Kamala’s Presidential Run, CrowdStrike’s Meltdown, and Guest Lydia Polgreen

23:17But I think it's a very, very different thing to distinguish yourself on a stage with a bunch of other Democrats. And I think there are reasons of gender and race that make it actually quite hard to do that. You know, it's worth remembering that the only Democrat to the only female presidential candidate ever to emerge came out of, you know, more of a coronation than a truly competitive primary process. And that's Hillary Clinton, who was essentially tapped on the shoulder by Barack Obama. So I do think that there are very particular challenges for women in the context of a primary. And I think the office of vice president, it's very hard to distinguish yourself.

23:52She got a thankless portfolio and working on things that are very, very hard to solve. Now, I think she's done as good a job as any sort of great job. She's done a great job on abortion. I think that she's got a good message on law and order, which, you know, it was her very bad luck to be running the one cycle that being a former prosecutor was a bad rather than a good thing. I mean, she is, I would say, a pretty generic, you know, relatively moderate Democrat. I mean, you don't get to be a successful black politician of her age without being fairly moderate. And the, you know, cop and I'm doing air quotes, the cop route is how many black women came into political power and they had to be tough on crime.

24:37They had to be. And so I think she's been beaten up much more from the left than from the right. That is absolutely true. So what would you if you say her greatest strength and weakness right now is I think people are excited. There's a jolt of energy. You can feel it. Obviously, the fundraising people are reconsidering her, I think. And, you know, I was noting to Scott before, like, she's very popular on TikTok, which is smart for her versus a Twitter where they attack her relentlessly. Who cares? Because, you know, that's now, you know, a Nazi porn bar. But but she's very and they're even taking the coconut thing, which seemed kind of wacky and making fun with it.

25:12Like she seems more fun, I guess. Talk about the from your perspective, her biggest strength right now. And you mentioned the word coronation. Scott has used it just before this. Is that her biggest weakness is that it feels like a coronation or give me a strength and a weakness? Yeah, I mean, I think I think her strength is definitely that she can lean into what is already her strength. Right. I mean, which is this persona as a prosecutor, as a, you know, as a person who can take on a very specific, you know, almost crusading task. And I think that is that is a tremendous strength for her that there is she's she's running against a very particular opponent.

25:49She's not running against a generic person. And I would argue that Donald Trump is, in fact, a very, very weak candidate. He's a person who's never won the popular vote. His policies are not popular. There's just lots and lots of things that I think make him a weak candidate. I think that her greatest weakness is that, and this is the place where I think she really fell down in the 2020 primary, is that she has not done a good job of articulating or showing what her vision is for the country. That is not just, I'm going to defeat Donald Trump. And I think that that's necessary. I think you have to articulate a vision.

26:22Now, it could be as simple as, you know, I am actually going to be a bridge. You know, we need to turn the page on this era of American history, and I'm going to help get us to where we're going. I don't think it necessarily needs to be much, much more than that. But I think there has to be a rationale for her candidacy beyond the I'm the most skilled person in the right place to to take on this particular candidate. It's got to be more than that. So the Trump campaign is obviously going to attack her, including mispronouncing her name. I think she's ready for that. I think she's as tough as nails in that regard.

26:54Obviously, Elon is already having a meltdown. He tweeted, I'd just like to thank Alexander Soros for keeping everyone in suspense about who the next puppet would be. Speaking of puppets, Elon, you know a lot about that. Everything he writes is about himself. He was also mocking her for introducing herself with her pronouns, which she does these. Fine. She's from San Francisco. She does that. Big deal. Where do you think the big line of attack is? Because this weekend in your piece, you wrote, if Kamala Harris is a DEI candidate, so is J.D. Vance. So talk a little bit about the attacks. Yeah, I mean, I think people are going to try and argue that she only got into her positions of power because of, you know, because of race.

27:33And I think that that's something that will happen. I think race is going to be very touchy for the Republicans to deal with. You know, I think that that Americans might, you know, be skeptical about the talents and abilities of black people. But I think there's also a discomfort with just kind of out and out racism. And so I think that they're going to have to be really careful and it'll be harder to attack her in the way that they attacked Hillary Clinton, you know, on gender because of the combination of these things. I don't think that anyone should assume that her being black helps her with black voters or particularly helps her with black men.

