E.U. Tech Regulation, Bud Light Sales, and Kara Tries the Apple Vision Pro

23:46What is going to happen? Europe has been quite aggressive in very significant ways, as usual with tech. And they're aiming at Google's$225 billion advertising business, which is 80 % of its annual revenue. Well, one, okay. So to a certain extent, it's kind of barking at the moon a little bit because I don't know if you can break up a company that's domained in another country. What you can do is prohibit it from operating in your country until it complies with certain laws. The thing about the EU is despite it being the largest economy in the world as a whole, I think, or maybe not since Brexit, although Britain is shrinking.

24:24I think the EU has shown remarkable progress the last few years in terms of coordination. And you want to talk about, you know, we argue that our states are so different. The difference between the political viewpoints in Greece and Ireland and Sweden is pretty dramatically different. So I think they've demonstrated a lot of leadership here. I think GDPR was, the legislation itself was ineffective, But what it did was show an ability to pass legislation against tech, which we have been unable to do. And they are making progress. And when the European Union, and they're very thoughtful and they're very smart, says this company should be broken up, I think American regulators do take notice.

25:05It also probably sends a chill across these companies in terms of acquisition. Now, you could argue that's good or bad because smaller companies want to be acquired. But this is, there is a theme here or a philosophy, if you will, that we might be at peak big tech. And it does feel, it does feel, and I've been waiting for this moment for a long time, that the immunities are beginning to kick in on a regulatory level. That there are more cases against them that look like they might have some chances of passing or have more veracity around them. I think this is a good thing. I do not understand the legal ramifications.

25:39Yeah, I think they'll push. I think they will continue to push back. But, you know, you have the Justice Department under John Cantor, I think, is moving forward on this rather aggressively. But they haven't for a long time. And Google can argue, look, there's Amazon now, there's this and that. They have a chance to formally respond to the charges now. If they're found guilty of antitrust violations, they could be charged up to 10 percent of total revenue, which is around$28 billion. That's a big fine. They can pay the fine, but that's a big fine. That's not five and that's not, you know, the amounts they paid in the past.

26:10I think, you know, they'll continue to push it until you say there's lots of competition and then now AI, la, la, la, la, that kind of stuff. I do think in this case, Europe is showing some teeth that U.S. has not shown, right? And the fact that they're keeping to investigate it, you're sort of like, how much investigation do you need? Take it to court. Take it to court. See what happens. Obviously, they want the best thing they have, but they haven't ever even tried in a significant way. And you could argue the ups and downs of the Microsoft case, but I do think that was effective, you know, because things were pushed back on it.

26:43It still hadn't it had an impact and an effect when you actually sue. Meanwhile, in a further challenge of big tech powers, the EU voted to push forward legislation regulating artificial intelligence. The AI Act would require generative AI systems to be reviewed before commercial release. It would also ban real time facial recognition and systems that would carry a, quote, unacceptable level of risk. You know, again, maybe too far. I know Sam Altman had blanched at this at the same time. Then he said he wouldn't. One of the things they're also trying to do is put guardrails around how AI gets trained.

27:19Tech companies are going to fight that. Josh Hawley and Richard Blumenthal just introduced legislation, which is really interesting, in the Senate this week explicitly saying Section 230 should not protect generative AI. It's not clear whether it does, right? I think a lot of people argue and critics say it would quash innovation. But I don't think it is protected. You know, I think that's up for grabs. But they want to specifically carve it out. Lobbyists want regulation to focus on applications, not development. and the proposed legislation in the EU would let creators ask for a share of the profits when their work is used in AI projects.

27:53Again, the copyright issue. So, you know, there's a lot here. There's a lot going on here. And of course, Europe's leading the way rather than the U.S. Again, once again, once again. Yeah, there's a lot here. So the idea of kind of a license, so an FDA sort of makes sense. An FDA for AI saying, look, these things have a direct impact on democracy, on people's mood, on propaganda. So the idea of some sort of regulatory body that needs to approve these things. The issue is for the EU, if they have their own FDA and the U.S. is the Wild West, the reality is the U.S. will garner more investment dollars and their generative AI companies will move further faster than EU.

28:33That's the problem because, you know, the move fast and break things, as many as externalities as it has, it has the benefit of pouring fuel on innovation. You know, people, they do move faster and they break shit, but they also learn fast. So the licensing model, the other thing is the licensing model, I think is a bad idea, because typically what you end up with, and a lot of people would argue this is true of the FDA, is it benefits the incumbents. And that is the only people with the capital and the connections and the people making these decisions in terms of their job offers after they leave that administrative body that this type of legislation or licensing, if you will, helps the incumbents.

