Disney's Victory Lap, Online Privacy, and Guest Ruth Ben-Ghiat

25:03What a waste of money. Peltz's company, Tryant Partners, said it was disappointed with the outcome, but proud of the impact we had in refocusing this company on value creation and good governance. Fine, you get that. And they made some money too, I think a couple hundred million dollars. You've been talking about this proxy battle for months. Does he come back for another fight? As I said, he made$300 million, a 40 % return. So good for him. So he wins when he loses. This is a win for Bob Iger, but I'm not sure he comes out unscathed. And of course, there's the succession plan. He said, is the board's number one priority, and that's being treated with a sense of urgency.

25:35They have brought some people on the board who are good at that, but his contract ends in 2026. So what should happen here? It should be, what should it prioritize? He could have another attack by an activist. At some point, he announced an expansion of its Magic Kingdom Park in Florida last week, part of a 10-year,$60 billion investments in Parks Cruises and Experiences. He settled with Ron DeSantis. he seems to have cleaned up some of the messes. So thoughts? Well, so again, around predictions in November of 23, one of my three stock picks was Disney. It's just undervalued. And I like Bob, he's a good manager on Prop G, on the Prop G pod two weeks ago, I predicted that Nelson would not get a board seat.

26:17And it was obvious. And the reason why is that the CEO and his proxy solicitor have more insight into what shareholders are thinking. And very rarely does a CEO let a shareholder vote go to a vote if they're not going to win. So just some personal experience here as a chance for me to flex and talk about me, which I know you're missing. I can't wait. So when I raised$600 million, bought 70 % of the New York Times and said, we're filing a 13D and we want four board seats. Companies under managed needs to divest things, including the 17 % of the Boston Red Sox, which made no fucking sense. Anyways, Janet Robinson, the CEO at the time, they showed up to negotiate and they offered us one board seat.

27:02And I took my capital partner. We kept running back and forth in the meeting. And I said, ask for all four. They're dead. They wouldn't be negotiating unless they knew they were fucked because they know their shareholders better than we do. And the only reason they're here is because they know they're going to lose at the annual meeting. And so they offered. You'll love this, Garrett. They offered two board seats as long as I was not one of them. Of course. They did not want me on the board. And my capital partner said, we'll do two, but Scott has to be one of them. But the moment, if Bob, it doesn't go to the annual meeting unless the incumbents know they're going to win.

27:41And the moment it was clear there wasn't going to be a settlement, it was clear that he wasn't going to get the seat. And it was an overwhelming victory for the incumbents. And it's very straightforward what happens here. If the stock goes up, he's fine. It's gone up. Well, yeah, it's about 20 or 30 % year to date. So, so far. But it's still, if the stock goes down, Bob is going to announce a succession plan sooner rather than later. And he's going to go give Nelson, if Nelson still wants it, a seat. If the stock goes up, Nelson wins. Bob's fine. Rides off into the sunset. It's all about what the stock does the next nine months.

28:20Right, nine months. So your thoughts, where is it going to go? Look, I think Disney is going to be one of the consolidators as opposed to the consolidates in the streaming market, which sets the multiple. That's the growth business. That's the future. In addition, they're sitting on top of this amazing business that doesn't get the credit it deserves called the Parks. They really are singular. True, you have Universal for the teens. You pointed that out to me. I like that analogy. And here's the thing. Netflix and Google can't build these parks, so they're not interested in it. These are decades-long investments, unbelievable experience.

28:55You have to be part of it. If you have kids with Moana and live-action Moana, Frozen 4, 5, whatever the hell they're making. And there's a great flywheel. You can bet there's going to be all sorts of Frozen rides, right? So the IP here is unprecedented. They're going to have a nice niche and family around streaming. They have the cash cow with the parks. And it's trading at a 10-year low. They've had some misses. I mean, Wish didn't do very well. They've still got the Frozen juggernaut. They've got Moana. They've got a lot of stuff. But some of the stuff doesn't do well. I know they've had a series of movies that haven't done that well, but he's got to get back to entertaining.

29:34The thing that irritated me about Peltz was he didn't like Black Panther. He said it was too woke. What an amazing movie. And it was an enormous hit. What an idiot. That's a distraction. What a frigging idiot. I know, but he's an idiot. Just when it comes out of his mouth, I want to like hush it up. Well, I don't know if I told you this, but my prostateitis has been flaring up and it's clearly DEI. I mean, it's clearly like, it's clearly DEI's fault. What did someone blame DEI on? It was something funny. Something happened in there. Oh, the earthquake in New York. They're like, it must have been DEI.

30:03No, it's clearly DEI. I love that. Anyway, but what is his biggest challenge? I'd like to know what you think his biggest challenge is. Look, Bob's - Succession. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of these guys get, okay, so you don't make, they call him the leader. And here's the thing. He's not the leader. You can't run a company of this size and complexity when one person is in charge with leading it. His job, his job is to create an environment where there's great leadership across all the divisions and an atmosphere of success and innovation. So he's about creating an environment. And it's not easy to create an environment when, quite frankly, as nice as he is, you're seen as someone who keeps executing the people who get near the Iron Throne.

