Midterm Map Wars, AirPods Revamp, and Trump Phone Grift

21:16to get married. A liquor license.

21:20Kara Swisher:Oh, very funny. I don't think that's sexist. See, I think it's profane and vulgar, but I don't think it's sexist. I don't think it's funny is the issue I have. No, it's not that funny. It's not that funny. Anyway, these redistricting, I think he cannot fight the polls. The polls are so bad. Everyone doesn't like him. That's one thing I did, the message I gave to people. I was like, he is widely, he has his group that like him, but I got to tell you, you got to watch the cracks in MAGA and you got to watch the polling, which is everyone is sick to fuck with this guy. And he is cognitively disabled.

21:52Kara Swisher:I'm going to say that in every single show until past the 2026 election. That's the cold comfort that we as progressives are serving ourselves up this morning. And that is that Trump can't rig the maps, but he can't rig his approval rating. It will infuriate people. That's the hope that basically segregating voting again with taking away, neutering certain parts of the Voter's Rights Acts, this ridiculous, corrupt gerrymandering that'll come back to Hahnemann vibes. And my fear is the following. Okay, tell me, because I have a fear too. Well, I believe that America is still highly sexist, highly luxist, and opts for a person who may be wrong more often than not, but is effective versus people who are right and ineffective.

22:43And this is the key distinction between the Democrats and the Republicans right now, is the Republicans are wrong in being highly effective and Democrats are right and virtuous and totally fucking ineffective.

22:55Kara Swisher:I'm not so sure. This whole thing with the ballrooms and the weird thing with the weird title base and et cetera, it's just, it's getting like - I don't think people vote based on a ballroom. No, I know they don't, but it's a part of the whole crazy old man thing. One thing that I will say, I was with a bunch of cyber experts, and the two things they did point out, I think correctly, is one, the Russians are preparing to attack during the midterms, you know, in Trump's favor, as recent studies have shown they did, obviously, against both Clinton and Harris. I'm sorry, they're going to attack. You know, online, like a lot of online.

23:29Kara Swisher:Oh, cyber attack, I see. It's not just cyber and information fuck-upper-y, essentially. And then the second thing is, I sat So one guy who's an American who was talking about who's obsessed with Steve Bannon, and he feels they're going to try to, and Trump has sort of talked about it a little bit, go to 80 districts that matter and put martial law in place or create all manner of ice and Proud Boys, etc. If you listen to Steve Bannon, he does talk about this. And I think a couple of the cyber people were paying a lot of attention to Steve Bannon and what he's doing. And, you know, that sack of, that meat sack of rumpled whatever is very effective in many ways, speaking of effective.

24:12Kara Swisher:Although I can't believe he keeps hanging on, looking at what he does. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, a game-changing feature coming to Apple's AirPods.

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25:08Kara Swisher:Trusted by more than 60 % of the AM, Law 100, and leading Fortune 500 legal teams, Harvey is the AI operating system designed specifically for legal work, helping teams move faster with greater precision and confidence. Harvey, AI tailored for law. Learn more at Harvey.ai.

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26:33Kara Swisher:Support for Pivot comes from the Freedom from Religion Foundation. Quick reminder, America started a rebellion. Yeah, we fired a king claiming divine authority. And then wrote a constitution with no mention of God. Which is a big deal. The whole separation of church and state thing, as you know. And those lines are blurring. You see it in things like America Praise event on May 17th, where the government starts uniting with religion. Which typically or historically doesn't end well for freedom. And the Freedom From Religion Foundation is working to protect that line. So help us protect the First Amendment.

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27:32Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news. This is really interesting. Apple's report reached the late stages of development for new AirPods that include tiny cameras designed for AI features. Who said they were going to put cameras? You and I have talked about this. The cameras would help Siri understand what's around you so you could ask questions about objects, landmarks, or directions in real time. The new AirPods are expected to look similar to AirPod Pro, but with slightly longer stems to fit the camera hardware. This is astonishing. I think Apple originally wanted to launch the AI wearable sooner, but delays in its upgraded Siri pushed the timeline back.

28:05Kara Swisher:You will, of course, lose 50 pairs of these, Scott. 50? 50. By the way, this has no pods in it because I can't find them. Oh, my God. Jesus. I can attest in Scott's New York apartment, there's so many AirPod cases everywhere. And there's like one AirPod in them. Some are never been opened. It's really funny. I love those things. So talk about this because they're obviously privacy because a lot of people have been pushing back on the Meta glasses, which sell just okay. They're popular but not that popular. So talk a little bit about this because there is a privacy issue here, like people looking out.

