Comcast Splits, OpenAI Weighs IPO Delay, and Buttigieg Targeted

5:28Kara Swisher:Secretary of Defense, that's what they should do for him if the Democrats win. Oh, 100%.

5:32Scott Galloway:He'll be in the cabinet. That would be so good. He'll be in the cabinet. That would be so good. As long as the governor gets to appoint the next senator. Anyways.

5:38Kara Swisher:Anyway, I don't know. I vote for the vulgar Scott Galloway. There you go.

5:42Scott Galloway:A chicken in every pot, a Cialis in every cupboard.

5:45Kara Swisher:Oh, my God. Galloway 28. You thought Trump was Christine.

5:48Scott Galloway:Oh, my God.

5:49Kara Swisher:Get ready for us.

5:50Scott Galloway:I'd have Patrick, my male escort in the Lincoln bedroom just for hello later. I'd open a dispensary. You want to see a UFC fight? I'm opening a dispensary on the East Lawn, on the West Lawn.

6:00Kara Swisher:I would have the nanobubbler business everywhere. I'd be bubbling nanos, everything. I don't even know what that is. Let me just tell you, nanobubbler for president. Anyway, we've got so much to get to today. What else is going on, Scott? Where are you, London?

6:14Scott Galloway:I'm in London where it's down to 72. But it's really interesting. When it's 78 in Southern California, it feels pleasant in the libraries. When it's 78 here, it feels like apricot.

6:24Kara Swisher:Yeah, you told me that. Yeah, you didn't like it there. It has been so hot. That was hot as fuckity fuck in France.

6:29Scott Galloway:And the metaphor for the UK is the following. I have air conditioning, except when you need it, it doesn't work. If it's 65 degrees, I can cool my house to 55. But once it gets above 80, it just doesn't work.

6:43Kara Swisher:Oh, wow. They're not good with the air conditioning there. They got to get good with it because every summer it seems worse and worse. I mean, they're ovens, those apartments. They really are. They're really.

6:53Scott Galloway:France, last week, France was the hottest place on earth. It's because the dog was wearing shorts.

6:58Kara Swisher:You were by the ocean, but in Paris it was very hot. I am headed to Vermont where it's going to be really hot here. Here it's going to be hot there. It's going to be hot all across the East Coast this week. This heat stuff is really something. It is really something, yeah. It's become, we got to really think hard about it. doing, by the way, data centers. No. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. So let's dig in. There's so much news. Scott even participated in the group chat. He was like, there's so much news. What's going on? But actually his selections were correct. But because the first one is something I think I was a little, was I surprised?

7:32Kara Swisher:Comcast is spinning off NBCUniversal and Sky into a separate publicly traded company. The new NBCUniversal will include NBC, the Universal film studio, theme parks, and Sky. This is the satellite service they have in Europe. Comcast keeps Xfinity internet and wireless. So it's back to square one, I guess. The market liked it. Comcast shares jumped 21 % in pre-market trading Monday morning. It's not a totally clean break. Comcast will hold a roughly 20 % stake in the new NBCUniversal. I think they still have a big stake in MS now too. And the deal is expected to close in about a year. There's a catch though.

8:08Kara Swisher:Analysts say, well, the spinoff gives NBCUniversal more freedom to do deals that leaves Comcast's broadband business more exposed at a time when cable is already under pressure. So talk about this. The people they're putting in place are very good executives. But does NBC now re-merge with MSNOW or what? I don't know. You need to explain this to me. I really didn't quite understand why they're doing it now, what the troubles they're seeking. I know they had looked at buying Warner at one point. So could Netflix buy NBCUniversal? There's a lot there. There's a lot at those studios. So thoughts.

8:44Scott Galloway:So this is why companies conglomerate. The board who decides to see his compensation hires a firm called Towers Parent because compensation is the hardest part and one of the most important things that a board does. And because boards don't want to do any work, they pay this firm, Towers Parent, $200 ,000 or$300 ,000, and they come in with a survey. And the survey says, on a scale of zero to 100, 50 being the average compensation, and they look at the industry and the size of the business. And so if you're running a bank that does 10 billion a year in business, 50 % might be 3 million a year. But if you're running a bank that does 80 billion in business or whatever, then the average compensation is 20 million.

9:24Scott Galloway:So the incentives and also the ego and also the testosterone and the penis and the midlife crisis all lead...

9:33Kara Swisher:Penis.

9:33Scott Galloway:Incentives for the CEO to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And sometimes there are real synergies around different businesses, but almost always not. Typically what happens is you end up with a Frankenstein. And so the market gets to a point where you have these Frankensteins of businesses that have no synergy. And what the market -

9:53Kara Swisher:Can I change the matter? It's a turducken.

9:55Scott Galloway:A turducken. Thank you for that. And what the market has a tendency to do is it looks at the shittiest business because it says there's no synergy here. And it says, okay, New York Times, you own 17 % of the Boston Red Sox and the seventh tallest building in America. This is how much the building is worth. This is how much the Boston Red Sox are worth. But instead, we're going to look at your shittiest business, your regional newspapers, which trade at four to five times EBITDA. And we're going to assign that multiple to the entire business because they don't give you any credit for the stuff that's working really well.

10:29Scott Galloway:So the disposition of assets becomes accretive to shareholders. And in this case, you have a media business that's strong and growing while the connectivity business is shrinking. And what they do is shareholders assign the multiple in the connectivity business to the strong and growing business. Last quarter, the media division, get this, reported a 40 % increase in revenue to nearly$12 billion for the quarter. Theme parks grew 24%. Media grew 61%. And studios grew 21%. 21%. And over the same period, the connectivity division shrunk revenues 3%. So what you have is

11:06Kara Swisher:So it's connectivity that's not as

11:08Scott Galloway:That's right. Residential connectivity shrunk about 4%, while business connectivity grew 6%. So what happens is, if you split these things apart, you have one company, the connectivity business, which is a mature business that's in structural decline, but still spends off a ton of cash. And then you have a growth business, when it becomes a pure play growth business, gets a much higher multiple. And the result is a stock that was up 25 % based on these two companies that have more focus.

