Michigan's Primary Drama, the DOJ's Next Boss, and Hillary Clinton Co-Hosts

23:23Kara Swisher:So talk a little bit about the gerrymandering for the upcoming. You're the first person who said, I'm a little worried to me, and I picked my head up. Huh, that's interesting. Yeah, no, look, the Republicans, you got to give them credit. They know what they're doing. They have to try to narrow the electorate in order to elect their candidates. And they're purging voters. They're waging all these lawsuits, trying to get a hold of voter rolls. They are trying to intimidate voters. They're trying to undermine confidence in the election. They know exactly what they're doing. And one of their most effective strategies is what they've done with gerrymandering and redistricting over the last years.

24:07And, you know, Republicans have no doubt about what's at stake. You know, they could care less about good government. They could care less about, you know, trying to figure out how we create an optimum environment for even more people to vote and feel their vote was counted. That's not what they're interested in. They're interested in winning, holding power, and then inflicting their values on all the rest of us. So the Democrats for years and, you know, there was a big movement. We wanted to go to nonpartisan redistricting. We wanted to make sure that, you know, people felt that they could vote in primaries or do what's called jungle voting so they could vote for both Democrats and Republicans at the same time.

24:53We did all of this in the name of good government, expanding the electorate, all the right things. Meanwhile, the Republicans on the other side of the aisle were doing everything they could to create a map that they would dominate. And they did it. So it wasn't enough for them what they'd already done. Then Trump was looking for more votes because he knew that the midterms would likely be bad for him. So that's when he called, you know, Abbott in Texas. And, you know, I'm really happy that Gavin Newsom was one of the first to say, we're fighting back. We're not going to sit here and be treated like chumps.

25:30You know, we're for good government. You're for power and you're going to dominate us for the foreseeable future. We're not going to live in that world. So we have fought them to sort of a draw, but they ended up with an advantage. And there were a couple of states that resisted Trump until he literally picked candidates to beat the state legislators who thought it wasn't the right thing to do. So they are still on the march to do everything they can to advantage themselves. Our, you know, effort in Maryland fell short because a Democratic, I think, Speaker of the House or Senate pro tem leader was against it.

26:08So Wes Moore couldn't get it out of the legislature. So he's trying to take it to a vote of the people. We saw what happened in Virginia, where they went to the extraordinary lengths of getting a new map that they submitted to the voters. You didn't see Abbott doing that in Texas. They just drew the lines and, you know, told people to fall in line. And so when Virginia was overturned, that would have given us if it hadn't been overturned on what I thought was a kind of a procedural, you know, red herring. But they did it. So we lost those potential seats. So this is going to be a real fight.

26:47Kara Swisher:So you're more worried. You were expressing more worry. Most people think it's going to be a slam dunk. Well, I'm always worried. I'm always worried. But I don't know how big our margin will be. Which needs to be, the margin's important. It does. It does. It needs to be big enough to accommodate our big tent and also to drive an agenda in the House. And I still think, like I say, I still think we're going to win. I still think that, you know, the efforts that were made for us to fight back, you know, did give us some advantage. I think maybe we'll even see some surprises in the Texas redistricting because I'm not sure they did as good a job redistricting because of the way they cut up black districts.

27:28But then along comes the Supreme Court decision gutting the Voting Rights Act. And so all of a sudden that gave states that wanted to limit black representation another bite at the apple, so to speak.

27:41Kara Swisher:But it didn't work in Missouri. It didn't work in Louisiana. Yeah, right. And it worked probably in Alabama. And so, you know, so they never stop. I guess my point is they're not interested in free and fair elections. So very briefly for the Senate, most people think that Democrats will not take the Senate. But what is your prediction? I think we still have a 50-50 shot. I mean, it really comes down to Michigan and Maine. Can the new candidate in Maine beat Susan Collins? You know, she has a remarkable staying power in Maine. Speaking of carbuncles, yeah. I mean, the, you know, main voters have voted for her while they voted for Democratic presidents, Democratic governors, and Democratic members of Congress.

28:27So, you know, he seems to be, you know, really vigorously trying. And unlike the, you know, the problems that we had with the first candidate, he seems to be in, I hope, the stretch to, you know, be able to compete all the way. No surprises. And then back to Michigan, we'll see. We'll see whether—and it's the best year for somebody like El Saeed to be running. It's the best year because, you know, Trump is so unpopular. His popularity, I think, is down to 33 percent. So he will have the advantage of running against a Republican when Republican and the Republican brand is not in good standing. Especially with the war driving on.

29:16Yeah, and a lot of people I talk to about Iran, Cara, say that we're not going to be out of it by the election. It's going to linger over this country and cause problems in the economy. And just about any way Trump now tries to get out of it, he's going to look like a loser, which I think our candidates can then add to their messaging against Republicans.

