Kash Patel Sues, Trump's Psychedelics Push, and Netflix’s Podcast Bet

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25:03Scott, we're back with more news. Trump signed an executive order, fast-tracking FDA review of psychedelic drugs like psilocybin, and I think it's Ibogaine, for mental health treatment, all thanks to a text from Joe Rogan. Rogan texted Trump about Ibogaine research in reducing opioid addiction. And the president immediately replied, sounds great. Do you want FDA approval? Let's do it. The order directs the FDA to an expedite review of the breakthrough therapy and encourage data sharing between the health and veterans affairs department. You know, honestly, look, Rogan's been turning on Trump and this was a gimme to Jill Rogan.

25:39As you know, I talk about use of psychedelics in this series. It's very promising, but certainly shouldn't be expedited because some podcaster who has very not the best information because they need to do the safety checks if these things are going to be good for people. But if, I mean, what would you text Trump for? What would you like if you could talk? But this is how it's done in this country. He texts him. He wants him back. It's the most thirsty and thirsty way to get Rogan's approval. And Rogan is dumb enough to take it and then shift on these things that he cared about, allegedly war and the Epstein thing.

26:19So the whole thing is just demented. I thought this was the most demented thing, given how important this psychedelic research should be taken throughout this country. Your thoughts? Well, Ibogaine is, there's real potential here. A Stanford study found a single ibogaine dose reduced veterans disability ratings from 30.2 to 5.1 with effects sustained at least a month out. Almost 9 in 10 participants experienced a reduction in PTSD symptoms. 9 in 10 decrease in depression. 8 in 10 reducing anxiety. So this has real potential. This is a great move, but here's the problem. This isn't how you do things.

27:00They've been running this for a year. They could have done this a year ago, but go ahead. Well, okay, so I'm a big believer in prison reform. I think we're the most incarcerated nation in the world, and I think that a hugely accretive move would be early prison release and a review of people who are currently incarcerated. incarcerated. And when the Trump administration decides that it would be great to have the Kardashian on boards and she takes this on as an issue, they then get a pardon. He does these things, but he does them for political reasons and they're not systemic in nature. And when it comes to taking something from a class two or a class one drug, I want someone who has domain expertise.

27:40I want double blind tests. I think, again, another thing we have taken for granted here is the good people at the CDC, our FDA, double-blind studies, doctors with actual credentials. I mean, they do a really good job. It's been a huge benefit to us economically. The drugs you take are, you know, they do mistakes, but you can feel fairly certain that if you take something that's FDA approved, it's approved for a good reason. It's also too slow. It's absolutely too slow on these therapies, but they're still early. And the fact that this very not smart podcaster, who's very lovely in some ways and nutty in some ways, but doesn't operate in a factual environment all the time, is getting to get this because he was mean to Trump and was turning on him.

28:30And then for the next couple of months, he'll be nice to Trump, right? The whole thing is just grotesque. This is not how we need to. This isn't how you run health policy. This is not health policy. That's correct. It's not legal policy. It's purely political. And for Rogan to get used like this on an important issue, maybe if it's important to him, he should demand that Trump, not just because he can go to the Oval Office and hug Trump, but it's just, oh, God. It could hurt veterans if it's not done correctly. The whole, oh, yeah, yeah. Just, by the way, it's also going to take forever. So let's do this.

29:06Let's play the game. Let's be increasingly mean and grow our platform 10x. And then what is the one thing you want from Trump? What is the one policy you would want from Trump? $25 minimum wage. Oh, I love that. Universal health care. I love that. Child care, universal child care, all those things. Any of those. Check, check, check. Mm-hmm. What about you? Love it. Besides, like a missile.

29:32I would want mandatory national service. Oh, I like that. distribution of GLP-1 to any household with less than$50 ,000 in household income. With good medical stuff attached to it, nutritional. That's right. And incremental, like you said, single-payer health coverage. And, oh gosh, I could go on and lower the estate tax exemption to$1 million. There's going to be$72 trillion in wealth passed on. We're not a dynastic population. We're a meritocratic population, and we need to tax inherited wealth. Anyways, I got about another 15. Okay. Well, there we go. We don't have his name. Actually, I could probably get Trump's cell phone number if you want.

30:20Let's get on it. Let's be a pain in his side. No, I'm serious. Why don't we do an experiment? Say, this is Scott Galloway. I would like you to do an executive order on young men or whatever the fuck you want. I'm going to get his cell phone. You're going to text him, okay? You're doing it. I think it's getting the wiring information of someone in his family and sending a few million dollars. I'm serious. I think there's a direct pipeline. I've heard from credible resources around specific things around pardons and trying to get funding for certain things. There's an entire infrastructure, consultants who launder the money, get it to the Trump administration, and you get shit passed.

