Jane Fonda on How to Turn Rage Into Hope: On with Kara Swisher

21:18Jane Fonda:How do you apply that today when you're doing this?

21:21Kara Swisher:Organizers are on the ground in a way that the Democratic Party hasn't been. I think a lot of what's happening today is because the Democratic Party got in bed with its donors and stopped talking to people, especially in the middle of the country. People used to see the party come in and put money into a community. Here,$10 ,000, organize your community. That kind of thing isn't happening anymore. And you can't organize with this. You can rally, but you can't organize. And we have to get back to the organizing. You know, Mamdani's big success was because he talked to people. He listened. It was local.

22:05Kara Swisher:And I think that that needs to happen again.

22:07Jane Fonda:You said that the Democratic Party leaders are not good enough and they aren't doing what they need to do to stand up to authoritarianism. They are not in power right now, two at the same time. But are there any Democrats like Mamdani bucking the trend and impressing you? Do you see it around the country as you go around?

22:24Kara Swisher:On down ballot levels and in Congress, some of the people that we've gotten, I mean, Greg Kesar, for example. In Texas. I've interviewed him.

22:32Jane Fonda:He's very impressive.

22:33Kara Swisher:Yeah. And he was like the very first year that we formed the PAC. He was one of our candidates. There are people like him now, you know, everybody say, oh, you're going to vote for president. It's too soon. We don't know what's going to happen between now and 28. And, you know, also the president is already telling us that he's prepared to mess with the midterms. and we can see signs of that trying to do away with mail-in ballots, all kinds of ways in which they're trying to get in the way of a really fair election in the midterms. And what this means is that registering voters and inspiring people to vote is an organizing tool.

23:15Kara Swisher:We have to put all of our energy now into inspiring people to vote. Not even so much to do with who the candidate is. This is a tool that we still have, and if we don't use it now, It's not going to be there later. I mean, this is a real case of use it or lose it. Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, so exercise democracy.

23:36Jane Fonda:So one of the things you talk about is the ability for, you know, you're a well-known person. And one of the things you've also been doing, you just talked about mainstream media being taken over also. And the new media, too. And the new media. Now, you've been speaking out against Netflix's proposed purchase of Warner Brothers Discovery. You haven't minced your words in opposition. I'm going to read part of the statement you put out. Today's news that Warner Brothers Discovery has accepted a purchase bid as an alarming escalation of the consolidation that threatens the entire entertainment industry.

24:05Jane Fonda:The Democratic public, it serves in the First Amendment. Make no mistake, this is not just a catastrophic business deal that could destroy our creative industry. It's a constitutional crisis exacerbated by the administration's demonstrated disregard for the law. On the other hand, the other bidder is Larry Ellison and the Paramount folks who have their own agendas, let's just say. So talk about what you would like to see happen, because if you're talking about the arts as a cultural important pillar of these changes and in speaking out, what happens in these kind of consolidations?

24:37Kara Swisher:The committee for the First Amendment isn't taking sides in terms of which party that's trying to merge is better than the other. We're opposed to mergers because, A, a lot of people lose jobs. We have less bargaining power. We have fewer studios to go to to negotiate. And because Trump has taken over, I can't remember what it's called, merger control, he has say so now over who gets to merge. He is imposing limits on the First Amendment. He's saying you have to do this, you can't hire this, you can't say these things. In our major cultural and media institutions, we have to stop that.

25:22Jane Fonda:So whichever merger you think, because the traditional business model is under strain. Ticket sales are down more than 20 % since 2019. We're recording this on Monday just after SAG-AFTRA is about to again enter negotiations with the studios. There'll be issues over AI, compensation, creative control. Given the damage caused by the last strike and diminishing demand for the product, talk about the moment that Hollywood is in then. If they're going to be someone that's going to defend the First Amendment, the business is under enormous strain.

25:52Kara Swisher:There have been a lot of mergers that were including just towards the end of my marriage to Ted Turner. There was so much pressure on him to merge with AOL. and Time Warner and then all those other mergers that happened after that. You know, it's interesting because I said to Ted, why? You know, you have such a successful business. He said, because I'm paraphrasing. He said, if I don't become part of a bigger institution, I'm going to get eaten. You know, this is capitalism. You have to keep getting bigger. and it turned out very badly for Zasloff and Warner Brothers. So, you know, I am not a business person.

26:38Kara Swisher:It was Jerry Levin for that one.

26:39Jane Fonda:I wrote a whole book on it.

26:40Kara Swisher:Yeah.

26:41Jane Fonda:That was Jerry Levin.

