Code Drama, WGA Revisited, and The Taylor Swift Effect

25:30It defines misinformation. And it has just gotten worse. It is not a fun product. It is not. It's a really vexing product. It's not light. It's become the sewage system of a sewer. It's just become awful. And I really feel for her. I think she's probably this very talented executive who's lifted up. This is her big moment. And she's just got to be like, what the fuck have I done? I think she's a believer in Elon. I do. I do. I don't know about that. But I think she is a fine executive. And again, she doesn't think it's a compliment, but it is, Linda. Well, maybe at some point she'll be a CEO. Maybe she'll actually be a CEO.

26:10Well, I wish she would stand up on her own and say what she thinks. I think I wish she would stand up in certain cases, you know, but it's always taking his side. And all I can say is I've heard from a lot of current and former Twitter people who were thankful for that Yoel interview. It was dignified and thought Julia did a good job and that their boss should be able to handle the heat. And, you know, they'll try to make it about me or anybody else except themselves. And the problem is they weren't prepared. And there's some vexing questions about the site. So learn to answer them. That's all I have to say.

26:51And we're not, you know, if you need a friend and journalists aren't nice to you, as I said on Twitter, get yourself a dog. We're going to take a quick break when we come back, speaking of people who are vexed. talk about the writer's strike and whether we did or didn't call it.

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28:52Okay, Scott, we're back. I also at Code, in a much more enjoyable interview, interviewed John Lovett. We talked a lot about Crooked Media. And we talked a lot about podcasting, et cetera, et cetera. But he made a very funny joke, which was, did a union kill Scott's dog? It was really funny. Because literally all the writers are mad at you because even you said you, we said we called it, which we did. We were talking about the timing people. They were saying they got an amazing job and that you were wrong, wrong, wrong. And how dare you for being wrong? And they got really mad at you. And then I was dragged into it.

29:29Although I didn't agree with you on everything, I thought. But anyway, I did agree that tech is the enemy. So talk shows are getting ready for returns following the W's board approval of a contract agreement with the studios. Scripted shows are still on hold given the actors strike. There's some good news on that front. SAG-AFTRA and the studios are set to resume negotiations on Monday. It looks like this is going to wind down, as we did say and called it. the writers appear to be pretty happy about how things shook out. The WGA negotiating committee called the deal exceptional. One thing, again, as I said, they're not happy about is our commentary on the strike.

29:58And by the way, we invited WGA people to this show. Just so you know, writers say, why not talk to writers? We invited them. They said they did not get back to us. We'll read a tweet instead. A writer named Dave Metzger tweeted, both of them said loudly and repeatedly that we should take whatever we're given and be grateful for it. The strikes would end in disaster for us. They refused to talk to a single writer on the air and they're absolutely wrong over and over again on the issue. We did not refuse. It's ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about. So you were spot on with a prediction when the strike would end.

30:27You've also been a strong critic of the strike and unions. You didn't think that writers had leverage. You thought it was a wrong moment in this fight. Something else they took issue with was your comparison to the British coal miners' strike. You said in May in No More Cimo Mouse, which is your newsletter, I believe that the Writers Guild of America, like the UK's National Union of Mineworkers back in the 80s, has incorrectly assessed the situation. We'll exit this strike severely impaired. You also said this on our show. Dan Hamamura tweeted this passage with a comment. Look, you got to hand it to Scott.

31:00He's consistently wrong since the beginning. He said the other day that writers are framing this as a monumental victory, no matter what the terms were. We also got this email from a listener named Zach that I'll read. We got a lot of emails. emails. I'm a huge fan of the show and I'm finding myself really perplexed by Scott's stance on the conclusion that WGA strike is some final nail in the coffin of American unions. The WGA took a bold position, held their membership together, and brought the studios to the table at the moment of their peak negotiating power and achieved a deal that is an unmitigated success across every issue that was on their docket.

31:30I think Scott's broader comments about union efficacy in the United States over recent years have been right on the money, but it's hard to look at this example of very public and very effectively executed strike and not think this is a big win for organized labor. I wouldn't be surprised if it inspires other collective action in our country over the coming years. I thought that's a really nice letter, by the way. That's a very fair letter from Zach. So why don't you respond? Why don't you respond? Because I certainly love unions compared to you. Although I do think that you were making some excellent points about leverage and I thought tech was the problem.

