Debate Prep, Apple and Meta's Potential AI Partnership, and Guest Brené Brown

23:29All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we get back, look ahead to this week's presidential debate. And we'll speak to a friend of Pivot, Brene Brown.

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25:11Scott, we're back. Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump are set to face off on Thursday for the earliest presidential debate in modern history by like a lot. The debate hosted by CNN, moderated by Jake Tapa, Jake Tapa and Dana Bash. We the first time Biden and Trump have gone head to head or been in the same room since our last debate in October of 2020. I don't think they like each other. A Marist poll from last week shows a dead heat between the candidates. And actually, Biden was up a little bit. He's been going up a little bit, including in a Fox News poll, which is making President Trump, former President Trump lose his mind, which is not very far to go.

25:48So let's talk about strategery, Scott. Now, here you are going into this debate. I talked about it a little bit on the Chris Wall show this week. But what is the strategery? Just for some more background, RFK Jr. did not make the cut for the debate, falling short in ballot qualification and polling. He's making a lot of noise. The debate rules, just for people to know. And then I love your thoughts on this. No live audience, no props allowed on stage. Microphones will be muted when it's not a candidate's turn to speak. I believe they have two minutes. Biden won the coin toss and selected his podium position on the right side of the screen.

26:19Trump then chose to have the last word in closing statements. So what do we think? Give me a what Biden should... This is the question from Chris Wallace. I thought it was a good one. Does this setup help which one? If you were the marketing guy here figuring out sort of the optics of it, Which one do you think this set helps? Oh, it's total team Biden in terms of vantage. Trump is so quick and outrageous on his feet and so plays to the crowd and tickles people's censors and all that. Him constantly interrupting people. It just throws the other person off kilter. So them shutting off the mic is totally advantageous to Biden.

26:59Is it? There would be some crazy. I think Democrats tend to be a little bit more civil than maybe MAGA. people. He's not going to show up with a bunch of people who have accused. I mean, do you remember the bullshit? Yes. Remember Bill Clinton? So he creates a sideshow and a carnival, which throws the other person off their feet. And the strategy here is really simple. Okay. Let's talk about the economy. I wouldn't go to - Let me get, what is the one thing Biden should avoid and one thing he should lean into? And what is the one thing Trump should avoid and lean into? If I were Biden, I would stay away from the Trump court cases.

27:37I think that people will go there on their own. And I think he wants to talk about the economy and bodily autonomy and how he is actually taking action against immigration. I would go very, very almost conservative and hard right on immigration and say, now, if the Republicans would only help me solve the crisis at the border. And I would talk about the economy. I would talk about numbers. I would be very kind of adult, almost like an economist. And I would end the debate with the following. Awkward pause. My last question to our viewers tonight after thanking CNN is, do you have daughters? And I would just leave the air empty for a few seconds.

28:17Very good. I like it. But many people think he should not. You know how Reagan did that fantastic rejoinder, right? I'm not going to let my age take advantage. He's not witty like that. And so should he have a joke in his pocket, though, about his age if Trump goes? Because Trump's got some cognitive dingety-dongs happening constantly now. Yeah, I mean, he should have a couple. He should have prepackaged two or three. And when someone brings up age, you should come up with, you know, say, look, look, we're, you know, we're both probably consumers of catheters. I would make jokes that remind everybody that the guy across the stage from me is also really fucking old, folks.

28:55So, yeah, you hate us both, whatever, whatever you want to talk about. But him not having a hot mic. And if I were Trump, I would talk a lot about what's happened on universities when Democrats take over institutions and what's happened in democratically controlled cities. That's where I would focus if I were Trump. Crime and chaos, sort of the Nixon-y kind of thing. Well, the arguments they should make, and this is what media they should roll every day, is this is what happens when democratically controlled leadership takes over an institution. Look, it's what's happened at our elite universities.

29:28This is what happens when Democrats get control of a city. Even if it has a ton of money, this is what happens. Go downtown San Francisco. Is this what you want the country to be? I realize that's not fair. I realize you love San Francisco. that is just from a perception standpoint. You're coming with me there. Okay, yeah, go ahead. It's changed. But go ahead. I agree with you. I agree with you. I live there. It might be wonderful. I'm just talking pure perception. Yeah, I got it. People who've never been there for some reason think it's a hellscape right now, unfairly or fairly. And also, to be fair, like Portland and Seattle are really, I have been to those cities recently.

29:58They've changed a lot. They have. They have. I agree with you. So what are the things that, what should Trump not do? Because some people think he will be calmer when he can't be jacked up. That's the thing. And so he'll be, if you recall, the first debate with Biden, and this is a long time ago, he was, you know, cuckoo for cocoa puffs, really, you know, stand back and stand by, interruptive, crazy. And all Biden had to say is, come on, man. You know, he kept doing, and Biden sort of won that debate. The second one, it looked like he was drugged and calmer. So some people think no live audience, no props, microphones muted will make him into reasonable Trump.

30:37Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I would never advise. It's like Michael Jackson used to show up with one glove and grab his crotch. I don't think any amount of prep would have told him to do it. And yet it was genius at the time. You're like, OK, it works for him. I don't know how to advise Trump because every piece of advice I would have would be try and act more sane because that's people's fear around you. And try not to be all over the place. try and focus on, try and come across as people, you want to look at points of distinction and then press on those points of distinction. The reason Biden will, if Biden loses this election, it'll be because of the following.