28:44Kara Swisher:At the same time, it's inevitable you're going to have these heads-up displays in some way. And this is a version of heads-up display that isn't in your face, which I think is more effective that it's in your ear, a camera in your ear. I love your thoughts on this because you have big thoughts on visual, like heads-up displays. Well, as much as I hated mixed reality headsets and the Oculus, I love this. And it goes back to a very anthropological thing. What is harder for people to adapt to when they lose their vision or they lose their hearing? A vision, I guess, but not seeing. Hearing, okay, all right.

29:17As a matter of fact, when your hearing goes, you stop processing words and you become more, this is going to sound strange. Well, it's not strange. People have a much more difficult time maintaining societal contact, relevance, and relationships when their hearing starts to go as opposed to their vision starting to go. Your hearing, the last sense to go when you die is hearing. You're supposed to, when people pass, you're supposed to keep telling them that you love them. because supposedly that's literally the last sense to go. And I think it's the most underrated of the senses. We have over-invested in visuals and under-invested in hearing.

29:54AirPods, if they were a distinct company, just AirPods would be a Fortune 50 company. And what is Apple doing here? They're turning your ears into eyes and sending the footage. Unfortunately, they might be sending the footage to Cupertino, but the AI wearable race is now happening. What's interesting, though, is it's not happening where people thought it was going to happen. It's happening in their ear canal. So Meta has Ray-Bans. Apple has AirPods. Google probably has some glass thing. I don't know what they're calling it this week.

30:24Kara Swisher:They originally had contact lenses. Remember, a long time, we broke a story about them working on contact lenses with visuals in them. But go ahead. The problem here, I think it's a great idea, and I'll buy one. The problem is the hardware at Apple, the hardware is always ready before the software. and they wanted to launch this sooner, but Siri is probably one of the worst tech products of the last 10 years. It is, it really is. And Apple, I mean, think about it. Apple has the world's best supply chain and the world's most embarrassing AI assistant. It is, it's so bad. I hate Siri. If you think about - I hate Siri.

31:01I mean, essentially, AirPods as they envision it right now with cameras is essentially, because of a very weak AI assistant overlay, it's like a Lamborghini chassis waiting for an engine that works. So the hardware will be the best looking hardware, the best operating hardware. The problem will be the AI overlay. And I told you what I believe.

31:25Kara Swisher:They have to get it right. I think they're going to shit can Siri and license it to someone else for tens of billions of dollars. Right. Yeah. Why not? Just make it good. Like I am constantly Siri call Scott or Siri, you know, text Scott or something. And it never works. It sometimes works. and it just, it should work every single fucking time. But what if it was Gemini? What would, Gemini needs to catch up. What would Gemini pay Tim Cook or the new guy to say, we're your default AI? Look, Siri, just talk to me, even though I didn't want to, go away, Siri. I think they're in the pole position here.

31:58I think the most elegant move to massively throw 10,$20 billion a year to the bottom line would be to have a bake-off and say, one of you is going to be the Intel inside of Apple.

32:10Kara Swisher:That's kind of a big thing to give up, though. But they're not good at it. Just like with maps. They're just not good at it. Well, search. They give it up in search and it worked out well for them. Search, yeah, exactly. Let me ask you a physical question. So when AirPods, people do not remember this. When AirPods first came out, people made fun of the look of it. You remember. You look like an alien. You look like you're wearing earrings for men. And then everyone just loves them, right? And they fall out of your ear. There was all manner. Now, if they're even longer with these stems, it could look odd.

32:38Kara Swisher:But it seems to me the best solution is the in-the-ear AirPod looking like things. Not over the ear, not around the neck, over the head, except, you know, I'm on an airplane. I wear, you know, a pair of really good noise-canceling headphones, but that's different. So you think that's okay. And the privacy issues, you don't have an issue with the people. It can see everybody, and it's recording, presumably. Well, that is a big issue. I haven't thought that through, right? because you're not supposed to be taking pictures of people's kids, the surveillance. Government. Government if you go into the White House.

33:14Uploading your data, your whereabouts. But no one creates tech hardware that is a better signaling device than Apple. And pulling out your iPhone, I've always said, pulling out your iPhone is like pulling out an Amex Black card, but for a billion people, not 10 million. It says that you get it. It says you're one of the seven most wealthiest people on the planet. And it says you're probably in the creative arts industry. It is incredible signaling. I wear my AirPods. If I'm at a conference and I just need to get somewhere without speaking to people or I'm just feeling exhausted by people, I just put my AirPods on and I act like I'm talking to somebody, like I'm speaking to myself.