29:40Kara Swisher:Yeah. All right, Madam Secretary, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Todd Blanche gets closer to becoming Trump's new attorney general.

29:53Kara Swisher:Support for Pivot comes from Anthropic. Finding your flow of work can be a challenge, especially if you don't have the proper tools. The good news? Cloud is here to help you out at every stage, getting you through the small nitty-gritty and helping you look at the big picture. Cloud is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's a collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Cloud extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. You can delegate tasks of all sizes, from tedious bug fixes and new feature ideas, then handle other work while Cloud runs in the background.

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32:03Kara Swisher:Hi, everybody. It's Megan Rapinoe. I've been thinking a lot about this one question I've been asked over and over. A question about the choices I've made, the colors of my hair, the things in the world I've spoken about, and the things that I haven't. I've heard this question asked so many different ways, but it always came down to, why are you like this? And as you know, there's no simple answer because people are not simple. We're messy and complicated and contradictory and layered. So on my new show, I'm sitting down with the ultimate disruptors, the athletes, the artists, the activists, and the architects of our culture who looked at the way things were and asked, why do we do it like this?

32:46Kara Swisher:and can we do it differently? My hope is to give us a little more space to that question and to the person on the other side of the mic, not to tell us their answer or read from their script, but to take us on their journey. Check out my new show, Why Are You Like This, on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Thursday.

33:12Kara Swisher:Madam Secretary, we're back with more news. Senate Republicans advanced Todd Blanche's nomination for attorney general after he committed to killing Trump's anti-weaponization fund. Republican Senators John Cornyn and Tom Tillis dropped their opposition after Blanche put in writing the fund would not move forward. Democrats argued that changes aren't legally enforceable and warned the fund could be revived in the future. Senate Judiciary Committee voted 12 to 10 along party lines to send Blanche's nomination to the full Senate, where Republicans hold 53 seats. However, with Senator Mitch McConnell expected to miss the vote, Blanche can afford to lose only two Republican senators, and Susan Collins has already said she'll vote no.

33:50Kara Swisher:And great news, Blanche told faith leaders that he was planning to roll back abortion access. That's not great news for women, even in states that have laws protecting it, making Dobbs permanent in every state. How much do you think the Justice Department changes under Blanche compared to the last several months, and how likely is the Anti-Weaponization Fund resurfaces in another form? Now, a lot of people say if he didn't get Blanche, you just keep him there as acting. And what's the difference? Or I'll put someone worse in. Thoughts? Although it's gone from bad to worse, from Pam Bond. Well, look, I think Todd Blanche has proven himself to be a total sycophant in every way.

34:31I mean, he had a fairly robust legal career before he began representing Trump. And he is all in. He's not the attorney general of the United States. He is the personal lawyer of Donald Trump presiding over the Department of Justice. And she pointed out by accident.

34:50Kara Swisher:And that's already a slip of all time. I know. And what they've done to the Justice Department, I don't think most people who are not lawyers or don't follow this closely realize what the perversion of justice means. You know, I've heard you and Scott talking about what are the real pillars of the American success, our political success, but especially our economic success over, you know, 250 years. Well, part of that was, you know, look, with exceptions, a rule of law, a Justice Department that we thought was, you know, mostly on the level, a legal system with judges who were more interested in following the law than currying favor to the president who appointed them.

35:37That is a key to whether or not we have a confidence in our economic system as well as our political system. So what they've done to destroy confidence in the justice system has far-reaching implications. It's not just about Trump trying to get immunity from having his taxes ever audited. You know, I've been in politics for a long time. I've been audited more times than I can remember. You know what? That's part of the way that you show that there's nothing to hide and you show that you have confidence in our legal system. Trump doesn't want to be accountable to anybody. And he now has an attorney general who is a, you know, absolute implementer of whatever grunt or grievance that, you know, Trump puts forth.

36:26And I think I think Todd Blanche is extremely dangerous. And the idea that you would say what he said about abortion when allegedly the Dobbs decision was to put it back in the states, that was never their final goal. They always intended to go from returning it to the states to try to prevent the states like Kansas, a surprising red state that consistently votes to keep abortion out of politics, to give women the choice to make what is best for them and their families. They don't want that. They want a uniform national set of criminal penalties and rules, and Todd Blanche is going to deliver for them the best he can.

37:08How can he do that in the next— I don't know. I don't know what he means by that. I think what he means is they're going to try to— With the pills, with the—because abortions are up. Numbers of abortions are up. Yeah, that's the irony. If you really wanted abortions to fall, which I've been working for since the 90s. I've been working to decrease teen pregnancy, working to, you know, make abortions not necessary by providing, you know, contraception to people in an affordable way so that they could, you know, make decisions when they felt ready to make decisions, doing more education so that people, particularly young people, knew what was at stake.

