Google Antitrust Redux, Debate Predictions, and Guests Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe

23:39Oh, I've been jonesing since I wrote my book, The Four, available now on Amazon in 2017. Which, by the way, is about to be, I didn't want to bring this up because I know you won't, but has been greenlit as a original scripted series. I know that. I was going to bring it up at the end, but go ahead. Oh, yeah. Well, nevermind. I don't want to talk about it. I don't like to post, so I'll let you bring it up. Scott has sold, everybody, Buddy Scott has sold a movie to Hollywood. It seems to be involving Sheryl Sandberg. It seems to be. That is not true. It's not about Sheryl. No. It's not about Sheryl.

24:11Rosamund Pike is not playing Sheryl. No, no, no. I mean, granted, it might be about a female executive that has lied longer than any executive in history. Yeah, okay. But it won't be. It's not about Sheryl. It's a mashup of a bunch of people. Congratulations, Scott. I'm very excited for you to go Hollywood now that Hollywood's over. Kara, I'm sorry. I've outgrown you. I've outgrown you. I already sold my book. I sold my book to Hollywood. I haven't sold it to Netflix yet. All I want is to shack up in Malibu with Emily Ratajkowski. I just want it to get made. I've been trying to sell this bitch for seven years.

24:44Yeah, you tried to drag me into it. I didn't want to get Gerald Sandberg mad at me. I did. I did. I tried to get you involved. And you're like, no, I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my own thing. Can I go to the Emmys with you? Yeah. I'm going. I don't know. I'm wearing my kilt. I, you know, as you know, I'm probably most likely taking Patty Stone cipher, but. All right, very quickly, remedies. I would love to see, I think the best thing for the economy, I love breakups. If you look at the history of breakups, whether it's the aluminum guys, the steel guys, the phone guys, you never look back and think, oh, we fucked up breaking those companies up.

25:21They oxygenate the environment. They're good for shareholders. They're good for employees. More people want to rent labor. They create more tax revenue, more innovation. We found out that when we broke up AT &T, that dormant or fallow in AT &T or Bell Labs was optics, fiber, cell, all this shit. They didn't want to compete with their long distance lines, which they had a monopoly on. I would love to see a breakup. If I had to bet, it'll be a behavioral remedy that says, OK, Google, you have to make it much easier for consumers to pick another search engine. Search engine. OK. And then for the advertising?

25:51I don't know. I don't feel like I have the domain expertise. Breakup. I say you separate them. You can't be the buyer and seller in a market. What's the old double click or whatever it is? They might have to spin that. Spin that off, yeah. I think a nice fine, a nice fat fine would be good,$100 million. They don't work. $100 billion would be very welcome by publishers after enjoying it. I don't think they legally can figure out a way to live if$100 billion fine. Along with behavioral remedies and stuff like that. Well, it could be a combination. Yeah. It could be a combination. But again, the meta news here is that people are what has happened in the last 30 years.

26:28The number of journalists has been substantially reduced and the number of PR comms execs who now come up to me and interrupt me all fucking day long at the Democratic National Convention to introduce me to some VP at a fascinating new technology company. Or can get me a few minutes with the CEO of a ride hailing company. Why the fuck would I want to meet with this person who brightens up a room by leaving it? And so the ratio of spin and bullshit and our impression that these companies are noble and really concerned about the world and proud of their progress and want to make the world a better place, the jig is up.

26:59Yeah, I think the worm has certainly turned. We'll see if it continues to turn. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll speak with our friends of Pivot, Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. I'm bringing the big lesbians in, Scott.

27:15There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, are late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

28:03That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

28:13Scott, we're back. We're going right to our friends of Pivot.

28:21Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird are legendary athletes, Olympic champions, and have been dubbed by GQ, the most beloved power couple in sports. I don't know how many of them there are, but anyway, there are also hosts of the new Vox Media podcast, A Touch More. Welcome to the family, Megan and Sue. Hi. Hi. Thanks for having us. How's it going? How's the podcasting going? We are just learning on the fly. It's fun now. We're like figuring it out. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's start with that. The show was originally launched on Instagram during COVID. Explain what you are doing here with the podcast first.

28:57Well, yeah, it started, you know, I guess one edition of it, which was just we were in the pandemic, stuck in our apartment. What's something we could do together that would be fun? So we decided to go on IG Live like every Saturday at whatever time, seven o 'clock. We were drinking. We were having fun. We're talking about current events, all the things. And then fast forward a couple of years, somebody was like, hey, would you guys want to do live shows? So I'm like, all right, let's try to do that. And then it kind of morphed into what it is now as a podcast, which is definitely more women's sports bent, you know, where culture, politics, fashion, all the things meet women's sports.

29:31And we're just kind of figuring it out from there. Yeah. Shooting from the hip on a lot. It's kind of fun. Yeah. Did you feel like everyone has a podcast? You have to have one, Megan? Honestly, that's probably what kept us out of it for so long was that everybody has podcasts. We're like, oh, we don't want to be that. I can't tell you how many people will just randomly say like, oh, man, does everyone have to have a podcast now? And now I'm like, yeah, we do too. But listen to Ari. But listen to Ari. So why did you call it a touch? Where's the name from? You want this one? It's all yours. Honestly, we were in the pandemic.

