Meta’s Massive Settlement, Bill Gates’ AI Warning, and Remembering Dolly Parton

19:20I'm not sure if it'll have an impact, but I think it shows how much people are grasping for something that does unite people and that does give people hope and enthusiasm and optimism and just something that everyone can love. and no one has to complain or criticize or argue or, you know, avoid the subject with people they love because they don't want to get an argument. It really showed that we are grasping for something like that, that is hopeful and bright and nice. And, you know, I mean, we do so much politics on my show. For my team, who is amazing last night, to just go through all these archives of Larry King interviews and old clips of her, I think, like, the way we described it after the show was we were like, that was soul cleansing.

19:59Like, it was so nice to have this moment of no arguments, no nothing. It was just everyone talking about Dolly.

20:06Kara Swisher:And they don't go after her. I have to say, one of the things, she did a lot of very liberal stances on a lot of these issues that are now such hot-button issues. You don't see criticism of her. You never see it. Like, they never touch her. It's really an interesting, and they will not now, obviously, because she's saint-like. I love Jack White said, instant sainthood for Dolly. Instant. Instant. Why not? Anyway, we love Dolly. What would Dolly do? This is what I'm going to do the rest. And I recommend the PBS documentary, Here I Am. It's just really wonderful. And she really was an amazing and many songwriter.

20:39Kara Swisher:She was innovative and she was an entrepreneur. That is something you have to think about when you think about her. Not just because she came from modest means, but because of that. And the last thing I would say is people don't realize this. My family's from West Virginia, and so they loved her. That's one of the ways I got in touch with country music very early or bluegrass. How great is that? Yeah, my grandparents grew up in such a shack, in such a place in rural West Virginia. So just everything about her is fantastic. Anyway, let's move on. Meta has agreed to pay. This has just happened, Caitlin.

21:11Kara Swisher:Nearly$17 billion to settle a major federal case brought by 29 states over allegations that Facebook and Instagram harmed children's mental health. The deal also requires major changes to Meta's apps, including daily time limits, nighttime blocks for teens, and stronger age verification measures. The settlement comes in the second week of a high-stakes trial in California where states accuse Metta of misleading the public about risks to young users. Any thoughts on this? You and I talk about this a lot. I thought it was, I think you don't place, several people are like, oh, it's peanuts. It's not peanuts, guys.

21:44Kara Swisher:This is a big deal. I know it's not enough, and everyone had pretended it was$1.4 trillion. That was never going to be a settlement. Maybe$100 million,$200 million might have happened in a jury trial. But this is real money and hopefully real changes. So this is, of course, led by Rob Bonta, who's also doing the Paramount deal. I know you talked to him recently, leading the cases for the attorney generals. But talk a little bit about this, because this is a point where, first of all, state's attorney generals are the ones doing legislation here, finally getting these changes when the federal government, both Democrats and Republicans, have done nothing at the federal level.

22:21Yeah, and I think sometimes when you see those lawsuits, you kind of wonder if it's going to go anywhere. And I mean, this settlement today speaks to that. And, you know, my questions were, one, it seems like the changes, obviously they're directed at children, and that has been the focus of this, is that it will affect all users potentially in terms of what they're changing. As it should, yeah. And, you know, what that, you know, the nighttime activity, you know, how long you're on there during the day. And I think the second question that I had looking at this was, you know, obviously they chose to settle.

22:47Maybe they saw the writing on the wall and they didn't think it was going to go well for them. And is it the first of many? Yes. Are we going to see more of this just because this has happened here? Because, I mean, there's so many other cases that are happening.

22:58Kara Swisher:Yeah, I think what it says is if you push back hard enough, these, let me just say, I'm glad they settled. I'm glad they're doing these things. And someone from Facebook sent this to me. It's a two-hour daily time limit, turning off access to our apps at night as a default, no notification during school hours, clear prompts and notifications for teens every 15 minutes of continuous screen time, new parental supervision controls so parents can decide how their teens use the app. So these are all things that are great. These are also things that should have been there a long time ago. I also, I kind of, you know, it's great for kids, and I think that we should have it.

23:31I mean, I think about my nephews who are not yet into this era yet, and it's terrifying because they're so pure and perfect and happy, and you don't want that to be corrupted. I also think it should happen maybe for people who are 65 plus, because I think a lot of people's parents are online way too much. And sometimes I talk to my own parents and I'm like, wait, what? Like, what did you see? Or what did you like that? That's AI. That's not even real. Or that's not, you know, there's videos of me being used. And so I don't actually think it should only apply to children. No, no, no. I think that adults need this too.

24:01Kara Swisher:Yeah, there's going to be more cases like that. I think it's just easier for people to, speaking of, agree. Like Marsha Blackburn agrees with, you know, someone on the left on this topic, right? Unless she wants to be governor and then she changes a little bit. But, you know, it's a really, it's a big issue for everyone. And I think it's, you know, actually, I'm working on a new book, and it's about a digital bill of rights. Like, what should we all have going forward? And this is the beginning, not the end of this. And as much as people don't want a settlement, going to trial, Facebook has unlimited options of suing and suing, like appealing and appealing and appealing.

24:35Kara Swisher:And this would have taken years to get these things that need to happen on the ground, right, initially for kids. And others will follow. That's also the other companies will follow. I mean, they're the biggest one, obviously, but it will start to set limits of what we want. Again, the government should have done this. So should Facebook many years ago, but they didn't. And so that's one of the things. And it will not end what's happening here, which is an absolute trend, which you're seeing, again, politically, Caitlin. I mean, you're seeing you've written, we've talked a lot about on the show about these data centers, which to me is a proxy.