30:51Really good CEOs in board meetings. I love the succession strategy we do once a year with the CEO. And you can always tell who's a good CEO or one of the ways is they come in and they're really thoughtful about giving the bench play time in the board meeting. And then you have other CEOs who want to make it clear that there's me and everybody else. And without me, this thing doesn't work. That's when you know you got to start thinking about finding another CEO. And unfortunately, some of the most famous CEOs in the world, they don't even realize it, have a habit of executing anyone who gets near the Iron Throne.

31:26He has not done a great job instilling confidence in fostering and cultivating leadership. So on a cultural level, that's number one. But most importantly, he's going to make the right moves about the parks. They know how to run that business in their sleep, I think. And the key here will be moving the streaming platform, Disney Plus and Hulu, to profitability while maintaining growth. Which he talks about, which he's been talking about rather confidently, I've noticed, in his utterances. He's been talking about making it quite profitable, doing a lot of things they wouldn't have done before. The reason why it'll be profitable is that for the first time in the history of this company, in two years they haven't raised their content budget, and that is Netflix, while they have also raised prices.

32:10So Netflix has given cloud cover for a rationalization in the sector such that Disney Plus and HBO can raise their fees without raising their content budgets. This whole market is rationalizing, which is good for Disney. Although they've got to sort of get a little bit heftier. They have all the kids stuff, but Netflix is just killing it with their shows. I have to say, all the Netflix shows right now. It's brute force. They just have so much. Well, they're also kind of good. There's a real mix. I'm going to watch this. I was noticing what I was watching, what I had downloaded. And there's another one called Scoop.

32:43It's about Prince Andrew. It's like it hits the gentleman was kind of good. You know, although I didn't keep watching it. Interesting. They have One Day, which is doing great. I love it. I know. They've got all kinds of things that are doing really well. I'm just saying, I watch a lot of Disney because my kids do, but I don't find a lot there that I want to watch myself, and I would. But Netflix really is, they've got to sort of have something for me, Kara Swisher, and Netflix always does. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, Congress makes a big move toward regulating online privacy.

33:16and will speak with friend of Pivot, Ruth Ben-Guiat, about Donald Trump and dictators. They go together.

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34:46And you can take him anywhere. Why'd you invite him? And we are out of time. Are you really cutting me off? Uncrustables are the best part of the sandwich. Sorry, Crust.

35:01Scott, we're back. Congress appears to be closer than ever to passing national online privacy protections. House and Senate subcommittee leaders from both sides of the aisle unveiled a proposal on Sunday, meaning they're cooperating for legislation that gives consumers the rights to control how tech companies use their personal data. The American Privacy Rights Act would limit the types of data companies can gather, allowing users to opt out of targeted ads and permit people to sue bad actors for violating their privacy. This would be a big thing. One thing the bill doesn't do, prohibit companies from targeting minors with ads.

35:31I wish that did that. A lot of states have their own online privacy laws. We'll see what happens to the national standard. Of course, the tech companies will push back. It's unclear whether it's going to get passed because they've got a limited amount of time. What do you think? What do you think? It's with Maria Cantwell as one of the pushers on the Senate side. I mean, it feels better. I think you know more about this, although I want to come back. I do have a story about Senator Cantwell. Oh, OK. Well, you know, this is, look, here's the problem with a lot of the stuff they're doing is they met.

36:01I've seen a lot of criticisms of this. I've seen a lot of positives. You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, right? That we have to put a stake in the sand to add privacy laws. It does a lot of things. It doesn't do, I would definitely add prohibiting companies from targeting minors with ads. We do it on television in certain ways. And they can see ads, but like, remember there are cartoons with cigarette companies. They should be much more attuned to what's happening, especially because there's such a movement going on right now about that. So I think it's a good time to do that. And, you know, the companies will scream about innovation and hindering them.

36:37But this is sort of the baseline, it seems to me, this privacy bill. It's the baseline of anything else. And they should pass it as an act of symbolism to do so. And I don't think it damages anything. You know, again, that's always the complaint of tech companies. I don't think tech companies should resist this happening. And probably it's sprawling. There's a lot through. There's a lot here on it. And so we'll see what people think and the reaction it has. But it's big. It's a big bill. But opting out of data practices and targeted advertising and also being able to sue them seems to me table stakes.

37:19What do you think? More importantly, back to me, when I first moved to New York, I literally left tech, sold my house, got divorced. like moved to New York without a single friend. I even said to my ex, who I'm still close with, I said, you can have all our friends. I just want to change my life. And I moved to New York and I fell into this group of really interesting people. And one of my friends, a woman named Ann Maffay and this other guy, Boykin Curry, all these sort of like super smart culture, like interesting people. And because I was, I think 34, 36 at the time and single, but had been married, which meant I could actually commit to something, I was the ultimate setup.

38:03Everyone was trying to set me up. And I had dinner with a woman. This is dating. I had dinner with a woman I think you know or knew. Yeah. Rob Glazer's wife, ex-wife, just like plucky, young, really nice, attractive, like spark plug. And she said, I have the perfect woman for you. She's smart. She's good looking, da-da-da. And I said, great. And she said, she's going to be in town. Are you comfortable dating high-profile women? I'm like, well, what does that mean? She goes, well, her name is, she's running for Senate and her name's Maria Cantwell. And first off, I think Senate, it never happened.

