Best Friends of Pivot

24:35So just remember, this isn't like the best environment. The second was you have to work on getting people to share like bits of their story as opposed to like their pitch. Right. Because most people are trained to pitch themselves and you have to get people out of pitch mode. And I'll give you an example of how people do this very inadvertently. So a very common question when people are dating is, what's your family like? Are you guys close? Right. Sounds like a sounds like a good question, right? It's not a good question because, first of all, it's it puts people in this state of being judged.

25:11Not everyone identifies with the word family. That is a very privileged word. Not everybody has good associations with family. And you're putting someone on the defensive. But it seems like a good question. Here's the question I tell people to ask, and it will change the trajectory of your conversation. What was one great thing about your upbringing? Okay. That's good. Very different. Nothing I was beaten daily. There could be a bad industry. Very different. But think about it. Like, you know, Scott has talked a lot about his upbringing. And that I'm going to hear more of that. And everybody has had an upbringing, but not everyone has had a family in the way that we tend to think about family.

25:55That's really good. And you're going to get a great story. Yeah, you don't have to tell everything. Interesting. Someone, my son, it's not dating, but he's meeting different people. And one thing that he's doing is not telling people that his moms are lesbians, right? And there's one woman who he likes him who's super anti-gay. So he's like, oh, interesting. And like, I said, have you told her? And he's like, not yet, not yet. And then he moves on to tell me something wonderful about your upbringing. Anyway, this is so helpful. Lakshmi, we're going to have you back on again. Thank you so much.

26:30You can hear more from Lakshmi on this season of Land of the Giants. Thank you so much. This was delightful. Thank you so much. Since our chat, Lakshmi has started her own dating podcast called The Later Dater Today, which focuses on dating after the age of 45. And I'll be speaking with her about that on Prop G in the next couple of weeks. I find this stuff, I think this stuff is fascinating. It is. It is. It is. Anyway, Scott, we're going to take a quick break. We come back. Our conversation with MSNBC's Mehdi Hassan about the art of debate.

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28:08Kara, we're back with the best Pivot interviews of 2023, our best friends of Pivot. Who's up next? So Scott, one of the things people like about this show is how we handle our disagreements. And that's why it was interesting to talk to Mehdi Hassan, who until recently hosted his own show on MSNBC and Peacock. He had written a book about the art of arguing, and he joined us just as the debate over the origins of COVID-19 was reigniting. An article in the Wall Street Journal had just come out casting new light on the lab leak theory, a topic that remains divisive to this day. The conversation we had on that episode got straight to the point of our show, which is that disagreement can be civil and opinions can change.

28:48Let's listen. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

28:57Medhi Hassan is the author of Win Every Argument, The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. Welcome, Medhi. Good to see you. Thanks for having me, guys. So speaking of arguments, we were just talking about the debate over the lab leak theory. You hosted some conversations about COVID's origins. When the news came out, you tweeted, it's hard to have a good faith disagreement about a major issue if the issue itself has been hijacked by bad faith folks. Unpack that for us. We'd love your thoughts on this. Yeah, a lot of people got very upset. I haven't had a response to a tweet like that from kind of crazy right-wingers for a long time.

29:30I've been trolled on that for days. I got properly ratioed. People are very upset with that tweet. I think it's because they read it as some kind of admission of a conspiracy by the liberal media to stamp out this story, when in fact, the very opposite. I actually covered the lab leak story on my show back in June. I had to go back and check. June 2021, I hosted a debate between Alina Chan, who's one of the biggest lab leak promotants, and Angie Rasmussen, the virologist, who's a big critic of it. So we don't run away from it. But I have a longer memory than most people I would like to think. I think our media culture is dominated by people with very short-term memories.

30:01There's always a reset button. I hate to go along with that. And I haven't forgotten 2020. I haven't forgotten Donald Trump standing in front of crowds shouting, Kung Flu, Kung Flu. I haven't forgotten Peter Navarro saying the Chinese Communist Party created it in a lab and sent Chinese people to infect the rest of the world. I haven't forgotten Washington Times Daily Mail running biolab, bioengineer, bioweapon stuff in January, February of 2020. So there was a lot of nonsense around this stuff. It's always been plausible that it leaked out of a lab, but it was always a natural disease. No one ever claimed it was, no serious person ever claimed it was a bioweapon.

30:35And the problem was it was very, very quickly hijacked by the bioweapon conspiracy crowd and by the anti-China racist hawk crowd. That's undeniable. Go back, pull up the clippings, pull up the clips. I might do it on my show next week, in fact, because it frustrates me. People are acting like we should have all just sat down in March of 2020 and said, let's have a good faith, impartial reason debate about whether it came from the wet market or whether it came from the Institute of Virology. That was not what was happening. Donald Trump was president of the United States, was trying to deflect blame for crazy deaths here in America, talking about disinfectant, and began by praising Xi, his friend, but then decided to blame China and the China virus for everything else.

31:14So it's nonsense. And by the way, one last quick point. The story that's come out this week does not vindicate anyone. No, it's low confidence for everything. Not even just low confidence. No one in the story is saying it was related to a military program. Tucker Carlson went on air this week, this week, and said, and what did he say? He said it was engineered in a lab as part of a military biolab. The GOP House, the House GOP's position is that this was related to a Chinese biological weapons program. No, the intelligence specifically says we do not believe that. And by the way, only two out of the eight intelligence agencies that have looked at this say that it's lab leak.

31:49Four say it's zoonotic. It's from the wet market. And by the way, the two that say it's lab leak, one of them is the FBI. And I thought we don't trust the FBI anymore. Well, they don't. So there's two very viable ways this could have happened, right? And both should have been investigation. And probably all our agencies should have said, we don't know until we do know. So let's entertain both of them at the same time. But talk about this. What does this specific case tell us about the argument styles and the left and the right? Because this, you know, this tweet by you really did get a lot of attention.

32:19So, I mean, Twitter is not the greatest place to have arguments. I keep telling myself that, but then I keep doing it again and again. I'm sure you're in a similar boat. I was going to have a chapter in my new book about arguing on Twitter. And then I thought, well, no, maybe that's for a sequel. But look, I think what the COVID as a whole, the whole handling of the pandemic and why I actually think the right have won a lot of the messaging battles on vaccines, on masks, on lockdowns, on school closures, and now perhaps on lab leaks, is because A, the right wingers have a very clever tactic, which is to declare victory in the middle of the game when the game's not over and say we won and allow kind of both sides media to indulge.