26:43Kara Swisher:Yeah. There were a lot of people saying to do, you know, John Malone and a lot of really smart people. Michael Milken were telling him to do this and Ted didn't feel good about it. It was the wrong deal.

26:55Jane Fonda:You had the correct instincts on that one.

26:59Kara Swisher:Ted had the correct instincts.

27:01Jane Fonda:Yeah, yeah. So when you look at today, what do you say to them? Given they've got pressure from tech, they've got pressure from the audiences who are rushing towards technology faster and running away from Hollywood, and AI obviously plays an enormous part.

27:17Kara Swisher:I can't pretend to have answers to that. I don't know. I've asked a lot of people in the entertainment, business people in the entertainment industry, if Warner Brothers Studio, can it really stand on its own? And they all say, yeah, it can. And so then why not just leave that there, remaining as it is, this great historic movie factory. and maybe the smaller things go to other entities. I don't know. But the major mergers that absorb all these studios, I mean, there were so many more studios when I started out. It's bad for us. And the industry is hurting enough to then restrict even more. It's so hard right now to have a middle-class life unless you're an above-the-line A-list actor.

28:14Kara Swisher:It's sad, and I don't know what the future is. I don't think the mergers are the solution, though.

28:19Jane Fonda:No, I think they just like to merge. So you've been a mentor to women in Hollywood for decades, too. And every episode, we get an expert to send us a question. So same for you. We've got an expert who's been on the receiving end of your kindness, comedian Chelsea Handler. Let's listen. Jane Fonda took me to school one day, invited me to her house, and basically told me that my behavior had been terrible at one of her parties at her house. Like, so she like took me to town and in the most gentle, loving way. And I wrote a chapter in my book about it. And it's the story of her doing that and how that changed my life forever because she was like, your behavior was awful.

28:54Jane Fonda:And like the fact that she took the time to say that to me was huge. You know, most people would be like, just I'm not going to talk to that person again because nobody has those difficult conversations. You know what I mean? People are so avoidant, especially in Hollywood. And it was really like it made me realize the type of woman that I wanted to be. Why did you go out of your way to help Chelsea? Talk about that. You've done that quite a bit. Why are you doing this now? Everyone's like, Jane Fonda doesn't have to do any more work. She did a lot. So it's much easier to walk away.

29:22Kara Swisher:Just that philosophy, I don't relate to it at all. Like there's some point in life where you stop getting better or stop trying to get better or stop mattering. No. I love Chelsea Handler. She is an extraordinary human being. Not many people are able to say, oh, I don't like that about myself. I'm going to change and then actually do it. she has changed. She has. And she's the only other person besides me that I know that has done that because I've done that. And it can be done. And I just respect her tremendously for that. I don't do that with everybody. Just a few people. Just a few people.

30:11Jane Fonda:But what is the impetus for you in doing that? When people are looking, I often point to you when they were like, oh, I don't know if I can do anything. I'm like, look at Jane fucking Fonda. Like, look over there. Because she's... Everybody always says fucking Fonda. I don't know why. It just goes together with you. Sorry, apologies. Excuse me. No problem. It's common though. Anyway, so what is the question? It's a compliment, I believe. Thank you. When you have that impetus, when people do feel hopeless, what is your... Do you ever feel that way? And do you... What do you tell people when they feel like they don't have a say?

30:46Jane Fonda:Because being small is a good way to stop people. Making them feel small is a good way to stop people from activism or their best instincts, for example.

30:55Kara Swisher:I am part of a long line of very depressed people. And for a good part of my life, I was a glass half empty kind of gal. Okay, so it doesn't come naturally to me. But I remember there was a time when it was about 112 degrees in Los Angeles, and there were wildfires. And I stepped out and I looked at the sky. It was brown, orange, apocalyptic. I read that birds were falling dead out of the sky. I'm a birder. I was so depressed. I got a bird cheater. I got a bird bath and went to bed, and it was hard to move. And then I said, fuck it. I said, I'm going to make a difference. And I knew I wasn't doing enough.

31:38Kara Swisher:And so I called a woman who at the time was the director of Greenpeace USA, Annie Leonard. I said, I want to come to D.C. and make a difference. I want to raise a ruckus. What can I do? And together with her, we created Fire Drill Fridays. And the minute I did that, my depression lifted. And then I heard Greta Thunberg say, you know, everybody goes looking for hope, look for action. And hope will come. Hope is very different than optimism. You know, optimism is everything's going to be fine and you don't do anything about it. Hope is a muscle. Hope is when you fight. Hope can be rage-filled, breaking down the door with a battering ram.