38:40She was an executive in a tech executive. Yeah, his coming real networks. And I asked some questions about her and it ends up, and I said, and I said, there was one feature, of course, me being a thoughtful person. And she said, I said, I'm not interested. And she said, why not? And I said, I didn't get divorced to date women who are older than me. Oh, no. I want younger. How much older? Like six months? She's like six years older than me. But I said, I want to date much younger women who have terrible relationships with their father. Those are my two criteria, Kira. Oh, my God. Those are my two criteria.

39:11Jesus. Anyways, so I could have been a senator's husband, but I told her I also couldn't date her because I was, I didn't want that relationship to come in between my relationship with or my relationships with Patty Stonecipher and Emily Rodakowski. I thought they just would have been too hurt. It just would have put a strain on those budding relationships. Oh, God. These fake relationships are so creepy but funny on the end. In any case. I could have been a senator's husband. I could have been the biggest problem her staff had to deal with. God, you would have been. Right? She's terrific. I would have been like, who is the secretary of homelands?

39:46That woman from New Jersey whose husband was a wife job. Yeah, he would have said, oh, you should have had to be apologizing. I could have been Billy Carter. Yeah, or Mnuchin's wife. Remember, she was like posing with dollar bills and stuff like that. She's crazy. He is crazy. That matches. Yeah. Like, I would have been, I would have really stood. I would have been the bad peanut butter to her chocolate. Right. Because she's sane and attractive and nice. And I would have been, the staff would have, there would have been people just to manage me. Okay, moving away from your dating life. Here's why it's important.

40:13Da-da. It would make privacy a consumer right and put people in control of their data. That is really at the heart of it. And, you know, we have not had a comprehensive national law on this, and we have to. It is a signal that we care about this. It also preserves a lot of the stuff that's been happening in states, especially California, which has been out front of this. There's such a patchwork of state laws. That's one of the issues. and to be able to sue these companies for violations is really important. It stays away from the free speech part and it reigns in, you can sue them for this. This is the kind of stuff I've been talking about.

40:52Go to their pocketbook. If Facebook is gonna dominate digital advertising, you should have the same rights that you have to sue people. And so that's one of the things. And just a comprehensive privacy bill says we care about this issue. Now, again, the people who don't like it and think it's too thin, people who are against it saying, how dare you? This is a baked industry right now, digital advertising. It deserves a piece of legislation. So we'll see where it goes. I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. They're really busy with other important issues. I'm going to get a call from Maria Cantwell now and say, I'm going to have a restraining order.

41:29Do you think she's still thinking about me? No, I'm going to see her soon. What could have happened? What could have happened? I used to talk to her all the time when she was at Real. It was interesting. I love her. I think she's so good on the issues. She tried to insert$15 minimum wage into the Recovery Act. And of course, you know, we can give seniors a$90 billion increase in Social Security. She probably doesn't get her due of the amount of stuff she does. She's a very serious. She's one of our few elected representatives who just shows up and does the fucking work. Yeah, she's a business person too.

41:59My favorite recent, like posing for the TikTok cameras and trying to, you know, in a mad dash for an appointment to the Trump cabinet that will never happen is Representative Jim Jordan has sent letters to all the biggest advertisers demanding that they answer why they aren't advertising on true social. I mean, that's what our representatives are doing. Why are you advertising on platforms where there's no people that fit my political values? Anyways, a shout out to Senator Cantwell. I think she's served the country really well. Yeah, she is. She is. She's a serious-minded senator, and she was a really lovely person to talk to back in the day, in the early Internet days.

42:37I really enjoyed her. Anyway, we've got to get to our friend of Pivot.

42:47Ruth Ben-Ghiat is a professor of history at NYU and author of Strong Men, Mussolini to the Present. She also writes the substack Lucid, which focuses on abuses of power and threats democracy. Ruth, welcome. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. So we want to talk dictators. I want to start with something you posted on X last week after Donald Trump shared violent imagery of Joe Biden on True Social. You wrote, wake up people. This is an emergency. A lot of people have concerns about that imagery. But what was it specifically that made you sound the alarm here? You've been doing it for a while, so I'm not so sure that's the newest thing in the world for you.

43:21But talk about why that bothered you in particular, of the many things that could bother you around Donald Trump. Yeah. So it's about, you know, because I feel like Donald Trump has been waging and his GOP enablers have been waging a whole campaign to delegitimize all of our democratic institutions. And in particular, you know, attacking Joe Biden. This was an image which showed Joe Biden. It was a, you know, a sticker on the back of a pickup as though he were a hostage, kidnapped. And if you study coups, a third of my book, Strongman, is about coups and authoritarian takeovers. What is this showing?

