Don Lemon Returns, Bitcoin ETF Approval, and BI vs. Axel Springer

24:49Everything I see in here is accurate. it. He she handled it. His wife handled it well. They're right. Citation inaccuracy. I have fixed it. Bill was absolutely on the right track. And on the whole, I think his contribution to this mess or situation has been positive. But when he starts trying to put a chill on journalism with his billions, that is just bullshit. It is bullying and it's bad for America. Yeah. You know what? I don't agree with you. I agree him calling out the issues of anti-Semitism. But this is a piece by Tim Noah, who I like quite a bit, wrote, I've written previously that Ackman's oligarchic bullying and brazen hypocrisy on the subject of anti-Semitism, even as Ackman was trying to blackball a bunch of teenagers whose Harvard student organization signed onto a foolish and offensive letter about the October 7th Hamas massacre.

25:44Ackman was simultaneously defending an anti-Semitic tweet made by 53-year-old Elon Musk. Elon Musk, 100%. The offending anti-Semitic tweet was not Musk's first, and it sent corporate advertisers leaving Twitter, X, and droves. In a classic two-step maneuver, characteristics of bullies, Ackman punched down and kissed up, which is what I've said. Now Ackman has extended his hypocrisy into the realm of plagiarism, a project that includes bullying Axel Springer, the publisher of Business Insider, into investigating the ethics of its own scoop. The new campaign is more bizarre and potentially more dangerous.

26:17And he just changed his tune, like completely, like as if we're not paying attention. He said it was he was going after gay on the board, finally publicly announced some gay plagiarism, blah, blah, blah. And then he's now changed his opinion about plagiarism, because it applies to his wife, which is the family off limits, the saying it's because his wife was Israeli. It's just nonsense. Saying they didn't call him quickly enough. But then it's also, we were having a Shabbat dinner. He knows how journalism works. It's just, they don't, as Tim says, scoops do not arrive on a convenient schedule.

27:02It's just, it's just ridiculous. We were having Shabbat dinner. I know. This is, again, I really didn't like it when Claudine Gay immediately pulled out the racism card when she was fired. I don't think it's any less distasteful that he is immediately going to anti-Semitism here. And also, George Carlin, who's kind of a hero of mine, said, I love people as individuals. He's like, you can see the universe in their eyes. It's when they begin to coalesce in groups, when they begin to clot that they're dangerous. And one of the most dangerous clotting, as epitomized here, is white billionaires in their 50s and 60s.

27:39And the question I would have for Matthias Doepner, who is a role model of mine, I like him a lot. I think he represents a lot of wonderful attributes of masculinity, is if someone who just made a really good living, if this article was written about them and they weren't a billionaire with the influence of Bill Ackman, would you be calling for a review of this article? This is when it's another billionaire, when it's Musk, Dofner, and Ackman, they just have a dangerous tendency to agree with each other and support each other. distinct of what are the standard. If you look at the logic here, business insiders, they had every right to write an article like this.

28:21And what's happened is Bill Ackman has absolutely activated his army of publicists. He's gone to this positioning of anti-Semitism where you're like, okay. He's doing it himself on Twitter. It's just, he keeps changing his tune as if we can't read what he wrote. I mean, the hypocrisy before he was all over gay about, He demanded attention because this is Tim Noah's represented, an exceptional violation of academic standards. Now Ackman was saying they all do it. You know what I mean? This is normal. So did he have a problem with it or has he changed his mind? And he's calling more attention to the issue.

28:58I thought his wife handled it really well. Yeah, I was wrong. I need to clean it up. Shut the F up about this. And he doesn't have to. And Claudine Gay needs to clean up her stuff. But that's not, but that, it wasn't reason nor why she was fired. It wasn't reason to fire nor why they fired her. And he's created a total sideshow that, in my opinion, distracts from and diminishes the importance of the issues he had raised. Yeah, I would agree. Anyway, it's creating a sideshow that just didn't need to be there. And also, I'm just, when you're Matthias Dopfner and you own these, when you own something like the Business Insider, I mean, you support it.