32:25Kara Swisher:Baklop Havel was in prison in 1984, 85 by the communists in Czechoslovakia. He was the famous playwright. Yes, of course.

32:35Jane Fonda:Czech playwright. Amazing playwright, too.

32:37Kara Swisher:Yeah. And I'm paraphrasing, but in prison, he said, you know, hope is not about fighting for something because you think it's going to succeed. Hope is about fighting because it's right. And then was president of the country. You know, we never know what the future holds, but it's within that unknowing that hope can grow.

33:02Jane Fonda:I've been in that in California during one of those periods. What got you moving? Because I want to talk about this foundational work as an activist right now, the environmentalism. But what got you moving to that?

33:14Kara Swisher:Well, because I know I have a platform and I knew that I wasn't using it fully enough. and I just made the decision that I was going to do it. No matter what, I was going to step up. I'd been an activist for decades, but I knew that it wasn't enough right now. Right. And so I'm going to do it. And I just made the decision. And the minute I did that, I became hopeful and I've remained hopeful ever since. Even now, I am.

33:44Jane Fonda:We'll be back in a minute.

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34:39Jane Fonda:Over 400 superstars and legends from every era. Stack the tables, break the rules, burn it all down. And yeah, my very own showcase, telling my story the way it should have been told. Because when the show never stops, anything is possible. Available March 13th. Pre-order now. One sweet, melty bite of a Hershey's bar, and suddenly I'm right back sitting on the front porch with my grandmother on a slow summer afternoon. She doesn't say much, just breaks the bar in half and hands me a piece. I open my mouth to say whatever a nine-year-old wants to say. And she replies with a low, shh, listen. So we sat there, listening.

35:20Jane Fonda:That was the first time I learned that quiet can feel full. Hershey's, it's your happy place. So the Jane Fund, a climate pack, it's helped elect over 200 candidates. And just for people who don't know, the stated goal is to unseat politicians in the pocket of big oil and replace them with climate champions. And you talked about your down ballot strategy and the deep bench. Can I have more details about those plans for the midterms? What is the strategy from your perspective that you can talk about?

35:45Kara Swisher:We want to elect as many people as we can to the House. So my team is small, but they have a great deal of expertise, and they're looking at which are the winnable seats all around the country. And then in some instances, we just give money. In some instances, I go there. That's always interesting because we triple the amount of money they can raise. We quadruple the amount of volunteers they can get. We also train and we help in many ways besides just giving money.

36:18Jane Fonda:So when you think about that, when you give these young activists, climate activists advice, do you try to focus their pressure? Because there's the courts, the elections, the tech companies right now are building these data centers. How do you resist that, given the, you know, here you are trying to stop one climate thing with cars, and then it moves to AI data centers, and then it moves, et cetera? Right. At our last PAC board meeting, we had a presentation from experts on data centers.

36:50Kara Swisher:They can be less destructive. They can be run on alternative energy, which, of course, the Trump administration is opposing. But we decided as a board to, now we not only won't support anybody that's in favor of expanding fossil fuels, but we don't support people that are in favor of data centers or SMRs, small modular reactors. I've done quite a bit of research into these. Oh, good for you to know about that. You know, they're being touted as this is the solution to climate. they take just as long to build, which means that we go beyond the red line for climate. You know, 10 years, 20 years is too late.

37:34Kara Swisher:That's how long it takes for them to get online, even the small ones. Another really bad thing is the radioactive waste from SMRs is different chemically than from a traditional reactor. It's exotic chemicals. They can't be mixed together. So now we're talking about, we haven't even solved the problem of the traditional waste. Now we have a whole new set of radioactive waste that we have to try to figure out. Also, you know, the use of water and the amount of money it costs, which taxpayers, this is, I didn't realize it. Taxpayers end up paying the bulk of the costs of nuclear reactors, even if they never go online.

38:15Kara Swisher:Yeah.

38:16Jane Fonda:And they're also paying a lot of the data center costs and things like that. Which is interesting when you think about it.

38:22Kara Swisher:So it's SMRs, it's data centers, and it's fossil fuels. These things are critical.

38:29Jane Fonda:Yeah. Does it feel like you're still in the China syndrome? That was a million. When was that? That was like so long ago. Early 80s, maybe? Yeah. I interviewed Oliver Stone, and he said, Jane Fonda's done more damage to nuclear energy than anyone else. Good. I said, well, I guess we can't put it at her feet, but fine, whatever. Because, you know, as you know, he's for nuclear energy, as you know. What do you make of some leaders? Like Elon Musk used to be a climate change supporter, right? Meaning deal with it. He's now gone the other direction, in a direction none of us quite understand. And at the same time, he's talking about leaving Earth, going to Mars today or yesterday.