30:57And to be clear, what they would say is this has always been going on. We're just more, we're less, we're more transparent about it. No, not like this. I'm going to get his number. You're going to text him, okay? That's what we're doing this week. Well, I was invited to the UFC fight at the White House. You need to go. You need to go. You need to say yes. I can't go. I just can't do that. You need to sidle up to him and like pet him. I don't like watching young men beat each other up. I don't look at that part. Just go pet Trump. That's what you need to do and get universal health care for everybody.

31:24You need to do it. You need to go in there. They're not inviting me, even though. Did you hear about this study, the influencers? Say more. Oh, it's really interesting. So there's a poll that Ipsos did about influencers, essentially. And I am the most purple. First of all, I'm in the top influencers, which is weird. I'm up there with Candace Owen and Tucker Carlson and all mannered people. But I'm the most purple. You're the most centrist? Yes. Purple means centrist. Well, I don't think the word is, I think it's independent. Like, I don't know because they don't all agree, right? But in terms of impact, I'm shocked that I was even in these lists.

32:01but independents love for a Swiss shirt. It's weird. It's so weird, but it's good. That's very exciting. Which means I should be at the UFC fight because I'd actually enjoy it, but you need to go. You're an influencer. We got to take you to Coachella and just have you take pictures and not enjoy the music. I'm surprised you didn't go to Coachella, but listen, this is what you have to do. You have to take one for the team or you also have to text Trump because he's not taking my texts, even though I am the person who represents the independents, apparently, which is ridiculous because I'm really liberal.

32:31Who's the most purple, most key influence? Yeah, but I'm really liberal, which is kind of funny. All right. The NSA is using Anthropics mythos. Even after the Department of Defense called the company a supply chain risk, Anthropics CEO Dario Amodi met with the White House officials on Friday to work towards a compromise to bring the company's technology back to government use. Both sides described the meeting as productive. However, when President Trump was asked about Amodi's visit, he said he had no idea about the meeting. He was meeting with Susie Wiles. If a compromise is reached, it would likely exclude the Pentagon because Hegseth is a moron and so is Emil Michael who works for him.

33:05So, again, it's like everyone I have talked to in the other departments think the Hegseth thing is insane and that they want to use it because it's a better model. So, the NSA wants to use it and everything else. And it's just kind of ridiculous that a Modi has to go hat in hand to deal with these children. And by the way, over at OpenAI, more kind of problems. The company lost three executives on Friday, the leader of the defunct Sora, the VP of OpenAI for Science, who we used to work for Twitter, Kevin Weil, and the company's CTO for B2B applications. So they're losing. There's a lot of, it's more dramatic than Google back in the day or Twitter.

33:47It just, it's really quite a dramatic little company. So any thoughts on Anthropic or OpenAI? Well, you know, history or the world hates a vacuum. And one of the biggest vacuums or voids right now that's creating chaos is the vacuum around regulation and guardrails around AI. And when Dario Amode, who is supposed to be head of a private company, charged with just using every tool in his toolkit possible to create leverage and margin for shareholders, gets so worried about something that he pulls it back. And I'm not, you know, and says he's only going to give it to J.P. Morgan and Apple, you know, the good guys.

34:23And you'd like to think he's sincere about it and he's generally concerned. But he shouldn't be making those calls. If we're trusting or hoping that the U.S. and existential threats are going to be dependent upon the kindness and wisdom of CEOs, we are fucked. Because these people have so many incentives and pressure to just deliver against shareholder value. I agree. It's a low bar. I was with some people and they're like, Amodi's good. but I'm like, it's a low fucking bar. And I still don't want him to decide. But in the one of millions of text chains I get copied on in between you and Rahm, I was going to suggest to Rahm and any other Democratic presidential candidate, I was actually going to, for some reason, I think John Ossoff is, and you wrote about this, is giving off real presidential energy right now.

35:05But I think the opportunity among a Democratic candidate right now, quite frankly, is to have a very thoughtful, get some academics together, and have a very thoughtful 10-page or less summarized in a one or two page cover summary is regulation for AI. Do you realize no one's even proposing what it would mean? What does it look like? How do you regulate it? Is it about security? Is it about privacy? Is it about how do you thread the needle between regulation and also letting our thoroughbreds run such that China does not get out ahead of us, which is a legitimate a concern. Who running for president, i.e., you know, everyone, has put out anything thoughtful that is said, I mean, Senator Warner has put out something with Senator Hawley about retraining and trying to support job destruction, but no one has really put out a thoughtful, you know, three, five, 12-point plan on this is what we should implement immediately and by executive order that lets the economic growth run mostly.

36:07It'll cost some economic growth, but gives people some level of certainty that the government has some feel around the risks here and outlines them. But there's nothing right now. It's just the Wild West. And that vacuum is being filled by a bunch of arguments, virtue signaling, false signals, comms releases, press releases. So the vacuum is being filled by chaos around something that people aren't sure, is it a big threat? Is it not. And it really hurts the industry because see above, it's gone from nine in 10 people being optimistic about this to one in 10. Yeah, they've really fucked it up.

