Mamdani’s Tax List, Zuck's Media Blitz, and SpaceX’s Trillion-Dollar Wipeout

12:15Kara Swisher:And so they're sort of doubling down. What do you make of this? I know Jeffrey Dahmer jokes today, if you don't mind.

12:22Scott Galloway:No, no. It's not like he's buying bottle service after being dumped and trying to pretend everything's okay. Yeah. Yeah. He's, CEOs consistently, consistently try to focus on their reputation, right? And a CEO trying to convince us that AI will empower everyone. It's not marketing, it's preemptive regulation. And I thought it was just so hilarious that he's claimed to be worried about the concentration of power of AI. What he's worried about is it's not concentrating around meta. Mm-hmm. And.

12:52Kara Swisher:I would agree with that, yeah.

12:53Scott Galloway:Well, when one company controls, I think it's 63 % of all or 68 % of all social media, he's worried about the concentration of power. So that comes across as cynical. Companies with the largest distribution will likely be the most successful, and Meta has 3 billion users. That's an unfair advantage if you want to talk about concentration of power. And history highlights that we consistently overestimate the short-term impact of technology and underestimate the long-term impact. So AI will likely disappoint this year, but will likely permanently reshape certain parts of our society and economy over the next decade.

13:31Scott Galloway:And essentially, it feels like every AI ad right now is an attempt at a reputation management campaign. It's not even talking about the products. It's saying, I mean, it's really interesting. They're running their ads saying it'll connect everyone. And then someone who founded one of these companies will say it's a human extinction event on PBS. It's just sort of, well, which is it, guys? Is it going to connect us or is it going to destroy us?

14:02Kara Swisher:Well, I think they're coordinating their talks now. They're like, maybe we should slow down on the doom saying, right? Or maybe we should say open is good because Dario Amodi also noted that there should be open systems. I think what it is is they've got microphones in front of their faces and they've said too much. And now they're trying to pull it back. And so Mark is sort of walking into this breach by saying, I believe it's for everybody, except he's not handing. He did this in the beginning of the, I remember very vividly, a late night phone conversation when he did this long essay, another long essay in desperate need of editing.

14:37Kara Swisher:where he talked about how social media was about community and he wanted to lean into people and that we're all in this together. And I recall asking him, if we're all in it together, why do you control everything? Like, why are you the monarch of Facebook? And he never had a good answer for that. Like, you know, he was like, well, I said, if we're all in it for community, why don't we all share your money? Why don't we all share, if our privacy is being used, why aren't we being paid?

15:03Scott Galloway:We're in this together, Mark.

15:04Kara Swisher:We're in this together. Like, together, I would like some of the money you're using my privacy to sell. Like, I had the same argument with Steve Case many, many years before that. They all are like, we're here for you, but except when it comes to divvying up the goodies or control. And so, it's the same. If you go back to that essay he wrote about social media, none of which came true. It became a very negative force in society, although there are some definite positive aspects, no question. it's weird that he's trying this out again because I think he actually believes he's helping people what you were right I have to say away from all your jokes which they did not like and I feel like ads are not forthcoming in the future is that they should just stick to we're making capitalism and there's going to be a lot of jobs from the things we make or here's vocational training or here's I think they should lean into the stuff that they actually deserve credit for, I suppose.

16:05Scott Galloway:This is not only wasteful advertising, which is everyone's worried about. This hurts. This brings up, this will just inspire a lot of conversations like this one showing just how cynical this is. And reminding people that this is a firm that when social went on mobile, we saw the greatest increase in young adult depression that we've registered since we began tracking it. I mean, it just stirs up a lot of things that are not going to be good for them. So I think this was a real own goal. But just going to the story of, if you will, open AI versus closed AI, open systems usually win. Linux won the cloud.

16:51Scott Galloway:Android won mobile. The internet beat AOL. You were talking about Steve Case. Closed models try to ring fence and maximize profits. open models optimize for adoption, right? And this is how this war is playing out with China. You don't win or beat China by restricting knowledge. You beat China by commercializing it faster. Now, NVIDIA's incentives are obvious. They sell the picks and shovels. The more AI models that exist, the more GPUs they sell. But trying to stop open source AI is like trying to banned calculus. It's just, it's not going to work. But for Zuckerberg to talk about it, it's because he failed trying to ring fence his own AI.

17:38Kara Swisher:Yeah, I would agree. All right, let me do an exercise. Instead of calling Jeffrey Dahmer, if he was sitting in front of you, you obviously aren't going to insult him possibly. Maybe you would. What would you say to him? How should he be messaging this? How should he be marketing this?

17:53Scott Galloway:How should he be messaging around AI or meta?

17:55Kara Swisher:Meta, AI, whatever.

17:57Scott Galloway:At some point, your actions reveal more than your words or an ad campaign from someone hot you want to hang out with who wears black. I fell into that. When Red Envelope in public, I hired all these ad agencies so I could hang around cool people and see ads on bus shelters and have lunch with David Carey at the Condé Nast Cafeteria in New York. His actions are his branding now. I mean, anything Meta does is worth hundreds of millions of dollars in print advertising because it gets reported on and crawled on by a ton of people, including us. The best branding that Mark Zuckerberg could do right now would be for him to age-gate his platform.

18:34Yeah.

