Pope's Pushback, Orban's Concession, and Bessent's Anthropic Warning

18:05Now, this notion of we broke it, you fix it, it diminishes our credibility globally for a long time. But something we have taken for granted, like a lot of things we've taken for granted, that took huge sacrifice, huge resources, a lot of brave patriots from around the world giving their lives such that we can enjoy these things. One of those things is the freedom of maritime navigation. And that is Singapore has decided not to sequester and block and control the Straits of Singapore. And if you start blocking straits through the fear of military actions such as no will insure the$100 or$200 million of cargo, that strait is blocked off.

18:45So everybody, especially the Gulf players and most especially Russia, Iran, and China have a vested interest in the Strait of Hormuz being opened for their ships. So America, and I think this is the right move.

19:00Kara Swisher:Yeah, many Ignatius thought so too. But here's the thing. These little drones and these little boats, I feel like 15 U.S. warships, yikes. I just feel like we are putting ourselves way out there unnecessarily now that this is our only choice. That's the problem. Let's be clear. Not going to Congress, not enlisting Gulf allies, not enlisting European allies, not having a clear exit strategy after certain military objectives were met or not met has put us in the definition of a quagmire. By the way, just a quick fun fact, the mining sweeping or the demining vessels in the Navy, do you know what they're made out of?

19:39Kara Swisher:No. They're made out of wood. Isn't that interesting? Oh, because they can't, the metals, they don't attract them. Then the drones, then the mines can't detect them. And then when they detect them, they have unbelievable, they're ancient, basically ancient structures with the most sophisticated radar equipment. And when they detect a mine, they drop a metal figure and then it's drawn to the metal figure and they blow it up. It's really sophisticated technology. But right now they have to say to China and Iran, we're going to create an incentive for you to make sure that the strait is open. And a multinational force that keeps the strait open to everyone's benefit, that is objectives one, two, and three here.

20:23Kara Swisher:No one wants to help Trump because he's not Jesus. But like speaking of the sad situation for J.D. Vance, by the way, J.D. Vance happens to be Catholic, so that's even better. And he failed in Iran, which I think everyone expected. Despite some last minute campaigning from him, as well as Trump's endorsement, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has been ousted after 16 years in power. Not a good sign for the Trump people. Orban conceded defeat in the country's general election on Sunday, saying the results are painful but unequivocal. His opponent, Peter Magyar, called the election a miracle, telling supporters that we have liberated Hungary and have taken back our country.

20:58Kara Swisher:By the way, Magyar was a loyalist of Orban and just broke with him over a pardon. And so it's like as if a rhino Republican won, essentially. He's not, you know, Mr. Liberal in any way. More than 77 percent of registered voters cast ballots. Amazing. The highest turnout in a Hungarian election since the fall of communism. You know, it's a really interesting winner. Obviously, he's super handsome and kind of sexy and everything else, but he's not as liberal as you think. Let's just be clear. And he also was in the Orban University, switched parties. But again, it's very much like, oh, who switched?

21:36Kara Swisher:I don't know, George Conway becoming the president. You know what I mean? Someone who was conservative and now looks as if he's not. But so George can be conservative and liberal on different things, but he's also running for Congress, by the way. Is this an indicator of a larger move away from the far right? I mean, obviously, Democrats can learn a lot, but this is a little different in Hungary. But it is it's the end of an era and J.D. Vance and Trump hugged, bear hugged Orban. So and so did Tucker Carlson. So did Elon Musk. That whole gang did also. Thoughts? Since the U.S.'s decision to bomb Iran or increase whatever you want to call it, increase the military escalation or some people would call it a new war, this is the biggest thing that's happened in the last month.

22:22This is Europe and a key component in a healthy, important, powerful economy saying rejecting the movement to the far right. He said nice things about, he said he hopes the U.K. rejoins the European Union. It is a huge win for Ukraine. They are pro-Ukraine, and it is a huge defeat for Russia that was hoping to turn Orban and Hungary into a Russian satellite. Orban was the friction.