30:02We were probably like six weeks into the pandemic. You know, obviously our lives at that time were totally interrupted. We couldn't really like work out. We didn't know, you know, if it was airborne or not. We didn't know if the Olympics were happening or not. So we're trying to like stay in a certain level of shape. but obviously can't. Trying to train and do all the things, but really just like eating and drinking in our apartment and, you know, having cortisol levels to the roof like everybody else. And at one point, at one point, Sue looks at me and she's like, do I like, do I, have I like gained wage?

30:35Do I look like, you know, what, you want to jump in? The same. No. Yeah. And I was like, no, I mean, I don't know, like maybe a touch more, but like, no. Oh. Yeah, I know. Total fail. You were set up from the start. I misread the situation. Set up from the start. I'll own it. Apparently, honesty is not the best policy, but here we are. Yeah, a touch more. Oh, my God. That's where it comes from. So you are, of course, a WNBA legend, having played with the Seattle Storm for 19 seasons. That's an astonishing thing. But the WNBA is having a remarkable season with record viewership and attendance, thanks in large part to rookies like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, who's now out for the season after an injury.

31:13I just love your assessment of what they should be doing to build the enthusiasm. And Megan, I'd love you to jump in because it's sports, how to get people to do more sports. the New York Liberty has seen 130 % year-over-year increase in season ticket membership. They've raised their prices, as have a number of WNBA teams. And I also want to mention, Sue joined the ownership group for the Seattle Storm earlier this year. Why don't you start, Sue? Sure. I mean, my answer to this question is that we already did it. We already did it. The product on the floor has never been better. It has continued to be kind of like the rock of the league throughout the course of my career and then now.

31:54So that part, you know, check that box. I think the businesses, obviously we get a lot of help from the NBA, but now each individual team's business is being run with the future in mind, right? Not just how we're going to get by this year. So things have been, the foundation has been built for many, many years. And now what you're seeing is we finally, through all the work we've done, yes, in the last 28 years, which is a league's existence, but also more so in the last like four or five years. Now we're at this point where the way I like to look at it, we have crossed this imaginary line of celebrity that usually male athletes automatically cross the minute they're drafted, the minute they play.

32:33For some reason, the WNBA was held back. We know those reasons. A lot of them end with an ism. And so now that we've crossed that line, you're seeing that people are looking at us differently. They're looking at the league differently. When they get offered WNBA tickets, you know, not just celebrities, general, you know, people in general, but when they get offered, now it's like, oh, yeah, let me check that out. Whereas used to be like, eh, is it worth it? So somehow we have crossed that line. And now that we're on the other side, I just imagine business is going to continue to boom. The only thing that we talk about a lot is wanting people, whether it's corporate partnership, networks, you name it, we want them to look at our potential.

33:12We've gotten to that point. Like we've proven it. We're here. We've done the thing. We've done the thing without your support. Now imagine what it would look like if we had your support. So people can see our potential. That's where the business is going to take off in another direction. So Megan, if you could comment, because in all, I mean, it's the same thing that's happening with soccer and other things. But talk about that invisible line of celebrity and what it does. Like what do you think has happened? Is it because, say, your team did so well or people were looking at women's sports in general?

33:41though they don't separate they separate out men's sports pretty easily i mean i think it's a combination of a lot of things but i think just in general the sort of changing tide in the the country even i mean even through the pandemic obviously the wmba's work and getting reverend warnock and senator warnock um elected but it's also like i honestly feel like the people with the money and we normally know who those people are ran out of excuses or things that they could sort of blame on not investing in women's sports. And now all of them are like flocking, you know, like it's like Bob Iger bought into, you know, the team in LA Angel City FC.

34:23So I feel like it's like we can't say that it's not fun anymore. We can't say that like everyone's gay and we don't like that anymore. Like being overtly racist isn't really that cool anymore. And so I feel like in a lot of ways it just kind of like crossed this threshold. I think social media was a big part of that. Players could get their own stories out, different ways to disseminate media. I think that increased TV viewership, increased, you know, investment from not only existing ownership groups, but new ownership groups coming in. And it's actually like, okay, fine, we'll stop discriminating.

34:58Like, we'll just see how the business goes. To your point about the, you know, the sort of potential men get invested on potential and what they might do eventually. all the time. That's sort of the baseline. For women, it's like you have to do the thing, catch lightning in the bottle. And then even then, sometimes they're like, well, I mean, are you going to do it again? And I feel like women's sports just constantly keeps doing it again and again and again. I think 2019 World Cup was huge for that. You know, having an American team be able to sort of like capture the zeitgeist in that way, the WNBA.

35:30Obviously, we saw how how prominent women were in the Olympics across all different sports. So I feel like it's just in general a changing tide in the country, but it's also like a really good business that has massive upside that's already as successful as it's been under the foot. So imagine if you took the foot off and actually gave it some water. Megan and Sue, good to see you. Congrats on the pod. So just a quick piece of advice. Just I would not have a partner in podcasting. That's where shit really comes off the rails. But anyways, that's just my suggestion. I'm fascinated by, I'm like Kara, I'm not really into sports, but I got very into the Premier League living in the UK because my sons are super into it.