33:55Kara Swisher:I know that trick. But let me just say one of the things. I'd like to not look at my iPhone anymore. I use my watch quite a bit, but it's not good enough. and I use my, if my AirPods were better, I would not pull my phone out at all. 100%. You know, that's the thing. So I think this is really interesting. Another interesting piece of tech, and we're very tech heavy today, SpaceX chip making project in Texas will have an initial price tag of at least$55 billion and could eventually grow to$119 billion. According to a public hearing notice, the project called TerraFab will create chips to power AI for SpaceX and Tesla.

34:28Kara Swisher:I think this is a smart move by Elon. SpaceX is asking for tax breaks for the project, of course, which will be discussed at a hearing next month. And Texas will definitely give it to them because that's what Texas does. They bend over, speaking of bending over. SpaceX is, of course, preparing to go public with one of the largest IPO offerings in June. To me, more than the robotics focus, this is really important. I mean, the way they do energy is sort of rapacious to the people living in the areas they're living in. And it's getting a lot of pushback. But the idea of your own chips, all these companies really have to be in that game, seems like.

35:04Kara Swisher:And it's important. Elon really does know this. I don't think he's as highly technical as he makes himself out to be, but he does understand this is the heart of it. I agree. This is a really smart move. And it's one of the most interesting. And it's also, quite frankly, it's fundraising. It's going to be a big slide in his roadshow for SpaceX IPO. they you know they're talking about a 60 to 120 billion dollar chip fabrication plan terra fab and it would be bigger than the the biggest one in the u.s right now is a 65 billion dollar plan from tsmc so the world's most advanced chip maker with 50 years of experience elon is trying to out tsmc tsmc so i it it creates he's very good he and trump are both obsessed with being in your fucking face every day, and they're very good at it.

35:53And so this is, it may, I'm not, I think it's going to happen. The guy is a big thinker. Exactly.

35:59Kara Swisher:Like XAI went nowhere. It may or may not. He may not be very good at this. It doesn't matter. It is a great, this guy is a big thinker. He's bold. He's pulled off some incredibly big, this is the right direction. Yeah. Let me say he did, he did surrender XAI by doing the anthropic deal. Just everybody's left. He's not going to win here. He could win in this. And I think he probably might. This is a better focus for him. Speaking of focuses firm, French prosecutors are summoning Elon and X's former CEO, Linda Yaccarino. Oh, Yaccarino, where did you go? She's doing some health company. To face preliminary criminal charges into X, the investigation includes charges of child pornography and sexualized deepfake.

36:38Kara Swisher:It was interesting when I was in Europe, they were like, oh, he's not going to go anywhere. I don't really care. I'm glad a government is doing it, right? Because ours certainly wouldn't. And they should face an investigation of what was happening there at X, doing all this. Who made the decisions about these child pornography and sexualized deep fade creations? I'd like to know, and I'm glad a government is pursuing it. I don't even care if they win. I'm glad they're doing it. That's my feeling. There you go. And more power to them. At some point, big tech executives, their flight pattern is going to look like gerrymandered because they're not going to be able to go to the airspace.

37:12The world, we forgive these founders, especially during the Trump administration for the economic growth.

37:21Kara Swisher:Yeah, these sociopaths is the word I would use. Yeah, but we are net gainers from big tech. We just are in the US. They still should pay the price for stuff like this. I agree. That's not to say we shouldn't hold them accountable. It's not to say they shouldn't be subject to the same rules and regulation as other industries. But if you had a red button to push and do away with all big tech, you wouldn't want to do it. And for all the problems and externalities, there isn't a single nation in the world that's presented with the opportunity to say, put your headquarters here. The problem is, you know, the big tech, I don't think Italy is a net gainer from big tech.

37:56The U.S. is, but I'm not sure other nations are.

37:59Kara Swisher:Yeah, they are. And so a lot of these nations are doing the math and saying, you've gutted our media companies, you don't pay that many taxes here. You haven't really increased employment a lot. You're just creating tremendous disruption. And sexualized deep fakes. Yeah. And also you now appear to be an existential threat to our kids' emotional and physical wellbeing. We're not down with, the idolatry of innovators for a lot of good reasons and some bad has totally kind of infected or overwhelmed the US. The worm has turned a little bit, AI is way down, people are realizing what a negative impact this has had on our children.

38:37And then going much bigger, it's manifesting itself in terms of being ground zero for frustrations around income inequality. But these other nations just aren't that impressed by these guys. They're like, okay, you broke a law, we're gonna charge you.