29:40You back it up. You don't, I mean, my God, if he wants to do a review of this, I'll send you about 100 articles on Politico and Business Insider that are much more suspect than this. Yeah, I agree. They've had some stuff that's, but, you know, this is a very, every very good reporter came to it. It's, you know, it's a good article. It's a solid article. Two things, last things on this is, you know, I agree with you. Bill Ackman has just been a bully his whole life, a bullying billionaire, essentially. And he just can't stop. He's got something in his nature that he can't just stop. Well, he's an activist investor.

30:18I think it's unfair to call him a bully. Yeah, but he's beyond. I know a lot of them. I know a lot of them, and they're not quite like him. And nobody, by the way, I've talked to a lot of people on Wall Street. Most people don't like him. Like, he has a lot of detractors who find him irritating. Well, okay. I've never met the man, but let me also say, I know a lot of good people who are big fans of his. Yeah, I know. But I'm just saying, he's a controversial figure. I think that's being kind. He's a billionaire activist investor. That's just not where you go to be well-liked. I guess Carl Icahn's not that well-liked either.

30:51Carl Icahn. I know. I know. I know. They're all kind of a class. Name a billionaire activist who's seen as warm and cuddly and everybody loves. I like Dan Loeb. He makes me laugh. And I don't agree with him almost anything. Dan is funny and a good guy. And not only that, I will. And also, Dan has mellowed. Dan has absolutely mellowed. Those poison pen letters he used to write. I like Charles. Oh, that one guy who was after Microsoft. I liked him. There's David Einhorn, who is a class act. David Einhorn. David Einhorn. I like him. He is very good. Super smart. Class act. He's Sheryl Sandberg's cousin.

31:23Really? Mm-hmm. Also, Jeffrey Ubbin of Value Act developed a reputation for being kind of an operational activist and very smart. Yeah. I think the best tweet on it was, everything I know about Bill Ackman I learned against my will. There's a lot of good tweets. And let me just say, last thing on Axel Springer. You know, we know Dupner, and I know a lot of people at the organization. And they're always like, Kara, you should come over here. Kara, why are you at Box? They're always saying, let's have a meeting. And now, guess what, boys? Kara's not having a meeting with you ever. Ever, ever, ever, ever.

31:59Like, it's just, that was it. I'll set out our contracts coming up. We need to cut that out. Daddy wants the cheddar. No. The wealthier I get, the more interesting I get. No, we're not going there. We're not going there, Scott. That's a great firm. They screwed up here. They're allowed to screw up. Then they need to do a public apology. Anyways, and Matthias Döfner is a fantastic role model. I don't agree with him. He's a little too. Yeah. And Bill gets it mostly right, in my view. Anyways, Glass Heffel. Not this one. Glass Heffel. No, no, no. You defend rich white men. Anyway, by the way, Duffner, I think, is a billionaire.

32:30That's not fair. You got that. That's not fair. Oh, I know that. I know that. I just defend rich white people, not just men. I defend rich white women as well. Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Don Lemon's new project and X's attempt to be a contender in the online video space and take a listener mail question about tech and health care.

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33:35Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate, and more. Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.

34:07Scott, we're back for our second big story. Dee Lemon, Dallin Lemon, is back, and he says he's bigger, bolder, freer. He was pretty free. Lemon announced this week that he's starting a new show that will stream exclusively first on X. Episodes will cover politics, culture, sports, entertainment. This is part of X's larger push into video. In a blog post this week, the company declared itself a video-first platform. Dom was on our show during Scott Free August this past summer. I asked him about his future plans. Let's listen to what he said. I think I want to do something next that scares the shit out of me.

34:44and I had a very successful career in cable news for a long time. I got to do and say exactly what I wanted to. I have and had a very important voice that most people don't get to hear on that platform and still don't. And I expect that to continue, but I'm going to lean into the future of this medium. So it's a podcast that's going to be first on X, I guess, which, you know, they've been, Linda's been going around. I knew a lot about this because I talked to Don about it quite a bit. I had other suggestions for him. I suggested he do a deal with Ben Shapiro or do the Megyn Kelly route. I didn't think this was a good idea.