37:45And there's a lot of things you could do. But if you're going to treat women like they're disposable commodities and they should be barefoot and in the kitchen, you're going to get more abortions. Because and they're going to be either legal abortions in the states where they are still available or they're going to be back alley abortions. And anybody who has studied history or knows anything about this understands it.

38:07Kara Swisher:Right. So do you think he could bring back the anti-weaponization fund? It seems it seems to stick in Trump's craw quite a bit. Well, I think they will try to reimagine the weaponization fund and call it something else and bring it back because Trump wants to reward his insurgents, particularly from January 6th. But, you know, others who have stuck with him despite all the evidence to the contrary, they want to finalize this immunity from auditing. which I don't see how they can do that, and I think that can be reversed. So I think he's going to—he has a checklist. He has the Trump checklist. He's going to go down it.

38:50Kara Swisher:Right. Would you apply for the Anti-Weaponization Fund? Well, I don't think I'd be eligible under their definition. Oh, really? I would, you know, certainly, you know, consider it if they're going to take care of, you know, the crazies on the right who tried to upset our election and were beating police officers. which is absolutely disgraceful. So do you, but do you, do you think he'll drop this? There's only a limited time he has. I think they're waiting to see what happens in the midterm. I think a lot of this will wait till after the midterms. And I think it's going to be likely that Trump is even more out of control after the midterms.

39:31And let's assume from my perspective, the best happens. We take back the House, we take back the Senate. He's not going to work with them. He's going to do everything he can to undermine them. He's going to instruct people who work for him not to respond to inquiries or even subpoenas. He's going to be in a big standoff with the Congress. And he's going to be using executive orders and whatever power he has from the presidency to pursue his agenda. I think he'll be pardoning a lot more corrupt people. You know, you look at the list of the pardons that he's given. It's a total transactional exchange.

40:12You or somebody on your behalf gives me money. I don't care if you've cheated, you know, elderly people in nursing homes, which one of the people that he pardoned did, to great cost to them. And you owe them billions of dollars in compensation. I'm going to take the money and just erase that. And I think Democrats can run against some of those pardons. Most people have no idea what he has done. What he's given out. Yeah, and what he's taken for it. I mean, the amount of money that he's taken for it.

40:42Kara Swisher:Right. No, it is coin-operated. It is coin-operated. It is coin-operated. Cyber coin-operated, too. Hypo, whatever. Like, stick any money in. Or you give money and you get a contract with the government. That's the other. Yeah, to fix the reflecting pool, whatever it is. Right, yeah. Yeah. I bet you could fix the reflecting pool. Anyway. I bet I'd know where to go to get the right people. It's true. You know a pool guy, right? Yeah, I do. I know a pool guy. As we record this, speaking of water, U.S. and Iran are reportedly closing in on an interim agreement to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. I feel like it's Groundhog Day here.

41:16Kara Swisher:We've heard that before. Similar deals and arrangements have been made, only to collapse when attacks resumed. Trump said Tuesday night that a lot of progress has been made, though that came a day after he warned Iran could face decapitation if it failed to reach a deal, which he said before he was going to bomb them back to last Sunday or whatever. We're now in the six months of this war that was supposed to last for a couple of weeks. Do you talk a little bit about this? And I'm going to make you repeat something I've had you repeat several times. But what do you think is happening here? And do you have any confidence in this latest deal?

41:47Well, I don't have any confidence that it's a good deal, but it may be the best deal Trump can get because he doesn't really understand. I mean, he approved of a ceasefire agreement a few months ago that was a terrible deal for the United States and the region and international shipping and, you know, the list goes on. So he really doesn't understand what is happening and what the stakes can be. So as I understand this latest attempt at a deal, it would result in fees being charged to at least some category of container ships going through the Strait of Hormuz. It would be a service fee. Now, that has never been applied prior to this ill-conceived war that Trump embarked on.

42:44So that's a definite loss. The loss is that what used to be free, free navigation, a commercial, you know, sea lane that was open to everybody is now going to be, in effect, taxed by Oman and Iran. That's the first loss. Second loss is, you know, Iran still has ballistic missiles. It still is producing deadly drones. It is still attacking shipping, and it is still encouraging at least its proxy, the Houthis, to attack. And they went so far as literally to attack a ship in Egyptian waters. So what happened to the destruction of their ability to launch ballistic missiles, to launch deadly drones?

43:32That's a third loss. The leadership, yeah, he got rid of the people who were at the top, but the infrastructure prevailed. So you now have probably a more militaristic government structure that the, you know, Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps dominates. And the clerics have been somewhat weakened but are still useful to keep the regime in place. So that's a third loss. And I think the fourth loss is that a lot of our allies have watched this in total confusion. I mean, the lack of strategy, the lack of effective implementation, the lack of results that were trumpeted as what was going to be achieved.