18:34Scott Galloway:I think Mark Zuckerberg never intended to hurt children. I don't think that's who he is. Their evil and their mendaciousness is not a function of their malice. It's a function of their indifference and their obfuscation. And they're guilty not of errors of commission, but omission. And they constantly push back and say ridiculous shit like, well, we're worried about 14-year-olds' First Amendment rights. As opposed to saying, look, we make a lot of money from teenagers. And until it's a law, we're going to continue to serve them ads, even if it's extreme dieting.

19:06Kara Swisher:Yeah, I would agree. I did push back. I said, it's really interesting that you would cut all ability to stop really heinous speech about trans and gay people. That's what you did recently. And then you're worried about Scott making a Jeffrey Dahmer joke. Or I noticed there wasn't a real pushback on Michelle Obama as a man. I noticed there wasn't a real pushback by anyone in the GOP on the heinous things that Trump said about this time, any day of the week, but Caitlin Collins. I was like, no one said anything. So, sort of in the vein of what you were talking about with speaking of Ari Emanuel, he did an essay saying this deal should go through.

19:44Kara Swisher:I wrote him back saying, you might point out that because it makes us a banana republic, essentially. He's got money all over this deal. Exactly. I agree with that. But aside from that, it was, I think he does actually believe that there needs to be four strong studios to have a healthy Hollywood system.

20:03Scott Galloway:I think that's fair.

20:03Kara Swisher:I agree with, I completely agree with him. But he was I was like, the reason why the state's attorney generals, all of whom are Democrats, pushed back is because the very first approval, which was the Justice Department, was so tainted with political things. So if you're going to do politics, they're going to do politics. And he was like, but that's not the point that there should be for. I said, yes, but they've wrecked it from day one by being so egregiously political in so many ways that this was the natural. this Democrats are there's a song by the by the chicks which is not ready to make nice and the Democrats are not ready to make nice now and they better get used to this that's my and and Trump started it all by like insulting people and having the GOP stay silent like doing these egregiously cruel things and the same thing with Zuckerberg he's created us he's created a platform where ugliness is far too powerful.

20:58Kara Swisher:And then he's like, why are things so ugly? And you're like, I don't know. Maybe you could have done something. Like you said, the actions. I agree with you. Can I go on about the open source? NVIDIA, SpaceX, Microsoft, and other tech companies have launched an AI safety initiative to develop open source tools for AI safety and cybersecurity. The initiative follows a recent cyber attack involving an open AI agent that breached hugging face during internal testing, raising new concerns about AI security, notably absent from the alliance. Are OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic highlighting the growing divide between supporters of open models and companies building closed systems?

21:33Kara Swisher:This follows Anthropic and OpenAI lobbying Washington for some restrictions on the latest open source models coming out of China. However, Anthropic's Dario Amodi, as I noted, emphasized in a letter this week that the company has never advocated for a ban on open weight models. Like you said, Opener will win, correct, no matter what they do?

21:53Scott Galloway:The honest answer is, or what I think is going to happen, and I said this on our last one, I think the market for AI is bifurcating into a series of frontier models that aren't open source, that are better, and people will pay a premium for them. And I think they'll still be the largest businesses by a dollar volume level. And then the Toyotas and Hondas and Hondas of the world will be the open source coming out of Asia.

22:16Kara Swisher:Yeah, Corolla is a great way to think about it, Toyota Corolla.

22:19Scott Galloway:And there'll be a market for both. But I think the more relevant one are the open weight models. They tend to, in technology, they tend to be the ones that kind of win long term. Now, iOS is, I guess, technically a closed system and Android's open. Android has more users. iOS creates more shareholder value. Right.

22:38Kara Swisher:That's a fair point.

22:40Scott Galloway:But there's huge, I mean, you could argue that Android creates more shareholder value because it informs what is the greatest toll booth in history. You could argue it both ways. I think there's a market for both. I mean, it's so funny, business and technology usually comes down to iOS versus Android. Yeah, it does. And that's what's happening here. It's the frontier models versus the open-weight Chinese models.

23:01Kara Swisher:It's weird they're having this weird beef. It sort of happens all the time, doesn't it? There was so much pushback when Lennox and the others came around. It's always the same. It's always the same.

23:11Scott Galloway:Mark Zuckerberg right now is using basically this corporate Vaseline as Axe body spray. He thinks if he sprays enough on himself, he'll no longer stink. Mark, you fucking reek. You have terrible BO. I just got you another call. I just got you another call, Karen.

23:29Kara Swisher:I tried. I tried. I tried.

23:31Scott Galloway:I smell the ax, but there's something else I smell here. Oh, it's teen depression and self-cutting.

23:37Kara Swisher:All right. And we're out. Okay, I tried. It's polarization of our elections.

23:43Scott Galloway:It's a coarsening of our discourse.

23:45Kara Swisher:I think they have a lot to answer for. Don't say he has BO. There was a lot of BO on the subway this morning, by the way. While we're on the topic of AI, we've been hearing feedback from some of you who have been impacted by data centers in your communities. So we wanted to bring an expert voice. Let's listen to a clip from Evan Halper, a business reporter at The Washington Post, who's been covering data center buildouts and their impacts about how tangible these issues are.

