On with Kara Swisher: Why Ben Stiller Made Severance

24:48We made all nine episodes and nobody had seen it. It's like, oh, I hope people will buy this conceit because, you know, it's you have to buy into it. But it's there because I feel like those aren't the questions as much that I'm as interested in as opposed to the sort of greater themes of the show. Right. Absolutely. I mean, it's also a return to work story, which is sort of in the news right now, this idea of return to work. Did you understand that at the time? You had a COVID period in here when you were making it. Yeah. Not at all. I mean, yeah, the first season we made starting right when COVID started.

25:26and we were delayed actually six months in production because of it. And so when the show was finished and people were starting to go back to work and a writer wrote about it as like, oh, this is like one of the first return to work shows. It was purely, you know, that's just happenstance. So it was just, I think, the timing of how the show came out and it seemed like both the aspect of being sort of severed from everybody else in the world, you know, as we were, and that weirdness, even making the show where the actors were, you know, we were first season, everybody was in full PPE and, you know, face masks.

26:04Yeah, I don't remember any of that. I don't remember. Blocking is working. Someone's like, do you remember that? I'm like, I don't. Do you know that Trump was president before he knew that? I don't remember that. It's not going very well right now. We'll get to that in a minute. But no, blocking, it's working. I want to get into the business of this in a second, but do you have a character you particularly vibe with on the show? I mean, I really enjoy all the characters equally. I like them. Adam is the key, I think, because, you know, he's the protagonist, but... Milchick, that guy. Milchick, yeah.

26:40Milchick, excuse me, Milchick. Well, Milchick is, yeah. I mean, I'm excited for this season with Milchick too, just because I feel like, you know, he's an enigma and he can be scary, But there's so many different aspects to who he is that make him a really fascinating character. And everybody works for this corporation. So at the end of the day, there's a chain of command. And I think that's something that's interesting to us in the show is sort of like how even if it's this weird kind of world or these maybe possibly scary characters that work at the company, they're also working. And so they have to deal with all of the office politics, too.

27:22The Defiant Jazz scene was my favorite in the entire, when they were dancing. So awkward. I've been at that party. I've been at that office party where they have cake in the office. They do pineapple sear. Yeah, the pineapple fruit plate as a way of luring people back. You know, it's like, sort of like, you know, the shitty little, you know, perks that you get. That, you know, in contrast to what these people have experienced, that that's huge for them. I mean, though they are trying it in season two on the Audis. But it's funny to me that when they have an office party, it's still just them. There's nobody else there.

27:59So it's just like the lights change, but it's still the same four people who are like mingling with each other. So that was one of my favorite sort of setups that we had with, you know, the idea of like, well, okay, where is this going to go? And all of a sudden, you know, when you get this next level perk, they're going to like change the color of the lights in the room and you're going to dance. And the combination of, you know, Milchick is like, he's kind of like, you know, obviously the best dancer there. Such a good dancer. An amazing dancer, Tramiel Tillman. And Adam, the best, like, white guy dancing, I think, I've ever seen.

28:35Quite good. He didn't do his, you know, biting his lip enough. The white man overbite. Save that Billy Crystal, right? Yeah. Yeah, it was, to me, the weirdness of that moment is kind of like, well, that's what's in the show. It's motivated because it's a, you know, it's a party. It's a perk. It's you understand why they're doing it. But it's also just so weird and really fun to be able to, like, explore that. We'll be back in a minute.

29:12in business they say you can have better cheaper or faster but you only get to pick two what if you could have all three at the same time that's exactly what cohere thompson reuters and specialized bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud oracle cloud infrastructure OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs, where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high-performance environment, and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster? OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second.

29:51Cheaper? OCI costs up to 50 % less for compute, 70 % less for storage, and 80 % less for networking. Better? In test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all your biggest workloads. Right now, with zero commitment, try OCI for free. Head to oracle.com slash vox. That's oracle.com slash vox.