36:13And I've actually been thinking a lot about it as a business. And I'm convinced that within a decade, the Premier League is going to be the biggest export, the biggest British export. I'm just fascinated or shocked, whatever the term is, by how strong these brands are globally. There's something like 30 million Man U fans in Indonesia. Yeah, that's crazy. What is it about football, having played the sport so well for so long, that these brands have become so global? The Dallas Cowboys, I mean, you know, the New England Patriots, okay, they have some fans in Argentina, but not a lot. And yet these football clubs, especially in the Prem, have turned into global brands.

37:01They've gone global. Do you have any thoughts on what it is about football and specifically the Prem and these brands that have resonated globally? I mean, the whole world plays football. And I don't know if like when America started, we were just like, let's just make our own thing and keep it here in America and it'll be bigger than everybody else. Yeah, we'll call it football and it'll be bigger than everyone. You know, the sort of hubris of that because it's like obviously people play basketball elsewhere and nobody plays American football. But the rest of the world plays football. It's like unbelievably accessible.

37:32You just need a ball or you tape a bunch of stuff together and make that your ball and you can play anywhere. I think the history just like how long these teams have been around and I think the like the week to week sort of storytelling that you get and then that it's like week to week, month over month, season over season, generation after generation you're like passing down this like heritage of being an Arsenal fan or being an Everton fan and what that means it's like your way of life in England And then, you know, the billions of people around the world play soccer. And that's been the probably the best league, the most invested in league, the top league for a very, very long time.

38:19Soccer is just great. And outside of, this is more a question made for both of you and brings Sue in, I think it's different leagues or different sports as asset classes. Some are increasing in value, some are decreasing in value. Outside of the WNBA or football, where you both are going to have a bias, what sports, as you look across the landscape or what leagues do you think are increasing the most in value and also decreasing the most in value? I've heard the NFL has an aging problem, for example, or its viewers are aging. Any thoughts on which assets are increasing or decreasing? I think it's, I mean, I feel like in male sports, honestly, the screw has been turned and is being turned to milk every little last thing.

38:56And they're thinking, okay, can we get augmented reality? And obviously the betting has been huge. But yeah, I mean, I think all women's sports is on the up because it's been so underinvested in and there's such an investment gap. There's so much room to grow across media platforms, live platform, like all of it. But, I mean, the NFL just seems to rake in money, but I just have to believe at some point, like, that's just going to run out. I mean, at some point, it's not going to be okay that, you know, however many percentage of the players have brain damage. That just feels, like, unsustainable.

39:33Yeah, oftentimes when I think of this question, not worded the way you worded it, I'll look at the NFL, the NBA, whatever it is, and I'll be like, what's going to take this down? Or what's going to decrease this value? or what's going to change player's salary? We keep waiting and it doesn't happen. I actually don't think it will. I think just to Megan's point, other assets are going to grow and reach those levels, hopefully. Why did you, talked about you joining the ownership group for the Seattle Storm. How did that entail? Did they ask you in? Did you put a lot of money in? Yeah. How did it work?

40:04Yeah, so I mean, I played there, even though it's 19 seasons, I was actually there 21 years, two seasons I was injured. So obviously my entire adulthood essentially was spent in Seattle, I felt like I already had ownership of the team in some ways. So later in my career, a conversation with a friend, you know, do you want to coach? Do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? And she was like, Diana Tarazi, she was like, I want to own. And I was like, yeah, that's what I want to do too. So it was kind of a seed that had been planted. So when I retired, they did approach me. It ended up taking, give or take like a year and a half, two years to get it done.

40:37Not because of anything other than just me being in retirement and wanting to take my time with these types of things. But yeah, they wanted me involved. I wanted to stay involved. So there is a little bit of a heartstring reason. Like I would never, I don't, I can't see myself owning at the time, especially owning, being part of another ownership group. But then it was like, wait a minute, this is a good business decision. This is a good investment. And yeah, I did have to put money in. The WNBA has, I mean, the ways in which my businesses, just everything got vetted. I was like, but it's just me.

41:11I was like, I'm not going to do anything shady. It's just me. But they really get in there with a fine tooth comb. So, you know, they weren't just going to give equity for free. I had to buy in in a very real way. I mean, for me in a very real way, maybe not for the rest of the ownership group, but for me in a very way. And I look at it as a great business. I mean, I'm getting in early and I feel very thankful for that. And that's actually part of my pitch, or it had been for such a long time. Telling people who were questioning or had questions around the WNBA, I'd be like, get in now because in five to ten years, A, the price will be too high, and B, you'll look like a genius looking back on it.

41:46Right. But how, Megan, you have not bought into it. You've cost, I mean, had so much value created by you and your team. How do you look at it? Because most players don't have a piece in anything, right? Correct? Yeah, that's definitely something that I want. The club that I played for in Seattle, Seattle Reign, just went through an ownership change, part the Sounders group, part Carlisle group. So that was kind of a long process of getting them all through. And I'm hoping that those conversations start to open up. I definitely want to and think that I deserve it. I do think there's been a lot of value creation.