29:14So I would like to see something on a multilateral basis, on a defense basis with NATO, and I'd like to see the European Union and our adversaries and the U.S. cooperate on this stuff. The same way we cooperate on things like bioweapons and nuclear weapons, I think there needs to be a regulatory agency around all of this. Explicitly saying that this does not get a protective halo or coverage from 230, I think is a great idea because part of the problem. One of the reasons we've gotten this level of teen depression and weaponization of elections and misinformation is that the original legislation in, I think, 1997 around 230 specifically said protect the emergence of nascent technology firms.

29:53These companies are already not nascent. OpenAI just raised money at a$29 billion market cap. They don't need protection. People are excited about this, but they need to be held to the same standards that every other media company is held to, including News Corp, who just got fined$750 million for misinformation. That is a fraction of the misinformation that runs rampant every day on Meta and Google. So I think that there's a lot about this. You know, it depends what you're looking at. But I specifically like an explicit removal of protection from 230 because I think it'll force them to be more cautious.

30:28And then the final thing I've never understood. And one of the reasons I'm an AI optimist is I've never understood why this technology, if it can build missiles, hypersonic missiles, why can't it build missile shields? Why can't generative AI be a defensive weapon as well as an offensive weapon? But what I would like to see, and I think you will see, and I think it's important, is that you have licensing agreements and tools that say, all right, this Notion AI, which helps you write and organize a memo, a book, has used a lot of content. 0.0093 % of this was informed by the work of Maya Angelou or Malcolm Gladwell or whoever.

31:08And there's a licensing organization that collects royalties and then distributes it back to those content authors. Explain what Notion is. You use it a lot. You talk about it a lot. Well, it's AI for writing. You can put in a memo you write and say, make this sound like more authoritative, or please find six data points around the economy or make this tighter or shorten this or summarize this in a series of emails or write a cover email for this or, you know, just make sure it's a co-pilot for writing. When you just bark instructions for it to write something, you get something very vanilla back.

31:39But there was a lot of writers were very Puritan and turned their noses up at a thesaurus. And of course, they all use, we all use thesauruses now. So I find this is exceptionally powerful, but you - You put your book in it? No. And I have not what I'm doing. So my next book is going to be on masculinity. What I have been doing is saying, here are my thoughts around masculinity and key themes. Can you give me four ideas? And here are the eight chapters I'm thinking of doing. What chapters have I missed? What additional questions can I answer for you? How can I tighten this section? What could, what points of data are, can you give me eight interesting points of data that highlight?

32:23So it's a copy editor. It's interesting. It's a very good. That's exactly right. So it fixes, I'm just on their choice. It fixes grammar and spelling, makes shorter or longer, translate, explain, edit in voice and tone, use simpler language, et cetera. Yeah, sometimes I read my stuff and I'm like, I wrote this when I was angry. I need to tone it down. I want to be, I want to sound more authoritative here. I want to sound more expert here. I want to show, I want to incorporate more data about young men and addiction. I mean, these things are just really powerful tools. But just the same way Madonna gets compensated when her music is playing on different radio stations.

32:56And for example, I think a really interesting company I'm actually looking at is just Adobe's Firefly technology, which is a design generator of AI. Because they made a point, and they were visionary here ahead of the curve. because what they did was they only have design where it's IP friendly. They either own the designs or they figured out a way to compensate people. So they've already gone one step ahead and said, if you use Firefly, which my 12-year-old uses now, and he's playing around with it, which I absolutely love, you're not in any way violating anyone's IP rights. Which they do in the past with pictures.

33:32A lot of these sites have offered pictures. Getty and Corbis. And but I'm going to take I mean, I'm I now and I'm sure you do, too. I have a body of work that's large enough between my books and newsletters and everything. And I'm going to feed it into an LLM and I'm going to start playing with a bot and see if someone were to show up and ask this. I get and I'm bragging now. I get a lot of emails every day, mostly from young men asking for advice. And I thought, well, what if I fed everything in from office hours, from all the emails, all the books I've written, all the newsletters? into an LLM and created a bot, and I'm going to ask her questions and see how good a job it does of coming back with answers that feel like something I would have said.

34:14Well, you and Martha Stewart, that's exactly what she said. She said, I have so much content. If I fed it in, wouldn't it be able to answer people's questions? Even stuff I've forgotten, I recommend it. One of the things that's interesting here is, to me, is that Europe is, it'll be interesting to be in Europe to talk to Europeans about this, But even if they do things in ways that tech companies in the U.S., which they're aiming at mostly, don't like, they're moving in the correct direction and they're moving quickly, right? And I think one of the things that is important for our legislators to do is to do the same and not make the same exact mistakes over and over and over again with these things.