36:43And it's not the fault of like me complaining. I got that from one of them. It's like, it's because you're so negative. I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like, it's not our fault. You know, I said that. That's what I actually said. I'm an influencer. I'm a big, the indies agree with, you're right. It's worked, by the way. Anyway, it's just, they have done it to themselves. They've done it to themselves because they're so, and you know what drove me crazy? Then you get, this isn't an AI company, but it's all stuck in there. Palantir posting its manifesto on X over the weekend, which one outlet, it was points from Alex Karp's, the CEO's book, The Technological Republic.

37:21One outlet likened it to the ramblings of a comic book villain. And the points include, post-war neutering of Germany and Japan must be undone. I mean, it's already been undone, you dumbass. We should applaud those who attempt to build where the market failed to act. And we must resist shallow temptation of vacant and hollow pluralism. The whole thing is just so, I need them to shut up. I need all the AI people to shut up, even the good ones, and just like put in good things in place because they literally have, they keep shooting themselves in the foot about a technology that's possibly dangerous, possibly amazing and everybody hates it right everyone who's normal hates it not them and then they blame us for that yeah i don't get it and i consider myself an influencer but i suffer from paranoia i believe that nobody is following me can i ask you if you went in there to them they said scott galloway we need we need you to fix this what would be your first three moves mr brand We're having you in.

38:21We're paying you a billion dollars. For AI? Yeah. The AI companies are like, look, people fucking hate us. Yeah. I'd want to assemble a list of technologists, ethicists, and economic advisors. And I would demand a 30-day period where no model, no updated model is ever released without thorough review. That A, B, tests the shit out of this thing in terms of existential risks. and it has, if it takes fucking a decade to get a drug through the FDA, why wouldn't we mandate that the government gets to play with any new model for 30 days? And then says, we have found that this could absolutely hack the NSA or even our nuclear launch codes.

39:04So you need to tweak the following things. And we're going to assemble a blue ribbon panel. Anyone on this panel will be paid a lot of money, have tremendous prestige. And by the way, for three years, there's a sunshine period, and you cannot go on the board of any of these companies because we don't want you trading off speaking engagements and stock options for security. But at a minimum, we should have a 30-day screening blue, you know, blue ribbon panel that includes Europeans, that includes G6 nations, that includes stock market analysts and say, okay, there has to be a balance between safety and economic growth.

39:39Instead, it's just like, put it out there and see what happens. I know. From a marketing, if you were doing an ad, what would it be? We know we suck or what? What's the message for the AI companies? Oh, but here's the bottom line, Kara, is that the markets love a winner. The worst thing that's happening to Sam Altman right now is he's proving himself to be not a great CEO, and he's let Anthropic literally leapfrog him. The markets are immoral. Anthropic's going to get out at a trillion-dollar-plus valuation because it is executing like no one's business. And Cowork is on fire. They are doing such a great job.

40:17I think Dario is managing his brand fairly well. I think if I were Dario, and I think he's going to do this given that he, God, I can't imagine as much on his own plate, I would almost, I don't want to say circumvent the government, but I would be putting together an industry consortium across all of them and saying, these are our recommendations. Yeah. Even critics of them. And trying to be as thoughtful. I would also offer a bunch of LLMs for free to researchers and academics and say, have at it. We think this could cure cancer. Have at it. Yeah. I would, I have to say, I do like, I think he's messaging well, but he never comes up with solutions.

40:53Like, he just tells us it's all falling apart. So, you know, David Sachs went after him this week for being too negative. And I don't think he is. I just think while he's offering these scary scenarios, he needs to say, okay, here's what we can do. Like, he doesn't do that enough. That's what I would say about him. But why wouldn't they, why wouldn't they coordinate? I mean, they have a lot of money. Why wouldn't they take, I don't know, a billion dollars and start a center at Berkeley and said, this center is going to be focused on incurable diseases. And we're going to, we're going to give them all the models for free.

41:23We're going to get, we're going to give them compute inference. And a lot of people would say, no, it's the profit motive. But just from a, I don't want to sound a perception standpoint, but why wouldn't you say, we're starting a center for diplomatic prevention of conflict using AI. They could just do so many interesting things that show they're concerned about that. They're doing little bits of that, but yeah, their brand is really bad. And listen, Dario's going to be dragged down with the rest of them if they don't do something about it. Every journey is the same from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader.

41:54We think they're the ones that are going to save us, that they should be president. And then we find out like the rest of them, their job is to do and say whatever will get their share price up. Speed of clay. Speed of clay. There you go. It's the villain's journey. They always end up a Bond villain. And I like Dario. I don't know him personally, but I think he's made a series of really good moves. He's clearly an outstanding CEO. But here's an easy prediction. In 24 months, we'll hate him too because we will fall into the trap of believing that these people are responsible for our well-being.