30:21Support for this show comes from Airbus. It took 100 years for electric vehicles to catch on. Modern solar panels? Half a century. Lithium batteries? Decades to go from their debut to daily use. It's a pattern. Energy tech breaks through, stalls, and then something tips the scales. But for every success, there are even more almosts. So what if there was a breakthrough sitting at this crossroads right now? The potential to cut carbon emissions with sustainable aviation fuel, or SAF, is real. SAF works just like Jet A1, which is a standard jet fuel used worldwide. But the difference is its contribution to aviation emissions reduction.

31:09It could change the future of flight, and that's why several major U.S. carriers have already increased their commitments to fuel with SAF. But it's not just up to the airlines. What's needed is an industry-wide push to increase the supply to meet growing demand. You can learn more about how Airbus is contributing to accelerating this journey at fly.airbus.com slash the flight path. The pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. Crafted with our signature espresso and real pumpkin sauce. Then topped with whipped cream, cinnamon, and nutmeg. The PSL. Get it while it's hot or iced. Only at Starbucks.

31:53So I want to talk a little bit about the business. have you been surprised how popular it's gotten? I know Succession got more popular in the second season, right? And Severance was Apple's first new series order after the company launched its streaming service. And it was trying to do an HBO thing. That was very clear, a place for big talent to come and make what they want with big budgets. Now, Severance is reportedly costing a lot of money, and there have been cuts at Apple pulling the budget as the second season was being produced all across the way. But at the same time, And Parrot Analytics was noting that you might be generating$200 million for Apple in terms of subscriptions and everything else.

32:30And at the same time, you're about to maybe announce your third season. Talk a little bit about the calculations here of how you look at it, because it used to be so much easier. Now, you made mostly movies over TV shows. But talk a little bit about the calculations, because it's a weird economic environment at the same time. Honestly, yeah, I know very little about it. It's a weird world to be in. From the beginning, it was a new, strange experience because when we started developing the show, Apple wasn't even up yet. And someone called up and said, yeah, Apple's going to do a streaming service too.

33:05And I remember laughing, going like, okay, everybody's doing streaming services. This is crazy. And we went out and pitched the show to different HBO, all these places, and Apple was the only one that bought it. And they weren't even up yet. What did the others say about it? Well, you know, no one ever really tells you it's Hollywood. Yeah, we'll get to that. They say we loved it, it just wasn't for us. Yeah. But that's just the way it is. And that's par for the course. But they said yes to it. And then it was like, okay, we're going to develop this thing for Apple TV. That's weird to think of.

33:39And then a couple of years go by, and then all of a sudden they're up and running, and we're a show that's in production for them. And so, honestly, I had no sense of what success would be other than I hope people watch it. And, you know, they don't really tell you the analytics. Oh, they don't. No, they don't ever tell you the analytics. No, they show us graphs and charts, but without numbers attached to them. And it's weird. I think that's weird for any creative person, especially when you're used to, you make a movie, you know exactly how many people went to see it on opening night, how much money it made, a show, you get Nielsen ratings.

34:14So in a way, it took the pressure off of us because there wasn't some number we were waiting to hear. All we wanted to hear was like, yeah, we're happy. A lot of people are watching it and you want people to watch the show. But the first season, we were lucky enough to get very positive, critical response, which hardly ever happens in my life. And I was so happy about that. And it seemed like people were watching it, but I didn't know how many people. and then we went into our process of making the second season, which got hit by the strike and, you know, it took a long, much longer than we wanted.

34:50So coming back after three years in this culture is, you know, it's like a hundred years in terms of just any guarantee that people are still gonna be there. But in the meantime, Apple had grown, they'd built out their subscriber base. And I think they also really get the show, have always gotten the show. I thought they did a great job of marketing it the first season in terms of just like the aesthetic of it with the show and Apple. And it always felt like a good— Well, it looks like Apple headquarters, but go ahead. Yeah, it does. And that wasn't intentional. I've never been to Apple headquarters, you know, seen like aerial shots.