24:08Scott Galloway:This is not propaganda. This is not media misinformation. The backlash is driven by very real concerns in these communities, many of which I've been to. They get all kinds of promises made to them by tech companies that things are going to be run on clean energy. They're going to bring all kinds of jobs into the community. They're not going to have impact on the water, et cetera, et cetera. But what we're seeing on the ground is the impacts are very real. Suddenly, a community that wasn't expecting it, that was rural, has seen the large amount of land rezoned, big power plants getting built. The power plant is big enough to serve a medium-sized American city, all to serve just one data center.

24:45Scott Galloway:It's run on gas. Gas creates public health problems. It creates climate problems. There's backup diesel generators on top of the data center. Those backup diesel generators are major polluters that are supposed to run very infrequently. But now because there's not enough power on the grid, because the data centers need so much, these emergencies get declared and the backup diesel generators get to function even more, often on the lowest air quality days, creating an even bigger air quality problem. So these problems are real. This is not just an imagined thing. This is not political opportunism.

25:17Scott Galloway:These communities are suffering real impacts from these data centers.

25:22Kara Swisher:Yeah, I think, you know, as you said, some of them should be fine if they're done correctly. But they aren't being done. They're running over these areas. And real people are very concerned. They really are. And this is a message that I have been trying to get through to these tech companies. They really do think it's fake. They think it's the media being negative. I've heard this over and over again. By the way, Willie Nelson just spoke out about data centers, saying an AI data center is the last thing his Texas hometown needs. So, again, one of the things is it's the same theme that we're talking about.

25:56Kara Swisher:They have painted themselves into villains, and then they wonder why we think they're villains. And we don't trust them. And, you know, you can talk all you want about trust the media. I agree. People have never trusted the media. But they really don't trust tech companies at this point. And it's a real problem. And doing these ads about humanity is not – you're right. Actions speak louder than words. And these data centers, we are going to suffer as a country if we don't stay ahead in this area. But the way they're introducing data centers is so overwhelmingly feels corrupt, feels bad to the citizens of this country.

26:32Kara Swisher:And I like that they speak up. I do, even if some of them are necessary.

26:37Scott Galloway:Look, I think his comments are powerful. And our nation has a terrible legacy of outsourcing the externalities of progress, whether it's the factory, the coal plant, a chicken processing plant, or a plant that contaminates the water table. We have a habit of putting these in the most vulnerable communities who have the least resources to push back on it. That is nothing new. So, I think it is up to local civic officials, and I think it's great that when the populace speaks up and asks their fiduciaries, elected representatives, to make sure that the upsides—and I do think there's an upside around tax revenue and growth to a data center that's well -planned and well-regulated.

27:24Scott Galloway:I do think there's an upside. It's up to the local civic official to say, is the upside greater than the downside here, or is this a function of me getting money from Meta for my next campaign or just making a stupid decision? I do think it has become, I think a lot of people talking about this are having a knee-jerk reaction around what has become an empty vessel being filled around rage around income inequality and because these individuals have not acquitted themselves. And I think what could fix this is essentially a Facebook ad that says, Facebook, where your parents go to get catfished by AI Jesus.

28:02Scott Galloway:I think that would solve everything.

28:07Scott Galloway:Seriously, Meta putting out fucking ads right now is like trying to put lipstick on a landfill.

28:13Kara Swisher:Okay.

28:17Scott Galloway:Should I stop? At what point should I stop?

28:20Kara Swisher:It's just funny. It's just funny. I'm going to get in there, girl. In any case, it is a real issue here. And I think Evan is speaking exactly. Willie Nelson is speaking to it. You better listen to these people, all you tech companies. You really better. It'll become an issue in the next electoral cycle. 100%. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, SpaceX's trillion-dollar wipeout.

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31:05Scott Galloway:If you'll allow it, I'm going to throw some numbers at you. According to some recent polling from the good people at Pew, about half of Americans now use AI chatbots for something in their lives, whether it's work or personal. That's a dramatic increase from just two years ago when it was more like 30 % of the country. But here's the funny thing. Only 16 % of the country thinks AI will have a positive impact on society. Two-thirds of Americans think AI technology is advancing too quickly. And most Americans, especially young Americans, don't trust AI nor the people in charge of it. And all of this polling was done before an open AI agent went rogue and hacked another company.

31:52Scott Galloway:On Today Explained from Vox, isn't that the thing science fiction warned us about for all those years? Yes. And what can we do about it?

32:08Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. The SpaceX roller coaster continues. The stock plunged more than 20 % below its IPO price this week, wiping out more than$1.2 trillion in market value, roughly the market cap of Tesla. Tesla is also suffering. The stock has bounced back somewhat as of this recording, but it's down 3%. Next week could be another wild ride with SpaceX reporting earnings on Tuesday and the first insider lockup expiring two days later. How low can these shares go? They look like they're headed to$100. I feel like they're going down. But I don't know. I'm not, again, I'm not a stock picker. And again, Elon has enormous power.

32:47Kara Swisher:But it seems like, especially after that interview, he seems insane. Like, it seems people are not memeing him as much.