42:25They're not. They're responsible for shareholder value, and that comes at a cost. And when no one's home, see above that void. Who is proposing anything resembling AI regulation right now? Well, they say it, and then it's a one-off. What would you do? What would you want to see? I would put together—I think that's—I actually hadn't thought about it, but I would—not ads saying how good we are. I would have an—well, you know, I had a back and forth with Dario's people. I'm going to see them this week. Like, but one of the things I said is you're doing all these soft interviews. Do some fucking hard ones.

42:58Like, and I was, of course, pitching for me. But, you know, like, get out there and do some, like, do a lot. And it doesn't have to just be him. It has to be a lot of people. Like, instead we're doing, you know, Sam Altman sort of had a series of bad interviews. But it's got to be a broader discussion among a lot more people, right? And demand that your critics are right in front of you. And don't wilt when a critic says something. instead of, like, they just don't want bad news. And it doesn't matter. People hate them. They really hate them. And so look at the polls. Look at young people. I mean, it's just, the brand destruction is going to take them all down.

43:35And there's so many promising things with AI. I mean, look what happened to Reese Witherspoon this week. I got slammed because I said, what was she saying? It was because they thought she was being paid by Chad GPT or Charles Porch or whatever it happened to be. But did you see all that? Like, because she was saying women need to use it. I didn't understand why she got so much hate for that. Because they thought it was an ad. I think that they, and maybe it was. I don't really care what she was saying was accurate. It doesn't, I mean, they said she's bought and paid for and she must be getting money because she has Blackstone money through the, whatever.

44:06Honestly, it was so innocuous and people, because she does books. And so all the people, it just was, it was innocuous what she said. Seriously innocuous. And I got slammed for, I wasn't really defending her. I'm like, what is she saying? That's so weird. Again, even if she was paid, I don't think it was, the message was a bad one, but I guess. And then it was like, well, I'm not going to use AI, so there. And I'm like, well, don't then. What do you want? But if you will care about where it's going, you need, it's like in the early internet, there were all these people who said, I'm not using the web.

44:40I'm like, knock yourself out, but it's happening, my friends. Don't turn on that electric light. I don't care. It's just, anyway, there's a lot of rage. The rage at her was insane, I thought. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why Netflix stock plummeted after its latest earnings. I'm eager to hear what you have to say, Scott.

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48:10Scott, we're back with more news. Netflix is out with its first earnings report since walking away from the Warner Brothers deal back in February. The company beat expectations on revenue and earnings driven by membership growth, ad sales, and higher subscription prices, plus that$2.8 billion breakup fee. Thanks, Ellison. Thanks, Paramount. But the Q2 forecast was below analyst expectations. It set shares down 10%. The earnings also came with a few announcements, a deeper push into AI, and the launch of a TikTok-like vertical video feed within the app. They're trying to do a lot more. AI makes total sense in that regard.

48:44And notably, Netflix co-founder and chairman of the board, Reed Hastings, is leaving the company when his term expires in June. He wants to do a lot of other things. Talk first about the earnings. We're going to get into the Netflix's podcast plans in just a second. I can go over what they're doing. But why don't you talk about the earnings themselves? And by the way, can I just take a moment? I met Reed Hastings right at the beginning of this company. and I have known him for a long time. I got to say, an amazing entrepreneur, what he did and shifted deserves enormous credit. And he was the real engine.

49:16And Ted is doing a great job. So are his Bella Bajaria. So are the new people there. But Reed Hastings is a generational entrepreneur and congratulations on your tenure. So go ahead. Yeah, agreed. Look, the earnings were fantastic. Their revenue was up 16 % year over year, beating expectations. Their earnings was nearly double what analysts expected. There was a bit of a sugar high, though, because of the$3 billion termination fee from the collapsed Warner Brothers deal. What shocked me was the ad tier now drives over 60 % of new signups in ad-supported markets. And they're on track to hit$3 billion in ad revenue this year.

49:59So now they're becoming a big media player, ad-supported media player, with a business that barely even existed two years ago. And the full-year guidance held at about$51 to$52 billion, but Q2 guidance of 13 % growth came in below what the bulls wanted to see. So I think that, I guess, I looked at these earnings. I mean, this is the weird and the beautiful thing about the market. If I had seen these earnings before the market's reaction, I would have guessed the market would be flat to up. So I don't know if they're taking Reed's departure as a signal this is no longer a growth company or that just some air was coming out of the stock.

50:34I don't get it I don't you know there was some speculation that Reid was leaving because of the botched Warner Brothers deal I think that's bullshit I think like you said he just wants to do different things he has a lot of stuff the stock was up 18 % year to date heading into the print now it's just up 7 % but that's not bad the I did meet with Ted Sarandos two years ago and I told him I thought they should launch a TikTok competitor because the long tail of Netflix content doesn't get viewed very much and I thought have an open source opportunity for artists and creators to slice it up and it would be incredible marketing and I think they could have a viable competitor to TikTok.

