Elon's Big Loss, Trump's Stock Trades, and OpenAI vs. Apple

22:19Kara Swisher:But a lawsuit is not great for OpenAI, I assume, correct or not? It doesn't matter for Apple. Well, the fear is, amongst OpenAI, is this hands Google's Gemini the keys of the Apple universe. And that's the same keys they've possessed with search for two decades, right? And Apple routes the Siri queries through its private cloud compute framework, claiming user data is never stored or used to train Google's models. And Apple evaluated or claims they evaluated OpenAI and Anthropic before choosing Google. I got to think there's 20 billion reasons why Apple wants to maintain a good relationship with Alphabet.

22:55Kara Swisher:Also, that could be a court case in a future Democratic administration too, right? They've already been in trouble for those deals. That's always been part of the thing. Well, that$20 billion accounts for about 20 % of Apple's annual services revenue. So it's real. I mean, that is real. That strikes me as the perfect relationship that fucks consumers. Yes, exactly. They will get paid. Apple will be the payee here. They're not going to pay Google. Oh, no, no. They control the distribution. They control the interface. They control custody of the consumer. And it's the age-old argument of who's more important, the distribution or the manufacturer's brand.

23:33And there's always an argument. And then the companies that get really, really have extraordinary shareholder value always either reverse engineer into creating their own brands and controlling and taking advantage. Everyone goes vertical at some point, or they forward integrate and start opening original Levi's stores. They start opening their own stores. But in the case of Apple, they've done a great job of deciding what they're going to go vertical on and what they should just extract a lump of flesh for. And I would, again, I've said this before, I think Apple's smart move, and as far as I can tell, strategy is to decide that around AI, they're going to be the toll booth and let whoever the highest bidder is be the default AI.

24:14Yeah.

24:15Kara Swisher:It'll be questionable if they, as we talked about last week, about whether they do this with Siri, right? Because Siri just sucks. Are they going to make Siri better or use someone else's? Siri has never been intuitive. I spend more time arguing with Siri than anything else. What I said. I think Oculus and Siri are arguably two of the worst brands in tech over the last 10 years. I think they've become total cliches for shit that doesn't work or that doesn't live up to its potential. Because a lot of the AI interface is going to be talking, right? Like, hey, like you're in Iron Man. So who does that?

24:53Scarlett Johansson will be her, right? Yeah, right.

24:55Kara Swisher:But who is that company? Are they going to, is Apple going to default that or is that going to be their thing? Because they, I wish someone would do like a really deep dive into what happened with Siri, why it's so bad and why it is under resourced or I don't really, I don't even know. But it seems to me like that's going to be the real interface is the voice, but maybe not. I don't know. No, I think you're right. I think where it's shaping up one of the big, the underappreciated or insights is that from a sensory perception, I think AI is going to be more about your ear canal than your cornea or your eyes.

25:33And that is truly seamless AI will be a function. And again, Apple will control the distribution with their AirPods. What you're saying is what will the branded voice be or will it be branded? I guess you'll have to say, hey, something to prompt it.

25:47Kara Swisher:Is it part of it? Who runs it? Who's the back? Anyway, I feel like there's a huge opportunity here for one of these AI companies because that's what, you know, as if anyone who's done a chatbot like this, it's really, it's the way to communicate. It's much faster. You don't have to type things in. It's much better. Anyway, speaking of, we may not get there because as these companies fight, Americans are pushing back on data centers, powering all of it, especially the AI. According to New Gallup Polling, seven in 10 Americans opposed constructing data centers in their local area. That's not Trump.

26:20Kara Swisher:Trump just had new polling. He's down even further. But they don't like Trump. They don't like data centers. The opposition cuts across every major demographic and political group, although Democrats are significantly more likely than Republicans to strongly oppose these data centers. But Republicans don't like them either. Like, let's be clear. It's pretty interesting that it's it's something that's quite bipartisan. And, you know, a lot of people think this is going to be the biggest. I do, too, when you hear from people, especially as Elon, like, runs roughshod over the Tennessee town with his methane engines or whatever, with these colossus.

26:55Kara Swisher:It just creates this feeling of, I don't know what it is. It's like these rich fuckers are fucking with our environment now, right? And not to our benefit, essentially. But your thoughts on this? I think it's the same reason that all these commencement speakers got booed when they mentioned AI. I mean, first off, no one is using AI more than college students. And there's also some evidence that it's not the demand on the electricity or the environmental concerns that, I mean, some people will argue, quite frankly, that has been exaggerated. I would like to see the scientific evidence on that. but there's just no getting around it.

27:35What this represents is the following, whether you're booing Eric Schmidt or rallying against a data center, Americans see their prices going up and they're not participating in the wealth creation of AI. And it's just a proxy for income inequality that, okay, I hear about, you know, Anthropica is worth a trillion dollars. San Francisco real estate prices are booming. Jet sales are booming. There are 28-year-olds who are lucky enough to get a job in coding at OpenAI who are selling $7,$10,$15 million in stock. And I can't afford detergent. I'm worried about food costs. And so when I hear a data center is going up 40 miles from me in Utah, I show up to the protest.

28:24Whether or not I see direct evidence of it hurting me or not, this is a way of saying, AI has become indicative of income inequality. And so, when anyone shows up at a commencement speech and starts lecturing them on AI, or they hear about a data center, I think this is essentially a vessel of people just filling it. And I don't want to diminish their concerns. I think there are some real questions that need to be answered around these data centers. But I feel mostly this is a vessel for people's rage around. It seems like everyone is doing well, except for me. And that America's giant bet on AI is paying off for a small group of people, and I'm not part of that group.

29:07Kara Swisher:Why not the companies themselves? And why these? Because I guess data centers are physical, right? They're here. They're there. They seem. Gives you somewhere to go protest. It's also dystopian, right? They feel dystopian. They feel like they're probably not going to have a lot of people running them. It's not going to provide the jobs. They're going around local governments to try to like pay off people to put them in in the way others. There are worries about the energy costs that will go up in these areas. There's like some real things. And then there's the pollution aspect. And I think Elon's as usual been like the poster child for abuse of poor people.

29:44Kara Swisher:Right. These are usually in poor areas. Also, I think it's just even beyond the worries about things, it's more of a creeping worry about what tech is. Again, more villainous. We don't assume the best of these people ever, nor should we, that kind of thing. Well, the one being planned in Utah that's sort of been the lightning rod or kind of embodies this one, they have the wrong spokesperson. And Kevin O 'Leary has seen as someone who's not that empathetic, an old light guy who just doesn't, he does not appeal to this cohort. It's going to be two and a half times, the envisioned data center is going to be two and a half times the size of Manhattan.

