DOGE’s Chaos Strategy, X’s New Valuation, and Guest Co-Host Katie Drummond

26:25Older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon, right? And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space, what he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online. he's an icon. He's an idol. I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon. They are doing it for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States. I would imagine for a 19-year-old who runs a company called Tesla.Sexy LLC probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure to be on with Elon Musk.

27:07It is, it is, it is. And yeah, older people just wouldn't do. They do have older people, as you've noted, and others have reported very sophisticated lawyers and everything else. And someone who's not hiding his disgust for Elon is Steve Bannon, which is interesting. Bannon called Elon, I think, this week a parasitic illegal immigrant, though he did compliment Doge. And he said Elon wants to play act as God. He does seem to be a fan, as I said, of Doge's work. He told CNN. Let's listen. Elon's doing some great work. You know, I'm a huge supporter of the deconstruction administrative state and what Elon's doing in Doge.

27:42I'm a big supporter of that. I hope and my prayer is, is that these cuts are real. So Bannon later called out Elon, Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos as oligarchs who don't support the MAGA movement. What is going on here? I think he would turn and be pals with Elon in five seconds. No question with this guy. I mean, my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was inside of the inner circle, right, and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.

28:22He's sitting in front of the Resolute desk. Yeah, I think that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess. Right, right. And that's what those compliments for. When you think about those who are pushing back, are there really true people pushing back? And what can be done? Obviously, Scott makes fun of the people, the Democrats standing in front of agencies and yelling. But, you know, there is something to protest, obviously. is there real pushback within the government and within technology circles? They just seem to be quitting.

28:56A lot of the techies who are in there are leaving or going. Yeah, yeah. I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of, you know, leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that we're seeing that play out. I think what we're seeing, to your point, are, you know, politicians standing up outside of offices in D.C. and making a fuss and making noise, which fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that.

29:31I think having those clips on social media, there's value there. Obviously, we're seeing, you know, people take to the streets and protest in, I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest. And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. And then we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies walk. We're seeing them walk publicly, right? They're not being shy about why they're leaving. and I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer I think with integrity hold the office that they hold that the only choice they feel they have is to leave on the flip side though what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these you know leaders within these federal agencies to put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands.

30:36So that's essentially what that means. They just opened up the headcount, and that's a good thing. Yeah, among the biggest people is the cyber people. They're terribly worried. That's the ones who are sort of sounding the alarms in terms of the porousness of what's happening here. Yeah. All right, we're going to a quick break. When we come back, more about Doe's Central and Wired's amazing reporting.

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32:38Katie, we're back. There's obviously been a lot of questions. You mentioned about conflicts of interest since Elon came to Washington. I agree. I don't think his big thing is to make money, although he doesn't mind doing it. And he's supported, like he's using threats to push X. He's using threats to this and that. He's doing the typical shakedown kind of thing that can happen. Wired has done some new reporting on SpaceX engineers in the FAA. They're also putting his people within the FAA. And also, apparently, President Trump's trying to get him to figure out why he doesn't have his jet. Like he's putting him on that, too.

33:12Right, right. Talk about that. I'll note SpaceX launches are regulated by the FAA and the agency has alleged that SpaceX violated safety rules in the past many times. Talk a little bit of the story today. Yeah. So, oh, I mean, and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. You know, so we've identified several SpaceX engineers who were onboarded into the FAA this week, even as, you know, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said, we've got some engineers from SpaceX.

33:51They're taking a tour of some facilities, sort of like nothing to see here. Meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the FAA. And so these are these are engineers. I think it's important to be very clear that these are people with legitimate qualifications, right? I'm not talking about 19-year-olds who have decided to put up a rocket. Yeah, right. These are people who, you know, work at SpaceX, like they make rockets go into the sky and then come down. But there are obviously, you know, several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that, you know, Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's very clear that the FAA has been understaffed and spread way too thin for far too long, right?

34:37There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time. So the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that the FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So the idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to try to, quote, fix that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I just find the idea of, you know, someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs, you know, commercial aviation, that's genuinely a very scary prospect.

35:31Yeah, and it's happening all over the government. Obviously, you guys have been reporting on that. And again, who's running SpaceX and Twitter and all these others? I see Steve Davis, who's been a very active Musk minion. What is the point here of putting them there just for eyes? I assume eyes and ears. Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders, right? I mean, they're there to carry out Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly, apparently not in charge of Doge. I think we all know that that's, you know, that's a lie. It's an interesting characterization that doesn't seem reflected in what's actually going on.