44:06It's showing an outcome of a political situation where Biden has met a bad end, where he's somehow been overthrown and ended up tied up. And this is being, you know, this is being depicted as something positive. And so it's continuing the coup. And it's just it's it's extremely dangerous for obvious reasons. And I feel like this is normalizing. This is allowing people. Which is the point, right? I mean, you called it, you said Trump's repeated elevation of dictators as models of leadership should be understood as part of a re-education strategy. Now, one thing he does is this is not new. He did that with CNN, if you remember him punching CNN.

44:48This was years ago. He did one that I wrote a column about when he was, not just, you know, stand by and stand, whatever the heck he said. He does it a lot. It's not a new, fresh thing. But you're calling it a re-education strategy that's been ongoing, right, that it hasn't stopped the coup. And he continues to do that. Explain why. Because he says he's joking. He says he's kidding. He's this is just him that this is his brand of humor such that it's not funny. But still talk about the re-education part of it. Yeah, it's interesting what he's been doing. And this is since the fascists, Mussolini and Hitler.

45:27You've got to re-educate people to see violence in a positive way and even make it into something patriotic and even morally righteous. And Trump has been using his rallies since 2015. And this was part of my report for the January 6th committee. He's been just over and over saying like, oh, in the good old days, we used to be able to punch, you know, protesters. So there's that vector. And then he's been also elevating dictators, like doesn't matter, you know, North Korea, China, whatever they are, communist, fascist, as positive models of leadership. Orban, he recently met with Viktor Orban from Hungary.

46:11Go ahead. Yeah. And so Orban, what does he say? I take seriously what he says. And he says that, you know, Orban's so great, he's so strong because he says this is how it's going to be and everybody just accepts it. So he's telling us what he's telling Americans, his followers, that this is a positive model. So if you take the violence as a way of moving history forward, which was January 6th, and you take the positive praise for these murderous dictators, you get a re-education strategy because he saturated the media environment for now many years over and over and over again. It's nice to meet you, Professor.

46:52I don't think we've met before. So we spent a lot of time talking about what a danger Trump is and how wrong and really anti-American a lot of his activities, much less his rhetoric are. But he was elected by the U.S. and he continues to poll really well, despite all of these things that are horrific to everyone on this podcast. What is it about the atmospherics in the U.S. that has led the populace to support this individual who we all agree does not acquit himself as we would want someone who wants to be the president? What's happened in America? What's changed here? That's a great question.

47:35And there are patterns to these things. and the research for my book, when there's been a perception that there's been too much social progress and certain people are losing out, it could be conservative elites who are worried about losing their privileges. It could be people thinking there's too much gender emancipation, too much racial emancipation. You get a kind of counter-revolution. That's a big word, or you get a backlash. And that's when somebody like a Donald Trump is appealing. But a Donald Trump also models himself for that environment. And the thing about these strongmen is that they're highly sensitive to, they read the marketplace and they understand what is wanted and they model themselves.

48:28They will be whatever they need to be to get to power because they have no morals. They're just about getting control. So Donald Trump comes up and he was the perfect person as the anti-Obama. And he was the male brute. So he addressed the people who felt that women had too much power, same-sex marriages were taking over, all of the racial stuff. And so that's what he did. And he also told these people that he loved them, that they were the forgotten. And so there's a sense that he's not just going to represent them. He's going to protect them and take care of them. A daddy, a big daddy. He's daddy.

49:09He's big daddy and he's remained big daddy. And once they bond to him and they feel protected, but they're also protective of him because he's also the victim. And Mussolini was the victim. Erdogan's the victim. They all do this. And it's highly effective, this manipulation of emotions. Scott, you write about masculinity and emotions. And Trump is the latest example. of somebody who's extremely skilled at using this? First off, Professor, I think that's such an important point because I've been thinking a lot about Roe recently, and I don't think people zero in on some of the things you're talking about to really understand, and I would just want to double-click on it.

49:51My sense is you talk about them wanting to return to an era where they were more comfortable, and I think it's more specific than that. Just as young men have fallen further faster than any group in America, the ascent globally of women over the last 30 years is unprecedented. They've doubled their elected positions in parliaments. There are now more women globally enrolled in tertiary education than men. And I think the extreme of any religion is really uncomfortable and wants these uppity women to sit down. And I think that's what Roe is. I don't think it's about birth. It's about taking power back.

50:25Isn't it specifically about telling very conservative sects of religious extremists who have disproportionate power and, unfortunately, young men who feel shunned by women that I'm going to take power back from women? Oh, totally. And who better than a repeated, you know, abuser? Somebody who boasts about, you know, putting women in their place. And And this was part of his marketing strategy from the very beginning. And that's why when the Access Hollywood stuff came out, I knew that it would actually help him because, you know, these are the people I study. It was horrible to write the book and be in their heads.

51:05You know, Mussolini was a serial rapist and many others, Gaddafi as well. So this is part of their glamour. And until we wean ourselves from this kind of toxic, you know, idea that this brute force, this ideal of masculinity is glamorous and desirable, we're going to be susceptible to these Donald Trumps. So can you ask the similarities? Can I pick up on that between Trump and some of these classic dictators? I did not know that about Mussolini for your book. And also how they shaped them themselves. Because I just interviewed Tim Ryback about his book Takeover, which is the six months, you know, there was touch and go for Hitler there, whether he was going to make it.