35:25But like really, we designed it. But it always felt like it's, you know, yeah, this fits on Apple. And then the second season, they really put a lot behind it. I think they believed in it and they, you know, had money invested in it too. Um, and luckily our fan base, our core fan base really was still there for it. And I felt like it could go either way. It could go, you know, it's three years and we waited for this, you know, no thanks. Or like, nobody cares. It's back. Or it could be, you know, hey, it was worth the wait. And that's totally out of your control when you're making something. So you just put your head down and do it.

36:02So you don't know. I mean, I'm just, this parent analytics is pretty accurate. $200 million for Apple in terms of subscription. You don't know. Yes. I saw that article, but that's all, yeah. Yeah. Does that change your, you know, going to Apple saying, I want more money? I want - No. I know because honestly, I feel like they've been great. I have no complaints. It's like they've gotten behind the show. They, you know, and they, these things are so complicated. I think I was really happy to see that article because I didn't know, but I also feel like they've always been like, yeah, we love the show.

36:35We're behind it. And, you know, it's, yeah, it's never been like a thing. Did you have any problems working for a tech company? You mean like in terms of just my own sort of moral? Yeah, versus a Hollywood. Yeah. This is a whole new change with these tech companies, sort of Amazon and Apple. For me, just the concern that not knowing what Apple TV Plus would be, like whether or not they were how serious they were about it, whether or not we would be looked at as, you know, a real show early on, you know, in that way. I think like, and, you know, that's also the not knowing what they had really planned for and what they were trying to do, other than them saying they wanted to make really good shows.

37:21Right, which they have. But, you know, you do hear, of course, there is like, well, you know, ultimately it's a phone company. You know, they're making phones. Yeah, yeah. Like Amazon, the creator of Transparent called me once and I said, you're selling toilet paper. That's what you're doing. Yeah, and look, for a creative person who grew up in my generation, it's weird to see. It's weird to see that Amazon Prime is on there when you're shopping for Amazon stuff, and you can just click on that and watch movies and shows. It takes away something of the specialness of movies when you look at it that way.

37:51And then there's the other aspect of what's informing their decisions based on, you know, their analytics and the level of information that they're getting that will create for them, you know, ideas of what they think they want to produce for their platform. Yeah. So what are the chances of a third season? You did get Tim Cook in an ad. That was a good sign. Yeah. He's a big ham, by the way. He pretends he's not a ham. He's a ham. He seemed to like it. Yeah. You know, yeah, I think the chances are really good. And, you know, that, yeah, I mean, for us, we just want to be able to tell the story in the number of seasons that it should be to finish the story.

38:31And that's what's great. I mean, that's the upside of working in this era is that, you know, we're not a show that has to keep going because the network, it's a network hit show. They're saying we need 22 episodes. Right. And you got to keep doing until the ratings drop. That pressure is not there. And that, I think, is something that gets lost a little bit in all the sort of weird negatives of this world, too, is that you have that creative freedom. So at the same time, there's the Netflix phenomenon, right? They regularly beat all the other streamers, more top 10 shows combined than all of them, despite the quality and reviews that Apple gets.

39:06They'll pop up anything, Netflix, like really pretty much. Now, you guys have been doing a bunch of marketing. You had the season two pop-up in Grand Central Station that was hysterical, where you put them in a glass box and had people, had them do their work in the glass box, which was great. Yeah, for three hours they were there. For three hours. And you were outside. People were shooting pictures of you at the same time. How do you, is everything now go around Netflix in that regard? Or is there, streaming is sort of starting to settle, I guess, but maybe not. I don't know in terms of how it's all settling out.

39:39It's just, I know it's a crazy new world. I know Netflix has changed everything. You know, the amount of shows that they produce, movies that they make, the level of, you know, what they're putting in and spending. It's just changed everything. So everybody who makes stuff, you want your stuff to be seen. And so it's that sort of push-pull where if you have something on Netflix, you know that you have a chance for more people in the world to see it than probably ever. But it also could be just go down the queue very quickly and never even, you know, get any attention. And so that's a real thing, too, you know.

