folks. I think it's going to help us. I'm more optimistic about the seat because I think they're going to find somebody who has a lot of chest hair, who says the right thing, who can tap into this movement, hopefully Plattner. Plattner started or tapped into this movement. I actually think he might be powerful on the campaign trail for the new person or whoever that is. You think just keep him out?

24:00Kara Swisher:No, keep him out. I mean, especially and including his advisors. Did you see that interview with the two Democrats? Oh, my God. With that cringe. They're going out. With what's that voice called?

24:08Scott Galloway:With a effective voice? Vocal fry.

24:10Kara Swisher:Vocal fry.

24:10Scott Galloway:Oh, my God. I'm like, Jesus. They're going out, the two of them. And he— Is this the Democratic Party? At the first— When I saw those two, I'm like, oh, my God, we're fucked. That's who's running the Democratic Party now?

24:21Kara Swisher:I mean, the whole thing. It was just like, oh, my, how they just decided on this guy and didn't do any vetting. That looks like any vetting whatsoever. I mean, this guy seems to have just, you know, at one point, a friend of mine, Lulu Garcia Navarro, had interviewed him for The New York Times. And she goes, is there anything else? And he goes, no. Like, and of course, there was lots else. Like, and that was pre the second part, which was a lot of people saying he was, you know, a pig. And then there was a third part. This guy's really needs some help. You're right.

24:51Scott Galloway:He should just exit the stage. He should just go away right now. And get some help. But I do think, I think the aging, quite frankly, is going to shine a light on Susan Collins, who is 76. And quite frankly, looks 86.

25:08Scott Galloway:I mean, enough already.

25:10Kara Swisher:Enough already.

25:13Scott Galloway:This is a layup. Find some guy, you know, with tattoos.

25:19Kara Swisher:Why don't you go up there? Do you have chest hair? I don't recall. Well, you don't have chest hair, do you?

25:22Scott Galloway:Oh, my God. Are you kidding? No. They need to find a candidate that has pieces of more masculine men in their crap than me. Yeah. They need to find a dude. A dude. This is a problem with the Democratic Party. Not a lady?

25:36Kara Swisher:Not a lady.

25:38Scott Galloway:I'm just going to be very honest, Tara. I know that.

25:40Kara Swisher:I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. It has to be a guy.

25:43Scott Galloway:Let's be smart. Not politically correct. Find a fisherman who hasn't raped people.

25:50Kara Swisher:Right. Find a logger.

25:53Scott Galloway:Okay, that might work.

25:55Kara Swisher:A lesbian would work. That might work. Well, the fact that the Democrats cleared the field for Janet Mills, that to me was a Chuck Schumer fucker. Like cleared it for an older lady who did a very good job but was not palatable to voters because of age and other issues. That's the problem is Democrats. There could have been a really great race here and they didn't, but let's hope there is one now. Okay, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Apple sues OpenAI. This is a corker.

26:25Scott Galloway:This is advertiser content from Harvey AI. We have a choice over who we work with and who we don't, specifically who we allow to advertise and who we don't. And for those of you who watch my content, I am not an AI catastrophist. I'm an AI optimist. I think it's going to create more jobs than it destroys. And I think our job as professionals is to figure out how to leverage these tools. AI, more than almost anything I do in terms of what I could point to for real economic leverage and savings, is 100 % in the legal fields. Harvey is the AI designed specifically for legal work, trusted by leading law firms and enterprise legal teams.

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30:39Kara Swisher:technology that empowers people everywhere. Apple is asking for a jury trial and demanding OpenAI destroyed proprietary material and pay damages. This is something else. This is right in Steve Jobs' playbook, similar when Apple was filing suits against Android companies. It'll be really interesting. Also, I'm going to go through the whole thing. OpenAI is number two executive. It's Fidgie Simo. It's going to have a big role when the company went public. Just step down. She's leaving for health reasons. Elon, of course, is loving this. He posted about Sam Altman on X. He takes scamming to a whole new level.

31:09Kara Swisher:He calls him Scam Altman, to which Sam replied, homeboy, you're the one selling public market investors on short-term space data centers. Elon then responded after stealing an open-source AI charity, then stole all of Apple's phone technology. Wow. And by the way, SpaceX shares are really dropping almost below their IPO price. So what a fucking mess. Let's dig into it, Scott. Any of these many things that are happening here. Open AI has had, I mean, the hits keep on coming and not good hits.

31:38Scott Galloway:It's a hot mess.

31:39Kara Swisher:It's a hot mess of a company.

31:40Scott Galloway:I mean, they're being sued every which way but loose. They've had, I think their head of safety just resigned.

31:45Kara Swisher:They did, yeah.

31:46Scott Galloway:They've shelved their IPO because it's clear the money furnace. I mean, I feel, and I'm writing a post on this, for the first time I'm like, okay, this is 99. And if you remember 99, it was first there was B2C went. We knew the technology was going to survive, but there wasn't enough demand on the front end. So the pets.com and the Amazon got cleared out first or went down 90%. And they're like, but wait, we believe in the technology, so it must be about B2B. And then when that didn't work, we went to the infrastructure place. OpenAI and Anthropic have both, it looks like, delayed their IPOs. All of a sudden, what looked like a supply crisis, remember just a few weeks ago we were talking about there aren't enough data centers, there's not enough energy.