38:49Kara Swisher:Yeah, I like the activity. And I think, as you said, a long time ago, early in our relationship, someone has to do a perp walk on whether it's chatbots and kids dying or something like that. Someone has to go to jail. They won't. But I like the effort by these governments that I don't think it's, I think someone needs to investigate how they made these decisions about sexualized deep fakes and child pornography on whatever service that doesn't and what they did to stop it or not stop it. I think it's important for public to know. There was a guy, I think it was a McKinsey partner on the board of Goldman, and he took insider information and traded on it.

39:25He went to jail. Think about what's happening in the Trump administration around oil prices. Think about what's happening in tech in terms of teen self-cutting and depression among teen and being weaponized. You said you expect the Russians to cyber attack us. They've been cyber attacking us. Yes, I know. They use these porous platforms that are totally focused on shareholder value. They create lists of people who are pro-Ukraine or people who are polarizing. And they infect their comments and the people's perception of them. They diminish their credibility and they create fights everywhere to try and atomize us.

40:03We're attacked every day. And the ultimate Trojan horse is big tech who charges them a small fee to go sit inside the Trojan horse and start attacking America from within.

40:14Kara Swisher:That's correct. And by the way, they'll shift in a dime. I don't know if you noticed, suddenly David Sachs is like, Anthropoc is going to be really successful after needlessly attacking. I heard all of a sudden he likes Anthropoc. Oh, God. He's such a... Let me just tell you, we were right about that one. Like immediately when they're back, because he's losing the fight over unfettered AI and they're just better. That's all. Anyway, he was lying the first time about when they attacked him. And for a government official to do that to an American company without any proof is really grotesque. I don't mind if there's proof, but in that case, it was because he wanted to feather his own nest.

40:50Kara Swisher:Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll check in on the Trump phone. Speaking of, dare I say it, fraud.

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42:00I'm Midge Furse, two-time NWSL champion, championship MVP, and forward for the U.S. Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an Elite Athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

42:47This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Tank Sinatra, the meme king, with over 15 million followers across Tank's good news, influencers in the wild, and his personal account. Tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is, how much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes, and how meme culture, think Preparation H, starter packs, and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping how we think about money and value. Get ready for a conversation that'll change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth, and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes.

43:26Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash yourrichbff.

43:34Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. It's been almost a year since the Trump phone was announced And there is still no sign the device is anywhere close to shipping, but that hasn't stopped Trump Mobile website from continuing to accept a hundred dollar deposit for the phone. The fine print notes are preorder deposit provides only a conditional opportunity if the Trump Mobile later elects to offer the device for sale. And while the phone was initially touted as being made in America, the site now describes as being shaped by American innovation. It looks like these aren't coming and that people have lost their money, which we said would happen.

44:04Kara Swisher:This is exactly, you know, I'm not sure where the phone ranks among various Trump grifts. Another Trump venture where things weren't looking so great. Trump media just posted a net loss of$406 million. And I think they made under a million dollars in revenue driven largely by unrealized losses in crypto holdings. And while they're doing all this grift, the Pentagon has released a batch of, quote, never before seen UFO files on a dedicated government website. The files include details from over 400 reports from the 40s in recent years, including several Apollo missions. President Tope touted the administration, transparency and truth social posts, saying now the people can decide for themselves what the hell is going on.

44:42Kara Swisher:We cannot decide. There are just more lights. Hey, I can get more out of just like a book I buy at the airport about these things. So it's just a lot of, you know, hand-waving all over the place. And grift. I mean, the Trump phone, which Scott and I both said was never going to happen, is not going to happen, people. And that's 60 million bucks or something like that. I think that's how much they collected. It's grift. First off, this wasn't a down payment on a product. It was a donation. I don't think anyone's going to care. I think the likelihood that he was ever going to have a competent phone probably didn't escape these folks.

45:15As it relates to aliens, I'm convinced that aliens have been monitoring us, including all of our media. And if we're really honest, about two-thirds of our media is porn. So I think this explains that the aliens aren't using anal probes for information. They're just trying to speak our language.

45:34Kara Swisher:Can you ask me a question? Do you believe in aliens? I'm just curious. When you think about UFOs and you see these pictures, and let me tell you, everybody, I looked at some of these pictures. They look like the pictures you always see. bright lights, things moving across the sky, unexplainable phenomena, often lights, you know, or lights moving in a pattern or something like that, which could be explained lots of different ways. Do you actually believe in aliens, sir? This is going to sound like I'm on edibles, but I'm not, but I believe in everything. What do I mean by that? If you believe, well, there's some logic here, I think.