51:49And he adapted himself. He removed himself from crazy for enough time to convince them all the different constituencies that he needed to convince on the left and the right to finally appoint him chancellor, which gave him the opportunity to become more. So talk a little bit of the similarities when you're talking about these various dictators and the differences. Are there differences also? Yeah, the outcomes are different. So, you know, we're not gonna, whatever happens, it's not gonna be a Hitlerian one-party state or a North Korean one-party state. But the similarities are that they, These people are highly sophisticated at communication.

52:34And whatever the era they're in, they use the latest tools of communication to forge a direct and unmediated bond with their followers. So Mussolini, you know, he was gesticulating and he started in the age of silent cinema, used newsreels. Now Hitler, of course, he had the radio and he ranted. And the Nazis invested in like state-of-the-art audio technology so that when he had rallies, his voice would reverberate in ways that made him feel, seem more godly because that's part of the personality cult. So they all do personality cults, which it's so interesting. The rules have not changed for 100 years.

53:15You have to be a man of the people. So you're relatable. And certainly Trump is. But you have to be the man above all other men, the man who gets away with it. And that's the rogue glamour. So they all use this. And so Modi used holograms when he ran initially for office so he could be everywhere and nowhere like a god. Berlusconi, who owned TV networks, used satellite TV to be everywhere. And Trump used Twitter. So that's one thing they do. They have these bonds that people feel they're speaking directly and only to them, which hasn't changed for 100 years. If you're advising the White House, how would you match this?

53:57Because Biden's certainly not that. Yeah, I think in general, we can learn from autocrats to make more use of emotion in politics. There's one of the things that autocrats do really well is create these tribes and these communities and they make people feel cared for. Now, it's bogus. Of course, they're just really trying to manipulate them. Trump doesn't care. You know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I did an interview and I told I said that Trump doesn't care if you live or die. And people got upset. But that's just how it is. But they seem to care about people. So Democrats in general around the world can make more use of emotion, of joy, of hope, of love.

54:43And Biden does this in his own quiet way, but it'd be ideal if it's somebody who is a more charismatic, energetic vehicle for that kind of emotion. Is there someone like that? Is there someone like that? Um, I'm, I'm not sure. I mean, I'm a big fan of Pete Buttigieg as a communicator. Um, and he's, he's been, he's got a restrained personality, but he's able to talk, he goes on Fox and he's liked on Fox. He's a very, very, he's a great asset as a communicator. Um, and he has everything I think, um, as a communicator and he could develop in this direction, uh, if given the space. So what worries you the most about a Trump second term?

55:33What worries me the most about Trump's second term is that he has been very clear about his intent to have an American version of fascism. Now, that's, again, that's not going to be a one party state, but he wants to turn the U.S., you know, the military if he could, but certainly law enforcement to repress large numbers of Americans to deport, you know, millions. and he would stop at nothing to try and gain total control of the United States. And that's what authoritarianism is. At its very essence, it's the executive trying to, you know, overwhelm the other branches of government so that they can be safe and be never prosecuted again.

56:25Can he actually do it? We're such a big and diverse country with so many. Like, you can't imagine California going along. There's elements in every state like this. But how do you manage to do that? I mean, Germany was a very particular, smaller country. So is Italy. So is Turkey in a way, you know, although it's much more diverse. Turkey's more diverse with Erdogan. How do you, and certainly Modi has done that, but has limits, has had limits in terms of what he can do. So how do you look at that? Is that a possibility? And we've all seen the science fiction about it. We've all seen those apocalyptic movies where that happens.

57:04Yeah. I mean, Hitler, Mussolini is actually a better example or somebody like an Orban versus Hitler, because today things often happen gradually. But Trump is, you know, and Project 2025 is about, you know, having an accelerated transformation of government using executive orders, perhaps the Insurrection Act. And, you know, we know there are many things that he can do. The main thing that definitely would happen because it happened during the first Trump administration is that Trump is not interested in governance. He's interested in using public office for private benefit. And, you know, in his first administration, he spent one out of every three days not governing at the White House, but visiting Trump branded properties.

57:54And so this kind of enrichment for you and your family and cronies, that definitely would go on. He's already said, you know, he's boasting that he accepted money during his first presidency from the Chinese for, quote, services. And I'm still trying to get somebody to ask him what those services were. So the White House would be for sale. Our intelligence would be for sale. Perhaps it already has been, you know, keeping documents in his bathroom. All of this lack of accountability and erasure of public versus private, that's the strongman thing. They don't accept any erasure, any divide between public and private.

58:35It's all theirs. And it's all theirs to sell and profit from. Professor, my sense is that the media has a difficult time trying to figure out the approach to covering Trump. Do you have any thoughts around where the media has succeeded or not succeeded and the role the media plays in trying to figure out how to cover this guy? It's a little like Frederick Birchall in the New York Times reporter who sort of normalized Hitler for a long time. Oh, yeah. And Mussolini actually had a column, a syndicated column, because the anti-communist Baron Hearst was his backer that reached a thousand newspapers for eight years in the United States.