42:21And oftentimes female athletes don't get to participate in that real upside. I mean, even just like the valuations or teams sold over this last like, you know, three, four or five year period, obviously, without the likes of myself, Alex, you know, the rest of the national team that just doesn't exist. So I feel like, you know, we don't always get to retroactively get what we deserve. But hopefully those conversations are happening soon. So we talk a lot about organizations that have, you know, the perception is not match reality. Apple is not as kind and as gentle as their image. I think higher education is basically the enforcer of the caste system, not a bunch of noble people sitting around a fire petting their Labrador.

43:02I would argue that one of the greatest enforcers of systemic racism is the NCAA, that they have figured out a way that old white guys coaching make millions of dollars and young, mostly non-white people on the floor for the purity of the sport don't make shit. in probably the only three or four years they're going to have an opportunity to make that kind of money. I'm curious what you think about the NCAA and the fulcrum between amateur and professional athletics, and if in fact it's nothing but a thinly veiled ruse to maintain all of the spoils for older, mostly, quite frankly, mostly white individuals.

43:43Your thoughts? I totally agree. I think it's like people love to tell this fairy tale of the purity of the sport and for the love of the game. I mean, we have people all the time for us in soccer, especially when we were going through our equal pay battle. They're like, we really want you to get, but like, you know, we kind of like love that you guys still just like do it for the love of it. And like the men, they just get paid so much and like they don't even care. And I was like, oh, no, no, no. I want to be paid as much as them. Like, give me that problem to solve myself. Also, like, that's not really true.

44:18But it is. It's a way to control. I mean, I think especially for women, we talk about like the purity of the game. Like, what are we really talking about here? It's like weirdly like hypersexual in some kind of way where you have to be controlled and demure and like grateful and all that. And I know not even the not even the TikTok trend. I'm not on TikTok. I don't know how it works. But I totally agree with you. And then the NCAA, like that's just a billion dollar business that has essentially free labor or low cost because you're paying for their school and their housing and stuff like that.

44:51but they don't get to participate in any of the upside and the whole business is based around them. So I mean, it's obviously a little wild, wild west with the NIL and people are upset about it. And some kind of I always find it funny when the coaches are upset about it. Can you talk about the NIL? Yeah, I love the NIL. I think I mean, I'm definitely biased in this conversation. You could argue NIL impacts women's basketball more than any other sport. Football, a lot of other male sports. Yeah, they're going to make money now via NIL, but they were going to make money when they got drafted anyways.

45:22So, yeah, I guess there's like a certain scenario where a player who doesn't go on to have a long professional career gets to capitalize in college. But generally speaking, those guys go and make money. For women, women's basketball is probably the most popular women's NCAA sport. And now they get to participate in that in a real way. And for me, again, bias, they're now going to take all of that brand money, what it does when you have those partnerships in college, you're now creating a brand yourself. look at Caitlin Clark, look at Paige Beckers, look at Angel Reese. You knew them in college, and now you're going to follow them to the WNBA.

45:54So I love NIL for other reasons. So just to press pause, NIL, as I understand it, is name, image, and likeness. It became an issue when one of my heroes, Ed O 'Banion, who did not go on for a great career, but was an amazing athlete. His image was used on a bunch of online video games, and he wasn't getting a single penny. So can you talk a little bit about why that's important? Has it impacted the two of you? Are you starting to collect royalties and money from your images being used in other mediums? No. When the Ed O 'Banion case, I guess, got decided, I want to say I was outside of whatever years they chose.

46:33Like I didn't, it was only like a, what's like statute of limitations kind of a thing. So I was outside of that, if memory serves. I would think FIFA would be all over you. NIL is really just college. Yeah, it's mostly specific to college. So NIL for us, we call that marketing. Oh, thank you. I didn't know that. We're like, oh, I have a marketing deal. Oh, I signed with, you know, CarMax or whatever we're talking about. So NIL is just specific to the amateur. And yeah, the NCAA blocked all athletes from being able to capitalize on their name and general likeness. So if their jersey was sold, they didn't participate in that.

47:04If they were used in any kind of anything with the school, with the NCAA tournament, they couldn't participate financially in that. And so now there's ways where they can negotiate their own deals with brands, their own deals in different ways. They get paid for those things now, which never existed. Which you built it and created the situation so they could get this, but you don't benefit from it. I mean, yeah, every former athlete. Yeah, because listen, why do you watch college sports? It's because of the athletes and they're the ones with the big names. What I always find interesting is when an NIL does this a little bit, or just the conversation around being an amateur and is this fair?

47:42Because what college coaches in a lot of universities, where they go is, well, how do we do this in recruiting? How is this fair if one school has more money and they can offer that? Or, you know, whatever the case may be, this whole idea of fairness. And what I hate is how athletes, we're susceptible to conversations around fairness. We're very susceptible, right? We live in a world where we're just trying to make it fair. We get drug tested to make it fair. You know, I always joke. It's like if Megan and I were playing on separate teams and we were in a tournament and our semi-finals, if my semi-finals game was at 5 p.m.