32:01But go ahead. Well, okay. Let me just say I love labor. I just think the construct representing 11 % of labor is not doing an effective job for all 100%. First off, let me acknowledge, I said it would break the backs of the union, the Riders Union, similar to the coal miners. I was wrong. The Riders Union is going to be intact. I think they did get some, I don't know, substantive concessions. But I don't, quite frankly, I think there's some liberal media bias here calling this thing. They call it exceptional. The media takes the bait and says substantial, you know, substantial victory. And I've read through this agreement.

32:44So let's just talk about it. They're getting, they garnered an increase of 5%, minimum increases of compensation, 5%. Then 4 % at the three-year deal, and then 3.5%. So that's 12.5%. Now you could discount it back because they're not getting the other four and the other three and a half to the years two and three. But let's just call it 12 and a half. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt. If it's a three-year deal and they forced everyone to make zero for five months, they got to get 14 % just to get back to even water. But let's say, well, Scott, that's not fair because those increases will help them negotiate a new deal in three years.

33:21All right. Since their last deal, inflation is up 10%. I think any economist is going to look at this deal and go, hey, writers, not any of your fault, but as a function of the economy and the fact there's too many of you, you are now making less money on a real wage level after this deal than you were when you struck the last deal three years ago. The UAW has been offered 20 % and they've rejected it. Why? Because the auto industry is strong and the dynamics of the streaming and the media market are weak. And they're calling a 5 % increase in wages exceptional. There are some really wonderful things they got.

33:57The best in my view is they got minimum riders and rooms. Let me tell you what a studio person told me. They said, but Kara is also a maximum now. Now it's in print that it's a maximum. I saw that too. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here. It's a really important thing because the way I see this is basically they have forced the studios to invest in the future and in an apprenticeship program. Because what it says is we need more junior people in the room to learn such that someday they can make. Which we support. And that's a great idea here. There are AI consolidations. There are things like AI can't write or rewrite literary material.

34:32The AI-generated material will not be considered source material under the MBA. When you read the agreement around AI, first off, it's a total nothing burger. And it shows that both parties don't understand AI. No studio exec is going to say, write a rom-com in the voice of Nora Ephron. What AI is being used is the writers will use AI. And as someone who's all over AI and writes a lot and thinks of themselves as a creator, AI comes back with really vanilla generic shit. And also, even if the studio wanted to use AI, it's impossible to figure out what is right now AI generated and what isn't. And the lesson I would say to writers and every creator is that AI is not going to take your job.

35:14AI is not going to take a writer's job. A writer who understands and can leverage AI is going to take your job. They got an increase in foreign residuals. It is so complicated. I can't understand if it's good or bad. The directors got that too, right? They do get a, but that's more money. They're getting an additional half a point and maybe an additional point contribution to their pensions. That's good. But they've also tried to run and say that they get a 50 % increase in compensation if 20 % of the user base of the subscribers watch a show, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that 20 % of subscribers, that's like five shows a year.

35:57And those people don't need any help. The people who wrote Succession, Game of Thrones, The Last of Us, and Stranger Things, which I bet are, and maybe Squid Games, which I bet are the only five shows. I mean, what is even the denominator for Apple or Amazon Prime? I bet there are literally a handful of shows. So the way I look at this, honestly, trying to be honest about it, is they got back to kind of even water from what riders were making. Inflation's up 10 % in the last three years. And they're bragging that they got 5%. And then, to be fair, they're going to get another 12.5%. They got some other goodies on residuals.

36:33But most of this, when you read it, they said, okay, make this press release sound more bulky and more impressive than it is. And here's, I just want to move to what they should do. And I think there's a big opportunity here. I think this is a really interesting moment. And I want to not, I was wrong. I thought the union was going to go away and they were going to get less than this. They got more. Congratulations. I would argue riders are now, here and now, being paid less on an inflation-adjusted basis than they were three years ago. But also, we all have to deal with inflation. So maybe that's not a fair apples-to-apples comparison.