25:11Kara Swisher:How important is it the people you interview? Because, look, Mike Rogers changed. Abbott changed. Vivek Ramaswamy changed. What do you think the impact is going to have? I mean, not only did they change, it was a full 180. Yes. And so, you know, we are. One might call that a lie, but go ahead. Well, and I think, you know, some of the Democratic candidates who are running, you know, we had Gina Hinojosa, who's running against Abbott on the other night. And she was saying, well, let's see if this is real, because I think if he wins reelection, and obviously this is his opponent speaking, but she said that she thought maybe he'd change back his stance given where he was just a year ago.

25:47And I think it's incredible because speaking of crossover again, which obviously is like the dominant theme here, this is something that people on the far right and the very progressive left seem to agree on, which is this hesitancy at best and a full out opposition at worst for these companies against these data centers being built in their communities with no say so, no transparency they feel on their behalf of what's happening. And we had seen these, you know, Republicans in most cases ushering in these giants to their states to, you know, take over this. And, you know, without regard, it seems like whether or not these small communities where they're being built can keep up with, you know, what that would require and entail for resources.

26:29But I mean, with, you know, Kathy Hochul imposing her moratorium, the response to that, but seeing how it is now starting to take shape and everyone is kind of shifting to this, with the exception of people like President Trump. He says it's a mistake.

26:43Kara Swisher:So tell me that I was going to say that. Why? How come he's sticking to his guns? I mean, oddly enough, you kind of have to respect him for that. He's going to go he's all in on AI and his whole administration is based on the bear hug that he gave to these AI people. But he's not backing down and probably will hurt other candidates, presumably. Well, there's a lot of Republican districts where this has become a huge issue or even I mean, obviously, we were talking about the Republican Senate seat in Ohio the other night in terms of where this stands. And so Trump is someone who has often been praised over the last decade for being so in touch with his political instincts, his base.

27:18This is an area where it doesn't seem to be the case because there is so much concern and skepticism about this. And so, I mean, I think the question is, do we get on the other side of the midterm elections this November? And this is actually a way bigger issue than people anticipated in terms of, you know, as you and I were talking about the other night, real grassroots opposition to this. It's not, you know, Michael Watley in North Carolina was saying that it's all basically ginned up and that it's being driven by outside forces. But as you were saying, that's not the case.

27:49Kara Swisher:Well, that was Kevin O 'Leary in Utah. It's just moronic. It's ironic to call these people Chinese communist patsies. I mean, honestly, it was so weird. And when Watley did that, I'm like, you, sir, first of all, it's untrue. And second of all, you're obviously not talking to your constituents because you need to talk to these people because all kinds of people are concerned. It'll be interesting to see what Trump does after if this proves to be a big deal because it's about economics, really. The data centers are about economics. not about, well, it is about AI. It is. And speaking of which, Bill Gates is sounding the alarm on AI.

28:26Kara Swisher:Just when tech leaders wanted to pull back on the doom scrolling and the doom saying that we're going to kill all your jobs, in a nearly 6 ,000-word essay on his website, Gates warns the transition to this new AI era will be one of the most turbulent times in human history, and we're not prepared for it. Gates is proposing solutions, including taxes on AI tokens and bots and reserving certain jobs for humans. He's also urging countries to collaborate on regulations specifically for the U.S. and China to work together. He's absolutely right. Bill Gates did acknowledge to the Washington Post that people might dismiss his views given his ties to Jeffrey Epstein.

28:57Kara Swisher:He again called his interactions with Epstein a very bad mistake. It was indeed a very bad mistake, Bill. I also told him that. Talk about this because it's really, it's an interesting thing because the tech leaders have been trying to pull back. And again, Trump is not pulling back on this, right? Not pulling back on this issue and has been best friend to AI essentially throughout this administration. including at the very beginning, putting them in the front row. And I'll just also note MIT just put out a report recommending a fundamental rethink of higher education in the age of AI, calling for redesigned assessments, more hands-on learning, and course-specific rules for AI use, because AI can now do all the undergraduate courses in like four seconds, which is really amazing.

29:38Kara Swisher:So talk about this as a political issue, because one of the things that's important is there hasn't been much. Is there any plus in doing it, doing stuff around what Gates is talking about? I mean, talk about a holy shit moment. As you're reading that, it's like the call is coming from inside the house because he's saying, hi, I'm one of these industry leaders. And I'm saying that not only are my colleagues completely downplaying the concerns over this because they want to make more money. He's saying this idea that we're going to self-regulate is just not even close to having a grasp on reality.

30:13I mean, to hear that from him should be alarming to everyone. And, you know, it made me think back to every time we have Bernie Sanders on the show, which is maybe once every couple of weeks, we always talk about AI with him. And he always says he's beating the drum on it. And he's saying, you know, no one's paying attention to this. It is going to wipe out the job force that people do not understand the impact it's going to have. And by the time we do, it's going to be too late. And so he's basically arguing in a different way than what Bill Gates is saying here, but arguing the same message.

30:40And so for Bill Gates to say, you know, my colleagues are not going to be the ones who are going to step up and handle this. And going back to the meta lawsuit that we're just talking about, I mean, we've seen what's happened before when they are the ones who are expected to be in charge of the guidelines and the guardrails.

30:57Kara Swisher:Yeah, it's the Fox Guardian House. They have no interest in regulation whatsoever unless it's to their advantage or a big, fat, pretty contract with the Department of Defense on AI or something like that. Okay, but then the other question is, okay, so is it up to Congress or Washington? Because we interview those people every day. And yes, Bernie Sanders is the one leading the charge on this from, you know, the people that we have on the show. But this idea that they're going to understand what they're doing and be able to do it, like, I don't have a lot of confidence in that. All right, but do they understand how planes fly?