30:25They have not figured out a way to communicate the economic benefits. And you're right, this notion that you could turn the lights off on these things during the day because there's so few people working there. The bigger threat, in my view, and of course, we're not talking about this, but if you look at history, when we have spent more than 3 % of GDP on any infrastructure buildout, whether it's the railroads, where I think we got up to 10%, we did two big buildouts, whether it's the electrification and the highways, remember the telco infrastructure buildout of the late 90s, whenever we do that and go over about 3%, in three years, there's a crash.

30:59because, and what might make this crash especially severe is that railroads need upgrading every 50 years, telco every 20 years. A data center is basically obsolete in four or five years. So I think there, I think obviously you need to look at the environmental concerns. You need to look at energy costs, but I would imagine there's so much money on the line here that these companies and these city councils would be able to come to some sort of accommodation around how do we ensure the local populace does not see its electricity costs just go through the roof.

31:30Kara Swisher:One would imagine. And I know the Trump administration has been trying to do that. I think the hiring of Dina Powell was the reason for that is she's very, yes, president of Meta. I think that's probably going to be a lot of her jobs, these data centers worldwide, by the way. It's not just, it's not just, it's also in the Mideast. It's also because they want to have big data centers there and they have much more control over their populace. But I do think it's sort of the last play of these governments not to put up with this. You know, it's a really interesting dynamic of people who are sort of years ago, one of the Joe Kennedy Jr., I think I've said this, came.

32:06Kara Swisher:I went to his office and he was talking about Amazon putting in a warehouse into his district. And he goes, well, this is probably good for people. I said, oh, no, it's not good. It's not going to be good for people. They're not here to help. They're here to help themselves. I think people at their very core understand, as you were saying, that this is not for them. This is for others to benefit, and it's not to help them in any way. So why should we give up environmental stuff or more energy prices more than environmental? The curb or the retail story or the cover story is we're worried about environmental and demands on the grid.

32:43I think what's really going on here is this is just rage at income inequality. and big tech and the data center is the manifestation and that we can see it and protest against it. I think whenever we get to these levels of income inequality, we have war, famine, or revolution. I would argue we have all three of those, but revolution always takes on a different complexion. I think what we have now is a series of small revolutions and they're going after people they, generally speaking, big tech, old people, white people, rich people. Okay. Tell me you're involved in a data center without telling me you're involved in a data center.

33:24Yeah, I know.

33:24Kara Swisher:Kevin O 'Leary shows up with his multi-million dollar. I mean, he's literally the worst spokesperson in the world for this shit. Did you see that outfit he was wearing? I was like, oh my God, you literally look like the guy, you know, the Monopoly man. That's what he looks like, the Monopoly man. Like it just is not, I'm not a fan of Mr. Wonderful. Yeah, it's only a matter of days before you see AOC and Bernie Sanders at these sites whipping people up into a friend. It'll be like the modern-day equivalent of when Bob Barker used to go to animal shelters and just go crazy. Yeah, yeah, it's true.

33:54Kara Swisher:Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Now, speaking of this, which I think is getting people furious too, and I do think this is, the new financial disclosures show Trump or his investment advisors made more than 3 ,700 stock trades in the first quarter of 2026 involving hundreds of millions of dollars. The filings show major buys in companies like NVIDIA, Boeing, Intel, Microsoft, and Oracle, many of which are directly affected by Trump administration policy decisions, as the FCC chairperson Anna Gomez calls billionaire buddy deals. In the case of Palantir, Trump made at least seven purchases of the stock, totaling as much as$530 ,000 in March, then just happened to praise the company on True Social after shares suffered their worst week in a year the following month.

34:35Kara Swisher:I mean, what does it actually take to have consequences here? And does it all end up with Trump or is he permanently changed what Americans will tolerate from presidents? Because this is like, there's a, I literally feel like he's going to start taking milk money from kids, like at some point, if you remember that, that expression. I just this is like, is there anywhere he doesn't cheat and advantage himself in a way that's like really obvious grift, like obvious and really kind of upsetting grift? Well, I think you asked exactly the correct question, and that is, what can be done about it? I want to move past the Democrats' indignation and constantly bitching about it, but no real ideas on how to stop it.

35:19And so let's set the table here to your point about a level of grift that is just absolutely unprecedented. he has executed more than 3 ,700 trades in the first quarter of 2026. He's doing 40 trades a day. By the way, throughout his life, it's not like he's someone addicted to trading on Robinhood, and this is just him, you know, Trump being Trumpy. He usually didn't make this many trades in a year. And all of a sudden, he has access to influence around these companies, and he's decided to start trading stocks. Trump bought$500 ,000 to a million dollars in NVIDIA stock one week before his commerce department approved NVIDIA chip sales to China.

35:56He bought somewhere between one and five million the week before they announced a major deal with Meta. He bought Dell stock before he started carving up TikTok and giving it to, wait for it, Michael Dell, the same with Oracle. And we have unfortunately relied on a series of norms that has resulted in every president since LBJ using a blind trust. Obama did index funds and treasury bills. Everyone else has put their stuff into a blind trust. He claims his trust is blindish because his sons operate it, who are the same people roaming around extracting a pound of flesh. And on the trips to China, just here to support dad.

36:36Kara Swisher:Give me a fucking break. So look, insider trading or the veil or the appearance of insider trading has essentially defined Trump's second term. Just before Liberation Day, more than a dozen government officials made well-timed stock sales. What a coincidence. So his meme coin hit a$27 billion market cap inauguration week with 58 anonymous wallets, making over a billion dollars dumping it while 800 ,000 retail investors lost 2 billion combined. 15 minutes before Trump announced Iran on P-stocks, 500 million in oil futures and one and a half billion in S &P futures traded hands. Calfi trading. Who knows who's doing that?

37:16It's absolutely. So let's be clear. There appears to be an unprecedented pattern of information that seems to be only available from Trump or people surrounding him engaging in what feels like either market manipulation or what could classically be defined as insider trading. And the damage there is it's not only a conflict of interest in skewing their decisions, it creates a lack of trust in the markets where people think, if I don't have insider information, I shouldn't buy stocks because the person buying or selling stock has more information than me. And you start to see Russia, which has a total stock market value of what our stock market trades about every seven seconds.

37:55And you lose access to cheap capital and your whole economy starts to decline because companies can't find pools of capital that are formed based on a certain rule of law and fair play. The question is, okay, great. Now what do we do about it? And this is where I think the Democrats, again, have fallen short. And that is we're long on indignation, but we're short on ideas. And I believe that someone running for president should say, one of my first acts is I'm going to work with the following state's AGs. I think there's been insider trading. I think they'll have to disgorge at a minimum their profits, including Democrats, including Democrats who've engaged in insider trading.