34:50And because people, in this case, people are very concerned. I was at a dinner with the Livingston Awards. And we had a dinner afterwards. And, you know, the topic turned to AI, of course, and so they, of course, looked at me. And one of the things was, one, how incredibly people are confused about it in ways that I, even reporters, right, really didn't understand it. And kept talking, looking at Notion AI, they kept saying, well, we have to make sure copy editors keep their jobs. And I was like, why? You know, and I said, I'm not being rude. I just, it's like, you use spreadsheets. You use, you know, you don't do a lot of things because it's automated.

35:31And in this case, these AIs do it better. They write headlines better. And what they were doing was more like, well, we need to stop them and let people continue to do headlines. And I was like, why? Like, AI can write 10 of them and two of them are good and a human can pick the one that's good. It doesn't have to remove humans. Let me say these people were furious at me except for a regular person who was like, that makes total sense to me. And I was like, it was really interesting. It was really interesting. You know, when you talk to writers about Notion AI or Genre of AI, they get very touchy.

36:05And it's because the incumbents don't like innovation. They don't. Anything that threatens their job, they just generally find is immoral. And what I say to the most talented writers are the most talented people that understand this technology are going to make more money. and the people who don't understand it and just get angry and aren't willing to learn it are going to make less money. It's just that simple. The people who figured out computers went from typewriters to computers and spellcheck. I'll give you an example. I've written a book on how to achieve financial security. I have a viewpoint on it.

36:38I think there's an algorithm, an algebra to it, an equation to it, best practices, and a lot of life lessons in how to achieve economic security. And the title, the working title right now is the algebra of wealth, achieving economic security. My publisher came back and said, we talked to the sales team and we didn't like it. And they didn't like it. They feel like it's too wonky. And they showed me all these books and all these books are basically like how to get rich. And I'm like, I just don't want to be that straightforward. I don't like that. I feel that feels very douchebag. I went to chat GPT while we're on this call.

37:10And I said, in the voice of Scott Galloway, give me 10 book titles about best practices and strategies for achieving economic security throughout the course of your 20s, 30s, and 40s. And it came back with a bunch of like 10 ideas, and a couple of them were good. And one of them was money code, an unapologetic path to prosperity. And I'm like, that's better than anything we've come up with today. So as a means of brainstorming, I mean, you still have to pick the right one. Yeah. Well, look, all of this also needs to be regulated. At the same time. Agreed. So it'll be interesting to see if Europe's going to pull ahead.

37:49And if the U.S. doesn't act, we're going to get things that may be too strict and cause people like Samuels said, I want to do that kind of thing. So obviously they're going to push back on things they don't like. It's in their self-interest. But we'll see what happens. But Europe, good for you, Europe. You're at least working on it. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the Bud Light marketing controversy and things around it and take a listener mail question. Thank you. integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more.

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40:44Scott, we're back with our second big story. Bud Light sales are in a slump following an April controversy in a marketing collaboration with trans influencer Dylan Mulvaney. Sales are down 23 % compared to the same week last year. That said, Bud Light's market share has been sliding for more than a decade from 19 % in 2010 to 10 % in March. It's slid another 2.7 % since the Mulvaney campaign. Last week, Modelo Especial took over Bud Light as a top-selling beer. This is a trend that was happening. This accelerated it. Both brands, however, are made by Anheuser-Busch InBev, along with Corona, Michelob, and a bunch of others.

41:20Just for clarification, Modelo is owned by Anheuser-Busch InBev everywhere, except the U.S. Except the U.S. Yeah, it's Constellation Brands here in the U.S. Last month, AB InBev's CEO said, declining Bud Light sales represent only 1 % of its global volume, but shares of Bud Light parent company have fallen by 15 % amid broader S &P gains. There's a lot of hypocrisy here. They also market to race car drivers. They also market to all kinds of things. This one set them off in ways they were, they said a lot of false things about what this was. It was just a can that they made for this trans person.

41:59You've talked about Nike's Colin Kaepernick's campaign as an example of a win. And talk about this one from a marketing point of view. Look, this was I don't think there's getting this has been a disaster for Bud Light in the sense that they've gone, I think, from 10 percent to 7 percent share. And I find it tragic that as far as I can tell, this lovely young woman doing fairly innocuous TikToks, the conservative, the right, who is very transphobic, which means they hate trans people. I don't use that word lightly, decides to go after a company. And it was effective. And I worry that it's going to lead to more.