51:13And at that point you said we use TikTok as a marketing. I would trust them. I like their stuff so I would trust them. It looks like they're getting into the business. They're launching a TikTok style vertical video feed this month and YouTube has 13 % of all US TV viewing versus Netflix at 9%, but YouTube Shorts has grown 186 % in 15 months with Shorts on connected TV accounting for part of their growth. And then Meta recently announced that Reels for TV, they're doing Reels for TV where users can watch short-form content on television. And Reels already has a$50 billion annual run rate in ad revenue.

51:53That's more revenue than WBD and NBC Universal combined. And basically everyone now, 95 % of consumers now watch some form of short-form video. Kara Swisher. And since pre-pandemic, time spent... Don't you? Time spent watching... Oh, I hate to admit it. People ask me what my media sources were, and I used to say the FT and The Economist to sound smart. The bottom line is, I'm getting most of my content from short-form video right now. Me too. And time spent watching video content on social media has more than doubled since the pandemic. and Meta's revenues have nearly tripled and TikToks have grown tenfold.

52:27So I think that what Netflix has is they have proprietary content. So proprietary content that's not user-generated but user-edited, what could you do? There's been some amazing Netflix content that never bubbles up and never gets seen. Put it out and say, guys, have at it. Slice it into two-minute things. Create new stories. Add in different effects. Add in different humor. different subtitles, have added. What I pitched, Ted, I'm like, start something called NetVibes and basically say it's a TikTok competitor with all the proprietary content of the long tail stuff. I love that, Scott. The 90 % that gets 2 % of your viewership time.

53:08Why did you just give away that great name? That was really good. You're talented. That was good. You said two very smart things today. It's because I was under the influence. Anyways, but Ted just sort of rolled his eyes and said, why would we do that when TikTok is such a great marketing engine for us right now? But it looks like they're saying, okay, we no longer, we need a growth story. I think this is a great idea. I think they're doing it. And with the case of Netflix, the second mouse may get the cheese here. I think it's a great idea for them. Oh, interesting. All right. So I'm going to, let me just tell you, the second thing is they're going all in on podcasts, which is interesting.

53:43And I have a lot of information about this because I immediately started looking into it. Netflix has announced five more shows coming to its platforms. These are exclusive shows, including a new weekly interview show with Brian Williams. Hulu has also announced four more podcasts, including Handsome and three others based on TV shows. Hulu is not as strict as Netflix. Netflix requires the shows to forego YouTube entirely, and Hulu does not, it looks like. So this is really interesting. So I asked what the deals were, and someone said, deal structure looks like this. episodic fee, low end of 25K an episode, average range 50 to 75K an episode, higher for celeb talent.

54:24Production budget on top, six to 12 month initial terms with 26 to 52 episodes, depending on term length, ownership, Netflix, but sometimes they are given reversion rights. IP maybe if they're making them. I wasn't tremendously impressed with the choices they made. I like Brian Williams, but it seems like they should really go for a much more younger demo, I guess, or more online demo, influencer demo. But that was just me. What are your thoughts here? What do you think? That's a lot of money. You know, if you got$50 ,000 an episode, that's a buttload of money. $2.5 million a year. Well, we've been talking in our own book, but it doesn't mean I don't believe it.

55:06Every political cycle, there is a technology. Obama weaponized search, Trump, Facebook. I would say the second one was about social. A lot of people would say this is now, these midterms are going to be the AI midterms with a ton of misinformation. But I think in general, this election or the last election was really the podcast election. And do you remember that graph that showed that newspapers were getting 30 % of all ad revenue, but they only had 8 % readership and the internet was getting 10 % of revenue, but had 50 % of all time? Those two tend to calibrate. And the fastest growing ad-supported medium in the nation is not meta or alphabet.

55:45It's podcasting. Which is video casting, really. But go ahead. It's television with a lower cost of means of production. It's 80 % of TV. And a closer relationship with fans. You can't leave that out. It's not just because it's cheap. And it's not starched. It's not a handsome guy saying save content for 22 minutes and then showing a video about a butterfly garden. Right. It's people who are willing. And some people like the conspiracy shit. And some people want people calling Hegseth a drunk. And sometimes people are just so fucking talented that they bubble up past the means of production that have sequestered some of this talent.

56:26And it was podcasting. You know, the Golden Globes now has it as a category. We're up. Pivot is up 25 % or 30 % this year. Probably media is up 46 % this year. Podcasts are growing like crazy. And what's even more interesting is the chaser effects are the following. The average age of a Fox viewer is 69, CNN 67, CNBC 64. The average podcast listener is 34. And when you're 34, it means you're buying houses, cars, getting kids, which are very expensive, and dogs. So this is, quote unquote, the core demographic. So in addition, as evidenced by the fact that the easiest guest for Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway to get on their show is someone running for president.