59:24So talk about normalizing. I think, you know, we know that the press has been it was working with an outdated playbook, a playbook that worked in terms of two if you had two candidates and two parties that were that still bought into democracy. The problem is they've been slow to understand how to cover our situation where we're a bipartisan republic, but one of our parties no longer is in democracy. I see the GOP as an autocratic party. And if it were a sovereign entity, its foreign policy would be pro-autocratic, pro-Putin, pro-Orban. That's a reality. And they've struggled. So that's where they still do the both sides-ism.

1:00:11But it's a little more subtle because, for example, Meet the Press, which has a bipartisan viewership. Kristen Welker has done very well actually bringing Republican guests on and probing them. And the audience there are Republicans who don't want to see perhaps a Republican aggressively bashed, but will listen to a careful probing of their hypocrisies, of their inconsistencies. So it's just you can think that this more gentle approach is perhaps not appropriate for our emergency, but it depends what your aim is. So what should they be doing? I think that the headline writers are there a lot of, you know, there's a lot of headlines that are unhelpful, for example, even in The Washington Post and certainly in The New York Times.

1:01:08Also, the placement of important stories about Trump's corruption. Often, the New York Times will put it on page, you know, A13. I think that if we want to prioritize saving our democracy, we have to have a different kind of placement of these big stories. Also, to show the American public that people are being held accountable when January 6, You know, insurgents are sentenced when the DOJ is doing things to restore faith in institutions because bashing the press is a popular habit, but it's a symptom also of this success of the right of making people lose faith in all institutions. Right, absolutely.

1:01:55I think one of the issues is Trump and his cronies, especially Steve Bannon, flood the zone with crazy all the time. And so you get exhausted, including January 6th. And so you're like, oh, I'm tired of listening to it kind of thing. Anyway, it's a really important book. There's a lot of really important books out these days in this area. Ruth Ben-Ghiott, her substact is called Lucid and her book is Strong Men, Mussolini to the Present. Little light reading for you. Ruth, thank you so much. Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, Professor. All right, Scott, one more quick break. That was a happy topic.

1:02:30And we'll be back for Wins and Fails.

1:02:38There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, our late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV. Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

1:03:27That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

1:03:36Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Why don't you go first? Mine are long and you cut me off. So do you want to go first? Cut you off? How do I cut you? You do. You constantly cut me off. You don't invest in this relationship. Oh, my God. Literally. No, nobody thinks that. Do you want to do a word count again? Just because you go to Argentina. We can do a word count so I can prove to you again. A little asado. Audience, just so you know, we do a secret word count, and Scott always comes out on top, just so you know. Daddy's on top. He likes to be in charge. He's Alan Alda publicly. He's a caveman in the sack.

1:04:08Hello, ladies. Oh, my God. Hello. And as you see, I totally outspeak him. I could have been Mr. Senator Cantwell. All right. My win is Three Body Problem. It's on Netflix. We were just talking about Netflix. Whoa, it is so cool. It's based on, I think it's a Chinese sci-fi thing. And there's a really weird backstory. It's the guys who did Game of Thrones, so they know how to make a show. And they're really talented. and I've interviewed them before when they did Game of Thrones and this show is really compelling. It's also weird. And the guy who funded it was a Chinese billionaire who got murdered by one of his employees.

1:04:50This is separately by being poisoned. It's like this whole story is, but the story itself is amazing and it's hard. It's not easy. You really have to pay attention. And I'm compelled to watch it. And a lot of these shows, I have to say, like I did watch The Gentleman, but I'm not compelled to watch the next one. This one, I can't, like, same thing with Shogun. What I think about with streaming is, do I want to keep going? And there's a lot of stuff I leave off and I see my history of these things. And Shogun and this are the kind of things that move me forward. They're beautifully made, really interesting.

1:05:24The cast, I've never seen most of the cast. There are some Jonathan Prices in it who's always fantastic, but this is a cast I don't know and I love that. Like, that's one of the things that's super compelling to me. My fail is, you know, this continued situation around abortion. And Trump is trying to thread the needle saying right now he's saying abortion should be left to the states, declines to endorse a national limit. He was he was pretending. But I do think we have to. This is one of the more compelling reasons that I've been talking to a lot of women, particularly. There are bans on all or almost most abortions in so many states, almost the entire South.

1:06:09And then there's bans after 12 to 15 weeks and then ban blocked by the court. There's several. But much of the South will be without abortion rights. So the entire South, really, unless, say, Florida wins in this election where they put it into the Constitution. But this is not how this is no way to run a country on a big issue. We have to come to some sort of agreement. And then that I think the best chance of that is Joe Biden, obviously not Donald Trump. He's made a mess of it as we are. So that to me continues to be a vexing issue, bodily autonomy. So we'll see if this should be a much bigger issue.

1:06:50I understand why immigration is. I understand why crime is. But to me, abortion, I think, will be the biggest issue, one of the bigger issues in the election and should be. Go ahead, Scott. So my win, a huge win for women's sports. Viewership estimates for the NCAA women's tournament final between Caitlin Clark's Iowa team and unbeaten South Carolina are between 18 and 24 million. And to put that in context, the upper figure would be five times what the women's final drew just two years ago. It would also be, get this, Kara, every game from last year's World Series, all five games of the NBA finals, all but two college football games and even outdo one of the NFL's postseason matchups.

