Kimmel & ABC, Nvidia’s OpenAI Investment, and Tylenol’s Trump Problem

24:32It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B ROAs of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. You can spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free$250 credit for the next one. No strings attached. Just go to linkedin.com slash scott. That's linkedin.com slash scott. Terms and conditions apply.

24:59Scott, we're back. Stock for Tylenol maker Kenview is down 7 % in the last five days after President Trump's announcement that the medicine may be linked to autism. Tylenol alone generates an estimated$1 billion in annual sales for the company. The company has added information to its frequently asked question section stating there's no scientific evidence to back up the link, citing public health organizations that agree, including lots of doctors, a Republican, everyone else. The FDA still has initiated a process for a label change to products containing the drugs and ingredients are associated with a higher risk of autism.

25:32Actually, the highest risk of autism is genetics, especially among older men. There's all kinds of actual science around autism, and it's a very complex issue. What would you do here if you were the head of Kenview? And by the way, Tylenol used to be owned famously by J &J and sold it to this company. What would you do here? Like, this is crazy. Like, would you sue the president? Or what? Oh, yeah, I'd absolutely go on the offensive. I think this is a kind of a textbook definition of defamation, that there's no real science. I mean, there have been some observational studies that have shown that prolonged acetaminophen use during pregnancy is associated with higher rates of neurodevelopmental disorders in children, but these studies aren't controlled, meaning that they aren't really legitimate studies that qualify as science yet.

26:17And also, the reality is, and on my other pod raging moderates, Jess Tarlow actually got emotional. She's like, this is the only safe alternative for pregnant women. Yes, I was pregnant also, and it was the only safe alternative. It's ridiculous what he was saying. The science is so bad on it, and actually some of those studies don't even have studies. They are not complete studies. I forget what the expression is, but they're not actually. The ones that are showing show very complex things, and often genetics, like twins who have it, have it. There's a lot of genetic issues. But should they take legal action?

27:00And who do they sue? The president, right? Correct? I don't know what the rules are around. There is a certain blanket protection that when it's hard to sue public officials if they can show there's no malice. They can get it wrong. But generally speaking, the government has, my understanding, has fairly broad protections. But I would absolutely go on offense and say, there's no science to support this. And I would have run commercials of women saying, I mean, there are women who their pregnancies would just be tangibly more miserable without Tylenol. You're looking at one. Right. So for them, with RFK Jr.

27:46in the background and his junk, weird voodoo science, for them to say something like this and for it to have an impact on this, what do you have? You're saying something not true without proper diligence about your statements that has serious economic harm. They lost 10 % of their market cap here. And I think they need to say, I mean, the temptation will be just go underground, just stay out of his way. people will look at the science. Doctors will tell pregnant women, no, you can take Tylenol. I would absolutely play offense and say, this is outrageous. It is not true. And you owe us 10 % of our market cap.

28:23I don't know the legal protection the president has. I don't think it results in a settlement where the president or the White House or the government has to pay them. But I think for optics, they need to say, we are so confident in Tylenol's use that when someone says this, we want the science exposed, examined, and scrutinized by a judge, a jury, and the experts that both sides bring in. Yeah, that worked when J &J had that crisis around, remember the tampering and everything else. They were very aggressive. They were super aggressive. So I do an entire session in Brand Strategy on crisis management, and the premier case study across all crisis management is Tylenol.

29:08And that is, I forget when it was, some madman tampered with Tylenol and put cyanide in it. A couple of people take it, they drop dead. And then tragedy on tragedy, the people who took their loved ones to the morgue or to the hospital then returned home and had terrible headaches. And what did they do? They took Tylenol and died. And the temptation and the response that most companies would probably have taken up is the following. This is an isolated incident. You have nothing to worry about. Tylenol said, and Johnson & Johnson said, clear every shelf of every box of Tylenol until we know exactly what happened and we can put more tamper-proof packaging back on the shelves.