32:54Scott Galloway:Well, price is what you pay. Value is what you own. And the price that people paid after what was arguably, I think, one of the greatest engineering feats in history between Goldman, JP Morgan and Elon Musk and the NASDAQ 100 and President Trump and the head of the SEC to get this thing out at 120 times revenues. There's a, my son told me this and it just fascinated me. No basketball player has ever been able to be in the air longer than a second. It's really weird for some reason, the unit of measurement of a second, no one can stay in the air for a second. Gravity eventually pulls them down.

33:27Scott Galloway:Valuation is gravity. Eventually, I don't care if it's game stock, no one has been able to defy gravity. No one gets closer to that one second limit than Elon Musk. Hey, look over here. Oh, we're autonomous. Oh, we're robots. Don't value me like a car company. Let's talk about being an interplanetary species. Let's not talk about the fact that it's, you know, it's an interesting company and one great company and not a bunch of money losing companies. The lockup expiration here matters more than earnings. And that is supply. I think any reasonable math shows that supply is going to overwhelm the fundamentals in the short run.

34:02Scott Galloway:And retail investors, and this is what happened at the IPO. retail investors consistently confuse a great company with a great stock and at some point the best company in the world is overvalued and at some point the worst company in the world unless it's going to zero is undervalued but where's i mean i i i'd rather than making a recommendation i tell people what i'm doing i'm not getting near this thing because elon's not afraid to come out and say, I have funding secured at$450 on Twitter and not get punished and run up the stock. He's also, his stocks tend to be meme stocks that totally disassociate.

34:45Kara Swisher:From value.

34:47Scott Galloway:From actual values. So stay the fuck away from this thing. But if you're looking for a bottoms up valuation in terms of comparing this to its competitors and saying it's the best in that space, that bottoms up valuation would put it at like 20 to 30 bucks a share, which by the way, would still make it one of the most valuable companies in tech.

35:07Kara Swisher:Right, yeah. It's down 30%. It was at 201 when its highest has been 201 or 202, really. And now it's at 113. If it crosses that$100 barrier, I would worry. You know what I mean? I think I would worry of where it was going 100%. And I would. And same thing with Tesla. They seem like that, right, today it's on a real decline. But over the past six months, it's dropped. If you look at anything, the past month, it's dropped like a, like a, like it's credibly, it's down to 302. It probably will pass$300 barrier. And those are, those are mental things for people. You know, I think they're mental things for people.

35:51Kara Swisher:And, and again, valuation may be making a, making a very strong return here. And Elon's various, you know, jazz hands is not seeming to work here. I don't know what he could do to, well, he could have results. Well, he's, okay, but even to look at the glasses half empty, the fact they were able to engineer such an incredible valuation out of the gates gives some people the impression that it's cheap now. Yeah.

36:18Scott Galloway:If it went public at this valuation, we'd all be like, Jesus Christ, can you believe this?

36:23Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're right.

36:23Scott Galloway:So, look, the IPO was a win for him, even if, no matter what you say, even if it's down and it's technically a broken IPO now, the fact that he was able to put that number on this set of assets is nothing short of remarkable. And also, a lot of the people who he has said finance a$44 billion purchase of a microblogging platform that I signed the paperwork under probably some sort of drug-infused haze that by most measures is worth$3 to$5 billion. He said to his investors, just hold on. Trust me. I always make you whole. And you know what? He did. He probably gave those same people. Those are probably many of the same people who have invested along the way in SpaceX.

37:08Scott Galloway:And quite frankly, they're not subject to lockups.

37:11Kara Swisher:When you got in at 20, it sounds great. Like 100 is great. 200 is better, but 100 is great too.

37:16Scott Galloway:Yeah, but I had lunch with a guy here in L.A. who's this really charming, smart, intelligent guy who's what I would call totally agnostic about all this stuff. And he's known Elon for a long time, and he's invested in everything Elon does. And so when he started investing in SpaceX like 10, 12 years ago, someone just told me he's made$5 billion.

37:38Kara Swisher:Yeah.

37:39Scott Galloway:And regardless of what you think of Elon's paranoid white nationalist rant on with the head of The Economist and calling her a traitor because she asks him tough questions, if someone makes you that wealthy and if someone is able to create that kind of value, you just put money into anything they do.

37:58Kara Swisher:Right.

37:58Scott Galloway:And so, you know, his ability to do that, I mean, there's a lot of positives. It's a huge win for him. I do think there's positives for the economy. But in terms of any bottoms of valuation, forget that it was a 204. Just look at it now, and you would, in the absence of any history, you would go, this thing is the most overvalued stock in America right now.

38:19Kara Swisher:Right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, speaking of a very valuable stock, Apple briefly hit a$5 trillion market cap for the first time a day after passing NVIDIA to become the most valuable public company. It's a busy week for Apple. The company is launching a new program for customers to lease iPhones, iPads, Macs, and Apple Watches instead of buying them outright. This was interesting. The program called Apple Upgrade uses buy now, pay later company Klarna to let people make monthly payments on the device and upgrade, buy, or return when the lease ends. The cheapest iPhone option is$17.99 a month. Apple's move comes a month after the company raised prices on iPads and Macs, citing skyrocketing chip costs.

38:55Kara Swisher:iPhone prices are expected to rise later this year. Do you like this idea? I didn't know what you would think of it. And I also note we're recording ahead of Apple's reporting the Q3 earnings, Tim Cook's final earnings as a CEO. And whatever we think of his stupid golden statue, he has done an astonishing job here as CEO in the years after Steve Jobs died. What an impressive CEO he's been except for the golden statue, which will follow him the rest of his days and going to the Melania premiere. But go ahead.