22:47Kara Swisher:She was headed that way. Orban was the friction in more European aid and support of Ukraine. It says something. It was symbolic that J.D. Vance went over there. And after going over, Orban's popularity actually went down. But something even more important, or I would argue more important happened. The people. They had the largest turnout in the history of Hungary, a much greater percentage of Hungarians voted than have ever voted in a U.S. election. There were people singing in the metro. There were people laughing and crying. This was really a wonderful moment for the West. And that's still not the best thing that happened here.

23:27The best thing that happened, and it's a real testament to Viktor Orban, was he conceded the election. He said he thanked his people. He talked about Hungary. And he conceded the election. And when I saw three judges seeking Senate approval to become judges, and all three of those bitches, and when I say bitch, I mean someone who has a low character. I use it as an androgynous comment, refused to acknowledge that Biden had won the 2020 election. Viktor Orban has greater character now than many of our Republican elected officials. If you do not concede elections, the very basis, the very foundation of democracy does not exist.

24:15And a right wing, some people would call fascist in Eastern Europe, had the decency and the character to concede the election.

24:24Kara Swisher:Yep, absolutely. I mean, he's, you know, it'll be interesting to see what he does next. He'll probably become a right-wing figure. But it seems like right-wingery is sort of on the way out. This guy is a dressed-up version of a conservative, for sure. But at the same time, he was, as you said, back in Ukraine, was not a satellite of Russia. Let's hope he, you know, he certainly looks great. I know he seems young and vibrant. Orban seems old and corrupt, essentially. It'll be interesting to see which way he goes, how he deals with, well, Trump's, I think Trump is a past tense figure at this point for a lot of these leaders.

24:53Kara Swisher:whoever it happens to be. But it really is interesting. And you're right, this country looked like when I saw all those crowds, all those people, I was like, oh, this guy's absolute toast in the way people are handling it. And they just were sick and tired of corruption and fascism. And this is a country which has suffered at the hands of fascists and different difficult leaders for a long time. So what's our excuse? That's what I say. Anyway, let's take a quick break. When we come back, Eric Swalwell ends his campaign for governor of California. What a mess.

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27:42Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

28:12Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. Representative Eric Swalwell of California says he is resigning from Congress and has suspended his campaign already for California governor amid multiple allegations of rape, sexual assault and misconduct. In a post on X, the congressman said he is deeply sorry for mistakes and judgment I've made in my past. He said he would fight the, quote, false allegations, unquote. The allegations triggered swift political fallout with Swalwell losing nearly all of his endorsements within 24 hours. The governor's race remains crowded with other leading Democrats being billionaire Tom Steyer and former representative Katie Porter.

28:47Kara Swisher:Just so you're clear, this was started online by someone named Miss Frazzled, who had done an interview with Swalwell and then had gotten a lot of incoming about his behavior, which was very well known across the spectrum. I did not, but I think a lot of people within politics knew about him the same way I think many people knew about Gonzalez. Like there's a lot of men in politics that people know their behavior. And I think this was pretty well known, which is incredible that he walked into this race with a bomb strapped to his chest. He had to have known. Or maybe he doesn't think he did anything.

29:26Kara Swisher:That's what he seems to do. So any thoughts on this? You could possibly see Kamala Harris come back in. I don't know. What do you think about this? Steve Hilton was ahead. What do you think is going to happen here? Well, there's two things. It's impact on the governor's race and then what this says about the dynamic of potential accusations of misconduct and how we're supposed to evaluate that. So I'll go in that order. I think this probably is going to make Tom Steyer governor. I think that California is still a heavily Democratic state. I think if the Democrats consolidate to one or two leaders and that person gets into the general after the jungle primary, whatever you call it, I think the Democrats are going to win.

30:07And I think Steyer has the money. I think the next shoe to drop, I think Speaker Pelosi was waiting till there was something resembling an emerging leader here. I think it's Tom Steyer. I think she will endorse him. I think he will be one of the -

30:19Kara Swisher:Yeah, Ro Khanna already has. So is Gene Fonda, interestingly. I think he will be one of the two top candidates. He has the money. The unions don't like him, but money is more important than unions, even in California. I think with Swalwell dropping out in a consolidation across the Democrats, I think this is probably the moment that we'll look back on and say, this is how Steyer became governor. Now, to the second issue, and we face this all the time on boards, when a senior level person has sex with somebody and then that person accuses them of harassment or conduct. Sometimes they're bullshit cases and opportunistic.