32:56They did it on Mueller. I mean, the Mueller report. Oh, they misrepresented that before the findings were even out. And they've now left a legacy where everyone thinks the Mueller report showed no collusion or showed Trump did nothing wrong, which is not what the Mueller report shows. And I think similarly now on COVID, it's a very clever tactic to declare victory. And separately, the whole approach to pushing back against COVID mitigation measures was very cleverly framed by the right as freedom, liberty, standing up against oppression. People in America love that stuff. These are the values that appeal to Americans.

33:27And they very quickly realized that if you make something about identity and about values, you win. And liberals, leftists, progressives, members of the academic community, the scientific community, they think if we make it about the facts and the figures, just one more peer-reviewed paper, then we win. That is not how the human brain works. That's not how people, that's certainly not how Americans engage in debate or persuasion. So your book, Win Every Argument, The Art of Debating, Persuading, and public speaking. Do we want to win every argument? Isn't there a need for debate or conflict to take on a level of consideration and acknowledgement of other points?

34:05It strikes me that we're in a situation now where we don't want to win every argument. It's a great question. A lot of people have asked that question. So let me address it in a couple of ways. Number one, 100 % agree with you. You should not want to win every argument. I make it very clear in the dedication page on the front of the book that I do not win arguments with my wife and I don't want to win arguments with my wife. So I'm very clear about situations where you don't want to win every argument. But people have jumped on the title and said, win every argument. You shouldn't want to win every argument.

34:30I mean, I could have written a book called Drive Every Car. Doesn't mean I'm telling you to go out and drive every car. Literally, I'm saying, here's a set of skills that allows you to drive every car. You can choose when is the best moment to win that argument because some people, they don't have a choice, Scott. Some people need to win an argument. It might be a job interview. It might be something their job depends on. You might be a prosecutor in court where you have to convince this jury to stop this person you believe is a murderer from getting off. So the point of the book is to say, here is a skill set that you can learn that should help you win any argument you choose to win.

35:01Because the reason I wrote the book is because I hate when people say, well, you were just born this way. You came out of the womb doing this stuff. I'm not like that. No, I'm saying actually anyone can pick up these skills. They've been around since Aristotle. And just on your point about, you know, should you want to win every argument in the big stuff these days, I think people should want to win. For example, democracy. I believe that democracy is at stake in America right now. I believe there's an existential threat to our democracy, our free press, etc. Those are arguments you cannot shy away from.

35:28Those are arguments you cannot keep your head down on. And those are arguments that my side, I would argue the pro-democracy side, is in fear of losing because we're confronted by people who've degraded our public discourse. We're confronted by gaslighters and BS merchants who aren't interested in the rules of formal debate or facts and figures. And therefore, I would like to see people who believe in democracy and freedom be equipped with the rhetorical tools to win those very vital battles. So when you think about that, how do you have good faith disagreement? Because there doesn't seem to be any good faith disagreement.

35:58It's always a one-up kind of thing and a dunk. And obviously, I've gone way off Twitter. Scott's sort of gone off Twitter. You clearly haven't. I'm just using it as the example because it is a very small little world. Speaking of echo chambers, it's the echo is chamber there is. But what is a good faith? How do you have a good faith disagreement? And how do you decide when to engage and when to walk away? It's a great question. And I talk a lot about the phrase good faith in the book and about the need. And I genuinely believe in good faith disagreement because I believe that democracy cannot survive with that.

36:28It's the reason I wrote the book. It's the reason why I enjoy debating and arguing and value it so much. Because, you know, I quote the French essay of Joseph Joubert that it's better to debate an issue without settling it than to settle it without debating it. There's an intrinsic value to the process, to truth-seeking in that way. And I think you're right. It's really tricky. You know, people say, well, what is a bad faith argument? How do you define it? And, you know, it's like the Supreme Court definition of porn. You know it when you see it. You know, there's so many different ways to engage in a bad faith argument.

36:57People who shift the goalposts, people who make claims without any evidence whatsoever, people who only engage in abusive ad hominems. Those are people you should probably walk away from. I was going to write a chapter in the book on when to walk away from an argument. I didn't. maybe that's saved for a sequel because there are arguments, Cara, that I choose not to have to go back to Scott's earlier question. Like people say to me, would you have Marjorie Taylor Green on your show? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have an argument with Marjorie Taylor Green. It's pointless. She's a grifter. She's not interested in any facts or figures.

37:23She doesn't even believe most of what she's saying, probably. Why would I give her a platform, especially on live TV, to spew uninterrupted nonsense? So there are some arguments you should walk away from, but good faith arguments. I mean, I write a chapter in the book on listening, right? something we don't do in arguments and i'm a bad listener i say that openly in the book my wife laughed at me when she heard i was writing a chapter on listening um listening empathetic listening is a very important uh part of having a good faith argument because if you're just having a debate where you're waiting for your turn to speak then that's not a good face uh debate or argument but if you're actually critically listening to what the other person is saying if you're empathetically listening to what an audience is saying for example in a political context then actually everyone feels like they have a stake in the conversation and everyone feels like they're going somewhere.

38:06And I give the argument, I give the example in the book of 1992 Town Hall in Richmond, Virginia, where a questioner asks George Bush, senior Bill Clinton, and of course, ridiculously Ross Perot, what they, how the national debt has affected them. Bush isn't paying attention, looking at his watch, gives a nonsense answer about interest rates. Bill Clinton goes up to the woman and says, tell me how it's affected you. And that's the beginning of a great conversation, someone who's automatically persuaded by one person in front of them. Yeah. So you sent us a clip of an interview you did with John Bolton.

38:36Set us up for this, and what were you arguing about? So John Bolton has done a lot of interviews. John Bolton is a man who I don't like, but I respect him as a debater. He's a very clever guy. You can't question his intellect, whatever else you question about him. He's been debating since his Yale days. And he agreed to come on my show in 2020. I don't know why. I was surprised. And we wanted to do an interview with him, and we looked at what he was promoting his book. And I didn't want to ask him what everyone else was asking him. I like to ask questions that other people aren't asking. And I looked at his book, and he hadn't mentioned the fact that he He gave speeches, paid speeches for an Iranian opposition group called the MEK, who are nuts.