46:06Kara Swisher:Like Loch Ness Monster? Well, no. Most astrophysicists believe it appears the infinite space theory that space never ends. So space never ends and it's regenerating and the space-time continuum curves and space never ends. That means everything exists. That means everything that's happened has happened before. Because if space never ends, that means the infinite possibilities of everything exist and everything that you can imagine is out there. I need an edible at this point. Okay. That means we exist all the time forever? You and I? No, it means that if there's an infinite number of universes, at some point there's a universe very similar to ours with similar lifespans, similar earth and gas and organisms and similar carers and scots.

46:54And if you don't believe, if it's not exactly like it, just keep going through infinity and eventually you'll get to it. So the fact that -

47:01Kara Swisher:This is like the plot of interstellar or something like that. Well, if space is infinite, and I'd like to hear an argument for how it couldn't be, then of course there's a galaxy and another alien intelligence that can send probes here. Having said that, I don't think they'd be that interested with us. Yeah, we're so boring. Do I believe they exist? Yes. Do I believe the ones we have seen are actual alien intelligence in life? I don't think so. Maybe they're flashes from another universe. Maybe that's what we're seeing, lights that maybe they, you know, like in all the sci-fi or the Marvel movies, all the different universes, suddenly the sky gets ripped open and one of the universes comes in to this one.

47:39Kara Swisher:You have to close the, it's always having to close a fucking portal in those movies, which I never understand, but I vaguely do. I think we should ask aliens to hunt down all the people on Jeffrey Epstein's island. I think we could call it Alien vs. Predators. They show them. Ha, ha, ha, ha. I would like the aliens to arrive just about now. That's what I would like them to do. You ready for it? I would like them to come now. It's time. It's time. It's time. Either Jesus or them. I don't care. Jesus needs to come back or they do. I don't, either one. I'm good with anybody showing up and like getting our, that's the distraction we need.

48:15Kara Swisher:And, and I would like. That's what this says, Kara. Yeah, of distraction, of course. This was meant to be a distraction. Of course. Of course. Absolutely. Anyway, well, we wish you will come, Ali. All I got to say is that females invade the earth and kidnap men with large cocks. You're in no danger. And I'm just writing this to say goodbye. Oh, can I have your stuff? Can I have your stuff? Can I have your stuff? You have my stuff. I show up to my house in New York and I'll be like down two cashmere sweaters. I know you've been stealing my sweaters. Yeah, that's true. I have your stuff. They're in Brooklyn right now.

48:49Kara Swisher:Anyway, you can stay at Brooklyn anytime. And you'll never come to Brooklyn, which is fantastic. I've been there twice. Both times to go to the new Soho house over there. That's it. Alex and I will be in Brooklyn. That's where we're going. If you're not on the island called Manhattan, there's no reason to ever visit the Northeast. Well, Legs and I will be in Manhattan on Tuesday. The Northeast is so overrated except for a seven-by-two-mile island. That's it. Let me just say, Legs is going to be in Brooklyn with me and he's going to eat. You know, tonight, by the way, let me just say, it's Amanda's birthday today.

49:18Kara Swisher:And happy birthday, Amanda. We're going out for oysters tonight in D.C., and I'm literally going to have to take out a small loan because Alex is coming. Last time we took him for a sushi, it was like$400. Anyway, one more quick break and we get back wins and fails.

49:42Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, wins and fails. I feel like I should go first. You go first. Speaking of conspiracy theories, this is one that I find very troubling. And look, listen, I even kind of believe it. One in four Americans think the April shooting at the White House Correspondence Center was staged, according to a new survey. Roughly one in three Democrat respondents said they believe the event was staged compared to one in eight Republicans. The same thing with the other. A lot of like Margella Green, all these people think the shooting in Butler was staged. I just feel the falling off of assuming, and this does go back to Kennedy assassination and before.

50:16Kara Swisher:There's always been a conspiracy theory-minded populace we have. But it's just a little, it's slightly depressing because like, remember when you said, I thought Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself? Just like nobody believes anything. And I find it really depressing that our shared, like I get conspiracy theories and I see why you might think this. And I hate myself for even saying, oh, maybe it was, right? without any proof. And I find that feeling in me really gross. I have to say the conspiracy theory minded. But you become more that way as you live in this world where AI and social media and everything else just sort of spins your brain in a way that's really gross.

50:56Kara Swisher:And speaking of clarity, I have to say, one thing is, first of all, Matt Damon on Saturday Night Live was superb and he looks like he's great in The Odyssey. He was superb. That was a superb show. SNL is really bringing it. He's a really solid actor. Anyway, but I have to give, talking about clarity, Chelsea Handler at the Kevin Hart roast was fucking super. So was Tom Brady, by the way. But let me say, Chelsea Handler handed it back to the MAGA sort of adjacent comedian bros. You love that. I thought of you when I saw that. Let's listen to her call out the comedians who went to the Saudi Comedy Festival.