38:33I think there has been wire fraud. I think there has been effectively what announced defense concerns or violations of the emoluments clause. I'm going to go after cabinet members. I'm going to go after their sons to the letter of the law. And the key here is I'm going to do it with the following state AGs such that this legal action is not exempted or protected by a presidential pardon. But somebody needs to lay this shit out. We are, I mean.

39:01Kara Swisher:Well, Rahm Emanuel has. Others have. Several have. Let me be clear. Well, Rahm is the only one. He just laid it out in a piece of paper. Rahm is the only one who's actually moved to the ideas part of – I worry we are going to be in for a rude awakening if we think we're going to win just based on indignance and hating Trump. It's got to be, all right, what are you going to do about it? And the way you get legitimacy here is one by saying any Democrat that's engaged in this bullshit, which they have, we're going after as well. And also, don't think a presidential pardon is going to get you out of this, folks, because this comes down to incentives.

39:39And until these people believe they could be subject to something on January 21st of 2028 or excuse me, 2029, they're going to continue to engage in it.

39:49Kara Swisher:Right. Because these are easy. You know, these cases are much easier to win. There's digital proof everywhere. That's right. I have told you this, but there is a group of technologists who are saving crypto things for later. Like so later when it happens, like when you can do something like this, there'll be proof. Yeah, they have prints on the trades. Yes, they have been watching it, they've been collecting it, and they're holding it. And so there's an ability to track this stuff, folks. And you're absolutely right. This grift has got to be, they're not going to, some of them are going to, look, Trump probably is going to walk away.

40:21Kara Swisher:Let's be clear. unfortunately getting our hands on him is going to be pointless anger filled let biology take care of him let him he's old like he is not going to be gotten but the sons of these people and the lutniks of the world all these people it feels so dirty like what's happening with whitkoff and the all these kids are like swanning around i can tell you they're swanning around washington and there is dumb and dumber doesn't even begin to describe them and they are just They're just on the make, and it's grotesque. It's just grotesque what's going on here. And let me tell you, the people who are mad about data centers, they're also taking advantage of you everywhere else.

41:02Kara Swisher:And so fuck you is their, how to fuck you is their operating principle. And they can do it in a shortcut way without working at it. That's their favorite way. And so I agree with you. This is what, any democratic person wants to come and talk to us, we will give you a speech for you to do this. Anyway, we have to go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon Musk planned to make sure no one can fire him from SpaceX and other monarchy.

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45:12Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news. SpaceX is expected to file for its IPO this week, which will be interesting. I'm excited for you to read it and tell me all about it. At a valuation of roughly$2 trillion, aiming to go public June 12th on NASDAQ. We're also learning more about the governance structure. No surprise, CEO Elon Musk would control a supermajority of Class B stock with 10 times the voting power of ordinary shares. This is not uncommon. Google and other companies have this meta version of this. The prospectus says Elon can only be removed by Class B shareholders and he will control the election and removal of directors as long as he holds his stake.

45:48Kara Swisher:Investors are warned this will limit or preclude your ability to influence corporate matters. It's already in place right now, by the way, but come on, of course he's going to do this. And there's yet another incentive for Elon. If SpaceX reaches a$7.5 trillion valuation and it establishes a one million person colony on Mars, he could receive up to 200 million in shares. Let's talk about this board membership, Scott, because you've been an investor, you've been a board member. Elon defended on X writing, I need to make sure SpaceX stays focused on making life multi-planetary and extending consciousness to the stars, not pandering to someone's bullshit quarterly earnings bonus.

46:28Kara Swisher:In other words, he doesn't want to have a public company, but he wants the benefits of a public company. Only thing I will say here, he truly does believe in this multi-planetary extending consciousness. This is not marketing on his behalf. He has a demented, loony idea that humanity will die and he should be the god of Mars. So, and speaking of war, but your thoughts on this entire thing besides monarchy and godlike feelings that he has? Well, just a brief history of dual class shareholder companies. They were originally invented by media companies who claimed they wanted to pursue journalism without the vagaries.

47:04New York Times. Well, yeah, a bunch of them actually. Yeah. Almost a lot of them said, and there's some legitimacy there. These families said, we don't want someone who hates us to show up and start dictating editorial control, so we want to maintain control. Whether you believe that or not, fine. But then the first tech company to do that was the Google guys. Google. They said, we want two classes of shares. And what's interesting is in the late 90s, there was a rumor that Sequoia was trying to sell its shares in a private Google because they really clashed with Sergey and Larry who demanded two classes of shares.

47:44And that was so unusual. And Sequoia's thought was, you're not going to be able to get public. You're not a newspaper company. You're not a journalism company or a tech company. and basically Google then, everybody else has followed in Google's footsteps. Now, to be fair to Musk, when I went on the board of the New York Times and was the largest shareholder, all I really was, was heckling from the cheap seats and effectively an advisory board because the family, which now gets 10 seats and everybody else gets five seats. So while you get some sort of representation, you really don't have, at the end of the day, the family decides what they're going to do over Thanksgiving dinner.

48:24The Ford family's the same way. They own very few shares, but they control the company. And tech has figured this out. So this is nothing new. And to be fair, most of the academic studies have shown that dual-class shareholder companies have not vastly underperformed single-share companies.

48:39Kara Swisher:Yeah, I don't think that's the issue. It can't be fired. Oh, he's in charge. And not only that, but I mean, this is where the shit will get crazy. And I can't wait to read the S1. Adam Newman wanted his kids to inherit the company. And Musk is saying, but the reality is shareholders have a choice around whether they want to buy shares. And what you do with a tool class shareholder company is one, eventually you get a bad king, and two, you take out a premium of a possible takeover. And that is Warner Brothers' discovery. When AT &T spun Warner Brothers, they demanded a single class share stock such that the company could be put into play.

49:16And whenever a company is a single class share company, it usually trades theoretically at a bit of a premium because someone could come in and buy it. So this is just, you have to decide whether you believe in Musk. And to be also just the market says, people are not only willing to put up a dual class shareholder company, they're willing to buy at what are errant, abnormal, extraordinary valuations because of Musk's involvement. But this is these super voting shares started with media companies or newspaper companies, then leaked into tech, and now almost everyone is doing it when they go public.

49:55Kara Swisher:Right. That I don't fault him on. Like, of course. And by the way, he's been running Tesla like that anyway, without having this kind of thing, right? It doesn't matter. The board does whatever he wants. It's a completely bought and paid for board, essentially. And so he gets that shares and he always threatens to leave and he throws a fit and it just didn't work at OpenAI. That's what happened there. They're like, yeah, we'll be fine without you. And they were for a time. So I think this is not an unusual thing. And you do have to realize he's not going to, he is a key man here. It's just like one bad night in Austin.

