Elon and Trump, OpenAI's Next Moves, and Melinda French Gates' $1B Donation

24:01Oh, my God. I'm sending you her books. It's amazing. Books, many books. The other thing. Okay, right on that. You've made me lose my train of thought with the penis joke idea. But we own our stuff. But just, folks, just keep in mind, everything on Instagram, everything on YouTube, they can crawl it without your permission that you put up there. Your tweets, you give away the rights to it when you put it up there. By posting it there, it's theirs. And so your stuff is all, everybody, all your stuff is going up. I don't know if it's worth anything, but we'll see. But good luck, Vox. Good luck for getting like$53, which is great.

24:36All of you, Atlantic. You don't know the terms of the deal? No, I think, look, one of them, the News Corp one was what? $250 million. It's probably be in the tens. It's a good revenue stream for these companies like Atlantic, who could use the extra$10 million or$20 million or whatever. We're also hearing a lot about some of the events that led up to Sam Altman's ouster last year. And this interview was interesting. She's finally spoken. Former OpenAI board member Helen Toner was on the TED AI Show podcast this week, and it revealed how the board first learned about ChatGPT, among other things.

25:07Let's listen. When ChatGPT came out November 2022, the board was not informed in advance about that. We learned about ChatGPT on Twitter. Sam didn't inform the board that he owned the OpenAI Startup Fund, even though he constantly was claiming to be an independent board member with no financial interest in the company. On multiple occasions, he gave us inaccurate information about the small number of formal safety processes that the company did have in place, meaning that it was basically impossible for the board to know how well those safety processes were working or what might need to change.

25:45current board chair Brett Taylor noted in a statement independent review of Sam's firing concluded the board's decision was not based on concerns over safety, security or finances. So, you know, boards, I don't know what to say. Boards are never informed of a lot of things. And I guess this is the dirty little secret that she's revealing is that boards typically don't know what's going on and the CEOs manipulate them almost continually whether you like them or not. I think their statement at the time that it was not fully honest, essentially, they had some weird term that they never explain themselves.

26:15And here she's explaining herself, I guess. Thoughts? I don't know this, but I'm going to make a thesis here that she hasn't served on a lot of boards because the way boards work is the following. There's the board and then there's the real board. And the real board consists of usually one person who has established a lot of credibility for whatever reason on the board and the person who's the largest shareholder. And essentially everybody talks about and makes decisions over unimportant issues or the daily administration of corporate governance. And then when it comes to big issues like firing the CEO or if and when to sell the company, it basically comes down to one or two voices.

26:49And everyone just kind of says their piece and then looks at those people to decide. I call it the board meeting that happens in the parking lot with the largest shareholder and the person who carries the most gravitas on the board get together and decide what they're going to do. And that voice was Microsoft and still is. And for her to be upset and offended, not recognizing that she didn't understand power as it relates to corporate governance means she has every right to be indignant and she's going on a revenge tour right now. Good for her. It sucks to be a grownup. And this is how boards play out.

27:21She did not understand the dynamics of power as it relates to corporate governance. And the largest shareholder and the person with all the power is not even in the boardroom. I'm on a board right now, and I got sick of having two board meetings because the largest investor had a representative on the board, and then whenever there was a big decision, his representative would go back to this very large investor and get the real decision. You need to come on the board because this is a fucking waste of all of our time playing postman here. And to their credit, this is a tier one VC firm. They said fine, and they put the managing partner of that VC on, and now the board meetings are much more productive.

27:58But here's the bottom line. When you're on the board, I mean, Brett Taylor has now a ton of credibility. But at the end of the day, somebody is calling Satya on big decisions and saying, are you down with this? Because be clear, folks, power is a function, unless it's a dual class shareholder company, of ownership. And that's capitalism. And she's going on what I call a revenge tour, which is really like, I don't understand power. Yeah, I would agree. I was sort of like, what was it? Wasn't consistently honest? What was the expression? There was some expression they used, but they never defined.