42:40Anything that's seen as any embrace of progressive values, they're going to start this bullshit. And Modelo has now become number one, which, by the way, is a wonderful beer. But what you have here is that when Nike embraced Colin Kaepernick, they just did the math. Two-thirds of their revenue come from outside of the U.S. and two-thirds of their revenue within the U.S. come from people under the age of 30. People under the age of 30 embrace Colin Kaepernick and recognize the U.S. has real problems with systemic racism. So those people burning their Nikes represented about 2 % of their revenue.

43:15They had to go out and buy their first pair of Nikes to burn them. Bud Light is different. You know, Bud Light has, I think, a large group of buyers who - Men. It's still white men, I think. Yeah. And I wouldn't say that they're anti-trans. What I would say is they don't want something politicized. And that is, and I don't know what the focus groups say, but I think they just look at this and think, I think, here's the bottom line. The reason why you go from 10 to 7 % on a political issue represents that your foundation to begin with is not that strong. And over the course of the last 10, 20 years, the drinks industry has been moving away from beers back to spirits.

43:54And so beer is resting on a fairly weak foundation. So, for example, when Colin Kaepernick and the NFL sort of embraced him and viewership went down for a little bit. But if you want to watch the Green Bay Packers, you're going to watch the NFL. With Bud Light and beer, there are so many substitutes that it's pretty easy to say, you know what? I just don't want to even understand the issue or deal with it. I just heard this controversy. I'm going to try Coors Light or I'm going to try Modelo. So what this really reflects is an industry that's just very vulnerable. So when CNN crashes because of these controversies, the controversies themselves are pneumonia.

44:36They shouldn't kill you, but there's this opportunistic infection can kill someone with a weak immunity system because cable television is in structural decline. That's a fair point. You know, Mark Cuban has talked a lot about this, although he's on the stop, ignore these people kind of things. And one of the things he's been saying lately on a lot of stuff is like just friggin relax about it. The point he made is there's a reason almost all the top 10 market cap companies in the U.S. can be considered woke. It's good business. He told this to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in an interview. First, a dip in market cap is meaningless.

45:06You have to realize there aren't many individual owners of stocks. Almost all ownership is via funds and most trading is quantitative. it's also not like a drop because of tens of thousands of individual holders, holder stocks. You know, so essentially he's saying you keep investing in politics as you see fit, but without publicizing it. And if you do publicize it, that's unpopular, just wait it out, essentially on most of the things that if you have a good product, it doesn't really matter. That's what he's saying. People like your product, like Disney. Disney's the opposite example, right? There's no dip in Disney business from what I can tell from all of Ron DeSantis' attempts to ruin them.

45:42And I guess they could organize it. I think the question is whether boycotts do work. Bud has been very targeted and very, I would say, unfairly because the other thing they did was the reaction. They fired the marketing person. They sort of backed off. They got more right-wingy. You know what I mean? So then it feels like, what's his name? Bob Chapek. Like, okay, you're not against him. You're for him. I think that was their dithering was, I think. I think they should have. I do think I love ABM Bev. I know the people there, the really good people, they're really smart. They're fighting an uphill battle.

46:20Vera's instructional decline. They do a great job. The stock will come back. It's ridiculous. They blew it on this one. They should have said, we embrace youth. We embrace talented young people. We embrace, we are a function of character and freedom and liberty. and people get to present themselves however they want. Yeah, yeah. That was an opportunity. They missed it. Nike sees the opportunity. They missed it. Because they're not going to be forgiven. The crazies don't go, oh, they get it now. We're coming back. There's no accommodating these people. They just want to be fucking angry and shame and scare and intimidate people.

46:58Right. That's exactly right. And I thought about that. I thought, oh, this is an opportunity for me. I'm a narcissist, right? So I bought a Bud Light at a bar and I was going to take a picture and put it out on Twitter. And I thought, am I just further politicizing this and going to hurt the issue? Because I don't drink Bud Light. Yeah, we could have a better tasting beer at the center of a culture war, by the way. Well, it's not a great tasting beer. But all of a sudden I'm like, in an effort to virtue signal, am I just adding to the problem? Because I think a lot of people who decided not to buy Bud Light are just like, I just don't want to be involved in politics, period.

47:35And anything that reeks of any politics, regardless of what side, I don't have the time. I just would rather buy a beer that is not political. Modelo feels pretty nonpolitical. This was foisted on Bud Light. I'm not saying it's Bud Light's fault. They seized an opportunity and they took it, as they say. Right. But my point is, you know, life's unfair. And for whatever reason, this thing got politicized. And I think a lot of people are like, I just don't want to be involved in consumer products that have any political taint whatsoever, regardless of whose fault it is. Well, you know, I do think, I don't know.