11:36Kara Swisher:So what happens to each of them? Is there like, look, you have MS, they split off MS now, and now it's trying to create its own little new division and doing well for what it is, right? It actually has seen some growth under those executives. And then you have the media business that has, by the way, there's some fine executives at the media part. Very well-run company. Donna Langley, I think Mike, anyway, it's a very smart group of people. Whenever I meet them, I'm always so impressed. But they weren't able to participate in the Warner thing, for example. And I know it was frustrating because they were actually the natural owner for that.

12:12Scott Galloway:Agreed.

12:13Kara Swisher:You know, I was like, of all the things, I was like, Paramount, they're a bunch of incompetents. Netflix is too big and going to get in trouble. Comcast was the perfect buyer for that, you know, in terms of quality people and the theme parks and everything else. So what happens here? And the other thing, just as a sidelight, the other two things. Could Netflix come in and do something here? I think it's too much. Disney's CFO has signaled they intend to keep the linear and streaming businesses together for now. They don't own a cable division and not split it off. So they're keeping those together, the studios and the streaming and everything else.

12:49Kara Swisher:so it is the strategy it seems like it's the same strategy if they're going to hold on to uh nbc universal film studio theme parks and sky right so they're so that's a little connectivity i guess but thoughts on that what what happens to each of these parts what happens to the cable parts and then what happens to the i mean could like elon come in and buy the cable parts for Starlink, or there were rumors of him buying one of the phone service businesses. Thoughts?

13:20Scott Galloway:Well, I mean, it's scary, but with a$2 trillion market cap, there's very little he couldn't buy right now. So Versant, their stock is down 21 % since the spinoff. I don't know what happens. Okay, first off, Disney, for the time being, is holding onto its cable assets. That means no one's offer the price they want. It will make sense for them to shed that business. Because the parks, the IRL business, the parks is an unbelievable business. So this is all a long-winded way of saying, I'm not sure what they're going to do, but they have simplified and created pure place. Because here's the bottom line.

13:54Scott Galloway:If you put yourself in the shoes of an investor, they don't need the Roberts family to diversify for them. CEOs love diversification. Why? Okay. My connectivity business is down, but my parks were up 24%. In other words, They sleep better at night because they can grow 6%, 8%, 10 % a year and not worry that, oh, fuck, I got a problem at MSNBC. Whereas this is the thing, though. Investors, I don't need you to diversify for me. I can buy Versant stock if I think it's really cheap. I can buy the Parks business stock if I think it's a grower and I want growth. But CEOs' incentive and compensation and, quite frankly, wanting to sleep at night and be bigger and badder leads to an agglomeration or a conglomeration that eventually the stock market throws up on.

14:44Scott Galloway:And that's what's happened here. And you know what? There's a stock right now that if it broke up, it would triple. You know what that company is?

14:53Kara Swisher:What's that? What is it?

14:54Scott Galloway:I'll give you a hint. I went to their dinner last Sunday night.

14:57Kara Swisher:I don't know. What is it? Maybe you've mentioned it before.

15:00Scott Galloway:I'll give you another hint. VR, but only subscale.

15:06Kara Swisher:Oh, Snapchat.

15:07Scott Galloway:If Snap spun their spectacles group, the stock would triple or quadruple.

15:14Kara Swisher:Oh, interesting.

15:14Scott Galloway:That is the greatest unlock waiting.

15:18Kara Swisher:He loves them spectacles, though.

15:19Scott Galloway:Well, that's the problem. It's a dual class shareholder and Evan controls the company.

15:24Kara Swisher:Yeah, he loves them spectacles.

15:25Scott Galloway:Do you realize that I think Meta gets about$400 in market cap per user. Snap gets 17. Wow.

15:33Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're right. He should get rid of the Spectacles.

15:35Scott Galloway:If they spun and did a deal with Xiaomi or something, if they spun the Spectacles group and it was just a pure play social media platform, rocket ship.

15:44Kara Swisher:Interesting. Ooh, I like that idea.

15:45Scott Galloway:Get this. Do you know how much the stock is off the last five years?

15:48Kara Swisher:A lot. A lot. Yeah.

15:51Scott Galloway:93%.

15:51Kara Swisher:Yeah, it's crazy.

15:53Scott Galloway:93%. A pure play, 500 million people a day social media network that has the most attractive user base for advertisers in history, that is people under the age of 25. You get rid of this weeping sore called the Spectacles Unit that is subscale, rocket ship.

16:12Kara Swisher:What happens to each of these? There's Versant, obviously, Warner's is his own little nightmare, although there's rumors that CNN will get spun off with Rob Bonta. and the California Attorney General. But what happens to each of these divisions?

16:29Scott Galloway:Well, I think the media and parks business has real synergy because if you put out a Harry Potter film, you can have a Harry Potter ride, right?

16:36Kara Swisher:Yeah, right, right, exactly.

16:37Scott Galloway:The connectivity business should be run.

16:39Kara Swisher:They do. They do indeed.

16:40Scott Galloway:They just get focused. Now, in terms of Versan and the cable assets, those are declining businesses, but those can be amazing businesses. You go Yellow Pages, and that was, this is the weakest flex in the world. I was on the board of the world's largest Yellow Pages company, And all we did was just go around the world and buy other Yellow Pages companies and basically hold on to the salespeople, get rid of everybody else and their cash machines. And that's what you're going to see. It doesn't make CNN – CNN should go into Versant and ABC should sell their shit. They need to consolidate the back end on these cable properties.

17:15Scott Galloway:And that's what they'll do. And they'll still be good businesses. They'll just be in decline.

17:19Kara Swisher:Yeah, that's absolutely right. They could buy – they could be the largest small player, right? It'll do well. It'll do well for a long, long time.

17:25Scott Galloway:Well, they're hugely profitable businesses.

17:27Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting. I wonder if they'll bring Versant back, will they? Why would you? Why would you want them?