35:30So that's just full disclosure. And I told him so. And I said, you know, get the money up front. I just don't think it's going to go well for you on this platform but he did it he's other things he's doing but he also called X the biggest space for free speech in the world I think it was also Tulsi Gabbard and sports commentator Jim Rome are doing video partnerships obviously Tucker Carlson's been there but then moved to his own subscription based platform Scott what do you think? I said he shouldn't do it I thought there were lots of other choices. And again, if I'm recommending Ben Shapiro, who I think is abhorrent in many ways, but he's quite a good media executive, that's the kind of outfit I thought he should have affiliated, you know, to create a great media property.

36:21I think you're right. So first off, I think Don is a real talent. He is. And I think he's unafraid. He connects with people. He's really handsome, which I think is incredibly important in media. not as important in podcasting but if i were him i would have just started with a podcast with a box or you know daily you know whatever it's called daily wire and developed a following there because x sort of creates a halo that okay congratulations you're now you know on the same platform as alex jones and the guy who runs it is just sort of reckless and strange and I don't, this reminds me a little bit of when Yahoo did a big deal with Katie Couric.

37:05Yes, I broke all those stories. It's not, it's not, I don't, this is not what I would have done if I was Don. If I were Don, I would have figured out an outlet where I could still have a 30 or 60 minute show because he has a face for television and I do think him in TV is still, he would still do well even if he had to go to a quote unquote second tier network and he should have done a great podcast to kind of announce this. It's not just Don Lemon and what the topic is going to talk about. It's Don Lemon and X. And X, in my view, is a bad umbrella brand. But on the whole, he's a big talent. And the thing I do like about this is that he is doing something.

37:49The key for all of these folks, and I've spoken to a lot of them recently as they're all trying to figure out their third or fourth act, is don't let perfect be the enemy of good. And that is just get on to the next thing and iterate. Well, they're used to a different world because they're used to being coddled and the whole network system. Right. You know, in Katie's case, I actually did break that story. That's how I got to know Katie from that story. She got a ton of money up front, but then they buried her inside of Yahoo, never was on the front page. A whole bunch of things that happened.

38:22Well, she only got 1 % of what Marissa Mayer appeared for Tumblr, who is obviously arguably one of the worst CEOs in the history of tech. I think they paid Don a pile of money. I know they did pile the money up front, a pile. X paid Don Lemon? Yes. Really? Mm-hmm. Oh, I didn't know. Well, if that's the case, then I, you know, I think economic security is important. If he's - He has a lot of money. He's still, you know, he got, when they fired him, I think they had to pay out his contract. So I don't know. He could have had more money. I think, again, can't stand what Megyn Kelly's doing, but I get it.

38:57I get it. Oh, she's very good at what she does. Yes, that's what I mean. I'm like, uh-huh. She's very good at what she does. And I talked to her before she did that. And I recommended, the other thing I recommended to Don is, if you want to stay on television, go to a big market like Los Angeles and be the anchor for the top TV station and start to do interesting things. Those guys will never go local after being national. I get it, but you could do some interesting things. That's a great kind of place because they're, anyway, you know, whatever. I just, I don't think this was a good idea. But, you know, I guess if you got a pile of money, good for you, Don.

39:30X has the money to pay these kind of things? I would think X should be. Yeah, I said get it up front, Don. Like Bitcoin or something. Get it right up front. Yeah, just be mindful. If you get fired, you might not get the severance or health care you were contractually obligated to. Speaking of which, I was in San Francisco. There's going to be some lawsuits soon because he hasn't paid any of them what he owes them. From top to bottom, the X Twitter employees. And he's using specious ideas of why, I forget what the one was. There was a couple different people told me different things they're accusing them of so they don't have to pay them.