48:02I feel like Disney under Iger has done the right thing the way they've done it. They've just stuck to their guns and that's what we're doing. And you don't like it, go somewhere else. But this is why Disney wins. Yeah. Disney is singular. What, are you going to go to Magic Mountain? You're going to Knott's Berry Farm? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. I don't think they say it quite like that. That's not a very nice way to say it. Yeah, we're all you got. What's interesting is the sort of the grievance grifter culture that's built around this stuff now with the right wing. and they did it for CRT. The trans has seemed to have stuck for them for a little bit, at least.

48:38The bud thing. There's a whole grievance grifter groups around these things and they're making money at it. They're mad at Chick-fil-A. Oh my God. Like, because they, I forget what they did. Because they're no longer discriminating against homosexuals? I don't know what they did. They did something that was, I can't remember what they did. They did, whatever. They didn't like it. They don't like Fox News. Like, they're going to eat themselves. They're going to eat themselves this way. In Michigan, the real, the medium election deniers are rhinos now. You know, the people who are like demented are not demented enough.

49:13And so there is a big fight with the GOP in Michigan. And meanwhile, the Democrats have a majority in everything the first time in 40 years. And so it's really, you sort of sit there. I'm like, how many of these angry things, even though I think some, you know, Ben Shapiro makes his business of being angry at everybody and it works. And at some point, people don't like being mad. Oh, I think it was Chick-fil-A, they embraced diversity, inclusion, and hiring, equity, inclusion, and hiring. They make a good chicken sandwich, my sons say. Didn't stop my sons from going. It's hands down the most innovative, singular, quick service restaurant.

49:51I mean, it's a phenomena. Chick-fil-A is a phenomena. I understand it. I still don't love it. But, you know, people can make a decision any way they want to make in terms of buying. You know what Chick-fil-A does? It's really legendary, real quick. is they get thousands of applications for a manager job and you have to come up with, I think,$10 ,000 or$20 ,000. And then they loan you a bunch of money. So you're an owner. And they have tapped into what is the key in all hospitality. And that is the owner is on-site at every Chick-fil-A. Oh, interesting. Well, Chick-fil-A is now woke people in case you're interested.

50:22Go for fun. But you know what I thought of when I saw that the market share had gone from 10 % to 7 % based on, I thought, you know what's going to happen here, Cara? We're going to see AI, generative AI, fake videos of woke people endorsing a product produced by competitive products where they'll inflame the right and they'll say, don't buy this product that are fake, produced by the competitor. I mean, this is where the shit goes. Yeah, because they're so stupid. Let me just say, the whole bud thing was started by probably one of the largest fatheads in the area, Matt Walsh, who is anti-trans.

51:02He's transphobic in a really disturbing way. He had advised conservatives to, quote, pick a few strategic targets and make them pay dearly. Of course, now they're going after everything because they're manic and rabid. And so they're just attacking everything. They're just attacking everything. And they're hoping this trans thing continues. It's not going to, but they're hoping it does. I think people are, I think you're right. People are concerned about their jobs. They're concerned about gas prices. They're concerned about inflation, which is down. They're concerned about lots of things. I don't think they're concerned about, most people are not concerned about that.

51:36I think there is a small group of people who are, no question. But they live in a state of constant rage and anger against anything that's not like themselves. Ranger. Ranger. Whatever. Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. It comes from Harry from Stockholm, Sweden. The email, I'll read it. Hey, Scott and Kara, yeah, in that order. Love, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Love the show. Been a listener since episode one. You talk often about Twitter and lately about Linda Iaccarino. It's all fun and insightful, but sometimes it feels a bit like you're kicking someone already down.

52:13What would you do? We're nice to Linda Iaccarino, Harry, by the way. What would you do in her role? What are some strategic actions you would do as media brand strategy and comms specialists? Harry, I'm going to start. I don't think we kick her. We have given her more praise than we give her praise. She deserves it, by the way. She's a very good ad person. We just think she's gone into an impossible situation. So what would we do? Scott, I'm going to give this to you because I'm not an expert in brand strategy advertising the way you are. comms. I could probably getting Elon to shut up would be my first move, but I don't think it's possible.

52:49But if I could do that, that's what I would do. I would disappear him from the situation, ask him to stop tweeting for six months, et cetera, et cetera. That's what I would start with from a media perspective and just trot him out and say, and just wave, smile and wave essentially. So that's what I would do from that perspective. Scott, what would you do? Because she's certainly capable of fixing or helping get this place better. But there were talented ad people at Twitter before this, before this. But go ahead, Scott. I think she should do her job while wearing a mixed reality headset at all times.