28:30Consistently candid or something? Candid, candid, right. Yeah, what a weird word that is. That's not the right word. He's lying. They should have just said he lies to us. That's what they should have said. That's what I wish they had said. But I think what's different here, and I will make Helen Toner's case for this, is she thought it was a different company than it became once the money was cleared, right? I think she thought it was for the good of humanity. She's a very, she's a well-known academic in these areas of safety. And this is her concern, the safety. Very smart woman. And I think she thought it was a different company.

29:01And the rest of us knew what company it was, which was money's to be made. It's a multi-trillion dollar opportunity. And they're at the front of it. And you think we're going to sit around and be good people. I just, because money, like, you know, my first line of my book, it was capitalism after all. In every one of these cases, Helen, I'm sorry, and I appreciate your worries about safety. I share them. Not the way all of you do. I think a little of you are overly dramatic on the topic. But it's just, this is how boards, like exactly what Scott said. When it became clear this was a money-making opportunity, this company, which started in a very different format, became something else.

29:41And you were not seeing what was happening. Same thing with Elon Musk going on about safety and his concerns. And now, of course, he just raised$6 billion. Give me a fucking break. You think he cares about safety now? No, he cares about the money, right? Or making a woke, anti-woke AI. These guys are going to disappoint you every time, Helen Toner. I'm sorry. Well, what I would tell Helen is that, and I didn't learn this, I've been on public board since I was like 36. and I used to get the first 10 years, next 10 years on boards, on a regular occasion would get outraged when the board would come to a decision and it would end up being overridden by the largest shareholder or something would happen.

30:17So I just want to invite Helen over for ice cream and cigarettes and we can talk about all the injustice that we've experienced on boards. And we'll go through millions of gallons of ice cream and I'll bring Paul Malls because I just like that term, Paul Mall. I know, Paul Mall. You've come a long way, baby. Oh, wait, that's Virginia Slims. By the way, that industry killed my mother. I know. So, look, corporate governance, if you're looking for justice on a cap table or corporate governance, the way you get justice is through ownership. And also, there usually is someone on the board that, maybe on the New York Times board, there was this guy named Bob Denham.

30:53He was the lawyer for Denham, Denham. He was the lawyer for Warren Buffett. And he was on the board of the New York Times. And he was just so quiet and had such a great economy of words. And every time he'd say something, you'd think, like, Jesus Christ, this dude is smart. He had the ability to push back on Janet, who was nothing but a foil for the Salzburgers who controlled the company. And it would have been very hard for them to steamroll him because the board would have lined up. It just would have been ugly. Because it's warm, yeah. There's usually one of those on every board. But for the most part, the board at a place like this, it's an advisory board.

31:25They're there to do all the bullshit work, approve options packages. But when shit gets real, it's Satya who's going to make the decisions here in concert with Sam Altman. Yeah, because of the money. I was like, I kind of, I look, I respect for ethics. I really do. And I think it's laudable, but to be shocked that gambling is going on in this place is just sort of like. But what she should do is try and figure out a way to get on the AI trust and safety team in D.C. Yes. And pass regulation. That's right. I think she probably will. I think she is. I think she's in D.C. In any case, Helen, I'm sorry this happened to you, but none of us are surprised.

32:01And this is a for-profit company. And I know it was started differently, but that's what it is now. Come over to my place. Everybody changes. We can talk about how horrible men are. You can braid hair. And how, you know, it was difficult having a perfect mother growing up and then it fucked you up. But it was a good interview anyway. It was interesting. It was an interesting little data point. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Melinda French Gates' next chapter and take a listener mail question about tech we can't stand. MFG. That's not her name.

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34:07Scott, we're back with our second big story, Melinda French-Gates. She announced her next chapter in philanthropy this week as she appears to leave the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She plans to donate$1 billion globally over the next two years to help support women and families as well as reproductive rights in the U.S. A portion of the money will also be distributed in the form of$20 million grants to individuals like former New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and director Ava DuVernay to use at their discretion. I think Melinda was a funder of her recent film, for example. And there's a whole bunch of people.