31:15The people see him as too feeble to be commander in chief. That is the only reason he will lose. And so you want to press on that. And so Trump wants to come across as distinctly more robust and young. And part of that is cognitive capability. So if I was preparing Trump, I would say you need to have command of the issues. You need to come across as somewhat sane. You need to come across as youthful and vigorous, laugh, poke fun at yourself, and have real command of the data. You need to draw sharp relief between you and the old man. That's my advice. Yeah, the problem is, like everywhere he goes, he's missing words now.

31:52He's doing a lot of stuff, and obviously has a family history of this, but of dementia. But one of the things that I think is problematic. And I spoke to a lot of people in that CEO summit. Now, look, they're going to back Trump because it's good for them in tax cuts, let me just say. And someone who was there saying they thought he was crazy, they're still going to back him, right? He was losing words. He was going off on tangents. This was a crowd that was welcoming to him, this CEO group, the business roundtable, and was willing to overlook the insurrection kind of stuff for a tax cut. And I talked to a number of people who are like, whoa, like, whoa, like that kind of thing.

32:33So I think that's where he I don't know how much he has control over that or is willing to do that. I think one of the things he cannot do is talk about losing the election. That's whether that's a great point. He cannot. He cannot look backwards. But he can't get off of that. You stole the election. You stole the election. If he does that, it's a huge opportunity for Biden. And Biden needs to be ready to go and go, OK, 43 cases, zero credibility. Just X, Y, Z, what's the difference between every what's the difference between us and every other nation? We have people who concede elect, you know, Biden has to be ready to really like drive a train.

33:09I think Trump can't help that. I think it animates. You're probably right. And then the other thing he's saying, the last thing I'd say is he's all saying that Biden's getting a shot in the ass, which means Trump is getting a shot in the ass. Like everything he says, I'm like, oh, that's what you're doing. I mean, Trump looks like he's taking every drug in town. Like it feels like a Zempick. It looks like he's juicing. Biden needs to practice the age old adage about being interviewed. Don't answer the question they ask. Answer the question you want to ask. At some point, he needs to say the following.

33:38Trump threatened to try to ban TikTok and carve it up. We have actually banned it or investing it with a plan that will pass muster that makes sense. Biden constantly, you know, Trump talks about safety in the Middle East. We sent two aircraft carriers over there and we have so far sequestered this from becoming a more regional conflict. He needs to say, okay, Trump talks a big game, but we actually, you know, we have some overlap here. You agreed. You thought TikTok was a national threat. I want to give you credibility for it. We've actually done something about it. You talk a big game about being an ally to Israel.

34:13We're actually the real ally here. One of us has deployed an aircraft carrier there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I think one of the interesting things going into this, the money raising. Now, Trump is, they thought this would happen, but he's raised$141 million in May. Biden raised$85 million. He was way ahead, Biden. $53 million came in for about 24 hours after the hush money verdict, of course. He's really done very well by being a felon. There's also, I think that'll ultimately even out and depends on where they spend it. I don't know what else to say. I don't think there's going to be a big deficit between them.

34:47Trump VP's speculation, he's making a circus of it. He revealed this weekend he knows whose pick will be, although he hasn't told the person yet. The future VP candidate will most likely be at the debate, according to Trump. Current top contenders include Senators J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio, and Tim Scott, and North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum. I think I've settled on Burgum at this point. You know, he's managing to carry the water for him and seems not as nuts as the others. I think he doesn't like Marco Rubio. I think he thinks J.D. Vance will take attention from him. Tim Scott looks like a toady.

35:20So, so much so. So, I suspect it's Burgum. South Dakota Governor Kristi Noma appears to be out of the running. She indicated on Meet the Press over the weekend. She has not been formally headed. It's because Trump has a dog. Yeah. No, he doesn't have a dog. He doesn't. That makes sense. He doesn't have any pets. That makes sense. So just make a guess and then I'll ask you the last question about the Supreme Court's decision. I don't know. I think it's probably going to be Bergen. But just one last thing. If I were on the Trump team, I would hammer over and over. Just to be snarky, I would go 100 percent.

35:51I'd be like, well, President Harris. And he's like, you better get used to that. This guy's going to be dead. If he really wants to go gangster, he'd say the following. You're not voting for Joe Biden. You're voting for President Harris. Just wrap your head around that because she's deeply unpopular. Yeah, I think you're right. I hate to say it, but I think that would work really well. We'll see if he comes up with it. Meanwhile, we're still waiting for the Supreme Court's decision on the Trump immunity case. What in the world are they doing over there at the Supreme Court? The next batch of opinions will be released on Wednesday.

36:18They've got a lot to go and they've got a very short term to do it in. The day before the debates, we get a decision then. The immunity decision, I think they're probably like wrangling over it, right? I think Alito's been hurt, probably, with the flag situation in terms of power. But I suspect they're trying to come—I have this feeling that Amy Coney Barrett's just not going along with the boys at this point on this kind of thing. But who knows? She seems to have formed relationships with the other women on the court, which is interesting. What do you think of this? Not on abortion, obviously, but what do you think?