40:22You're scared of the queue? Yeah, sure. But, I mean, like, who wouldn't be, you know, feeling like, oh, I don't want to just go down, you know. But it's just such a crazy world now that the cultural moment that you have for something, I actually like being on Apple because they don't drop everything at once. We get to have an episode every week. And I think for our show, that benefits our show. It does. Because we get a chance for people to chew on it and to think about it and to talk about it and to go online and go back and forth. Want it and to want it. Yeah, and to want it. And I like that.

40:53And maybe that's just a generational thing. I'm just an old guy who's like, oh, I remember when shows would come on every week. But it is, succession was like that, right? And you'd look forward to that. And I think, you know, it's just the new world we're in. But yeah, Netflix has turned the movie business upside down. And it's still trying to find its way, I think, in terms of what defines a movie. You know, I'm hoping and I really do believe we're going to get back to what people went to the movies for besides spectacle and, you know, giant IP and, you know, and all that stuff. And, you know, I feel like that will come back around.

41:36Well, you've made both types of movies, right? Sure. Yeah. But, you know, back in the day a little bit and I haven't done it for a while and, you know, in movies and it's hard to, you know, the thing is, like, the movies. had that version of it where you have an opening weekend, and if your movie didn't do well on the opening weekend, a wide release, then it would go away pretty quickly. So it's kind of the same version of like being on the queue at Netflix. It's just the kind of, you know, on steroids or something, you know. Even more existential. In that vein, there's a question not from me.

42:06Every episode we ask an outside person to record a question. Here's yours. Hi, Ben. My name is Lucas Shaw, and I'm the managing editor for media and entertainment at Bloomberg News. My big question is, Following strikes and the broader pullback on spending in Hollywood, many executives, producers, and creative people say this is the worst time to work in Hollywood in their lives. What's another moment in your career where your peers had so much existential dread? Thanks. Oh, wow. That's presuming you have existential dread. I mean, existential dread is sort of something that creative people have, I think, all the time.

42:41Yeah. And that, I think, could be the generational trauma that I have, too. I mean, I grew up around that too. It's not a very secure business being an actor or a creative person. I mean, I can't remember a time when people were as off balance as they are now. I mean, everything has changed in such a big way. I'm trying to think of, you know, like when VHS happened or something like that or, you know, things like that. But it's just all been sort of thrown out there in a way that we don't know. I don't think the people who are making things know where it's going to land either. So they're trying to figure it out.

43:28And there's a lot of fear because those people want to keep their jobs, which I understand. But they have to make these choices based on what they think the audiences are doing. And so, yeah, I can't remember a time like this. It didn't feel so. You had noted it in the New York Times interview, though, that when a decision is made, it's never explained to the creative person. Or usually, if it is, it's not usually the truth, et cetera. Well, yeah, that's just sort of, you know. That's old school. Yeah, that's old school. Yeah, it is. And, you know, it really is, you know, people don't ever say, I don't know in any business because I've only done this.

44:03But, like, when people tell you when they reject an idea or something, if they always tell you the actual, their honest, you know, reason why they're doing it. But I think, you know, in this business, people want to keep their relationships with each other and they want to stay connected because they don't know what the next thing is going to be. And that's just always been a part of Hollywood. But I do think you're right. The bosses don't know what's going to happen, right? That's the problem is they really don't know. And going back to existential jet, coming up with the guardrails for use of AI in filmmaking are important points of negotiation.

44:35The actors and writers strikes. We've talked about this. There was some recent controversy with the Oscar-nominated film The Brutalist. They use AI to correct the Hungarian accents of its lead actors. Do you think about AI's potential impact on the industry? Are you thrilled by it? Is there a line in your head that shouldn't be crossed when applying? I suspect you might lean into it. I don't know why I think that. Maybe. I think it's so unknown. It's scary to think about what people could do with it, the potential, what is actually possible to do. I do believe that creative human beings are always going to be what people want to, you know, connect with and see their stuff.