50:33Kara Swisher:And you know, that's the problem with all this stuff. Or he loses interest like he's done at Tesla. Now the shares have stayed up because it's a meme stock, but the company's not headed in the right. He's just lost interest in it. And, you know, that's the problem you have here is these single monarchies. Same thing with Zuckerberg. He happens to be vibrant right now. But, boy, has he made a series of idiotic moves that would have gotten other people fired. And he won't be fired. And it is part of a mentality of I am the king, I am the god, that you have got to buy into. But it has enormous risk because it's all predicated on one person.

51:12Kara Swisher:And sometimes that's good, but sometimes that's not so good. Like, I just feel like that buyer beware, essentially. You can do well. I think that Musk, I think there's no way to build a company like SpaceX or Tesla without having a ton of good people around them. The reason why the Messiah complex comes into effect in that is no one is allowed to get near. I'm pretty sure the fastest way to get fired at Tesla or SpaceX is to ever say anything at a mic. Only Elon is allowed to talk. This is all about Elon. He's the genius. We don't, there is no Ruth Peratt. You know, there is no Tim Armstrong. There is no, there's no one else.

51:54Anyone's allowed. You're locked in the basement.

51:57Kara Swisher:Can I just interject? When I wanted to interview Gwen Shotwell years and years ago at one of my code conferences, they said, only Elon will speak to you. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? She's obviously doing an amazing job. Like, I really wanted to focus. No, no. No, no. It's all about Elon. Only Elon. And I was like, I remember at the time being like, well, that's fucked up because she deserves, like, I want to hear from her. Anyway. But what I would suggest investors do when the S1 comes out, and I'm going to spend some time on this, is not focus on the dual class shareholder structure, but simple, basic boring stuff or the boring knitting evaluation.

52:32And that is the following. At some point, an amazing company is a shitty investment if it gets too expensive. And at some point, a shitty company is an amazing investment if it gets cheap enough. And let's just talk about valuation here. Google IPO'd trading at about 10 times trailing revenue, and it was growing revenues 240 % before the IPO. So 10 times revenue, growing 240 % a year. Meta IPO'd at 28 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 88 % a year before the IPO. Saudi Aramco, five times trailing revenue, growing revenues 41 % a year. SpaceX will IPO at 109 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 20 % a year.

53:14So, and to be clear, space is the ultimate addressable market. They have most the size of the Amazon, but it's going out at 10 times the valuation on a multiple basis as Google did with a 10th of the growth. And then if you just want to look at valuations, Amazon went public at 900 million. Microsoft at$2.3 billion, Apple at$7 billion, and Google at$40 billion. And what, SpaceX is targeting$2 trillion? So all I have to say is, is SpaceX an amazing company or is it massively overvalued? The answer is yes.

53:54Kara Swisher:Yes. Yeah. Well, we'll see. And you can still do well. OK, moving on very quickly. Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Republican primary after President Trump targeted him in retaliation for voting to convict him in his impeachment trial five years ago. Trump backed Representative Julia Letlow, who finished ahead with about 45 percent of the vote on True Social Trump celebrated the loss, saying that Cassidy's disloyalty to the man who got him elected is now part of legend. and it's nice to see that his political career is over. Cassidy took a swipe at Trump during his concession speech. Let's listen to a clip.

54:27And when you participate in democracy, sometimes it doesn't turn out the way you want it to. But you don't pout. You don't whine. You don't claim the election was stolen. You don't find a reason why.

54:45You don't manufacture some excuse. You thank the voters for the privilege of representing the state or the country for as long as you've had that privilege.

54:55Kara Swisher:So interestingly, also just for a related story, the Supreme Court blocked an effort to revive Democratic-backed Virginia congressional map that could have flipped several GOP House seats. The map had been approved by voters but struck down by Virginia's Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court did not give a reason for denying the emergency appeal and the order. They usually don't meddle with Supreme Courts, really, is what I'm told. So there's some worry that Democrats should worry about the political environment. Others feel, no, that it's not the case, that it was a good thing to have, but not a must-have.

55:24Kara Swisher:I mean, this Cassidy thing is interesting because suddenly, again, like Tom Tillis, he's found his balls. And he does have until January to do something about it. He's the one that backed RFK. And even though he knew better, he did a lot. He voted yes for Pete Hegseth. Shouldn't have done it. Now can be regretful of it. I know Tillis took a really big slap at Hegseth this week. These two could make trouble for Trump until January, quite a bit of trouble. But, you know, as Tillis did with the with around the Fed chairman vote. So what do you think about this? I mean, democracy is democracy and Trump has power in these states.

56:00Kara Swisher:So thoughts about both things? I'm torn because I understand I'm sympathetic to the notion that you can't do good if you don't get elected. And this is no longer the Republican Party. It's MAGA. It puts these people in a very difficult position. I also think there's some legitimacy to the argument that Bill Cassidy should lose his medical license because to be – well, he was the swing vote. I know that. I couldn't believe it. They got RFK. I mean, I've said this before. No one is doing more damage abroad than Secretary Hexeth. No one is doing more damage to children domestically than RFK Jr. Measles is on the rise.

56:39I know you two are. I mean –

56:41Kara Swisher:It's repulsive. He's a murderer. And this is the doctor. He took a Hippocratic oath and he confirmed a guy he knew was creating fear and insecurity around our great medical institutions and demonizing vaccines. And he's a fucking doctor. I mean, so I want to feel some glee here, but here's the problem. him. It was good to have a doctor on many of these panels. He was about as reasonable as they came. The person that's probably going to replace him is going to be worse. So this is just one of those things. It's like shavings of shit on a shit salad. And it's fun to be gleeful about it and say, Senator Cassidy, you're, you know, the only thing I know that's going to come of this is, oh my God, wait and see the testicles that this senator is suddenly about to find he has.

57:37Kara Swisher:He just did. Just watch him on Bill Maher. All of a sudden, he's going to turn into a truth teller. I can't wait to see what he says about RFK now. And the problem is, folks, that's not when we need your testicles. That's correct. I agree. That's not when we need you to be a leader. So I just think this is, you look left, you look right, and this is shit avenue. Because he was a reasonable guy. You do need medical professionals on these panels to say, okay, one of us is a doctor. everyone else shut the fuck up. I think that training does pay off. I believe in expertise. I believe in credentials.

58:14I believe in peer-reviewed research. I believe in science and so should America. We need more doctors, I think, in Congress. The person who replaces him, and he must be pissed off because quite frankly, while they're saying he came in third, he actually barely lost because he got 25. The other candidate who was anti-Trump or not a Trumpy got 28. So if he had just gotten 28 or 29, he might have won in the general. I got to be honest, though. You know what I'm so excited to see?