31:28Kara Swisher:Do they need to? We were able to manage to have many car regulations. See, to me, that's always the excuse. But it was slower, I think. That's what Bill Gates is saying is he's talking about the farming transition, you know, with agricultural revolution and industrialization is it happened over generations and people had time to adjust. And he's saying, I mean, what I found one of the most alarming things in here was he was saying, we don't have time for that basically here. That's not going to happen in the same way. Yeah, well, I don't know. I feel like they can do it. They haven't tried in any way whatsoever.

31:58Kara Swisher:And they've been captive. And again, I wonder if Trump's embrace of them is going to have a real effect on the elections. I mean, of all the things, where would you rank tech being in that list? Of, like, voters' concerns? Yeah. I mean, I think in rural areas, the data center's backlash, the FLOT camera's backlash is becoming more and more of a thing. The FLOT. This is police who are taking pictures of people. Yeah, the AI readers of, like, the license plates. I mean, and, you know, I've seen, obviously, people responding to the data centers, people saying that's not well-founded, or maybe we just aren't being transparent enough about this.

32:32Or as Greg Abbott was saying, you know, they dug their own grave by not being more forthright and honest about what was happening and what people should expect. I think that could end up being a big thing. I think obviously the economy and inflation, but they're all kind of tied together, you know, because it's making people think about what they have money for, what they can afford, where they're stretched thin. And then, you know, these tech giants are building these data centers in their backyards and affecting resources and water is their main concern. And I think that's, you know, it's all kind of intertwined.

33:01Kara Swisher:How do you think about AI? What do you do? How do you use it? Because there was this controversy over this guy who was insulting Scott Besson, a very famous investor. He used AI for this Wall Street Journal. Yeah, his mentor. His mentor, right, exactly. Well, I think Scott Bresnitz has been soiling himself for months now, but that's just my opinion. How do you look at it yourself when you think about its use in your life or in your reporting or how you cover things? You know, and the part of Bill Gates' thing that I thought resonated was he was talking about all these ways that it could be helpful to people and not just to, you know, elites or fancy people or people who have these like, you know, cushy jobs.

33:41He was talking about how it could really affect people who are working, you know, two jobs and don't have time to deal with the paperwork for health care or for getting government benefits or applying for financial aid for college. Or it's this convoluted kind of difficult thing. You know, when I went to college, my sister had gone to college, but we were kind of navigating this process on our own. You know, it wasn't really something we didn't have a legacy of people who are alumni that we knew how to consult. And so applying for financial aid was really difficult, and we didn't totally understand it, even what we were signing up for then.

34:14And talking about how that could be helpful to people now, I love. And I think that could be really, really helpful to a lot of the people I grew up with. But I think on the other side of it, it's if this happens so fast and it wipes out all these jobs before we even have time to understand the implications of it, it's scary. But I think everyone can see how it's helpful to them on a daily basis. I use it for research and for looking things up. My dad sells mobile homes. He uses it every day for random things. Wow, your dad sells mobile.

34:40Kara Swisher:I didn't know your dad sold mobile. I love a mobile home. Yes, yes, he does. The big ones, the really fancy ones. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's a range, but. There's a range, yeah. Yeah, there's a range. Have you ever lived in a mobile home? If you need to have a call, I'll help you out. You know, I had a lot of family members lived in mobile homes, so I have a familiarity of mobile homes. Yeah, but I just think that that speaks to the spectrum of it, you know, that I use it every day. My dad uses it. My mom is a teacher. She uses it. It really is something that you can see how it can be helpful, but that doesn't mean that they should just run amok.

35:09Kara Swisher:Or not have worries about it for your job. Yeah, we'll just wait and see what happens. You know what I used it for this morning? What? Looking up. I couldn't find, my son has an obsession with monster trucks. I'm taking him to a monster truck rally, of course. And we couldn't figure out what this one monster truck was. So I tried to find it on Google and I just couldn't, like through the imagery and I described it. I just took a picture of it, put it in a claw and it was like, oh, that's Tiger Reek. And I was like, thank you. And my son was like, thank you. And I was like, fantastic. And then he's in this weird toddler monster truck trading rink with a bunch of boys, and they trade them like insane.

35:44Kara Swisher:Like I can see him years from now being on Wall Street trading stocks, but now he's trading monster trucks. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump breaks his endorsement losing streak.

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39:33Kara Swisher:Caitlin, we're back with more. Donald Trump just snapped his recent losing streak with an endorsed candidates coming out on top in the latest round of Republican primaries in South Carolina. Lindsey Graham's sister, Darlene, won her primary despite having virtually no political experience in debate snafu over foreign policy. But Trump went all in on her, visiting South Carolina to stump for her and also tapping into his MAGA Inc. Super PAC, which he doesn't often do. Trump also had success in Oklahoma, where his candidate won in the Republican runoff for governor. Talk a little bit about this, because he also, speaking in the midterms, got a major boost from the Supreme Court this week in his push to redistrict mail-in voting.

40:09Kara Swisher:Now, it was reported not quite correctly. The majority of justices said Trump could move forward with his executive order, which means plans to do it. not actually implementing, which directs the Postal Service to help determine which voters should receive mail-in ballots. It's unclear whether it's actually going to impact the midterms. A separate injunction is in place and more legal wranglers expected. But as Justice Brown Jackson wrote in her dissent, the ruling needlessly injects chaos and uncertainty in the upcoming midterm elections. About 30 percent of all ballots in the 2024 election were cast by mail.