30:53Other times there's a power imbalance that the person takes advantage of. My view on this shit is the following. We're not here, and I hate the Democratic Party for having purity tests around people having sex. I think when Al Franken or whoever gets run out of dodge such that Kristen Gillibrand can have a -

31:13Kara Swisher:I'm not sure this is comparable, but go ahead. Can have a seven-minute run for presidency where people have extramarital affairs. That, in my view, you know, okay, be careful who you judge on this shit. But if you are, and this is true on boards, if you, once you are above a certain level of power, as a general, not a general, as a red line, You fuck anybody who works here, you're out. It creates too much risk. So for me, the question is, if law enforcement needs to get involved and decide if there was a crime here, and sexual assault is obviously a very serious crime. It needs to be investigated.

31:49Then have it investigated. But before that even happens, if it's, did you have sex with a staffer as an elected representative? If the answer is yes, then you are out. If you're the secretary of Homeland Security and you're fucking your number two, then you are out. If you're the attorney general in Georgia investigating an important case against the president and you are fucking your number two, then you are out. The staffers are there to fuck each other, Not the elected representative who has power over them because all you're doing is injecting risk into the entire organization and there is a power imbalance.

32:26So whether or not he's guilty of sexual assault, the crime, the legal authority should investigate that. But he should be out before that if he was engaging in sexual relationships with the staffers. There needs to be a clear line here. There's too much of a power imbalance.

32:43Kara Swisher:What was interesting is how many people knew about it, right? He's texted me. He's wanted to come on the podcast. And I wrote back, I'm like, I might until there's two left. And then I'll think about who we're going to, you know, I think there's there was so many people in this jungle. Yeah, Steyer's teams with us trying to get on. Yeah, exactly. They were all every one of them, every every candidate in primaries, whether it's Iowa or Texas or wherever, they're all trying to get on these things. But I was like, well, let's just wait till there's two, which is what I told him. But I did. I did think I was surprised to find out.

33:14Kara Swisher:And by the way, kudos to the people online who actually handled it rather well. It was until no credible journalist from a major media organization would look into it. Now, it was broken online by this Miss Frazzled, who had done an interview with him and then had a lot of incoming. But she covers education. Like, that's the thing. And I think a lot of the political reporters had some sense of this from what I could understand. But it was broken by the Chronicle and CNN. Pam Brown did a report on it. I was sort of flummoxed by, one, why would you run when this many things were, you would be aware of things you did?

33:56Kara Swisher:And then, two, why nobody in media had started to look at it. Because same thing with Tony Gonzalez, too. Like a lot of these and there's more than that in Congress that I don't think that you should be on a hunt for this stuff necessarily. But this was really well known now in hindsight. Like, I think it was kind of healthy for the Democratic Party to speak out. Right. To like people to even if they were friends with him or had endorsed him. I thought that was relatively healthy response from the Democratic Party for lots of reasons. And there should be an investigation. That's exactly what every single party in this deserves and the public should expect.

34:35Kara Swisher:And that was the only part I was sort of like, really? It was, I was, I'm not surprised, I guess I'm not surprised anytime by anything. But I was amazed by how many people within these parties, both of them know this stuff pretty well. That always surprises me. I don't know about you. Look, I think we need, I mean, there's just need structural reform or this will continue to happen. We need Citizens United to go away. We need Jeremy Manninger to go away. We need to pay Representative Swalwell and the other representatives five to 10 times more than they're getting paid now, such that they can do their job and not have to compromise themselves and start trading stocks.

35:12I heard Roe Connell, one of my heroes, is actually outperforming the S &P all of a sudden. We need structural reform. And part of that structural reform is very clear lines. And that is, if you are a powerful senator or congressperson, the moment someone comes to work for you—

35:28Kara Swisher:I would say any, not powerful, any. Any, 100%. Any person elected to federal office, it's awesome to be you. You're going to go—you have the best rap at a bar. What do you do? Oh, I'm the elected congressperson from the great state of California. Wow, I would really like to have sex with you. Wow, sir, we'll find a reservation for you. Sir, let us escort you to your plane and circumvent security. Sir, can you be our honored guest? Can you be the commencement speaker at your former high school? It is awesome to be an elected federal official. One of the few downsides is that anyone who works for you, that you have power over their livelihood, you cannot have sex with.