28:08In fact, I think that it could hurt her. I think there's a strong strain of anti-Black woman misogyny among younger Black men that I think should not be ignored and is a serious thing to think about, an issue that she's going to have to confront. You know, look, I don't think that this is going to be a cakewalk by any stretch of the imagination. This is going to be a hard race. It was going to be a close race no matter what. I think she's got a fighting chance. I think she's got some real talents, but I think she's got some real challenges, too. Lady, who would you like to see as the VP pick? You know, I have a, I think, you know, all of the jokes and memes on Twitter have been, you know, sort of from the wine store, interesting whites or generic whites.

28:52And, you know, it seems like the conventional wisdom is that there's going to be a kind of generic white man from a swing state. And I think that a lot of this is probably going to come down to who's compatible and who brings the most to the table in terms of, quote unquote, diversifying the ticket. Right. And remember, diversity is a convention. Well, we do. And people think diversity is just about race, but diversity is about geography. Diversity is about religious belief. I mean, every single vice presidential choice is a diversity pick. Right. I mean, it's a two person ticket. You know, one person can only represent so much.

29:31And so, you know, I think that's obviously – Except for J.D. Vance. Well, J.D. Vance is a diversity pick. He's an age diversity, class diversity, right? I mean, I think these are – you know, I agree that there's ideological alignment, and it was definitely a pick that betrayed a kind of, you know, I think misplaced confidence that Trump was going to walk to victory. But he certainly does represent diversity in some very important ways for Trump, just in the same way that Mike Pence did. So who do I think should get the nod? I actually don't think it makes that much of a difference. I think that the range of options are probably, you know, Josh Shapiro, you know, Andy Beshear, Roy Cooper, all the names that you've been hearing.

30:14I think that there are pluses and minuses to all of them. You know, but I think I think that that that someone in that in that vein is probably who we're going to end up. Who do you think, Scott? Go tell her, Scott. Tell her. See how she reacts. Well, I would like it to be Governor Shapiro. I think if we were totally focused on winning, they would nominate, they would pick Mitt Romney. Kara had the same reaction. Well, I mean, listen, I thought if Donald Trump was really focused on winning, he would have picked Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley, of course. Because I think he would have been unstoppable if he had.

30:51And so I understand your theory. Some people have bounced around the idea of Joe Manchin as a running mate. I know, he's unlikable. I know, he's unlikable. I mean, is Mitt Romney that likable? Let's just remember, he lost his presidential race. And that's the other last thing that I would say about Kamala Harris. I mean, think about how many people who've won their primaries who've lost the presidential race. Winning a primary is by no means an assurance of victory. Lydia, no one's ever won president without competing competently in a primary, which she hasn't done. I wouldn't say that's true.

31:25Would you say that Joe Biden competed competently in a primary? I think he was carried across the finish line by Jim Clyburn. Oh, but he competed. Oh, no, he won that race. After Democratic elites all came together to engineer an outcome? She got you. No, I mean, this happens all the time. I think there's a difference. Did Hillary? I mean, I guess, like, I'm just dumb. She was on the debate stage with a bunch of Democrats. Matson. So there should be a debate. We think it's her and Dean Phillips and Joe Manchin. That's because the others have have have bowed out. The congressional, by the way, the Congressional Black Caucus has endorsed Harris.

32:07Can I ask you, you did. Let me read a tweet from comedian and podcaster Akilah Hughes. So now it's Kamala. I think, again, every white person who wanted him to drop out needs to figure out how to defend a black woman in person and online for the first time in their lives. that's the job now. I'd like to see it, but I never have. But can you talk about that skepticism for white people to do that? And also skepticism, as you said, from men? How, because I think women are the, black women are the real driver of voting from, as I recall, in almost many, many elections. And in this case, there was, I think it was, Anil Dash was saying the anti-Desi network is now in overdrive.