40:41Kara Swisher:While Trump has long attacked mail-in voting, he's used it himself a lot, most recently in his this month in Florida's GOP primary. Yeah, just a couple days ago. But what they said is, if he breaks, it's like they didn't want to do pre-crime. If it's illegal, we'll call it illegal. But right now he can plan for it, essentially. Which that seemed fair, honestly. But icky, but fair. Talk about these two things, where his power is right now. Well, on the executive order, yeah, they were basically saying, for now, this can move forward. But the lawsuit, it wasn't about the merits. The ruling wasn't about the merits of the case.

41:13It was more about the timing. and when they were sued over it. So we'll see what happens there, because, I mean, obviously, you know, we're 10 weeks out from the midterms. The closer you get, the harder it is to implement those changes, agree with them or disagree. On Darlene Graham, though, I mean, we went into Tuesday night not knowing what really was going to happen in that Senate runoff, because obviously Republicans in South Carolina, you know, are kind of divided on this. Not kind of divided, they are divided on it, because so many people wanted to run for this seat, But the president had self-anointed or had anointed Darlene Graham after her brother's death.

41:46So suddenly this summer. And so going into last night, the one takeaway is we've been following Trump's endorsement power. You know, whether or not he can bring these candidates over the line if he's not on the ballot. It showed that he still does have that power because he basically elevated someone who until a couple of weeks ago was not well known, who did have some debate mishaps, whose policy decisions and stances are not really well defined. and he basically elevated her in a way to where she was successful last night against Ralph Norman. And so, and it's not like Ralph Norman is someone who is not this massive ally of the president's.

42:19He's the person who, last time we had him on the show, we asked him about the text message he sent after January 6th, where he said he wanted the president to declare martial law.

42:29Kara Swisher:Yes, I recall. And I asked him about that and he told me his only regret was that he spelled it M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L, not M-A-R-T-I-A-L. So this person is a very close ally of the president's, to put it lightly. Yeah. But obviously, Darlene Graham was pulled across the line, likely is going to be a senator till 2032, at least. Why did he do it? Why her versus Storm and Norman? I think it seemed, as we were reporting on this, when he came out and endorsed her to have the seat just for a little bit in that temporary period until the runoff, I talked to White House officials who said it's just a tribute to Lindsey.

43:08It's his dear friend that he lost suddenly. And she's going to be there kind of, you know, in just a placeholder role. They did not think it was going to be for the long haul. These are White House officials who speak to the president. And so we kind of said, OK. And then we got closer to the runoff. And it was clear that the president thought that Darlene Graham should run for the seat, really. And now, obviously, is the nominee. And so I think there are questions of what that's going to look like once she's in the Senate. She said she disagreed with her brother only on immigration, that she would have gone further, but wasn't able to articulate, you know, policy on Taiwan, for example, which could be a real issue soon.

43:44And so I think it did speak, though, to the president's political power. But the other part of this is, and that's what the White House will tell, they had to spend a lot of money from his super PAC that does not has been pretty stingy, actually, with Republicans. They spent$800 ,000 a year. He did a virtual rally. He did an in-person rally. I mean, the president put a lot of effort into a very safe Republican seat in ensuring that his candidate got across the line. And I think that's because his endorsement power has been tested in other places and he didn't want it to be tested here.

44:12Kara Swisher:Well, there's a lot of coverage about his power waning rather considerably. Like, and, you know, he definitely had to heavy this one, right? He had to shove it through in a way that he never had to. Which for South Carolina is pretty remarkable in and of itself. Yeah. So how are people looking about his power? There's all kinds of people leaving the administration. You know, I think everyone wants to get out ahead of the Democratic potential subpoenas in the midterms because most people. What was interesting also about that Darlene race is Polly Market and Kalshi did get it right. Polling did not, which was interesting.

44:45Kara Swisher:They were more accurate in terms of the final numbers, maybe a little bit too high for them and way too low for the polls, which is interesting. That's a whole crisis right now in political coverage. But then again, they got a bunch of other things wrong. Polly Market did in Michigan and other places in Wisconsin. Where is the power now? How are people feeling with people leaving? And, you know, you've covered this administration since when? Like since the first one, right? Forever. You and Maggie Haberman. Maggie, she's covered Trump longer than me. But, yeah, I've been there for all the admin years.

45:21You know, in terms of his power, it is a real question, I think. And, you know, this November, it'll obviously be a test to that, but also it's a test of just, you know, political conventional wisdom, which is that the president, you know, after his first years in office, his party loses pretty badly when it comes to these congressional elections. We'll see what shapes out here. I mean, I think with the redistricting and so much that has changed and just since February alone with the war, we don't really have a good understanding. We don't know. and given how wrong the polls have been, and they're just a snapshot, I do think we don't really know what's going to happen in November.

45:55Everyone kind of assumes they know, but I think we have to wait and really see what this looks like. And so I think for the president, though, and the way he views his endorsement power, which, you know, last night he was calling Darlene Graham an underdog, saying, like, he was touting his own power and acknowledging that she is not this strong political figure in South Carolina. For him, I think it's also a test of he came into office in the second term with so much power and able to bend corporate executives, congressional Republicans, law firms, pretty much anybody to his will.