57:18We can call anyone who's thinking, quote unquote, not going to make the decision in a year or two year with their family. Yeah, they're calling us and they want to come on because they're running for president. Because How many messages right here? Because what's interesting is that, you know, I don't know if you found this, but on Prof. Tate, they don't perform that well. I find that really interesting. A more interesting... Some of them do. Buttigieg did great. I'll tell you that. He's exceptional. He's exceptional. Newsom did really well. That's not true. It's not true. Some of them do well.

57:48It depends. I'm going to pay attention to what does well. I find on average politicians don't score nearly as well as some of the other guests we have. But anyways... Maybe your audience does. In terms of downloads or viewership. But my point is the new people actually listen to the ads. The other innovation that no traditional media company wanted to do because they decided their talent was too precious is host readovers. That gets – if you just do an insert ad on YouTube or just an insert ad, you get between$3 and$10 CPMs. You reading over an ad, you talking about your Chevy Bolt and how much you like it, which you really do.

58:22I love it. That gets a CPM of$45 or$50. bucks. Chevy, the media company at General Motors is like, they're allocating more and more money. And now these things finally have the scale. So Netflix could be the new, Netflix is late on short for video. They're late on podcasts. But when you have direct relationship with 80 % of households, you can play catch up pretty fast. One of the things that drives me crazy with the media reporters, when they were talking about the Vox thing, I was like, you all don't get where the money is now, where the voices are, where the, like, it just drives me crazy because they're living in a different world.

59:01Like when I, not all of them, by the way, but when I, I've been doing a lot of press for this CNN thing and I'm like, they're like, oh, is Vox trying to, you know, just save itself? I'm like, no, it has valuable, a thing that's valuable, you idiots. And so, you know, and the same thing with these deals, they were sort of pooping. I'm like, you don't understand what's happening here. And I can't say it enough, just sitting at a table on a street in San Francisco with my son, the kind of people, the people that stopped, people that stopped me on the street now, it's really astonishing, like nothing I've ever done.

59:37And it's, it's, and most of people, Scott, tell me, thank you for doing what you and Scott are doing, or thank you for doing that interview. They thank you for your content. That never happened to me before in my life. So I don't know how you feel about that. The most rewarding thing about it, I mean, look, the money's great, but the most rewarding thing about it is that when people come up to you, they start speaking to you as if they're your friend.

1:00:03Kara Swisher:Yep. And it's really nice. People feel a parasocial, they have a parasocial relationship with you, and they feel good about you. I think it's because you're physically in their ears oftentimes, So it creates intimacy. And also you're talking to them as they're doing something quite personal. They're walking the dog, they're doing the dishes. It's their morning routine. But I think the most rewarding thing about being a podcaster, like if you get to a certain point, it's a little bit like the NBA. the analogy I use is that when I rode crew at UCLA, there's been 2 ,000 people who have rode crew, 10 went to the Olympics.

1:00:39So what is that? Like a 0.5%, not even 0.5 % went to the Olympics. It's 0.1 % of podcasters are self-sustaining economically. So you are five times more likely to go to the Olympics if you rode at UCLA than have a successful podcast. This is a difficult business, but once you get to break even, the economics here are incredible because there's – what do we have? We have three producers. We outsource our ad sales to Vox, and this is a$15 million business growing to 25 probably in the next 24 months. Just do the math. This is an incredibly, this creates as much EBITDA. Pivot will probably create as much EBITDA as one of the most successful shows on MS Now or Fox or anywhere else.

1:01:29It won't be as big top line, but the EBITDA margins are just incredibly dramatic. But hands down, the most rewarding thing from a host standpoint. It's the relationship. It's the relationship with fans. These really lovely people come up to you and they start talking to you about their kids. I mean, maybe they do that. No, I've never had it happen. Never had it happen. My whole career. I have had a long and pretty well-known career. But I'll tell you, a very famous author was on my plane today, and he texted me. He had my number. He texted me, just thank you for what you're doing. And he didn't want to say hi because he felt like he was bothering me, which he wasn't.

1:02:05But what I'll say is we have a responsibility, and I think our responsibility, and I'm trying to live up to this, is the medium is creating good vibes. I think mostly because, and I do think this is true of most podcasts. When you go on cable TV, and this happened to me when I went on Pierce Morgan or a couple times when I've gone on Fox, they're trying to engage a little bit in call-out culture and create antagonism. I have found the vast majority of podcasters, when I go on a podcast, even if they disagree with me, even if they're conservative, they're trying to present you in a fair and positive light.