39:24Scott Galloway:I don't know who the head of strategy is at Apple, but I think this group of people, this man or woman, are literally some of the brightest people in the history of business. And whether it was taking$6 billion out of broadcast advertising and moving it into 550 temples of the brand in a market, one of the biggest markets in the world, technology, that had just shitty distribution. Remember we used to go to buy computers? Egghead, CompUSA.

39:48Kara Swisher:Egghead, CompUSA. Oh, CompUSA.

39:50Scott Galloway:You literally walked in and or where you go to get your computer fixed, there'd be some guy in a Harley Davidson shirt and he'd give you a number and put it on a steel rack and tell you to come back in two weeks. So he could tell you it doesn't work and you need to buy a new computer. And then they built these places. I'd like to live in an Apple store. I think if Apple owned or opened a coffee counter in their stores, it'd be the most successful retail in the world per square foot. And it already is. It surpassed Tiffany when they opened their stores. Most successful retailer in history is a tech company.

40:19Scott Galloway:In addition, their stock, okay, you want to talk about genius? Genius is not only what to do, it's what not to do. Who has invested the least in big tech and AI?

40:32Kara Swisher:Warren Buffett? I don't know.

40:34Scott Galloway:Apple. Apple, yeah. Apple's decided, okay, kids, you go play in traffic. We'll wait till this all gets sorted out after trillions of dollars in CapEx. and then we'll move in with an elegant interface and ownership of the consumer and we'll monetize it or we'll just rent it from you and give you access to the billion wealthiest consumers in the world. Apple stock, it's no accident that the company, the one company that's decided not to get into these AI wars is up 61 % over the last 12 months. The most valuable company in the world is up 61 % over the last 12 months. These guys, and this is what separates the truly, the great CEOs from the iconic CEOs.

41:22Scott Galloway:It's not what they do. It's what they don't do.

41:24Kara Swisher:So what do you think of this upgrade then? What do you think of this? I think it's actually a good idea.

41:29Scott Galloway:Oh, I'm sorry. Long-winded preamble. This is fucking genius because the reason why hardware companies and services companies don't trade at the same multiple of software companies is not because software is just, quote unquote, a better product. It's because it's a better business model because it's recurring revenue. Adobe changed everything. Adobe used to sell, I forget what it was called, Director, whatever, software in a box for$2 ,500. And then they hope three years later you go buy another one for$2 ,400. And instead they said, we're going to charge you$25 a month. And their stock got cut in half.

42:03Scott Galloway:And since then it's up 40x because the market loves recurring revenue. You can better plan your CapEx. You can better plan your revenues. It's just more, the way I described, I was in a relationship with someone who was bipolar. And I said, I'm in a relationship with a transactional business model. I don't know who I'm waking up next to. I don't know how to predict this person. A recurring revenue business is being in a relationship with someone who's just totally consistent. And you know what to expect.

42:31Kara Swisher:But no, you don't always like, you often decry buy now, pay later.

42:35Scott Galloway:Yeah, but that buy now, pay later is - This is different. Buy now, pay later. As you come up to the till at Urban Outfitters and you're going to Coachella and they go, you know what? Go shop and buy another$300 and we'll give you instant credit. I think that's different than this. This is basically selling a subscription to the Apple ecosystem.

42:51Kara Swisher:I would agree. It's hardware as a service. It's HASS.

42:54Scott Galloway:And people, it's easier to say I'm not going to buy the next iPhone versus I'm going to cancel my subscription. It increases lifetime customer value and it lowers the psychological barrier to higher prices. So I believe, I've just presented, I'm bragging, I just presented to the CEO and the management team of Mercedes. And I basically said, the future of consumer products isn't ownership, it's recurring revenue, it's subscription. And they asked me for one idea and I said, I love the Mercedes brand. I think it's, they do great products, love the brand. I want to pay a monthly fee and have you just show up with the car I should have, take care of everything, service it when I'm out of town, know everything about me.

43:35Scott Galloway:Maybe you'd invite me to a cool couple of events. Say, okay, you've had this thing three years. You just had a kid. You need a truck now. And take all of the decisions, all of the brain damage. I never want to go into a car dealership again and give me a good deal. I don't want to negotiate price. By the way, include insurance. Include finance. Just do everything for me and charge me a monthly fee.

43:55Kara Swisher:It might be slightly more. It might be slightly more, but you don't care because it's the convenience factor. I'm doing this. I have to say I had never – I have not bought a new phone, and I was going to buy another one, I'm like, oh, it's$1 ,000. It probably will cost me more, but I can always upgrade it. Like, I feel, like, good about it. I know it sounds, I feel that I just want to rent it. I just want to rent it, really, in many ways. If Apple said to you and me, all right, Scott, you buy everything Apple.

44:22Scott Galloway:We have your purchase history. With your permission, we want to use AI to know exactly what you need, when you need it. We're going to charge you$100,$200,$300 a month, and you're going to get everything a month early. And by the way, in case you're interested, you can come to the cool Apple event or whatever if you're really that big a fan. Oh, and by the way, we're going to invite you occasionally to a premiere of a great Apple movie. You're going to become, and it's$300 a month. And I think, oh,$300 a month? I spent so much on these for our$200. I spent so much. We're going to send you the latest MacBook.