39:07They're a bunch of cultist misogynists. So I decided to press him on that angle. How much of your antipathy towards Iran is to do with geopolitics? How much of it is to do with the fact that you've had a long association with a group called the MEK, which was once a terrorist group banned by the State Department while you worked there? You don't mention it in your book. This is really about as low as it gets. The fact is that Hillary Clinton, perhaps someone you support, took the MEK off the U.S. list of terrorist organizations. How about that? I speak what I believe. Yeah, she took it off in 2012.

39:41You were speaking with them in 2010 when they were still a banned group. Yeah, look, you're simply wrong on your facts on this. No, you were there in Paris in 2010 speaking at the MEK rally when they were still a banned terrorist group according to the State Department. Nobody buys my opinion and you can ignore that if you want. I'm very comfortable I have never said anything other than what I believe and we are now sir 20 minutes into this interview Which you said was for 15. All right. That didn't seem good. Yes, maybe you can ask a question I don't and I struggle with this as someone Who's a podcaster interviewing people and there's a reason we let Kara lead the interviews and And when I hear that, I feel like you're purposely putting them on his heels to score points with your liberal viewership, that you aren't having a productive conversation, that you are so aggressive there that you yourself are reducing the likelihood of a productive conversation.

40:42So, obviously, I disagree with you on that. And I understand my wife is actually takes a similar view to Scott, that some people don't like such confrontations. And I think the American media has suffered because your point of view has dominated and we haven't had enough challenging conversations. And the reason why I have partly succeeded in a career here in the US, in people like Jonathan Swan did well with their Trump interviews, because people are quite frustrated that American interviewers have been so deferential to people in power for so long. That we engage in both sideism and don't really call people out.

41:13And not just that, but I'm just talking about the tone. And, you know, yeah, sometimes you do need a bit of, you can call it aggression, combativeness, belligerence, whatever it is. Someone like John Bolton who filibusters, who has talked over and bullied interviewers for years. And it took 20 years, 20 years from the Iraq war, whatever it was, 18 years at the time, for someone to ask him, as I did later in that interview, you know, does he have any qualms? Does it rest on his conscience that tens of thousands of people died in Iraq because of him? I think those are questions that need to be asked.

41:39And a lot of American interviews, sadly, are a little uncomfortable asking such questions. And I take your point about scoring points for liberal viewers. Maybe that's part of it. I'm not going to pretend otherwise that I want to get views. But I also think it's about holding people to account. I mean, I do what I do because I want to hold people to account. Otherwise, I'd go be an accountant. Do you think you're just as tough on people from your side of the aisle, liberals? And when you do that? Yeah, I try to be. And in fact, liberals get very upset because sometimes they expect a kind of softball interview.

42:06Jen Psaki is someone I've grilled before. She put the quote on the book saying that. Look, is it tonally the same? Not necessarily. But then, for example, Tony Blair. If Tony Blair was in front of me and someone I've never got to interview, oh, I would push him as aggressively on Iraq as I push John Bolton, regardless of the fact that he's a centre-left prime minister who I once voted for. So I think there might be tone differences. But no, certain issues, people need to be pressed. I try and be tough on everyone. Obviously, certain people, you know, Cara, the reality is, we live in an age right now where one group of politicians are particularly deceitful and offensive and bigoted.

42:45And that is reflected sometimes in the tone of my commentaries and interviews. That's a reality. The issue is, though, it doesn't. I try very hard to get as many people from all sides as possible, and not to be both sidesism, but more to be like, at some point, it degenerates into a way that's not illuminating to people in any way. And so you have to be very careful not to seem because one of the reasons I don't watch cable that much anymore is I'm like, it's this, I know exactly what's happening. Like, you know what I mean? It never illuminates. It's a lot of fire, but no illumination whatsoever.

43:16Well, that's not always the case. And I would say, watch my show and you've been on my show. And when you're on my show, it's certainly illuminating. So I wouldn't want people not to watch you when you appear on my show. But I would say this, look, to go back to Scott's point about, is it productive? I say context is everything. We have very, very productive interviews with experts and with interesting people such as yourself on my show. But then we do have the more lively, combative interview with people like John Bolton. What I would say to you, Scott, is let me turn it around. Let's say you were sitting with John Bolton talking about the MEK.

43:47What would you have asked that would have been illuminating that he would have engaged in good faith? I would have brought up the point and I would have said, what do you say to people who say it's hypocritical and that you're sort of bought and sold as evidenced by this and I would have let them respond. And I probably wouldn't. Look, you have a style and you have a show on MSNBC and I don't. So, you kind of win. But when I hear that tone, and again, it's hard because it's one clip, right? And my guess is we should look at the entire body of your work. But I find that that's easily going to, it sounds to me like that's going to digress into a food fight where the person doesn't trust you and it just thinks you're trying to embarrass them.

44:26So here's the thing, Scott, what I would say. Number one is, if you did that, he would be delighted because there's no follow-up to point out that he's lying to the viewers about when he spoke to the group. But just on the broader point. Well, I think you can say what you said. Well, that doesn't feel accurate. So it's a tone issue. That's great. But just on the wider point, Scott, that you'll make, I just want to address this really important point. I say this in the book. Sometimes you're not trying to persuade the other person. I'm not really interested in whether John Bolton agrees with me.

44:51He's not going to change his mind. He's John Bolton. I am interested in the audience seeing that people in power can be held to account for their lies. They can be held to account for what they've done. And I think that's what's been missing too much from our discourse. Sometimes you're not trying to convince the other person. You're trying to convince the third person. You say the liberal audience to point square. I'm saying the American public that needs to hear some sharp conversations. And perhaps sometimes my tone is off. I'm only human. But I do think the style is very important to be tough.

45:19I do think that's important. All right. Last question. Scott and I frequently argue that's our entire thing. I think we argue well, actually. One of the more harmless arguments is about whether my Chevy Bolt is sexy. I'd like you to tell us who's winning that argument. Is the Chevy Bolt sexy as a car? I think the Chevy Bolt is as sexy as the person driving the car. And that is how I would define it. Oh, nice. Oh, no. God. Let me phrase the question. Yes, you should reframe, I say in the book. Always reframe. Am I more likely to get a random blowjob in a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt? Your turn. This is what I have to do.