53:24I'm going to adopt the language of Tim Cook here. What would I do if I were Linda Iaccarino? I wouldn't be in this position. This is no, I mean, okay, The bull case is the following. We're talking about her. It raises her profile. She won't get blamed when she's fired and she will be fired. This is what I would do if I were Linda Yaccarino, and she's probably done this. I would have an employment contract that says that if I am not fired for cause and causes, I commit a felony or list it, that I forward vest all compensation for five years. And you need to put that money in escrow because you're a lying motherfucker who doesn't pay his employees.

54:05and I would cover my ass. I understand that she's doing it. I understand why she's doing it. It elevates her profile. It's an incredible platform. We're all talking about her. She will not survive this. He is not a man of his word. He makes scapegoats of other people. He blames other people. He throws them under the bus and then he refuses to pay them thinking, just try and sue me. I have 100 lawyers. I'm just not going to pay you. There are people at Twitter who still have not been paid. There are - Lots of them. I saw a bunch the other day. And they have to sue the guy. And so they have to try and sue the richest man in the world.

54:44So what would I do? I would be all about that employment agreement. All right. But assume he would shut up. What would you do to Twitter? I'm going to put you - Karen, that's just - I know it's impossible, but he's hairy. Assume I have a full head of hair. Okay, assume you have a full head of hair. What would I do? I would hope that he gets distracted with something else. I would hire back, what was his name, Yoel Roth. I would try and massively beef up the safety system. I would try and innovate around some type of product. I'd get rid of this ridiculous, I'd try and turn the blue check into something that actually means something again and move to subscription.

55:25I think that ship sailed, though. You're probably right. I would hire a bunch of people to try and figure out how it could be some sort of input into an LLM, and they might make money there by creating sort of this ongoing pulse of information or content that informs an interesting new LLM or generative AI Twitter. She's got to experiment. She's got to do something. Quite frankly, she's got to go outside of her comfort zone because this is just a shitty place to advertise. and she's trying to spin chicken shit into chicken salad. So, you know, I think she's been given an impossible, she's working for a company that's experienced the greatest structural decline in revenues in history over a billion dollars, working for an unpredictable person who has a total lack of regard for other people that work for them.

56:14So, you know, good luck with that. And I don't think there is a right strategy here. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard given he's there. That's the problem, Harry. He's sitting there like Mount fucking Everest of hate right in the middle of it. And so you really can't do much. You can't get around it. You can't get over it. You can't get under it. And we think Linda's very talented. Interestingly enough, bringing it back to Martha Stewart, she was like, it could be the greatest news distribution platform in the world. And it just it's become a snake pit. She was very early. Martha was on it in 2009. She's like, it's useless to me now, you know, as a marketer.

56:53And she takes every, listen, this is a woman who went down to, you know, to every garden club to sell her book back in the day. She did every, this is someone who knows how to market, right? She did everything to sell and gin up interest in her and stuff like that. And she's like, I don't, it could be great. Everyone sees that. And there's all kinds of things you do then. And you have all these great relationships with news media companies. You sort of program against Facebook. You program against Google. You're the underdog. You're very sympathetic. You throw out the haters. You throw out the white supremacists.

57:30You don't go free speech, free speech all the time. You don't. You say, look, this is going to be a great place to really learn about news. And we'll try to be as broad as possible. We don't tolerate haters. But that's not going to happen. It doesn't matter because it's owned by, you know, Darth Maul or whoever. It's just not going to happen. Darth Maul. Whatever. I don't know. It's just not going to happen. That's a good cultural reference. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Darth Maul. The only win here is if he takes it out as a meme stock. That is the only win this will have.

58:02And then she'll be rich, I guess, and she should sell right away. Yeah, I think the meme stock thing is, do you realize people have now lost more money in meme stocks than they've made? Of course they have. But someone's always on the other end winning that trade. So, and it would be Elon and his bunch of cronies. So that's the only plus I see. Anyway, thank you for your question. Come on our podcast at Can. Listen up. We're going to be answering lots of your listener mail in the upcoming months. If you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

58:37All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

59:08Thank you. CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.

59:43That's O-D-O-O dot com.

59:51Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:00:20No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:01:00You did get in hot water for one of your tweets this week. If you'd like to address it, if you don't, please don't on this topic. You were talking about Democrats and trans issues. I'm happy to talk about it. Do you want to talk about it? Sure, go ahead. So I think the tweet was on the line. Let me start by saying, first of all, you're not transphobic. I thought this was a stupid tweet, but you are not transphobic. Go ahead. Move on. Thanks, I think. People were calling you transphobic. It's not true. Oh, yeah. That was the go-to. You're transphobic. Yeah. So Austin Killips, a trans woman, won the Belgian waffle race on Saturday.