29:52It cost them tens of millions of dollars. I mean, basically the next day where Tylenol was, or within 48 hours, it was empty. And it ended up really restoring and creating a ton of trust in Johnson & Johnson and sort of served as the model for crisis management. There are only three things you have to remember in crisis management, but they're really difficult to do. One, you acknowledge the problem, right? This happened. This was terrible. It happened with our product too. The top guy or gal has to be out in front. And one of the reasons Exxon got in so much trouble, the Valdez was the CEO couldn't be found.

30:27And then the third thing and the hardest thing to do is to overcorrect. And that is you don't, The temptation is to undercorrect and not get in the way of your business. No, no, no. You clear all shelves. And so actually Johnson & Johnson is considered like the literally the prototype for crisis management. Right. But in this case, they didn't do anything wrong. It's just the truck making things up. There's no tampering. There's no science. There's no nothing. So it's a little harder. 100%. I think. But you're right. They should be aggressive. 100%. One of the things that also happened during that president for people who have not been pregnant is the information around vaccines was so wrong by Trump.

31:07I mean, it literally said to me, you've never taken your children for vaccines, any of them. You have a lot of kids. You've never gone once. He's probably never changed a diaper if I had a guess, but it was so full of people who did not know what they were talking about and do not have and have children, but seemingly has never done any of the normal things you do for your kids. It was really quite something. Oh, God, I'm triggered. I remember taking my oldest, Alec, to get vaccines, and he hated needles and him screaming at me and having to, like, hold him down. I know. Oh, God. Louis punched a nurse once.

31:38Ugh. That was rough. I don't know. It was, like, the measles vaccine. He literally, like, he didn't mean to. She stuck his arm and his hand. They're afraid. Like, whacked her in the face. I was like, oh, my God. It was really something. Anyway, they are afraid. And vaccines are a lot better now. There's a lot of nasal ones and everything else. But really, really go for it, Kenview. Speaking of saying they made a mistake, YouTube says it will reinstate accounts previously banned for posting misinformation about COVID-19 in the 2020 election. The decision comes in response to House Republican investigation into whether the Biden administration pressured tech companies to remove certain content.

32:16previously banned accounts includes Children's Health Defense Fund, affiliated with RFK Jr. and Republican Senator Ron Johnson. It's a move to appease the administration, you know, essentially. And it's what they, they never wanted to do it in the first place. And it's not, there's not much clear evidence there was, there was the kind of pressure these people are making up. But that said, this is to, this is a counter move to appease the current administration. And then they'll do a counter move if there's another administration doing something like this. The most popular platforms in the world moderate.

32:48And so the amount of moderation or lack thereof has become a bit of a political football or litmus test. So, yeah, fine. On YouTube, on all of these platforms, you can get pretty dark, ugly content pretty fast. So I don't, you know, the free speech, the free speechers, if you will, aren't true free speechers. What they are is they want speech that they feel helps them and they want to censor speech that they don't. The people fighting for free speech are generally the loudest ones are the ones that actually are the censors. So, you know, so this is the same administration that wants to tell late night talk shows what to do.

33:35So fine, have it, have at it. And what's so disappointing again, is that just as Iger should have said, okay, I'm going to sacrifice maybe some shareholder value here and do the right thing. I think at some point, these platforms have to say, this is our approach to moderation. We're happy to listen to you, but you're not going to dictate it because - They don't want to moderate. It costs them money. It gets nothing but headaches. I agree with you. But the question is, everyone moderates. It's where the line is. And at some point, you'd like to think one of these guys is going to say, this is our policy.

34:11And we're sticking with it. Because free speech is not only about letting people say shit. It's about your right to not say shit on your platform. Or take it down. And the Supreme Court has backed these companies on this stuff, too. So the lack of courage here to do what they want to do, and they just don't care. They're private companies. But they don't care. They don't care the damage they caused. And it's led by Mark Zuckerberg in that regard. I was so tired of arguing this point with him. And he pretended he was a free speech person. He certainly wasn't. He doesn't really care. He doesn't care.