36:52Is this affected? I don't know. The thing you said that was sort of interesting is that what you just made an argument for was lifetime appointments. I think they should do what they do in Brazil. And the Supreme Court there has mandatory retirement age of 75. Oh, my God. Think about it. You have to leave when you're 75. what generally happens is, or what you hope happens, is that people just become apolitical and show a fidelity to the Constitution or the beliefs or what have you, and they're not going to be intimidated by anyone. I haven't seen that. I've always thought Justice Barrett, I don't know.

37:28I think that's wishful thinking that she's siding with. I know. I know. But lately she has been, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think she's gotten hanging around other people. And she's so smart. Like, let's be honest. I mean, godly or not, she's smart, sharp as a tack. Yeah, she's pretty little scholar. It'll be, I don't know. I just think she's probably with Judge Jackson, who's also, oh, Jesus, what a brain. I suspect that's the thing that appeals to her. Even religious gals who are brainy, love the brainy part more than anything, ultimately. I don't know. That's my wishful thinking, is that they're all hanging and squatting up or something.

38:07I don't know. We'll see. By the way, you said something that's starting to distract. So try and clear your mind in his first answer. Biden-Harris, Trump-Bergen, or Tapper-Bash. Who would you rather be president and vice president? Seriously. Dana Bash. Are you kidding? I love Dana Bash. I think Dana's fantastic. I think Jake is fantastic. I'm not exaggerating. Who would younger probably if if if and maybe i'm being sexist because i immediately thought of jake tapper as the president and dana is the number two but quite frankly i think they're both super impressive thoughtful people who know how to shake tapper for president if if they were on the ticket if they were on the ticket yeah uh that they got my vote that i thought for cuban i told you i'd vote for Cuba.

39:01Those two should be on stage. I want Cubes. Not asking the questions. I want Cubes to run. That's what I want. Just because I want to go. Yeah, because I just want to, you and I will be staying together in Lincoln Bedroom. It'll be nice. We'll cuddle. He'll be in the race for 2028. When he starts bragging about paying his taxes, he's clearly positioning himself for a run. And I hope he runs. Yeah, he's very articulate about all kinds of issues. Super smart, super impressive guy. Yeah, probably. There'll be a, what, 2028, unless Trump wins and ruins democracy, will be really interesting on both parties.

39:28It'll be really, it'll change here and maybe we'll all be a little better. Who knows? All right, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

39:43Brene Brown is the host of two Vox Media podcasts, Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Brene, welcome to Pivot and the Vox Media Podcast family. I'm so glad to be with y 'all. I've been listening and y 'all have recently been in the south of France. I wish I'd been there with you. Well, next year, next year, we'll all go together and we'll, we'll go get on Scott's Zodiac and ride around and everything. Oh my God, I'm so in. You know, Scott had said he was going to take me on it and also attack Meta Beach. And he ended up sort of just wandering up to the Pinterest beach there. So it was a less than.

40:15It was an accident. Yeah. Anyway, so let's start. So you took a break from podcasting for over a year and recently returned. So you said you returned in part because you missed the conversation. So talk about that because many people don't walk away from talking.

40:35Okay. Wow. We're just going right there. Yeah. I, you know, my mom died on Christmas morning, I guess six or seven months ago after a very shitty battle with dementia. And during that period of time, I noticed how susceptible and vulnerable I was to the influencer industrial complex online. When you have a parent with dementia and you're my age, you forget a song lyric and you're like, fuck, it's here, I'm next. And so I would be scrolling on Instagram and of course it knows exactly what I'm thinking about and what I'm doing. And it would say, you know, do you have a family member with dementia?

41:30Are you worried about it for yourself? One tablespoon of castor oil, you know, prevents dementia. And I just realized, even as a social scientist, how vulnerable I was to that. And then inevitably I'd be scrolling and I'd see myself. And it would be this nuanced conversation that was clipped down in a way that made me seem so certain and so sure about something that I almost couldn't stand seeing myself as a part of that. because I mean I think I think there is something on social media around advice giving that is so predatory

42:15and I just I needed a break I just needed to step away from it and I needed to I needed to step away from talking and it's interesting because I have I get asked to do podcasts all the time but now we don't do them if they include video if we don't have clip approval. Oh, smart. That's interesting. Well, this is like perfect. Scott, I got to bring you in right now. This is sort of Scott's area of discussion where he talks about this all the time, the vulnerability of this experience online. Scott? Well, I was actually going to go, I'll get to that, but I always described the two most seminal events in my life were birth and death, the birth of my sons and the death of my mother.

42:59I'm just curious, having lost your mother recently, And it sounds like that was not a, I don't want to call it a bad death, but an extended hard death for the people around her. How have you changed your approach to life? What has changed in terms of the way you see the world on a day-to-day basis, how you allocate your time and your approach to life since the death of your mother? yeah i mean it was a shit death it was a jagged edge death it was a death by a million pieces you know um i think even when she died i was shocked that she was never going to come back and be okay again yeah it's so final yeah it's weird and then it's and it creeps up on me in really different ways um like my son just graduated from high school and i was like oh my god my mom's going to love this picture.

43:51And I'm like, oh, God. I think, I don't know. I don't think it's a coincidence that that happened. And my first, the first book I bought, besides some like spiritual contemplations on grief, was the book 4 ,000 Weeks. Have y 'all know that book? I don't. Tell us about it. Oh, it's really interesting. He was a productivity writer, I think, for one of the Guardian or one of the UK newspapers. And he was the one saying, you know, you know, task, you know, box things up, do this, the Pomodoro method. He did all that. And then at some point he said, shit, we only have 4 ,000 weeks if we're lucky. And the more productive you are, the more bullshit you have to do.