32:46Kamala Harris is also, her mom is Indian. Can you talk a little bit about that? How do you thread that very difficult racial needle in this country? I think this is going to be one of the big challenges. But I also think that people make assumptions about other people's racism that may have to do with their own beliefs. If you think other people are racist, maybe it's worth looking at what your own beliefs are about race and about people's competence. Same, I would say, about sexism. You know, I think that this is a country that has a capacity to surprise people. I would also say that, again, Donald Trump is a particularly weak candidate who is particularly ill-suited to attacking this particular opponent on matters of race and on matters of gender.

33:39You know, I mean, this is a person, she has prosecuted, you know, sex offenders and rapists and people who've committed sexual assault. You know, we have many photos of Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, he has been found legally liable for sexual assault. Prosecutor versus felon. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not I don't have any illusions, guys. I mean, I'm making the case here in a way that that I think is is is is absolutely defensible. But I also know that all historical events are contingent. And, you know, there is a very real possibility that Kamala Harris becomes the nominee and that she loses.

34:15That would be extremely unfortunate for the country. It is possible. It feels less likely to me than Joe Biden winning the campaign. And that seems to be where we are now. Yeah, absolutely. And she'll bring back the donors, which we'll be talking about also. Donors love Kamala Harris. Donors love Kamala Harris. That's what I was telling him. I was like, she's no lefty. They love her. She is not a lefty. She shows up at their parties. I've seen her there because I've been there. And they love Kamala Harris. She also, she enjoys it too. She enjoys that whole set. Yeah. So anyway. Anyway, Lydia, thank you.

34:48That was really, when you wrote it, as you know, I wrote you, I was like, well done. Because everyone was going in a different direction than that. And I thought you did. You made a good case for it. And I was like. I'm hanging up my spurs. No more. Hang up your spurs. Good job. Excellent job. Well, that's, you did a good job on your first outing. And I appreciate it. All I ever want is to stun Scott Galloway into silence. The two of us beating up on him, it's like, you know. It happens all the time. I know. The masochist in you likes being beaten up by powerful women. I know it. Mitt Romney! Can we do it again together?

35:23Say Mitt Romney, Scott. What do you guys say? I think it should be Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney! You idiot! Scott, you ignorant slut. You're the personification of the comments in every social media platform I'm on. Basically, it's like different dimensions of, Jesus, you're a fucking idiot. Yeah, yeah. Well, we're not saying idiot. That's a little far. We're just mocking you. Definitely not. Mocking you. Definitely not. Anyway, thank you, Lydia. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Take care, guys. Take care, Lydia. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back, a look at the fallout from the massive crowd strike outage.

36:02The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. From improving emergency response times to protecting against cyber attacks, local, state, and federal governments are innovating with Google AI. This is a new era of American innovation. Find out more at g.co slash American Innovation. There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, are late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks.

36:47If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes, But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now. That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

37:23Scott, we're back. The world is still crawling its way back to normal operations after a CrowdStrike update caused 8.5 million devices to crash on Friday. The cybersecurity firm's software update wiped out devices using Microsoft Windows operating systems, impacting airlines, healthcare facilities, emergency services, retail locations, and millions of PCs. Still on Monday, over 700 flights have been canceled by 7.30 a.m. At the time of this taping, CrowdStrike stock is down more than 30 percent in the last five days. Talk a little bit about your perspective on this. Well, it's interesting. We had Y2K.

37:57We just had it in 2024. This was exactly what they were predicting would happen on the turn of New Year's in 2000. I think the larger learning here is the following, and that is I love the idea of what is a robust versus an anti-fragile industry. And that is if McDonald's goes out of business, the fast food industry or ability to get fast food doesn't miss a beat. There's Panera, there's Chipotle, there's five guys, In-N-Out Burger, best of them all. But it's fine. If Jamie Dimon called Powell or Janet Yellen and said, look, I had some rogue trader in Singapore and we accidentally missed a compliance.

38:37They levered up a million times and unless you give me a$100 billion credit line, I'm out of business. They have to say, yes, we'll send the money because if JP Morgan goes under, it might take the global economy with it. So I would argue the banking system is not robust, and that's one of the reasons they have such tight or increased stress testing, because they recognize that it's not a robust industry. What this reflects is that technology, because of consolidation and concentration, is not robust. And if one essentially cybersecurity firm can take down an airline in the economy for a day, that means it's too concentrated.