48:17and Megan's was at 1 p.m. And then the next day was the final, athletes would be like, oh, they got four more hours of rest. Like that's how in the weeds we get on this fairness. So I just hate because I feel like they take advantage of athletes when they try to put But it's not fair. How are we going to recruit? Because we all want it to be fair. That's like our whole livelihoods are based on that. And so I just don't like how they tap into that with this NIL conversation. Because for coaches, nobody's worried about their money. Nobody's worried when they transfer, which takes us into a transfer portal, which is a whole other bag of worms.

48:48Yeah. Okay. Let me change this topic. We talk a lot on our show about the negative impact of social media on kids and teens. But it's an issue for athletes as well. You recently talked in the podcast about the trolls that athletes face. Megan said the negativity shouldn't be the default, but it is. Do you think that you guys are very active on social media? Do you think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to athletes on social media? And talk a little bit about how you use it yourself. I think it's such a personal thing. And like, I think there's stigma sort of both ways. There's stigma about using it and then looking in the comments, but then being like affected by it.

49:28And then, of course, if you don't use it, there's business implications to that. I mean, the way I use it, I feel like after kneeling, when I kneeled with Colin Kaepernick in 2016, social media was obviously a thing and around. And I just feel like I understood right away that, like, I don't even think there was the amount of, like, trolls or bots that there is now, obviously. But I was like, this is just troll. This is just bullshit. Like, people are just in here saying the crazy thing. and so I don't really get included for you Donald Trump but go ahead yeah yeah I don't really like get in the comments I feel like I use it as a way to express myself I'm not really looking to get anything like back from it necessarily whether it's comments or whatever but but you're Megan's unique in that yeah I am very unique in that and I was also like I came to it a little bit older I feel like my brain wasn't like formed around it like kids are now I really like feel for them it's so like woven into the fabric of their upbringing and their like social understanding of how to be.

50:30And it's really difficult. I always just suggest athletes like don't get in your comments, like be in the real world. Like you have people around you, friends, family advisors, all the things like stay in that world. But also I understand that sometimes that's like impossible to do, but it's kind of a hellscape in there. Yeah, it's a it's a fake place with real consequence. And so I think you always have to have some sort of balance in that. Whenever you feel like that balance is out of whack, you got to find a way to recenter it. Because I do think, again, coming from the lens of a woman's athlete in this country, especially a basketball player, especially with the WNBA, it has 100 % helped us grow.

51:15It has helped individuals have brands. It has helped us get messages out. It has helped us bring awareness to certain things. Without it, I don't know if the league is where it is right now. So it's hard for me to say that it's a bad thing, but then also it's a cesspool. So you have to find that balance. And that is the tricky part. I feel like that's where I'm hopeful that every, I don't know, eight-year-old right now is taking, they have like a, it's like social studies, English, social media. But it's also like I find it really frustrating. Like there's and you guys talk about this all the time.

51:46This is well known. Like the media companies and the Internet companies have done almost nothing to stop what they know is happening. And now it's like, yeah, I mean, cat's kind of out of the bag. Like, how do you roll back, whether it's bots or trolls or just like the sort of devolving of conversation or decorum or norm or like kindness that is now just the norm on the Internet? Like, the norm is just to like whatever kind of quip you can get back, whatever kind of like little negative thing that someone can type, whether it's a fan or someone on social media or whatever it is, like that seems the default.

52:22But it's like, where's their responsibility? Like, I understand we're consuming this product. We've been wondering for a while. And it's just like, yeah. So that's a whole other conversation. So it's fascinating, or I should say, I don't understand and think it's a bad idea when couples go into business together. I feel as if it's putting all your eggs in one basket. Thanks. The eggs were already there. Mine are actually frozen. But I guess the question is, a lot of people do it, and it works out really well for a lot of people. Do you have any best practices or rules to try and maintain the health of the business and your personal relationship, given that you're obviously just so involved with each other, you know, during work hours and non-work hours?

53:09Well, we're figuring it out. We're figuring it out on the fly. We talk about a lot of our business stuff with our couples therapists and I'm sure in our individual therapy as well. I know I do. We have really great people that work with us, and we're trying it. It could go up in flames, and if it does, we're going to pull this clip and be like, Scott was right. And it could all just come shattering down. But I feel like, I don't know, we're also enjoying it, and it's fun, and we get to talk about something that we really love in women's sports, which is something obviously we both played, and it's such a big part of our relationship, and we're just out here giving it away.

53:46Yeah, I think the time management of it all is maybe the most difficult. like when are we working? When are we not? Because a lot of our lives is what you're seeing on this podcast. Like this is what we talk about in our day-to-day lives. So at times it's like, okay, when do we shut this off? When are we just chilling? When are we? Because that's the only time for me personally, I'm just telling you this for the first time. That's the only time for me personally where it gets blurry or kind of like, oh, I don't want to talk about this right now. We just talked about it for the last 12 hours. But then simultaneously, this is, what you see right now is like this is it.