46:28Kara Swisher:But not Caitlin Collins. But go ahead. Well, true. But hopefully that's true for anybody. Can't get a smile out of you, Caitlin. Can't do it. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a whole other thing. I'll ask you about that later. But I think that, you know, for him to be in a situation where there are people who push back on him and he is going to be in a different world in Washington, should the midterms not go his way, will be a very different time of the Trump presidency. Is there a prediction? I think he'll cooperate. That's my feeling. Like, I think he knows, right? Presumably. With what? With the investigations?

47:03Kara Swisher:I think he'll go whatever way the wind blows. I think, no, I don't think he'll be, I think he'll, I mean, I think those meetings between Jared Kushner and Hakeem Jeffries says a lot. They're going to, he's going to try to recover himself in a different way or reinvent himself in some other way. I also think, I mean, this is my prediction. This isn't, you know, I mean, this is what I've heard from reporting. It's an estimated, it's an educated prediction, but it's, I mean, we'll have to, you know, you can't really predict too much in political reporting. You have to wait and see. I don't think that they will handle congressional oversight the way they did the first time.

47:35And I think that the president hated being impeached so much, even though he says he expects it and thinks it'll happen again this time. I think that there will be way more pushback from the DOJ and from the White House, even than what we saw the last time around. Oh, interesting. And so I think it will be a very different Washington should the Democrats win and should they try to conduct these investigations. And I don't think it's totally clear that we'll actually see it in the same way we saw the first time.

47:59Kara Swisher:So dig in even more? because he's pretty oh wow interesting see i think he's gonna roll right over i think he's a i'm not gonna say what i think he is but i think he's a bully you know he gets punched in the nose he's gonna stop that's i don't know maybe not that's why he's doing all this i'm gonna tear down the kennedy center foot stomp and this and that i just think he just he knows his time is limited i think he's very aware he's he's very um lizard-like in that way he knows you know he has a very good sense of where the wind is blowing in a lot of ways one thing on an off note about the Kennedy Center, I rewatched Dolly Parton's tribute from 2006 last night.

48:35And it was a reminder of how great the Kennedy Center honors are and why they're so important. They are. Because they really did provide us with like this moment of her, of Reba coming out and telling this great story about when she met Dolly. And it reminded me of just how great, you know, everyone like criticizes Washington institutions. That's one that's this lovely moment for the entire country, I think.

48:55Kara Swisher:Do you know 24-year-old Kara Swisher covered it every year when I was at the Washington Post? Mm-hmm. I was the reporter for this. I was in the style section 23, 24. Wait, I didn't know this. I love this. Yes, I was the reporter for the Washington Post. I went to all the breakfasts. I covered it. John Denver, I remember doing. And I used to sit there and get my little quotes and write up the Kennedy Center Honors. I loved it. What a great assignment. Oh, it was so good for a young reporter. You're like, I'll do the Kennedy Center Honors. Don't worry, guys. Well, they actually, like, we'll send the young lady to it.

49:23Kara Swisher:Like, we'll send the young people to it because all the older people are like, I'm not going out. Yeah, it's like a Sunday night. Yeah. It goes super late. Yeah. And by the way, the Kennedy Center, for all it's, I'm not a big fan of the look of it, honestly, but I, just what's happening there is ridiculous. It's kind of ridiculous, weird, weird flex. Like, why would you flex on that? Like, it just seems silly. I get the White House part. I do, in a weird way, but I don't get the other thing. Over and under, whether he's going to get the ballroom built? Yes, no? Well, I mean, there's a giant hole in the ground right now, so they're definitely working on it.

49:55And I don't, I don't, I don't think, I can't, I just can't see them half building it and then stopping. And I do think the question, I mean, maybe it's a silly question. It's obviously not substantive and not the number one question. But should a Democrat win after? It is a real question of what they will do with smaller. The other changes are easier to reverse. The ballroom would will be more difficult because it is smaller ballroom if it's not fully

50:17Kara Swisher:built. Smaller. They need. Yeah. I mean, going into the White House every day and I've covered the White House for 10 years, seeing these giant cranes, you know, it's totally it's changed the way we cover the president because his departures don't happen where, you know, chopper talk, that doesn't happen anymore on the South Lawn because we can't go out there because there's so much construction and it's taken up such a big part of it. And they're also building the helipad that he wants done by the time Chinese President Xi Jinping comes next month. There's a lot happening back there. You know what I do love is Arlington Cemetery is one of the most hallowed places that you can visit.

50:49And it's beautiful. I mean, brought me to tears when I I first went as a 24-year-old. The arch, I think, will obstruct part of the view of the cemetery from my understanding of how it is, which I think, you know, is a miss for people who want to just go to the cemetery and pay their respects.

51:06Kara Swisher:That's a ridiculous idea. It's a beautiful place. It was Robert E. Lee's estate. It was his plantation, which is incredible to think about. It's a beautiful—you know, my dad is not buried in—my dad was in the military, is not buried in there. But, you know, it's just one of the most beautiful places. Yeah, but you probably think about them every time you go there. Every time. Every time. All right, Caitlin, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, a golf ad that missed the mark.

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54:19Kara Swisher:Caitlin, we're back with more news. Now on to the lovely ad from the sports world. Golf-focused media company Good Good Golf and equipment maker Callaway have apologized after an ad for their golf club showed a male golfer shoving a woman to the ground after she reached for his club. The video was intended as a parody of the horror movie Obsession. Let me tell you, it is not one. But drew backlash for making light of violence against women. By the way, in that movie, the woman was murderous, okay? She wasn't like, she was murderous. Good Good removed the video and apologized, and Calloway acknowledged that it approved the ad before it posted, which should have never happened.