1:01:33That's a 131-mile course that runs through the Blue Ridge Mountains. And the number two rider came in four and a half minutes behind her. And what my tweet was, and I hope I don't get it wrong because obviously Twitter's not a place for nuance. I said that unless Democrats condemn trans women athletes competing at elite, at this elite level, it will impair our ability to advocate for transgender rights. And I think what's happening here, Kara, is that in an attempt to be empathetic, in an attempt to fight for the rights of a group that has been marginalized and has been persecuted, in my view, we have kind of lost our minds and that ideologically the snake is eating its own tail.

1:02:22Now, what do I mean by that? If you think about male physiology, I mean, what it comes right down to is if you look at most of the studies to summarize them, men are physically stronger. Yeah. Women are emotionally and mentally stronger, even at a childhood age. Girls can survive divorce with much better outcomes than boys. But anyways, there's just no comparison. And what we have decided to do when we let people who are born as males compete in these races after they have gone through puberty where you pour testosterone over a bigger, larger muscle mass and greater bone density and skeletal infrastructure, I think you end up with misogyny.

1:03:10misogyny. And that is that the entire world of elite sports, all of the camaraderie, all of the money, all of the scholarships, all of the relevance, all of the accolades, the confidence, all of these wonderful things are about to be slowly but surely sequestered to one group, and that is people born with penises. And I believe that any transgender girl who wants to play on her volleyball team. I'd like to think that every school district would let that happen. And people will say, well, it's a zero-sum game. That means some deserving person born with a vagina doesn't get to play. And I'd be like, at that level, it's worth it.

1:03:54The empathy, the humanity, it's worth it. To help that person who has probably faced a shit ton of discrimination incorporate into society, it's worth it. When you get to the elite level and you start talking about college scholarships, this is where we're headed. Unless we have at a certain level involving money and scholarships, unless we say, look, you're either born with a vagina or you're going to play or you're going to be in another separate category. But the notion that we are going to start having people at six foot five and the wingspan of Michael Phelps, who, by the way, still have a penis and testicles, compete in the NCAA swim meet.

1:04:36This is nothing but us going way too far. And in a misguided attempt to say, to get our bona fides around progressiveness, are hurting women. And there needs to be some nuance here, but this is my prediction. Every major athletic organization around the world is going to justifiably and fairly move to the the following. You either, wherever the gender you go through puberty or the gender you're born with, you are going to compete in that sport. The governing bodies of sports and athletic associations around the world are going to move to a more definitive regulation that says, if you are born with a penis, you need to compete in one of two categories, either men's or some new category.

1:05:31I don't want to say other because that sounds disparaging, but I don't believe that we're going to have any sort of competitive sports at an elite level that allows people born with a penis and go through puberty with testosterone to compete. They will see that this is a bit of a zero-sum game, and our efforts to be empathetic for this community have ended up backfiring us and ended up in certain situations that I believe actually sequester something wonderful, and that is elite sports from people who are born as female. And I think that there's been enough instances and enough productive conversation such that we can have compassion and recognize that young people who go through gender affirmation should absolutely be on their high school teams.

1:06:24We should afford them humanity, grace, and a certain amount, you know, additional generosity. They've had to put up with so much shit. But when it comes to this, it's just I think common sense is going to weigh in here. Okay, I get that. Go ahead. Anyways, I just – and immediately people start calling me transphobic. They did. And I'm like, this isn't transphobic. You know who I'm advocating for? Not only women, but I'm advocating – I believe our ability to advocate for the LGBTQ community and the transgender community is diminished because people think, well, this hateful transgender legislation is ridiculous and stupid.

1:07:02But the Democrats have lost their fucking minds. All right. Let me just say, I don't think they've lost their fucking minds. And I think it's not all Democrats. I think it's a very complex situation to navigate. One person did point out to you quite correctly. These are the rules of this federation. So they're going to have to change their rules. And the federation's wrong. Well, I'm just saying. And it'll change their rules. Let's not focus on the athlete themselves because they're all playing by the rules. So let me just say, I would like to just read the woman who came in second. The woman who came in second.

1:07:32Yeah. She said, a transgender athlete won the women's overall, which caused some controversy. those following women's road cycling are aware of the UCI rule that is currently allowed. Rather than sharing my personal opinions about the UCI rule, I think it's most important to recognize that all athletes, no matter how they identify, should have a space to compete and race. Additionally, underneath all helmets is a face and a person who deserves respect, dignity, and a safe space to ride bikes. In the future, I feel a separate category may be appropriate, but event promoters are also learning what is best to preserve both female cycling while also creating an inclusive space for all to ride.