40:07But it goes back to the same thing with this bullshit around, well, I'm a billionaire, so I can put a chill on all of media. And that is, if I'm a billionaire, I'm not subject to the nuisance of a contract. Yeah, I said I would pay you severance, but I've decided not to. Yeah, there's going to be some big lawsuits. I would say I would pay your COBRA so you could have health insurance for you and your family. Well, guess what? You can't even reach someone in HR because I've already fired them. And go ahead, sue me because I'm a billionaire. Yeah, I have a PR team. I am optimized for conflict because I'm an activist investor and I am a billionaire.

40:45And I'm going to see Matthias Doefner at Davos next week. I'm going to fuck with you because I can. Yeah, I agree. It's the same bullshit. It is. And that is the government and media, to a certain extent, we're here to push back on power when it gets – which – and too much of it is concentrated. It corrupts the system and people. What kind of billionaires would we be? Would we be good? What's that? What kind of billionaires would we be? Well, I'd like to find out. Yeah, I'd like to find out. Yeah. Don't you think we'd be good billionaires? Maybe not. It's impossible, I guess. Well, there's a lot of good billionaires.

41:19As a matter of fact, I would argue there are just as many good billionaires out there as a proportion as there are good millionaires or good poor people. I've never bought into the demonization of people who are rich. But anyways, when you get drunk on your power, most billionaires I know, as they get wealthier and more powerful, they use power judiciously and they recognize that they shouldn't abuse it. and I mean, I always took this lesson from Warren. Warren Hellman was the first billionaire I ever met and he taught me something that I have put into practice my entire career. I met him when I was in my 20s, just out of business school.

41:57Hellman Friedman, huge, probably the iconic private equity firm on the West Coast and he was a mentor of mine. I used to meet with him once a month and have lunch and I said, this firm is treated us really poorly and I'm so angry and they signed a contract and they're not paying. And I asked him, can you recommend a law firm for me? And he's like, Scott, in my 50 years in business, I have never sued anybody. And he said, if someone doesn't treat you well, unless they really are abusing you, just don't do business with them again. Yeah, they love to threaten lawsuits, these people, constantly. I'm just waiting for mine for my book.

42:34So let me get back to Don. Let me get back to this video strategy because I get it. It's so abusive. It really is. But the video strategy that they have now, now, ex-CEO Linda Yaccarino is at CES this week, getting asked why advertisers should put ads on X given the hateful content risk. She said that hate speech is an issue on every platform faces. Can they pivot to video? No. I said, you know, YouTube, Reddit, Instagram, too, would like to have a word, Twitter. Like, they're so behind. They blew all their chances early. they have TikTok. I'm sorry, I left out TikTok. Their competitors are superb and good at what they do.

43:15They have no chance. I don't see how they have any chance. This is another, you know, bullshit thing that they aren't going to, like a lot of the Twitter blue stuff is now falling off of Twitter blue, all their promises. So I don't see them being able to pivot to this at all. Sort of back in the day, one of my investors was Tim Armstrong. Yeah, a really talented, a nice man. And I don't know if it was him or his head of strategy. So what would you do if you were a decade ago? Oh, yeah, that's right. He bought it. Yeah. I mean, I would be the world's largest TV network and that your distribution platform is the internet.

43:51And a lot of word is out that video is big. And to your point, YouTube does a really good job. TikTok does a really good job. So I'm not saying, yeah, it might be the right strategy, but it feels a little bit late. It feels like they don't have the capital, the engineering talent. I would say eight years, and they were there already eight years too late. So I don't, yeah, it makes sense. But the notion that, you know, I just don't, if I were, we'll see. Look, Twitter, X has to do something, right? They have to innovate. They have to do something. They have to experiment. This is, this is. It does feel late.

44:32This is a media strategy by someone who doesn't know media, which would be Musk and Linda Iaccarino, who came from NBC. So this is her move. And she was not in programming or editorial or anything. She knows how to, you know, putting names like Tulsi Gabbard and Don Lemon out. She thinks it's going to this is she goes for the deal, the splashy deal at CES. That's not how it works anymore. It's people you don't know. It's interesting, like Mr. Beast or it's oh, it's just not. this. It's just not this. Well, it's people who are native. I will say, I watched Tulsi on Fox. Yeah, she's had some talent.