34:40The 19th, she's given all these grants to really terrific groups. And it's a fascinating move between her and Mackenzie Scott. We have entered a very interesting era of philanthropy. Mackenzie Scott, as you know, used to be married to Jeff Bezos, donated$640 million to over 300 nonprofits a few months ago. She donated$2.2 billion last year. She is burning up the getting rid of her money off her plate as if it's like lava. This is really interesting, these two women. And then Lorraine Powell Jobs is making media investments. She has her own Emerson Collective that does both philanthropy and investments.

35:19What do you think about this? I think it's wonderful. I think I'm a sexist. I think there are certain behaviors that are more prone to people born as women and born as men. And one of the things I notice about philanthropy from women is they're not as big on the ribbon cutting and believing that they should have input and influence into education because they give, you know,$50 million to the Newark school district, not recognizing they don't know a fucking thing about public school education. I find that generally speaking, when women give money away, they ask for less in return and they're more promiscuous.

35:50They're like, I've got a shit ton of money. It makes no sense to hoard wealth. And I'm going to start pushing it out. And I'm going to ask for almost nothing in return. And I think Mackenzie Scott is an outstanding American. I mean, look at, I'm here for Jeff Bezos' midlife crisis. I actually enjoy watching it. I can relate to it. You do. But while he's building super yachts for$300 million, you know, Mackenzie Scott, is sending$15 million to the Jed Foundation to work on teen suicide. And by the way, she doesn't demand anything. She doesn't want to show up. She doesn't want her name on anything.

36:22She just wants to start helping people. I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. I talk a lot about what's wrong with America. But here's the reality. Despite our House of Representatives insulting each other's looks, despite the zombie apocalypse of useful idiots on campuses, America is singular around some really wonderful things. And this is an American story. And I'm a big fan of Richard Reeves. He kind of got highlighted to me or brought to my attention some of the things going on with the struggles that young men face. The guy's at the Brookings Institute. He's an outstanding scholar. He takes a risk, starts his own business.

36:56It's a nonprofit, but it's a true nonprofit. He doesn't answer to Microsoft, called the American Institute for Boys and Men. He takes a risk. He starts this thing just to produce research around the struggles that young men interfacing. And then a woman named Melinda French Gates finds him and gives him$20 million. And you know something? This is a uniquely American story. It does happen in other parts of the world, but it doesn't happen as often as it happens in America. So for all of the shitposting and of all of the catastrophizing, of all of the clickbait around everything that's wrong with our nation, this is one of the things that's right with it.

37:30We create tremendous economic value, and then good people want to push it out to do good work. I just love this story. I'm really happy for Richard. And also Melinda French Gates has said bodily autonomy and women's rights are hugely important. She's passionate about it. It's wonderful. But at the same time, she said, if we're going to have a vibrant community, who wants more economically and emotionally viable young men? Women. Yeah, that's right. And she's giving money to an institute that's focused on boys. I think she's wonderful. She's excellent. Go Melinda French Gates. Let me make a comparison of something we just talked about.

38:03These sort of childish men are doing their stupid Trump fundraiser with very little money that they're putting out to get a lot of influence and doing no good for humanity except for themselves, except for like self-aggrandizing themselves, both Chamath and David Sachs. And also Elon Musk is doing this, but doing nothing to help all of society. They're just giving a piddling amount of money to whorish politicians in order to have influence. Meanwhile, Melinda Gates and Mackenzie Bezos are using money, real money, real money, not little tiny multimillion dollar,$5 ,000 donations to have dinner with someone who has been found liable for rape.

38:44No, they're not using their money for that. They're giving away billions and billions of dollars to laudable people across the globe to make the world a better place. What a fucking comparison. These men are sad and dickless, and these women have balls as big as all ever. That's all I'll say. Sad and dickless. Jesus Christ. No, but they're doing this so they can have a party in Silicon Valley for Trump. It drives me nuts that these people think they're important when this is where the real— If you have money like this, this is what you should do with it. Thank you. Well, again, they're not presenting their money to issues.