39:13So I think what this reflects is yet another example. I mean, it'll be really interesting how much this comes up in the FTC or DOJ review of Alphabet's pending acquisition or proposed potential acquisition of WIS. Because if, you know, I mean, it's interesting. Southwest flights were fine because they hadn't updated their software to the latest operating system. Right, right. Yeah. And also Apple was fine, obviously. Yeah. So I think it's just another indication that we need more antitrust. It's just too concentrated. So costs could, for this outage, could top$1 billion, according to Anderson Economic Group, which specializes in economic costs and business interruption.

39:53Many companies plan to file insurance claims to cover the cost, and Microsoft has released a recovery tool. But here we are relying on limited tech companies. You were talking a little bit about the antitrust thing. It's that how do you solve the problem? Because you do need a commonality of some of these systems. Now, of course, everyone was like, is this really a secret attack? You know, that was raised. Is it China flexing whatever it shoved into our systems during solar winds? But, you know, it's here we are getting apart, whether it's being attacked by other countries in various hacks or relying on limited companies.

40:32We really are, you know, we are kind of stuck in that regard that everything is knitted together in this way. And they don't care enough about security, I guess, on that level. Well, 298 of the Fortune 500 companies used CrowdStrike. And this is, I don't know, it just brings home for me, it's just a concentration of power that is, you need diversity in the ecosystem. And this is an example of it. And what happens, I mean, this is sort of a preview. It could be much worse than this. What if all of a sudden every hospital network goes down or power generators? I mean, this was, we got off pretty easy here.

41:11This was flights being canceled. So, again, you know me, I'm the same. I'm the breakup person. I just think there's too few companies that have too much critical infrastructure. But then how do you do that if you want to knit together a system? See, the fact, you know, this, of course, is the discussions around every sci-fi movie. There's one system, you know, remember the Sandra Bullock one when everyone was using that one thing and the little sign showed up and then it stole everyone's information. It's really difficult not to have a singular system or one that's knitted together well. But what you're making the argument for is that the scale and common standards are really important.

41:53And I get that. Now, the name of that type of firm that you grant the capacity to do is a utility. And utilities are highly regulated. So, if you make the argument that it makes sense to have one cybersecurity firm and operating system running 400 of the 500 biggest hospital systems in America, then you are going to need to have pretty serious government oversight and a lot of stress testing and scenario planning that what happens when X, Y, or Z takes place. because these companies aren't, I mean, granted, there's an economic incentive in not letting this shit happen, but you mentioned that CrowdStrike stock is down 14%, but it's still up 24 % year to date.

42:31So this is the bottom line. The market is telling us, and this is the scary thing here, Cara, is that a potential catastrophe like this that literally ruins millions of people's vacation plans for the weekend or summer vacation plans, that is worth it because the concentration of power that sends your stock up 24%, maybe you have to give half of it back, but you're still up. The concentration of power, without the very expensive stress testing and go slow mentality that you would have in utility, it's worth it to take the risks. And that is not a good risk complexion for corporate America. Yeah.

43:06So you think the stock will recover? 100%. They're working with 300 of the 500 Fortune 500, and it might be an opportunity for someone to come in, but the market has already said, okay, the stock's up 24%. It gave back half its gains for the year. It's not like the thing has crashed. Right, right, right. That's true. Well, we'll see with the lawsuits and anything else that can happen or the insurance claims and things like that. But again, you're right. It requires it to become a utility, which is something you and I have both argued many times. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

43:48Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Do you want me to go first? You go first, Cara. Okay, I love, one of the things that I like about news events is how the internet reacts, the special social, this is the part I like about social media, besides looking at cooking and Japanese woodworking videos that I look at to please myself. But there's a lot of really good ones that were on immediately, and it's highly entertaining. I loved everything The Daily Show does. And on threads, they were going crazy. But of course, they had a picture. Remember when they won the election and there was a picture of Kamala jogging, looking very fit?