54:18This is our lives. We just happen to have a camera and a microphone in front of our faces. But then at the same time as athletes, our whole lives have been that. So this isn't like a new dynamic. We're not like getting used to being on air or doing something weekly. Weekly is almost easy. I mean, we had to go to practice every day. That was annoying. This is easy. Just an observation. Therapists say they can tell within the first session and counseling for couples if it's not going to work out, if there's an eye roll. when you guys were talking about it, you were looking at each other and I got the sense you wanted to touch each other.

54:51Oh, touch me. You wanted to like grab hands or... So I'm... I'll get your thumbs up. No, but your body language, I hope people watch the video because your body language during that moment was very mutual affectionate. Scott, the therapist is going to give you things. I never touch Scott. So that does not happen with Kara. Oh, you got to give him a hug every now and then. There's no passing glances of affection. No, no. No, there's a lot of affection. I listen to you guys all the time. There's a lot of affection there. There is. Let me we have just a couple more questions. You both endorsed Kamala Harris back in July in one of the first big fundraising Zooms.

55:27What do you think about the role of the Megan, you particular have been more political. Again, I noted, you know, you're wrangling with Trump and he comes back. He's probably going to try to wrangle more with people like you or you in particular. How do you look at your political role? Because you jumped right in there. You didn't even look backwards when you were doing those things. I mean, I feel like, and I think this is actually how it's supposed to be, like you're supposed to participate in whatever kind of way. I always say like politics interacts with you whether you're into it or not. You know, you drive on the streets and you're governed by your politicians.

56:05And so you might as well get involved. And I feel like this is the way that I can. I obviously am a, you know, a famous person and played sports and I have, you know, a number of followers and sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. I don't know what they're doing. But like, for me, I'm going to say it. I'm going to try to, in some way, make the world a better place. and I think particularly against the sort of like authoritarian, sexist, gross, strongman, you know, type of Trump. But there's been others too. And there's been, you know, sort of others in my life and in sports and all that.

56:41Like, I just, I know I have a place of privilege and security and kind of like safety. Like, this doesn't affect my daily life when I, you know, say something bad about Trump. But this like really affects people's daily lives, whether that's like through hate crimes or policy or whatever it is. So I just feel a sense of responsibility, to be honest, as a citizen, as an American citizen, to like do my part in whatever way that is. And I think the more people do that and step out and say, the more community they'll find and the more people that they're like, you know, can actually have a real interaction with.

57:17And I mean, I think we all saw the first term of the Trump presidency and it was a total disaster and it ended with a coup. So, I mean, that's just like, that's just a tiny taste of... What will you do if he wins? How do you look at your role? Oh, God. It's just terrifying. I mean, I think we just have to continue to fight. And I think probably the next thing after he wins would be, you know, going hard on the midterms and trying to change. Like, there's no other way. This is the system that we're in. We need to keep talking about it. We need to keep educating ourselves and people and we need to keep voting people in who reflect the values that we have personally and as a society.

57:59I mean, that would really that would really suck. That would really be hard. I vividly remember 2016. I was in San Jose and Santana Rowe in November and like waking up to, you know, falling asleep, but waking up to the reality of, you know, not just that Hillary lost. And I was obviously like supportive of her and really wanted that and having the first, you know, woman president. But also just that like most of the country was like grab them by the pussy is OK. And like I don't think everybody really understands how scary that is for us and for, you know, a huge portion of the population. So to me, it just seems second nature to be involved.

58:41And I think everybody has a responsibility to do that. But I also think that I have some kind of influence and I might as well use it to do something good. If I could just add something from the athlete's perspective that I've learned. So our world, we know so intimately, similar to how you know your world so intimately. So soccer, basketball, we know it to the depths. I can't tell you how many articles I read that are just wrong. I can't tell you how many takes that I see that are just blatantly wrong, just wrong, literally, like factually wrong, all kinds of wrong. And I think I've known that for a very long time.

59:14I'm sure everybody in this conversation has. And that's when I realized from a political standpoint, oh, I can't just believe every article. I can't just believe every take. And that really, I think, ignited something in me on the education knowledge standpoint. So listen, everybody has whatever platform they have, whether it's, you know, 10 million people or one person. And I just feel like in my little world, I just try to be as knowledgeable as possible and understanding as possible. And I just try to share that with people around me who might not be doing as much deep diving. And I think that's how you can also, you know, have impact.

59:47You're absolutely right. One of the things that drives me crazy is when they tell the athletes or celebrities, stay in your lane. I'm like, it is their lane. They're citizens. Why do you get to talk about politics and not them? But you do get a lot of pushback as either a celebrity or an athlete when you do something like that. All right, Scott, last question. What is your approach to kids and sports? Like, what do you do with respect to, I apologize, do you guys have kids? No. God, no. Okay, so what advice would you have? Only Kara has the militia. Kara has the kids. The way you both said that in unison, like, no, thank the Lord.