36:18Simple. Cut and dry. No story. No context dependent. If you decide you have feelings for each other, then one of you needs to resign and pursue the relationship because it creates way too much risk, distraction from the important work they do. And guess what? I'm sympathetic. And by the way, I'm not one of these people that doesn't believe in intra-office romance. If you get a bunch of people in a closed, intense environment, they're going to start having sex. It's the senior level people that have power that don't get to do it. The young people have at it. As long as it's consensual, as long as no one feels pressured, that's what young people are supposed to be doing.

36:58Kara Swisher:Well, this case has more than that. This is not just that. That's not this. I agree with you. Right. So, I mean, it's a problem for you. Let's have some common sense laws or common sense norms and standards. When you have this kind of power imbalance, you are injecting risk and your fly is up and locked. You take it off campus. You want to have extramarital affairs. You want to have orgies. You want to have sex with people the same sex as you while passing anti-homophobic laws. Fine. It's a lack of character, but you don't get expelled from Congress. You abuse your power dynamic and inject the entire office to risk.

37:38You're out. Make it simpler for them. No gray area.

37:41Kara Swisher:I guess. I don't know. We'll see what happens here. It's not a great story. Anyway, and speaking of not a great story, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant met with the country's top bank executives last week, along with Fed Chair Jerome Powell, warning them about Anthropik's new mythos model. Besant raised concerns about cybersecurity, making sure banks are aware of the risk, taking precautions. Anthropik itself has been sounding the alarm, saying mythos is so powerful, it's potentially dangerous. It's not been released to the public yet. Instead, they're keeping it to a small group of companies to test to find vulnerabilities.

38:10Kara Swisher:It finds vulnerabilities in all manner of places. This Besant meeting appears to be separate from the Pentagon's clash with Anthropic, which is still playing out in court. You know, this is really a problem as these models continue to evolve in terms of staying too far ahead of the defense. The offense is much stronger than the defense. And of course, Besant is talking to banks about using it, but also at the same time using it to protect themselves. What a mess. What a mess, another mess. Yeah, I don't have a, I find that the worst thing to do right now is to be a cabinet member going on and trying to defend these policies.

38:52Kara Swisher:I think it is the government's interest to help companies figure out as these, see, one might start to regulate these things in terms of the way we do everything else, nuclear arms, etc., etc., development of important technologies. And if it's going to be dangerous to companies and let everyone in the back down and take everybody's money, it seems, I don't know, Besson's is doing the right thing here. But it's just ridiculous that the Pentagon is then mooring with Anthropic, which came forward, which companies usually don't in this case. Often companies keep it to themselves until a disaster.

39:25Kara Swisher:Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Sam Alton's home gets targeted in multiple attacks.

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40:08Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news. Sam Altman's home was targeted twice over the weekend, once with a suspect throwing a Molotov cocktail and the second time with a car stopping and firing a gun at the residence. He lives in San Francisco. The suspect in the first attack was later found at the OpenAI headquarters, threatening to burn down the building. Probably had some mental problems. Altman responded to the first attack in a blog post saying he emphasized with anti-technology sentiments. And clearly, technology isn't always good for everyone. In the Post, Sam Altman noted that the incident came a few days after an incendiary article was published about him.

40:42Kara Swisher:And the New Yorker raising questions about his trustworthiness. He shouldn't blame the article. It was an excellent article by Ronan Farrow. That's not what caused it. But nearly a third of young adults say AI makes them angry. These are new polls. You know, this is unfortunately where it leads these and to blame using the word incendiary was really unfortunate on Alton's behalf. But there is, you know, this is and I hate to blame someone for what's happening here because anyone that uses violence is should be widely derided by everybody. But it's still this is how it goes. I used to say this to them.