44:45And this productivity thing is such, And this is where I loved his work. The productivity piece is such armor around protecting vulnerability and the fact that our time is finite. And we really have best case scenario, 4 ,000 weeks. And so I think I started doing a lot of work with a coach and my therapist around what's important to me and what's not, and my discernment button was broken. And so now I'm really trying to become very discerning about, and that's hard for me, firstborn, codenamed Sister Superior. Yeah, so you're being pleasing, right? You're pleasing. Oldest of four. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

45:34I'm going to trick. I actually do that with some people whenever I've decided to put their way to. I have a very big sense of death, as you know, constantly. And I tell a story, one person I was working with, I was like, I just don't want to talk to you anymore because you're taking up minutes of my life. I'm very aware of the minutes that negative things take on me or things I don't like, and I stop them because I'm very aware of the moments, which I think social media and online is one of them, like 100%, some of which I like, some of which I enjoy. And like videos, for example, I like a lot of funny videos.

46:11But most of the time, it's very difficult for people because so much rushes to fill. And one of the things you were talking about was the negative effects of social media. You do talk about that for years and particularly loneliness. And, you know, we've been hearing a lot of ideas lately how to reduce those harms. The Surgeon General proposed warning labels. New York Governor Kathy Hochul just signed a bill regulating social media algorithms for kids. I'm just curious, how do you, for yourself, and do you think any of these solutions? Because a lot of the time suck is social media and advice giving.

46:44And I agree with you on the predatory aspects of it. This is how you should live. Here's five areas that will make your life happier, et cetera. I mean, I think it's a multi-pronged predator because it's not just the time suck of scrolling. It's what we're ingesting knowingly and unknowingly while we're scrolling. And it's about talking about the biggest discernment button that we're up against. talking about breaking every sense of our connection to self in desperate pursuit of a counterfeit connection with others, that's social media. I mean, you want to lose yourself. It reminds me of like when I was really young and I was, you know, you'd be dating guys in college.

47:39They're like, what music do you, I mean, I'm going to date myself here, but like, who's your favorite band like boston oh mine too what's your favorite book dune more than a feeling yeah more oh my god yeah well boston is actually one of my favorite bands but you know and then somewhere down the line you're dating this guy for like three months and you're like shit man i don't like any of this shit we're doing i don't like your music i don't like where you like to eat but talking about losing the connection to who you are and your capacity for discernment Mm-hmm. Discernment, I like that. Scott?

48:12Do you, I'm just curious, you talk a lot about vulnerability. You have a huge social media following. Have you found that social media and your presence on social media has been accretive to your mental health or damaging to your mental health? And how have you responded in terms of your own approach to social media? Sounds like damaging. Oh, devastating. Yeah. Just devastating. I'm not built for this at all. I am. Okay, but you have 5 million followers on Instagram, so you have embraced it. So how do you modulate it and cope with it? Asking for a friend. Yeah, no, let me just tell you for sure.

48:52So I have 5 million followers on Instagram. If I pulled up my phone right now and went to my followers and scroll down to the bottom, I would get a note from Instagram that said somewhere between 100 and 300 of those are suspicious and should be deleted in mass. Like, I don't know who these people are. And if I had to do it over again, I would have done things so differently. I don't post on the feed anymore. I only post in stories because there's no comments. I paid a lot of money for a moderation team external. And I'll tell you why. I had to do that because I could not protect the mental health of the internal moderation team in our organization.

49:43I couldn't do it. I couldn't protect them. I mean, these were things like. So you're damaging the mental health of a bunch of people in the Philippines. Sorry, I couldn't resist. No, no. In fact, we were actually really careful about that. This was a U.S. company, very nuanced, but it only lasted, I think we were out of the contract now.

50:08It's not real. I mean, I'll tell you this. When I got into desktop, I have to be careful legally here because I'm still under, I got into desktop with Spotify publicly. You did. I did. And during that period of time, I probably received a hundred death threats. A hundred death threats? This is the death step you had, Scott. Scott has similar death threats. Yeah, no. And things like, I'm going to kill your children in front of you. And it was mostly like bald eagle avatar things. And because of the size of the followings that we have on the different platforms, we have liaisons that we work with.

50:51And, you know, when we called, they're just like, you are in the crosshairs of some very serious bots, probably Russian, and we can't stop it. And so I went off Twitter three or four years ago. Yeah, I did a year ago. Yeah, I went like way before the Elon Musk bullshit. I was just like, you know why? As part of the Spotify desktop, I did an interview with a First Amendment specialist from the ACLU. And in that interview, he called Twitter a dopamine casino, which I thought was like, yeah. We call it a Nazi porn bar, but go ahead. Or the sewage system of a sewer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's it. Are you comfortable talking?

51:37I had a dust-up with Spotify. I'm curious if you're comfortable and you don't have to bring it up again, but what the content or the crux of the dust-up was. I was caught in the – everyone thought it was actually like some kind of weird beef with me and Joe Rogan. But I was caught up in what is the responsibility of a platform around mis - and disinformation? We're the same person. I pulled Prop G off of, I had a close, just so you know, I'm very good at turning everything back to me. But I lost someone dear to me to COVID and I just couldn't handle their lack of fact checking around bringing on total quacks to say mRNA vaccines alter your DNA.