45:16There are little places where AI, I mean, I feel like almost what's going on with CGI really is, in terms of visual effects, is basically into that world anyway at this point. Yes, that's correct. You know, using those tools. I mean, there are little ways that if I feel like, oh, you know, to be honest, I'd say like, oh, you're doing ADR, which is when you're like doing looping extra lines or something and an actor's not available. If the actor said, hey, it's okay, you know, you can use my voice and we can get the, you know, those words that you need to put in because I'm not available to do it because I'm doing another movie, something like that.

45:53Those are like kind of like mundane practical things that I think would be really helpful. and I don't know I mean I think I love The Brutalist I you know I don't in any way look at that as that making that movie lesser in any way at all honestly I also am very impressed with that movie as a lot of people are because the price it was made for but the unfortunate thing is that a movie like that has to be made for such a low price yeah you know it's just it's hard because I know how much creative people will, you know, will really stretch themselves to do what they want to do creatively because they, you know, and it's really hard to get the opportunity to make a movie that's not something that everybody in the world is going to want to see.

46:37But yet, those are the movies that we celebrate with awards and move us. So, you know, that's what I feel for are the creative people who are forced to have to really sacrifice a lot so that they can get something made. And now whether AI could in some way help that, I don't think that's a bad thing. But where the rules are around it, I mean, the idea of somebody taking your image and then being able to do whatever they want with it, it's very concerning to me when I see what it could be done. Well, they take your image a lot, Zoolander, all your different parts. I've often seen. That also happens.

47:12That's always happening, that kind of thing, right? I think ever since the internet, you know? But I do think it's concerning when you see in the political world how political ads can be created and people doing things that they didn't do, that's really scary. We'll be back in a minute.

47:37Mercury knows that to an entrepreneur, every financial move means more. An international wire means working with the best contractors on any continent. A credit card on day one means creating an ad campaign on day two. And a business loan means loading up on inventory for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more, all in one place, so that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group, Column N.A., and Evolve Bank & Trust members FDIC.

48:18When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. Change is always happening. But no matter what changes in five years, there's one thing that will stay the same. The price of your internet. With the Xfinity five-year price guarantee, you get five years of the most reliable Wi-Fi with our best equipment included for a price that stays exactly the same.

49:04Restrictions apply. New residential customers only. Taxes and fees extra and subject to change. Most reliable Wi-Fi based on OpenSignal Awards USA. Fixed Broadband Experience Report, August 2024. So you recently joined me in a not-so-exclusive club. We've both been called names by Elon Musk. I am seething with hate and an asshole, in case you're interested. I'm not going to repeat what he said about you. You know what he said about you. We're not repeating that word. Because I'm a good girl, okay? I don't say that word anymore. I used to when I was a kid. We don't do it anymore. But he seemed upset that you endorsed Kamala Harris.

49:37And then after you wondered in an interview whether Tropic Thunder could be made today, and I wish there was, as you know, I'm desperate for Tropic Thunder 2. He wanted to be more upset about how wokeness has supposedly ruined comedy. Talk a little bit about this moment. That makes no sense to me. I have no idea what that means. Well, you think he's on the up and up now these days? Because he makes so much sense about everything he does. I have very little interest in his whole thing and what he's doing. So tell me why, because he was retweeting a Daily Mail headline that read, Ben Stiller says, Woke America killed edgier comedy.

50:11That's not what you said at all, from what I could read. No. Yeah, that was not at all. It's the opposite of what I was saying. Yeah. I don't know why he has so much time on his hands that he's retweeting something that was written about me. I know he really likes Tropic Thunder. Good for him. But I think he's, you know, after that, you know, the Nazi salute, the double Nazi salute. Yeah. I'm just, I'm not, yeah, I'm not into it. Never was into it. And I think, you know, what's happening, honestly, not that anybody needs my opinion, but what's happening in terms of him being so close to the president and, you know, all the questions that that brings up in terms of conflicts of interest, all of that stuff is really, really concerning.