45:10She was good. And I think she's talented. I was shocked at how good she was on air. I think she's good. If I would have done a deal, maybe they just got bought, you know, they just threw so much money at them. And if that's the case, Dee Lemon, I take it back, good for you. No, it's not good. It's not good for him. He could have made just But Megyn Kelly is making bank and she controls her destiny. I'm sorry. That's a good point. I can't. Fair point. You know, you don't need it. I was talking to someone about this and they, about my own career. And they're like, why don't you come with us full time?

45:43I said, you can't afford me. You don't understand. But you know what I mean? Like, I can do better by myself. Like, you don't, things have changed and I'm not even very big. I mean, you stay at the nicest hotels in Manhattan. Oh, wait, never mind. Never mind. You go through my closets and comment on my food. I actually love your apartment. I love it. It's nice, isn't it? I love it. Actually, I'm kidding. It makes me happy to know you're there. You know, I love people's homes. I stayed with Brooke Hammerling in Los Angeles. It's a beautiful home. I don't like hotels. I'm not a hotel liker, but I love you.

46:18I love hotels. I don't. Room service. Call, scream at people. Where are my A's? I don't like it. I like your apartment quite a bit, and I don't know why I have an affection for it. I really do. And it's not because it's not that fancy. It's just really lovely. It's a lovely feeling at your apartment. Anyway, it's got a nice vibe. It's got a good vibe. It's full of love and see Alice. It's full of love. Last thing is this world of online video changing then. Where do you think it's going? I did interview Mark Thompson in an offsite for Warner Brothers. I don't know if it was off the record or not.

46:48I was never told it was, but it was a really interesting conversation. But he said, among other things, the conventional TV can no longer define us. Although he wasn't abandoning TV. That wasn't what he meant. What does that mean? Well, I think he's like, I think I was trying to get more out of him about it, actually, because it was, you know, I think he has to, they're trying to figure out where, how to, how to move that, where and how to move their stuff and control it. a little like, you know, he said it wasn't one thing. I'm going to just say what he said. He said it wasn't a shift and lift from or lift and shift from what he did at the New York Times, which was move it over to digital while keeping the print thing going.

47:34Because he thought video, like TV distribution linear would be around for several decades. And I would agree with him. And it's already there. So why not take advantage of it? But that you have to sort of move everything think of it as a digital product over time. And he said, we have to own it and not be subject to other people's platforms. It was interesting. He's a smart man. But what strategy, if you were to define, maybe you didn't get this information, how Mark Thompson is going, what is the strategy or the shift in programming or distribution that we'll see under Mark Thompson that we weren't going to see under Chris Lipp?

48:13A subscription. A subscription server. That's my, she didn't, say it, but there's no other way. Like what they did at the New York Times, some of it's free. You mean like CNN Plus? Yes, exactly. That's what I said. I said the problem with CNN Plus was directionally was correct, but there was no CNN. It was like Hamburger Plus without Hamburger, right? Like, I don't get it. Why don't you? But I think some of the stuff, I think he's right. Some news does lend itself to television, fast news, fast moving. But I think the dependence on the platforms like Twitter or YouTube or whatever. The monetization's not there.

48:50And I think the Times was doing that too, just the way everybody gave all their content to Netflix and regretted it, I think, in a lot of ways, and didn't own it themselves and take the cost of doing it. I think that's his inclination. I think he's correct, that it has to be a product that people want to buy, a news product that people want to buy from CNN. And some of it is free, some of it's not. I mean, he has to, you know, they could look at Netflix is now very successfully doing advertising. Amazon is about to make its ad tier for default for its millions of Prime video subscribers. So, you know, there's a lot of ad stuff in a different and interesting way.

49:30So they have some interesting opportunities and he's very canny. So I don't know. What would you do if you were running CNN? I would try and elegantly integrate it into kind of the max offering and always have a CNN bug where you could click it and they did, you know, they had six, 10, 20 minute loops where you could get your quick hit of news and then you could go vertical, quick hit of news around politics, around business. To me, it kind of becomes the ingredient news brand for the subscription service max. I don't think it's a standalone subscription service. I think it's the ingredient, it's the nutra suite of Macs around news.