52:23And I thought, okay, I don't deny their rights to First Amendment, but I don't have to paint their fucking fence. And I pulled my podcast off. Anyways, your turn. No, that's what was happening. And my husband's a physician. And we buried friends during the pandemic. And I, look, sometimes today's conspiracy theory is the science of a decade later. Right. And sometimes it's just dangerous bullshit. That's right. And I wanted to understand, and I think it actually came down to, because there was no beef between me and any other podcast host. It just happened to be, you know, that happened to be happening a lot on certain podcasts where they'd have guests on.

53:11And then it just actually came down to a question of what is the responsibility of a podcast host to vet and let audience know this information has not been confirmed? This is, you know, I don't know what it is, but I am a huge First Amendment person. And you have First Amendment rights. And I have them too. Not to support economically a platform that is allowing misinformation to go viral. That's true. So interestingly, Renee, you just did a whole podcast series on AI, social media, and tech very much in Pivot Wheelhouse. It was something, I'd love to know what surprised you in these kind of, you talked to me about this.

53:52You said, I'm about to do this. And it was, I think it was just before you were doing it. So tell me what you learned from it. As someone who is not an expert by any means, but certainly understands the social, you you know, society part of it. I mean, if I did a qualitative analysis of pivot shows, the learnings would be the same as this eight. This was an eight episode heady deep dive. And the learnings would be the same. One, technology got there before policy, and it's dangerous. Two, the biggest concern is the alignment issue. Who's at the table when you're developing AI, it's just going to scale an equity at mass.

54:33It's not a machine that controls for disparity or it's not that. And so I think S. Craig Watkins, who has a joint appointment at UT Austin and MIT, has been studying AI for 20 years. And his question was probably one of the ones that really stuck in my mind, which is, who's at the table sitting with the computational mathematicians and the coders? Are the ethicists there? Are the people with lived experiences that you're going to impact there? Are the liberal arts people there? And so to me, I mean, I'm a big policy person. I'm a government person, actually. I trust that that's a system that works when done well and works better than nothing at all, regardless how it's done.

55:28But I think the technology is so far ahead of policy that everyone I talked to said at some point we're going to go, oh my God, did we really let this happen? And I'm with y 'all. I'm bullish on a lot of it. I love a lot of it. We have an AI internship program this summer to see where we can deploy generative learning and, you know, large language models. Like, I love it, and it's going to help, but it's going to hurt in the process if we don't get the right people at the table when it's being developed. As did original technologies of every sort. It's a really interesting thing. You know, all of them.

56:06Electricity always hurts the more vulnerable and then doesn't. I just have one other question, Renee. I love talking to you, by the way. And I know you and Scott have so much in common. Early in this episode, we discussed the upcoming presidential debate. This election has been called the anxiety elections. In a recent Yahoo, YouGov poll, 60 % of respondents described themselves are very or somewhat anxious about the upcoming presidential election. It's the same people. What do you tell people about that? Like, how do you, what is the coping mechanism given we have no choice? It's all, it's the same show again that we don't like, like in general.

56:43It's disturbing for one candidate, for many of us, it's, and the other side too, you know. They feel like, you know, I just Doug Burgum just called Biden a dictator, which seems insane to me. So people are using such strong terms and, you know, end of democracy, et cetera, et cetera. Your thoughts.

57:07I mean, I listen to Yael's podcast all the time. I don't think I've ever I don't know that I've ever actually missed an episode. I listen to it when I work. Yeah, I met you. Yeah, I really love it. And I learn a lot and I disagree with a shit ton. And I have a question for Scott before I get off. Okay, good. Fantastic. I was going to say, I know who you disagree with. No, I don't disagree. It's, I have more nuanced questions. All right, you'll get to ask that. But anxiety, general anxiety about this particular thing, which is coming, you know, it's coming at us so hard right now this week. This is the same thing about AI.

57:45and AI has been around for a long time, but I think the democratization of AI is what we're really talking about. We're talking about this election. We're building on a very cracked foundation. So by and large, I mean, I spend 90 % of my time in organizations working with leaders about what's happening. People are not okay. We are still not okay from the pandemic. We're still not okay from the long overdue, I don't even want to call it a racial reckoning. This is still happening. were not okay. And so if you take any crisis like the pandemic is going to expose fault lines in systems and in countries, our fault lines are exposed right now.

58:27We're holding on as hard as we, as tight as we can. And this thing is coming barreling toward us. I think people that are into the geopolitical scene, look at Europe right now as a very scary tale of what's happening, especially just the right-wing reaction to immigration primarily. We've got two candidates that have very low trust factors on both sides. And here's what I think is happening everywhere. If I just take one second.

59:06we are experiencing at the greatest level in my lifetime, an amazing lack of, a sense of lack of agency. And so people think that hope, I mean, I'm thinking about what you talk about, Scott, about the data you reference a lot about young men. So we think hope is an emotion. I'm hopeful. It's like a sense of possibility and potential, but hope is actually not an emotion. Hope is a cognitive behavioral process. And this is all C.R. Schneider's work. And hope is three pieces. It's goal, pathway, and agency. A person who scores very high on levels of hopefulness, A, has the capacity to set a goal.