44:25And people are going to not just start, they have started hedging their bets. I mean, how are you going to look at the United States, at least so long as Trump is there, with any kind of confidence at all? So I think it's a major loss, not just for Trump, sadly, but for the United States.

44:45Kara Swisher:So two things. If he called you and said, Hillary, I want you to get in here and fix this for me, what would you do? And secondly, you said something. You said Putin's in it in a way. Netanyahu's in it in a way. Yeah, it's called the domain of loss. So let me talk about that first, and then I'll answer the question about if he were to call me or, you know, Somebody were to ask me what to do that had any authority. So the domain of loss is a psychological concept, and it applies to human behavior. When you think you're losing, and this is why casinos make so much money and why gambling makes so much money in general, the likelihood is you will double down, you know, until something happens that you either run out of money or you are kicked out of the casino because you can't pay your debts, whatever it might be.

45:36Well, the domain of loss is a concept that applies much more generally to our behaviors. And for leaders, it's the description of how they double down on losing hands. So in today's world, Putin is doubling down. He's going to inflict as much punishment as he can on Ukraine because they won't quit. they won't, you know, lie down and die the way that he wants them to. Trump is going to continue to, you know, rant and rave. He's going to go after his enemies. He's doubling. He keeps threatening to double down on Iran. Maybe we'll get out of this. Maybe we won't. And the same thing with Netanyahu.

46:21I mean, he's in the domain of loss. So he has to keep, you know, fighting in order to preserve his political, in his mind, his political chances. And it's a psychological description of behavior that I have found very useful. So let's say somebody called and said, how do we get out of this? Well, I think you have to broaden the decision makers. One of the problems with Trump is he has a very narrow band of people that he relies on to negotiate everything. And after a while, that just doesn't work. I mean, even if they were the most accomplished negotiators, diplomats, whatever, you know, it's the same people you're sending everywhere.

47:03It just doesn't make the impact and it doesn't have the staying power that patient diplomacy requires. So who has the most to gain from getting the straight open, getting this war over? Well, obviously the Gulf region does, But so does India and so does China and so does Japan. And, you know, people who depend upon oil that is either coming from Iran or coming from the region that needs to go through the Strait of Hormuz. And I would have them be playing a very active role in, you know, basically persuading the Iranians to back down from charging fees, which is only going to make their costs go up as oil is transported to them.

47:49I would be looking for ways to try to get them personally engaged with the Gulf so that the Gulf Arabs would be similarly sending that message. You know, why are you raising all of our costs? You know, this is not good for us. It may be in the short term, you know, a tactic, but it's not going to be a long term strategy. So it would be to expand the base of people that are interacting with Iran and to make it clear that Iran has some stake in getting this over, getting the straight open and being open to negotiations on its nuclear program, which I think is going to be extremely hard. You know, I told you once, Kara, I started the nuclear negotiations back in 2011 after we got a Security Council resolution that imposed global sanctions on Iran, which had never happened before.

48:44And then, you know, I worked with the Gulf, particularly with Oman, which is now a major player in what happens going forward. And we began secret negotiations, very small group of Americans and Iranians to test whether they would be willing to negotiate seriously about their nuclear program. And, you know, eventually we ended up with an agreement. And, you know, people say, oh, it didn't go far enough. It's hard. You know, doing negotiations is hard. And we've seen the alternative. We've tried to bomb their nuclear program out of existence. We haven't decapitated them. We have not, you know, we decapitated, but we haven't ended the regime or its ambitions.

49:25Kara Swisher:Right. And it continues to be so. Would you, what do you think his next move will be? I think it depends upon his mood. I mean, he is the most impulsive, moodiest president. It depends upon how he's feeling, how he's being treated, what is being said about him. You know, the Iranians have played him, sadly, very effectively, because every time he says there's an agreement, they say, we're not negotiating. We don't know what you're talking about. Right, yeah, they fuck with him. So if he can be quiet and try to figure out how to get a better deal than it seems like the one that is being offered could be, maybe he can get himself out of this in, you know, a couple of weeks.

50:08Otherwise, it's going to be a ping pong game. You know, he's going to get upset. He's going to attack. And we're running out of munitions. We're running out of missiles. Sexual bombs, yeah. And one of the great tragedies of this unnecessary, not well-planned war in Iran is that we should have been doing more to help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia. They've run out of Patriot missiles. They can't defend against Russia's missiles. Putin is, you know, just angry and determined to just beat them into submission, kill as many civilians as possible. It's not going to break the Ukrainians, but it's unnecessary, terrible cost of human life.