17:33Scott Galloway:No, I don't think so. Again, the story has to be clean, right? I mean, Alphabet's learned their lesson. They're going to spin Waymo. Waymo's already spun, I guess. It's an independent company.

17:43Kara Swisher:Why didn't Sky stay with the cable business?

17:46Scott Galloway:That's a correct question. I don't know.

17:48Kara Swisher:That was the one that stuck in my head. Yeah. So it'll be interesting. Yeah, because they do. You're right. theme parks, the film studio, NBC, I'm not sure where that fits in, a broadcast network. I guess it just -

17:59Scott Galloway:But Comcast and Hearst are the most underrated management teams in media. They're just very smart people who consistently do the right thing for shareholders. They're aggressive, they're smart, and they're totally under the radar. Like they don't want their CEOs getting in trouble or making earnings doing -

18:18Kara Swisher:They also couldn't play in the Warner thing. I remember I went to the Wicked premiere and I ran into a bunch of them and they were like, we are the obvious right owner. I was like, oh, I know, but you're not getting it because Richie Rich over there and the crazies at Netflix, you can't beat them, right? You can't beat either of those companies. But I think this does give them a cleaner shot at buying stuff up. You know, there's all kinds of things for sale like Lionsgate. There's all manner of stuff for sale in Hollywood. So we'll see what happens. You're going to see a lot of M &A, as Scott Galloway says.

18:48Kara Swisher:Anyway, interesting move by Brian Roberts, who I really like a lot, I have to say. He's a classy guy. Everyone over there is classy. They're a classy gang. They're very competent.

18:58Scott Galloway:They're from Philadelphia, which means they've killed people. That's all I know. I'm sorry. Any family that is self-made billionaires in Philadelphia, there's definitely people buried in the foundation of a building of that Sky Tower.

19:10Kara Swisher:You know why I have a good feeling for Brian Roberts is because I was working for Murdoch and then I went over to Comcast. And it was such a pleasure. Let me just tell you. It was such a different personality, although Rupert was more fun at a party. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why OpenAI might delay its IPO. We're all tech this week.

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21:55Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. OpenAI is reportedly considering delaying its IPO until next year. According to New York Times, the company has been planning to go public as soon as the third or fourth quarter of this year. Valuation appears to be one of the sticking points. Sam Altman is reportedly holding out for a$1 trillion. They all want this. The company was valued at$850 billion back in March,$850 billion. There's also some hesitation in light of SpaceX IPO, which is sort of bumpity, which has been trending downward after the Skyhide debut, though it's doing a little better as we record. News of the possible delay led to a tech sell-off, stock sell-off with shares of Oracle, CoreWeave, and SoftBank all falling.

22:31Kara Swisher:And there's a possibility that Anthropic is breathing down their neck that they may delay too. There was some chatter about that. So is it important for them to wait? As you talked about, the money is getting sucked out of the system And their financials leaked a few weeks ago with losses increasing nearly 8x in 2025 and spending hitting$34 billion. It's not the greatest story in the world. Thoughts? And, of course, they've got Anthropic right in front of them, not breathing down their neck right in front of them. They're riding behind it.

23:02Scott Galloway:I think this is not systemic or I think this is an individual thing. And that is I believe that Anthropic is still going to get out. This is what I call the great flippening.

23:15Kara Swisher:Flippening. Is that a word you made up? Is that a vulgar word you made up?

23:18Scott Galloway:Flippening. Yeah, there you go. In the Lincoln bedroom tonight, come watch Flippening. It does sound like a sex act, doesn't it? There you go. Flippening. What would that be? Well, I feel as if I need to use my safe word right now. Maybe. Anyways, the great Flippening.

23:33Kara Swisher:I laugh at that every time. It's good. You said it hundreds of times to me. It never gets old. And I laugh every time. Go ahead.

23:41Scott Galloway:So, Q4 of 2025, OpenAI is the dominant leader. Right now, Anthropic is a doctor. We've never seen Avis overtake Hertz this fast. This isn't even Pepsi overtaking Coke. It's like RC Cola one morning is the market leader. And I think Anthropic gets out, but I think open AI, if they were going to have to show their wares or open their cupboards, there was just going to be evidence everywhere that Anthropic is eating their lunch. And I talked to a lot of CEOs about AI and a company I'm an investor in section talks, it does all this, helps companies upscale around AI. What they're seeing is the following is quote unquote blame the model.

24:24Scott Galloway:And everyone's blaming open AI and swapping them out for Anthropic believing they're going to get a much greater ROI. So I think that basically, when we look back on the great drawdown that will be AI valuations that is, I think, going to happen in the next 12 months, this will be seen as a real crack that kind of was a signal of what's to come.

24:47Kara Swisher:Is it smart to wait? You talked about the sort of lack of cap. There's not enough money here, essentially.

24:54Scott Galloway:I don't. If they could get out, they would. I think what this says is the CFO talked to the banker and the banker said, okay, there's no wallpapering over this. Your business has lost a ton of momentum. And then you combine it with the second thing that is different than Anthropic. Altman has taken the Amazon and Netflix, fake it until you make it, spend more money than anyone else and your stock will go up. He's taken that to an extreme that is too much. And that is, if you look at how much money they are burning, I think what the S1s, and they would be side by side immediately. Everyone would be comparing Anthropic and OpenAI's financials against each other.

25:36Scott Galloway:And I think what you would see is the following. Not only has OpenAI massively lost momentum against Anthropic, it is also operating much more promiscuously with cash. and that is despite Anthropics' massive investments and massive losses, it's projecting that it'll break even by 2030. And Sam Altman's whole thing is, I know I'm committing to a trillion dollars in CapEx because the future, there's only one winner. And I think the market, I think the S1 side-by-side would show a company that is losing momentum and is spending way too much money and losing too much money. And I think the bankers have come back and said the fault -

26:18Kara Swisher:They don't want the comparison.

26:19Scott Galloway:Well, this is what's going to happen in the next six months. This is going to be the great exit from cost. This is going to be the great reduction in spending and CapEx commitments by OpenAI. They are going to massively decrease their expenditure and CapEx commitments because I think the bank…

26:38Kara Swisher:Then it hits Oracle. It hits a lot of them. It hits all of them, right?