44:22She's on the phone. She was talking to Biden at the time. And it had, hello, is this the Midwest white guy emporium? Which I think was cute. I thought Hunter Walk did a great one on threads. Lights must be flickering in Brooklyn from equipment power search for all the emergency pods, which is so true. and I really enjoyed a back and forth between Mark Zuckerberg and he Mark Zuckerberg on threads put up serene row before a big week and then Casey Newton wrote back Mark you will not believe what happened while you were rowing and Mark's like best to check my check the news before I thread and then what I really liked is Elon Musk is really truly losing his mind over on on X and two of them that I thought were very funny.

45:06He said, my smartest friends, including those living in San Francisco Bay Area, have been lifelong Dems are excited about Trump dance. And Jan Lacoon, who's head of AI at Facebook, wrote, and he's been trolling Musk relentlessly, your smartest friends aren't very smart, which I really liked. And then I think my single favorite one was from was was one on X where Jordan Schneider, he's I don't know who he is. He wrote, what a classic VC move to buy Trump at the peak, which I thought was really funny. And then one more, one more. Reductress wrote, the nation with increasingly limited access to birth control, thanks man for pulling out.

45:46And then the last meme, actually I'll do one more last meme. There's one picture of Kamala Harris coming out from behind a blue curtain with a thing. And it said, did somebody say black job? That's funny. Anyway, those are all my things. The fail is a similar thing is I don't know why finance reporters are not writing about this, but Bill Ackman is sharing a lot of conspiracy theories this week. Really crazy ones, including one that Joe Biden did not make did not make this decision and that his signature wasn't actually his. He said if this were hostage situation, that letter would not qualify as proof of life.

46:22He also had this whole like these videos show that there were two shooters in the Trump shooting. Yeah, he deleted that. I know. What is the fucking why don't look why don't they hold him accountable for this stuff? You know, he just gets to do this stuff. What this is he's like I find him irritating on every level on the DEI stuff and his thoughts on Ukraine and everything else, which he's manifestly unqualified to do. But now he's moved way down the stack to stuff that he should not be. And he's raising money for this this new investment fund. I would worry about this guy very, very much so because he literally spends all his time now trafficking really conspiracy theories.

47:03I don't know what else to say. Really weird ones, too. Anyway. All right. So my win is going to be, you know, the millionth pile on of people recognizing the tenure and presidency of President Biden. I think economically, you know, created more jobs in three and a half years than have been created in any eight-year, 10-year, brought inflation down to the lowest level of any advanced economy while maintaining growth, markets touching all-time highs, legislatively one of the most productive sessions. I think he's been very strong on Ukraine. I think he's been, I don't think he gets nearly the credit he deserves because he has been a little bit, unfortunately, wishy-washy on the communications, trying to placate the far left while on the ground.

47:51He immediately deployed two carrier strike forces to the Mediterranean in solidarity with our ally Israel. I think he's been a decent man. I think he's been really good on LGBTQ. He's been very, if not effective, but forceful around bodily autonomy. I think he set a good tone of decency. You know, he will be remembered as, and not only that, I think this was probably an incredibly difficult decision for him and his family. And I think, you know, did he probably take too long to make that decision? Yes, but people will remember him for the decision that he made for the country. and you know life i think president biden is going to go down as one of the great presidents and i think that it's going to give him him and his family tremendous comfort to know that he had an outstanding presidency so i think he should go nuts now just like do whatever he feels like just go off you know what i have executive order everybody wears pants like i I don't know.

48:53I would pardon Hunter. I would just be like, you know, well, that would hurt her. That would hurt her if he did something or something. I don't know for anything he's going to do, too. You know, I think he he could do a lot of stuff now. He's sort of free. Right. He's kind of free to do what he wants. The other thing is he can make some money. You know what I mean? Like he deserves it. He's been a lifelong public servant. I know everyone thinks he's corrupt Joe Biden, but honestly, it doesn't look like he has that much of a lifestyle. and I certainly, the Obamas have cashed in, that's for sure.