58:42Kara Swisher:What? Oh my God. He's going after village idiot, Lauren Boebert. Oh, he's going after Lauren Boebert. And I just want to say, I'm going to host a fundraiser for Boebert and it's going to be whoever wins, she has to go on a date with your 17-year-old son. I think she is the best date for a high schooler. She'll let you grope her. I'm going to. All right. We're moving on. We're moving on. She goes to Beetlejuice. All right. Where were you when I was 17, Representative Boebert? No, you didn't say anything about the Democratic thing in Virginia briefly because we got to move on. But I said this last week.

59:16We're hoping that redistricting is beat by vibes. I just don't think there's any way to polish this. This is bad for Democrats.

59:27Kara Swisher:Yeah, I think he can't deny polling. Polling is polling and everywhere it happens. You got to win by winning the votes. That's the way you got to do it. Well, but I take the other side of that. If you gerrymander enough, you can win more than you deserve. I still think it's an overwhelming, it's going to be a train. I hope you're right. All right. We'll see. We'll see. And by the way, another talking point, Pete or Rom, this is my grid. I took a grid. My eight-year-old did it. Pete has little kids. He drew eight lines exactly equidestined horizontally, and he put it on top of the U.S. map, and this is what I'm going to propose for congressional districts.

1:00:11I'm going to de-gerrymander the United States. I think that is a great talking point right now.

1:00:17Kara Swisher:Yep, that's another good one. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the reality star in the L.A. mayoral race.

1:00:28Kara Swisher:Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode, I sit down with high-achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, journalist Dean at USC and now, along with her husband Bob Iger, owner of the Angel City FC women's soccer team. Willow Bay. I said, Bob, are you interested in doing this? And he said, absolutely. But I was definitely the driving force, I think, in the conviction about Angel City. Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

1:01:07Thank you.

1:01:35Thank you. so. The other Klaviyo AI agent keeps your customers happy at any hour, brand trained to answer questions, make product recommendations, and handle orders and returns, no hold music. Marketing that launches instantly. Support that never sleeps. Join more than 193 ,000 brands, including Away, Patrick Ta, and Dollar Shave Club, already growing with Klaviyo, the autonomous B2C CRM. Get started at klaviyo.com.

1:02:10I'm Scott Galloway. And I'm Ed Elson. And we're bringing the Profiting Markets Tour to Chicago. That's right, the city with big shoulders, I think. Chi-town? Is that what they call it, the city with big shoulders? Anyways, I call Chicago the old navy of cities. I think it's 80 % of New York for 50 % of the price. I went there with my son. You probably don't love that.

1:02:31I went there with my son, and I had the best weekend. We went to this amazing steakhouse. We went to a batting cage. We did a bike tour. We had the best time. What can they expect from us in Chicago? We'll have predictions. We'll have hot takes. We'll have some of Scott's signature rants live and in person. And you will have the chance to ask a question as well. Come to the Vic on Monday, June 1st. You can get your tickets at ProfitMarketstour.com. That's ProfitMarketstour.com.

1:03:07Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news. This one. Oh, my God. You could have run for mayor of Los Angeles at this point. Spencer Pratt, formerly a reality show of The Hills and a generally awful person, is unexpectedly emerging as a contender in the Los Angeles mayor's race. I'm not so clear he's going to win, but he's got the mo. Despite his lack of political experience, Pratt has gained traction through viral social media campaigning and support from figures like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk. Of course, Elon Musk. Pratt has built his campaign around frustration with the cost of living in the city's response to wildfires, which destroyed his own home.

1:03:40Kara Swisher:A lot of reporting by Harvey Levin has shown most of the stuff he's saying to be nonsense. Thank God for TMZ at this point. He's signed up, of course, an unscripted series following his bid to be mayor and going into mayor, of course, because this is all a scam with Spencer Pratt. And elsewhere in California politics, which seems insane at this particular juncture, California gubernatorial candidate Tom Steyer is under investigation after his campaign paid influencers to post favorable content without clearly disclosing it was sponsored. California law requires paid political content to include disclaimers, as it should.

1:04:14Kara Swisher:And state regulators are now looking into whether those rules were violated. Both Democratic and Republican groups are putting, spent millions of this type of endorsement over the past few campaign cycles. It's very, it's propaganda. So reality stars, influencers, of course it's California, Spencer fucking Pratt. Like what in the fuckety fuck? And a lot of people donate to him, by the way, don't live in Los Angeles, but that's neither here nor there. Thoughts? I had a friend call me and asked me to have him on the Raging Moderates pod. And like a reality TV star, he lost his house in the Palisades.

1:04:48He's very good on camera. He understands social media. He's got a lot of momentum. He's running against what I think is a weak candidate and a frustrated populace. LA has become a little bit like, I would describe it as Cape Town. There are some areas of Cape Town, I think this is the nicest place in the world. And then if you venture a few minutes outside of them, it gets really ugly really fast. And the homeless problem, you know, I think it's fair for people to say, I'm paying some of the highest taxes in the nation and I have to walk this way to my kids to school so they don't see a homeless man masturbating or shitting in the streets.

1:05:23You can understand the amount of bureaucracy trying to deal with the fires. A lot of people don't like the way the fires are. This is ripe for somebody to challenge Karen Mare Bass. Where I land on the following is the following. Spencer Bratt embraced Alex Jones, said 9-11 was an inside job and brought up doubt about Sandy Hook. Go fuck yourself. I would vote for anyone over someone who has embracing Alex Jones disqualifies you to run as one of the great cities in the world. So this guy is evidence again of revolution and people so angry and so upset. I hope, And it's also evidence of just how hard it is to find reasonably competent people to run for office.

1:06:11Kara Swisher:Like Rick Caruso was supposed to challenge her. Yeah, Rick would have been great. I'm trying to get my friend Jamie Patrikov to run. He's nice. He loves L.A. He has the money, which is important. He's pragmatic. He's a business person. None of these people want to put their family or themselves through this bullshit. Right. Also, somebody has to come in and take on many of the special interest groups, including unions, including entrenched Democrats. That's, and it is a, a lot of people will say, people really thoughtful go, LA, like California, has become nearly ungovernable. And that is the special interest groups are so entrenched and so hard to overcome.

1:06:46There's so much bureaucracy. It is so hard to find talented people to try and do this. Everybody wants theirs. And that it's become a very difficult, but Spencer Pratt.

1:06:56Kara Swisher:I know. It's just amazing that some people are backing this guy, this guy. And by the way, I'm not kidding about Harvey Levin. And he actually showed how much he was living at the Bel Air Hotel and was pretending to. Anyway, look, there's frustration over everything. A lot of the stuff that he's talking about is not the responsibility of Bass, but there's anger at Bass about how she handled that. No question. There's anger and frustration about homelessness. There's anger and frustration. But your choice is not to go with Spencer fucking Pratt, by the way, who's just one con after another. He really is.