26:41Scott Galloway:Still an amazing company. It's still growing really fast. But the amount of money they were committing to in terms of CapEx has gotten out of control. And then you couple that with a reversal in momentum. I think Goldman and JP Morgan and the CFO have said to Sam, this is going to be hard.

27:00Kara Swisher:So then what do they do? If Anthropic gets out at over a trillion, they've got to meet that, right? Speaking of dick measuring contests, they kind of want that number. Can they actually get out then in 2027?

27:14Scott Galloway:Oh, I think this is a cost story. And that is, I think they're just going to have to reduce their commitments around - They got to clean it up. Yeah, because, okay, say they get out at 700 and not a trillion, that's still pretty good. I mean - Yeah, no, I get it. At some point, they're going to need to raise capital in the public markets, I think. Or maybe could they raise in the private markets? The weird thing is, I wonder if TBG and the private equity firms, they got a 16 or a 17 % pick, which is really our guaranteed return, which is really unusual in the private markets. I wonder if they would still do that deal today because the reversal in fortunes here has been like nothing I've ever seen in business without a scandal.

27:53Scott Galloway:And so –

27:53Kara Swisher:Weird question. Does it get bought?

27:56Scott Galloway:There's so few players that could buy it. I mean, it's a handful of companies that could afford to buy it. It's one of the big tech companies or SpaceX. That's it. There's maybe five –

28:06Kara Swisher:There was all this online plotting that Elon did, sort of made sure that SpaceX IPO was too big and then failed a little bit to stop them, just so you know.

28:15Scott Galloway:Well, if the next round, see, rather than do a down round, what Altman did was he offered -

28:21Kara Swisher:He guaranteed it.

28:22Scott Galloway:Yeah, he offered these terms that typically you don't agree to, a guaranteed return, because he wanted the headline number to be whatever it was,$850 billion or whatever. But at some point, if they start running into a cash crunch, which I don't think they will, at the bottom line, I think the second half of 2026 is about Sam Altman rationalizing the expense side of the business and their CapEx commitments, because it's still growing like crazy.

28:47Kara Swisher:And then Anthropic goes out, doesn't delay, goes out.

28:49Scott Galloway:If I were Dario, I'd want to be like, I'm on top, bitch. I'm going public.

28:53Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah, right away. Yeah, they've got to. It's a momentum story for them. Absolutely.

28:58Scott Galloway:And they have a great story. I think the S1 is going to look really good for Anthropic.

29:02Kara Swisher:Comparison. Yeah, in comparison. I mean, what's really interesting is how kind of pissy the OpenAI people are about the story Dario gets over and over again. I mean, he can be imperious himself and, you know, a little bit self-righteous, which is interesting. But I think he's got the better story. He does. And a lot of this is narrative. And it actually would be good for Anthropic for not to have them there. Although, you know, looking better than open AI is a good thing for them, right? Presumably. He hasn't been as much as spendy.

29:32Scott Galloway:This is the CFO. This is the CFO and J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs said, you don't want these numbers public right now.

29:40Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And by the way, the perception to the ones that did go public wasn't great. All right, we'll see what happens. Interesting story. Interesting developing story. But it will impact companies like Oracle and other ones. You saw that. Just a small drawdown of their shares because they have so many commitments all around the board. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll discuss Pete Buttigieg getting targeted.

30:09Hey, Sue Bird here. I'm bringing Bird's Eye View to Chicago for Vox Media's The Lineup. It's a full day of live programming that celebrates the WNBA and its players. three stellar podcasts four legendary hosts all on one stage and I'm kicking it off with a special guest you'll absolutely want to be in the room for get your tickets for Bird's Eye View live show presented by Delta and supported by Google Gemini at boxmedia.com slash lineup that's boxmedia.com slash lineup I will see you all Friday July 24th in Chicago hey everybody it's Prime Video's Cassidy Hubberth and the Chicago Sky Skylar Dingens and I are bringing our new podcast and mom to Chicago for Vox Media's The Lineup on Friday, July 24th.

30:56And mom is the conversation motherhood deserves. It's honest, unfiltered and real. Skylar and I are diving into what it actually looks like to be both a working professional and a mother. The identity shifts, the career pivots, the mental load and the stuff that usually stays behind closed doors. And at The Lineup, we're bringing that conversation live. It's a full day of programming that celebrates this amazing league and its players. Three stellar podcasts, four legendary hosts, one stage. Get your tickets for the lineup at voxmedia.com slash lineup. That's voxmedia.com slash lineup. See you all Friday, July 24th in Chicago.

31:38One, two, three. I'm stand-up comedian John Marco Cerezi. And I'm actor-penis model Russell Daniels. Daniels. The downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are because let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode, we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guests' lives, the world, but in a fun way. Bottom line is you're going to walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Huron, Busy Phillips, Stavros Halkias, Laverne Cox, Hassan Piker, Alana Glazer. I promise you're going to have a good time.

32:16Now on the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The Downside.

32:26Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. I want to talk about a story that came out over the weekend about Pete Buttigieg's family. Buttigieg says police showed up at his house after an anonymous tip claimed his four-year-old twins were at risk. CPS investigated the claim and the Michigan State Police later confirmed the report was completely fabricated. While the incident was being investigated, Buttigieg was not allowed to be alone with his four-year-old children for 24 hours, and they were interviewed by authorities without either parent present. The incident happened during Pride Month right after the family posted a Father's Day photos online.

32:57Kara Swisher:This was terrifying to someone like myself. This was like, it was just some tip that was called in about another tip of something. Pete allegedly, it was all nonsense, but they had to because they're authorities and he's a well-known person. they had to actually investigate, which is their job. I think they felt sick to do it, but turned out to be all false. It's a version of swatting, but more nefarious. Swarming. Swarming or whatever. And he's polling well for the 2020 presidential run. This is just, I can't imagine. I know them pretty well. I know, especially Chastain, this is the fear they have as gay parents.