37:09Ford and GM have offered the UAW 20 % and they've rejected it. And the rider's strike, the rider's union is claiming that a 5 % increase is exceptional because it's a different dynamic. It's a different dynamic in the industry. And this is the moment and this is the opportunity. We need to start something called the International Sisterhood of Creators. And we go to every content company in the world, from Axel Springer to Time Warner to Nikkei to Naspers to Le Monde, all of them and say, we're forming a consortium. you're going to pay for our lobbying and our legal fees, which will be$100 million.

37:42If you're Vox, your share of that is$80 ,000. If you're Time Warner, it's$3 million. And we are going to go create through lobbying and through lawsuits and through unanimity of participation, an additional revenue stream. Because this is the key around negotiation as it relates to labor. One, you need leverage. And then two, you got to have to go after the biggest pile of money. They didn't have a lot of leverage here and they weren't going after the biggest pile of money. They were going after the smallest, a group of an industry sector that is in decline. And they say to Penguin Portfolio, Random House, they say to every author, they say to every content maker, every TV producer, you are now part of this consortium and we are going to Alphabet, we are going to Meta, we are going to Microsoft, and we're saying our AI has sensed that there is now a database published by a great article in The Atlantic showing what books have been crawled by AI.

38:36Guess what? Two of my books have been crawled by AI. And when I type, write a chapter on raising young men in the voice of Scott Galloway, it comes - This was in The Atlantic. Explain to people where that's from. I don't know how it's name. A gentleman wrote an article in The Atlantic and in that article is a database. You can type in your name and it shows what books have been crawled by generative AI that you have written. And I have my books, The Four and The Algebra of Happiness, have been crawled by generative AI. And when I type in, write a chapter on whatever it is, Raising Young Men and the Voice of Scott Galloway, it comes back with something remarkably similar to something I would have written.

39:14But no one's paying Penguin Portfolio Random House. So we create this federation, this consortium, whatever you want to call it. We ask Barry Diller to come out of retirement and head it. And then he goes to these guys with all the money who have increased their market capitalization by$4 trillion in the last two and a half years. And we go to them and say, okay, we have figured out that a third of your content, 10 % of your content of the best content that you have is being informed by our IP, which we have, and I love your word, provenance. And we are going to get lobbyists and lawyers, and we are first going to legally establish that you cannot use it without our permission.

39:54And then this consortium is going to license it to one of those players. And one of those players could pay$100 billion or more over four years for the increase in market capitalization they would recognize if all of a sudden, Bard or Claude had access and could crawl the world's greatest creator content. We are fucking going after pennies, bitch. Let's go after the Benjamins. Labor, do you want money? Or do you want to put out press releases that you've got in an exceptional deal that takes you almost back to where inflation is. Let's get our heads out of our asses. There's a ton of people creating creative content.

40:34Let's go where the money is. This is our moment. Yeah, I would agree. I think tech is, as I've said over and over again. Notice how quiet they've been? Yeah. Notice how quiet. I know. Let's hope they don't notice. Notice what we're doing. While they're angry at Bob Iger, we're over here. Or Scott Galloway. Open AI is raising money at a$95 billion market cap. And guess what? They're crawling all your shit. They're crawling up everyone's ass. This is the way, this is what they miss. The heyday, the golden age was when you did Seinfeld and then it got new use and new people started creating that IP and you got a residual.

41:11Well, the new golden goose of residuals is your content being crawled by generative AI. That is the next residuals. Let's go get that shit. Yes, that's correct. For all creators. And they do say they want to pay you. They've been making the sounds of, of course we want to pay you. But it reminds me so much of early Google, where I'm telling you, they grabbed books when they wanted. They grabbed TV shows and closed captioning when they wanted it. These people do not have respect for your data. They don't. But let's look at the dynamics. If you go to the Canadian Broadcast Association and you go to the BBC and say, we want you to be a part of this consortium.

