EV Declines, Net Neutrality, and an AI Executive Order

23:06Toyota's been more investing in hybrids, where people are just, they're still in hybrids. They like electric, but they don't want to go fully electric. How do you look at this? So I think that everybody was so intoxicated and getting so shamed about not being Tesla. You know, when Tesla became worth more than the entire auto market, correctly, every board said, well, what's the difference between us and Tesla? and they thought, well, it's EV production. And you can understand that. But it was a lot more than that. Musk had done a great job leveraging the media, got people very excited about this future, dominated what was supposed to be the next thing.

23:42And that conference I was at with you, there was someone from the oil and gas industry and he said that effectively, if he asked auto companies to just figure out a way to buy carbon credits or invest in reforestation and go carbon neutral with all the cars they were producing, that that would be a more economical way of helping the environment and giving people transportation needs because EVs are still very expensive and they have their own environmental issues. Now, whether you believe that or not, it's clear that the automobile manufacturers, I mean, you could argue strategically that this was a bit of a dumb move.

24:20You got to skate to where the puck is, but you also got to realize we're really good at building internal combustion engines. And we're really good at building cars with consumers who still, for the most part, when they look at the value trade-off, like internal combustion engines. I mean, they're voting with their pocketbook. It's still kind of the dominant technology platform out there. But these companies are now thinking, okay, did we make investments that were just too aggressive and they're scaling back a bit? What are your thoughts, Cara? Here's the thing. I do think people will eventually, I think everyone who wants an EV has bought an EV, right, or they're in it.

24:54I like mine. I love mine. I think it's great. And those who can afford to put electric chargers in their homes, they're coming down in price, obviously, or, and it's still not built out. So people are still nervous about it. And then the price point is not, I think at one point when I interviewed Bill Gates, he called it the green premium has to come down to equality, right? That it's just as cheap kind of thing. And they tend to make choices if that's the case, economic choices. What's interesting is Toyota, there's this new Toyota CEO that's sort of lecturing everyone, but the company itself had an in-house startup that was supposed to take the company into the future.

25:31This is a great story in the Wall Street Journal. They did a great job on it. The unit's plans included a multi-billion dollar city where people could test out self-driving cars and live in smart homes. Also a new operating system for Toyota cars. It's been delayed. They hired a very prominent Google car person. I do think everyone did get ahead of themselves where the consumer wasn't yet. At the same time, and I think you're right about sort of the Tesla envy that sort of pushed. It reminds you of streaming, right? Everybody rushed into streaming after Netflix in some ways. And then there was only Netflix left to make money at this.

26:10Yeah. Yeah, so Ford said it's postponing$12 billion in planned spending. They've already abandoned their targets. The bottom line is they all thought they would get the same sort of Tesla bump, and they haven't. What they did was the worst of both worlds. They don't get credit for forward-leaning investments in EVs. At the same time, their profits are going down because people still want to buy Escalates. And the most profitable part of the U.S. auto industry is trucks. you know kind of the gas guzzlers the internal combustion engines and there's something also you know i don't know if it's like my i don't know fake masculinity or desire to be strong or caveman instincts but the majority of people including myself still like the feel of an internal combustion engine and yeah i don't know i think they would switch pretty quickly i mean you know i think everyone liked landlines i guess and then they didn't like they like mobiles i i I was driving the Ford 150.

27:08It's a great car. I have to say the Lightning. It's a very powerful car. It was a terrific car. It's just expensive. And I think people are nervous, right? And it's not that they did a beautiful job. It's gorgeous and powerful and expensive. And I think people have that worry about being able to charge it, et cetera, et cetera. And it's just the consumers haven't shifted over yet. So do you imagine there being like the same thing with streaming, which is these people are all in for this, but they're going to lose a lot of money and then sort of Tesla cleans up? Because I don't know if this will help Tesla necessarily, but maybe it will.

27:47Well, I mean, already 50 % of U.S. adults have said they don't see themselves as likely EV buyers. And what's the scariest thing about that number is that it's risen. And that is more people now see themselves as less likely to own an EV. and most of it is they blame a lack of EV infrastructure. There is something weird about going on a trip and feeling vulnerable. You go to Disney like - Yeah, there's not a gas station. There's always a gas station. I remember I checked in and I went to Orlando and I checked in and I said, can you charge our car? And they said, oh, the thing we have is not working.