32:32Scott Galloway:All of the front end creating the demand, the majority of it has flipped to supply because they weren't creating enough demand on the front end. All of a sudden, XAI and Meta have said, oh, wait, we don't have the demand we thought on the front end. We're going to flip to supply. So I think the cracks are really beginning to emerge.

32:53Kara Swisher:Because then the supply will go down. And also then you have Alex Karp and others, There's like a Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella saying, hey, these AI companies are stealing your business. They're analyzing, handing it over to them, lets them become competitors. That's a really interesting new wrinkle, too, is like they're going to steal your things. Of course, people who have stolen things are telling you they're going to steal your things. So, yeah, I agree with you. Something is about to, like, break, I feel. Don't you? I mean, it just feels, like, very precarious is what I would use the expression.

33:26Scott Galloway:Oh, this is, this is, I feel like we're in Q3, Q4 of 99 right now. And just to get back to the case, Tan is accused of coaching employees on how to circumvent Apple's data security policies and encouraging them to bring confidential parts to interviews.

33:42Kara Swisher:If they have the goods on that, that's really bad.

33:44Scott Galloway:Oh, my God. And engineer Cheng Liu allegedly kept his Apple laptop and exploited a bug to download files, texting LOL so funny. And Apple stated that OpenAI has had to take unlawful shortcuts while under mounting pressure to deliver its first commercial hardware product. So if this was one of the AI players going after the other, but when Apple goes after you, and not only that, this is going to get a lot of attention because quite frankly, this is going to snare, the strafe is going to hit Johnny Ive, who is a bit of an iconic legend there. Explain.

34:13Kara Swisher:He was mounting a device company with OpenAI that then had its own accusations.

34:19Scott Galloway:He started a device company that was acquired by OpenAI for$6.5,$7 billion, the majority of which I think will be written off. I think that will prove in terms of write-offs. I think Johnny Ives is a genius and an icon and deserves all his acolytes. That will go down as arguably the worst acquisition of the last few years because I think they're going to have to write off the entire thing. And the interesting thing will be what the legal remedies will be, because it'll take months or years depending on how quick open AI is to settle. However, it's going to have an immediate impact on the business.

34:51Scott Galloway:The device is expected to be unveiled this year. This gives them the excuse, Kara, and this is my prediction for later in the week, the device is never going to happen.

34:58Kara Swisher:Yeah, same thing with their browser, apparently. 100%. It was interesting, because remember when this happened, it was like, oh, Apple just gave open AI a real lift. And then the deal degenerated into nothing. Like, really, and now accusations of stealing. They're such a hot mess. Like, every day, someone leaves. People, I think, are quite well-regarded leave. I think the number two executive really had health issues, really, indeed, from what I understand from people I know. But it seems like, what do they do now? And, of course, Elon then looks like, well, just because a scammer tells you you're a scammer doesn't mean you're not a scammer, if that makes sense.

35:39Scott Galloway:I don't think Elon. Matters.

35:41Kara Swisher:He's just using, he's just piling on right here.

35:43Scott Galloway:I can tell you as someone who's just spent a lot of time in boards talking about the right type of CEO, what people fail to realize is that there are just very few people in the world who can go from A to Z. There are people who can envision a company and hook up the printer and raise the initial seed capital and get it to letter C and D. There's some really talented people who can take it to institutional rounds and get it to letter H and get it to scale. and then there's like a few dozen people in the world who are able to then do that and then run a public company. It's just you're asking someone to be a decathlete.

36:15Scott Galloway:And the way I would describe Sam Altman, if I were on that board, I would be saying, this guy's a visionary. I don't think he's an operator. I don't think he's assessing the financials, the capital commitments, the risks.

36:27Kara Swisher:The relationships with people. There's a lot of, you know.

36:29Scott Galloway:The ability to retain talented people. In some, he quite frankly looks like, the guy's clearly a visionary. The question is, is he an operator? Steve Jobs was a visionary and a marketer. Tim Cook was the operator in the supply chain to go from$300 billion to$3 trillion. In my view, I think Sam Altman should be kicked up to chairman, and they should bring in an operator that understands how to run this type of complex organization.

36:55Kara Swisher:I think that's exactly what's going to be. Any name you can think of?

36:58Scott Galloway:I wanted to ask you.

37:00Kara Swisher:He's got a lot of burnt bridges. I'll tell you that. They're piling up. You know what the example is?

37:04Scott Galloway:I apologize if you can interrupt you. It was, it's going from Travis Kalanick to Dara Kastrashahi. They need a Dara Kastrashahi.

37:10Kara Swisher:Who is Dara Kastrashahi? They really do. Because then they could clean it up and, you know, because Sam has got a lot of people who don't like him.

37:17Scott Galloway:And by the way, Travis is a genius and an innovator. He just wasn't the right guy for the company at the time.

37:22Kara Swisher:And he's also a terrible person. Who do you think? I'd have to think really hard. There are several. The thing is, you've got to keep it exciting because, you know, your competition is Dario, right? who seems to have some skills, more skills than Sam does and moving it forward, right? So that's who your competition is. But you're right, Dara is, Dara, that kind of a Dara-like personality is like that. And there's not many, I suppose, Brett Taylor, maybe? I don't know. That's an interesting one.

37:54Scott Galloway:That's a great one, actually. Yeah.