33:36Kara Swisher:And something I've discussed with them, you know, this is the fear. This is this sort of weird feeling people have about gay parenting that is just, I don't even want to call it gay parents, just parenting, but that they get stuck with. They're wonderful parents, and these kids are lovely. And for them to have to go through this just sent a chill when I read his piece. And he's not someone who usually is particularly dramatic, but he was curious about what happened as he should have been. Any thoughts on this?

34:06Scott Galloway:I don't think this is a gay thing. I think this is stochastic terrorism. I know a couple.

34:11Kara Swisher:Oh, interesting.

34:12Scott Galloway:I know a couple, a straight couple in the Midwest, and Child Protective Services showed up at their door one day and said, we're from Child Protective Services, we need to speak to your children. They had no idea what was going on. By the way, the whole neighborhood found out about it. There's no way you recover from that. No matter how innocent you are proven, that's on your Wikipedia page. If you're ever on trial for anything, the prosecutor can ask, weren't Child Protective Services called to your house? And when I go through GSA, I immediately feel guilty. I immediately like, oh, where's that joint in my pocket?

34:44Scott Galloway:I've done something wrong. When you see your suitcase go to the part where they investigate it, you immediately feel guilty. How does a four-year-old not remember that strangers who you're supposed to speak to, who have the authority to separate you from your parents, start asking these types of questions. How do you not somewhere in your brain think, are mommy and daddy not good people? How do you -

35:09Kara Swisher:Right, 100%.

35:09Scott Galloway:How do the parents, the community, their reputation, and the kids ever recover from that?

35:16Kara Swisher:Ever. I agree.

35:17Scott Galloway:And this is the problem. This is a result of the fetishization and anonymity being linked to shareholder value. And that is democracy depends upon disagreement, but also accountability. And when the loudest voices face no consequences, the most thoughtful ones log off in fear. And what happens here is the following. Child Protective Services, their heart is in the right place. They're trying to encourage people to bubble up real instances of child abuse.

35:54Kara Swisher:Yeah, because they usually miss a lot of them, right?

35:56Scott Galloway:That's right. But here's the problem, and here's what needs to be done. The fix isn't to end anonymity. It's smarter than that. The solution is verified, yet anonymous credentialing. And that is online. There should be a digital stamp that proves you are a unique human being without revealing which human you are. When you call Child Protective Services, and as it ended up, so the family I was referencing, you know what it ended up? Two months later, they found out one of their daughters was in a beef with another girl in the same high school, and the girl, the rival girl, called. This happens all over.

36:37Scott Galloway:But here's the problem. The family faces no consequence. So if you call Child Protective Services, we're going to guarantee your anonymity. But after investigation, if we find out there's no evidence, guess what? We're going to investigate you.

36:55Kara Swisher:I agree. I was like, who are these people who did this? And, you know, swatting is bad. Swatting is dangerous because there's guns involved, like with kids and everything else. And to me, it's so heinous, the idea of it. But SWATing is when you call in that there's some terrible thing happening at the house. And then, you know, SWAT teams come in as they should because they never know. Right. And so this is such an abuse of a system that's already broken. Right. It's already a problematic system. They don't catch enough child abuse. And sometimes kids don't get checked on. And you read those stories over and over again.

37:29Kara Swisher:But in this case, what what sick fuck would think of this thing? Like what sick fuck would make this stuff up? that to me and I would like to find them. And you know what I do to them, but I think the authorities really need to have a system. And the thing is, you don't want to discourage people from telling on real issues of abuse, right? That's the thing. It's just, I was so upset by this.

37:55Scott Galloway:This is really upsetting. But the bigger issue is the following, that same architecture, anonymous, consequence-free, infinitely scalable online platforms. They let bots flood elections, radicalize millions, and make public service a target sport. And the bottom line is, this is where the right gets it wrong and the left gets it wrong. The internet doesn't have a speech problem. It has an accountability problem. And our fetishization for free speech and anonymity has resulted in a total lack of accountability. If you believe the kids across the street are being abused and Child Protective Services shows up and they find out, oh, you misunderstood the situation, you're still not liable.

38:37Scott Galloway:You didn't do anything wrong. Your reasons were valid. But if it finds out you're just a homophobic fucking weirdo or your daughter has had a beef with another girl in the high school.

38:51Kara Swisher:There should be consequences.

38:53Scott Galloway:There's consequences.

38:53Kara Swisher:I think Pete was talking about that. You know, I hope, look, I know they're worried about these issues as gay parents as we all are, because I was always worried about, it just sticks in the back of your mind. If it prevents him from running, which really, I hope it doesn't. That's what I hope it doesn't. I mean, because let me just say, they're wonderful parents. They're wonderful people and they're wonderful parents.

39:19Scott Galloway:Yeah, but what do you say to the kids? And there's this strange people in suits saying, we need you to go stay.

39:25Kara Swisher:Yeah, the whole thing is.

39:27Scott Galloway:Like, what do you say to your kids? Like a four-year-old? What do you say to them?

39:32Kara Swisher:I wouldn't even, I don't even want to think about it. It was so upsetting. Anyway, Pete and Justin, we're so sorry. This is just, this is disgusting. And this is not how you behave towards people who are decent, great parents. And whoever did this, I hope they find you and I hope you have some sort of reckoning. As of this recording, by the way, we're going to move on. House Speaker Mike Johnson says he's sending the landmark housing bill to the White House days after Trump abruptly canceled the signing ceremony for that bill. Interesting move. The bill which passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming bipartisan support aims to and also would be a win for Trump aims to bring down housing costs, expand homeownership and boost construction.

40:09Kara Swisher:But Trump says he won't sign it into law until Congress passes his Save America Act, which would require a photo ID to vote and effectively end mail in voting. By the way, the Supreme Court just upheld a Mississippi law for late arriving mail-in ballots, a blow to the Trump administration's efforts to queer the election, which is what they're trying to do. And the housing bill can still become law, even if Trump doesn't sign it. So it's technical. If he doesn't sign it, it can become law. If he vetoes it, I believe they have the votes to overcome his veto. So they're kind of putting him in a position.