59:55B, has a capacity to develop a pathway. The best way to understand the nuance of pathway research is a person with high levels of hope is not afraid of plan B, C, D, Q, or Z if plan A goes to shit. A pathway is someone who can really say, here's my goal. If this doesn't work out, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to try this next. And then the last part of hope, so you've got goal pathway, is agency. I believe in my capacity. to create change, to do something for myself. I've never seen the levels of hopelessness that I see right now in people. And I don't know if it's goal, like if people are just shrugging and saying, what difference does it make?

1:00:48I can't even contemplate a goal. I don't know if it's pathway, if people just don't see the plan B when the A goes to hell, or if it's agency, I don't know that I am capable of making change in my own life, much less the world. And so when we talk about the anxiety election, I think we're a collective group of folks with high levels of hopelessness, diminished agency, and I think that's what's scary for us. Does it matter? Like when people say, it doesn't matter, people are pissed off about, you know, people are pissed off about a certain Biden policy and there's plenty to be pissed off about.

1:01:37The bear hug thing, I'm over. And I mean, it's just, there's so many things to be upset about. But man, what a privileged position in my mind to say I'm not going to vote. You must be you must have some money tucked away. Yeah. You must not be fighting oppression every single day. What a privileged position to pick a moral superiority position and not vote. I can't even tell you. I actually threatened my son's. It was my son's first election. And my other one, I was like, you must vote or we will not be going to college. This is a guy coming after, this is guy weirdly taking credit for, you know, ending reproductive rights and women's autonomy of their bodies.

1:02:28Correct. Looking to go again and go harder. He's doubling down. Yeah. Okay. I have a question and I really want an answer that is I can get my head and heart around. Y 'all were talking about the Texas stock market and I think you just completely nailed the marketing that's going to go with that. I mean, it's got like Succeed from the Union written on it a little bit. Like, we're just going to become so independent of everything.

1:03:01Where can I find, Scott, an index that shows what a state does for business? Because you've been complimentary of how Texas has handled some business stuff around shareholder value and things like that. But we also rank 50th out of 50 in uninsured women. It's a hard state to live in. We have a grid where people froze to death here a couple of years ago. I mean, I unfortunately have a lot of firsthand knowledge because my husband's a pediatrician. Where's the index that doesn't separate what you do for shareholder value with how you actually treat the citizens of your state? I love this question.

1:03:50Scott? First of all, that's a really generous question because there's an assumption there that I would have some insight. I'm curious. I think you would. Okay. So I would argue, and I'd hate to defend Texas, that the best index is net migration. And Texas continues to draw more people despite all its problems. People with options can choose anyone in 50 states and more and more people are choosing Texas. Now, would I choose Texas to send my daughter to college if it wasn't a UT school? I don't know. But to your point, these indices are really dangerous because when you see the S &P and the NASDAQ at all-time highs, you're under the illusion that America is doing well.

1:04:31No, the NASDAQ and the NYC are just wealth indices for the top 1%. We need an index around obesity. We need an indices around self-harm. And those indices should be on CNBC every day. Nobody knows how many people have died of opioid overdoses or deaths. So despair in the last week. But everyone knows what the NASDAQ does every day. As a person who's not familiar with Texas, whose only impression of Texas is data I get, Texas has almost as many Fortune 500 companies as New York. A lot of the exterior metrics are very flashing green light for Texas. But I want to acknowledge I don't know Texas. I don't feel like I'm in a position to really evaluate some of the more thoughtful things that you're discussing.

1:05:15I would never live in a state where if my daughter, my wife, my girlfriend had to leave the state to seek terminated pregnancy. That, for me, is a deal killer in terms of moving to a state. But having said that, there's more U-Hauls going into Texas than leaving right now. But who's in them? Well, that's a fair question, but you're seeing the bottom line is the city. Houston's about to overtake Chicago is the third most populous city in the world. And real estate, I just think it's hard to ignore that on a lot of metrics, Texas is doing really well. But is there, have we not come to the place in our human development collectively where we can combine instruments of measurement?

1:06:05Yeah. You know what I mean? We need better metrics. The suicide rate and the self-esteem rate with the shareholder growth rate at the same time. Yeah, because I'm wondering, I mean, I'm wondering if the correlation is inverse. Brene, you live in Texas? Yes, she does. Fifth generation Texan. Okay, so the retort would be, Renee, you're a wealthy woman. You have a lot of influence. You have a lot of options. And every day you exercise the option to stay in Texas. So answer the question, why do you stay?

1:06:44I mean, proximity to family, number one. Mm-hmm. Fifth generation. Yeah, fifth generation. My people are here. Number two, and if I'm not with my people, it doesn't matter what's going on. But I think number two is Greg Abbott, Patrick, the folks running Texas right now are part of the Trump thing, too, for me. And I wrote about this in 2015. it's part of the white male power over the last stand of that. Not white male power. I'm raising a son, this amazing person, but it's a type of power specifically of power over, not power with and power to, but power over. And I think one of the reasons I stay is I don't believe, it's the same reason why you don't get to own America.

1:07:51You don't get to own patriotism. You don't get to own God, you know, and these folks don't get to own Texas. That's not who we are. We're as much Molly Ivins and Ann Richards as we are. These jack wagons, you know, and so, well, I mean, Texas back. Yeah. Yeah. But I think part of it is that, I mean, it's very difficult because governor Richards, enormous leader, huge. Great. But I will tell you, I think the progressives and the left terribly underestimate the level of organization and control of the right. I mean, we are gerrymandered to the hilt. All right. I 100 % agree with you that people need more agency.