54:56Kara Swisher:Of course, mistakes were made. It's not really a good excuse for, like, beating up on a woman. But Good Good plans to donate the campaign's proceeds to an organization supporting women. No thanks. Though they're still in the process of researching which one to give it to. Talk a little bit about a room of people approving an ad like this. And I would love you, one of the things, I know you've talked a lot about the smile thing and the attacks that President Trump does on you, which are very complicated, I think, in a lot of ways. But one of the things I said when I was on The View, when I was arguing with Sunny Hostin over this, and she's like, everyone in the room should say something or she should say something back.

55:32Kara Swisher:I said, absolutely not. She's handling it exactly right. Not having an emotion, doing her job, asking the question. if she makes it about her or a back and forth with the president it it's not what she should do talk a little because this was because the Texan you are sexist there's just no other way around it um talk a little bit about this ad and and and is I assume that's why you don't respond and the why you respond the way you do which is to be a professional yeah I mean first off on the ad I'm not in the golf world really at all um I was a car girl in college to make money but other than Yeah, that's probably the extent of my knowledge.

56:07It's like the person who you're in the cart that's loaded up with beer, water, sandwiches, and you drive backwards on the course, and you're basically like the rolling concession stand. But the golfers are always really glad to see you because, you know, if you're out on a big course in Alabama in July, it gets hot. And I would always try to be like the best car curl. Like I would whip around that course. I would always remember everyone's orders. It was actually a great job. I loved it.

56:32Kara Swisher:Run behind a golf cart, like, say, Natalie Harp, right? No, I was driving the golf cart. Okay. And it was huge and heavy, and you worked, like, 14-hour days, and I would be totally exhausted. It was good. It was a good college job, and I highly recommend it. But when I saw that ad, and then the response—it's always the response that, like, somehow makes it worse. It's like people really don't know how it won. the fact that it got approved and people thought this is hilarious is insanity. But then the response, the mistakes were made, we're researching, you know, the best place to donate this money to.

57:11I mean, it's just cringeworthy. You think, how does it get that far? And I understand, you know, sometimes people make mistakes, bad judgment calls. That seemed like a pretty obvious one, where obviously, like, did they ask any women what they thought about that ad before they posted it?

57:28Kara Swisher:No, but honestly, did they ask any men? Like, my son saw it and he was like, are you kidding me? So why do you think it is? Is that sort of a thing of Trump, like manly man or something? What do you attribute it to? I think with the president, it's more of a power thing. I think that it's, you know, moments where we're coming into the Oval Office to what I was just saying about how people treat him. And, you know, we've watched it. You see all the cabinet meetings or with executives who come in there and they each take turns praising him, saying he's the first president who's ever done X, Y, and Z for them.

58:03That is an environment that he is used to and has been for some time and doesn't face a lot of questioning or pushback or opposition. And, I mean, even his own aides devise, you know, when they disagree with him, how to bring that up to him and how to talk to him about it. And so I think that, you know, when people come in the Oval Office and the way they've changed the press corps, you know, there's one or two annoying people in there who are asking him questions that he doesn't like. Even if they're pretty straightforward questions and they're quoting other officials, like with my colleague Kristen Holmes the other day quoting John Ossoff and how the White House responded to that, which just was bizarre.

58:42I think that they just it's the questioning that they don't like in and of itself. It's not it doesn't even really matter who it's coming from. And that's why I don't respond or react.

58:51Kara Swisher:It is always women. It's almost always women, which is. Well, and that's why I don't respond or react, because I don't I truly feel this and I don't think that it's about me and I don't want to make it about me. And I want to, you know, I'm asking a question because I want an answer to it or because I'm trying to point something out with the question itself. And so I never want to get bogged down in some kind of back and forth or argument or fight that becomes about me because I want it to stay focused on the question. And truly, that has been my mentality on this for 10 years now. And it's never surprising when this happens to me.

59:24It truly isn't anymore. White House Correspondents Dinner, in the Oval Office, any of these moments. And so, you know, I'm there to do my job.

59:32Kara Swisher:Do you think the other reporters should say something? I don't either. I think they should repeat your question, perhaps. That's the only thing I can think of. Yeah, I think following up on questions is important and taking those moments. Or, you know, I remember there was a press conference during the pandemic where the president would come out and do the briefings himself. And Peter Alexander was asking a question and Trump was going off on Peter about Peter, not about the question. And then when he called on me, I kind of said, you know, people are sitting at home watching this, trying to figure out, do they send their kids to school?

1:00:03Can they go to work? Is it safe to get these groceries and bring them into their home? And, you know, in those early days, no one wants to hear about this attacking a reporter. They want you, who's been speaking with these officials and the doctors, to give them guidance or answer their questions or like, you know, some kind of, you know, national instruction of what we should be doing in this moment. And I think that's, you know, I just think it's always important to return to the substance.

1:00:27Kara Swisher:One time I was on a show and my son was in the green room and one of the guests after me said, your mom's really smart, but she should smile more to my son. Said this to my son. Oh, boy. I know. And my son was like, my son goes, are you like 150 years old? Because that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And I was like, parenting well done. I know. I was so proud of him. That must have been such a fulfilling moment for you. Yeah, it's the frat bro who did it, too, by the way. He's like, don't talk to my mom. Don't talk to my mom. And women shouldn't have to smile. Also, anyone who would say that to Kara Swisher's son.