39:18They're using a small amount of money to present themselves. That's correct. One is vanity. One is philanthropy. But I don't know if you knew this, but my girlfriend often compared me to Bill Gates when we would have sex because I'm Microsoft. Oh, my gosh. That's good. Literally putting a penis joke in my power ladies moment. That's good. Well, all of it, you are angry this morning. You are going after it. You've got to be careful in San Francisco. There's a lot of these pretend to care about the world. Rich people run around there. the world. That's the thing these women do. They're actually putting their money where their mouth is.

39:49And they're not, by the way, are you hearing from Mackenzie Scott? She just gives the money and leaves in the dark of night. Melinda French Gates gave a few interviews talking and she's giving to help reproductive rights. And by the way, they're putting it all over the place. It's not just in like liberal causes. They're putting it in places that matter for kids and families. They're putting it to feed people. They're putting it to, it's just like the contrast is so vast. I'm not mad. I'm like these terrible men compared to these amazing women is just such a great contrast for me. By the way, FYI, a lot of these people, one of the things that the Gateses did start was the giving pledge with Warren Buffett in 2010.

40:31Sam Altman and his husband just announced that they plan to give away most of their wealth as part of the giving pledge. I've always thought that was a cool thing. I don't know. I've always thought. I don't think it is. You don't. Why? Tell me why. I don't know. To pledge to give away all your wealth? Why is that? Okay. Big fucking deal. The giving pledge. All the giving pledge says is that after I'm dead, that somebody is going to give my money away. Great. You don't believe in dynastic wealth. It has absolutely no impact on you. Maybe you even put it into a donor advised fund where you get a tax deduction.

40:58That's different. That's different. Yeah, but that's a component of this notion that you're a good person because at some point you're going to give your money away. And I'm going to hear a lot of virtue signaling right now. I hit my number seven years ago, and I've decided that above that number, I'm giving everything away now. Because here's the thing. This is a virus that ails America, hoarding money. There needs to be a movement in America that once you hit your number, you just start giving it away now. You don't say, I want credit for being a great guy after I have had all my Boeing business jets, after I have bought football teams, after I've had seven midlife crises.

41:33And then when I'm dead and it no longer matters to me, I'll give it away. You know what, Scott? You have literally just convinced me. You are correct. I don't say this very well. Uh-oh. Cats living with dogs. The world has stopped rotating. God, you're right. You're right. That's why I love these badass women. They're giving it away. Literally. Billions. You know what the goal is? What? The goal is to give in. I'll leave my kids a little bit of money, but this is the goal, to be at the end of your life, to spend the money on other people and experiences and be surrounded, die at home, be surrounded by people who are going to be really bummed that you're leaving.

42:09Not a bunch of press releases saying, why the fuck are you worth$100 billion? Yeah. Why didn't you start giving it away? How much are you leaving your kids? What is the number? What's the number one leaves one's kids? This is the challenge, and this is a good problem, but you want to give them enough money such that they can do anything, but not enough money such that they can do nothing. Ah, yes. Buy a house. Give them money for a house. That's what I say. Money that, quite frankly, they don't have access to until they're 25, 35, and 45. Money for education, money for a home, but not enough money such that they don't have to work.

42:43Yep. We're on the same parenting thing. That's the thing. That's correct. Yes. That's exactly right. I've decided, and I love it, I hit my number seven years ago, and my number's probably a lot lower than most of these guys. And I'm like, anything above that, I'm going to either spend it at the Hotel Du Cap. Yes, on me, by the way. On friends and people I love, or I'm going to give it away. There is no reason, once you're above a certain number, to hoard wealth. Do you realize what a virus hoarding is in this nation? You know, I agree with you. It was interesting because I'm doing some stuff that I like at my house here in San Francisco.

43:17and someone's like, it's a lot of money. And the other day I was with, just fantastic, there's a lot of tech law stuff. And she was, we were talking about that and I'm like, oh, it's a little bit of money. And she looked at me and she goes, you can't live in stock. And I was like, you're right. What she meaning is I'm enjoying it now, right? And you can apply the same thing to giving it away too. Like now is the time to do it, not later, whether you want, as you say. And it was, and I've repeated that to several people because I thought it was really smart. Like, you can't live in stock, meaning hoarding your stock.