45:57He's got his head in his hands. Let's bring back John Bolton. I can't. You've literally thrown me off now. I wasn't seeing that coming. Look at him. He's flustered. He's speechless. I didn't see that coming. In all the media interviews I've done, I didn't get that question. Exactly. The flaccid penis joke always ends up there. Go ahead. What I would say to you, Scott, is, is that joke contributing to a productive discussion and illuminating our lives or not, Scott? There you go. So you know what the answer was? The right answer was no. No right answer involves Tesla is the answer is what I would say.

46:30There you go. Oh, very well done. Anyway, last question. What's the most important thing? Not winning every argument. What is the empathetic here at listening? I think is, I suspect as well. I actually think the more important than anything else I have a chapter on it is confidence building. Unless you have confidence, you can't do anything. You can't listen. You can't speak. You can't engage. You can't take a position. And we lack a lot of confidence in our societies. We defer to people who are overconfident. And I talk in the book about the need to build confidence because that's the stepping stone for everything else.

46:58Yeah, that's the explanation for Elon, for sure. Anyway, the book is Win Every Argument, The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. It's available now. Thank you so much, Matty. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Matty. Nice to meet you. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Matty was probably the only guest to successfully interrupt us multiple times, but he wasn't the first to end up with his head in his hands by the end of the interview. What great copy they give us, Kara. Yeah, yeah. Scott, our next conversation took place during Scott Free August, one of my favorite times of year, with our audience's favorite Scott substitute, George Hahn.

47:30It was about the theme of art and artificial intelligence. Earlier this year, an Instagram account called Republicans went viral for its AI images of prominent members of the GOP in drag. The account was a reaction to a series of anti-drag bills and general anti-LGBTQ legislation percolating around the country by Republican legislators. Using MidJourney AI and ChatGPT4, one couple created stunning images of Mike Pence in a feather boa, Lindsey Graham in blue eyeshadow, and more. So obviously, I just had to have these nice young men on. And even though George was co-hosting, we made sure you were there in spirit and in drag.

48:06Let's listen. I'd like to see an AI that makes Lindsey Graham look straight. Now that's technology. Okay, let's get to our friend of Pivot.

48:21Craig DeForest is a co-creator of Republicans, a parody Instagram account showcasing AI-generated photos of Republicans in drag, including Ted Cruz as Cancun Barbie, Mike Pence as Miss Womb Warden Supreme, and Marco Rubio as Sister Rosie Rubio of the Sassy Sacrament, and so many more. And it's so enjoyable to watch. It's been a real delight. Welcome, Craig, and thank you for your beautiful work. Thank you so much for having me. So talk about how the project got started. Because when I saw it, I was like, this is just what I love social media for. So tell us how it happened. It really got started actually in Palm Springs of all places.

49:00And we were watching the news, really, hearing what was going on. I think at that time it was really things in Tennessee happening around anti-drag legislation. Right. And I thought to myself and said to Steve and my husband, I would love to see these GOPers in drag. And he immediately said, Republicans. And the idea, he's a writer and his brain just works like that. And the idea came out of that. And I went online and looked, is anyone doing this? And couldn't find it anywhere. I was super surprised. Stephen suggested I use tools like Midjourney and ChatGPT and start looking into those. So I taught myself and the first post within 24 hours, really, from the idea to the post is when this all happened.

49:50And, you know, two weeks later, it was like 200K. So you didn't have any particular background in this technology. You've used zero background. I'm like international education, community engagement, higher ed, like tech, but like, no, I don't have any idea. I taught myself. Right. And so you, you know, as you said, we're in a tough time for the LGBTQ plus community, including with the introduction of these drag bands, as you noted, you called your work fantasy. But how do you use it as activism? Do you consider yourself an activist or how do you see it? I mean, it's obviously caused great delight and consternation, which is how you want it to work out.

50:27But what do you what is it doing from that? I do. I love that question because I have started to see myself as an activist and all of the people who are following along are taking action. So many of them already are activists. So in three days, we raised$21 ,000 for the ACLU of Montana Foundation. And that was a shock. I didn't know that we could do that. That happened in like the first month or two. we're trying to call out the hypocrisy of the GOP. So yeah, I want to keep calling them out. I think AI, there is a place for it in activism. George? First of all, so nice to meet you, Craig. And now to put a name and a face with this whole thing because I'm loving every single post.

51:16So I'm curious to know, do you run it through a thing? Like, do you describe, I want to see Lindsey Graham and do you talk about like what colors you'd like to see, the setting and how many like iterations before you get the right one and make sure they all have five fingers. And yeah, like what does it take? Yeah, what does it take to turn her into a drag queen? Yeah. Yes. And thanks for sharing, Jordi. You shared our page early on, which certainly helped us grow and get the word out. So I appreciate it. It's so good. I go on to MidJourney and I put in all of what you said. So it's unique original prompts.

51:52And I'm not inputting images. I'm saying, this is the person I would like to see. This is how they look. This is the color scheme. Maybe it's like 1990s inspired or Barbie inspired. And maybe they're feeling a certain way, like the Rudy Garland image that really set things off. Who has, by the way, appeared in drag in real life. I know. Some of these folks have, and that's the craziness, right? Right, right. Yeah. And one of the words in that is mental breakdown for the description and the prompt. Why? Why? Well, because Rudy Giuliani was like, he always looks like he's having a breakdown. He is a mental breakdown.

52:41Okay. And how do you decide which one to roll out next? Obviously, Lindsey Graham's an obvious one. Rudy Garland is an obvious one. Ted Cruz is... is a very attractive drag queen, I would have to say. Have you gotten any pushback from anybody? Not major, but it's funny you mentioned Ted Cruz, aka Crusella DeVille, because when we did the Ted Cruz post, he posted about it on Twitter. I don't know if you saw this. So the Houston Chronicle ran a piece on it. They did like an op-ed sort of thing and talked about the post. Ted Cruz, I guess, saw it. And that day he posted the images of himself as a drag queen and commented on it.

53:24He got roasted so hard. What did he say? I believe green is my color and not whatever you use. If he wanted to have fun with it, yeah, he could have. No, he said, I guess it's a slow day at the Chronicle. And then everyone just roasted him in the comments. It was amazing. So you've said you never do a portrait of former President Donald Trump. Why is that? Is it unattractive? What? He gets so much attention immediately when we started doing this and people were just, we want to see Trump. We want to see Trump. When are you doing Trump? Our immediate reaction with our conversations with each other was just like, this is not happening.