34:44He doesn't care. He doesn't care to run a classy joint. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about reigniting of the fight over whether businesses can't Refuse service. This is a fascinating story.

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37:14Scott, we're back with more news. News Attorney General Pam Bondi is investigating Office Depot after employees refused to print a memorial poster for conservative activist Charlie Kirk. She's threatening prosecution for political discrimination. The company fired the workers, but legal experts say government action would violate the First Amendment. The case echoes the Colorado baker who won the Supreme Court right to refuse same-sex wedding services. He didn't want to bake a cake for the gays. This is amazing. Again, these people, they were for that, but against this. and these people can get fired from Office Depot.

37:47That's Office Depot's business. If they don't, they can do whatever they want, but these people don't have to make those signs if they don't want to. And if you believe in the cake thing, at the time of the cake thing, I was like, it did run into some state rules. Look, if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, we don't want your shitty cake. I don't know what to say like in this, and it's the same. It's the same every accusation is a confession of these people. They just literally shift and were never really believing in it when they first did it, or they don't believe in it now, or I don't know.

38:19What would you do if you were the CEO of a company with this problem, Scott? I probably would have fired them. I think, look, it sucks to be a grownup, and it's your right not to do it, but that means you're probably not going to get a paycheck, because every day a lot of people show up, and when you cash someone else's check, you agree to do occasionally things you don't want to do. I think there is a difference, though, with the bakery, and I don't know the semantics of the law, but I think that was refusing service, effectively refusing service based on someone's sexual orientation. And I think that is against the law.

38:50I think refusing - It was in a state, but the Supreme Court sided with the cake people. With the cake people? Sure enough. Thank you for that. Whereas this is, the moment you say to employees as big and as varied in Office Depot, you don't have to participate in certain things that offend your politics, watch out. Well, these people, I'm not going to help this company buy the lumber for the office building down the street for the government because I think the government is committing war crimes. That's what happened to Google, Microsoft. People can, listen, everybody, you can't object. You may have a consequence to your objection, is what you're saying.

39:35I like what you said. You don't want to eat a Chick-fil-A? Don't eat a Chick-fil-A. You want to walk out during lunch at Google to protest Google working with the Defense Department? Good for you. That says fucking nothing. It's you totally virtue signaling. But if you start creating, making it harder for Google to do their business, the leaders of the company get to decide who they work with and you get to decide if you want to work there or not. Yeah, exactly. And if you don't want to work on certain accounts, you can say that. And I mean, most people are reasonable and they'll say, OK, fine, whatever.

40:09Get someone else to print the things. But generally speaking, they're at will employees. And printing up a Charlie Kirk poster, there's nothing illegal about it. I don't think there's anything wrong about it. If it offends your sensibilities, OK, I get it. But folks, it sucks to be a grown up. Yeah, I just think people should also be able to say no. and then reap the consequences. That's all. I think they should be able to say no. Pam Bonney's saying she's going to prosecute them for political discrimination. Shut the fuck up, Pam. Stop. Didn't they fire the employees? Yeah, they fired them. What is she suing them for?

40:44No idea. She has no right to do so. She has no right to do so. It's called the First Amendment, Pam. As usual, you don't know what it says for some reason. It's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. Again. Ridiculous. Yeah, go for it. Just keep Epstein out of the news. Keep Epstein, right. Exactly. You know, again, I probably wouldn't want to do it. I don't know. I don't know about those signs. But, you know, if someone came, I was working in an office depot, and it was like, gay people should be hung or whatever, I wouldn't print them. I think that's different than a Charlie Kirk poster. You're right, I guess.

41:17But they can still decide. You still get to do what you want. You still get to do what you want. And then you rethink. What would you do? The CEO, you fire them, right? You fire them. I respect your political beliefs. When you sign up to work at Office Depot, we all have to occasionally do shit we don't want to do. I appreciate your values. But if we immediately start letting people decide what work they're going to do or not do based on what offends their sense of political sensibilities, I'm sorry we can't operate a company that way. Yeah. Or you're a company that says, sure, you can do that, right?