41:51We're going to ask for a little bit of money for the lobbying and the legal. And we have Barry Diller heading it up. And they say, and by the way, it's nothing but upside for you. Nothing but upside. And we're going to create an entirely new revenue stream. What do you think if we showed real unanimity and leverage here that one of these generative AI players would pay to be able to crawl? And if we could establish you can't, every piece of premium content out there from every media company in the world. Because here's the thing. None of them are going to be differentiated on technology or be able to maintain differentiation because they will use their own generative AI to reverse engineer every other technical innovation across every other AI, and they will all be at exact parity.

42:29So what is the point of differentiation and leverage? The content they get to crawl. So let's sequester it all under one umbrella and then license it to the highest bidder. 5%, 5 %? Yeah. We're going after pennies. Scott, did a union kill your dog? I just need to know. The dog is safe. The dog is safe. That was the best joke. See, I love John because he has issues with you and he gives a good joke. I love John. I love John. And then he talked about it in a very – there's a lot of really – Yeah, and also that we're hiding. I went on Billy – any union person that wants to invite me on a podcast, I went on Billy Ray's podcast.

43:09I've been a member of the AFL-CIO. I was a member of a union when I was a box boy. Here's the thing. I just want them to do more money for the 89%, do better for the 89 % that aren't represented by unions. I mean, no one wants to do the real math here. They made zero for five months. They made zero for five months, and they're excited about getting a 5 % payment? Several people told me that didn't matter. Tell Scott that doesn't matter. And I was like, I'm not going to do that. They didn't have to pay rent? Yeah, they were like, because, I don't know. This was like, I think it does. Like, you didn't work for this long.

43:42I think most people, you know, here's the thing. When you win something that's just, and I think some people think it's not a home run. It's just not. It's a second base conservatively, third base if you really want to push it. But you have to say you won. This is a hand job from your cousin at Thanksgiving. Okay. Oh, my God. And they're not going to like that one either, Scott Galloway. And by the way, what happened to the vast majority of workers at all of these shows that couldn't make any money or the$3 billion that the California economy lost? Who's paying them back? Do they get an extra 5 %?

44:21Yeah, I think that's a fair point. The real thing is, Tech, is your problem, which is we're trying to warn you. But, you know, you can be mad at us. Calling Barry Diller and all creators. Yes. Right? Let's go get some real money here. Right, which he's doing. By the way, he doesn't complain at all. He just does it. Like, that's why I like dealing with him. The point is that all creators, anyone who writes the jingle for a podcast is the gaffer, the light gal, the sound gal. All of us. All of us. Writing books, doing podcasts. We are painting the mother of all Chinese wall fences for big tech right now.

45:00They are making trillions. And we're celebrating 5%. Yeah. I would agree with you, Scott. This and this. I agree. I think people should really pay attention to tech. We all do think that. And, Evie, before we go on a break, I'd like to thank Twitter user, at Giebs, who said, pivot, quote, sounds like one of the worst podcasts ever created. Thank you, Giebs. We appreciate that. He doesn't like the name? He doesn't like the name or doesn't like us? No, they never listen to it. That's the problem. A lot of those commenters on Twitter just literally don't listen to us because it's much more. Get off Twitter.

45:32Yeah, get off Twitter. That's our feeling. Sell your Tesla. Get off Twitter. Yeah, you can keep your Tesla. Hang out with your great thing. Boom. Happy. There you go. Happy. Okay. And have old ladies touch your hand. Ruthie. Ruthie. You made him feel better. I'm not going to be touching your hand at any time soon. You would love this woman. I'm sure I would. You would love this woman. It's going to turn out to be like a really famous author, a food guru. I know that. She's a force. She's a force. I mean, literally you would love this woman. The two of you. That would be like sodium and chloride and nitro and glycerin.

46:05She is. All right. I'm going to meet her. and we're going to pat each other's hands. Okay. All right. I'm glad you went. Say yes to these things, Scott Galloway. I need to. I need to say yes. Say yes. I need to say yes. Yes. Yes. That's how I met Amanda Katz. I said yes. You know, it was a hard no for me. Code. They're like, do you want to come? Nope. I'm not going to Code. Nope. That was such a hard no. I know, but you know what you're going to do for me? When the book comes out, we've been invited to do a live pivot in San Francisco and you're doing it for Kara Swisher. You can stay at my house anytime, Scott.