1:00:25Anyways, what would your approach be for, I'm very conflicted because I played sports. I think it's a wonderful thing. I want to encourage my kids, but I don't want to be that obsessed parent. I see real negatives around, quite frankly, some kids who are amazing athletes and how their entire childhood is almost given up oftentimes to pursue the dad or the mom's dream, not theirs. So how would you counsel parents who, say, have a gifted athlete around the level of encouragement slash pressure you put on your kids to get? Because there's just no getting around it now. In today's world, if you want your kid to be a professional athlete, at the age of three, they've got to be swinging a ping pong paddle that looks like a tennis racket.

1:01:18It's insane how competitive and early they have to start. What are your thoughts? I think first and foremost, and this was something my parents did with my sister and I, I'm a twin, and we both played together growing up, was they let us be the driver, so to speak. Like, if you want to do it, we'll do it. But, like, we're not going to be, A, forcing you to do it or, B, dragging you around and spending all our time, energy, and money to do that. So let the kids sort of be the driver in those decisions. Calm down. It's like if you are yelling at your kids' games, yelling at your kid, putting these like expectations on, like you need to check yourself and probably into rehab.

1:02:03Just check yourself into rehab because there's something serious going on. It's just like at the end of the day, especially when they're so young, I understand what you're saying, Scott. Like you have to have them in, you know, this club team and this traveling team and, you know, otherwise they're like so left behind. But I think what ends up happening is like 99.9 % of the kids' experience is now ruined because there's only one kid going pro. Like most likely your kid is not going pro. Maybe they're going to play college and that would be a huge accomplishment. But like most likely that's not what's happening.

1:02:36So what are the benefits that we're actually looking for here? And then, yeah, I mean, I just think like not putting pressure on them. There's pressure enough for kids, particularly with social media and, you know, what they're feeling in that realm. And, you know, they're going to put pressure on themselves. Like, let them just enjoy it and have fun and try to be the sort of, I don't know, protector is the right word, but be the example that you would like to see from the world for your kid. If you're the first person putting pressure on your kid and all of that undue influence and, you know, sort of like all over them, like that's what they're going to kind of see reflected back in the world.

1:03:16So I would just say like, and also most likely your kid's not going pro. So like relax. That part. I would say what I learned throughout my career, but definitely looking back is don't, you know, it's like a common quote, but don't mistake activity for achievement. And what I'm seeing with a lot of youth sports, a lot of my friends talk about it, their kids are on entirely too many teams going to entirely too many practices. And it's just for what? They're just they're just being active. Like, what are they actually gaining? What are they learning? I feel like when I see even younger professional athletes, I can tell they don't know the game.

1:03:51And so I think from a parent standpoint, listen, some are going to have sports backgrounds. Some aren't similar to what I was just saying about politics. Like educate yourself on maybe just the best map, the best, you know, route for your kid. Maybe it's just one or two teams, not four or five, right? And then maybe you want an individual coach. I know a lot of people are doing that now. I never had that personally, but I can acknowledge that times have changed in terms of what's needed. I just think kids are doing entirely too much and therefore not learning anything. And that to me, that development part is getting missed out on.

1:04:26And it's going to impact them long term. And then again, I mean, what Megan said, you're probably not going pro. So what are you really trying to teach your kid here? Like, think about those lessons, not just are you putting the ball in the basket? I actually was thrilled today. One of my sons said he didn't want to play baseball anymore. I was like, yay, I hate it. I hate it. It's so good you're not playing. Just so you know, Sue, I'm going to put out something whenever we see each other. My son Alex, who's quite tall, he's about 6 '5", thinks he can take you in a game. Of what? Basketball. He plays a lot.

1:05:02He does a lot of dunking. And he's like, she can't dunk like I can. And I said she will. And he can't shoot. And let me get my eyes on this guy. All right. Okay. I just want you to be aware. You're going to have to. He's not the only 6 '5 player I've ever played again. Well, I know that you don't want to have kids. You were just saying you didn't want to have kids. I really need you to help me with teach a lesson. Yeah, that's Billie Jean and Bobby Riggs part two with the same outcome. Not even Bobby. Anyway, just so you know. Anyway, thank you so much, Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. If you want to hear more expert analysis of the business of sports from Megan and Sue, check out A Touch More podcast weekly on Wednesdays on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and, of course, on the Vox Media Podcast Network.

1:05:41Thank you guys so much and welcome, really, truly. Congrats. Nice to see you. I know you said you were going to take us. No way. No. We wish you good luck. We're learning earnestly from you. Yeah, yeah. That's all right. You can dunk on us if you want. Anyway, thank you guys so much. We really appreciate it. And really good luck. And everyone should listen. It's a great podcast. Thank you. Thanks, y 'all. Thanks for having us. All right, Scott. One more quick break. What do you think of those two? Super, super impressive. Both of them on the field and off the field. They're amazing. And we're thrilled that they're with Vox.

1:06:11Now we're going to be back for our debate predictions.

1:06:18During that conversation, we're like, well, I wonder if it's the same with AI, right? Are we using a lot of power in AI that's not giving us a great benefit? And that's really what sort of kicked off a series of research efforts around this, trying to understand how do we make things more energy efficient? So this was the 21st century equivalent of Newton's apple falling from a tree. Join me, Chris Hadfield, on the On Energy podcast. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

1:07:15Only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now.