41:50Look, if somebody comes in wearing a swastika or buys a Halloween costume with a swastika or whatever, or comes in, the bottom line is, you know, that's hate speech. But is it free speech? I don't know. You serve them, you thank them, and they leave your store. And it sucks, but these things are tested. The whole point of these protections is they're protected when they're really fucking offensive. And I don't think a Charlie Kirk poster even rises to the level of very offensive. Yeah, I don't think we should even decide. If they want to not do it, they should not do it, but they still have to read the consequences.

42:22Fine. You might get fired. Yeah, you might get fired. You may not want to work in a target that sells beef because you think it's genocide against cows. Fine. They have the right to say, well, no, we're in the business of selling meat. You can't work here. Right. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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45:36Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. Well, this is where we are. We're going to see a Time Warner-like acquisition that's going to be unprecedented in scale and also a disaster. Because what you have is you have companies, basically 55 % of the gains in the S &P since 2021 have been driven by 10 companies. And these companies are now so far out over their skis in terms of valuation that it's the equivalent of, say you have a preloaded credit card. My kids have the green light credit card where we load it for them. If you're trading at$3 or$4 trillion in value and you're really smart and you look at, okay, traditionally a company like this would be worth one to one and a half.

46:19It's like having$2.5 trillion on your credit card that likely will go away if you don't spend it. And so I think these companies, I think we're going to see, and I said this last week, a series of not only the biggest M &A deals in history, but I think we're going to see a company that in three to five years will be seen as the most disastrous M &A deal in history. These guys are absolutely about to go shopping and they're just going to get so promiscuous and do so many weird things, so many related party transactions. This NVIDIA thing, this OpenAI thing is so strange. But I just wanted to take a moment on a tangential issue.

46:54That's nothing to do with a prediction. But for those of you, I keep getting served all of these Instagrams of all these adorable dogs that are at shelters. So people surrendering their pets. The NASDAQ and the Dow Jones are the worst indices, in my opinion, in history because they give people the illusory notion that the economy is fine. The top 10 % are now responsible for 50 % of consumer spending. Sales of hamburger helper are up, which is a negative looking forward indicator on the health of the middle and lower income. Pond shops are booming. There's just a lot of signals that the economy is not good on the main street economy.

47:36And one of those signals is that people surrendering their pets has gone way up. and just a quick add for, in terms of mental health, joy, things that are great for your kids, just generally, if you're worried about crime, literally the best security system you could ever have is a dog. It teaches your kids about loss, responsibility. Dogs have been arguably the most accretive thing, maybe next to exercise, the most accretive thing for my mental health. And these shelters are literally overwhelmed. In addition, my plug for a rescue dog, I've had purebreds and rescues. Rescues and mutts are hands down the best breed of dog.

48:25They are healthier. They are happier. It's as if they know they owe you. So there is, if you just type in how to adopt a dog into Google, there are so many shelters that are so desperate. And not only that, I have so many fantastic dogs right now. So if you're thinking to yourself, I'd love something that reduces my stress. I'd love something that provides me with a great deal of additional security. I want to take responsibility for something and have something that loves me unconditionally. I want to give my kids something that will teach them responsibility and care and love. And you want to feel more mammal and you want to feel more connected.

49:04and just every day you want consistent tiny bursts of joy in your life, think about adopting a dog. There has never been a better time to adopt a dog because there are a ton of wonderful dogs out there right now. I will add all the dogs I've ever had have been rescue dogs, and I'm thinking of getting another dog soon. It's the most wonderful thing you do, and there's some amazing rescue operations going on, And it is an indicator of people giving up dogs means they can't afford them or the difficulty level, et cetera, et cetera. And so it is an indicator. But if you can adopt a dog, it's a really, it will give, it will pay off over your life.