54:01We're done. We're done with Trump. And I know the world isn't done with him. He's still a huge figure and he could be our president again. And I just think he gets enough attention. He wears enough makeup. He wears more makeup than a drag queen. Yes. So he's already got it going on, I think. Right. The hair, certainly. You're good. So you're not going to make that, even though it'd probably be the most popular, presumably. No, but I like this choice. All right. Okay. I respect this, that you're not going to do him. And by the way, that would really probably make my eyes burn. Okay. Now, George and I are going to open a special image you've made just for Pidgett.

54:35Let me link to the image here. I'm so excited. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. That's fantastic. All right. Oh, good heavens. George, read the caption, George. Wearing my glasses, by the way, but go ahead. Wait a minute. George, why don't you describe the photo? Explain it for people. It is Scott on a tarmac with a PJ, a plane in the background. And he is wearing from the waist up. It's like it looks like he's wearing a gold lame catsuit. or maybe this is sequins, but it's gold catsuit, sunglasses like aviators, but like with gold rims and a skirt. There's a skirt feature over this gold lame catsuit and gloves, black gloves.

55:29And there's a little pink hair coming out from behind and cascading down the shoulders. Read the caption.

55:39Please welcome to the literal runway the Lady of London and Daddy of Ibiza, Anita Scott Free August. She's wearing heels higher than your ambitions as she boards her PJ to get the hell out of Wokistan. They call her the dog, but you won't see this diva chasing tails or bending over, unless it's to pick up a fallen eyelash or her capital gains. And the only thing thicker than her contour, that portfolio, Henny. Now, come on, that's good. Hashtag. You were really good. You got that. Check out all of our socials today to see that image of Scott for yourself on Instagram and threads. It's beautiful.

56:26It's really quite beautiful. I'm glad you love it. Scott-free August, I like. What would you turn me and George into? So I might put you in Palm Springs. Yeah. You might be standing next to a bike in a palm tree. So I might have like a palm tree theme, like you're on vacation, getting some sun. Any names come to mind? Mia Kia. Oh, my gosh. By the way, update, the Kia is fine. It's being fixed. We'll go ahead. Move along. Oh, good. Good. Got crushed by a tree. What about George? George is, George, there's so many directions you can go. Well, George is going to be in a park. You know, he has his good morning videos that he does on Instagram.

57:09So I think he's going to be in a New York park setting. I'm feeling like a navy blue sort of feel, like deep, you know, colors going on. And it's got to be a really, really big wig, like cascading over the top. Oh, a cascading wig. Very nice. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, none of this was possible like Kara and George nine months ago or whatever. When we first started this, we were like, we couldn't have done this six months ago. This is a whole new world that this opened up. Right. With all of the sort of contempt prior to investigation with regards to AI, you have sort of shown where it can create a job, as it were, because you guys have created a little job for yourselves.

57:58Not little, it's big and it's fantastic. You've got merch and you've got things like that. Is this going in a real monetizable direction for you? Well, great question. I mean, if Scott was here, I might ask him, Scott, like, how do I monetize this? But no, I mean, we're not making money right now. And the main goal is to, I would say more than that, is find ways to support causes and candidates. And being a sustainable thing is important and it's secondary. But right now, this is so new. And I want it to be a place where people can come to learn, get motivated, stay engaged. Like, I was so apathetic for a while because of just the political scene.

58:41When I started this, it jump-started something in me and reignited something. And my guess is that it's done that for some people too, who are following the page. What I'd like to be able to do is support candidates maybe on more of a local level. You know, like there are these national figures that are corrupt and doing all kinds of awful things, but we know a lot of change happens at the local level too. So what can we do for them? How can we raise funds for organizations like the ACLU? So in terms of money, like that's what I'm thinking right now. Yeah, I agree. I think one of the things is it's got sense of humor about it that I think is much more effective than just being angry or anything else is that you can feel your anger, but it's with whimsy.

59:26I think what's attracting people to this beside the humor is a big piece, but it's this intersection of all these things that are at the tip of our tongues and top of our minds right now. It's art, it's politics, it's drag, LGBTQ issues, it's artificial intelligence, and it's at the forefront of law. Like we're out here sort of in a gray area, which we're aware of. But I think that's what drew a lot of people to it. It's fascinating. Anyway, we love it. Thank you, Craig. And you can and must follow, you can't listen to us anymore if you don't, follow Republicans at Republicans on Instagram, but you can find it lots of places, but start there.

1:00:07And threads and threads. It's everywhere. And it's really fun and it will make you laugh and maybe think really hard about these terrible men who are doing terrible things to people who do not deserve it. Anyway, thank you so much, Craig. And we think you're wonderful. Thank you. Appreciate it. And if you want to see Anita Scott Free August, the Republicans AI version of Scott, she's still up on our Instagram and threads at pivot podcast official and pivot podcast on TikTok. So is our Annie Leibovitz picture of us. Nice. We're handsome. People love that. That's a great picture. I think we nailed it there.

1:00:41I think that is not only the content people need, it's what they deserve. They need it. They need it. Yeah. All right. We're going on a quick break. When we come back, we'll share with you the Friend of Pivot interview from our most popular episode of the year.

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1:02:23What's needed is an industry-wide push to increase the supply to meet growing demand. You can learn more about how Airbus is contributing to accelerating this journey at fly.airbus.com slash the flight path.

1:02:44Scott, we're back. Why don't you introduce this next clip. Kara, the Monday after Hamas invaded Israel, Esther Perel had already been booked to join us and promote her new podcast. However, the events of the previous weekend turned the recording with the world-famous psychotherapist into something very different and even more important than what we had planned. Here's our conversation with Esther. Speaking of which, about how we should be our better selves, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

1:03:15Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and an author. For over 30 years, she has been counseling people struggling with love, infidelity, grief, and loneliness. As the host of the Vox Media podcast, Where Should We Begin? Esther invites listeners into her office each week as she helps real couples work through conflict. Esther, we're glad to have you this week because a lot of people are struggling with what they're seeing in the news. So where does someone even start when it comes to dealing with what's happening in Israel on an emotional level? First of all, hello. Hello. Hi, Asher. To both of you.

1:03:48So in this moment, we are not working through anything. This is really in the immediate. People are in shock. People are emotionally numb. People are in deep, deep grief. People are frightened. There is terror. There is counterterror on all sides. But we're talking about the people who have just begun to understand that there was a massacre of epic proportions and basically an intergenerational trauma of epic proportion that is in the make as well. and the response when one is attacked and one is an animal as we are is that we try to counter attack and to go at it stronger harder and to defend ourselves and to not feel the helplessness the weakness and the terror that invades us and all of this is deeply animalistic and it's very important probably to not take many many moral stances on this especially for the people who are far away.