50:10And because when you think about it, the biggest players, whether it's Disney Plus or Netflix, what they lack is news. So it's the astrotame or I don't know what you want to call it. It's the intel inside of Macs. I'll tell you the most interesting thing he said offhand, which was this idea of you wake up and you're like, I want to know more about that. I want like an AI, you know, that their news done by people is then applied, you know, digitally and with AI, with generative AI so that you start to get, they're exploring deals with open AI that was just reported yesterday. And he didn't say as much, but obviously everyone's talking to them.

50:50But that you have some kind of relationship with your news. It's not because Google laid off hundreds of jobs, voice activity assistance software. This is all going to be AI generated. And he had some ideas around that, and I thought that was smart. So he's working it out, but it's definitely a transition. David Zaslav was there. He was wearing his David Zaslav outfit and everything. But it was interesting. He's a really smart thinker. I think this is going to be a great year for CNN. Yeah, I do too. He's very, Mark is very thoughtful. I really enjoy talking to him. And I can see he's working it out.

51:29I think he's working. It's not going to be unlike what happened at the New York Times using this amazing brand and their huge amounts of reporters to really bring to bear. There's monetization there. And as opposed to like Linda doing these one-off deals and it's just not an editorial product. Very similar to what happened at Yahoo. Anyway, let's pivot to a listener question.

51:57This question comes from Brian. Let's listen. Hi, Scott and Cara. My name is Brian, and I'm calling from Los Angeles. I'm a longtime listener of the show, and I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. My question is on technology in healthcare. Specifically, where is it? There's a huge need for competition at the payer level, at the provider level, at the facility level. I see Amazon moving into primary care and prescriptions, but within the healthcare system I work in, No one actually considers that competition. What about surgeries or inpatient care or health plans? I feel kind of like a conspiracy theorist telling people that tech is coming, tech is coming.

52:39But is it? I would love your thoughts. Thanks so much. interesting i mean it's gone on for decades now you know google and um others were in the health care the member health vault microsoft and they were always gonna this was always gonna apply um and it you know now it's now it's ai that's gonna save us like it's gonna know what you have by speaking into it and this and that so i don't know scott what do you think i don't want to say i've given up on the notion that in the current construct the technology is going to save us so So I'm sort of, it's been interesting living in the UK contrasting or comparing and contrasting the approach to healthcare.

53:18And where I start is that it's almost impossible to fix a system where infant mortality and obesity and depression are greater, despite the fact we spend on average 12 and a half grand per citizen, as opposed to Australia, Canada, and the UK that spend$6 ,500. It's literally arguably the most wasteful biggest tax on the American economy is the U.S. health care system. And if you want evidence of that, just look at every hospital system and insurance company that every year increases their earnings and their profits through regulatory capture. They have quietly weaponized government and have created a ton of moats around any – even Google and Amazon can't crack this nut.

54:02Well, I think one medical – I'm going there tomorrow. I have some – I want to – I'm a member. I love One Medical. We're talking about a pimple on the pimple of the elephant right now. Yes, agreed, agreed, agreed. And where I am is gigantic structural change over the long term, and that is I'm an advocate for, if you look at the UK system, kind of what you call the, I don't want to call it the bottom 90, but 90th percentile and lower access NHS. And I've accessed NHS. The waits are longer. It can be frustrating. But there's something really wonderful knowing that if your wife gets lung cancer, it doesn't mean you're going to go bankrupt.

54:37You know, that is six of the 10 happiest countries in the world are socialist countries in northern Europe. And it's not only a function of what you have, but absence from having things taken away from you, specifically your dignity if you get sick. We do not have the absence from that fear in the United States. So the question is, how do you disrupt the traditional system? And where I am is the following is that Medicare each year for the next 65 years should be lowered by a year until it's all Medicare. We need nationalized health care. The only way you're going to get there. Hillary couldn't do it.