1:02:37And I think as podcasters, we have an obligation to maintain that cultural zeitgeist, to show some grace. Even if you disagree with people, we're not in the business of calling them out. You want a thoughtful, nuanced conversation. Let them run with their views. Yes, I wouldn't say it's okay to disagree and it's okay to push back. I do think you have to, informational and like, let's hear this person is what I'm trying to do. And I like with the Tillis one. Your goal isn't to make them look stupid. Right. Sometimes they do. Your goal is to have a thoughtful discourse such that your listeners learn, but also to demonstrate that people from different sides of the political spectrum can demonstrate some grace towards each other.

1:03:17I agree. I agree with you. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Thank you. Now's the time to save on new carpet at The Home Depot. Receive 10 % off your total carpet project and 12 months special financing. Plus, we'll measure your space for free. Choose from a variety of stylish, on-trend options fit for everyday life with LifeProof, LifeProof with PetProof technology, Home Decorators Collection, and Traffic Master carpets. Save 10 % and get 12 months special financing now at The Home Depot. Offer valid April 16th through May 3rd, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see homedepot.com slash license numbers.

1:03:56Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, an original and cherry vanilla. That Pepsi taste you love with no artificial sweeteners and three grams of prebiotic fiber. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, unbelievably Pepsi. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been talking about the war in Iran in distinctly biblical terms, citing Psalms, the resurrection of Jesus, and the book of Quentin. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. President Trump is comparing himself to Christ. Vice President Vance is fighting with the Pope. Watching all of this is the increasingly influential pastor Doug Wilson.

1:04:38He co-founded the church that Hegseth attends. Wilson's a Christian nationalist who would like the USA to be a theocracy. He'd also like to help us get there, though he doesn't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I believe that it is accelerating. I believe that we're making significant gains. I see assembling resources, and I'm encouraged in that labor. But I don't expect to see what we're praying for in my lifetime. Pastor Doug Wilson and how much you should worry about his plans on Today Explained from Vox. Weekdays, afternoons, wherever.

1:05:16Okay, Scott, we're going to do some wins and fails. I'm going to go first, if you don't mind. I mean, I already talked about Palantir's stupid manifesto, but two people, Ron Conway, a really well-known figure in Silicon Valley who I like very much. He was the one that was pushing back on. He's been, I just really like him. He and I have had lots of beefs over the years, but he's a really legendary venture capitalist. He announced he had a cancer. He's not giving specifics about it, and he's fighting it. He's given so much money to medical stuff in San Francisco, incredibly generous and unusual for a lot of these VCs who just only think about themselves.

1:05:51But Ron's a very civic-minded person in San Francisco. And people have different beliefs with him, but I really adore him. And he's struggling with some cancer. And he wrote me a series of very joyful texts over the weekend. I love you. Thank you so much. check because I wrote him a note and I just hope he, he has all the, he has all the money and to, to do all, and all the connections in science because he's done so much fundraising. Um, I hope for the best for him. And the second one is, um, so that's a fail for mine. And same thing is, uh, Senator Warner's daughter died. Uh, she had juvenile diabetes and a series of health issues.

1:06:29And I, both Scott and I love talking to him. We find him very thoughtful. Um, and so I I just, my condolences go to him. She's 36 years old and, again, struggled with juvenile diabetes and ensuing bunches of issues. And my win is this Atlantic piece. It's a little bit of a dunker, but everyone is getting on board with this idea that maybe the tech billionaires aren't here to help us, which I think is a narrative I've tried to get through a little bit. But I thought that this guy, Noah Hawley, who was responsible for Fargo and a bunch of other things I love online, he's been writing for The Atlantic, and I just really, really enjoy his work.

1:07:11But I really – let me just read two quotes from this piece in The Atlantic. It's called What I Learned About Billionaires at Jeff Bezos' Private Retreat. These guys are having their own retreats. Bezos' is called Campfire. And it's a devastating piece, actually, and I think very true and fair. This is the hubris of accomplishment. To be declared a genius at one thing is to begin to believe you are a genius at everything. It's not that the wealthy become evil. It's that their environment stops teaching them the things that non-wealthy people are forced to learn simply by living in a world that pushes back.

1:07:46When you can buy your way out of any mistake, when you can fire anyone who disagrees with you, when your social circle consists entirely of people who need something from you, The basic mechanism by which humans learn that other people are real goes dark. Fantastic piece, Noah Hawley. I recommend it. It's beautifully written and incredibly fair. So anyway, yours? I'm just parroting your comments. I did not know that about Ron Conway, and I'm sorry to hear that. Ron invested in two of my companies back in the 90s when I was playing in traffic and starting e-commerce companies. He was one of my first investors in Red Envelope.

1:08:25And one of my first investors in my e-commerce incubator, Brandfarm. I didn't know that. Wow. Yeah. And I'll say this about Ron. You know, you have good investors and you have bad investors. And Ron, I would just describe, is incredibly supportive. No matter what was going on, was emotionally and financially just like really on the side of entrepreneurs. And I'm sorry to hear that. And I share your warm wishes. is also share your condolences and sympathies with Senator Warner. Obviously, every parent's worst nightmare. I know Senator Warner. I would consider myself friendly, but I'm not close friends with him.