51:30Now that your favorite leader is making the draft mandatory, I assume that all of you will be signing up to go fight in Iran.

51:36Kara Swisher:Or do you tough talking pussies only go to the Middle East for comedy festivals?

51:44Kara Swisher:She had so many lines. That was a nicer one. And then she had some choice words for Tony Hinchcliffe. And she said, Tony, Tony is what happens when women don't have safe access to abortion care, which I thought was funny. And then also, like, who's who's who's warming Joe Rogan's balls in their mouth now that you're here tonight? He looked sick the way she attacked him. And it was so good. She did such a good job. I have to say, Chelsea, I love you. Marry me. I can say, so good. She was fantastic. And they just, he was so uncomfortable. Like, they can't take a joke, these people. They can dish it out, but they can't take it.

52:19Kara Swisher:And Chelsea put them down. Put them down. And I love to see it. Anyway, your thoughts? I agree with you on that. So my wins and fails. My win is Mayor Momdani's pied-a-terre tax. tax. I'm not even going to get into whether the city of New York should be cutting costs or spends too much money. I don't have enough domain expertise. I'm a resident of Florida. But the percentage of federal employees as a percentage of the population has steadily gone down. I've never bought that there's just waste fraud and abuse everywhere. And if we're going to get our fiscal house in order, do we need to cut spending and raise taxes?

52:58The answer is yes. So I'm just gonna talk about the raising taxes side of it. If you're gonna raise taxes, it feels to me that there's a very legitimate argument that the people who have done the best over the last 30 or 40 years are the very wealthy and specifically owners. And it's pretty basic. Productivity has gone up 45 degrees. Wages have gone flat. The delta between those two lines is trillions of dollars in value creation. And almost all of it has gone to the top one, if not the top 0.1%. So it seems to me that just basic math is it makes sense for the wealthiest among us to pay a disproportionate amount of incremental taxes needed to operate this great experiment called the U.S.

53:42to pay for our Navy to pay for food stamps. And the problem is, okay, so what do you do in New York if you need to raise revenues? Do you increase corporate taxes? The problem with that is, and Jamie Dimon pointed this out, J.P. Morgan has gone from 30 ,000 to 20 ,000 employees in New York in the last 10 years because it's a very expensive place to do business. It is.

54:01Kara Swisher:No question. Meanwhile, in Texas, it's gone from 10 ,000 employees to 30 ,000. So at some point, you get diminishing returns. And a lot of the people that work at corporations are middle-class people who commute in from the different boroughs. So you got to be very careful about raising costs on business because New York is getting to the point where a lot of businesses are contemplating leaving or at least doing the bulk of their hiring somewhere else. Then you think, well, we could just go after all rich people. The problem is there are a lot of people in New York making a half a million, 600, 800 grand a year as a couple.

54:37And they can't, I was that couple and I had to leave because it's just so goddamn expensive there and you're already paying 13 to 14 % incremental taxes. So I like the idea and let's bring this back to me. In 2017, when I sold my company, I made the mistake of giving NYU, I think, 2 % of the company. So the dean called me and said, can you come up here? And when the dean calls you and says, come up here, it's either very good or very bad news. And he said, we just got a check for X. And he said, first off, thank you. And he said, if my math is correct, that means you sold your company for Y. And I said, yes.

55:13And he's like, I need you to move out of faculty housing right away.

55:16Kara Swisher:That's right. You lost that house. And he said - You liked that house, didn't you? I loved it there. It was all a bunch of 110-year-old widows from some 10-year history professor that died 40 years ago. No one makes eye contact. No one talks to each other. I loved it. Washington Square Village. It was amazing. No one even looks you in the eye. Occasionally, there'd be a little mimeograph paper saying, join us in the third floor to celebrate Lois Frankel's life. Occasionally, there was a notice about someone who died. That's it. I absolutely love it. Anyways, he said, he was really funny, too. Peter Henry, one of my role models and the best boss I've ever had.

55:48He said, you're in strategy. He's like, answer me this. What do you think the objective is of faculty housing? And I'm like, to provide housing for young faculty who could otherwise not live here. And he's like, bingo, I need you to move out next week, not the week after that. Anyways, I bought a place, which Kara Swisher is very fond of. It's been one of my second homes. And I spend about, I don't know, about 60 days a year there, maybe 90, I don't know. And here's the bottom line. This tax, I figured out, I did the math. If it goes through unfettered or -

56:22Kara Swisher:I'm the one that told you about this, by the way. You told me about it, so I began looking into it. Yeah. It's unlikely, it'll be watered down. But if it goes through as Mom Donnie has proposed it, it would be an incremental$100 ,000 a year tax on me, personally. I'm not fond of that. It's a form of a wealth tax because all that really does is take, say, a condo worth$10 million and make it worth$8.5 or$9 million because it's an extra$100 ,000 a year. But here's the bottom line and the reason why I think it's a win. One, our municipalities need to get their fiscal house in order. Two, it's clear that if there's going to be incremental taxes, it should be on the wealthiest among us.