28:27You feel vulnerable. And then you have GM, Ford. GM and Ford have both shed, one shed 19%, Ford's off 14 % year to date. And this is an environment where their stocks look cheap and the S &P is up. Now, granted, that's largely been driven by just a small number of stocks that are inspired by AI. So they're saying they could be a quarter by 20 of new sales by 2035. But at that point, only 13 % of vehicles on the road would be electric. I was really fascinated at this conference talking to this oil and gas guy. And granted, he's talking to his own book. But he's like, if the goal is to grow the economy and the goal is to decarbon the world or get in the way of climate change, there are cheaper, more efficient ways to do it.

29:12You know, he talked about what I thought was really fascinating, and I didn't know this. He said the cheapest way to take carbon out of the air is reforestation. You know, it all comes to what is it? Although Bill Gates isn't for that. But go ahead. There's lots of arguments, but go ahead. Yeah, but it just sort of fascinated me. If the goal is just to get carbon out of the air, okay, one means is to spend money to, like, I've always, I've been, I'm really excited about the idea of sustainable aviation fuels that are just put less shit into the air. And he kind of walked me through the math and said, you'd be much better off planting trees.

29:43And I think the answer at the end of the day is we need to do. All of it. We need to do all of it. Yeah. You know, just really, really go after it. But anyways. Yeah, it's interesting. I do think people would pick an EV if that green premium came down. Like they start to pick those things, right? They start to move in that direction. Because I don't, I mean, I think not everybody likes to go vroom, vroom. But it is a different sound. There's a lot in my neighborhood. There are a mix of electric cars and a lot of hybrids, a lot of hybrids. People seem to like, feel safer in a hybrid. But the electric cars have that hmm when they come down the street, right?

30:22You can't barely hear them. I can hear them. Yeah, I have that sound and I kind of like it. I find it rather soothing rather than a vroom, vroom, vroom. And it's because there's a guy who comes every night in front of our house and parks and vroom, vroom, vrooms for some reason plays music. It's kind of this weird, we don't know what to do about it. And it's really irritating because he vrooms and he plays really bad music. And then the other person has an EV and it goes, as it comes in. So it's, I don't know, we'll see where it goes. One of the stories that actually got a lot of attention too is self-driving cars.

30:55As you know, I love self-driving cars. I do not drive in cruises because I'm more worried about them. I thought the Waymos are doing a better job in San Francisco. But there was a terrible accident in San Francisco where a driver car hit someone, was tossed into the road, and a GM cruise ran over the person and wouldn't get off because they didn't know what to do. The car didn't know what to do. It was initially caused by a human, which is the whole thing is a mess. It's a real mess. But GM's subsidiary cruise announced this week is proactively pausing driverless operations nationwide. It's been operating lots of places, including San Francisco.

31:33The California DMV suspended its license to operate, calling the vehicles not safe for public after the incident. Waymo did not. Again, I ride in Waymos and I do not ride in cruises because I know a little bit about, you know, what they're doing at Waymo versus cruise. And I felt less safe in those. You know, this driverless thing is also still going to be problematic largely because of the interaction between cars and people, like drivers, human drivers, human pedestrians, people getting used to these things. Again, a very problematic, you know, transition that's going to be happening. I still do think eventually everyone's going to be in driverless cars, and I'm a proponent of them, but it's definitely a setback.

32:20The thing I don't get about it, and I wonder if some of it is political or being sponsored, the backlash is being sponsored by varying lobbying groups who have a vested interest in the status quo, because it strikes me that we're holding algorithms and machines to a much higher standard than people. because there's something kind of scary about the idea of a machine running over someone. But there are, you know, a lot of people hit people and run over people. And I'd just love to see the data because my gut, and we should validate this, but my hypothesis would be that these things are actually less dangerous.

32:56What I have heard about EVs is that it's like your 16-year-old paranoid, paranoid, you know, very careful new driver. And that is they are so slow as to be painful and slow. They are. I told you that. I think I told you that. It's, they used to be like your grandmother driving, not a good driver and too slow. And now you're like your good aunt driver who's too slow. I think what it is, is the, is the intersection of drivers who are human and drivers who are driverless is if it was all driverless, I think we'd be a lot safer with some incidents. And And there's always going to be incidents, no matter how you slice it.