1:07:29Kara Swisher:He really is. and lie and con after another. There's another council member who's also showing some, a little bit, not momentum, but some numbers, who had backed Bass and now is running against Bass, probably should, I hate to say this, but probably strike some sort of deal with Bass, step down and let, she will probably win. Bass will, because she's, there's no Latinos or black people are voting for Spencer Bratt. And it's all outside money. It's all people who have like very little interest in it But he is articulating in anger, even if he's the worst vessel possible. That's how we got Trump.

1:08:05Kara Swisher:That's exactly right. But this guy makes Trump look like a genius. Like, let me just say, this is not even close. It would be such an embarrassment for this to happen. In San Francisco, you get Daniel Lurie, someone who's doing a good job. And by the way, I still don't think Lennon Breed did the worst job of all. It just was she had a lot of stuff that got piled up on top of her and didn't have the tools because of different legal things that got passed later that you couldn't deal with the homeless issue there. But now Lurie can. You need someone like Lurie. Like find someone like that, like who is going to be like maybe a little more centrist than the left wants, maybe a little not as not as conservative as others want.

1:08:48Kara Swisher:Right. Someone who's going to try to solve problems and at least make an attempt to do so. And instead, this laughable like con man is the person you're picking and full of constant lies. It will be a disaster for Los Angeles is one of the most beautiful places on Earth. And if they could be Los Angeles compared to San Francisco is a quantum level of difficulty of running. It just is like, let's be clear. And but this is not what you want. I think Bass has started to acknowledge the problems. He's just saying all the right things. It's likely she'll win. But the momentum for this fucking clown, especially, let me tell you, anyone who calls me from Los Angeles and several have that say they're looking at them, we are no longer friends.

1:09:30Kara Swisher:Like, sorry. Just sorry. But the reason they're looking at them, quite frankly, you're being very generous to Mayor Bass. Right. I am. I am. I agree. I think she has not been great. But this is the choice you have, right? Fair enough. But there's a couple takeaways. here, Mayor Lurie and Democrats, especially Democrats in executive roles, not legislative roles. There's a difference. Governor and mayor, it's an executive role. Agree. And what Mayor Lurie is doing, and every Democratic mayor needs to take a note out of this pagebook and governor, because if Democratic governors and mayors can't figure out a way to not make their cities come across as shitholes, it is going to be very hard for them to run.

1:10:08They've got to show they have the ability to say no to special interest groups and be about blocking and tackling such that they focus on quality of life issues. And what Mayor Lurie has done that is so impressive is if you ask him about Israel, if you ask him about Ukraine, if you ask him even about a national issue, bodily autonomy that doesn't directly affect right now San Franciscans who have access to family planning, he says, I'm not going to talk about it. That's not why I'm here. Every mayor and governor in the United States thinks that their mayoral or their governorship is a kickoff campaign for them to run for president.

1:10:44Yeah, I agree. No, get the subways to run on fucking time. Figure out the way the trash gets picked up. Figure out a way to strike a deal with the unions if you're dealing with that such that they make good livings, but they're not making$180 ,000 a year for the 40 years in retirement. Stop talking about national and international issues. No one gives a fuck what you think. Run the city. And that is exactly what Mayor Lurie's doing, and he's very popular. And he's getting a lot of support and he's getting shit done. And he's making hard decisions around homelessness and around municipal transportation.

1:11:19The other thing I want to say that'll be Tom Steyer has basically been accused of astroturfing. I mean, that's effectively what it is. You're paying for people who endorse you, who don't disclose their endorsement. Okay, so is everyone else. Right, right.

1:11:36Kara Swisher:I get it. When Mom Donnie was running and I said anything about the mayoral race, hundreds of comments from bots, you're going to tell me they somehow weren't connected to money and his campaign? No, it's a part of modern political life. And so if Tom Steyer doesn't astroturf, then good for him and he's going to lose. This is now the world we live in. Unless the platforms figure out an airtight way to get rid of anonymous accounts, and unless they start going after agencies that claim to be PR and comms firms, you are— Yeah, you're absolutely right. You're stupid not to AstroTurf back because everyone's doing it to you.

1:12:16Kara Swisher:It is. It's just that there's got to be a way to solve this because it's such—like, it's so noisy. The platforms have to do it. No, absolutely. It's so noisy we can't hear what people are saying. In this case, it looks like probably Becerra looks like he's surging ahead at this point. But that whole California race has been insane. Like all of them got to someone needs to knock heads there, but no one could knock heads anymore. Right. So it's sort of a race to be an influencer or something or some version of cheap and dirty. And that's a real shame. It really is. It's, you know, California is an important state and should be governed by serious people.

1:12:51Kara Swisher:Both as cities are important cities. They've led the way on innovation. Whether they have troubles now, that's a different issue. But, you know, it's taking governance for as a joke. And that's what that's the real ugliness of the Trump administration, creating everything like a grift and a joke. Tapping to anger. Great social media. Mm hmm. You know, he's playing you folks. And, you know, you're going to have to I wish there was an alternative to Bass that was serious. And I, you know, I get why you would want to be behind it. But this you're doing this. There's something wrong with you. There's something real wrong with you.

1:13:24Kara Swisher:Anyway, we'll see what happens. We'll see. He may just fade just because he seems like such a village idiot, but we'll see. And if he wins, watch out fucking below. I've watched some of his stuff. I think he's actually, he's got some of that Trump charisma. He does. He's got some of that anger and outrage, tapping into it. Again, this all comes back to the same thing. People are getting 110 notifications on their phone that everyone's making bank and has a hot boyfriend or girlfriend except them. Everyone feels as if they're falling behind. And when you're falling behind and you're angry, chaos is your preferred candidate.

1:14:05Kara Swisher:That's correct. You're absolutely right. Anyway, well, we'll see what happens there. I'd be interested. Don't have Spencer Pratt on, if you don't mind. You can, but you have to whack his shit out of him. No, Jess said, if we do that, we have to have Mayor Bass on. And I'm like, I don't, I'm not going to platform anyone who said 9-11 was an inside job and has shared the stage with Alex Jones. And other than saying my heart goes out to the victims of Sandy Hook, that's just disqualifying. I'm doing a lot of virtue signaling right now, but those are red lines. Those are okay. Those are red lines for me.

1:14:39Kara Swisher:Those are good virtues, I would say. They're not virtue signaling. It's virtues. They're virtuous. Virtuous. Those are good virtues. There are some good virtues these days. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

1:14:54Okay, so today we're driving to southern New Jersey and heading to a data center. A couple of weeks ago, I read a story in NJ.com, and it was all about how there's a data center going up in Cumberland County, the poorest county in New Jersey, that's receiving some community pushback. And this immediately got my attention because data centers are going up all across the country. I feel like we should be hearing politicians talk more about this, but we haven't really heard a consensus. Are data centers really a necessary evil? Let's find out. This is technology we've never seen before. Right. Experiment.