36:08I mean, look, I think they're the adults in the room. I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be. What's the impact on the companies? Because, by the way, Tesla's not doing great, by the way. They're not, you know, but what is happening at the companies when they pull these people out? I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great. But we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So I think it's hard to say what's happening at the companies, especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty, right?

36:46I think we had an example a week ago. I believe it was a Doge operative within the technology transformation services who had kept his job at an external company while fulfilling this role for Muscat Federal Agency. So it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and work several jobs at the same time. He could put them in every agency, his own employees, correct? that are beholden to him and nobody else. He could, and that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen Doge operatives. I call them operatives because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them.

37:22Like, they have multiple email addresses. So you have people working within two, three, four agencies at any given time, multiple email addresses, apparently sort of acting out the asks of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is a terrifying proposition, honestly. And who is coordinating all that? Elon is not doing this alone. Who do you think is the most critical person helping him coordinate this? I think in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is, I think, shorthand for that would be like, it's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, most recently at XAI, and she's there as chief of staff.

38:02So she's really sort of like running point, you know what a chief of staff does. I mean, they sort of like keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it, of the federal government. So I think that she is like a very critical linchpin in this. Then you also have the GSA, which is the General Services Administration, and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from where they are stationed.

38:38But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to just in the sense that she is really the operational leader working within that agency. And he always has those. He has those all the time that are loyal to him. What people have to understand, they're loyal to Elon Musk, not Donald Trump. These are not Trump. These were not Trump supporters and neither was Elon for a long time. So I want to ask you about the president, because what is his role in here? And last week, he's channeled Napoleon posting. He who saves his country does not violate the law. He was controlling people with that.

39:09He also called himself king on Wednesday as he tried to kill congestion pricing in New York. He's busy. That interview was really something. It doesn't seem like he knows what Elon is doing. That's my impression. Everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know how often to be communicating with Doge. They don't know what that process is supposed to look like. It really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead. And the actual White House, the actual administration is behind.

39:43They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as the press is, as journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out what Elon has been up to, despite, you know, any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge. It really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on. And frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares. And why do you think he's allowing this to happen? Wow, that's a great question. I mean, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell.

40:18He's telling, you know, U.S. citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting cost. He's telling them that he is very close to tech and to sort of tech leadership and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24-7. I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's inescapable. Yeah, it's a great narrative. It's a great story. I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.

40:53Nothing at all. All right, Katie, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about X's new valuation.

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43:15Katie, we're back. Let's get to a couple more headlines. Elon Musk acts as in talks to raise money from investors at a valuation of$44 billion. If that number sounds familiar, it's because it's the same price Musk bought the platform back in 2022. In December, Fidelity Investments marked down its stake in the company by 70%. This follows a trend of Musk's company valuation soaring since he's taken a significant role in the Trump administration, even if the companies are suffering, such as Tesla. Numbers are down and the price was up. X is not in the same place it was pre-Elon. It's smaller. Today, the Wall Street Journal published a very good story about X people pressuring advertisers to get back on, or else maybe they'll face an investigation or they'd be added to a lawsuit that they're doing.

43:55They're using a lot of legal means to try to force advertisers onto what is clearly a less good platform. Talk about this. Although, again, it's not for him to make money is not maybe his guiding role. He certainly is doing it. And here's a perfect example of it. Here's a perfect example. I mean, this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. I mean, it is, for all intents and purposes, a right wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You know, you could pay people on X.

44:31They're going to introduce audio and video. They're going to integrate it with Grok AI. Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the president. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors, I would imagine, is very appealing. And for investors and advertisers, you know, the sort of the implicit or direct threats that are, you know, reportedly being made. So it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump.

45:10It's that in some instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice. Right. They are going to either pay or pay or not. But you're going to be in trouble in some way. Let me read you someone. I asked him about this today. I think this dynamic is playing out that every advertiser who knows what they're doing, no media buyer, indeed no marketer, once their CEO gets a call from Elon Musk berating them for not advertising on X, it sounds judgment to avoid by throwing some money to the company. Everything about this I loathe. It creates a bad precedent.

45:43It puts money in Elon's pocket. It undermines the advertising business. You know, I think it's just prudent business. I have heard stories that the team is making veiled threats, perhaps not so failed threats, and I think it will ultimately bite them someday. But this is a classic story of corruption that, you know, it's just a kind of thing like that. You cannot build businesses on threats. I mean, you can't, but you can actually. I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here.