44:54Scott Galloway:We're going to send you the coolest AirPods. We see you're an AirPod weirdo and you love these things. We're going to send them with your name inscribed.

45:00Kara Swisher:You want a hat. You want a T-shirt. Cool T-shirt. Whatever it is.

45:02Scott Galloway:I'm in. And then the market turns around and it says, okay, my first company, Profit Brand Strategy, was a strategy firm. It sold for 2.8 times revenues. I started the same business called L2, basically helping firms make better decisions with data, but I charged an annual membership fee. I charged Nike a half a million dollars a year instead of charging them a million dollars every three years for a strategy engagement. L2 got sold for eight times revenues. The market loves recurring revenues, and Apple keeps figuring out big decisions and ways to not only be the most valuable company in the world, but to provide unbelievable return on investment.

45:42Scott Galloway:I'm just, I'm so impressed, not with what they do, but what they don't do. Do you remember how many people were calling for Apple to launch new products, launch a car? You know what it takes big balls? Not to launch a car, but to pull the plug on a car because you don't think it's going to offer the same return on invested capital as other projects.

46:00Kara Swisher:Yeah, absolutely.

46:01Scott Galloway:I'm very impressed with Apple.

46:02Kara Swisher:I agree. I agree. I actually had just a funny little basket of tech stocks with$10 ,000 and Apple just, I was losing money on a bunch of them. I'm just testing things. And Apple has taken me back. I was like, thank you, Apple. Just interesting things we talk about is just sort of a test thing. And I do thank them. I'm going to do this program. I am. It's just easier. It's just easier. It's just easier and more convenient. And it also lets people who want to have an Apple phone and can't afford the$1 ,000 to be part of it, like in a way that's much more, you know, it sort of gets them to the lower price customer.

46:39Kara Swisher:I do think this happens. And it doesn't break these customers the way, say, like a ridiculous mortgage or something would do, and it gives them a better phone. All right. Let's go on a quick break. But just before we go on a quick break, I do have another tagline for Facebook. Okay.

46:54Scott Galloway:You ready? Meta. Meta. Ignore the smell coming from the basement.

47:03Kara Swisher:I shouldn't have said anything. Oh, God. God, this show brings me so much joy. I know it does.

47:11Scott Galloway:All I'm doing is I'm addicted to the meth and I'm shitposting the dealer. I'm allowed to do that. Okay. Okay.

47:17Kara Swisher:When we come back, Mitch McConnell gets an ultimatum.

47:24Scott Galloway:What's the best way to think about age in politics?

47:28Kara Swisher:You don't want to be ageist, right? I do think term limits are more important than age limits. Some old people are really sharp. Bernie Sanders is popping off and he's like, what, 2000? I'm so fed up with the fact that most of our lawmakers are so old.

47:44Scott Galloway:The gerontocracy feels like a huge problem in American politics. We're now in our third oldest Congress in history. So why won't the boomers retire? I gave serious consideration last year to not run again. I asked 17-term Congressman Jim Clyburn that exact question. And I kept being asked, how do you feel? Clyburn, who turned 86 just this week, is running for re-election in South Carolina again. And I kept answering, I feel fine. And they said, well, then why would you quit? This week on America Actually, Congressman Clyburn makes the case for experience and the establishment.

48:32Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear is giving Senator Mitch McConnell an ultimatum, prove you can still serve or resign. Beshear sent McConnell a letter this week demanding he directly and verbally address the people of Kentucky to prove his capacity to serve. If that doesn't happen, Bashir is urging Senate Majority Leader John Thune to investigate McConnell's condition. This comes as McConnell's office released another photo that, again, sparked conspiracy theories because of the shirt or something. But the statement, the center is not medically cleared to leave his rehab facility.

49:02Kara Swisher:It was very, I have to say, the note was very, what it left out, speaking of omission, it didn't talk about cognitive issues. It just talked about physical issues, which was interesting. The doctor tried his best to tell the truth, is what I, when I looked at it. But it's not enough for Bashir. Let's listen to what he told reporters on Tuesday.

49:24Scott Galloway:All I'm asking for, and the people of Kentucky are asking for, is transparency and honesty that Senator McConnell still has the capacity to serve. And I hope he does. I wish him well. I hope his health is improving. But if he can have a 17-minute conversation with his protege, he can call into any of your news stations for three. All we're asking is just a little bit of proof. And I get that everybody wants a certain level of privacy, but when you run for these jobs, you know you're given some of that up. We have seen rampant speculation across social media and elsewhere. It could all be fully avoided, and it's all within Senator McConnell's power.

50:00Kara Swisher:So under Kentucky law, Senate vacancies are filled by a special election. Bashir is not allowed to appoint a temporary replacement. It's also important for his presidential run for him to look strong here. That's what it's playing into. Is this a strongly worded letter going to do anything here? Because that's what it is. I urge you to say something. Or will they just ignore it? I would assume McConnell, who has always been sort of taking the lowest road he could in many ways, although Trump has managed to get on lower roads than he is. I think they'll do nothing. They'll just ignore this.