37:57Kara Swisher:I'd have to really think. I'd have to really think. There are several. There are several. you know had she lived Susan Wojcicki would have been on the top of my list for that I can't think of a whole lot of people though I just can't I just can't I mean they're going to have to do something but is this board strong enough to do it that's the thing or are they going to stick with Sam but he's definitely created all you know and him by the way them tweeting back and forth they look like fucking he just walked into Elon's trap because Elon everyone thinks Elon's a villain and an asshole and so Sam by fighting with him is it's a mistake.

38:32Kara Swisher:And I liked Homeboy. Agreed. And I agree with him about the short-term data centers. Most people think it's kind of ridiculous. But you walk into everyone, it's already built in that Elon's an asshole. And so you just become an asshole at the same time. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. I think you're right. I think they're going to have to replace him. I do. I agree with you. All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back. California and 11 other states file a suit to block the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. I'll be talking to California Attorney General Rob Bonta all about it.

39:27Scott Galloway:Meta sees this as an opportunity to build the next generation of trade workers who will power the nation's future. That's why they've launched America's Workforce Academy. It's a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. It's a cost-free program that offers paid training with a job upon completion. Graduates earn credentials designed to travel with them across employers and industry sectors. This is the largest private sector commitment to the skilled trades with a job guarantee in American history. Meta has put an initial$115 million first-year investment.

39:58Scott Galloway:Their 2026 pilot locations are Louisiana, Ohio, Indiana, and Texas. So, bottom line, America's Workforce Academy, built by Meta, offers paid training, a job, and a path to America's future. Because they believe the future is for everyone. Learn more at meta.com slash americasworkforceacademy. Is Kamala Harris running for president again?

40:22Kara Swisher:Listen, I might. I'm thinking about it. But does anybody want that? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, I think so. Well, I don't see why not. Absolutely, I think Kamala Harris will run for president again.

40:36Scott Galloway:I don't think there'll never be a woman president in the United States. Now, wait, wait, wait, you can't just walk away on that. Tell us why. I know it's still early to talk about 2028, but as we build to our post-Trump future, it seems to be a big question about the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris leads all of the presidential polling. So does this mean that the person who led the ticket in 2024 is going to lead the party again in 2028? The campaign needs to be called bye-bye Biden. It's just a tainted brand. Do you think from a donor community largely that there's any appetite for a Harris return?

41:13I don't. I'm Estet Herndon, and this is America Actually. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

41:22Scott Galloway:One, two, three. I'm stand-up comedian, John Marcos Cerezi. And I'm actor, penis model, Russell Daniels. The Downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are. Because let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode, we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guests' lives, the world, but in a fun way. Bottom line is you're going to walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Huron, Busy Phillips, Stavros Halkius, Laverne Cox, Hassan Piker, Alana Glazer. I promise you're going to have a good time. Now on the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The Downside.

42:09We're back.

42:10Kara Swisher:California Attorney General Rob Bonta, along with Attorneys General, I think that's right, from 11 other states, a dozen just filed a lawsuit to block Paramount's 110 billion dollar merger with Warner Brothers Discovery. The suit alleges the merger will help reduce competition, creating higher prices, less content, and hurt movie theater. Cable distributors is quite a narrow lawsuit. Bonta and his fellow AGs are asking Paramount and Warner not to close the deal while the case moves through the courts. So a couple things we want to talk about here. It's very narrow. From what I understand, talking to people, there's a lot of feeling at Paramount.

42:46Kara Swisher:I don't think they thought it was going to be a dozen of these things. I think the negotiations didn't go very well between Bonta and Paramount. There was this weird threatening to leave California, which I think is nonsense. So, Scott, give me your quick thoughts here.

43:00Scott Galloway:I'm mixed here, Kara, because I can see why when Republicans in the Trump administration are happy to weaponize the courts and the legal system to intimidate the press, I kind of applaud AGs and DAs in blue states pushing back and say, all right, girlfriend, two can play at this game. Because quite frankly, I don't think there's a legal basis to claim that it's monopoly power. I think on a pure economic competitive level, when you're facing YouTube and these different platforms, I don't think it's a monopoly. But at the same time, what's good for the goose, right? I would just go through market share and say in terms of viewership time, you know, YouTube's at 12%, Netflix is at nine.

43:48The combined, I just fail to see

43:51Scott Galloway:how this triggers any sort of legal review. What is the legal justification for blocking this merger? It kind of just comes down to that.

44:00Kara Swisher:That it creates like, that it becomes 86 % of the market is shared by four companies only versus six to seven or whatever. It creates, you know, this is the idea that it creates a smaller group of buyers, a smaller group of distributors. And that's essentially it. And then theater owners will have to raise the prices. A lot of actors are kind of upset. I think he has to do this. I think you're right. They have to show a little teeth here on some level, even if they.

44:28Scott Galloway:So the argument on the ground, and I believe this, I believe that tens of thousands of creative jobs are going to go away. I think there's going to be a scream let out by the creative community that they don't even know what happened to them if this merger goes through. Because I think the only way to justify$112 billion acquisition price is to find, quote unquote, efficiencies through AI. And they're going to move harder at this than anyone, despite their commitment to produce more movies or what have you. The problem is, is that the argument that there's too much concentration is like, well, folks, we're trying to compete with the people you say are too powerful.

45:02Scott Galloway:Yeah, yeah. And that if you don't let us merge, all you're doing is strengthening numbers one, two, and three.