56:59And three, a tax on second homes, which is also being proposed, by the way, in San Francisco and Montana, is a very elegant way of going after those of us who, quite frankly, have the money.

57:12Kara Swisher:Right. It's over$10 million, the house is correct. Over five, as it sounds now. In addition, you get a twofer here, and that is if people decide to sell, it does free up housing stock. So nobody likes a tax. I get it. And the wealthy are going to come out of their skin. I get it. Ken fucking Griffin needs to shut the hell up. He looks like a - Well, hold on. I'm not done with my wins and my fails. All right. Okay. I get it. I actually think as far as taxes goes, which nobody likes, see above the meaning of the word tax. I think this is an elegant, thoughtful, less bad tax. My little lesbian communist from San Francisco, finally.

57:53Go ahead. And as long as I can roll out of my apartment and I have the money, which I do, and go to Jack's wife, Frida, and sit there and order a latte and watch the freak show of commerce, sex, capitalism, art, fashion, walk by me, it is worth$100 ,000 a year to me. And it's still worth that to a shit ton of people because if you have a second home in Manhattan, my brothers and sisters, you are doing just fine.

58:17Kara Swisher:Yeah. Pied a tear. So the pietre tax and the second home tax being proposed across municipalities that need to raise revenue, it is an elegant, thoughtful tax. This is what you're not going to like. My fail is Mayor Mamdani and his class warfare against the rich and doxing Ken Griffin. That was totally out of line. I would agree with you. Totally out of line. And here's the problem with Democrats. We want to redistribute virtue, not income. them, propose a tax on the wealthiest. I get it. Get on with it. Stop complaining about billionaires. Do your fucking job and raise taxes on the wealthy. But instead, do not go to their homes and dox them.

59:03And this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. Ken Griffin, who had a$6.5 billion project underway in Manhattan, supposedly has given a quarter of billion dollars to New York-based charities, you know what he's going to say? Fuck you. And he's absolutely going to take capital he was investing in Manhattan and move it to Florida and Texas. And here is the problem with Democrats. We'd much rather signal virtue than do our fucking jobs. And that is, it is one thing to be right, but it doesn't matter if you're ineffective. And the Democrats are going to lose if they continue to try and with this undercurrent of young men are the problem, don't have problems.

59:42Most white people are racist and all billionaires are evil. Well, guess what? You're going to lose the young male, the wealthy, and quite frankly, the white vote if you keep this class warfare demonization of success up. One of the most wonderful things about America and the reason why we have consistently attracted the best and brightest around the world is we celebrate success. Now, do we need to redistribute income in the middle class, abso-fucking-lutely. But notice how they never talk about Oprah or Beyonce. This is identity politics at its worst. It's demonizing success. And you are going to end up with lower treasury receipts, but great, you're going to virtue signal.

1:00:23Kara Swisher:All right. Let me ask you, what is the thing? Because I think the most effective messaging around this area, and I often would be saying, are billionaires off? I'm like, not all of them. No, of course not. I think the most effective way is to say, everyone needs to pay their fair share. That I think is a very effective thing. And you're saying the same thing. And remember, I think Gore tried to sort of demonize rich people, which is ironic since he is one. But one of the things that I think is effective is everybody should pay their fair share. Like, everybody shouldn't get breaks. Everyone shouldn't get to meet with the president if I don't, right?

1:00:58Kara Swisher:Everyone shouldn't be in a meeting where they get stuff. I think the get-well, they're getting good stuff of them standing there and pulling in like Scrooge McDuck all the money is a very good message. Like, why do they get the first, why do they get the best bits and you don't? I think that is not demonizing them. It's saying fair share. This is how much they pay. This is how much you pay. This is how much corporate tax has gone down. This is how much your taxes have gone up. I think that is fully a great way to do it. And I agree that I didn't love the thing of using Ken Griffin. I think you could have done much wider is all these people have second homes and they should pay a tax on it.