1:04:50There is so much hatred and it is very important that the people who are around these fighting factions not add more oil to the fire and not stew the hatred further. Hurt people hurt people. And to the point that it really risks of dehumanizing us. We feel we have been dehumanized. We respond with the same, you know, we think it's going to protect us. And on occasion, it does. And then sometimes it goes too far and it even destroys us. Sure, sure. So there can be a struggle between trying to stay informed, I think a lot of people want to be, and doom scrolling. How do you find that balance? If you've seen an image once, don't.

1:05:33If you read the story, don't go look for the image. Don't get trapped into the, it's a nine versus a 10. It's not sure that the image is really the right image and it really tells the story that it pretends to tell. It's a total mindfuck. there is it's a little bit like 9-11 we tell people titrate don't just watch it over and over again you will not sleep you literally will not sleep I am not sleeping and I didn't watch much I just talk to people and that's enough so what you do after that when you feel like the tide is rising inside of you and you just feel like you don't know what to do with all of this is the most important thing is to come together with others, to experience collective trauma collectively, to understand that this is changing something in the world, not just in the Middle East.

1:06:24And to read poetry, to talk about what's happened, to ask people where they are. I think allyship is extremely important in a moment like this. And all of those who miss the allyship of Black Lives Matter, we'll understand it even more so now, that when somebody writes to you just to say, I know you have an attachment to that place, or I know you know people there, or I know, you know, you were there recently, or something that says, I know, I see you, there's nothing else for me to say, and you answer, this means a lot. You thought of me. I exist in your collective awareness, and that is a lot.

1:07:02Well, let me ask you, how are you doing? I just drove up here two hours and spent one of those two hours on the phone with my friends and my family checking in. And, you know, you listen. You try not to judge. We all, you know, we can get into political discussions. We know what the story is. We are a bunch of informed people. But this is not the moment. It's like people don't have much rationality. So you hold, you contain, you make them feel like you want to hear it. You can tolerate it. you care and you create an envelope, an arms, you know, that just says, I'm holding you in your grief, in your rage.

1:07:45Please be careful. Please don't go and do irrational things. But, you know, nobody is deciding a lot of these things alone. What helps a lot, in general, what helps a lot is for people to get active, to do something, to not feel like you're sitting there helplessly, just taking it all in. Volunteer, send stuff, write to people, alert people, inform, read carefully and read stuff that doesn't just describe your side of where you stand. Just try at the best you can to stay open, to understand a little bit how the other side, whichever side you're on, because there is so much and social media is not helping with that.

1:08:25It's like if you've said one word in this favor or to think, to say that you're thinking about But this person, you get slashed. Shame on you for not thinking about that side. Shame on you. Shame on you. And every side that, you know, you cannot hold a moral. This is not the time to even keep a moral balance. You must take sides. And that side basically denies everything from the other side. There's very little nuance and very little complexity. So every time you see a place where people are able to not bite at each other, but just hold each other, we are a little closer to our humanity. It's so nice to see you, Esther.

1:09:06And congrats on all your success. Thank you. You're welcome. There's a crisis of loneliness. And when I think of your work, I think of advice you give around relationships in sort of the middle to the end part of the relationship. And what about on the front end? What advice would you give to one in seven men don't have a single friend, one in four can't name a best friend. A lot of women will say they're having a really difficult time finding a viable mate. A lot of men have just given up. And what advice would you have for a young man or woman who really feels a sense of loneliness, not only advice for them romantically, but how to address this crisis of loneliness?

1:09:48Modern loneliness masks itself as hyperconnectivity. And so people have easily a thousand virtual friends, but no one that they can ask to feed their cat. A lot of friends know friendship. Yeah. And that loneliness, that is really a kind of depletion of the social capital, is extremely powerful. It's more to men than to women, but it's quite general. It's very broad. It comes in part, and I'm going to say that first before I say what I recommend, because I think that we didn't understand what accompanies us on that on an everyday basis. I've been very interested in talking about modern loneliness as it connects to the rise of the other AI, artificial intimacy.

1:10:34So I am looking at how the rise of artificial intimacy is cultivating a social atrophy and with the social atrophy, a compending social and loneliness. It's these three steps. And I'll tell you one question that I keep asking that I had no idea was going to be so pertinent to what can people do, because it's a question that I've asked. I just came back from a lecture tour in Europe. And I said, were you, as you grew up, when you were children, did you play freely on the street? I asked it in London, in Israel, in Budapest, in Berlin. I mean, and the majority of people learned to play freely on the street.

1:11:17They learned social negotiation. They learned unscripted, unchoreographed, unmonitored interaction with people. They fought, they made rules, they made peace, they made friends, they broke up, they made friends again. And, you know, they developed social muscles. And the majority of these very same people's children do not play freely on the street. And I think that an adult needs to play freely on the street as well. For us as adults, that means talking to people in queue with you, talking to people on the subway, talking to people that you create any type of book club, movie club, this sports club, whatever interaction with.

1:11:55and you stay in the practice of experimentation, of doubt, you know, of the paradox of people. You need people very much. Marisa Franco talks about it. You need people, but the very people that you need are also the ones who can reject you. So people are a paradox. And we do not have the practice at this moment. Everything about predictive technologies is basically giving us a form of assisted living in which you get it all served in uncomplicated, lack of friction, no obstacles, and you no longer know how to deal with people because people are complex systems. Relationships, friendships are complex systems.

1:12:37They often demand that you hold two sides of an equation and not that you solve little problems with technical solutions. And that is intrinsic to the modern loneliness. And that's where the victory is, right? Figuring out those complexities. And that's why romantic comedies are two hours and not 20 minutes, right? That's what happiness is. Navigating those complexities and engaging in victory. Real friendship, real love, real sexual attraction, no? So when I was in London now, we had almost 4 ,000 people at the theater, loads of them, people who had come alone to the talk, which we asked them to stand up.

1:13:14And we asked the people who knew, who were sitting next to them to actually introduce themselves so that they wouldn't leave as the new kid in the class. Like church. They used to do that in church. Yes, yes, yes. And what I was talking about was about part of the podcast was to bring people into listening the way that you actually know what goes on in your neighbor's life. Today, your best friend can break up and you never saw it coming. And the podcast had in its constitution the desire to bring people to listen in on others so that they could see themselves and create these invisible connections by being a fly on the wall of another couple's session or another individual.