45:07Kara Swisher:Right. Yeah. I think that's what I'll say. I just got a note from someone at Paramount that said it's a silly and laughable market definition. That's their answer, I guess.

45:15Scott Galloway:I don't think – I think this gets swatted away. But at the same time, if you – there's such a huge ticking fee of like a half a billion dollars a month if this thing continues to go on.

45:24Kara Swisher:Yeah, starting September 30th.

45:25Scott Galloway:That they have leverage. They may be able to extract something.

45:28Kara Swisher:Yeah, especially if Britain also does it. It'll definitely slow them down. I think it's going to close. I'm not sure what, you know, we'll see where it goes. But they definitely have, they've dirtied up Paramount quite a bit with actors, talent, and I think the general public. And I don't think the CBS stuff has helped. I think it's a minor part of it, but it's gotten an outsized attention. And I think they really, I think they may, and having the dinner with Trump thing wasn't a good look, you know, bringing reporters there. I've told them this. But we'll see. We'll see where it goes, and we'll see what Bonta says.

46:03Kara Swisher:I'll also note I extended an offer for an interview with Paramount's counsel. Okay, Scott, now get out of here. I'm going to talk to California AG Rob Bonta. California Attorney General Rob Bonta is with me now. He's in the middle of quite a busy day, Rob. How's it going? A good busy day. It's going well. We filed our lawsuit today, and we're excited. Yeah, so nice backdrop. You did it in front of the Hollywood sign. I just want to know how you thought. It's very well coordinated online. You've got a lot of all the other AGs. You've got a number of senators, et cetera, sort of talking it up. Talk a little bit about why you were positioning it.

46:41Yeah, I mean, we have lined up and synchronized different attorneys general to talk about the lawsuit that we're collectively bringing. There's 12 of us in California plus 11 others. Some of the other statements that you're seeing from Senator Murphy, Senator Warren, that's just organic. We haven't spoken to them. They're watching this issue and they have a viewpoint and they're expressing it. And we appreciate the support that they're showing. We're focused on the law and the facts here. And this proposed merger between Paramount and Warner Brothers violates Section 7 of the Clayton Act. And we think that the market concentration in the three markets that we've named, it's presumptively unlawful.

47:20Distribution. And yeah, right. Yeah. Distribution of wide release films and also blockbusters and then licensing of cable channels. So we think we've got three clear markets where they violate the law.

47:34Kara Swisher:So let's talk about the goals here because it's much narrower. You could have gone a lot of different directions here in this lawsuit. And it's quite narrow, actually. But what do you hope to get out of this lawsuit? And how did it come to this? What's the goal? The goal based on the lawsuit is to block the merger. If there is some sort of discussion that happens and we're not inviting it or shutting the door on it, it's up to Paramount or Warner Brothers whether they want it. We will always engage in good faith. We will listen. But we've expressed our concerns very clearly, chapter and verse, in nearly 40-page complaint, which talks about the markets and talks about the impacts of the market concentration and how audiences will be harmed and workers will be harmed and quality will erode and output will decline.

48:21And we think we set it forth. And if they have something that they want to recommend or suggest to address our concerns, we will listen. But right now, we're asking to block the merger. We're asking them to agree to not close the merger, consummate the merger while we're in litigation. If they don't agree, we're going to file a temporary restraining order, and we think we'll get it.

48:39Kara Swisher:You haven't done that yet for people to understand, if they don't agree to slow it down, correct? Is that correct? But we need an answer from them today, and if they don't agree today, we're filing later today. It doesn't sound like they're going to agree today. That's my impression. They've released a statement. They're also talking to people. say I'm pretend I'm Macon Delrahim, their general counsel. Let me say what they said on the record. Paramount fired back saying in a statement, the practical effect of this lawsuit is to shield those dominant streaming platforms like Netflix and technology companies from much needed competition.

49:15Kara Swisher:Obviously, Netflix, you were noting Disney in here and Sony and Universal. Netflix and others are not in this. There's no mention of them. Explain why, answer what he's saying right here. He's talking about something that's not part of the lawsuit. He's talking about the streaming markets. We haven't brought a lawsuit based on the streaming markets. I know that's where they think they can win the PR battle, but that has nothing to do with the lawsuit and the legal case that we've brought. As you mentioned, these are highly diversified companies. We considered multiple markets before deciding on the three that we've challenged.

49:50And he is trying to rebut something we're not even saying. We haven't challenged the streaming markets. But I think they like that, you know, the worst smaller than Netflix. Netflix is the bad guy here. Don't look at us. I think they like the deflection in that. And I understand that from a PR perspective, but they are completely missing the mark from a legal perspective and a factual perspective.

50:10Kara Swisher:Should you have included Netflix in here? Let's just address it. Because one, I mean, one of the reactions I got was it's a silly and laughable market definition. Why aren't they included? Because when we looked at this, we looked at streaming and we looked at the impacts and we thought we had a better case with the three markets that we chose. And so, you know, when we bring a case, we sort of try to envision all the aspects of it, going to court with an expert, the likely defenses and rebuttals from the defendants, you know, what the HHI, the index on market concentration shows, how it measures up under US versus Philadelphia and the market share.

50:54That's an appropriate way to look at it. And we did that and landed with the three markets that we set forth in the complaint.