39:12Jane Fonda:He said he's building a moon city so he can get to Mars. Now, he's sort of the personification of villainous tech, essentially, wanting to get off the planet. How do you look at people like that, where that's their solution? It's like, we're not going to deal with climate change. Instead, we're just going to leave for Mars, which is not a very nice place to live, by the way. Neither is the moon.

39:31Kara Swisher:Well, I mean, I think all of them have changed because of money. I think it's based on greed. I can't think of any other reason why he's made such a switch. maybe he was always that way but he covered it up because he was getting so popular because he had a little sense of humor and he had all the electric cars and everything I don't know

39:53Jane Fonda:What would you say to someone like him or some of these tech overlords?

39:57Kara Swisher:I would try to reason with them I would try to explain that we have to have soil and diversity and wildlife and trees and plants and air and water so that human beings can continue to live here because you're never going to remove everybody from here to some other planet. How dare we consider ourselves so much more important than the other sentient things that are on this planet that we could just dismiss them and assume that a few of us will get up there somehow. You know, is this how you want to be remembered? Even that is a stupid thing to say because who's going to remember at that point?

40:37Jane Fonda:Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Right, because it's all over, unless they bring the books that they're interested in. So when people are thinking about these issues, I have two more questions. How do you keep them? You seem like a very, I know you said you had some depression and everything else, but how do you keep people hopeful? Because people feel, I do feel there's energy returned within some of the movements. You can feel it after Minnesota or, you know, even Don Lemon, of all people, really, like, went out there and did stuff, right? Like someone who was an anchor at a traditional CNN.

41:09Jane Fonda:What advice do you give to people to keep going? Because people do have a hopelessness to them, and yet you see these, as you said, these seedlings of hope. People are ready.

41:20Kara Swisher:People are saying, tell me what to do. And right now, what to do is get trained. It's called Freedom Trainers. They do Non-Cooperation 101. I've had them done both on the East and West Coast for members of the Committee for the First Amendment. Get ready. Understand authoritarianism and how it can be defeated. And learn how to be safe. Develop a community that can help each other. One of the reasons that the resistance in Minneapolis has been so robust is because they were organized. They were trained to know what to do. Who's going to be in charge of medical? Who's going to be in charge of food?

41:59Kara Swisher:They knew how to de-escalate. We all have to become like Minneapolis. And it can be done. Again, freedom trainers is one example of a, they're training people, hundreds of thousands of people all across the country.

42:14Jane Fonda:You know, one of the things, I'm wrapping up a documentary series for Shannon about longevity, and it was inspired by all these tech billionaires that want to live forever, which I think is enormously narcissistic. But there are all these, well, I'm sure you agree, right? Yes, I do. And at the same time, my feeling is that mortality gives us creativity. It gives us impetus to do things, right? It makes sense of life. That's correct.

42:40Kara Swisher:That is correct. Unless you embrace and understand and kind of are okay with death, life has no meaning.

42:47Jane Fonda:That's right. Right. And there's actually studies showing if you ignore death, you become hateful. And if you accept it, you become community-based, which is really interesting. There's all these scientific studies showing it.

42:59Kara Swisher:When I was 60, I did the smartest thing in my whole life. I realized, okay, I'm not scared of dying. I'm scared of getting to the end with a lot of regrets when it's too late to do anything about it. So that means, because I was confused, how am I supposed to live my last act? How I'm supposed to live my last act is so I'll be okay when the end comes. Obviously, none of us know when the end is going to be, but you have to make a vision of how you want. I want to die at home in my bed. I want to be surrounded by loved ones. That means between now and then I've got to be sure people love me. I have to be sure I deserve love.

43:38Kara Swisher:I'd like to be able to have a few wise things. Figure out how you want to be at the end, even if you know you don't have any control over it. And then that informs how you're going to live between now and then. And it's made all the difference in my life. I've gone into therapy at 82 years old. Never too late to figure it out.

44:01Jane Fonda:Did you find anything really good out? Yeah, but it takes too long on this. I'm teasing you. I'm teasing you. But when you think about that idea of living your best life, right, and you show no signs of slowing down, do you have, I know it sounds crazy, but a secret? I'm not talking about your skin regimen, which your skin is excellent, by the way. But when you think about what the kind of things you can put into it. Now, when you were doing your career when you were in the 30s, you took a great risk and turned out to be right. But at the time, you got attacked relentlessly, right? What you're doing now, you're certainly getting more celebrated for.