46:21To be clear, what's happening here is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that and sort of think about it across many, many companies across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that, this is what is happening to our country. X is a microcosm of that, right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations bending a knee and saying like, oh, oligarchy? Like, okay, let's, like, let's, sure. I guess we don't have a choice. So hands up. We're going to go along with it. They are saying, I've heard them say it to me, we don't have a choice.

47:03We can't do it right now. We can't do anything about it. Is there anyone else trying to take it back? Obviously, all the tech leaders showed up at inauguration in that shameless display of fealty. I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook from inauguration, like he looked physically ill and like somewhat mortified. But he was there. And let history show, let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn, knock on wood, he was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there. Sam Altman. obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, was there and then subsequently, you know, polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and the world.

47:51You know, Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this. And I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so, So it's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think really importantly with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and for everybody to remember as the years go by and there's more and more chaos and we're doing more and more, when the dust settles, don't forget that they were all there. Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the president of the United States. The influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions of people.

48:39Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month. Is there any resistance in tech at all, besides Reid Hoffman and maybe Mark Cuban? None that I have been able to discern. You know, I've talked to a lot of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record, or talking to their comms people. And the message to me has been very clear. When we go on the record, don't ask us about politics. They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it. And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of them were talking about it.

49:19I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump administration, with regards to the president's comments on immigrants, people from garbage countries, whatever, shithole countries. You know, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of crises over the next four years. I really believe that. So last question. The Democrats, I don't think, were as close to tech as people thought it was. I thought Obama was, you know, in that regard with Eric Schmidt and others. Do you think it's a wholesale change?

49:55I think it's an opportunistic change. And the joke I make is that if Kamala Harris won, Mark Zuckerberg would be asking us to calling him they them. Yes. You know, I don't think it's anything other than that because I don't think they're committed in any way. And I think C. Bannon's right. They're not MAGA friends. They just are opportunistic. In that regard, is there an opportunity for Democrats in that way besides giving these toddlers what they want? You mean to get closer to the tech industry? Back to closest. Or do you think it's an overall shift that's permanent? I don't think it's an overall shift.

50:27I think you're right that this is like company before country, right? This is opportunistic. What's best for Meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers, right? It's about the bottom line. It's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. Um, it's, it is absolutely opportunistic, but I think to be able, for the Democrats to be able to create an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when beyond some like sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out in D.C.

51:04outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all. I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half years, we're in a very different position ahead of the next U.S. election. But it's very hard to see that happening right now because I don't see much happening at all. Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree. Okay, Katie, it's time for this week's Threads poll result.

51:35Last week, we asked you all what you wish Democrats were doing in response to Trump administration. That's why I was asking about that. But here are a few responses. Kerry said, replace Schumer's entire comm stash with Pete Buttigieg. From Marina, primary, retire all those old white men and support young, ferocious, fearless candidates. And Nick said, talk like human beings. Stop fundraising texts. Demonstrate understanding of urgency. We know the house is on fire. We want to see firefighters, nurses, cops. Good answers, kind of. Yeah, those are great. What you were saying. What would, I mean, I think this is right.

52:07It's the elderliness of it. the tone definite, the lack of social media. I think the Republicans are excellent on social media comparatively, and that the Democrats certainly aren't as much. Some are, certainly are. Do you see anybody being very promising? I mean, Pritzker suddenly has sort of developed a backbone and is using social media a lot. Obviously, AOC uses it. Is there anybody, and how important is that going forward? I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. I think he knows how to create a viral moment. He's very well-spoken. He's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party.

52:48Obviously, I think that AOC is tremendous. I mean, I think she is articulate. She is forceful. She is accessible. I think what she does on vertical video on social platforms in terms of communicating with her audience is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of, I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's grassroots digital outreach, right? It's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now, and sort of really genuinely acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader.

53:28I think the Democrats need more to the point of one of the commenters really sort of, you know, high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly, you know, the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now. I'm waving. Scott says waving their canes at people. I would agree. I actually see Chris Murphy doing some interesting things. There's a bunch of them. There's a bunch of them, but it has to be coordinated in a way that, you know, and you still have the power of the Rogans, although he's slipping a little bit. You're starting to see slippage with him.

54:03I think the audience is up for grabs, that's for sure, if they want to have the right questions. All right. Now for this week's questions for our audience. Do you think China will agree to the sale of TikTok under the Trump administration? Katie, I want your response very quickly on this one. No. And so what happens? What happens? I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is very dubious in its legality. And I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokers some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States.