50:52Kara Swisher:Where we could have had a win. Where we could have had a win there. Yeah, literally we could have helped the Ukrainians end the Ukrainian war by helping them defend themselves. And he would have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize. I think, you know, I'm the one, I said this months ago. I said, if he got an honorable peace with Ukraine, they don't have to give up any property. They can go back to running their country. I'd nominate him for the peace prize. But he's more interested in his relationship with Putin. I don't know all the reasons for that. But, you know, he wants Putin's favor even more than he wants a Nobel Peace Prize.

51:24Kara Swisher:You would nominate him. Can you tell the—I don't know if you're willing to tell this story, but that picture of you and Obama laughing, which is the second meme that's taken off. What precisely were you telling him right then when you were laughing for people? It's so funny. Well, you know, I was sitting behind him at the opening of their, you know, very impressive Obama Presidential Center in Chicago. And I hope people get to go visit and come visit our presidential center. I mean, presidential centers really try to tell the history that Trump and others don't want you to hear. So we were sitting there.

51:58I was sitting behind him, and Michelle Obama was giving this incredibly clever speech, touting all of Barack's many accomplishments. And then, you know, she got to, and, of course, you received a Nobel Peace Prize. And I burst into laughter. He started to giggle. I poked him in the back, and I said, oh, my God, I am sure Trump is watching this. He thinks he's now in the third circle of hell. I mean, the way that she just tweaked him about the Nobel Peace Prize, and he goes, yeah, I hope he is. It was great.

52:34Kara Swisher:So the two of you had that moment. Do you like your little memes, your little Obama memes? I do. I do. I mean, it's fun for me because, you know, I never know what might become a meme. I'm just out there living my life, and all of a sudden there's a meme. But the first meme was with me in sunglasses looking at my BlackBerry, I think, 100 years ago. Like, fuck you. That was the fuck you meme. On a plane, yeah. And two young men did that meme. And I thought it was so funny. I invited them to the State Department so that I could meet them so we could take a picture. I said, here, we'll have a real picture.

53:08So, yeah, I get a kick out of it. You get a lot of memes. I have a lot of memes, yeah. Some are good. Some are not so good. But, you know, it kind of goes with, you know, the life that I lead.

53:18Kara Swisher:Yeah, I like the one of Trump looming behind you memes. Oh, my God. That was so bizarre. You know, people still talk to me about that. I mean, I literally. It was disturbing. I wish you had turned around and said, what are you doing? Yeah, you know, I've thought about that a hundred thousand times, as you might guess. And it was, I was thinking about it in real time because he's looming over me. Because he's tall. And he's tall and he's bulky and, you know, he's got a big, you know, physical presence. And so I'm thinking to myself as I'm also trying to answer questions, I'm thinking, okay, if I turn on him and say, what are you doing or back off, does that look like I can't handle him?

54:02Does that look like I am rattled? Does that look like I am a woman who shouldn't be in the Oval Office? If I ignore it, how does that approach? How do people feel that that is communicating? So I ignored it. I mean, that was what I eventually decided to do because I didn't want to look either like I was being made to be nervous. I think he was trying to actually provoke something out of me. Yeah, he was. He was. And I wasn't going to give him that. But in retrospect, there could have been some, you know, great. Good stuff.

54:34Kara Swisher:Yeah. Good pushbacks. What the fuck, you creep? Yeah, exactly. Back off, you creep. Back off, you creep. All right, Madam Secretary, let's go on a quick break. We'll be right back.

54:50Kara Swisher:Hey, girl, it's Teffy. This week on Teffy Talks, we're talking about Nantucket banning influencers, the historic Brandi Melville TikTok fallout of 2026, and RFK Jr.'s hot summer diet tips. Guess what? It involves raccoon genitals. Yay! If you're not already following the show, find us everywhere at Teffy Talks. But RFK, don't come looking for me. Subscribe on YouTube and all the podcast platforms and Instagram and TikTok so you can share with your other work bestie. Be honest. Is it RFK Jr.?

55:33Kara Swisher:Democratic Socialists keep winning primary races. In Michigan, Abdel El-Sayed, not in the DSA, but endorsed by them, just won a fiercely fought Senate primary. President Trump appears worried enough about the DSA to have started conflating some things. I would be the greatest communist in history. I'd be right up. Free rent for the rest of your life. What they don't say is that you'll be living in squalor in 12 months. The Trump administration has raised the specter of the far left in various ways during Trump's second term. But the recent arrest of an American communist in Spain, what year is it?

56:07At the request of the American government, is a more concrete step. Coming up on Today Explained from Vox, real communist threat or new red scare? Today Explained drops every weekday.

56:29Kara Swisher:Presidential races are always messy, but 2028 is shaping up to be our messiest presidential campaign yet. There are a ton of names that are rumored to be thinking about throwing their hat in the ring. All righty. Here we got Trump. We got Kamala Harris. We have Marjorie Taylor Greene. So this week on America Actually, I wanted to hold a little fantasy draft. Of course, we got to have AOC on the list and stud George Clooney. And to do that, I want to invite two of the messiest people I know. Vox journalist and podcast host Kara Swisher. Let me tell you, he has the charm of a Cybertruck. and independent journalist and political commentator Don Lemon.