46:34Seriously. Every time you're in San Francisco, it's a beautiful house. Seriously. I will bring you grilled cheese and tomato soup, and I will pat your hand. Anyway, go ahead. This is a total stereotype. I imagine literally a lesbian palace. I imagine Tracy Chapman playing guitar in the living room and Subarus everywhere. Is that wrong? Is that wrong? Yes, I've met her many times. She's really interesting. And I did an interview with her. This is just a side. Right before Fast Car came out, when she was moving upwards, and you could tell it was going to take off. This album was astonishing. The whole album, her debut album, really.

47:14And I did an interview with her at, you're not going to believe this, a women's festival called Sister Fire that was in Washington. I'm sorry, what part of that is not believable? It was called Sister Fire. What part of that is not believable? I really, every time I had to say it, I cringed. Sisterfire. And she was playing Frisbee in every, I tried to ask her questions and she's very shy. And she only answered in single word answers. So she just wasn't interested in PR or reporters. And I was sitting there at Sisterfire on a very hot day trying to get Tracy Chapman to complete a sentence. Oh, by the way, we need new music for Pivot.

47:56And they keep coming back with the lamest shit ever. if anybody, if I got invited to Florence and the Machine by Florence here at the O2. If Florence or Tracy Chapman want to license us at a reasonable rate, a song for Pivot, we need a new song. Or if anyone has any ideas, but we need a new song. We should crowdsource this. We do have to have the rights because we respect rights. We respect writers and songwriters' rights, and we would not take their things like tech companies. Okay, we're going to go on a break. When we come back, we'll talk about why Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey romance rumors mean big business and discuss the origins of Scott's best buddy, Joey Bag of Donuts.

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49:44Okay, Scott, we're back. This has to be quick. I know it will be for you. Did you see Taylor Swift as a new boyfriend? That means a new album. That means a week-long relationship and an album and a tour. She's rumored to be dating Kansas City Chiefs Travis Kelsey's experience, the Taylor Swift effect, after Taylor took a trip to watch Kelsey play in Kansas. He's a very good football player, by the way. He's actually a phenomenon himself. His merch saw a 400 % increase, making him one of the top five selling NFL players. The game viewership saw Taylor jump two ratings on the show, an 8 % jump in female viewers age 12 to 17, which is incredible.

50:18This woman is like... If you are really committed to this show and its success, you'd start having sex with Taylor Swift. All broads lead to the same place here, Kara. You know, there's all these rumors that she's gay on the internet. She's just going to ignore that. Yeah, I'm going to ignore it. But there are rumors she's gay on the internet, which I would love to marry Taylor Swift. By the way, I hope they have a mess of kids. If they had, I would like them to have a dozen kids, and I would take those kids and start an army and invade Australia. They would woo them, and they would make them feel safe with a ballad, and then they'd come in with the muscle.

50:47Can you please focus? Because this is really interesting. She has the ability to like, she got all these people to vote. I know, I know. Her marketing prowess. Hot Girl Summer, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Barbie. No, no, but I'm serious. Take it seriously. She's a phenomena. I get it. This woman has economic power. Not just a phenomena. I want you to talk about the brand and economic power of this. And the Republicans are attacking her now, which I'm like, oh, no, don't. Please, or please do. Please do. Keep doing it. Well, can I just ask you, what would you do next if you were her? I'm going to try to get an answer out of you about marketing.

51:17What would I do next? Yeah, what would you do as her, given her economic power? I mean, if I were her, I'd get a big cocaine habit, but that's because I'm flawed and can't handle success. You know what? What should she do? Exactly the same fucking thing. She's an inspiration. She doesn't have a ton of surgery. She doesn't use foul language like me. She doesn't disparage people. She has great production values. She works her ass off. She pays her people really well. Girl, keep on being you. There's nothing. I have absolutely no advice for Taylor Swift. Exactly. I do love that the Republicans are like, who is she anyway?