43:51And I was like, that made me, one, feel better about spending the money. And the same thing was like, same thing should apply to donations and giving things away. It should happen in the now. Scott? But it's not even giving because I'm a big fan of Daniel Kahneman. And I went back and read some of his work when he passed away. Let's pick a number,$100 million. Of$100 million, if it grows 4 % or 6 % a year,$4 to$6 million a year gets you a beautiful home, a beautiful second home, a FlexJet card. Do whatever you want with whomever you want pretty much all of the time. You can just have an extraordinary life.

44:28The difference between$100 million and$1 billion, there's no marginal increase in the quality of your life. There isn't. As a matter of fact, there'll be some increase. You can buy a football team. You can have more influence over politics. But there's also a downside. People start taking pictures of your kids. People start running stories about you in TMZ. There is a downside. So if there's no incremental gain in happiness and so many people would benefit from the types of donations that Mackenzie Scott and Melinda French Gates are making, why on earth wouldn't you enjoy that happiness and not hoard wealth?

45:02And help people. You know what? This is a very good explanation. I still think the others are shameful and these women are ballers. That's my feeling. Good for them. The word giving is overused and they have earned the right. They own the right to say that they are giving. What these other folks are doing is consumption. It's PR. A lot of it's virtue saying, I'm going to give all my money away after I'm dead. Who the fuck? I don't care what happens to my money after I'm dead. That's not doing anything. And also, let me be a bit of a capitalist here. I also think it's really wonderful and good for the world to spend it.

45:37Spend a shit ton of money. Put it back into the economy. Enjoy it. The world offers amazing things that you can spend money on. I think it's great when people spend a ton of money. Scott, I feel like this should be your next book. Spend. Spend, bitches, spend. The new novel. The new novel from The Chosen Juan. See, this is why I love this show. You have shifted my thoughts in a very good way, in a very helpful way. Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question.

46:11this question comes from an anonymous listener let's hear what she has to say Scott and Kara I have a quick question for you on a recent show you both expounded on your distaste for Siri which was a shocker to me as an iPhone owner it's kind of the only option I have is there any other tech phenomenon that you both eschew? Love the show. Love you both. Have a great day. We don't like Siri because it sucks. Anonymous listener who is probably Melinda French Gates. Let me just tell you, it sucks. It's terrible. And it's an embarrassment. It's Apple's biggest embarrassment is Siri. Thank you. Apple Maps is probably right up there.

46:56No, it's gotten better. I've been using it. Uh-huh. Got better. Make Siri better, Apple, or whatever. Whatever. Sky, whatever the fuck you're going to make with AI. Make it better. What other technology do we not like? Oh, there's a lot I don't like. Well, they won. Oh, well, Vision Pro for Scott, obviously. Okay. The headset. By the way, when do I get a victory lap that this thing was fucking DOA? You take it all the time. Okay. There's a bunch of them. 3D printing. Oh, yeah. That was just ridiculously stupid. Wearables. made no fucking sense. The only wearable is your iPhone. And I would argue the Apple Watch isn't a wearable.

47:34It's a second screen for your iPhone. The most overhyped technology in the short term is AI. It's spawned a$3 trillion increase in market cap or 150 times revenue. It is overvalued. I'm not saying it's not going to be amazing for the world, important, we shouldn't have regulation, but right now it is overhyped. The most underhyped technology, which is what I'm more fond of talking about is GLP-1. The actual real economy, whether it's kidney dialysis, hip replacement, alcoholism, gambling addiction, going to McDonald's twice a day instead of four times a day, I think GLP-1 is already having more impact on the real economy in terms of actual consumer behavior and consumer spending.