1:01:02Kara Swisher:Well, yes, I know that. Exactly. Talk to a young reporter who that happens to. Explain what's going through your head for just a second and what advice you would give them when that happens. Because I get it from the tech bros, too. Yeah. And, you know, it's easier to brush off the longer you've done it. Because I think, you know, the first time it happens to you, it's obviously jarring. Because, you know, being a reporter in and of itself, and I talk to a lot of young people who are graduating who want to be in the reporting field, it can be intimidating because by nature, what you're doing is you are sometimes, if you're covering things critically or questioning what's happening, which you should be if it's a taxpayer-funded project or official, has always been my position on this, is you're inherently kind of having this, like, you know, at-odds relationship where you're asking questions.

1:01:51They don't really want you to ask, much less they don't want to answer. And so, you know, as a reporter, you really do kind of have to, you have to accept that you're the one person in that room who they view as like the skunk at the garden party and they don't like what you're saying. And you have to really, you can't do it to be liked. And you can't go in there thinking, oh, they're going to love my question or think it's so smart. Because one, they're never going to be happy with what you're asking. I mean, unless you're saying, why is this so great? Why is this such an amazing idea?

1:02:20Kara Swisher:Fantastic hairdo, sir. Right, like people will just never be happy with that. And so I think as a young reporter, you just got to be ready and, you know, go in there with resolve. And I also think this is my always been my thing, being prepared, knowing what you're talking about, having follow up questions ready, knowing what that person is probably going to say in response to your question will give you more confidence going to any of those exchanges than anything else. You really I mean, it's like you got to build it up yourself and you will every time. but being prepared always made me feel better because I would, you know, no matter where this goes.

1:02:56Kara Swisher:You're ready with the follow-up. You did that with the Epstein question, you know, you were like, but this happened. It's still hard. It's a very difficult thing. And, but I have to say, you have shown incredible poise in doing so. I think most people think that and they can't believe I would, I'd not be able to. I'd be like, can you fucking step off, sir? Like I wouldn't be, I just couldn't do it. That's why I couldn't cover it. I just, I lost my ability to not talk slap back at people. Anyway, I appreciate it. All right, Caitlin, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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1:04:58Kara Swisher:Okay, Caitlin, let's hear a prediction. Okay, so my first question on this was, what should my prediction be in the realm of? And I guess the answer is anything. So I can truly pick anything that I want to predict. Anything. Aliens showing up, etc. I wish. Please hurry up if they're coming. I know. We're waiting. I think my prediction is going to be about college football because we're getting closer and closer to kickoff for Alabama. All right. You are a huge—for people to know, she's an enormous—so is Tim Cook. Yes. Well, he went to Auburn, though, so we're rivals. Okay. But, yeah, right. Rivals.

1:05:31But not really. I mean, it's Auburn. My sister went to Auburn, too. She doesn't like when we say that.

1:05:36Kara Swisher:Yeah. And you know what's funny is anytime I wear, like, orange or something on air, which, you know, I live in Washington and New York. Like, I don't think it's that crazy. Someone from Alabama is like, why is she wearing Auburn collars tonight, y 'all? Oh, wow. It's just so funny that that is truly how we think in Alabama. I think my prediction is we're going to go hopefully 10-2 this season. What does that mean? Ten wins, two losses. And I'm sure one of them is going to be some loss that leaves us all just scratching our heads. Who would you least like to lose against? I believe it's Michigan, correct?

1:06:06Well, that's, I mean, we'll see if we play them in the playoffs and what that looks like. I mean, I think, you know, I hate to lose to Georgia. That's a big one for us lately. And one of my colleagues is a big Georgia fan. And so, yeah, I mean, it's just, it is the best time of the year. It is the most agonizing time of the year. Yeah, you're really into it.

1:06:24Kara Swisher:People don't realize. You go down there, right? You go to the game. Yeah, yeah, I go to a bunch of games. I try to go to as many as possible. It's tough. There's like one flight to Birmingham in the morning to make kickoff. And I've cut it pretty close sometimes after doing the show on Friday nights. So 10 and 2, whatever that means. So I'm hoping we're going to go 10-2. That's my optimistic outlook. I'm hoping we'll make the playoffs. And, yeah, I mean, it's tough. I love it so much. It really is this bittersweet feeling. And I was home, actually, the other day, driving in Alabama, listening to the FM radio, and Paul Feinbaum, who is my favorite sports talk show host that I listened to all the time growing up, listening to him and these people call in, Kara, you would love it.

1:07:03and they just argue with him about college football and the state of it and what's going on. Yeah. I love it.

1:07:10Kara Swisher:It does bring that together. Although there was that disturbing report this week about NFL players. They've got to do something. So scary. They've got to do something because it starts early on. You know, I didn't let my kids play football because of that. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, as a parent, it's a huge question because it's terrifying. One in four, right? One in four? Yeah, one in four. And it's no more scarier than for athletes themselves, you know, who have to reckon with this talent that they have, this opportunity to have personal success in a way that so few people can and, you know, at times can be a huge deal for them.

1:07:44And also with their own personal health and longevity. And you're asking, you know, 18-year-olds to make this decision.

1:07:51Kara Swisher:Or earlier. My kids, my son played touch football, which I was fine with because it was not, you know, and he was good. They were good. Both of them were big guys. and I just I ran I think it was Roger Goodell once and he's like oh and I had my boys with me like oh your boys playing football I said not if I want them to be you know mentally disabled by 33 and he was like okay and moved like nice meeting you nice meeting you it's like oh okay just you know but I felt that because I agree with you there's something very beautiful about football games and you know games and sports and uh and the and the community it brings bring me back to the Valley.