57:11Kara Swisher:This could go really fast because I got boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm sure Kara's the same way. I'm Estet Herndon, and this is America Actually. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

57:27Kara Swisher:Okay, Madam Secretary, we're back. Big picture question for you. What's the biggest story that isn't getting enough attention? I think it's how we're going to govern AI. I mean, there's attention being given to it, Cara, but there's no real action. You know, this government, other governments are wringing their hands. They know that we are heading into a totally unknown world. If I were able to wave a magic wand, I would be having literally a huge diplomatic effort with experts and, you know, really other people from different parts of the economy besides AI, literally working on treaties and covenants and rules and standards and basically bring the world together against, you know, the tech companies because, you know, there's no way to deal with what is coming at us unless we have some kind of global response.

58:23And that's just not happening. I mean, there are conversations, you know, the CEOs were in Washington yesterday talking to Trump, but, you know, he wants to take pieces of their equity. He doesn't want to govern in any effective way about what they're producing other than things that might be totally scary to national security. But I just feel like there needs to be some global effort to try to get ahead of this insofar as

58:49Kara Swisher:possible. So this is the story. I think data centers are the proxy politically for people's worries about it. And can you blame people? I mean, these big, hulking, concrete buildings that make all kinds of noise and suck up water and get put onto your grid and maybe raise your prices. I mean, these questions need to be looked at. I mean, I was approving of Kathy Hochul when she, you know, put on a moratorium. Let's figure out what this means before just, you know, willy-nilly going ahead. So I think people's instincts who are showing up at city council and county commissions and all kinds of political forums to say, no, we don't want this, or at least tell us what we're getting and how to make sure that it's not going to be harmful.

59:36I think people have a good instinct about this.

59:39Kara Swisher:Yeah, a mayor of Lansing was telling he had a good deal and the people wouldn't accept it because they're so angry at it. You know, you can't even do a good deal. It was, you know, ecological. We don't really, does the mayor of Lansing really know what a good deal is? Wouldn't it be good if we took a hard look at our very creaky grid and said, here are things you have to do in order to buttress the grid. I mean, yeah. Yeah. So a good deal. It's bigger. Local people shouldn't be stuck with figuring this out. It's too big. It's too big. And the issues are national and even global. Yeah, absolutely.

1:00:12Kara Swisher:I yelled at Tony Blinken at a dinner many years ago saying we have to have global AI standards. And he just nodded at the time. From local to global, right? Global. I said It's global. It's a global issue. Yeah. All right. Moving on. What are the three most important qualities a Democratic presidential candidate needs to have in 2028? That he or she can win the Electoral College. That is the only quality. And because we don't know what's going to appeal to the electorate. Will the Democratic primary voters want a relief after Trump, a counterpoint to Trump? Will they want a fighter, somebody who is just, you know, fists up all the time?

1:00:51We don't know. So seeing who gets through the Democratic primary is right now. It's going to crumble. There's a lot of people. It's totally unpredictable. But then you've got to be able to win. And it's, from my personal experience, you don't, that doesn't mean getting more votes. It means winning the Electoral College. And that is hard for Democrats. And it's something that a lot of Democratic primary voters are understandably not thinking about. You know, I'm going to vote for who I like. I'm going to vote for who's expressing my anger. I'm going to vote for, you know, the person that, you know, I think can be the best fighter.

1:01:28All of that's great. But somewhere in the back of your mind, Eunice, can this person win the Electoral College? And at the end of the day, if we're going to win, that's what matters.

1:01:38Kara Swisher:That's all that will matter. It's all that will matter. It's a man or a woman or. No, no. I don't think we should be preemptively disqualifying anybody. Let everybody get out and compete and see who emerges. And I hope it's somebody who can be a good president, not just win, but can also going into office be prepared like we were talking about earlier. Clean up. Clean up, fix things. You know, there's going to be so much to fix. I mean, first, get rid of all of the holdovers. Do not let anybody hang around in some small office somewhere who can literally subvert your program and you don't even know that person's there.

1:02:21And I will predict that, you know, Trump and his minions are going to try to, you know, put people. They're going to try to move people from political appointments to so-called civil service appointments, although they're trying to destroy the civil service. So people are going to have to be really searching to make sure that they are not going to be literally subverted from within the government.

1:02:42Kara Swisher:That's a really good point. That's a really smart point. Very quickly, is there any Republican candidate you're looking at that you think is trouble? No, I mean, obviously everybody's talking about, you know, Vance and Rubio. I don't know, but I think there'll be a lot of Republicans running. The real question is, what will Trump do to try to hold on to power? Will he stay? You know, when he goes around putting that, you know, third-term hat on, you always have to take Trump at his tell. You know, this is a tell. He would love to serve a third term. Or at least he'd love to have the power of a third term if he can install somebody as the, you know.