1:08:40and I love what you said about, I generally believe we're siblings from another mother. I'm actually older than you. If there was one thing you could do, and I love what you said that government matters and you like programs. If there was one program you could implement, Magic Wand, to give agency back to young people, and I don't want to say especially young men, but all young people that would lift up boats, including young men, what would that one program be?

1:09:07Oh my God. Am I really ready for the shit that's going to come my way when I say this? Let me think about it for a second. Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, you know what?

1:09:20Mandatory national service for 18 to 20-year-olds. 100%. I love this woman. I see. I love this woman. I mean, I'm not talking about military service. I'm talking about old school. Anything. Health care, senior care. Yeah, all of it. Invest in our country. And part of the mandatory service would be, I mean, you have to understand, I have a really hard time. For 20-something years, I taught just PhD and master's students. I just taught my first undergrad class a couple of years ago. I did not realize the level of uncertainty avoidance in especially young men. the inability to neurobiologically and nervous system handle the just awkward looking people in the eye.

1:10:12I mean, we did one - Reading the room. Reading the room. Just like, you know, can I break up with my kids? Can we break up over text? Absolutely not. We're going to this funeral. Oh my God, but my friend is like crying. It's awkward. Yeah, you're going to look him in the eye and you're going to cry with him. And you're going to build the neural pathways to handle the discomfort of what it means to be in deep connection with other people. And that's what's missing. People, we really are biologically changing our capacity for connection because of our intolerance for discomfort. and love is hard and friendship is hard and roommates are hard and job interviews are hard and the anxiety people feel that keep them so avoidant that they stay at home that's also real.

1:11:11There's a reason romantic comedies are two hours not 15 minutes, right? This shit is hard. This shit is just the ability to look someone in the eye who's in pain and not diminish it and not try to make it better, but just be with people.

1:11:31And I don't, you know, people blame the kids. We're talking about a generation that we raised. That's correct. That is correct. This shit is real. Brene, I love you. I'm so glad to introduce you to for a lifelong love affair. Yeah. Yeah. My next podcast with Brene Brown. I can see it. Let's do it. Yeah, you can change him, Brene. You can take him. All right, Brene, be sure to check out her other Vox Meet. We're thrilled you're back, and we're thrilled you're back for the conversation. Ignore everything else, but your conversations are always amazing. I appreciate them myself. She did a great job for me when it was in Chicago.

1:12:07We had a wonderful conversation. You're just a national treasure. Unlocking us and dare to lead Brene Brown and Scott Galloway. I'm so glad to introduce you. Thanks, Renee. Bye, y 'all. Thanks. Scott, is she great or what? Yeah, I mean, well, one, I agree with absolutely everything she said, but also I respect and I think there's a lesson here on communication. I'm a huge fan of the pregnant verging on awkward pause. She does that. I love that. It's saying it's saying I take you seriously. I take the question seriously. And the response you're about to get is thoughtful. Yeah. And I didn't learn that until I was in my 40s around public speaking and just regular discourse that when someone asks you a question, it's not a prompt to just start making noise.

1:12:55That you should think about the question. And if you don't have an answer, if it's not an easy one, it's okay to take some time. And she does it to a dramatic effect. She's smart. She's doing it. I don't want to say it's performative, but I do the same. She does it to create a little bit of drama. Excellent person. Excellent person. Knock, knock. Who's there? Impatient cow. Impatient cow who? Where did that come from? It's a perfect joke. Impatience to jump in, et cetera. Can I tell you a Claire joke? What did the cookie say to the doctor? I know the answer. I like dad jokes, but go ahead. What?

1:13:36I feel crummy. When I asked my wife to say something that would make me feel bad and good at the same time, what did she say? What did she say? Your penis is bigger than your brother's. Oh, I took a nice cookie joke. I asked for it. I asked for it. I tell you a nice cookie joke. You stuck your chin out. Oh, damn it. All right. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

1:14:06There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025 are late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, and that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

1:14:55That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

1:15:03Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I'll go first. the Ten Commandments thing in Louisiana. I mean, what is, we spent years getting this shit out of classrooms. That's right. Like, they're fucking back, these people. They're like mold. I don't know what else to say. Look, you can be religious. God love you. You know what I mean? But keep it out of schools. That's the whole, like, I just can't believe they're doing this. It's going to lose as it did before. And then we're going to spend all our energy on something that has already been litigated, but they just refuse, which makes me know that they're coming back for gay marriage and everything else.

1:15:41Just like, what is wrong with you? Like, just let people be their own thing. If you're not Christian, it's offensive to you. You should respect other people's religions. That's the, I mean, honestly, I just, I don't know what to say. And a win, I think, getting Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird onto the Vox Media Podcast Network. I think that was great. They were at lunch with us in France, and also they threatened to overtake us. Megan was right there saying he's going to kick our ass, which was nice, typical. You left before the picture taking, but we took a lovely picture together. And so we're thrilled to have all these badass ladies at the box.

1:16:23And also, Andrea Iguodalo's there, and Pri, as usual, our best friend Pri. So just really nice to add. I'm glad Brene's back, and I'm thrilled Megan and Sue are also there. because great thinkers, also very different. They're not immediately going to go to left or right. They're just very thoughtful people. And world-class athletes. World-class, yeah, indeed. These are incredible, incredible athletes. Incredible. Anyway, those are my wins and fails. Nice. Okay, so I have a couple wins and one fail. The U.S. Senate passed a bipartisan bill, 88 to 2, that never happens, to accelerate the deployment of nuclear energy capacity by speeding permitting and creating new incentives for advanced nuclear reactor technologies.