1:07:37I mean, the reality is there's been a lot of complaints about equal pay. And I, quite frankly, always said, well, as soon as they start making as much money as men's sports, they will get as much money. And now it's happening. And this is a seminal moment for women's sports. Basketball, pulling more than – She's a star. Wow. Unbelievable. So this is a really nice moment for women's sports. Anyways, big win, Caitlin Clark and the South Carolina team and just women's sports in general. My fail, I had a different fail, but what you just said and what Professor Guillot said inspired me. In Florida, the Supreme Court has said, actually, no, right to abortion is not codified.

1:08:29The governor can do this and limit it at six weeks. So someone has put on the ballot a resolution that would, in fact, give every woman in Florida the constitutional right to have an abortion, and they need 60%. It's polling pretty closely. So my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice, I decided to do a big deep dive into Roe. Bodily autonomy has played a big role in my life. And so what I came to sort of, I think, understand is that I was trying to figure out what's going on here. What are the drivers when you have the majority of even Republicans, much less the nation, are for some level of bodily autonomy?

1:09:04What's going on? And it's like, okay, it's about life. It's not. The people who are most vehemently ineffective around the pro-life movement are the first to want to advocate for capital punishment or force a woman to carry essentially what becomes a cancerous tumor around or put a woman's health in jeopardy. It's not about life. And they think, well, then Democrats go, they're not obsessed with life. They're obsessed with birth. That misses the mark, too, because, again, it's the same group who wants to cut funding for the child tax credit. They don't want to make it easier for young people to have children.

1:09:36children. As a matter of fact, able-bodied people, young people between the ages of 30 and 34, in 1990, 60 % of them had at least one child. It's dropped to 27%. So if we wanted more kids, we could absolutely do it. We've just decided we're not obsessed with birth. What I determined or what all the data shows is the following, and this is both Professor Guillot and Fareed Zakaria's new book, The Age of Revolutions, I think it's called Reflect. And that is, there are certain conservative wings of almost every religion that are really uncomfortable with the ascent of women. And the fastest way to, quote unquote, put them back in their place is to do what we do to the IRS or the Antitrust Committee, and that is to defund them.

1:10:21And when you force a woman to carry a baby to term against her will, you're basically impoverishing her and diminishing her power. And the fact that more and more women are less reliant on the government or on men is really upsetting to some of these groups, and they want to go back. Now, that's not the most disturbing feature, and this is my fail. There's two stats. The first is that the greatest source of mortality by a factor of two for women who are either pregnant or have recently given birth is homicide. And abortion gives women the opportunity to break ties with a violent partner. But the really, really disturbing fact here is the following.

1:11:06The segment of America that provides the least support around bodily autonomy, it's not old white people. It's Gen Z men. men 27 and younger are the least supportive of a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy. And I believe it's because young men feel shunned by women and want, believe that if they take women back to the fifties and sixties, they're going to need them more. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's anger. I don't know if it's conspiracy theory. I don't know if it's just naked misogyny, but I was absolutely shocked and rattled by the fact that young men are the least supportive of a woman's rights to terminate a pregnancy.

1:11:50And it's also the definition of stupid because it not only hurts society, hurts the economy, it hurts them. Because to be quite crass and blunt, when you deny a woman's ability to plan out pregnancies and have kids when she wants to, fellas, let me tell you, this isn't going to increase but decrease the likelihood you ever get laid. What do you think is going to happen to sex when women may be forced to carry a baby to term against her will? So this is literally the definition of stupid. Young men feel shunned by women. Young men want more sex. It's not that they're more religious. It's not all of a sudden they have a new undying love for the unborn.

1:12:34It's that they're angry at women. And let me tell you, that is not a good rap. That is not a good rap. Anyways, my fail here is young men who just do not understand that bodily autonomy is key to their ability to someday have kids. They're key to someday find a woman who wants to have a relationship and wants to have sex with them that might result in a partnership. and the fact that we are mistaking this pro-life movement for anything but the following. And that is trying to put this group of people who have ascended faster globally than any other group, and that is women. And we never win taking groups back.

1:13:15So anyways, my fail is Gen Z men. What the fuck are you thinking? What the fuck are you thinking? Doesn't that shock you? No, it doesn't. No, it shocked the shit out of me. No. I think what Ruth was talking about, sort of uber daddy, the manly man. It's such a toxic, it's literally, I have spent my whole life trying to raise sons who are not the opposite of that, but not that, right? Because I want them to feel good about being men. I want them to feel strong. I want them to feel, you know, their gender. I do. I do. I know it sounds crazy, but I do. But I also, you know, one time years ago, I remember people were surprised by this.