33:34But this one was really, it was a human who hit someone and then they fell into the street. Anyway, it just was terrible, is it too? Yeah, no, it is terrible. It's like, I mean, the real tragedy for me is, you know, when I drive an electric car and I've been on a long trip, it's like, you know, it's like when I have diarrhea. I'm just hoping I make it home, Kara. I'm just hoping I make it home. Sorry. Oh, God. You usually do. I have a vision of all gas stations being turned into electric charging stations. I was like, why can't we just turn a bunch of gas stations into it so that you drive up?

34:09That's the correct point. I don't think Tesla disrupted the auto industry. I think Tesla disrupted gas stations. The reason I loved my Tesla, and I'm waiting for the new Range Rover EV, is that I think the worst retail in America is TSA, grocery stores, and gas stations. Gas stations definitely feel like this is where I will somehow get cancer that emerges 20 years later or I'm going to get shot here. Gas stations just is the worst retail in the world. And the opportunity to avoid gas stations, I mean, if you look at it this way, EVs are now, I think, like 52 grand and regular cars average like, I don't know, 48 or something, whatever it is.

34:54But the thing I love about an EV is that if you have to go to the gas station once every week and it takes you, say, a total of 15 minutes to pull in, do your thing, the credit card doesn't work, you go in. And you're talking about 13 hours of time in a gas station per year. And I would say, what would someone need to pay you to wake up at 6 a.m., get to a gas station at 7 a.m. and drive around the block to the same gas station all day long and fill up until 8 p.m. that night? People would pay a lot of money to avoid that. I think it's a gas station, worst retail that has really driven EV sales.

35:28Yeah, we'll see. We'll see where it goes. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

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37:36Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. My win is being in our nation's capital. I'm always very inspired to be here. I feel very fortunate. I think the, you know, I've said to you many times, and I think you appreciate this too, that we're talented people and we work hard, but we live these extraordinary lives because of, you know, huge investments and vision that people have made before us. And, you know, the smartest thing I ever did was being born in America. And I love being here. I think it's inspiring to see the monuments and to see how many talented people are working their asses off to see, quite frankly, just how, you know, badass America is, how wealthy we are and how beautiful the buildings are here.

38:21I was, you know, in New York, we make the money and DC, they spend it, but I think they spend it really well. It's just nice to be here. I'm also very appreciative that you got me involved in this and you're going to take me on a tour of the White House. It's fun to know important, influential people. So my win is being in our great nation's capital. Well, my loss is, and I'm going to harp on about this, and I realize I have a tinfoil hat here, but I saw that boomers, 70 % of boomers support Israel or say they support Israel. And among, I guess it's Gen Z, it's 20%. And that 50 % gap can be explained at least partially by a few things.

38:58One, young people have a very healthy skepticism of anything that their parents believe. And that's part, anthropologically, of making it easier to leave the pack. and it's also part of innovation and experimentation and evolution that young people want to do things differently. And I get that. I think there's also an incorrect, in my view, conflation of civil rights and some of the obstacles that non-whites have faced in the U.S. But I don't think young people really understand the historical context here. But more than that, I still don't think that explains the 50 % gap. I think that we frame our lives and our view of the world through the media we consume.

39:38And I still don't think we have come to grips and realize the impact of one frame that is dominating all media amongst young people, and that's TikTok. And just as we have weaponized media and propaganda around the world to our advantage, I think the same thing is happening here. And I think we're going to spend, I think we're going to find out in the fullness of time that the CCP is doing what we have done in the Middle East, all over the world when we were able to drop leaflets, whatever it is, we are used to an American hegemony where we control media outlets and get to control the narrative.

40:14And they would be stupid not to be doing this. This is what we would be doing. But I wonder if the frame through which young people get their information, I also think people my age, and especially in Washington, just don't realize, just don't realize the scope, the penetration and the dominance that a CCP-controlled media outlet has over an entire generation because we're not on it. And the lack of diversity of media through which young people are getting their information, because I got to be honest, and I'm curious to get your thoughts. I'm not only disturbed by what I'm seeing on campuses, I'm actually really surprised.