1:03:25That's a good point. President that he controls. And so who's he going to pick? Who's he going to be behind? And is he looking for an opportunity to try to upend that election? You know, he's acted like he didn't care about the midterms, but he has$400 million sitting in a super PAC. And he's got Elon Musk. His buddies, like Elon and others, have said they're going to spend whatever it takes to try to prevent the Democrats from winning in the midterm. So is he going to be very active, spend a lot of money to try to prevent the Democrats from winning or keep their margin at a very small number and then just basically do everything he can to undermine them?

1:04:11Is he going to want the contrast of a Democratic Congress that he can play off against? I mean, I don't know what their game theory is about the upcoming elections, but I do know he doesn't want to give up power. So what is he going to do? Is it a proxy? Is it him? Does he figure out some bizarre way to get Todd Blanche, the attorney general, to side with him? The five of the Supreme Court justices that are, you know, movement conservatives to side with him? Who knows? But I think we have to watch all of that.

1:04:44Kara Swisher:Well, that means, you know, Obama can run again. Bill can. Well, that's what we've been joking. We say, okay, so Obama can go for a third term. My husband can go for a third term. I mean, you know, okay, if you're going to go for third terms, let's look at everybody who's eligible. Yeah, let's do it. But he would, like, lose his mind. He would lose his mind, although it would be amusing in a different universe. All right, we're going to do a few rapid fire questions for you that are more fun for you. All right, what TV show are you watching right now? Well, I'm about to watch the new season of Ted Lasso.

1:05:15So I love Ted Lasso and Jason Sudeikis and Hannah Waddington. Waddingham. It's Waddingham, actually. Waddingham. Right. And cast members were at the Liberty Game when I was there because this season he is convinced to coach a woman's team. So I am really excited about it. I think it starts tonight or tomorrow. I mean, it's going to be a lot of fun. And we need some, you know, some positive, good feeling going on again. He's there a lot, Jason.

1:05:47Kara Swisher:I ran into him at the Liberty game. Yeah, he's always there. Yeah, I had a great conversation with him. He's really excited about this season. Speaking of Hannah, did you see Ride or Die? It kind of reminds me of you, Hilary. I haven't, no. But she is amazing. I really— She is. I like her. She's a tall drink of water. Yeah, she is a tall drink of water, but she is so much fun. She has a great sense of humor. Watch Ride or Die. Okay, I got ride or die. I'm writing it down. Ride or die. You will love it. It's so funny. I finished it last night. All right, you're the grandmother of three. What do your grandkids call you and what's your favorite thing you do with them?

1:06:19Kara Swisher:I see you're wearing a necklace with your granddaughter's name, actually. Yeah, well, also my grandsons. All three of them are on this little necklace. They call me Grandma, and I just like doing anything with them. I like, you know, hanging out with them. I like swimming. I like hiking. I like watching funny television shows with them or whatever they're interested in. I like reading with them. I mean, literally any time I get to spend with them is, you know, just a delight for me. It is the only experience in life that is not overrated. It is really worth waiting for. Do they know who you are?

1:06:55Kara Swisher:Do they have a sense of who you are? I think, you know, I remember my grandson found a book in his school library that was about me, one of these little paperback books about my life. And he checked it out and he brought it home and he said, you have a book about you. So I think they know that their grandfather was president. I think they know, you know, that I was, you know, a senator and secretary of state. I'm not sure they fully grasp it, but they find it, you know, somewhat. confounding. When did this happen to you? What did you do? Right. Absolutely. So Bowen Yang is the latest star to step into the role of Mary Todd Lincoln, speaking of first ones.

1:07:38Kara Swisher:He'd be good at that role. Yeah. And oh, Mary, if asked, would you serve? No. No. Yeah. Okay. I mean, the amount of physical comedy that Mary does, wow. Yeah. I'd have to work out for a year in order to get ready. You're looking good, by the way. Well, thank you. I always play myself on TV and movies, but you've had a lot of people portray you over the years. Who's your favorite Hillary Clinton? I really don't have one, you know, because I try not to watch them, so I've never seen anybody portray me. No, so you don't have a favorite? I guess it would be Kate McKinnon, right? Because you did appear with her.

1:08:17Well, you know, I was thinking of the more dramatic presentation. I loved Kate McKinnon. I love her as a person, and I thought she did a great job as me.

1:08:30Kara Swisher:So you don't watch any of the other Hillary Clintons? I couldn't resist. I don't? One of the Murdochs told me he didn't watch Succession. I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him. I bet they did, or else they had somebody watch and summarize it for them. You didn't watch any of them. I've watched all your Hillary Clintons. So who's your favorite Hillary Clinton? Emma Thompson. It's not my favorite movie, but I thought Emma Thompson was good. She's a terrific actress. Yeah, I would say she did a good job. She sort of issued it. That's okay. I'll put that on the list for, you know, I'll watch it in the next decade of my life.