44:39Jane Fonda:Obviously, your activism is more celebrated. But I think one of the things, the reasons I want to talk to you is because I want people to feel they don't have to be Jane Fonda to do this, right? You don't have to have – you don't have to be you, essentially. So do you have a secret or anything else or not just getting up or –

44:57Kara Swisher:I meditate, and I meditate to keep myself hopeful, to keep myself grounded, and to keep myself present. Also, sometimes when I'm meditating, problems arise and get solved. So interesting. And I've started on Substack recently, and I just began, and people loved it. I took them on a meditation with me, and the reaction was so positive, but I'm going to do it every time. So that's one thing. Another thing is sleep. Getting enough sleep so that I have energy, because I get very depressed if I don't get enough sleep. Then maybe as important or more, don't be alone. You're vulnerable when you're alone.

45:43Kara Swisher:You're vulnerable to depression. You're also vulnerable to danger, to ice, to all kinds of things, to being not impactful. You know, all of us, those of us who are alive right now are blessed because we have the chance to turn everything around. I feel so lucky to be born right now. And in order to do it right, I got to do it with other people and make sure that what we're doing is the right thing to do, that it's not just frivolous or it doesn't really make any difference. and what got me to be smart was pulling on smart people to help me, to guide me. And I now have a team around me that is very experienced and totally strategic and very connected to the entire ecosystem of movement across the country.

46:37Kara Swisher:So, you know, okay, so not everybody can do that necessarily, but you can join a local indivisible. You can organize your neighborhood. These local pods of people who will help each other when not only the authoritarianism shit hits the fan, but when the climate shit, we have to harden our communities and make them resilient in all kinds of ways, including security. And you can't do that alone. Get to know your neighbors. Know their phone numbers and emails. Talk about who's going to do what if this happens or that happens. And being in the training helps you think in those kind of ways. Right, absolutely.

47:16Kara Swisher:Know things like if you risk going into an area where there's tear gas, take out your contacts. You know, buy a whistle. Good to know. Thank you for that piece of advice, Jane Fonda.

47:27Jane Fonda:So one of the things, when you did your original activism during Vietnam, obviously Nixon was your foe, right, on the larger scheme of things.

47:37Kara Swisher:Yeah.

47:38Jane Fonda:Today it's Trump. What would you say to him right now? Do you think you can change his mind?

47:45Kara Swisher:Here's what I—I couldn't. I tried. I wanted to. I know him. I've met him. He used to really like and admire Ted, my ex-husband, Ted Turner. And I feel because I spent a decade with Ted Turner, I understand Trump a little bit because they have certain things in common, early trauma at the hands of the father, etc. And in my mind, sometimes when I lie in bed, I have conversations with him. And I want to say to him, you know, I feel like I understand something. Because I lived with Ted Turner for 10 years. You have things in common. Do you understand what's happening? You know, I would try to touch his heart.

48:35Kara Swisher:there was one when he first got elected in 2017 I wanted to go and meet with him with a bunch of really brilliant sexy women and kneel at his feet and because I thought well this would work with Ted and tell him he could be a global hero if he saved the planet and Pamela Anderson was willing to go with me and then Ivanka and Jared it didn't happen it was a no help getting there. It's important to understand what he does and what he says, the behavior, is the language of the traumatized. And you have to see through it. You can hate the behavior, but you have to see through it to the traumatized person and not hate them.

49:26Because if you hate them, then it brings you down.

49:31Kara Swisher:I don't hate him. I don't. Joy Bayar got really mad at me on The View when I said that. But I feel better. I view all these guys and Musk and the others. They're just, they're not well. It's the not wellness that we see acted out. I'm so sorry that this happened to them in their lives. And I would try to touch that early Trump. But I don't think I'd succeed.

50:05Jane Fonda:Yeah. If you could get to it. I don't think you can at some point. There is one point. I said one time to one of these tech moguls, I'm so sorry your parents didn't hug you enough as a child, but you need to stop. And they looked at me and I go, I gotcha. But you need to stop. They're dead. Yeah.

50:23Kara Swisher:Like you need to move on. There's a statute of limitations. Yes.

50:26Jane Fonda:Get some help.

50:27Kara Swisher:And now move. See, this is what happened with Ted Turner. There was a point in his life where he intentionally moved towards the light, moved to the side of the angel. He decided, and he changed himself. God bless him. God bless him.

50:45Jane Fonda:Anyway, Jane Fonda, thank you so much.

50:47Kara Swisher:Thank you very much.

50:52Jane Fonda:Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you deserve love. If not, go meditate on why you haven't subscribed. Go over your list of podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

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