40:42Kara Swisher:Under the Constitution, the president doesn't sign a bill. Within 10 days, it becomes law without a signature. And again, Congress can override this one. And so it was interesting that Johnson did this. He obviously knows it's a good thing to have this on the Republican record or at least take credit for it, even though it's kind of bipartisan. Thoughts on that? Housing is one of the biggest problems in America, whether it's I was reading this morning that Finland took an opposite route.

41:09Scott Galloway:Instead of focusing on mental health or veterans affairs for the homeless, they just focus on housing. They're like, just build cheap housing and get people in housing. And it ends up that housing is a weird form of birth control, that every 10 % increase in housing prices, birth rates go down 1%. It reduces people coupling, it reduces birth rates, it reduces self-esteem. You know, housing, affordable housing is really important. And what we have here is, again, the incumbents, once they've owned homes, make it more and more difficult for new permits. It's gone way too far. Congress, to their credit, recognized it.

41:46Scott Galloway:This bill attempts to get rid of NIMBY legislation and proposed YIMBY legislation, credits, more credits, more federal sponsorship for communities that have more housing. This is, I actually thought the bill itself, when you read it, is pretty weak sauce, but it's a very strong symbolic movement in the right direction. And in addition, when is the last time Congress voted 358 to 32 on anything?

42:15Kara Swisher:Right, right.

42:15Scott Galloway:So, and this makes all sorts of sense. Trump getting in the way of this was just stupid. And again, it's veto proof. So I think this is a win.

42:27Kara Swisher:What does he do? What does he do? Sign? He's got to sign it and take credit, right? Oh, yeah, I think so. He should. But he's still going to try everything possible. This SAVE Act, that's not going to pass President Trump. It's not. It's not happening. So why does he keep doing this?

42:42Scott Galloway:Oh, shit. I mean, you're asking me to get into this guy's brain. I would have thought he would, if I were advising him, I would say, oh, my God, put on a tool belt like you're on a construction side and run around and take credit for this thing, take credit for housing. This is a big, big issue for Americans.

43:02Kara Swisher:Right. Instead, he's obsessed with, now he wants to build a golf course and put trees in front of the White House. He's just obsessed with all these weird, obsessive things around the D.C. area to preserve his legacy, which seems more interest to him. He went and visited. It was pouring rain yesterday, and he was out at Haynes point where he wants to put in a golf course of some sort uh there is a golf course everybody wants to improve it um and then putting maple trees around lafayette square all this stuff and then of course touting his really loser uh american state fair whatever that nobody went to um he just seems all obsessed with that kind of stuff and not something that is even if it's symbolically is even symbolically it's important to to i don't get this this is this guy i think he's terrified that things are going to go very badly after November.

43:51Kara Swisher:And so it seems to, he's going to self-soothe with maple trees. There you go. Self-soothe. Self-soothe, right. Anyway, but he should take credit for this one and he won't. All right, Scott, we're going to have one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

44:09I'm Seth Matlins. My new show, Create or Destroy, Reimagining Marketing, explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing, org design, and planning ones, the ones most don't consider marketing at all, contribute to either creating value or destroying it. Each week, I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking, and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show. It's a marketing show. A creator destroys the show that argues they've always been the same thing.

44:43from the Vox Media Podcast Network and the Wisdomist Company. New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.

44:57Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, we're going to do some wins and fails. I think I shall go first. There were so many failed choices. The grift watch of the Trump mining deal in Kazakhstan with Don and Eric Stand-to-Profit along with Lutnik's Lutnik family. What's happening in Venezuela is really depressing. watching them try to find people. So many people have died. But I'm going to be a little personal here. There's two people who died this week who I know very well and were very impactful on my life. One was Om Malik, one of the very early tech bloggers, someone who had worked very like me in regular media, but then sort of spun off and started doing a really fascinating kind of bloggy and yet fully reported attitudinal stuff way back in the day, an excellent reporter.

45:42Kara Swisher:He also did events. He did parties. And I really, I got a lot of inspiration from Ohm, who is one of the most jolly fellows. I just really enjoyed Ohm. We fought a lot about a lot of things, but what an amazing impact he had on early tech journalism when it was, you know, a lot more hopeful in a lot of ways. But he actually did call people on things very early. Very wonderful guy. He had, you know, he had shifted to becoming a venture capitalist. I didn't go that direction. But just a really wonderful, and he's getting much deserved praise from all of us who are around then. And he struggled with heart issues for a long, long time and was just a really wonderful guy.

46:22Kara Swisher:The other one was my assistant. I don't have an assistant, but I did for many years. Ed Daly also died. he had also had health problems around diabetes and everything else and just a tremendous important part of the growth of my businesses in the beginning of them and worked for me for a long time was an invaluable help and the kind of person you don't hear about he wasn't a reporter but did so much stuff to really build the businesses Walt and I built and just was a wonderful guy and was wonderful to my kids especially Louis and Alex took them on camping trips with his partner Mark and just one of these hardworking, really wonderful people who helped so many people and just really sad.

47:06Kara Swisher:I'm sorry, Louis just went to see him recently. So I'm glad that happened, but really being impact on my life and just a tremendously huge hearted person. So that is my fail. Although I also, my heart goes out with people in Venezuela and everything else. And my win is the Supreme Court just rejected Trump's attempt to get$5 million verdict in the E. Jean Carroll sexual abuse case. This is the end of the road for him. Now, I think he's going to I just texted Robbie Kaplan. Let me see if she wrote back. But who is the lawyer in the case? We'll see where it goes on the smaller verdict. He has to pay the$5 million.

47:45Kara Swisher:There is the 80, I think,$85 million,$80 million verdict that is still being disputed. But he has to give her the$5 million. and which I just kind of love. And now he is very firmly what he is accused of. He did. And he can't take it any further. And we'll see on the second part, which is a defamation related to this case. Anyway, good for E. Jean Carroll and pay up Donald Trump for what you did to her. And I just felt it was like today is the day that the Supreme Court kicks Trump in the teeth a little bit after giving him a lot of wins on immigration, which were that the Haitians, particularly the Haitian ruling was really terrible for really hardworking people in this country.