1:09:02Kara Swisher:Can I watch it with you? Sure. We can hang out. I like popcorn. A little bit of butter, not too much. Let's go with Kate McKinnon on that one. All right, Madam Secretary, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

1:09:20Kara Swisher:Okay, we're back. Do you have a prediction for us? Yes, I do predict that we will take back the House. I predict that, even with all of the obstacles. And I predict we have a slightly better than 50-50 chance to take back the Senate, even with all of the obstacles. All right. That's a good prediction. I'm going to make a very brief prediction. David Ellison wrote an op-ed in the New York Times saying, Democratic state AGs are fighting him in court because of false perception of his politics. I don't really care. I don't like the essay very much. But the antitrust trial is what he wanted to start in November and Paramount did.

1:09:55Kara Swisher:The judge said for March. I think there's going to be a settlement. There has to be. This is economic, starting to get economic. What do you think will be in the settlement? Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't know. I don't know. It depends on, I think Bonta, Rob Bonta has played this rather well and will probably be governor of California at some point. I mean, I think he's done it. Well, he's been a good attorney general, and I like him. I think he surprised them. I thought they were arrogant. And I think, I don't know, maybe spinning off the cable networks, spinning off CNN. It's hard because if they get rid of CNN, they make a lot of money from CNN right now.

1:10:26Kara Swisher:Really? They make money from CNN? They do,$700 million. It's profitable. So they need the money because of the$80 billion in debt. It's a real financial. Even as people as rich as the Ellisons, they're going to have to give up a lot of money to own something that they may not want to own. So you think there'll be a settlement between now and the start of a trial in March? Yeah, wouldn't you? You're a lawyer. What would you do? I think, doesn't he have a breakup fee or a delay fee? Yes, by June. Yeah, there's a delay fee and a breakup fee. Yeah, the delay fee. I think the delay fee starts in October.

1:11:00So, I mean, he's going to be paying a lot of money because he can't close the deal. So there may be economic reasons.

1:11:07Kara Swisher:Yeah, it's$1.2 billion by the trial itself. And then there's a$7 billion per guppy. But that's not a lot of money to them. But it is a lot of money, given Oracle stock has declined rather precipitously. And there may be, as you note, an AI shakeout. So we'll see. I think they're going to have to settle. Yeah. Well, I am worried about the AI shakeup. I'm worried about the debt. I'm worried about all of that, which is kind of why I want to see some legitimate effort taken to kind of figure out how to normalize or regularize this market before. And get people to like it because the polling is terrible.

1:11:43Kara Swisher:The polling is just bad. Well, people are scared. You know, they're scared they're going to lose their jobs. They're scared that it's going to take over the world. I mean, so either people are just going to live with this fear and we're going to just go full speed ahead into whatever the future is, or we're going to try to at least have a process that might make a difference. That's what I'm for. Yeah, there could be a real stock decline, which will hurt everybody. And, of course, probably Trump more than anybody, if you think about it, because he's sort of put his whole lot in with AI in a way that feels corrupt, I guess.

1:12:17Well, I think, you know, you mentioned the data centers and one of the candidates, well, my friend, you know, Sherrod Brown, who's running in Ohio, he's now calling his opponent the face of data centers in Ohio. Yeah, it's working. Because he's been all in on data centers. So the political issues are going to get played out one way or the other. But at the end of the day, we still need some kind of governance mechanism, some kind of, you know. That is correct. Evaluation of the upsides and downsides, some restraint on what they can and should do or not.

1:12:49Kara Swisher:So that's my hope. Such common sense, Hillary Clinton. Oh, I know. I'm so out of date. You might have been a good president. I'm so old-fashioned. I mean, truly, really. I'm just a walking anachronism, you know. I believe in all of these things that I still think would work if people actually paid attention. Yeah. Well, Hillary, it's time for you to start to speak up more. As you know, I think that. Anyway, we need all the good ideas we can get in this country going forward, I think, in a lot of ways. Well, we're both going to have to get out there and talk as much common sense as we can. No one's putting Hillary in the corner.

1:13:26Kara Swisher:Not me. Nope. No way. Anyway, you've been wonderful. I really appreciate it. I just want to know, we want to hear from you listeners how you like this. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. It's a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to PIVOT since got free August. Hilary, I think you've done an amazing job. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. And again, thank you so much for joining us, Madam Secretary. Thank you. Thank you so much, Cara.

1:13:58Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Anderdot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Kate Gallagher and Brad Sylvester. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business, Hillary Clinton, 2028.

1:14:28Thank you.