1:15:32We're the experiment down here.

1:15:34Kara Swisher:And we're the guinea pigs. Right. Exactly. Exactly. One thing that happens in this country is there's no planning for the future. Is it benefiting people or is it benefiting the elite and the money that's going into their pockets? This is not about abstract politics. It's about people's everyday lives. That's this week on America Actually. Complex and unprecedented, the Spanish authorities are calling it. Passengers who'd been stuck aboard the Hanta or maybe Hanta virus stricken Dutch cruise ship disembarked in the Canary Islands this weekend, and prompting the highest stakes game of where are they now since maybe COVID.

1:16:14Kara Swisher:Some of the evacuees, American and French, have since tested positive for the virus. And yet public health officials seem remarkably calm. We do have one individual who was taken to the biocontainment unit early, early this morning. And we assessed that individual. They are doing well. Possibly because this is not the one to freak out over. Today Explained drops every weekday afternoon.

1:16:54This week on Criminal, a man leaves his girlfriend at the top of a mountain. He's charged with her death. And then at the trial, his ex-girlfriend testifies that the same thing had happened to her too.

1:17:08Kara Swisher:She screamed, she felt dizzy, and, you know, at that moment she realized she was completely alone. Thomas apparently left her. On our other show, This Is Love, a story of another couple on a mountain. There's no ledges, there's... You're trapped. I had confidence that there's no way this many things can go wrong in a row. You can listen to both episodes right now on Criminal and This Is Love wherever you get your podcasts.

1:17:46Kara Swisher:Okay, let's do some wins and fails. Should I go first? You go first. Okay. I'm going to put it as a win and a fail on both. Now, I love Stephen Colbert, right? I love him. I think he's really funny. I think he's going to have an enormous career after he leaves. I think they're overdoing it on the Goodbye Tour. I have to say, I hate to agree with people, but it's like... It's like a woman's birthday party that turns into a jubilee coronation for two fucking years. I just feel like, come on. Leave already. We get it. Leave. And it's also like, it's the five white guys. I was like, you're not making yourself feel like, I get it.

1:18:21Kara Swisher:I'm pissed myself about the parent, the takeover. I am too. But I'm not going to go on about it. That said, what I did love is when they bring Letterman back, who I love when he's mad. Like, I love a Letterman anger, and I think it's really funny. And that was sort of his brand, sort of dyspeptic anger. And they threw the furniture, and then they threw the melons, and they threw the birthday cake off the roof. I thought that was so funny and just exactly all I needed. So that was my win and fail at the same time. And when he says, good night and good luck, motherfuckers, that made me laugh hysterically.

1:18:57Kara Swisher:Like, do it in humor, but it's getting, like, it's getting a little much. I can't believe Megan Kelly said his version of this and I hate to agree with her. But and I love Stephen Colbert. And I think he's got I think they're not telling the truth about what happened here. I do know that these shows are declining and this is the way it goes. They could have done a lot of other things, but just stick with the funny. And we all know you got fucked like I get it. But just go on and do great things. That's what I would say. I just am feeling a little bit like, OK, boys, you know, there are lots of people that get fucked.

1:19:32Kara Swisher:So let's do something about it, as you say. All right, you're a win and fail. People are going to be mad at me, but I love Stephen Colbert anyway. Well, I have a fail and a prediction. And okay, so my fail is Nicholas Kristof and what I believe is a breakdown in standards at the New York Times. And his piece on Palestinian prisoners, I think is my fail. And not because the subject isn't serious and not because it's an important issue. I believe that our military operations in Western societies and democracies need to be held to a higher standard. And whether it's a second strike on a boat, not a Navy vessel with survivors and not giving them quarter or the abuse of Palestinian prisoners, I think that the IDF should be held to a higher standard than any military in the Middle East.

1:20:26So it's not that it's not an important issue, but there's a line in the piece suggesting that dogs were trained to rape prisoners. That's an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require a level of evidence that was not met here, not vibes, not hearsay, not someone said. If you're going to publish something that incendiary, you need airtight sourcing, multiple corroborated on-the-record confirmations or clear documentation into someone who has a background or experience with Belgian Malinois and has come very close to adopting a canine dog. The notion that a dog can be trained to physically rape somebody, it's just fucking ridiculous.

1:21:11And I feel that they're not informing the public. They're injecting a narrative accelerant into one of the most volatile conflicts on the planet. And here's the bigger problem. When legacy media outlets, especially one that has the prestige, the reputation, the talent of the New York Times, runs with claims like that that aren't bulletproofed, they're not risking being wrong. They're risking a further erosion and trust in everything else that's true. And they hand ammunition to people who want to dismiss all reporting as biased or fabricated. And this isn't, I'm trying not to take sides here. I think this is about standards.

1:21:50War is where truth goes to die on both sides, which means journalism needs to be really disciplined. And if you lower the bar because the story aligns with your priors, you're no longer doing journalism. You're doing advocacy with a byline. And I think that these abuses, the ones that can be proven, get discounted because the media couldn't resist the most shocking version of the story. This reminds me of all those stories about child soldiers. They really upset people for the right reason. You take something innocent and talk about killing, taking dogs and combining it with rape. It just, I read it and I thought this is just over the fucking top for the New York Times.

1:22:30Kara Swisher:Well, can I just, I'm not going to push back because I think there's a lot of controversy around this story, that it was in the opinion section, that in this case, it probably, the New York Times reporters on the scene should have written a follow-up story or something to talk about this. Now, Christoph is known as an excellent journalist, has done amazing work. Not just that, not just because he won the Pulitzer Prize, but like amazing work on all sorts of abuses across the world. And he's been accurate. as he's a very good reporter too. But this was an opinion section piece, as you know. And the New York Times has been very supportive of him.

1:23:08Kara Swisher:But I think in this case, this should have been also reported because of the nature of it. You've got to have like extensive reporting on this, even if, because it's so incendiary. And I think probably, I don't know what happened and they need to talk about it. But the New York Times is backing his reporting. The question is, should they do more reporting, right? And if this was the same allegations on the Israeli side as Ben, I mean, on the Hamas side of the same sexual abuses, same thing, right? Like allegations, same thing. And so that's what's important here is to do as I think you double report stuff like this, triple report and quadruple report.

1:23:52Kara Swisher:It'll be interesting to see how it pans out because the Times has been backing him on this stuff. And he is citing a lot of UN stuff. He's citing a lot of reports on the scene. He's citing a lot of stuff. But it requires extra, extra reporting as much as, you know, that may seem offensive to some. I think I do agree with you here. They've got to really button it up in a way that because of the incendiary nature and where it is at the same time, even if you have a side and you feel like, you know, that war does result in terrible abuses of the citizenry. Yeah, I'm going to defer to you on journalistic standards.