40:56And I'm thinking, where are they getting their information? And the other thing that's really interesting here that we're going to have to think through is that when we firebomb Dresden, if they'd had live TikToks running of a family, I mean, this is just sort of changing everything. People forget that the Bush administration— Well, there was an America First movement back then. Actually, Rachel Mado has a book called Prequel about this, but go ahead. Yeah, but the difference, though, is that, for example, the Iraq War, The Bush administration said, we're going to have immediate blackout because we don't need to see people being killed because there's no elegant way to kill people.

41:31They just don't float away. And when you go on TikTok, and maybe this is what we need. Maybe people need to have the horrors of war thrown in their face on both sides. But when you see this beautiful mother and father and this gorgeous child and you hear missiles in the background and their Gazans, it just brings war home and away. We're not used to this. We're not used to war being live streamed like this. We're used to being in charge. And we're no longer in charge of the media that young people consume. And that might be a good thing. But I wonder if they're doing to us what we have done all through the 20th century, and that is try and frame the narrative to their advantage.

42:11Yeah, I think it's interesting. I would push people to a really very good piece in the Atlantic. I think I'm not going to pronounce this right. Simon Sabag Montefiore. And it's called The Decolonization Narrative is Dangerous and False. And the subhead is it does not actually describe either the foundation of Israel or the tragedy of the Palestinians. And I think that's what's really hard. And what happens is these these these medias reduce things to these, you know, and it does remind you of sort of, as it says, I've always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler.

42:45You know what I mean? Like you do see those kind of things. And so I think it's important to really understand things with a little more depth and also understand within Israel, there's also a split and especially around Netanyahu. I don't think, you know, before this, he did not have his, you know, it happened in this country after 9-11, you know, with George Bush, who was sort of on the bad side. And then everybody rallies around him. If you recall, maybe you don't recall. But I do think it's a much more complex thing. And I would suggest you read that Atlantic article, everybody. I think it's really quite, it is existential for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

43:30And Hamas is a terrorist organization. It's full stop. Well, to that point, and it's so hard for me not to get boomerish here, but I see these protests, campuses, including mine, NYU, and it's so striking because it's people who you would generally categorize as being very progressive and very liberal. And I think you should try and find a representative of Hamas and discuss your preferred pronouns with them. I mean, it just seems so counter to everything they stand for 23 and a half hours a day. And yet, this has evoked enormous empathy. I'm having trouble squaring the circle here. I really am, because I imagine the Israeli government taking, for some reason, having power, taking over the White House, taking over our military.

44:20I think it's sort of business as usual in America. I think they appreciate democracy, women's rights, reproductive rights, civil rights, the, you know, prosperity capitalism. And then I imagine what would happen to gay people, women, and Christians or non-Muslims if Hamas took over the White House and the U.S. military. And I see a fairly big distinction there. And I don't understand how these progressive forces on campus fail to see that. But I, you know, I've got a lot to learn here. Let me just read this last thing from the Atlantic. So the war unfolds tragically. As I write this, the pounding of Gaza is killing Palestinian children every day, and that is unbearable.

45:02As Israel still grieves its losses and buries its children, we deplore the killing of Israeli civilians, just as we deplore the killing of Palestinian civilians. We reject Hamas, evil and unfit to govern, but we not mistake Hamas for the Palestinian people whose losses we mourn as we mourn the death of all innocents. I thought that was, I think that was very well said. Anyway, it's a very difficult issue. We know we're going to get flack. Bring it on, I guess. I'm going to go to something totally different because we need to pull this out. Oh, God. Are you going to talk about Taylor Swift? No, I'm not.

45:35I'm going to talk about another fantastic woman, Brie Larson. Oh, okay. She is a series. She's executive produced, and she stars in, based on a novel by Bonnie Garmiss called Lessons in Chemistry, and it's an adaptation of that. It's on Apple TV. I got to say, it's delightful in every single way. I've just started watching it. And it's about a woman. Let me read the description whose dream of being a, this is from Harper's Birth Story, whose dream of being a scientist is obstructed by the patriarchal society in which she lives. When Elizabeth finds herself pregnant alone and fired from a job in the lab, she accepts a job as a host on a TV cooking show, all while craving to return to her true love science.