1:13:56So it's interesting you say that. I just was reading this story about a guy who was 102 and he said the reason is he introduces himself to everyone every day. Like, you know, and he's quite good shape. It's, you know, they love those 102 year old people stories. But he kept saying, I just say hello. I make new friends all the time, which was interesting. And it was interesting because it was very analog, obviously. It was physical face-to-face where you're up near people to talk to people. I noticed my son, my oldest son, always says, how is your day going to people? And I've taken it from him because I think it's a great thing because people just, this shock when I say that to people is fascinating because no one ever asked them how their day is, right?

1:14:34And I was, I saw him do it and I thought, huh. And you could see the response and I started to do it, which I think is, because again, whether it's someone, you know, you're going through TSA or whatever, you're getting, buying something at the store and people you don't know. And it was really interesting. And one of the things though, is that people do interact again. They're always looking at their phones. They're online. And I think this situation in Israel is made even worse because of that, right? There's nowhere to grieve that you can't have a discussion about it. And so everyone's interacting there and not with each other because you certainly wouldn't have the same, you know, biting that you talked about in person.

1:15:11You just don't. Some people might, certainly. But most people don't have that biting when they're in a physical situation. Because I see you. Because I see your eyes. That means I have an entrance into your soul. When I am writing on social, I do not have to see the consequences of my words. I can slash you. I can hype you. I can go in every direction. But fundamentally, I am only experiencing a partial connection. Now, some of these connections are very powerful, but I think you use the social platforms to say tonight we are meeting at the house of so-and-so. Everybody bring some food. Let's sit and think.

1:15:53Talk together. Grieve together. Sing together. Read poetry together. Make dark jokes together. Whatever it is. But be not alone with this so that we actually will sleep better. Physically, we will sleep better than if we just enter into a rumination. The platforms are useful, but they are useful in order for us to get off them. You know, I asked another question on this tour that really spoke to the loneliness and the question you just asked. How often do you find yourselves working the whole day on your laptop? Then you can't wait to close the screen. Then you go home, but you're too tired, and all you do is watch TV.

1:16:29Then while you watch TV, you're also scrolling on your phone. Then while you're scrolling on your phone, you lift your head, and you see that the people in the room are doing the exact same thing. This is modern loneliness. This is artificial intimacy. I am there, but I am not present. And then I talk to you about something that really matters to me, and your answer goes, uh-huh, uh-huh. And you know that the person is kind of listening, but not really. Unable to listen anymore or we're not good at it. That's all of that is modern loneliness. It's different from the I'm alone in my room and I don't have, it's actually I'm talking.

1:17:03But in the experience of talking, we experience what used to be part of the experiment of the still face. You're a hundred. Yeah, I know. The mother that doesn't respond. So there's being in the presence of strangers. There's engaging with strangers verbally. have you thought anything about, I don't know what the right term is, non-sexual touch or affection as a means of making you feel closer to people? The reason I bring this up, I'm trying to be more affectionate with my male friends, and I think it's very rewarding and very difficult. And I've been thinking a lot about male affection. Have you thought about, and its role it plays in trying to be less introverted and express love and cement friendships and just feel better about yourself.

1:17:49I've been reading this article saying it's very healthy for you. Any thoughts on non-sexual affection? Can I bring, Esther, let me give you some context. Scott was recently at lunch where an old lady came touching his arm, who turns out to be an incredibly famous podcaster and cook, Scott. She's very famous, just so you know. Really? She's very effective. She's lovely. Yes, very. What's her name? Ruthie? What's her last name? Ruthie. Someone sent me a link. I'm going to send it to you. She owns the River Cafe. Just Esther, I had lunch. This woman invited me to lunch. I had no idea who she was.

1:18:17And 20 minutes into the lunch, she started holding my hand. And it absolutely like stilled me. And at first it was uncomfortable. And then by the end of the lunch, I thought, this is the nicest thing that's happened to me all week. You know who used to do this? My father. My father would talk to you and he would hold your arm or he would put his hand, you know, he had this, anybody, he just, you know, I want to tell you something. And he would just, And I think when I go to men's groups, when I attend weekends of men's groups, there is a tremendous amount of affection, of touch and nurturing, physical nurturing.

1:18:55Because we can live without sex, but we can't live without touch. And that we become irritable, we become angry, we become depressed. And so I think there is a cultural factor about male touch in the United States among white men in particular. Other cultures are much more permissive in the physical communication between men, period. In fact, often very homophobic cultures have a lot of physical touch between men. Middle Eastern cultures are very affectionate with males, male to male. India. So here it usually gets ritualized through sports. You know, they're code languages that allow you to touch without it having to be called touch.

1:19:44But as a whole, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that one of the ways I address it because I'm a family therapist is to tell the mothers and the fathers, don't stop touching your boys. By the age of three, we touch our boys significantly less than our girls, than our daughters. I would agree. That is so important. My sons sit on my lap all the time. I'm like, they crush me, of course, but it's interesting. And one of the things that I just was thinking about when I come home, both my smaller kids hug my leg. And I don't know, it's just the most lovely, you know what I mean? Like, and of course, they're so easy to it.

1:20:21And I'm wondering when they unlearn it, right? Because they're so grabby, touchy, you know, they touch you all the time, kick you and stuff like that. There's a moment where kids unlearn it. so neobi way talks about it as second grade she's actually going to be at the conference i'm at and she talks about how the intimacy of boys the physicality of boys the the erotization of the physicality that boys then get involved in um and to call it homoerotic rather than simply to call it you know love and friendship you know is rather than um she talks about it as second grade By that time, the boy comes back from school and something fundamental changes in the way not only he touches other kids, but also speaks about his internal life, begins to adhere to what is now often called the male code of stoicism, fearlessness, competitive, that whole thing.

1:21:17But I think that parents collude in it. The school, you know, the child doesn't grow by itself. It grows in a context filled with spoken and unspoken messages. Yeah, yeah. I have one final question. Your parents actually met during a time of grief. They were both Holocaust survivors and your sole survivors of their respective families. I'm just wondering how that affected you. Speaking of parents, your father touched you a lot. He was still open to love, right? Which is an indication of that. What was the lesson you learned from them? Wow. There are many lessons, you know. And of course, I think about it a lot now in light of what is happening.