1:13:56Louie really wanted to learn how to shoot a gun. And he did. And I wasn't going to deny him. I put him with someone who knew how to shoot guns. He wanted to go hunting. He did. And I, you know, I was like, he goes, do you want to go with me? I'm like, I don't have any interest. I think it's grotesque in many ways. But you should do what you want. And he got his gun license in California. He took all the tests. he went with a friend of mine who was also a great fisherman and hunter who also took him fishing up in California on those boats where you and I just feel people were like how can you do that I was like he wants to try it he doesn't like it now but he did it and so I wanted them to feel whatever they want to feel but definitely spent a lot of time thinking about how they treat women and how they think about women And I have to say, both of them are very good boyfriends.

1:14:50They're very good. You know what I mean? They care about their partner's health and their well-being, I think, from what I can see. I think Alex has a new girlfriend who's wonderful and who knows her own stuff. She's a strong woman. And he's attracted to that in a good way. And so I agree with you. I don't know what's in their fucking heads, these men. I honestly don't. I think a lot of it is, I mean, one third, two thirds of women under the age of 30 have a boyfriend, only one third of men. Women are dating older because they want someone more economically and emotionally viable. I also do think, I don't want to be too Alan Alda here, I do think that media has taught women to exit a relationship, that you don't need this, you deserve better, and the Carly Simon song in the background.

1:15:35I don't think enough women, if you go to these sites, women all want the same guy who's over six feet tall and makes over$100 ,000. And I think that online dating speedballs this unreasonable filter. But then they lose that advantage pretty soon, right? And they all end up alone. Yeah, they lose that advantage. And they all end up alone. But young men, but here's the thing. Young women who are more attracted, because men will always be more attracted to younger women, not always, but most. And then what you have is a group of 20-somethings, especially men, who resent women because they feel like they've been shunned by them on dating apps.

1:16:12And I think they've become very resentful. Yeah, I can see it. And it's a real shame. And then, unfortunately, men without the prospect of a romantic relationship go down to a much darker place than a woman without a prospect for a romantic relationship. And that is women have much stronger social networks than the consequent guardrails and consequent care and love. Whereas guys without the prospect of a romantic relationship get angry and they like, you know, stop looking for a job. Stop showering. That can happen. And that's one thing we should be pressing for men is friendships. One thing I'm really happy about the boys is they all have really good male friendships and female friendships.

1:16:51I think that's something we don't push enough with men. I spend a lot of time. I'm thrilled Alice isn't a frat. I couldn't be more thrilled. Well, I was just in Israel, and they have mandatory national service. And I was at this memorial at the Nova Music Festival, and I met all of these, I call them kids. I mean, they literally look like they're in high school, Kara. And it's women, compulsory for two years, men for three years. And all of these young men and women in uniform who carry an automatic rifle, so they have to learn about moral ambiguity, technology. making snap decisions. They serve in the agency of something bigger than themselves.

1:17:30And they're all together and they're all outside and they're all working their asses off. They meet business partners, friends, they meet boyfriends, girlfriends, mates. We need, you know, to your point, we need a big investment in trying to get a cure and decrease loneliness among young people because they just don't know how to, they don't know how to handle it. It's terrible for them. Yep. But when it becomes, last point I'll make, I just, I'm judging the Livingston Awards and one, some, there's all these amazing stories. One of them was about Afghan women, their suicide rate is going up since the Taliban took over because they live in these domestic violent relationships and they don't get choices anymore.

1:18:10So it was, it was a fascinating story. But those kind of things degrade so quickly. So if you combine what Ruth was talking about with this trend, it's really, it creates a bad society for everybody. Anyway, very good topic, Scott. What a really interesting point you're making. I really appreciate all your words on that. All your many words. My many, my many, my two to one never ending words. Never ending. It's not two to one, but it's not, it's not not two to one. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show I recall, 855-51-PIVOT.

1:18:47Okay, Scott, that is the show. Are you traveling anywhere? Are you sitting, staying put? I'm here for a couple weeks, and I go, I'm speaking at TED in late April. Oh, right, that's right. And then I'm going down to L.A. for Mar, and then I'm going to Miami, then I'm going to New York. Oh, craziness. I'm here for a little bit. You know, I'll be in London in mid-May. I don't think you're going to be there. Mid-May. Yeah, maybe. We'll go out for dinner. Anyway, I'm also going to Austin this week to do at the LBJ Library. Yeah, I'm doing a little thing with Larry Wilmer there at the thing. Larry Wilmer?

1:19:21Yes, yes. I love that guy. I know. I do, too. I love Larry Wilmer. He's funny and he's smart. Yeah, he asked me to come do this thing or they asked me to come do it with him. We have a nice rapport. It was on a show once. And then I'm not even going to say, I'm going to tell you Thursday when I'm doing Friday. You're going to die so good. Is it involved Senator Cantwell, Patty Stunstive, or Emily Ratajkowski? No, no. I'm going to LA to do some stuff, but I'll tell you that later. I'll tell you that later. Yeah. Anyway. Is it someone I like who you're going to start making? Are you going to steal another one of my male friends?

1:19:53No, these are female friends that you probably want to have friendships with. Anyway, we'll be back on Friday with more, and I'll tell you about that right before that happens. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertod engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Severio. Nishat Karua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod.

1:20:24We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. The great people of Washington State meet the first dude. The dog.

1:20:38Thank you.