55:07is to say, all right, every year we're going to lower the age of Medicare until we do away with the most profitable, unearned regulatory capture profits in history, and that is the privatization of health care. I don't want to say I've given up. There'll be some disruption, but we need massive structural change in America. It's not, you know, doctors hate it, patients hate it. It's really government doesn't really like it. It's really, you know, how we develop drugs is also, it's also, it's so antiquated. I just find it's, whenever I feel sick, I feel frustrated because I don't even understand, I don't understand it.

55:46And I'm a very aggressive consumer, you know, in that. And there's hacks. We need better tax policy because we're so narcissistic or jingo, whatever you want to call it. I mean, Japan tries to figure out ways to incorporate exercise into people's lives. There's just, we don't want kids to eat well, because guess what? Once they get obese, there's a ton of money in it for us. Yeah. I call it the diabetes industrial complex. I wonder where you got that. Anyways, so there are too many economic incentives and too many people making too much money to pretend that they give a good goddamn around the long-term health benefits of American citizens.

56:26And government needs to pass a law and say, okay, okay, we're done trying to fine-tune this. Too many of us have been weaponized. We're going to lower Medicare, which is nationalized healthcare and healthcare for all, which by the way, the majority of Medicare recipients are pretty happy with. And also on a cost basis, it's pretty efficient. And every year for the next 65 years, we're going to lower it a year. We'll see. We don't think there's much tech in it. There's tech applied to it. And people have great hopes for gender of AI, Brian, but we've seen this before. So it really does take a bigger effort on behalf of the government.

56:58and industry to make this turnaround. But yeah, there's only one payer. There's only one if they all complain about it too. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see. By the way, next week, we're going to try something a little different with our listener mail. We'll be taking calls directly from you during our regular taping. A little scary. That's right. You can ask us your questions to our faces. Well, over digital, so you can't touch us. I mean, as much as Scott might like that. But call 855-51-PIVOT to tell us what you might like to ask and leave your name, age, and where you're from and where we can reach you.

57:34We won't be able to fit everybody in, but our producers might be reaching out to you to join the show. So get those questions in now. You can talk to Scott directly. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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58:59Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. So I'm going to do a quick prediction, and I want to take a license here and talk about a win or something that really moved me this week. My prediction is that Coinbase is the AOL. You know, I said it. The stock's up. I mean, the stock has just skyrocketed. I think it's overvalued. I think it's a good firm that's well run. I think it has a role to play, and they'll find new ways. But it's like AOL. it's going to dramatically shed a ton of value, I think, over the next few years because it's been the on-ramp into crypto and people no longer need a safe, you've got mail kind of friendly place to buy crypto.

59:37So occasionally you see something or a piece of content that inspires you. And I bond with my kids over media. I send them Tom Petty, which they don't listen to. And they send me rap that I don't get. But anyways, we watch full shows together and I'm watching with my 13-year-old. Have you seen The Last of Us? Yeah, parts of it. It hasn't caught on with me yet, but that one with the gays, I saw the gays one. You're stealing my thunder. So I have no interest in anything around the zombie apocalypse. It's a genre that has no interest in me. I haven't watched a single episode of The Walking Dead, nor will I ever, but my son wanted to watch The Last of Us, and I'm like, oh God, here we go again.

1:00:17Episode one. I think Pedro Pascal is a leading man. I love him. I loved him in Narcos. He's the best guy with a mask on in The Mandalorian. Episode three, which you just referenced, is so moving and such a great piece of art. And it's about, I won't give it away, but it's about a survivalist slash prepper played by Nick Offerman from Parks and Rec. And then, but the story is about, he helps protect somebody and he falls in love. And it's just the story of these two men. And the reason why it was such a nice moment for my son and I, because we were talking about it afterwards. And the thing I take from it, I've been thinking a lot about masculinity.