49:26I think that he, I have to tell you when you're talking about this, you're right, he took too long to do it, but to give up the presidency, just think about that. Think about that. Wow. After he spent his whole life trying to get there. Absolutely. Yeah, and not only that, I think, look, I think we're all thinking if Biden can quit his job, maybe I should quit mine. You know, it's - Oh, no. Are you doing that again? No, no, no. I'm fine. It's August. You'll be going on vacation for a little while soon. It's close to August. Yeah, it's very sad, though. Parks and Recreation star Joe Biden has announced he will no longer be running for president.

50:07It's like he's broken up with all of us. He left a post-it that said, sorry, I can't. Don't hate me.

50:15But also, just so you know, young people, you should never quit your job on a Sunday. That's just batshit crazy. That is crazy. All right. What do you think is your fail? I don't have a fail. I'm feeling I'm starting to recover from the shock and weird feeling of Sunday. And I'm trying to just feel better and better about American Democrats and be hopeful. I'm going to rally. I want to be one of these people that whose actions sort of foot to all the bullshit that comes spectrating out of their mouth all day. I'm going to try and get involved in the campaign ultimately, which looks like it's going to be Harris.

50:49So it unlocked it for you because you were like pulling back, right? It unlocked the idea of giving money. Oh, no, no, no. You said you were a part of that letter. No, now that I will donate, I will try and, and this would be impossible, but I'm going to hold myself to allocating or footing my time, treasure, and talent to all the constant yammering I do about this shit. It's time for all of us to either canvas, start talking to people, even on social media, be supportive, break out your wallet, whatever you can give, give. You're a dolphin, right? I'm a dolphin, yeah. I'm not a whale. But I'm already talking to people about trying to do a fundraiser and doing fun matching programs.

51:34I'm going to go do some canvassing in one of the swing states. Maybe even do, I'm talking to someone about, anyways, I'm excited about this. And I want to, look, you want to look back on this regardless of what happens. If you do believe that, I hate that, I don't like them positioning Donald Trump as the end of America. I think it might be, I would argue, a serious degradation in our democracy. I don't think it's going to be the end of America, and I don't think that's useful. But if you do think this is an existential threat and an important election, you should make plans for the next, have a war plan for the next 10 or 11 weeks.

52:07I sat down with my boys, and they were kind of like, what are we doing? I'm like, I want to plan out the next kind of 11 weeks as to how we can be effective here. But I think everyone, if they're really serious about it, it's, you know, just posting shit on Twitter isn't enough. Like, get involved. I think LFG is what you're talking about, right? Let's fucking go. There you go. Yeah, that's right. Let's get on it. Let's get on it. That's what I said. I had someone who was like, you know, also like, oh, I was like, you know, that's fucking enough. That's enough. Look, you got a chance now. You got a shot.

52:35And this is the oxygen we have. And let's stop saying what's wrong with her. Let's say what's right with her. Like, let's not even like, sure, there's plenty. Like Lydia said, there's plenty wrong with her. I don't think I've ever seen a candidate that is more superior than her opponent. Yep, absolutely. I'm excited for the debate. Do you think there's going to be a debate? He's not going to do a debate. No way. That's an interesting question. There's no way he's getting on stage with her. First of all, he doesn't like women. I think he's too arrogant to refuse. He doesn't like black women. You think he won't get on stage with her?

53:03Oh, I don't think he can. He'll talk about cognitive decline. He will. It will be the same thing. He can't help. If you think Hillary Clinton drove him crazy, remember he called that nasty woman? Oh, man. He can't do that, and he can't help himself. Look what happened at the speech where everyone was hugging him. He fucked that up. Yeah, I'll take the other side of that because what you just said, I think it's true. I don't think he can help himself. The smart thing might be to not debate. I don't think he's going to be able to resist. And when people start calling him a chicken and insulting his manhood, it's just going to be, he's going to be like, oh, I'll show her.

53:36Yeah, we'll see. I think he's going to be really bothered by her quite a bit. It's going to set him off in ways that he doesn't even understand about himself. Anyway, we'll see, which is a good thing. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, we'll be back on Friday with more. As always, Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Larry Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mils Averio.

54:07Nishat Kaurua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Let's get on it.

54:31Thank you.