51:55And you're like, oh, my God, please keep doing it because you will lose the election based on attacking her. It's not a really good thing to attack Taylor Swift in this moment in time, at least. Anyway, one more topic. We got a ton of listener emails on this week, the origin of Joey Bag of Donuts. Our smart listeners have informed us that Joey can be traced back to comedian Mike Verbiglia, who was in a Taylor Swift video, anti-hero. He's fantastic. I'm going to his one-man show in London. I'm taking my six-year-old. It's wonderful. Go backstage and say hi. I love, he's great. I did a great interview with him.

52:22Let's listen to Mike Birbiglia. And I go, oh, my brother Joe worked here last summer, and his eyes lit up. And he goes, Joey bag of donuts?

52:37Yo, brothers, Joey bag of donuts?

52:43We love Joey Bag of Donuts. Anyway, Scott, that's where it's from, just so you know. So I didn't know that was the original reference. It's a true story. My reference, I was, as one does when you're living in New York, I had an apartment down in South Beach. And I went out a few times with a woman. And we were talking about something. And she said, yeah, you know, some Joey Bag of Donuts invites me on his boat and expects me to be his girlfriend. That's literally where I remember hearing it for the first time. Wow. Okay. She was probably roughing the mic. It gets, I love when these things get out of the culture.

53:16I think it's really interesting. Thank you to everyone who chimed in to shed light on this very important subject of, and a lot of people did, of Joey Bag of Donuts. If you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, and I think we did here, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, we've got a short amount of time left. Let's get to some predictions. Scott, you have a prediction. Go ahead. Kevin McCarthy and Linda Iaccarino are putting on a master class on what it means not to be a leader. And they refuse to stand up to the craziest wing of their party.

53:51In one instance, it's far right Republicans. In the other instance, it's an owner who's reckless. and it's never the wrong time to do the right thing. And both of them refuse to do the right thing. And ultimately, leaders like that fall because they lose the respect. I think one or both of them is gone by the end of the year because I think they're demonstrating just such incredible weakness. And they literally just look like someone has to have that. But do they have strength, Scott? They don't. Either of them don't have strength. Not strength as a person, but do they have power? Because he is subject to these people voting.

54:22I think of Speaker McCarthy. I think if Speaker McCarthy had gotten up and said, I am not going to be held hostage by people on the far left or the far right. I'm going to do what's right for this country, enough already. You don't know how to take yes for an answer. We need to solve this budget crisis, and then we need to get back to the good work of reigning out of control. He kind of said that. He kind of said that, but go ahead. This impeachment bullshit. I mean, he's just being flopped around like a Kong ball. Anyways, he needs to risk his job. Leadership is every once in a while saying, you know what?

54:57So be it. This isn't the pursuit of power. It's the pursuit of what's right. And the people who can demonstrate that end up with more power. If Linda Yaccarino doesn't occasionally stand up and say, Elon was wrong to do that and it's not going to happen on my watch and I apologize. But both of them are literally a masterclass and what it means to be a weak leader and ultimately lose your leadership position because people do want leaders to push back on them. Occasionally, a leader stands up and says, no, guys, stop it. You're wrong. And I realize you can fire me. Now I'm going to virtue. I've sat on boards where hedge funds put me on the board, and the hedge fund calls me and says, we want this, this, and this.

55:37I'm like, well, I disagree. And until you remove me from the board, I'm going to make my own decisions. And they respect that. Not everyone does. I mean, look, Kevin McCarthy allowed this move to vacate by a single person, so he doesn't have the power. He can't get the votes. He can't whip the votes. In Linda's case, she's unusually sunny towards Elon on Twitter, too. By the end of the year, one or both of them no longer hold their position. People don't respect. You can't hold a leadership position and never demonstrate leadership. At some point, people decide you're the wrong person. Or be constantly in agreement with your boss, your obvious boss.

56:12In this case of Kevin McCarthy, it's Trump. And in the case of Linda, it's Elon. And so you do have to disagree with your boss. It's very powerful. There you go. Good prediction. It's a very good prediction. And I really appreciated you doing the union thing. I think you did a good job explaining yourself and doing, you know, making a defense and also talking about what you thought about it. And I appreciate that. That showed leadership, Scott. Anyway, Scott, read us out. Actually, Cara, I think you've had a wonderful few days because you're awesome. Please read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

56:46Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio, and Gaddy McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week with another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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