48:13But there's all this bullshit hand-waving around different types of technologies. Okay, hold on. NFTs? Oh, my God. NFTs? Are you going to do them all? Do I get to do one? But go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. NFTs. Go ahead. Finish with your NFTs. Well, I will finish. The first thing that Chris Wallace said to me when I walked in, he's like, he's like, Scott, he's like, I need to say this. I talked to Kara and I'm going to ask you a question and I need you to answer and then stop talking. I've heard you give a lot of lectures. And I felt like I walked in and I'm like, Jesus Christ, she's literally haunting me wherever I go.

48:44She warned Chris Wallace that I am too verbose. And I said, I appreciate that. I'll keep my answer short terse terse okay are you done nfts all right okay um i i have very few i like i i don't buy the things i don't like i'll tell you what i love is i love my airpod maxes for example but then i just got a sonos just sent me their new thing which is beautiful i think it's called ace gorgeous i love those over the ear things even though it seems like an old technology i think they're wonderful it's one of my favorite things to use as a technology that's something i I don't eschew. I use it quite a bit.

49:20And I love it and I buy it for people because I think it's a really good phenomenon. I'm trying to think, what do I eschew? Gosh, I don't know. I'm trying to think. All the things Scott mentioned. Scooters. I love scooters. What are you talking about? Do you still ride a scooter? Of course I do all the time. I do all the time. I think they're such urban blight. I love scooters and I love city bikes in New York. City bikes are great. I love them. I like scooters. I like all those things. I'm trying to give something up. Hey, let me give you one. Space tourism. How about that one? Oh, yes. Space tourism.

49:48Thank you. Yes. I'll never do that. Never will I do that. Well, and no one is. No one is doing space tourism. Space tourism. By the way, another SPAC. Yeah, exactly. That's right. I think Chamath was involved in that. I was actually with him when they did that in New York at the Stock Exchange. I think it was the Stock Exchange. I remember. Because they showed off the uniforms and Richard Branson was there. It was such bullshit. That was nothing but a transfer of wealth from retail investors to prop up Richard Branson's cruise ships and travel empire, which was going bankrupt during COVID. And we called that early.

50:23That was fucking, oh, by the way, Virgin Galactic stock, okay? It reached a high of, oh, it hit$56 because, you know, Chamath and Richard Branson, he's cool. He's a great promoter. Chamath's a very articulate promoter. Oh, today it's at 87 cents. 87 cents. That's right. Well done, Shema. Well done. I eschew certain people like that. That's what I eschew. And then also the humane pin, all those AI pins and things like that. It's often around voice. I've been very disappointed by voice stuff. That's what I would say. It hasn't gotten in the way, you know, same thing with the Amazon Echo or the Google one.

51:01They've never delivered in terms of real efficacy for me. Others like them, but I do not. All right. That's a good list. That's a great list. Thank you for all this, Scott. Again, very smart. If you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Send a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for your prediction.

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52:54Okay, Scott, give us a good prediction. You've been very strong lately, I would say, on the predictions. No, look, I just want to highlight again that I think that Melinda French Gates and, and I'll pose this as a prediction, and Mackenzie Scott are going to kick off a wave of what it really means to give. You're not looking for anything back. You're pushing the money out. And I would like to see, and I'm hoping that we begin to inspire that some people who have been blessed, being born in America, worked hard, but got very lucky, had great alignment with a spouse or a partner, attracted really talented people, and have managed to create such extraordinary wealth that they can live a really nice, really nice life.

53:34They do. That we're going to start, I'm hoping that we're going to start a movement against hoarding. I just don't, it's not going to make you any happier. It creates imbalance in terms of power. There's just no getting around it. When you have six people who are worth more than the bottom half of America, we've hit a breaking point here, folks. And I do think there's going to be a movement away from hoarding. And that we're going to start shaming people. We're just going to say, Why do you need to have more than a billion dollars? What is it going to get you? Right. And I hope that - Dinner with Trump.

54:04Sorry, go ahead. There you go. I believe in private property, but I also believe in a progressive tax structure. I do believe taxes are going to go up dramatically because here's the thing. No one loses. No one loses when you start taxing people above a billion dollars in wealth. It just, now they could move, but I hope that it gets started on a personal level where people say, you know what? I'm good. I have a few hundred million bucks. I'm good. I'm good. And I can be happier by spending more money and or giving more money away. May I ask you a question? Yeah. Do you think it's a coincidence that these are women?