50:57It is, absolutely. The two of them together is very tough. And what he cares about, pop culture and all that stuff, is like, you know, who gives a shit, you know? He wanted you to agree with him that Tropic Thunder couldn't be made. Isn't that awful? It goes with the narrative of, isn't everybody trying to stop us because we're the greatest victims on earth? Us rich people are the greatest. I think that's down that lane, something like that. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it makes anybody a victim. I mean, what the temperature is in terms of what movies are getting made or not. The reality is, yeah, sure, the environment is different and it would be tougher to get it made.

51:33I don't know if it could get made or not. I think it would be harder to get it made. But that doesn't mean I'm commenting on, you know, the state of our culture. I think it's just— He wanted you to agree with him, I think. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't. Yeah, but you don't. Okay. But one of the things that people are worried about is a Trump chill in Hollywood. Now, obviously, that's happening in tech. Everybody showed up at the inauguration, all the tech richest people in the world. New York Magazine recently quoted an anonymous producer who said, there's more fear in the executive suites now than there's ever been.

52:02There seems to be a pulling back. Disney pulled a trans character, for example. Is there any indication for you that Hollywood executives would be more hesitant to fund projects with political messages? Quite a few of yours have them. Now, besides sports that you endlessly blue sky about, which I don't understand any of your references, you're also very political. You don't shy away from it. I believe they're a basketball team in any case. You are a political, but do you think about that at all? Yeah, sure. I think about it. I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like after, you know, when October 7th happened and, you know.

52:43This is the newsreel. Yeah. I was trying to think of like, well, what should I say? And it was really, I realized like I'm not going to be able to express myself in a tweet or a blue sky post or, you know, it's just I don't want to go into that arena of like having to sort of like distill some idea down into a thought that then people are going to be able to express myself. of debate and you know what's going to happen with that. But so to me, it's more a question of like, where do I express myself? And what do I do? And I don't think having to legislate all this stuff on the, you know, on your phone all the time, or as much as sometimes there's an instinct to, to me, that's not something that I'm going to really do well with, or it's just not going to make me happy to do that.

53:27But I feel like that's why I wrote a little something about October 7th. And just put it out there because I wanted to express myself. I just think it's this social media debate and what it turns into is not, never really goes well. What about the art itself? Do you think how it will be impacted by the time we're in, if you could look forward? I know I interviewed Rachel Maddow recently and we talked a bit about her podcast about Nixon's corrupt first vice president, Spear Wagner, called Bag Man. It's being adapted into a feature film you were reportedly set to direct. Do you think about doing, are you directing that?

54:01Is that correct? Yeah, I'm trying to get that movie made. We almost got it made a couple of years ago. I think it's more important now. Look, I think artists are incredibly inspired now to speak out in creative ways about what's going on in our country. My daughter is an actor. She just graduated from drama school. She's a writer, and she wants to make movies. And she said, you know, all I want to do right now is make stories about women and what they're going through because of what's going on in our country right now. So I think people are really inspired, and you're going to see a lot of amazing art come out of it.

54:38Does it make you want to do more? Because, I mean, Angels in America came out of Reagan, right? It came out of that anger. A lot of that art came out of things. Yeah, I think you have to be true to who you are in terms of what you create. But yes, for sure. And I think we all have to kind of look at ourselves and say, okay, what message are we putting out there with whatever it is we make? But even a comedy or drama, whatever it is, it doesn't all have to be political. It has to be true to who you are. And, you know, we're all affected by the world that we're in. So it's hopefully going to be a reflection of the experience that you're having in some way.

55:13I don't put that pressure on people to have to go out and do something. I think you have to be and do what feels right for you. Is there something that inspires you now at this moment? Because, I mean, do you get feel more? I don't feel like you're going to be making Night at the Museum 7 at this point or whatever we're on, whatever we're on. Well, I mean, honestly, though, I still think it's good to have, you know, stuff that you can watch that can make you laugh and give you a retreat. Oh, your Heist movie. What's it called, Heist? Oh, Tower Heist. Tower Heist was so good. Do you want to know?