49:45And you can go on Instagram. And if you type in the name, if you just say shelters in Brooklyn, you type it into Instagram, you will literally see videos of the dogs that are available. You don't even have to go down. I'm going to get a dog, Scott. What's that? I'm going to get a dog now. Oh, you should. They're just. I've had a dog my whole life. This is the only time. but my cat's been peeing on the rug so it's been a little much so you're bringing in a dog to get the cat in shape no i just it's just like when when that starts it my cat is older when it starts to happen it you start i'm like oh pets um but i you're right we should get a dog get a dog no matter good one good prediction scott one thing i do want to note um here's a prediction uh we talked about i talked about k-pop demon hunters uh on the last show and i got contacted by the creators of the two directors, and they're going to come on on, I think.

50:29So I predict that will be off the charts. Wow. That's very exciting. I know. They listen to us. That's because we're 23, Scott, just so you know. Number 23. I have one prediction, actually, that I think is important. I think you're going to see a lot of ridiculous deals by the Trump administration. Here they are taking VIGs from NVIDIA or AMD or whoever they're taking VIGs from or Intel buying the pieces of all. But they'll turn around. Right now they want to give farmers aid. I think Mark Cuban raised something that I thought was absolutely true. If taxpayers funds this, should the president ask for equity in farms?

51:06I say no. But if they're going to be consistent, same with money going to rural hospitals. We took equity from Intel and MP. Why shouldn't we do it for all profit companies that get funding? And so I agree with him. This is ridiculous. Same thing with Argentina. Mr. Free Market's going to get a bailout. Like, give me a fucking break because he's a friend of Trump's. This is Malay in Argentina. This is crap. If they're going to be doing this to some companies, they have to treat all companies. And they're only doing it for their friends. So you're going to see more cronyism, 100%. So anyway, there's going to be more of this ridiculous hypocrisy of helping your friends and acting like it's not exactly what it is, which is a handout.

51:46We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. of it. Elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe this week, this week on Prof G Conversations, Scott spoke with Dr. Fiona Hill, a senior fellow at Brookings, really well known for those trials around the one perfect call. Let's listen to a clip. Look, the federal government's being dismantled. The states are pretty much on their own right now as well. And, you know, I think the sinking realization is coming in for a lot of people, you know, that this isn't quite what they expected that they were voting for.

52:21They didn't think that all of the safety nets, the insurance policies were going to be removed. And it's the same in Europe. You know, Europeans absolutely made a huge fundamental error for decades, just relying on the United States and basically outsourcing their security. It was always a mistake. And now they've realized it. And they're going to have to do something different. She's amazing. She's an amazing person. She's absolutely right. There's very few people. Well, there's very few people that intimidate me. She intimidates me. And by the way, I met another woman who I think is really outstanding, Anne Applebaum.

52:54Fantastic. And she is, I didn't know this. I've had her on the podcast many times. Yeah. Ironically, I saw this great speech and I met her husband. She's married to Poland's foreign minister who gave a really powerful speech the other day, essentially saying that if Russian planes are in fact shot down, he hopes that they don't come crying and whining to the UN body. He was very powerful. He was great. That was a great speech. Yeah. I love Anne Applebaum. She's amazing. Yeah, she's very good. But that was a great interview that you did with Fiona Hill. Before we go, Pivot is nominated for a Signal Award for Best Thought Leadership Show.

53:28Scott, we're thought leaders. Yes, that's right. Yes, thought leaders. That's right. We think with our heads, we're thought leaders. That's right. Malcolm Gladwell and Simon Sinek had sex and gave birth to twins. Karen the dog. Yeah, I just saw Malcolm Gladwell. Oddly enough, he said hey. Yeah. You can help us win by voting at the link in the description. The deadline to vote is October 9th. We would like you to stuff the ballot boxes and make us win because we are 23. Yeah. Let's deploy the National Guard to cities. Right. Thank you for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

54:04We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Severio, and Dan Chalon. Nishat Kauras, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great weekend.

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