54:40Well, didn't I say that? Yeah, but do you think, why do you think that is? I think that, well, again, you're not a sexist when you elevate women above men, but you're not allowed to have an open conversations around some of the things that men are good at. But I think that women are more maternal. I think women from day one are there. They have a certain hormone and a certain predisposition to protecting others because they at some point believe that they're going to be responsible for someone else. And so they are more caring and they are less less ego driven. Now, some of that ego that men have results in incredible things.

55:16I think many times men make better entrepreneurs and that's going to get me a ton of hate mail. But I think men are more aggressive and more focused on people outside of their immediate family and think very big things. And that can be wonderful. But at the same time, they become more disconnected from the people around them and they're less caring. So I think it manifests in good and bad ways across the genders. I don't disagree with you. Yesterday, I was watching, we were at this house and there was, you know, those little pebbles people have on paths, you know. So literally, Saul was throwing them at a tree with every bit of strength he had and pointlessly throwing things just out of throwing.

55:53And Clara was carefully piling them. It was so, and I literally was like, gender. You need both. You need hunters and gatherers. I was like, gender. Like, I know there's different groups, but it literally was like, reminded me of, he was just aggressive. The reason we got here is that men, or mostly men, would see something moving in the bushes a couple hundred meters away and immediately, without even thinking, grabbed a spear and began running towards something with a bloodlust to kill the thing and feed the tribe. At the same time, there were a group of people who tended to be women who would pick up fruit and look at it very carefully and go, this is rancid, we can't eat this.

56:35You need both those skills in a household. You need both those skills in an economy. But unfortunately, I believe sometimes we're not allowed to have an open and honest conversation around the difference in the genders. Because if you say anything that isn't other than, oh, women make better managers or women make better leaders, you get shit. No, I get that. I think it's because people are different. Because, like, I think I'm a different kind of woman than others. I'm more aggressive, right? I agree. So I think it's just it doesn't have to fully apply. And I think what happens on the right is they have to fully apply it, right?

57:05And on the left, they say, there's no such thing. And so that's the problem, right? That's the dichotomy. It's difficult to have a robust, open conversation for fear that you say something inarticulate and you lose your job. And we should just be a little bit more open. One, I do think we have to acknowledge there are certain behaviors that are more indicative or more prone or more likely to cluster around people born as a male or a female, which isn't to say that a lot of people born as women don't have wonderful masculine attributes and a lot of i've said this i'm drawn to men that are more feminine that are more caring yeah scott cries scott between us scott's the crier i cried yesterday on chris wallace i was so fucking embarrassed i'm fucking chris wallace yeah i got a study started asking me about male role models and i talked about all the men in my life if you do that your voice gets all crumbly i'm doing it i'm doing it too much lately i think it's i think it's jet lag you have been i've noticed that i've noticed that.

57:57I like it. I think it's a good quality. Anyway, good prediction. Scott, that's the show. A quick reminder of what you can hear on our other pods. We are dating other people. We are Polly. Prof G. Markets talks to analyst Lynn Alden with a strong case for Bitcoin. And next week, comedian Ilana Glazer joins on with Kara Swisher to talk about her new movie, Babes. And by the way, my Bill Maher interview is up if you want to listen to it. It's quite Just so you know, he said no to me. He said yes to you. Really? I asked him to come on my pod, and I got this bullshit thing back from his public saying, saying, Bill really wanted to do this, but he's done with media and he's tired.

58:33And I'm like, well, he wasn't tired enough to go on. Well, I went to his house. But in any case, he talks about being bullied in high school, in school. It was interesting. I had not heard that. Yeah, so he had a little moment, too, even though a lot of people don't like him. It was really interesting. Anyway, we'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Travis Larchuk, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Severio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

59:04Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. What is uniquely wonderful about America? We have good people who create billions of dollars in value and then decide they're going to give it away. They're going to help others see above and give.