50:36Scott Galloway:I don't know. I think the pressure will mount. I mean, I feel like Mitch McConnell has become the modern-day equivalent of Bigfoot. Like, oh, wait, we saw him. It's not real. And look, this is – America has mandatory retirement ages for airline pilots, but not for people making decisions about nuclear weapons and fiscal policy, which is just insane. And this is an example of it. And this story really isn't about Senator McConnell. It's about a political system that has no graceful exit for aging leaders. And every institution, especially democracy, needs succession planning. And politicians are some of the few people that are allowed to ignore mortality and biology.

51:20Scott Galloway:And just another shout out to Apple and Tim Cook. Again, one of the hardest things in leadership isn't knowing when to take over. it's knowing when to leave. And it's insane that these people, when you get older, we purposefully have a difficult time believing that we're ever going to die. We know it, but we don't believe it. And that is, we think, oh, I'll figure it out, and I'm still adding value. And also, to be blunt, for a lot of these people who have devoted their lives to work, them leaving is them acknowledging they're about to die. And so they don't want to leave. And they They keep coming up with reasons why they should stay.

51:58Scott Galloway:The political system rewards incumbency.

52:00Kara Swisher:I know.

52:01Scott Galloway:And so we need mandatory retirement ages and term limits.

52:07Kara Swisher:Well, one of the things that's been interesting about it, besides the social media stuff, which some of it is very funny, some of the fake things, it's been a very amusing, people doing things around McConnell. And actually, I was at Joanna Coles and Ben Sherwood last night at dinner, and they were saying the McConnell stuff really is popular. Like, I was surprised. I thought it would be all Trump or whatever, but McConnell stuff is really popular on the Daily Beast. But what's interesting is some things that I think are more serious where people are going, okay, I had a cesarean and I had to get back to work in five seconds.

52:42Kara Swisher:It's like, you know, I had I was out for a medical thing and my work didn't let me. And I think even if it's like kind of like that to me is actually very resonant is like he gets to be quiet. He has one of the most important jobs in the country and he gets as much time off as he wants it. He doesn't have to explain himself. I have like a minor thing that requires a lot of medical attention and I've got to get back to work. There is something brewing. It's like the data centers. I feel like there's sort of this anger, like, why does this guy get to have privacy when I have to get back to work immediately?

53:18Kara Swisher:I've seen a ton of that lately, and I think it's people, it's a very good—

53:22Scott Galloway:It's another vessel. Mitch McConnell is another empty vessel for rage. And people look—I think the most secretive thing in the world right now would be if all of a sudden everyone over the age of 70 had to announce their retirement, would the world be a better place? Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump are too old to be serving. They're too old. And yeah, you need wisdom. But more than that, you need rigorous critical thinking and energy. And also, you need a fresh, creative dynamism. The best thing, in my opinion, that the far left that we talk a lot about, they are bringing the creativity and the dynamism.

54:04Scott Galloway:You need that. You need turnover. And it's the same. This is why I think we're going to win the seat in Maine, or when I say we Democrats. I think people are going to see. At some point, Susan McConnell seems to be hiding in Mitch McConnell's hospital bathroom.

54:25Kara Swisher:It's not Susan McConnell.

54:26Scott Galloway:I'm sorry, Susan Collins.

54:28Kara Swisher:You can call her Susan McConnell.

54:29Scott Galloway:It might as well be Susan McConnell. I get the sense she's in the room next door. I mean, she's an old lady, and she presents as even older.

54:38Kara Swisher:Yeah.

54:38Scott Galloway:And aging comes for all of us. It comes for all of us. It's not an indictment. It's a reality. And I think that's why we're going to win the seat. We found a guy with chest hair who doesn't appear to be a rapist, and he's not 105. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

54:57Kara Swisher:But it is a proxy. It is a proxy of like, why don't we know about the president's health? All of them. Like, why don't we get, why do they get off? Why, why do they get to build data centers and we have to put up with it? Why do we have, why do they get all the money? Why do they get all the deals? There is a, it's part of the same, like, you're getting, these people are fucking you. And I do think it's, I think it could take very ugly turns as it, I agree, Mamdani should not have done that. It takes ugly turns instead of, yeah, why not? Why can't we get our fair share? And I think it's a very good, I think it's a very good, fair share is a very good way to talk about it.

55:36Kara Swisher:And why does Mitch McConnell get to be quiet? Why does he precisely? I don't care about his privacy. He shouldn't have been the majority leader or whatever.

55:44Scott Galloway:That's like saying a 65-year-old pilot can't be tested for cognitive ability or reflexes because of his privacy.

55:52Kara Swisher:Yeah, exactly. Same thing. I feel like I said this to a public official. They were giving me a hard time. I go, you know what? You work for me. Like, sorry. I know you've forgotten that. But the fact of the matter is you work for the public. And we don't have to be nice about it. There's just a brewing thing. And it could go in a really ugly direction. I wish it wouldn't if these people would just – he should resign. He's clearly not able to do his job. He should resign.

56:19Scott Galloway:Well, this is all – isn't this like they're trying to hold out such that the governor doesn't get to appoint it? It's the Republican –

56:28Kara Swisher:No, I don't think there's – I think he's not there, so he doesn't vote. So great. Let him sit there. And he doesn't get to vote. He doesn't – the vote is gone in the Senate right now is what it is. The vote is gone. If he tries to vote, he better walk in. That's all, you know, if he tries to vote or anything else.