51:01Kara Swisher:Even if you can imagine that all these markets are now merged with each other, I think that's where they're going. It's all the same thing, essentially. And you are saying it is not all the same thing, in other words. I think even Hollywood and the entertainment industry don't think they're all the same thing. I think they treat blockbusters differently than wide-release films. Wide-release films are different than select release, are different than streaming. They're different. I think some people, maybe some people see overlap, maybe some people see some similarities, but the market definition, as you know, is very important in these cases.

51:36It is, right. We think we've landed on three very clear markets where antitrust law has been violated, and we think they'll hold up to scrutiny.

51:45Kara Swisher:So what you have to do is you have to prove the likelihood to succeed on its merits to get an injunction, a temporary restraining order, essentially. Right. It goes to the Northern California court. Do you feel you have the likelihood to succeed on its merits with this more narrow group of issues you're bringing up? Yeah. You know, we think this case is very strong. We think that just like Nextar Tegna, you know, we went in, we saw it and secured, received a preliminary injunction basically based on the market concentration, the percentage. Right. You can either get a preliminary injunction or a TRO, correct.

52:22Kara Swisher:That's correct. Right. And I think we'll probably file them both at the same time, but we want immediate relief, immediate blockage of the merger. And we think that with these three markets as defined, we think they're appropriate markets to define as we've defined them. And we think, you know, based on the index that courts rely on for market concentration, they are already presumptively illegal. So we think we have a very good chance of securing it. And some lawyers, there's some reporting that lawyers at the Justice Department felt that too, correct, on some of this stuff. Yes. But there are other jurisdictions that aren't that much under the sway of this particular company.

53:02Kara Swisher:How do you look at theirs, sort of passing, like a lot of these countries have passed on, not Britain, but others have, others across the world have? I think it's appropriate for each regulator within their jurisdiction and, you know, their geographic market to consider the impacts. And their geographic market is different than ours. Maybe the product market is similar, but ours is different. And so this suggestion, I think, that Paramount Warner Brothers, and they try to advance this in their statement today, is that, hey, all these other regulators approved us. What gives here? Well, it's a different market with different impacts.

53:39It's a different analysis. What the fuck? What the fuck, Rob?

53:43Kara Swisher:So when you think about the response, not what do you want, but there was some talk that you wanted Paramount to divest CNN. that you said that and then you'd bless the deal. You've denied these reports. But what do you think of the idea? I never said that. Speaking for a friend. Speaking for a friend. Yeah, I'm teasing. Yeah. You know, I never said that. And it was interesting that that was reported. You know, it's come to a place in this, you know, I guess it's high stakes. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of, you know, gossip, just straight out lies that are being advanced. And maybe that's part of a PR campaign.

54:18Maybe it's people, you know, just want to be part of something that they don't have inside knowledge on. But, you know, that definitely could be part of an outcome here. I would say perhaps it could be necessary, but it wouldn't be sufficient.

54:39Kara Swisher:Because you're talking about theaters, right? Because theaters is not CNN. Yeah, I mean, it's not CNN at all. And so, you know, when you get into settlement discussions, should that ever happen? here. You can be creative. There can be different aspects and components to it. But we're looking right now just at the litigation and the markets as we've defined them. Now, there's also a report, as you know, and I know you addressed it in front of the Hollywood sign, that David Allison is considering moving Paramount's headquarters and allocating the company's$30 billion in planned spending, reallocating if the lawsuit goes through.

55:14Kara Swisher:Personally, I don't believe, I think I take in the under on this one, but how do you respond to that? Do you believe that could happen? Are you worried about it? I mean, it feels like a potential monopolist trying to bully a state that is doing its job to regulate them. And it feels like a last ditch, you know, desperate effort to try to blackmail California and 11 other states into not enforcing antitrust law and to allowing an illegal proposed merger to go through. And that's not going to happen. It didn't work. We're not doing that. We have filed our complaint in court. And I think they're on overdrive on their PR and what they're trying to suggest.

55:57And the statement that you were reading from, it feels like 1984, up is down, black is white. This is great for workers. Listen to the workers. What are they saying? They're saying this is terrible for workers. But I guess we should listen to David Ellison and Paramount Warner Brothers and believe that it's good for workers and good for competition. They say it's good for all the things it's bad for. It's bad for workers. It's bad for prices. It's bad for audiences. It's bad for content creativity.

56:23Kara Swisher:There's certainly a lot of Hollywood people that are not for this thing. They weren't for the Netflix thing either, even more so, I would say. Right. But where did you—the workers were the ones you had been hearing from the most. Who had you been hearing from the most in those groups? The distributors? The theaters? The actors? Directors? Writers? Was there one that had more weight than others? No, but their collective voice was so strong and so unanimous. We talked to writers. We talked to producers. We talked to directors. We talked to actors. We talked to the crew. You know, IATSE. I attended hearings.

56:56And honestly, I was inspired by the courage of actors who stood to lose a lot. And people who work in this space who could be punished, blacklisted, who could be prevented from having a job. And they spoke on principle with courage and conviction. And that meant a lot to me. I didn't really hear from anyone who thought the deal was good for the entertainment industry except for David Ellison and, you know, and Paramount and Warner Brothers. Those who are stakeholders who would be affected.