1:01:02I'm trying to write a book on it. And here you had a guy who brings what Richard Reeves, who's sort of my Yoda around this stuff, and is able to kind of articulate the things I'm feeling and seeing. But he talks about the notion of men and their need to create surplus value. What do we mean by that? that when you become a man, it isn't about reading from some religious scripture or having sex or turning 18 or getting a job, that when you become a man is when you start adding surplus value. And as a boy, your return on investment is negative. People give you love, they give you resources, they give you attention, they spoil you.

1:01:37And quite frankly, other than the people who love you, you don't add a lot back to society. And some people never grow out of that. Some people just for their whole lives take more than they return. And his notion is, and I love this, that what it means to be a man is you add surplus value. That the time, the attention, and the resources you take in, that you are so skilled and you acquire so many strengths and competences that you produce more than you consume. You add surplus value. And I absolutely love that as a metric. And here's this guy, this prepper and the survivalist who is so talented.

1:02:12And obviously, those politics are a little bit crazy, but this guy is so talented. that not only can he put up, create a compound with electrified fences that zap the zombies, but he raises chickens. He's a great cook. He's figured out a way to maintain running hot water in the middle of a zombie. He's so talented. But the surplus value is that he finds someone to protect and to love. And I absolutely love that notion. It's a really good show. May I I recommend another one. This is a gay love story, really. But is Sanjana Piro on, did you ever see that? I didn't. Please, please avail yourself to that.

1:02:53And it's got a very similar vibe and it's about two women. And they're in a virtual reality setting. And I think you will weep, weep giant tears. I love the idea of this notion of defining manhood and masculinity as surplus value. And then I thought this represented that. And this is the conversation I was having with my 13-year-old. I'm like, this is what men do. They develop the skills and they acquire the strength such that they can protect and love others. And there's this great line at the end. You know, this guy, Nick Offerman says at the very end of it, and I won't spoil the end of it, he says, you gave me purpose.

1:03:28And that's, I love that. I'm like, that's what it means to be a man. You find purpose and your purpose is to protect others. I just thought it was wonderful. Anyways, my win, episode three, season one, Last of Us. I'm surprised you haven't seen it. It's so funny because for a while, when it appeared, people went crazy for it. May I ask you a question? Yes. Doesn't that apply to women? Masculinity is not the domain. Right. Do you want me to answer you? Yeah, I'm going to, let me finish. Okay. Does it, don't, aren't women supposed to protect and add at the same time? Masculinity and femininity are social constructs that we invent.

1:04:06They are not the domain of people born as men and women. However, people born as men and people born as women have instinctual predilections and competences that oftentimes lend them towards more feminine or more masculine attributes. I believe femininity is more about nurturing and more about being loving and also protecting. And I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculine attributes. And I think a lot of men, also the men I'm usually attracted to as friends, can indicate and represent wonderful feminine attributes. But I think masculinity, which typically, typically people born as men have an easier time embracing, is, again, needs redefinition.

1:04:49It needs a modern aspirational definition. Because unfortunately right now, anything that is seen as masculine is conflated with toxicity, and that's bullshit. It's not sequestered from women, nor is femininity sequestered from men. We absolutely appreciate femininity. I would argue it's more nurturing, more loving, more graceful, less prone to judgment. Maybe we need new words. Maybe we need new words. I'm up for it, sister, because we need a better dialogue around this stuff. We need to respect the fact that most people, 90 to 95 % of people, identify as binary, and the attributes and competences and feelings and instincts they feel are wonderful.

1:05:33And that doesn't mean it's sequestered from the other gender. You know, I think you demonstrate a lot of wonderful masculine attributes. I'd like to believe I demonstrate a lot of wonderful feminine attributes. But we can celebrate both those things. Need new words. Anyway, that's a good one. It's a great show. You should see it. But I promise you, if you watch Black Mirror, that San Junipero, it'll make your heart sing. It's beautiful. The same way. Black Mirror. Can you say it again? Black Mirror, San Junipero. Yep. Black Mirror, San Junipero. It's very tech-focused, too, which is interesting, and it's really cool.

1:06:05Anyway, we'll be back next week. Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Bros and Emil Saverio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Box Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Season 1, Episode 3, The Last of Us.

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