41:17Kara Swisher:If you don't if you don't do something about this, you're going to have to armor plate your test results, unfortunately, because people start to get really violent is where it often leads to. Your thoughts? I just think, I mean, speaking of red lines here, we just can't, we can't in any way justify, we have to move swiftly against any violence against any citizen. And I'm not a fan of Sam Altman. I think big tech has done tremendous damage, and these CEOs have done tremendous damage to the United States and most importantly to our youth, ripping at the fabric of America, we have to have zero tolerance for violence against them in any fashion.

41:56Absolutely. You know, I don't like Sam Altman. I think he's, we were talking about this off mic earlier when you were on my podcast. I think there are few people who have seen such a 180 in their brand in such a short span of time. Effectively, the brand march of tech executives is they're very likable, they're very charming, we need to do better. she should run for president. Oh, I love her book. Lean in. And then over time, we find out that they make a bunch of incremental decisions that are bad for America such that they can get richer and richer. And eventually, they turn into a Bond villain.

42:28That march is usually about a seven to 10-year march. For Sam Allman, it was 18 months. Remember, Sam was the more thoughtful guy with the hushed tones. Like, there are really, really, we are very concerned about some of the implications of AI and we need, oh, Senator, I don't own any equity.

42:45Kara Swisher:That's Dario now, but go ahead. I don't own any equity in open AI. Oh, what a guy, this nice young gay man in t-shirts who seems to be the caring tech CEO. Okay, I just want to go on record as saying this guy's going to, this guy will say or do anything to make more money. That's why they go into this business. There are easier ways to find self-satisfaction than running a tech company right now. You're there for the money. You get tremendous pressure and obligation to represent your shareholders. You want to win. It is a thunderdome. It is easy to understand why they get there. The real failure is there's absolutely no regulation on these individuals.

43:22And so when people start coming at them, I don't like it when people start yelling insults verbally at J.D. Vance. I think there has to be a level of civility and safety such that we work things out at a government level. And I know there's a lot of people who disagree with my views on Israel. People don't assault me verbally on the street. I feel like I'm poking the bear here. I think it's important. I saw Senator John Thune in Nantucket. I went up to him and I thanked him for his service. I don't agree. I disagree with almost everything he does. And I immediately disclosed I'm a Democrat, but I said we're both Americans.

44:01one of the hallmarks of a progressive society that we all want to live in is we recognize we're all Americans and as long as we're operating within the confines of the law which quite frankly Sam Altman is and that's the problem is there aren't any laws he deserves to live in peace and safety.

44:18Kara Swisher:Yeah, let me say he shouldn't have blamed the article for it. This was a really well-reported article. Suddenly people don't hate Sam Altman because of this article. They have these feelings and unstable people act on them because of a perceived rapaciousness by tech companies. It's probably a mentally ill young man. That's correct. Who read about Sam Altman. You know, the guy who killed John, crazy people are drawn. They believe that in a historic act of violence, it will restore or give them social capital. That's why they do it. I don't know anything about this individual, but there's a very good chance it's someone who's isolated and is hoping to gain social capital through what they see is a heroic act of violence.

45:05And the FBI and our security apparatus need to ensure that famous people can walk the streets and have some semblance. My old home, I bought a home in San Francisco, and I bought it for$720 ,000, and two years later, I wanted to move to New York, and I sold it for$950 ,000 and thought I was a fucking real estate genius. That home ended up being next to the home where ultimately it's no longer there now, so you don't need to look up the address, but it ended up being the home next to where Mark Zuckerberg lived in San Francisco in the neighborhood you live in.

45:37Kara Swisher:Oh, you're in my neighborhood. And now my home is where his security detail lived. Oh, yeah. Because they basically started blocking off the block. I know. It's my neighborhood. So after that election in the Netherlands, and I love this, the prime minister stepped down and then got on his bike and rode away. We live in a such peaceful society. When I'm done, I got on a bike. Yeah, he wanted off on a bike. I mean, I'm like, they win. They win. Let me tell you, they're covered by security. He doesn't need the beast. He doesn't need his kids escorted to school. I have been unfortunately seeing the need for it.

46:15Kara Swisher:They do need it. It's really crazy. But one of the things was I was like, we got to deal with what's happening here. You're going to have crazy people attracted to you. It's going to happen because it's inevitable. And with just the enormous wealth, the same thing. It's really creates real problems. But you should not, whoever did these things are considering it. You are horrible people. That's how you deal with problems. There's lots of ways to deal with problems. And even if you feel desperate, you should seek help. The anger needs to be funneled towards the ballot booth. That's right. And that is, I need people who will keep these people in check.