57:28Kara Swisher:To be fair, there are some studio people that are like, look, it's getting hard against the tech people. And more, the bigger, stronger series of studios might be better to hold up in the current environment. There are people who do say that. That hasn't been strongly expressed to us, but I accept that there's some outside of the Paramount Warner Brothers who support the merger. Two more things. This is 12 states. They're all Democratic states. Some people think it's a long putt you're doing here. At the same time, others say, this is what Scott Gallagher was saying, it's good that you're pointing this out, that you're bringing it up, that you're punching back in some fashion.

58:06Kara Swisher:Do you think it's, should you have tried to get more of a Republican, a GOP-led attorney general? You don't want it to look like a Democratic attack necessarily, but it's also a sign of things to come in the upcoming months, especially if the Republicans lose the House, the control of the House. The door's not closed on additional states joining, Democratic or Republican. And I was grateful that our Ticketmaster Live Nation case was very much bipartisan. Our NextArtegna case is bipartisan. This one could be, maybe should be. I think you have to ask the Republican states why they joined Ticketmaster Live Nation or the ones that joined NextArtegna are feeling they shouldn't join this one.

58:50on just law and facts. I don't think there's a principle, legal or factual reason not to. So I don't know why they wouldn't. And so maybe they're just waiting. Maybe they don't want to be first through the door, but maybe we'll join later. That happened in Ex-Artegna, the states that we started with on the filing date. It grew from then. And this should be nonpartisan, bipartisan, whatever you want to call it. This is just making sure that the markets are free and fair, not rigged, and that there's competition.

59:16Kara Swisher:Yeah, maybe Arkansas wants to become Hollywood. I don't know. in some fashion. But they are big states, by the way. New York's in there, too. Yes. You got to always take notice of New York and California and some really important states. You have. I think they didn't think Washington State was going to join. That's my impression. But they did. In fact, they did. All right. Of course, one of the things they're raising is you want to be governor in California. You need to do this. Would you address that issue? That this is good for you, for Rob Bonta himself, to sort of punch it. a bunch of, not just the Ellisons, but the Trump administration.

59:50Kara Swisher:You know, they have the links. They've been having a lot of dinner together. Can you address that, please? Sure. This is good for the law. It's good for the rule of law. It's good for competition. It's good for consumers who are screaming that affordability is their biggest challenge and they don't want prices to go up at movie theaters or on their cable bills. This is a bread and butter issue about how our markets are supposed to work. They're supposed to be free and fair with competition. Prices are supposed to stay reasonable. Choice is supposed to stay high and competition high, quality high.

1:00:24And so maybe those things are good for me personally. Maybe they're bad for me personally. I have no idea, but I'm doing what I think is right. I'm doing it based on principle, based on the law, based on the facts. And I am not running for governor. I am running for your election as California Attorney General. I'd be honored if my bosses, the voters of California, voted for me. But maybe some of them will hate this action. and maybe some will love it and maybe some will be in between. I have no idea. But I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do, not based on any political outcome or consequence from it.

1:00:58Kara Swisher:Okay. All right. Thank you so much, California Attorney General Bonta. I really appreciate it. And I'll be watching to see what happens next in the next 24 hours, I guess. All right. Thanks, Rob. My pleasure. Thanks, Cara. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

1:01:17It all started with Call Me Maybe. Over 10 years ago, we created Switched On Pop to listen closer, uncovering the song craft behind even the glossiest of pop hits. Since then, we've released almost 500 episodes. We've defined the sounds of our modern soundtrack and interviewed hundreds of musicians and music insiders, including the singer of Call Me Maybe herself, Carly Rae Jepsen. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And on July 14th, Switched On Pop is embarking on a new chapter. We're stepping out from behind our microphones and in front of the camera to stream our podcast on Netflix.

1:01:51Now, you'll still be able to listen to the show anywhere you get podcasts, but now you'll be able to watch us each week, breaking down the sounds of the moment, digging into musical minutia with your favorite artists and offering questionable dad jokes as always. We're kicking off our Netflix debut with a four-part series on the art of the song, with help from artists, producers, and songwriters like Aaron Dessner, Audrey Hobart, Trevor Horn, Cypress Hill, and Taylor Parks. Streams switched on pop on Netflix and anywhere you get podcasts every Tuesday, starting on July 14th.

1:02:22Scott Galloway:The New York Times is a newspaper which makes articles that you can read. But the Times is also trying, again, to become a video company. Why? Here's Joe Kahn, the Times' top editor. I think we were in a race against time to make sure that good quality journalism competes with AI-generated slop and influencer, non-original journalism out there on the internet. I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, the show about what happens when media and technology collide. You can hear my conversation with Times executive editor Joe Kahn right now, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

1:03:07Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, welcome back. Let's hear some wins and fails. You go first.

1:03:12Scott Galloway:When I was in Miami and at the Hard Rock Stadium watching Team England play Norway, and Norwegian fans started singing with English fans, Sweet Caroline, and then English fans started doing that rowing motion, it just gave me so much hope I was so desperate for. I just, When you hear 70 ,000 people who come together, like kids who love each other, but their parents have been arguing, it just that collective humanity and the athleticism. I really do believe that the World Cup has tapped into this need to remind each other that we have more that we share than differences. I just, that was such a, you know, I've been to, I don't care about sports.

1:03:58Scott Galloway:And then every four years I get really into it because my kids are into it. I took my son to Moscow and St. Petersburg eight years ago. We went to Qatar four years ago. This is by far the best because this is the encapsulation of something wonderful. And that wonderful thing is that people around the world feel, especially in the West and in democracies, feel a sense of camaraderie and comity of man. And our leaders have been getting in the way of that. And they've been dividing us. And we're actually not that divided. We're being divided. and that game just reminded me of it. And it just...