48:28Kara Swisher:In any case, congratulations to Eugene Carroll.

48:31Scott Galloway:Nice. Okay. So my fail is I can't get over, well, you could argue it's a win for broadcast news, but there were two really illuminating interviews this weekend. The The first was John Carl from ABC News interviewed Senator Todd Young and along with Senator Mark Kelly. And they talked about how President Trump accused Mark Kelly of sedition. Okay, so first off, Senator Kelly flew combat missions and also flew the space shuttle at 20 ,000 fucking miles an hour. I mean, there are a few things more patriotic than the actions of Senator Mark Kelly. And they asked, I appreciate John Kral calling Senator Todd Young out in front and say, how come you didn't, do you agree with this?

49:26Scott Galloway:And of course, Senator Todd Young broke into song about, he texted Senator Kelly to make sure he was all right, but he didn't say a fucking word. And at some point, I'm waiting for people before they lose their primary. At NYU, we have a second year, which is really a waste of money. It's such that we can charge the kids$140 ,000, not$70 ,000. And we teach all these electives like sustainability and leadership and ethics. Let me save you$7 ,000 on the leadership course of any major university. Do the right thing even when it's hard. There, you just save$7 ,000. And we bring in a formerly important person to talk about what a fucking amazing person they are and how the world was against them, but they did the right thing.

50:14Scott Galloway:And we call it a leadership course. Thank you for your$7 ,000 in student debt. There is such a lack of leadership on the most obvious issues. And I don't understand the calculus from a senator who I believe is probably a good man and respects his fellow colleague coming out and saying, it is wrong to accuse Senator Kelly, an American hero and patriot, of sedition. That is just beyond the line. And in the same time, Ryan Nobles, who was an outstanding stand-in for Kirsten Welker, who I also think is wonderful on Meet the Press, basically kind of got in the face of Senator Roger Marshall and asked him to cite a single example of where voter fraud has influenced an election.

51:04Scott Galloway:And I thought he – I watched it and I'm like, go. And of course, this guy just went into blather and –

51:12Kara Swisher:Doctors need to be trusted by that. I was like, what in the fuck is that? What are you talking about? He's a doctor.

51:17Scott Galloway:Pilots need to be. And it's like, OK, but there's no problem here. Planes crash. There is no no one has ever been able to provide evidence that a single election has been influenced, much less decided by voter fraud.

51:32Kara Swisher:This guy's been all over the TV, the Dr. Roger from Kansas, the senator, and he's doing the same song and dance everywhere. I don't know why. Maybe he's in a tough fight. I don't know. It's weird. he does this a lot. He's done this a lot.

51:45Scott Galloway:Well, I understand that the only way you can do good is to get elected. But at some point, they've got to recognize that, you know, this guy is coming, is becoming a lame traducan, as you would say. And at some point, they're going to show something resembling leadership. And I can't, I can't swear the calculus of a senator coming out and saying, Senator Kelly is an American hero.

52:06Kara Swisher:Exactly. I don't get it. It's the same thing when they, when Fox News was broadcasting from that American States thing, which looks like the Fyre Festival. And they're like, look at all the people. And I'm like, there's nobody behind you. Like, how do they do that? Peter Doocy, how did you manage to do that? Oh, everyone's having fun here and there's 26 people there. And it was so weird. I don't get it. Like, when are they going to give? When are they going to give? When do you think they're going to give on? Same thing with this guy. It's like, you know, don't believe your lion eyes kind of thing.

52:36Kara Swisher:I don't know.

52:36Scott Galloway:Anyways, I guess it's sort of a win for ABC and NBC News. And these programs still matter, despite the declining audiences, they are still really relevant. And specifically, it just strikes me at some point, senators who are elected to six-year terms, at some point are going to begin to understand that, okay, with the definition of quote-unquote leadership. My win is that Bill Maher was awarded the - Mark Twain Award. The Mark Twain Award. And I thought it was really fitting that it was at the Kennedy Center. But look, I have said this. Something I don't like about myself is I have been way too influenced by comments in social media, which I think are so fucking corrosive because they start influencing you to say this type of thing and not this type of thing.

53:31Scott Galloway:And I've tried really hard in the last couple of years to say, I'm going to say what I mean, mean what I say, and I don't care what the comments are. There are very few posts that get as much blowback as when I say the following, and I mean it. Bill Maher is a hero of mine. And I think if you were to take every political pundit and have at zero say, I don't know who the craziest right-wing person is, and on a hundred be the craziest left-wing person. If I had to identify someone who was exactly at 50, it would be Bill Maher. And evidence that he is a centrist is that everyone appears to hate the guy publicly.

54:08Scott Galloway:And then every podcast I go on, the hosts, when I follow up and say, is there anything I can do to help you? They ask me, can I introduce them to someone at Bill Maher? The guy has been in the business for 33 years. He is fearless. He is funny. And his contribution isn't defending the idea that people who disagree should be allowed in the same room. It's that the weirdest thing is that it's so remarkable. And today that is remarkable. And he didn't build an audience by telling people what they wanted to hear. He built one by telling everyone something they didn't want to hear. He literally pisses off everybody.

54:47Kara Swisher:Yeah, which is why he gets a blowback. I mean, he does. He does seek out like his earlier stuff on Islam and stuff like that. So he is who he is. And I do, I'm always fascinated by how much I get blowback on your behalf, which is interesting. Or why are you on that show when I go on? It's a really interesting discussion. And I don't lump him in with all the others who I do find somewhat heinous in that regard. And I agree. I think he deserved that. I think he's very funny. I don't always agree with him, that's for sure. But it really is. That's the point. Yeah, I don't find it. I don't know. He attracts an unusual amount of ire.

55:25Kara Swisher:He really does.