1:17:09It will now go to Biden for his signature. He's expected to sign it. I don't understand. Nuclear was the worst managed brand in the world, and it's really hurt us. We started closing nuclear facilities in California. Germany decided the green movement that for some reason, I mean, this is, you got to pick your poison. There's no perfect energy, but this is an outstanding, fairly clean source of energy. And as evidenced by the fact that we're just going to have so much more appetite for energy, I think it's great. I love the, my favorite bumper sticker is more people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than in any nuclear power plant in America.

1:17:48And that's from the seventies. I don't know if you remember that or the eighties. Anyways, I'm a huge fan of nuclear. I just think it's, get on it. Another win, this is just, I just read this and I was just so blown away by how smart the guys are at Netflix. They've announced earlier this week two permanent Netflix house experience venues. Houses. Yeah, we talked about this. And they're creating 50 live experiences across the globe. They're going to try and emulate competitors a little bit. They've done Stranger Things pop-ups. Yeah, pop-ups. I think it's a great idea. It's a great idea. So if you think of strategy, you want scenario planning and, okay, this works or this doesn't work.

1:18:31Well, if it doesn't work, it's great marketing. And that's how they're positioning it. They're not saying we're trying to compete with Disney. We're opening parks. They're saying we're going to do some temporary experiences. Two, you want to look at pain points. And the existing pain points around Disney, a$10 billion EBITDA franchise is that, one, it's probably$5 ,000 or$10 ,000 for a family of four. And two, it's even more time expensive. You really need two or three days. is you go to a giant suburb of Orlando or Tokyo or Paris, and it's the seventh ring of hell, and you're trapped there for two days, spending five to 10 grand for a family of four.

1:19:02And they've said, okay, we can open in urban locations. We can buy now abandoned malls for pennies on the dollar or lease them, I should say. We can have Stranger Things. We can have Bridgerton. I mean, they're just gonna do, and if it doesn't work, it was good marketing, and then they let it fade to black and sign one and two year leases at great terms. And if it does work, they could end up with the same sort of flywheel that everyone talks about Disney. And if you think about Disney parks, when you think about the amount of EBIT that they spent off, and I would argue when you go to Disneyland, it's really not a ton different than if you went 20 years ago.

1:19:37No, it's not. It's kind of the same rides. The same lines are too long. The food, that's my big beef with Disney is the food. And they've been able to, in my opinion, capture unearned margin because of the modes. I just think this is so smart on behalf of Netflix. Anyways, Netflix House is strategically just a great win. And then my loss is I think Democrats, if we're going to try and if we're going to win this election, we need to have sober conversations with ourselves. And I think that essentially the jury that found Hunter Biden guilty was right. He was guilty. The jury that found Donald Trump guilty was right.

1:20:14He was guilty. But it was it was a misallocation. Neither of those cases should have been brought. The reason they were brought was one was an unpopular former president and one is an unpopular president's son. And I think that Democrats don't want to admit and they need to acknowledge that the case in New York was a disaster for us, both in terms of the polls, both in terms of fundraising. And I feel as if there's a lack of sober conversations around what the data says and what's working and what isn't working around the election. And so my general loss is that I get the sense that Democrats put hands over their, you know, hands over their ears and over their eyes and don't have honest conversation around what is really going to be required to win here.

1:20:58As opposed, you know, we're constantly looking for excuses for Biden and rationalizations as opposed to really being in a war room and saying, OK, this is what is actually going down and what has happened. And so it's more or less, I feel as if when I talk to Democrats, both in the White House and in the campaign, that they're not honest with themselves. They don't have a sober conversation around what the data reflects here. Anyways, the key to winning a war is you have to put yourself in the shoes of the enemy and empathize with them and be very honest about what the data says. And I think what happens with generals and what's happened with Putin and every general that loses a war is the incentives are to tell the general and the president what they want to hear.

1:21:42And I think that's going on here. I don't think Democrats have realized just what a terrible 90 days this has been for us. We have gone from out-raising, leading in all the swing states to now they are out-raising us and they have pulled ahead. We were not leading. We were not leading. But go ahead. In the swing states we were. No. By a lot. But go ahead. 90 days ago? Yeah. Okay. So anyways, my fail is that I don't think the, whatever you call it, the village elders of the Democratic Party. Yeah. I think we're in denial about what's going on here. Tough love is what you're saying. Tough love. It was data-driven love.

1:22:19We got to kill. We got to kill. We got to kill. Be killed. That's a great one. That's a great one. I agree with all of them. And you and I are going to have Bridgerton moment experience and we're going to dress up and do the menuette. It's going to be great. I got to think they have ethnically ambiguous people in corsets who just rip off their clothes and start fucking. I'd pay for that. I would pay for that. All right. On that note, on this note, we want to hear from you. Watch this season. It's so good. We want to hear from you. Send us your question. Penelope Featherington. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

1:22:50Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. What a good show. And I'm so glad to introduce you and Brene Brown. Read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd Engine did this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Saverio. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod.

1:23:22We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. What is a key attribute of someone who is successful? They feel as if they have a sense of agency.