1:07:21Okay, Scott, the presidential debate is tonight. So, all right, give me your prediction for the debate. I'm not watching it. Neither are you, I think. I'm not watching it, which is because, just to be blunt, I think chances are he's going to do better than people think. Her medium is being on an elevated podium with questions prepped by staff. And basically, she's playing what she was, district attorney slash attorney general. I don't think she's as good on her feet as he is. I'm hoping that he continues to show signs of being addled and cognitive decline. I gotta be honest Kara I'm really worried about it I think the expectations around her momentum have become too high and I do think he's good I think he's good on his feet so I can't I just can't watch it I'm too nervous about it I feel nervous that she hasn't done more interviews and debates I do I think he's done like dozens you know even if they suck and she's out of shape they do suck up to him he hasn't done anything tough he hasn't done a tough interview but he's done a lot, right?

1:08:29So he's out there doing things. And I think she needed to be more, I don't know, it's interesting. We'll see if she, she certainly is capable of it, right? She's fast. You know, when she was in Congress. She was good against Pence. So she's got to have a lot of stuff ready to go and then move quickly, you know, as a good courtroom attorney does, I think. One of the reasons I wanted a competition, not a coronation, was I thought, But realistically, she was the odds-on favorite. And that competition, the primary, produces really outstanding candidates who are battle-tested and are ready for almost anything because their colleagues have been shitposting them and going after them on the debate stage.

1:09:12And quite frankly, she's not combat ready. So we'll see. I'm pulling for her. I'm so nervous about the thing. I can't watch it. But I think the expectations, because of the unbelievable momentum that she and her team have established, create just expectations where unless she resoundingly beats him, it'll be disappointing for her. I think his, he has to, what I was saying on another medium was that he has to not repel women more, right? And she has to attract men. Women are with her, like, by a number that's enormous, right? Yeah. She owns the women vote. Old men and young women have already voted.

1:09:53Yeah. So it's a question of whether he can stop repelling them. Because he continues to. By the way, he may be out there, but every time he opens his mouth, he says something incredibly offensive. Whether it's, these people wouldn't be my chosen one for sexual harassment. Things like that. And, of course, Vance is out there a lot, but he continues to say stupid things almost daily. Which, I don't think it matters. Although that would be an interesting debate. I do think that if he says something terrible, which he is, I think, here's the issue that I think people need to pay attention to. The visual of her, across from him, a woman, a woman of color, an attractive woman, is going to shake him, is going to trigger him.

1:10:39I don't know if he can stand it. He is helped by the debate, the mics being muted. And her hope is he calls her a name, right? He calls her a name. Not nasty woman, something really unpleasant. That's unpleasant enough for women. But that is the hope, is that he gets so rattled by her. The other thing is he could appear too quiet, like too—they want happy Trump. But there's also comatose Trump. You've seen it before, right? Where he did it at the economic club, that kind of Trump. And that shows lack of energy, so he seems old. That is his problem. she's just got to be as sharp as a fucking tack.

1:11:20She really does. The one piece of advice I would have for the Harris campaign would be stop falling into the same trap Democrats have been falling into for the last two years. And that is we spend all of our capital and energy talking about why he would be bad for America. She needs to totally focus on why she would be good for America. Almost like ignore him and outline her plans. Every time she talks, it should be divided into two things. The first median is the following. Fact check him. He just said, inflation is out of control. No, it's not. It's the lowest in the G7. And your plans of tariffs and restricting immigration would be highly inflationary.

1:12:02Now, let me tell you about the three things we have planned. She needs, instead of, I wouldn't even go to the sexual abuse. I just wouldn't even talk about, don't get indignant. you're awful. That does not work. We know he's awful. Yeah. We know everybody knows that she needs to outline. She needs to show a series of policies. She needs to come across as a, in my view, a little bit wonky fact check, right? Okay. You want to, you claim it would be over in a day in Ukraine. This is what's happened in Ukraine. This is what we plan to do with our allies. These are the people I have talked to in NATO.

1:12:36This is what Supreme Allied Commander thinks this is why Finland's extension of NATO across an 800 mile border across Russia is a good thing for us. She needs to come across like, I got this. It's got to be more, in my opinion, than happy, nice, not Donald Trump. It has to be. Right. A hundred percent. I get this. Who is she? I got my hands on the wheel. You know, I think it'll be it'll be an interesting show and it's important. But what's your prediction? I think she might if she has a moment, it will be great for her. She could really use this to keep the momentum. She raised three times as much as he did.

1:13:12I think that's the statistic I'm looking at. If you go out of your way to give money, it means you want to vote. How is she equal if she's raising three times as much money? Anyway, that's an interesting thing. Anyway, we'll see what happens, and we'll talk about it on Thursday, but we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Pivot. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more. Please read us out. Today's show is produced by Larry Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

1:13:44Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Jew Burroughs and Emil Saverio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I will see you in Scotland.

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