55:27Scott Galloway:You will get pushback on this. When I say he's a role model of mine, and there are a few, like when I graduated, I was trying to think, when I graduated from college, when I got my first bonus check, when I sold my first business, there are moments in your life that you remember professionally. One of those biggest moments for me was three or four years ago during COVID when Susan Bennett called me and said, we'd like you to be on Bill Maher because it's the only show my dad watches.

55:49Kara Swisher:Susan's a producer.

55:50Scott Galloway:She's a producer.

55:51Kara Swisher:Terrific producer.

55:52Scott Galloway:And I think the guy is fearless and he brings to light the notion that free speech isn't tested by popular opinions. It's tested by the people who piss you off. And he does that. And he's an equal opportunity agitator. And he was one of the last people in television willing to make both sides equally uncomfortable. I mean, he's really an independent voice. And I don't think his contribution will be remembered as changing minds. It was proving that you can disagree without deciding the other person is evil. And his legacy, although he's a great comedian, I don't think his legacy is comedy. It's defending the proposition that democracy requires conversation, not just conviction.

56:39Scott Galloway:And we have lost so much of that. And I sort of know him, but don't know him well. But the people he surrounds himself with, here's some things about Bill Maher. He has this big rant on how he doesn't have kids and doesn't married. Everyone around him has been working with him for 20 years. the woman in makeup, the guy who brings you to your COVID test, his producers, I think he's a very loyal man. I think he shows up. I think he works very hard. I think he's unafraid. I think he's a great role model for people who, like me, want to be centrist, distinct of the hate you get because you piss off everybody.

57:14I thought he's an outstanding recipient for the Mark Twain Prize.

57:19Scott Galloway:Anyways, my win is the unafraid, courageous believer in free speech that pisses off everybody and everybody wants to be on his show after 33 years, and that is Bill Maher.

57:32Kara Swisher:Good for you. Good for you. You still care about comments, Scott. You're never going to not care about comments. Never.

57:38Scott Galloway:Well, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others, Kara. It's really pathetic.

57:41Kara Swisher:It's not pathetic. You don't give yourself a hard time. It does get to you. It doesn't get to me as much as it gets to you, but it gets to me, too. I mean, I think it's okay to hurt, I have to tell you. Well, shaming is a very powerful feeling because until about 50 years ago, if you were shamed and expunged from the tribe, it meant you were going to starve or be eaten by a bear in 72 hours or less. Well, you're not going to get eaten by a bear. Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so. You're vulgar, but you're not getting eaten by a bear. But no, I agree with you. I think Bill deserved that award.

58:13Kara Swisher:And I know people, you know, we often disagree. We really do. but the kind of I mean I see listen if you don't like Bill Maher don't watch him I don't know what else to say that's my feeling it's like that's what I say to people and by the way you know people in my family one of my kids was like why are you going on his show and I'm like you know what it's none of your fucking business I am because I like going on it I enjoy the show so

58:36Scott Galloway:I'm going on I think July 29th I'm going to take Beata and I'm going to take both my sons and I never take them all to anything and I said this is important to me I want you to come with me

58:46Kara Swisher:Oh, okay. Good. Well, we're good. Anyway, good ones. Good ones for you. That was a good one. Can I do one more refill? And I don't want any, I just want to say, Scott Wiener is a friend of mine. And what happened to him in San Francisco last week was heinous. Like, I don't usually mind criticism around Israel. And I think it's really important for, and I don't think every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But what happened to him, and he has been a supporter of all manner of things in San Francisco, he was anti-Semitic, was really, truly, and strange. And that kind of, that really shouldn't, I feel terrible for Scott because he's been, you know, there's lots of things you could disagree with Scott on, but not what they were yelling at him about.

59:32Kara Swisher:And so it had a real tinge of real hatred. And that really repulsed me in a way that I usually am okay with some criticism of all manner of countries and stuff like that. And so just that cannot be tolerated by the Democrats. That cannot be tolerated, that kind of behavior. So I would just want to say that. But I feel bad for Scott, who's been a really hardworking public servant. Anyway. All right. So that's the show. So congratulations to Bill Maher. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

1:00:11Kara Swisher:Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this weekend on, I just spoke to Jim Bankop, the CEO of Vox Media, and Meredith Kopit-Levian, President and CEO of the New York Times at Cannes Lions, which was really fun. We talked about the ways they adapted to a changing media landscape and the effects of AI on Publishing. And it was a great session. And thanks to UTA for hosting us and keeping it quiet. Let's listen to a clip. The leverage is even the LLMs will need an information ecosystem with high quality, independently produced, verified information. If they don't have it, their products will not ultimately be good either.

1:00:51We all want to live in a society where quality information is available. And I believe they do too. You believe they do too. I think that these are information companies. These are information tools. And I think at a certain point for you to have a healthy, functioning democracy, you have to have high quality information. And people have to be able to identify the difference.

1:01:16Kara Swisher:This was a really good discussion. And we had a little testiness around a couple of things. But it was great. It was a really interesting discussion about media and where it's going. and Meredith, both Scott and I have huge regard for her, and that Jim Bankoff guy is nice too.

1:01:29Scott Galloway:So you want a little known fact about the CEO of the New York Times? No, let me tell you. She's got a dreamy boyfriend. He's a tall drink of lemonade. Have you met him?

1:01:38Kara Swisher:Yes, I have.

1:01:39Scott Galloway:I went up to her and I'm like, that dude's so handsome, and she looks around and she's like, I know.

1:01:44Kara Swisher:She's great.

1:01:45Scott Galloway:She's like literally like, I'll take my masculinity to go. Jesus Christ.

1:01:51Kara Swisher:I love everything about Meredith. She's a great executive. She's a great parent. She's really, she's all that in a bag of chips, as they say. And so lucky for him to have her. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

1:02:10Scott Galloway:Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman, and Christine Driscoll. Additional assistance from Kate Gallagher and Brad Sylvester. Ernie and Todd entered into this episode. Thanks also to Dubroz, Ms. Saveria, and Dan Chalon, the Shark Coroz, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back later in the week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, have a great rest of the week.