1:24:32I just read it and thought, I have trouble. This seems so unbelievable that it required more than. More reporting. More evidence and better reporting than I felt was evident in the article. And then on something that is so important in terms of how we in the West, and I do consider to Israel, Israel is an ally and part of the West. The standards they should be held to are really important and deserve, they deserve scrutiny. I mean, I get it. When people claim I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Israel, I say to them, I can relate to that because I don't like Netanyahu, but I care so much about Israel that I would like to see Netanyahu voted out of office because I don't think they have acquitted themselves well in terms of many of the ways they have approached this conflict.

1:25:23I get it. But when you reduce the veracity of your reporting on this key issue and other ones by, as someone, I don't feel like I have domain expertise around how prisoners are treated. I have some domain expertise around dogs, quite frankly. And I just thought, okay, I have, I can't even, this is unimaginable for me, for someone who has spent a lot of time around Belgium Malinois, for them to say that. And then I'm like, where's the evidence? Where's the proof? Where's the double, the corroboration, the further investigation, and it wasn't there. And I thought, it reminded me of when you see those just unthinkable pictures.

1:26:03At the end of the war, Americans were really horrified by what they saw in concentration camps. They were almost as horrified by the Germans enlisting 14-year-olds and sending them to the front lines, because you took children, something innocent, and you collided it with something heinous, killing other people. And this reeked of that to me. Let's find the most innocent creatures in the world, dogs, and let's combine it with rape.

1:26:29Kara Swisher:Well, let me just read that just for this for people to know. We'll see where it zeroes out. But I'm assuming they're going to do further reporting would be my guess internally. And there's a lot of people saying they're going to retract it. Christoph has said this is not true. This was the quote that the New York Times gave, just so we have it. There is no truth to this at all. Nicholas Khrushchev is a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist who has reported on sexual violence for decades and is widely regarded as one of the world's best on-ground reporters documenting and bearing witness to sexual abuse experienced by women and men in war and conflict zones.

1:27:05Kara Swisher:He traveled to the region to report firsthand on the stories of Palestinians who suffered abuse, and this article collects accounts of the victim's own words backed by independent studies. So we'll see. This has another chapter happening because they're getting such pushback and including from Netanyahu. So I do hate to say like you have to do extra reporting on certain topics, but I think you have to anticipate even if it's Netanyahu or whoever it happens to be and have everything locked up tight. I would agree with you on that. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. I thought that was a productive conversation.

1:27:38I appreciate it. Yes, no problem.

1:27:41Kara Swisher:People are going to be mad anyway, no matter what. But there's no talking about this without everyone going to their corner and getting very upset. And I understand that. Look, I'm not supposed to do a prediction, but I couldn't help it. It just struck me as fairly obvious. You're going to see an invasion of some of the islands off the coast of China. Well, let me back up. Basically, my prediction is Kinmen and Matsu Islands are going to be invaded in the next 24 months or seized, and you're going to have - By the Chinese. Yeah, you'll probably have an economic blockade. You can't have, I don't think an amphibious assault of Taiwan is feasible.

1:28:29And I think China, after seeing what's happened in Ukraine and Iran, and the fact there isn't a single person in the Chinese military who has any combat experience, I don't think they want to get an amphibious landing in Taiwan is unthinkable. However, the Straits of Taiwan are where 50 % of all shipping goes through. I think a soft economic blockade is coming for the following reasons. A show went down my spine when on Air Force One, Trump was asked if he would support and defend Taiwan. And he said, I'm not going to let anybody know that. But what is clear to me, and the fact pattern is just so obvious here, is that Trump is concerned with one thing, and that is becoming the wealthiest man in the world.

1:29:11And I believe he sold out Taiwan in a private meeting at that summit. And evidence of that was for the first time, an American president has said, well, I'm not going to say anything about how I feel about America's continued support of Taiwan. And it's not only turning our back on a democratic ally, but the basic counterbalances amongst between U.S. senior relations is the following. They control 90 % of the processing of rare earth materials. We control 90 % of the most advanced chips because of our tight relationship with Taiwan. If China gets access to those Taiwanese chips, which is another reason they wouldn't do an amphibious invasion because they don't want to destroy those factories.

1:29:57But if they use their economic clout to do what is effectively a soft creeping takeover of Taiwan and we're not there to support them, China has won.

1:30:08Kara Swisher:100%. It's the move. It's the move. If you were them, it's the move. And I think Trump, I don't think Trump gives a shit about geopolitics, the decline of U.S. negotiating leverage. I think he cares about - U.S. consumers, he doesn't care about. I think he cares about one thing. I think she, if I were she, I would have said the following, you know, you realize I'm super interested in your coin. And with just a fraction of our budget, I can use offshore accounts to take the Trump coin. I think I can get it worth, here's my math guy here. I think I can get it worth to be two, 300 billion because price discovery is at the margins.

1:30:48I think I can take it there within say 90 days, six months before your presidency ends, and then you'll have 90 days to divest of your holdings. And by the way, is there any way you can move out Ohio-class submarines from all the Straits of Taiwan? And by the way, I think economic reintegration of Taiwan into the great nation of China would make sense without any bloodshed. What do you think? I think that conversation has already happened, and I think evidence of it was what he said on Air Force One. And again, another talking point for a Democrat, we will back Taiwan economically and militarily if necessary because chips are the future.

1:31:33Don't get backed into a corner about threatening another forever war. Say chips are the future, folks. And Taiwan is an amazing ally of ours. And the only reason that we have control over 90 % of what is the new oil in an information economy, and that's chips, we cannot let Taiwan go to the Chinese. Make an economic argument, not a military argument.

1:31:54Kara Swisher:You know what I would do on top of that? I would make Jensen Wan move to Taiwan, see how he feels about that, like with the Chinese blockade. Like, let's have some – selling chips to the Chinese is such a mistake. It is such an advantage we have. I love this prediction. Scott, you should be mayor of Los Angeles. That's where you should run. I'd run on the In-N-Out ticket? In-N-Out burger ticket? Yeah, we could run. Hollywood Bowl? I'd be your top advisor in speech. I like it. I'm in. I'm in. Okay. Anyway, Scott, that is really smart. You're absolutely right. That's exactly how they're going to do it.

1:32:27Kara Swisher:And Trump has sold out a critical, critical part of our security. And calling David Sanger, by the way, can I just last thing? David Sanger, speaking of great New York Times reporters, is one of the top reporters in this area, calling him a traitor. is one of the more, there's so many heinous things Trump says, but just absolutely, as I always say, every accusation is a confession. He's the traitor. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show.

1:33:03Kara Swisher:Thank you for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie and Ritard, I interviewed this episode. Thanks also to Jabros, Misevera, and Dan Chalanda, Chakras, Box Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Box Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, I will see you on Thursday.