54:38I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down. So I think he brokers some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though, is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And we at Wired, I will say, we do not know. And do you see any person besides Larry Ellison rising to the front? I have said Musk, obviously, because he's he's acceptable to China. I think Elon Musk. I think Larry Ellison.

55:13I do not think as much as I really like Frank McCourt and I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and intelligent person. I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way. Yeah, I think it's probably going to be the Elon thing once again. This is going to fix everything. And it's good for Twitter. It would be good for Twitter because that's an actually good product as opposed to Twitter. Visit us on threads at pivotpodcastofficial to answer. So we'll hear the answers that we get from listeners. If you've got a question of your own or you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

55:47All right, Katie, one more quick break. We'll be back for your prediction.

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57:22Okay, Katie, let's hear a prediction. You are Scott Galloway today. Okay, I'm going to offer a completely insane, improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful and real bummers for everybody, and I'm sorry about that. So here's my prediction. One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches on to an idea or an ideology, and he sticks with it, and he goes really, really hard at it. And then he changes his mind. It has happened before. My prediction, and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and make fun of me for how wrong I was, something will happen, whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in MAGA world, within sort of the Trump orbit, something will happen.

58:10And he will pivot back to a more progressive, more left-leaning, Dem-centric ideology. And he will do away with this sort of like hardline, extremist, far-right approach. This is, I am giving you a very optimistic, a very optimistic prediction. And it's just your wish, your wish that he will do this? I think there is a 1 % chance that it will happen. And so I'm using it as my prediction. He used to support, I just was looking at texts he sent me about the climate change thing. He was all over. He was so upset in the text, like Trump was doing. Same thing, oddly enough, with gay and lesbian stuff.

58:48I think it's important for people to remember that he was not always this way. It was not always like this. Well, he was a little bit this way. A little, but he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016. So I am saying there is a 1 % chance that he moves in the other direction. Well, we'll see. I don't know what could happen. Getting off the evening activities, I don't know what could happen. I don't know. You never know. His daughter is nice to him, who can't stand him. Exactly. You never know. You never know. If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything, it's that you never know.

59:26I did not know. He is consistent. Donald Trump is consistent. He has not changed one bit, except he's got a rich friend that he uses as a cudgel on everybody else. But we'll see. That's a really good one, Katie. I like it. Thank you. I like it. Excellent. I like it. We'll see. I will have you back in six months if that happens. All right. I just want to say absolutely stellar coverage. You are you guys are not just a scoop machine, but the context and you're sticking to it. Let me ask you a personal question. Are you worried in any way for yourself with all these threats? As people ask me that a lot, because when he recently threatened Scott and I and I was like, oh, did he like, OK, like.

1:00:01But it's not something that's not in my mind. Legal action or, you know, pressure from people. I have seen it. I'm seeing it happen. I was supposed to appear with someone they pulled out. They're like, oh, you're too hot. Like, and I was like, I don't think you mean that a nice way, like kind of thing. Um, I, and, and, and to, is, do you feel pressure not to keep doing what you're doing? I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing. I think what I feel is concern, um, for the, the legal and digital and physical safety of my staff. Um, I, I worry like I'm, I'm a mom. I have a family. And I bring my mom energy to work.

1:00:44And I care about them. I worry about them. I worry about myself and my family to a degree. And of course, I worry about it. But the thing is, there's nothing inaccurate about the journalism. Like, there is no, you know, everything, as I have said before, I mean, and this is such a cliche thing for an editor-in-chief to say, but we stand by the reporting. It is rock solid. there is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some detrimental way. And so I have to just stick with that and keep going. And I think that's for the entire newsroom. Yep. I used to tell that to our reporters, you just have to get it right.

1:01:23It has to be right. Yeah, it has to be right. You cannot make a mistake with these people because the minute you make even just the slightest one, you know, you have an Achilles heel showing them they will come for you and that's what they'll do. But still there are issues. I think you're right to be concerned about digital issues, about hacking, about legal attacks and stuff like that. And so that's why it's all the more courageous for what you and others are doing in terms of and keep going. Keep going for big balls. I don't know. And the fact that you couldn't. I'm sorry. It was so good. We shouldn't laugh at this, but come on.

1:01:55How good is that? Tesla.sexy.llc. I know. Big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts. You like it a little bit. Oh, I love it. You love doing it. Okay, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod.

1:02:32We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you, Katie. Thank you.