1:08:03These things take both time and grace to resolve, and she plans to continue to support and attend events in the future, as I trust they will navigate this with respect for all riders going forward. I thought that was literally the best response. I agree with all of that. The reason I think your tweet was stupid is because the people, you're playing into a right-wing trope to make people angry constantly. And so, So I think the context of what you were talking about it in, it's just the context is these people are trying to anger and upset people. And you did the New York Post among them constantly puts these stories as if it's the biggest problem in our world.

1:08:41And I think what happens is that it gets this issue is it gets overblown to a point where everyone then pays attention to it, if that makes sense. And so I think what you didn't note was the context you're operating in, which a group of cynical, awful, cruel, hateful people are using this to push buttons. And perhaps if you had said, I know this is being used by the right to upset, but let's have a discussion about it. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, let's remember what the athlete who came in second was. Let's have some kind of grace to this. This grace and discussion. Oh, 100%. And I got to be honest, Cara.

1:09:17And respect dignity. Your comments that I'm inflaming people and making this worse is very hurtful. I'm sorry. And I'm not saying you don't deserve to say that or you're not accurate, but it rattles me to think that. Well, I just think these people – no, you're not inflaming them, these right-wing people. I don't think you're inflaming them. I think you're in a context where it's inflammatory and you have to be aware of the – I don't think you're inflaming them by any means. Let me just be clear. I think the right wing is this group of cynical grievance grifters, and they're trying to make people angry and divided.

1:09:49And when you're in that environment, you have to be very careful about what you say and write. And I'm not talking about not saying what you think, because you should be able to say this, and it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. I do think that if you're in that environment, you absolutely have to be aware of the people that are trying to play you. And because you're a nice person, that's where you get played the most, ultimately. You should engage on these issues with people who actually are being thoughtful. Anyway, we'll see. But I do see where the anger is coming from, Scott. Look at the ridiculous attacks on Dylan Mulvaney.

1:10:23Ridiculous. I get it. But if you look at actually, though, but if you look at the Twitter feed, it was a fairly productive discussion. For most people, yeah. I mean, some people immediately, you know, called me a transphobe or other people said, well, you know, this is and said some hateful things. But for the most part, people said, had an interesting conversation around different levels and different what the NC2A's rules are and what would be the best rule. And the fact that Martina Navratilova has been very outspoken on this issue. But the question is, how do you ensure as progressives and or just as empathetic Americans that you can be a really robust and effective advocate for these people?

1:11:00And I think that involves a certain dose of adult realities and common sense. Agreed. But I think what they're doing is trying to make it, they're burning everything down so we can't, there's no way to meet in the middle. That's, it just. But we give them the matches when we face, when we refuse to own up to adult realities. That is a hundred percent. You're right. But all I'm saying is the context is what matters. It's, that's all, that's all. That's all. I think it's fair criticism. Okay. I'm sorry. I hurt your feelings. But you hurt my feelings with spatial computing. That's what you're really more mad about that.

1:11:32I loved it. We're out for the holiday weekend, but Tuesday, we've got a great interview with Sundar Pichai from Decoder's Nilay Patel. Then we'll be back with a vengeance because we are broadcasting live from the French Riviera. We will have hawks. Hawks killing seagulls. The hawk will kill one of us. That is what's going to happen on our show and it's not going to be me. What happened to Kara? Taken by a hawk. But it was awesome to see. It was awesome to watch. The hawk would so go for you. It is like you would be little pieces of hawk bait or whatever it is. We're going to chitty chat. We're going to have questions from the audience, and there'll be French people there, and we will have debates and things like that.

1:12:12And we're very excited to do it, and we're very thrilled to do it at Con Lions, which we both enjoy. And there'll be rosé. There will be rosé. That's right. By the way, it's can. Just say it's can. Don't try and be French. It's just can. It's just can. Connus. Connus. Connus Lions. It's Connus Lions. We'll be there on the main stage on Wednesday at 4.30 if you're there. Please come see us. There you go. All right. Read us out, Scott. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Taylor Griffin, Ernie Intratot, engineer this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Saverio. Send us your listener questions.

1:12:44Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I will see you in France. The hawks are waiting. The rosé is waiting. The dog will be in a big, big robe with sunglasses. glasses. I'll be the guy flirting with everybody and ordering$45 truffle cheese fries. Oh, are you going to wear a Speedo? Is there a Speedo? Is there a Speedo?

1:13:23Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier.

1:13:55And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

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