46:51I need people that when Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk piece out to Florida and Texas, that there are elected representatives who will figure out a way to tax the earnings they accreted from the great states of Washington and from California. I need people who will ensure that social media is gated. There is no reason people under the age of 16. But be clear, folks, if you're waiting on the better angels of these tech executives to show up, don't hold your breath. And then when they take advantage of the system and accrete massive wealth, that is not a cost for violence.

47:25Kara Swisher:We do have to acknowledge there is a huge – I get yelled at for not stopping Elon Musk before. And I get like more than yelled at, like threatened. So I don't know what to say. It's not the way to handle these things. Anyway, lastly, a quick grab bag of other topics I'd like to hit. Over a thousand Hollywood heavyweeds have released a letter opposing Paramount's acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery, saying the deal would harm the industry. Paramount responded to the letter by saying, We hear and understand the concerns of some in our creative community have raised and respect the commitment to protecting and expanding creativity.

47:56Kara Swisher:This transaction uniquely brings together complementary strengths to create a company that can greenlight more projects, back bold ideas, support talent across multiple stages of their careers, and bring stories to audiences of truly global scale while strengthening competition by ensuring multiple-scale players in investing and creative talent. They also said they continue their commitment to increasing output to a minimum of 30 high-quality feature films with full theatrical releases, continuing to license content and brands. And they said, we understand the concerns. We're going to do what we say.

48:30Kara Swisher:Scott and I do not believe them, but they're reestablishing their commitment to it. Very quickly, Scott, reaction. Where's this going? Also, Europe is looking like it's going to possibly block part of it. Slow going? They'll eventually get it through. In what is the greatest movie of all time, Obi-Wan Jedi, Obi-Wan Kenobi feels a disturbance in the forest because the planet of Alderaan is killed by a space laser and millions of people screamed. If this deal goes through, you're going to hear millions of people in the creative community scream because this is going to be the most destructive force of human capital in the creative community we've ever seen.

49:04There is no way they can justify this price if they don't implement the AI that they believe will give them the efficiencies they need to justify this price. So I've been saying this for three months. Where the fuck are the unions?

49:17Kara Swisher:So if it should have gone the way they were going to do it, which was spin off CNN and spin off the studios and then maybe do acquisitions and pieces of it that made economic sense. They're too fucking late. This letter should have come out. They should have said to Allison and also the Gulf states and the people financing this deal, the day this goes through, you are not going to get a single piece of content made. This is unworkable for us. Absolutely. And next one, Elon Musk gave$10 million to two major Republican super PACs at the end of last year, according to campaign finance disclosure.

49:53Kara Swisher:Then the FTC investigated ad firms that had steered clear of Twitter as they are allowed to do, and those firms just settled to make it all go away. I just, this is, he's been using FCC, the FTC in all manner of ways, including Marco Rubio around the Center for Countering Digital Hate in order to get his beefs won that he can't win in court. And the FTC does this and these firms finally just settled, even though it's within their right not to advertise at a Nazi porn bar. Quick thoughts? This goes back to the same thing. That's two things. You need structural reform. He's allowed to do this. Until we get rid of Citizens United, billionaires are going to continue to control more and more.

50:31Billionaires and corporations are going to continue to leak or we're going to continue to leak capital from labor in the middle class and consumers to billionaires and corporations because of their ability to strategically weaponize government. 300 people now are responsible for a fifth of all PAC spending. And guess what? They can deploy it wherever they need it strategically. The best ROI in history. I've said this personally. I give a little bit of money to politicians. I'm shocked. I don't mind that they're whores. What shocked me is what cheap whores they are. Cheap whores.

51:01Kara Swisher:Well, you don't expect the FTC and the FCC. No, I don't ask for anything. But my point is. Usually those agencies didn't do this. And now they. Oh, it's gone. Look, this has been going on for a while. These guys are more brazen about it. And quite frankly, more efficient about it. There needs to be an absolute restriction. Until Citizens United is overturned. Yep. We're going to have more and more of this. Also, until this straight corruption, it used to be more opaque. But I've said if I had someone in prison who I wanted out, I think for between one and three million dollars to a third party, I could get them out within 24 months.