56:46Scott Galloway:No, I meant in terms of who's his replacement, who gets to decide when he dies.

56:51Kara Swisher:I think it doesn't matter at this point. Doesn't? Okay. No, I think it's just a point. And I think Bashir's presidential election is going to hinge a little bit on this. I'm sure he doesn't love it. But if I were him, I'd show up at the hospital. I would. For the people of the state. I'm here representing as the governor of the state. I want to see how you are and assess your ability to do your job for the people of the state. That's what I would do. He won't do it, but that's what I would do. And then just get turned away. And get turned away, even if he did it. It's a pretty good stunt. Anyway, one more quick break.

57:27Kara Swisher:We'll be back for predictions.

57:36Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction and try not to make an insult to Mark Zuckerberg if you can.

57:42Scott Galloway:It's really, yeah, no, it's totally inappropriate what I've been saying. My prediction is that this ridiculous notion that one of the most corrupt organizations is going to get financing from a crime family, the Trump family, to take FIFA private. and or turn it into a public company. This won't happen, or it's going to get watered down beyond recognition. And here's why.

58:05Kara Swisher:It's a$20 billion. It's a$20 billion company.

58:10Scott Galloway:UEFA has already fired an opening shot, and they have, and they effectively have veto power. I'm not just saying this because of what I want to see happening. I think just if you look at the industrial logic here, the mechanics, this isn't going to happen. The bottom line is the World Cup is not FIFA's to sell. And UEFA, the governing body, has already said, none of us are the owners of football. That's not a press release. That's the body that controls the Champions League, FIFA's most credible commercial threat, declaring war on day one. And there's also a precedent in 2018. Infantino tried the exact move of SoftBank's Saudi money at$25 billion, and UEFA killed it because they saw it as a threat to their own prize assets.

58:50Scott Galloway:So this is the same playbook, same opponent, and same likely outcome. He's you know, he's already tried this and he's 0 for 1 in the exact same context. And 211 members have to say yes. And FIFA is already trying to buy their votes with cash, not consensus. You know, and also the Kushner connection makes this whole thing radioactive, just not, you know, not just controversial. Kushner is even less popular. Have you seen what's happened at this Albanian island that Ivanka decided was just magical?

59:18Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah. The Albanians are not having it.

59:21Scott Galloway:Trump's son-in-law running the money side of the World Cup right after Trump and Infantino stood together at the final, after Infantino gave him a peace prize. It's a conflict of interest story that writes itself for every journalist and every rival federation looking for a reason to vote no. Anyways, this isn't – FIFA doesn't need the money.

59:43Kara Swisher:By the way, it's Josh Kushner's investment vehicle.

59:46Scott Galloway:Right, it's the one who's going to finance it. Look, they're trying to monetize what is this global asset of goodwill.

59:51Kara Swisher:They are separate, just so you're aware. They're separate.

59:53Scott Galloway:But go ahead. So anyways, my prediction, this thing gets rebranded or negotiated or shrunk to a much smaller Kushner optics scrub version before September 19th. Because Infantino keeps proposing commercialization deals that die the moment a rival confederation smells a threat to its own assets. There are competing assets here. So he'll probably get some increased member payouts. But he won't get FIFA. He won't get kind of a privatized World Cup. The soccer, you want to talk about an asset that the world believes they have a vested ownership in?

1:00:29Kara Swisher:Everybody does, yeah. So I just— It's the same themes we've been talking about.

1:00:33Scott Galloway:This is going to be more—you want to see the emotion of data centers times eight. By the way, speaking of which, I'm going on Bill Maher today or whenever this thing's released. And you know who the upfront interview is? Who? Erin Brockovich.

1:00:49Kara Swisher:Oh, yeah. She's coming on my podcast in two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. She's doing the data center stuff.

1:00:54Scott Galloway:So that'll make for an interesting conversation.

1:00:59Kara Swisher:She's actually galvanized a lot of people, which is interesting. Let me just read something from a story in Politico that Infantino's political future may be on the U.S. midterm ballot. There's a lot of Democrats waiting to pounce here because it's such a popular thing. He's, of course, this says, If control of Congress flips in the fall, those same ties could become a political liability for Infantino as he seeks re-election atop the Swiss-based nonprofit he has led for a decade. Listen to this quote. The perfect storm scenario in the FIFA world, said one person involved in the highest levels of global soccer, granted anonymity to discuss sensitive internal politics.

1:01:34Kara Swisher:I think they will find a candidate to run against him, especially if midterms slip control and if things were to start pouring out. But a lot needs to happen in the next three or four months. I think he's reached too far.

1:01:45Scott Galloway:Actually, you know what? That would have been a better prediction because his rival competing for the top spot will just attach him to Trump, who's even less popular overseas than he is domestically.

1:01:55Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah. That would have been a better prediction.

1:01:57Scott Galloway:That would have been more elegant.

1:01:58Kara Swisher:Anyway, I'm excited to listen to you on Bill Maher, by the way.

1:02:01Scott Galloway:Oh, thanks.

1:02:01Kara Swisher:Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Make sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week.

1:02:18Scott Galloway:Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Saverio, and Dan Shallon. Dishakrurwa is Fox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Fox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great weekend. You