1:09:05But I have a close friend who's very close to Senator Warner. And the senator has been approached by any number of people on a regular basis about running for president. And a lot of people felt that he brought the gravitas, the credentials, and quite frankly, the kind of moderate positioning that they thought would be a great candidate for president. And what I have heard is that he never, ever, ever seriously considered it because he was always very focused on his family. So he is that guy, not the one who was performative. Oh, I'm gonna check with my family. He was oftentimes, people wanted to draft him, but he was always kind of family first.

1:09:43Anyways, share your condolences. My win is much more boring. I just wanted to talk a little bit about Reed Hastings and just the incredible tenure, 99 to 2023, founded in 1997. So he's there 30 years. So you want to talk about from a startup to global giant. In 2000, they had 300 ,000 subscribers. This year, they'll have 300 million. The revenue went from 3 billion in 2011. This year, it will do$45 billion. In terms of market value, they rejected a$50 million acquisition offer in 2000. This year, they're now worth about$400 billion, one of the largest value creations in tech history. In terms of business transformation, talk about the mother of all big ball pivots from DVD rentals to streaming in 2007, from streaming to original content with House of Cards.

1:10:42And then he's gone from the U.S. to 190 plus countries globally. Their profitability, tons of losses in the 2000s, multi-billions in annual profits. And then the cultural impact that people don't talk enough about was that Netflix deck they put out on their culture. They talk about freedom and responsibility, no vacation limits, high performance culture. And the thing, I did actually take something from them. They stated out loud that they wanted to be a company known for exceptional compensation. And I've tried to adopt the same thing. I've always tried to pay my people more than market, or I shouldn't say always, the last 10 years.

1:11:19But this company, they took a DVD by mail startup, they pivoted into streaming, they scaled it globally, and they turned it into a half a trillion dollar media platform. 30 years, 1000x user growth, 15x revenue growth, and And, you know, redefined or defined the category. I would argue one of the top five to ten tech CEO careers of the last 30 years. And you know what? He did it with a lot of grace. He was never. Absolutely. He was never a scandal, never shitposting other people, never found drunk driving, never shitty tweets he had to erase or delete. Never attention on himself. You know, just.

1:12:02Yeah. Can I just add that? I've had him on stage many times, but I have to say, of all the people, I would rather spend time with Reed Hastings. And I know Hollywood all hates their mis-system, but it's not their fault that they found a way to do a different system. It's Hollywood's fault for having a bad economic system that was no longer sustainable. They like to sort of blame Netflix. I think that's unfair. They do what they do. That's what they make. And I don't think they're diminishing it. You don't have to watch it if you don't like it in that regard. And I think they put out a lot of great content, actually.

1:12:33They put in a lot of silly content, too. But I got to tell you, he's a fucking class act. So is Ron. They're class acts. All these guys you're talking about. And he clearly imprinted really solid DNA. The co-CEOs now, Greg Peters and Ted Surroundos. I don't know Greg, but I know Ted. But they're both have a reputation for being not only very intelligent, but very decent men. So Netflix is a great company, great leadership. And this guy's historic run is historic. So my win is the tenure of Reed Hastings. By the way, one of the things I was thinking about, Scott, was you talked about that is the decency.

1:13:09And we started with the incompetence, like Akash Patel. People are fucking sick of these incompetence and these, like, look at me, performative bullshit liars. Like, I don't know what else to say, but I was watching Obama and Mandami thing. They were promoting universal free child care and singing Wheels on the Bus. Did you see that video? It was very likable, humane. It was really nice. Yes, it was so nice. I was like, enough of that, the other shit, the cash patels, and more of that. More wheels on the bus. That's all I have to say. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

1:13:47Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with comedian Nikki Glaser, who is a new stand-up special called Good Girl coming out Friday on Hulu. She talked about how overcoming fear pushes her to be the best. Let's listen to a clip. I love fear. I run into fear. Picture fear as like a wall that you have to run into. And so I kind of go into that of like, I know that my self-esteem is built upon doing things that are hard and conquering them. So I know that on the other side of doing this horribly uncomfortable thing is me feeling better about myself.

1:14:28It's a great interview. Scott, you reminded me of you a little bit. It was interesting. I was talking to her. It was interesting. I think you'll like it. I like her because she's dirty. She's also dirty. She talked about that. Anyway, the show is called Good Girl, and she's not always good in the show, but actually she is. She's a really talented comic. I like her a lot and very thoughtful and very funny. That's the most important part. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube. channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Weissman.

1:15:00Ernie Intertot engineered the episode. Rich Sibley edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Brozman, Saveria, and Dan Chalanda, Shaq Karaz, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot for New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can get subscribed to the magazine at nymag.com. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week.

1:15:25Thank you.