51:40Kara Swisher:Yeah, the head of the FTC and the head of the FCC really are creatures of these of Elon Musk, essentially, and others. And a federal judge has dismissed President Trump's. He doesn't always win$10 billion lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal, which claimed the paper defamed Trump with the story saying he had sent the birthday card to Jeffrey Epstein. The courts keep pushing back at Trump on all. You know, in this case, the Journal fought as opposed to CBS and settled or other other ABC, CBS settled. So it looks like the Journal has a real victory here. You know, I think good thing. I mean, what a stupid he does all these stupid nuisance cases and loses them.

52:18We've been really weak on government corruption. The one, the silver lining here, the thing that's holding is First Amendment. It does feel like both Trump appointees and appointees before Trump are saying free speech is paramount and we're, yeah, we're going to throw this out. The problem is, is enough suits creates a chill. I was talking to a producer of a very popular show and they said, we're checking everything now, double, triple checking. And occasionally when something's on the margin, we don't print it because we're freaked out. But it does appear when these things do go to court, they are universally swatted away.

52:53Kara Swisher:Absolutely. Well, we'll see where that goes. He doesn't have much time. Trump does not have much time. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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53:30Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first? I'll go first. So my win is Kara Swisher wants to live forever. I was pleasantly surprised. I really were shocked. I knew you would do a good job, but I was really surprised, quite frankly, at the production values. It feels cinematic. The colors, the cinematography. It felt very rich, for lack of a better word. You know what it felt like? I thought that could have easily been an original scripted series on Apple TV. It felt very, for lack of a better word, it just felt very rich. So congratulations. I think it's nice for you.

54:04I know you spent a lot of time on it. And I've only seen the first episode, but I really enjoyed it. And it airs Saturday night at 10? When does it air? Nine. Saturday night at nine. Unless J.D.

54:15Kara Swisher:Vance does. Unless J.D. Vance. God, I love that. God, I love that. That made me so happy. I know. I'm like, oh, my God. I turned it on. He texted me. I turned it on because I want you to have good numbers. And I turned on both TVs. I don't know if they count them twice. And then I see J.D. Vance. I'm like, this has to be. I'm like, I'd love to see Kara's face when she saw J.D. Vance in her hour slot. We laughed. You know, we had an extra cup. We had a party. We were having a party in D.C. Tammy had it, ran it. And we had a copy of the show, so we were able to show it to people. But first, we're like, oh, fuck.

54:47Kara Swisher:And it just, the thing is, CNN had a picture of a door. Did you see that for an hour? There was the door that J.D. Vance was behind. And so it was just the door. Where he came out and said, we've got nothing accomplished. I know. Yeah. All right. Thank you, sweetie. That was really nice. My failout, it's not even a failout of two wins. like the election in in hungary is so huge and so wonderful on a lot of levels but my win is victor or bond i i if a fascist who ruled for 16 years can concede an election so can we so can we and think about what we have done in this country if you had a team a basketball team and a head coach and they lost 68 to 72 and then the head coach refused to shake the hand told his team we won the game told the media we won the game refused to show up for the the medal ceremony or whatever it was would you decide to make that guy the head of the league if we can't have the peaceful transfer of power none of this other shit matters and victor orbon Orban, who I'm not a fan of, who I am not a fan of, understood, understood.

56:09He said his - For now.

56:11Kara Swisher:He's only 62, so okay. But he said, Orban said, he called to congratulate Magyar, is that his name? Magyar. And he wrote, Orban said, the responsibility and possibility of governing was not given to us. I mean, a simple line, a simple line. This guy showed more fidelity to democracy than not only our corrupt president, but so many of the people who want to be a judge are willing to do right now. So it's a strange win, but my win goes to Viktor Orban for conceding an election. I am so thrilled for the Hungarian people. It is an inspiration the way they have. And it also, quite frankly, it bodes really well for us because we are a lot more connected than people believe.