55:40You know what? We shot that in the Trump Tower. You did. I know you did. Yeah. And the movie was originally called Trump Tower Heist, but Trump wanted them to pay him for the use of his name, so they changed it to Tower Heist. Oh, wow. Well, it was fantastic. I don't think anybody ever heard that. Oh, wow. Good to know. Sorry. Yeah, but no, look, I, like many people after the election who, you know, didn't vote for Trump, kind of wanted to just sort of hide for a moment and just not have to deal with the reality. And I think, you know, now it's sort of this moment in time where it's like, OK, this is the reality we're in.

56:13It's not the first term. We have to look at it, look at ourselves and do what we feel is right to, you know, to be who we want to be in this moment. And so I think that should all be what you're expressing, and it should all be part of what you want to say. So, yeah, that movie, Bagman, I'd love to get that movie made right now because I feel like it sort of tells the story of what happens when people do the right thing in the face of somebody who's trying to go past the bounds of what their power is. Right, and Spiragny is quite a character. He's such a fantastic character. That was a great podcast.

56:45I like all of Rachel's podcasts a lot. Me too. So my last question where we go is this idea of influences you now, or perhaps before. I know your mother and father, the great Jerry Stiller and Ann Mira, she died in 2015, I think that's right, and he died in 2020. You're working on a documentary about them right now. Can you talk a little bit about this? And I imagine they gave you a lot of advice about entertainment, business, and storytelling over the years. Is there anything about their careers from your perspective that endures and what influences you today? Yeah, I mean, they worked together as a comedy team.

57:20They got married in 1953, and they weren't making any money as actors, both separately trying to get work. And then my dad came up with this idea of them doing a comedy act together about who they were. And then we were born, my sister and I, and so grew up around it all. And for me, it was exploring in the movie this life of living in a household that was constantly part of their creative process because they would work at home and they would write together and they would perform and come home and be parents and actors. And it was all sort of intermingled. And then, of course, you grow up and I got married and had kids and became an actor and my kids wanted to be actors.

58:06And I was sort of looking at, you know, what is it inside of us that the creative process is and how that connects with relationships that we have in our life when you do this kind of thing. You know, when you go to an office job, you know, you go to the office, then you want to maybe sever and not think about it, right? You know, but in a life where you're a creative person, it melds through and it's always part of who you are. So it affected my parents' marriage. They stayed married for 60-plus years, but there was a lot of stress and tension in there. And I was able to—my dad recorded a lot of stuff, audio recordings, Super 8 film, and he recorded them rehearsing.

58:45And then sometimes the tape recorder would keep going, and they'd get into an argument or they'd talk about what was going on in their life. So I was able to take those tapes and kind of see something that I hadn't seen in their private life together and how they navigated this relationship and their careers together. And when does that, where is that coming out? It's going to be Apple, Apple movies. Yeah. And it's going to come out later this year, I think. So last question, what then influences you today about doing this from them? What did you come away with? I think I came away with a better understanding of my parents in terms of my dad's creative process in particular, because he was very focused on that.

59:30And sometimes it sort of took him away from the family in a way, just kind of in his head a little bit. And I think I inherited that from him. And I think it's kind of made me look at my own relationship with my kids and my wife and have a little more perspective on that and maybe kind of, you know, I don't know, like less angst about that because, you know, an appreciation of like, okay, we've gotten to this place. things have not always been perfect, but you keep evolving. And both my parents, I think, were constantly evolving and questioning themselves and looking inward. And I think that's something I got out of it.

1:00:15All right, Ben, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Great talking to you. All right. Bye, Cara.

1:00:24On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yoakum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, Megan Kunane, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you already find the show, you get a pineapple. If not, you get the dance experience, and you do not want that experience. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:00:58We'll be back on Thursday with more.