1:08:27Kara Swisher:There's a community of something around. Yeah, but you want to protect these athletes. Yeah. I mean, that's what I care about. There's technological ways to do it. There is. They just have to start to get serious about it. Speaking of AI, there's all manner of things they could do. Yeah. And you want to protect these kids who are, you know, giving their all in the field. And it's just, it is so special to watch. It is. Yeah, it is. It is. It's a great thing. My prediction, I'm going to make a very short one. You know, Rob Bond. Is it also about Alabama football? No, not at all. I don't watch sports.

1:08:57Kara Swisher:Well, let me just say, my prediction is I can't wait for the season finale of Furious, which is speaking of angry women, which is amazing. It's a show on Hulu. But my prediction actually has to do with the settlement that Meta made. This was led by Rob Bond to someone who you just interviewed. I think Paramount doesn't settle, like stop the games they're playing with all these press releases, personal attacks, weird leaks and things like that. And they're pretending it's not them. It is them leaking all this stuff. They need to settle. And Bonta has shown his ability to settle when it makes a reasonable kind of thing.

1:09:36Kara Swisher:This guy is really someone to watch and he's very clever and spicy. And he's got a lot of leverage here. And if they're not completely idiotic, they have to stop playing games, as he said, and settle. and they should and they will. I think they must and if they don't, it's over. And so that's my prediction is that somehow someone's going to slap the sense into these people and do a thing because this guy, this success with Meta is going to make a big difference in a lot of stuff that he's doing. How did you find him? You found him. He's something. He's something else, right? Well, I mean, you know more about all of the discussions and what's happening behind the scenes than I do because you cover it every day.

1:10:22I mean, from our perspective, you know, we had the attorney general on as, you know, from a reporter's perspective as an interview guest because it is a genuine news story. And I think even though CNN is involved in it, because obviously it's our parent company, Warner Brothers, you know, we have to still approach it as a news story and still cover it as such. And so we had him on. And I thought it was interesting because he was so, you know, we asked if he had evidence about them leaking, but he was so visceral on his reaction of how he viewed how they've handled this. And I think I said to him at one point, you know, it doesn't sound like you really want to settle with them or that you're in the environment for that, I guess I should say, given where things had broken down to at that moment.

1:11:03And so obviously we'll see what happens. But he seemed, my understanding from his appearance on the show the other night was that he seemed very confident of his position. He has a good position. And so obviously we will see where it goes from here.

1:11:15Kara Swisher:Yeah, some of it's saber rattling, some of it's this and that, But 100%, that's who leaked. I can tell you that. But it was really, actually, his office is tight as a tick, I have to say. I've tried my various ways to get in there. And they're much tighter. Paramount is a leaky sieve of the place. Sorry, David. David is always surprised by that, but it is. All media companies, FYI, all media companies are leaky sieves. And they are excellent for reporters to do. But it was a very good interview you did with him. It was really interesting. Anyway, I suspect there'll be a settlement because, come on, stop it.

1:11:48Kara Swisher:Stop it, boys. That's enough. That's enough of that. You want to care about people's jobs and about chaos and things like that. Well, football season goes through January if we make the playoffs, the national championship. So we'll see whose prediction bears out first. All right. Okay, we'll do that. I think yours is probably, well, you know, you can't knock sense into people. Well, now you've got to root for Alabama. All right. What do you do for an Alabama t-shirt next time? No, I can't because my son's at Michigan. Oh. Oh. They're a rival, right? They're a big rival. They're like, good. I'm going to the Michigan game on Parents Weekend.

1:12:17Kara Swisher:I'm sorry to give you that information. You're going to have so much fun. I mean, I love college football, period, so you're going to have so much fun. But Michigan did beat us in Nick Saban's last game before he retired, so I'm still taking that one personally. Yeah, I don't really care who wins, honestly, Caitlin. I don't. I don't. But go blue. That statement pains me. Go blue. Go blue. Someone, a friend of mine who I've converted to being an Alabama football fan, he was in Greece, and he said he saw a guy wearing an Auburn shirt the other day, and he goes, F Auburn. and the guy was so caught off guard by this like random person in Greece going after him.

1:12:48I was like, I love that we have spread it and we have got an army of Alabama fans out there.

1:12:53Kara Swisher:I'll consider it. I'm not a very good fan. The only person I'm a fan of right now is Dolly friggin' Parton. What a legend. What a legend. And again, Dolly, what a life well lived and what a saint. Yeah, and also what a great reminder of how to live your life. And the fact that we got to exist on the same planet as her is so special to me. And I completely mean that. That's what I thought. We got to exist on the same planet. Yeah. Like, how cool is that? We shared the same existence as Dolly Garner. I know. It's true. It's amazing. No fucks given in the most kind way possible. In the curve of kindness.

1:13:28That's such a good encapsulation, actually, of her.

1:13:30Kara Swisher:Yep. I love that. Yep. But lots of fucks given, too, which is anyway. All right. On the things that count. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your question about business, tech, or Whatever's on your mind, go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Caitlin, thank you so much. You're wonderful. I really think you're one of my—I got my mother to watch you. She was a Fox—she's a Fox News person. It's always on her thing, and I change it. And she goes, put that nice—I'm sorry to objectify. She goes, that very good-looking young woman. I love her. She's really tough.

1:14:03Your mom is allowed to objectify me. I know.

1:14:05Kara Swisher:I'm fine because she's so superficial. Well, I love that. And thank you for having me. It's been fun filling in for Scott. You could have a career in podcasting. You may think about it. You're pretty good. You're pretty good. I give you an A. And that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Endred up engineered this episode. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

1:14:35Kara Swisher:and also watch The Source with Caitlin Collins on CNN. It's every night at 9 o 'clock Eastern. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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