1:01:36Kara Swisher:And that's that. And they're very rich and not just they can afford it, they don't have to pay taxes. And win with math is the way you kind of do it with people in a smart way. That's my feeling. What about you? From a marketing perspective, what do you think? If teachers' unions were much more powerful and they had figured out a way to weaponize government and were getting paid$500 ,000 a year on average, plus benefits, plus retirement, they would not be saying enough. We don't need any more. People will always respond to incentives in a capitalist society to get more and more. Until we get rid of Citizens United, the wealthiest among us will weaponize government and always incrementally seed the transfer of power of our economy from laborers and consumers to investors.

1:02:21The entire shooting match around income inequality is the following. The point of America is to make the jump to light speed by evolving from an earner to an owner. Because once you're an owner, your wealth compounds tax deferred. And owners are so powerful and have such powerful lobbies because of Citizen United, they keep coming up with new tax breaks. I can buy a jet today and write the whole fucking thing off in year one being cashflow positive. If I own a home and I put it in an LLC, I'm an owner. I can sell it. Don't have to have a capital gain. I can roll into another investment property, put it in a trust,$30 million exemption, and start building a dynasty.

1:02:58Until we have an elected populace, elected representatives who stop transferring capital influence, well-being, health per year series from labor and from consumers to shareholders, none of this is going to change. And the key to all of this, none of this happens unless you do away with Citizens United. And for Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who keep complaining about the wealthy, well, then do your fucking job. When you controlled all three houses of government, taxes went down on the rich during the Biden administration. So everyone can, it's like the guy complaining that the game was rigged is wearing a referee's uniform.

1:03:39Kara Swisher:Yeah, I agree. You need structural reform. But demonizing billionaires, everybody does the same thing. Everyone responds to incentives and feathers their bed the most they can. I also think they do it to themselves. I do think, on the other hand, the look of the Bezos' at that Met gala wasn't good. Totally different issue, but I agree with you. I think they do it to themselves. They do it to themselves, so let them do it to themselves. Rent Venice. Everyone knows how that feels. I agree. I have to say, I agree with you. You're right. I think it was a rare misstep by Mamdani, who's a little more deft as the way he handled Trump.

1:04:08Very savvy politician.

1:04:10Kara Swisher:I thought that was a little cloddish of him. I think you're right. I think you're right. Anyway, those are good ones. Although Ken Griffin's still been a whiny bitch about it anyway. He's always a whiny bitch. Smart guy. I understand. Really smart guy. All of them need to stop talking. Every one of them. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And we have a specific question for you listeners today. Who do you want to see co-host with me in August when Scott goes away on a vacation?

1:04:43Kara Swisher:We already have a really good list, actually, including Chelsea Handler is coming. So I'm very pleased about that. We want to hear your ideas, and maybe we can get them for you. So we'll pick at least one from the suggestions of the people. And don't be kooky. Don't be like the Pope. I can't get the Pope, although I'm working on getting an interview with them. But I mean, I could try to get the Pope, but it's not going to work. So email us, call us, or tell us on the socials. We want to hear your suggestions. I would prefer an alien if that's possible, if anyone's listening from up there or tapping into this show.

1:05:17Kara Swisher:Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on On With Kara Swisher, I'm talking with author and journalist Patrick Radden Keefe. He's one of my favorite journalists. He writes amazing books. Obviously, he wrote about the opiate crisis. He's written about the crisis in Northern Ireland. He's just an amazing journalist. His new book is called London Falling. It's about a mysterious circumstance around the death of a 19-year-old who was pretending to be the son of a Russian oligarch. I asked Raden Keefe why he's drawn to these true crime stories. Let's listen to a clip. I don't really even think of myself as a crime reporter, but it is a situation where when I go out and I kind of pursue what's interesting to me in the world, it's often stories about people transgressing in one way or another.

1:06:01It's often stories about people kind of using their own charisma to change the world a little bit, to find some little wormhole, some loophole they can get through, or actually to kind of reorganize the world in a way that they would want. And it's funny because we talk about those stories as if they're outliers, but I feel as though that is the era we live in.

1:06:23Kara Swisher:It's a great interview. So smart. Also, he's very handsome. Scott, he was in. Really? Yeah. That will be, that hands down will be on Netflix within 24 months. Oh, I think he's already sold it. I'm sure. Say nothing was already made. Like I hear that story and I want to know more. That's correct. It's going to be great. I actually was asking him who's going to play the kid in the movie. I think he's already sold it. I believe so. By the way, it's a riveting read. It's really, you can't put it. I'm not sure it has that as much meaning as he's putting in it, but it's a fantastic read. And it is, it does, it's about modern day London too, which is interesting.

1:06:56Kara Swisher:Okay. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Severio, and Dan Chalon. Nishat Kroos, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

1:07:27Thank you.