1:21:58But I think one of the very important things that I did learn is not to be ravaged by hatred. not to think that, and to actually embrace life. They survived and they were going to make the best of it. They were very erotic in that sense. They cultivated aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, and, you know, curiosity. They talked to people. And in a way, they managed to separate the person from the group that the person was a part of. I think, you know, my father was an illiterate man who had gone three years to school, but he was a true humanist. My mother too, but my dad, you know, basically had a way of just engaging with anyone he would meet on the street at the gas station, you name it, and start to talk.

1:22:49I think he understood long before, and he told me that always, don't get fooled by money, don't get fooled by education. The only criteria is decency. Who respects you and treats you with dignity and decency? And he learned in the concentration comes to distinguish between those who still had an inkling of humanity and those who were purely sadistic and psychopaths. And in that sense, he basically said, look at the person, give them an opportunity and don't judge. It's so easy to judge. Don't think that because they are from your tribe, they are definitely better or because they are from the other tribe, they are by definition evil.

1:23:32It's a lot more subtle and a lot more careful and judicious. And I think that I carry that and I really attribute that to him and to them. I'm just curious for you personally, Esther, what is your North Star here? What is your why? You're doing, you know, your reach is expanding. If you try to distill it down to a box you're trying to check? What are you trying to accomplish with your different media channels? So, you know, my motto is often to say the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life. Relationships, as I see them, are undergoing massive upheaval. And we don't have the skills.

1:24:21We are really atrophied. And the pandemic only added to that. and I will do anything I can via Where Should We Begin, which now has 40 episodes a year versus 15, the subscription on Apple, the live events we're going on tour now in the U.S. to a number of different cities to help people gain confidence about their relationships, learn to connect, not just know that it's important, but know how to do it, reclaim the imagination, the poetry, and the skills to do so in all stages of the relationships. I think that I'm identified often with romantic love because that's what I wrote about first. But I think that we should be careful not to put romantic love on a pedestal at the expense of many other very important relationships, friendship being one of them, mentorship, creative partnership, like the two of you what you do, that is a very strong bond too.

1:25:22And so all types of relationships at home and at work, if I can be one voice that contributes to helping people manage those better because they can cause tremendous grief, but they can also give us tremendous bliss. And I would like to be at the heart of that. You know, for a long time, dealing with relationships was fluff. It was considered feminine and feminine skills, especially in the workforce. And feminine usually means that you can idealize it in principle and then disregard it in reality. And then suddenly, because of technology, because of the social skills having become suddenly so important again, it's kind of the last thing that distinguishes for the moment from the machines, there is a real need and hunger in every sphere of society to address the subject of relationship.

1:26:16Sometimes it's called mental health, but what is mental health? That doesn't include relational health. That doesn't include physical, sexual, and emotional health. They all go together, for God's sakes. So I speak through relational health, but I'm a clinician. I'm a practicing clinician, and I'm basically talking about mental health in a way that is accessible without losing the complexity. Well, you're fantastic, and you're the perfect person to have on today. when everyone is reeling. Yeah. And I just can't quit, Scott. That's the way it goes. No, but Esther, I want to say you've helped me, and I find that the wellness industry is mislabeled.

1:26:51A candle in a meditation app isn't going to make you well. It's relationships, and that's what you speak to. I think you should rebrand yourself as the wellness industry. Yes, you are the wellness. You can also use candles in meditation apps. Those are nice, too. She's always correcting me, Esther. I'm just saying. It's true. There's nothing wrong with candles. Why would you not like candles? Passive aggressive. Candles are so—I have a candle right now. You know, when I see the two of you, I'm dying. Kara, Kara, love me, don't judge me, says Esther Perel. Tell her to love me, not judge me, Esther.

1:27:19Oh, I'm going to judge you. I'm judging hard. Esther, do you know I dated Patty Stones? She does not. We're not getting into it. Don't, don't, don't. Don't ask what that is, Esther. It's a fantasy, and it's starting to become stalking, actually, at this point. Fantasies are important. Anyway, you can hear Esther every week on the Vox Media podcast, Where Should We Begin? We love her. She's one of our best friends of Pivot. but I'm going to make you best friend of Pivot. And we really appreciate your - Thanks, Esther. Everything you do. It's always a pleasure to be with you both. I'm dying to delve in and to do a little couples work, but I will resist.

1:27:53We can have a session. We'll do that. We're bringing you back. That's the seventh ring of hell you don't want to go into. We will bring you back, and you will understand the hell I go through every single week. No, I know. I love Scott. I love Scott. So we were going to bring you back for that. You're going to do couples therapy with us. We'll do your show if you'd like. That I want to talk about with you. No, I am going to invite you actually at one point to have a conversation with me because I think that, you know, it looks seamless when one sees you. And one doesn't know how much relationality goes into creating what the two of you do.

1:28:28And I think that it would be so interesting for people. Here is this man and this woman. They have their lives. They have their partners, kids, et cetera. They have their philosophies. And they don't try to harmonize all the time. They show the tension, they show the differences, and they at the same time show how much they like each other. I mean, fundamentally, that is still the thing on top. You can tolerate a lot of differences when you like the other person. So I want to have a chat with you on that. We will do it. We will do it. It is actually this heart of the show, I think. It'll be a quick episode.

1:29:03I'm in it for the money. It will not. This is why people listen to us because they like it. People say that. That's the only thing people ever say to me. I like listening to the two of you disagree. Anyway, Esther, enough about us. We will come on your show. We would love that because we need some shrinking, especially Scott. Shrinkage is an important issue with him. All right, Esther, thank you so much. And we'll have you back soon. My pleasure. See you soon. Scott, I love how she talks about the rise of the other AI, artificial intimacy, and how for all the friends you might have on social media, you still need to have someone you can ask to feed your cat.

1:29:36This interview really ended up being about so much love, friendship, mental health, and real life connection. That's something we can all use more of in the near. And I think we did very, we enjoyed listening to it. It's what we needed at the moment, I think. It calmed us down quite a bit. All right, Scott, that's the show. Please read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Milt Saverio, and Gaddy McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

1:30:05We'll be back soon for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And thanks to all our friends of Pivot.

1:30:35for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more, all in one place, so that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group, Column N.A., and Evolve Bank & Trust members FDIC.

1:30:58This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's Chief Fixed Income Strategist. And I'm Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy and how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help. So download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.