46:13It's shockingly fantastic, I just think. And Brie Larson is just so terrific. I just, I was so happy after watching it. I just don't know what else to say. I was just totally happy after watching it. I think you should. And Fail is this speaker. The more that comes out about speaking of people who love living in the 18th century and said it was better then, apparently. All this stuff is surfacing about the new speaker, Mike Johnson, and his wife, which is a pair. I think they're a pair is what they are. Their podcast, I've been listening to it, is disturbing. They have an obsession with gays and the end of gays, essentially, gay marriages.

46:51gay everything. They think having sex between a man and a woman only in a straight marriage is everything else is sinful, linking everybody else with bestiality and accept all kinds of things that we shouldn't be linked with. I find more and more that comes out about what this guy has said, the more disturbing it is that he's second in line for the president. It's really very handmade tale, this pair, it reminds me of. And I tend not to like to demonize people, But boy, these videos are like, I just had a flashback to the 1980s when I was coming out and just 70s and 80s, really. And just a flashback of that kind of language that I haven't heard in a long, long time.

47:37And there they are. The most senior Republican in our government right now is someone who said, I mean, a couple things. One, that school shootings are a function of the fact that they're teaching evolution in schools. He believes that. And then last week when asked for his worldview, when people said, we barely know you, he said, pick up a Bible. And in my view, that used to be disqualifying. If you look at the mullahs, if you look at governments that really have an ability to levy enormous cruelty on their populaces, it's usually driven by one thing, and that is religious fanaticism. And we always perceived that danger and said, okay, it's important.

48:17You have the right to worship whatever God you want. But when it comes to interpreting the Constitution, you need to recognize that many of us worship a different God or no God at all. And that this religion first, seeing, framing the Constitution or American exceptionalism through the context of one God's viewpoint, it leads to very ugly places. And we used to say that was disqualifying. And even if people felt that way, they kept it to themselves. And now we have a guy that's two heartbeats away from the presidency who's just openly saying it's about the Bible. And we never used to go there.

48:57Yep. Just so you're aware, I'm going to read this. New elected House Speaker Mike Johnson defended his extremist anti-LGBTQ views on Thursday, telling Fox News, I'm a Bible-believing Christian, adding go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it. That's my worldview. He's had a long campaign, not just against gay rights, abortion, everything. He thinks biblical beliefs are inseparable from public affairs. I know a lot of people think this, but that's not our constitution. So CNN uncovered editorials written by Johnson from 2003 to 2005, which he argued for the criminalization of gay sex, calling homosexuality inherently unnatural, dangerous lifestyles that marriage equality poses a threat for our entire democratic system, warning that polygamists, polyamorous, pedophiles, and others would next in line to claim equal protection.

49:45An old trope, but boy, That's 2003 is not that far away. Anyway, it's disturbing, I have to say. He's not moderate. He's just smiley. He's just a smiley Christian nationalist. I'm sorry. That's what he is. That's what's going on here. Anyway, that's my fail. Oh, we ended up on not a good month. Let's go back to Brie Larson and dressing up like Deadpool. Oh, by the way, a fantastic movie of Brie Larson. Did you ever see Room? Yes. Oh, I can't watch that. It's so upsetting. I can't. Oh, that's not a good one. She's amazing. That's where she got all her notice. That's where she got all her notice.

50:20It is disturbing and outstanding. I can't. Oh, now you went bad places. Let's go to the Marvels. The Marvels is coming out. We did see that at the Taylor Swift, like a preview. There's so many good previews of movies coming, including the new Hunger Games, which looks really good. That's also negative. All right. Let's go back to Brie Larson. Anyway, let's get to the White House, Scott. We got things to do. Let's go be influencers. Let's go talk about AI. That's why we're invited. We're influencers. And we're so excited. White House, are you ready for us? Anyway, we want to hear from you. Our listeners send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

50:53Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Scott, that is the show. We'll be back on Friday for more with a report from the White House and maybe some more chitty chat with some White House people. Maybe who knows? Who knows what friends will make? Maybe we'll be hanging in the oval for a while. I don't know. Read us out and let's hustle over there. Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Entretot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miel Silverio, and Gaddy McMahon. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

51:23Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Who is at the center of the most important, greatest experiment ever? That's right. That's right, the jungle cat and the dog in our nation's capital.

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