1:04:32Kara Swisher:It is a contrast to like the political stuff because the minute Lindsey Graham died, Trump was like taking advantage of it. Like so gross, but you know what I mean? Like it's such a contrast.

1:04:42Scott Galloway:Well, you know what's made this World Cup great, quite frankly, is none of these leaders are anywhere fucking near it. That's right. Thank you for staying out of it.

1:04:49Kara Swisher:Yeah.

1:04:50Scott Galloway:Thank you for staying out of it. Just don't poison it. And in the moment that Trump did enter it, it kind of fucked everything up for the American team, in my opinion. Anyways, that's my one. My fail is a little bit, I've thought a lot about this, and I really want to get your viewpoint, including if it's pushback. When I was at UCLA, I didn't think I knew a gay person. And what I found out, I was at UCLA at a pivotal time for gay rights, or society as it relates to how it feels about the gay community. And that is, within two years of graduating, I found out not only did I know gay people, but my roommates, my best friend, and several of my fraternity brothers were gay.

1:05:29Scott Galloway:And the reality was from 1982 to 1987 at UCLA and in America, you were not allowed to be gay.

1:05:37Kara Swisher:You were not.

1:05:38Scott Galloway:You just, and those of us who are heterosexual never really and still don't understand the shame that America was putting on gay people. And I know you felt that.

1:05:50Kara Swisher:I definitely did.

1:05:52Scott Galloway:And you can relate to this. And then the way we treated people who got this plague, the shame, the shameful way that we treated this community when they were at their, you know, these young men, mostly young men who were at their most vulnerable. And so I empathize with men, and I haven't walked in those shoes that were closeted. But the reality is I think Senator Graham deserves to be lauded for his service. His ability to get deals done, he was well-liked, but I don't think his legacy is going to be kind. No, I don't either. And this is where I go with this. And I'm really reticent to talk about this way because I do believe you need to err on the side of positive and grace when someone passes.

1:06:44But my belief is that Senator Graham's hypocrisy will be his legacy.

1:06:49Scott Galloway:And his hypocrisy isn't about being gay. It's quietly benefiting from the courage of people who risked everything to secure equal rights and then turning around and arguing those rights should be denied to others, which he consistently did.

1:07:05Kara Swisher:And then affiliating with people who were pulling it and affiliating with people pulling those.

1:07:09Scott Galloway:And you can relate to this because you are one of the people here. Every freedom the LGBTQ community enjoys today and that Senator Graham enjoyed was because someone else paid the price. I would agree. People lost jobs, were rejected by their families. You were turned away by our security apparatus. They were arrested. They were beaten. They were ostracized. And in some cases, people were killed for the simple act of living honestly. And they accepted those risks such that the next generation wouldn't have to endure that bullshit. And to enjoy the protection their courage created while publicly undermining it isn't just inconsistent.

1:07:49Kara Swisher:I would agree.

1:07:49Scott Galloway:It's a profound failure of gratitude and an integrity. What it says is at the end of the day, it says, I deserve these freedoms, but people like me don't.

1:07:59Kara Swisher:Right. Let me tell you, back in those days, it was very much. I saw Graham at gay bars. I did when I was young. He was with another congressman very frequently. And nobody said anything at the time. Like everyone knew who he was. There were a lot of people like that. It wasn't just him, especially in the Reagan administration. There were a bunch of gays who were doing anti-gay things. I was on the fence about outing people back then, back in the day. And the only time I would say when they were doing things that were specifically anti-gay, that was okay. Otherwise, kind of a live and let live kind of person.

1:08:34Kara Swisher:That said, by this year, in the year of our Lord, 2026, it was fucking ridiculous. And he was affiliating with people who were hurting gay people. And I would agree with you.

1:08:44Scott Galloway:He could have been a hero.

1:08:46Kara Swisher:He could have been a hero. And he was shamed of himself from what I can see. and I had heard about it, of course, as most gay people, there's sort of a whisper kind of thing that happens with gay people. But it was enough. It was absolutely fucking enough the way he was. I think more to the point was sort of this Remora Fish personality he had and people, you know, that he was close to John McCain and very close to the Bidens and then completely turned on them just to attach himself to a stronger man, which in this case was Trump. And that may have been a real conversion by him, but he was constantly pretzeling himself in really uncomfortable and I hate to say unnatural acts all the time.

1:09:28Kara Swisher:And I thought it was pretty gross. And I think he could have been a great one, especially the stuff he said about Trump initially was just like J.D. Vance was absolutely accurate. But he decided power was more important than principles.

1:09:43Scott Galloway:There's a lot of people who haven't acquitted themselves well in order to be close to the flame of power.

1:09:48Kara Swisher:Yeah, I get it.

1:09:49Scott Galloway:What I think this goes deeper, and that is I think a person's character should be measured by their willingness to bear the cost of their convictions. Otherwise they're just opinions. Yeah. And when you ask, as Senator Graham did, others to carry that burden while hiding behind the rights they won for you, you've outsourced courage and privatized the benefits. and history remembers the people who stood up when it was dangerous, not those who waited until it was safe and then tried to pull up the ladder behind them.

1:10:18Kara Swisher:Including straight people who went out. Like, I'll never have a Newsom because of what he did around marriage. I'm sorry. He took a stand that hurt him badly at that time. And so, yes, things cost things and he did not pay any prices and he was constantly angling for power. And the reason he was closeted is so he could be more powerful, right? So it all had to do with his desperate need for power. And it is a bad legacy for someone who you had a sense could have been greater, right? Anyway, you're right. I think there's nothing controversial about what you're saying.

1:10:51Scott Galloway:Look, I think his legacy is the following. The cruelest part about this is not just betraying yourself. You're betraying the people who absorbed the blows so you could live a safer life, which he did, and then paid the price. He collected the dividend and then voted to cut it off for the next generation. And he was cashing checks that other people wrote. And I think that's his legacy. And it's a terrible thing to say after he has been deceased. But I know so many people, including yourself, who paid a real cost. There was. Such a younger people could enjoy the rights. They so much enjoy. And not only that, the Republican Party's come a long way on this.

1:11:34Kara Swisher:I agree.

1:11:35Scott Galloway:And he was not only not an ally, he picked up the gun and fired it, you know, at his own troops.

1:11:45Kara Swisher:Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And enjoyed the, you know, the closet in the subbed. It was gross. I agree with you. That's a very good one. I am going to do a win, which is, you know, you're talking about going to the game. I was joking. I didn't want to go to the game because I was actually with my son, Louis, and we hiked all around San Francisco. And I have to tell you, I think it's, we hiked on this beautiful Sutro Open Reserve and just had the one most wonderful long hike all day long, is this idea of people and you're seeing it more and more getting out of the whole noise. IRL. IRL.

1:12:20Kara Swisher:And it's not like, we talked about politics. We didn't like, I don't want to talk about politics. It was, we talked about everything. And it was such a delight. I have to say, I kept saying to myself, I have to stop, like, being eternally online in a physical way. And I don't mean, because we talked about lots of issues. So I just feel like IRL is really a trend. I thought at first it was like a fake trend, but it really isn't. It's really something I think people are very much longing for in a way that's really quite, I think it's really significant going forward. Including going to the movie theater.

1:12:54Kara Swisher:I've had some really great times recently going to the movie theater. I went to see, by the way, I went to see the Moana Live, which didn't, you know, didn't do well. But I got to tell you, it was charming and totally enjoyable to go to. I've gone to so many movies lately and so have all my kids, which is really interesting. And I really encourage that, this IRL stuff in whatever form it takes. I think fail is the failure of what you were talking about is the is is this this the fact that people look at that picture of Mitch McConnell and think this is fake. that that's where we are. Nobody's telling the truth.

1:13:28Kara Swisher:They're creating, when they could fix it very easily, an act with ethics and honor. It goes to what you were saying about Lindsey Graham and everything else, is that we are now convinced they're lying as the beginning, not at the end. And that's, it was troubling. And everyone was like, oh, those memes were so mean. I was like, oh, come on, like, come on. That's the world now. And I don't mind those as much as the fact that nobody, really good people don't believe things now, right? There's always a group of people that are going to be conspiracy theorists and kind of nutty. But really normal people are like, is this real?

1:14:05Kara Swisher:Why can't they just do the right thing and like show up in a video, like show up, like come out physically, like speaking of IRL, just wheel the old man out and look at him. He shouldn't be in office, but why not do that? And all this fakery is such like, or pretending that Trump's not sleeping. He's sleeping, everybody. That's what he's doing. Like, I just, it creates this sort of disbelief in our system that it's really starting to get really irritating on many levels. Anyway, that's Mike. And I think that picture is sus. Sorry, I agree with you, Scott. It's very sus. It's a sus picture, even if it's partially real.

1:14:41Kara Swisher:We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, Scott, you talked a few weeks ago. much you admire Bill Maher did you know you got a shout out on his Club Random podcast you came up while he was interviewing actress Bo Derek of all things let's listen who was it it was on your show I think Galloway

1:15:06Scott Galloway:yes Scott Galloway I think he was

1:15:09Kara Swisher:talking about yeah the bullshit of

1:15:12Scott Galloway:of course

1:15:13Kara Swisher:of do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life no do what you're good at and then you'll make a good living and you can do what you want

1:15:23Scott Galloway:I did not know that. Seriously. I didn't know that she... Can we just pause that Bo Derek is thinking about me?

1:15:28Kara Swisher:Yeah, she is. But you saw Emily Ratajkowski got a big book deal.

1:15:32Scott Galloway:I saw that. And by the way, I heard an excerpt from her book on the New York Magazine website, and it's well-written.

1:15:40Kara Swisher:She's beautiful. Her first book was... I interviewed her because the book was well-written.

1:15:44Scott Galloway:Yeah, I was really... I was like, see, this woman knows how to write. Yeah, I know. There it is. Yeah.

1:15:49Kara Swisher:There it is. Anyway, Bo Derek, good to know. All right. That's all I have for you, Scott.

1:15:55Scott Galloway:Thank you for that.

1:15:56Kara Swisher:That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

1:16:02Scott Galloway:Today's show was produced by Lauren Amin, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Inert had engineered the episode. Thanks also to Dubros, Missavira, Dan Chalon, and Kate Gallagher. Nishat Kruwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, it is coming home. Jude Bellingham, Harry Kane, this is our tournament, Kara. Go England.