57:06Kara Swisher:We have to. Let's see. J.D., when you lose the presidency, you better act like that. Anyway, I have a failed. I usually like when women say their piece, but I thought two women this week weren't so great. Melania Trump made a rare speech to talk about. God, that was weird. It had so much what the fuckity fuck. It was what the hell? Why is she talking about this? We thought there was a story. And then it's just because she's mad about it. She doesn't. She's like, I was not a paid escort or sex trafficked, you know, and it's like, well, like, I think she wants to make it clear she isn't a prostitute or a sex.

57:43Aren't we all prostitutes at some point?

57:46Kara Swisher:I was like, you still like, OK, so you went through a marriage broker kind of thing. She didn't do that, but I think she wants to, doesn't want to, I don't know what she was doing. I thought, what in the actual fuck is happening here? And they say Trump didn't know, but they're such like, I was like, what is happening and why is Epstein back? Like, good, let's talk about Epstein. And then I think she like crapped on the real survivors who really did suffer because, you know, just to get her little peace out there. And what a selfish person she was. Well, she is. What am I talking about? And then this strange profile of Lauren Sanchez in the New York Times, which Katie Couric had the best reaction is, were you forced to do this assignment to the writer Amy Chosek?

58:29Kara Swisher:I didn't know why she was telling me how happy she is, which is great. But I don't know what it was there for. There was nothing to hang it on. I guess the Met Gala? I'm not sure. But it was like so tone deaf. Like, I'm really happy in our$230 million house in Florida. We do gratitude to each other every morning. And just more of this sort of performative romance with Bezos is so icky. I just find it, I just didn't understand it. Kara, do you remember that line from Broadcast News? It's one of the greatest lines in movie history. Tell me. I love that movie. Where William Hurt says to Albert Brooks, what happens when your real life exceeds your wildest dreams?

59:07And Albert Brooks turns and says, keep it to yourself.

59:11Kara Swisher:Keep it to yourself. And my dad, I've been thinking, you know, I love this statement, and I use it as one of the definitions of masculinity. Are you optimizing for attention or service? And Lauren Sanchez, from everything I've heard, is a really nice woman. People who know her say wonderful things about her. Yep, they do. You have an amazing life. Keep it to your fucking self. Talking about your amazing life and virtue signaling. I have a buddy who is so successful, such a good friend, such a good citizen, and he's a fucking disaster when it comes to his relationships. And I said to him, I said, don't you have any really good friends that can tell you what they think of what you're doing?

59:53Who saves you from yourself?

59:55Kara Swisher:Nobody here. She's got the money. And this is the same thing with Lauren. It's like, don't you have any friends to say to you, go, girl, have an amazing life. Do good things with your money. Take care of your parents. Take care of your community. Give money away. You don't need articles in the New York Times talking about what a spiritual, wonderful person you are and how wonderful your relationship is. There's no way. It's just going to make you look like an asshole. That's my question, Kara. Don't these people have friends? Especially as the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos just gave$70 million to Meals on Wheels and never said a word about herself.

1:00:31About the mugs they have or hunk or. Hunk. Hunk.

1:00:37Kara Swisher:She needs friends. Well, she has friends. She has the wrong friends. Lauren, call us up. We'll help you. We'll bring you back down to earth. But I don't think she cares. I think she could do so much good, and instead she's, I just don't know. It's something I struggle with. My dad told me just, I started to get some success before he passed away. And the last thing he said to me that really stuck with me was he said, the key to happiness in America is to be rich and anonymous. You said that to me a long time ago, Scott. I loved when you said that to me. And he said to me, he said, he goes, I'm really happy that you've achieved the former.

1:01:12I'm worried about the latter.

1:01:13Kara Swisher:Oh, smart thing for your brain. You don't appreciate the value of anonymity. Well, too bad. Too late. But if you ever do an interview about us cuddling and doing gratitude, I'll fucking kill you. I gave her a mug. I gave her a mug. It said, you look like Rachel Maddow's accountant. I gave you a mug that says - No, Rachel Maddow's mechanic. That's your fashion sense. I gave you a see you next Tuesday mug. Oh my God. Aren't we adorable? I know we're adorable. Aren't we adorbs? Adorbs. My win is another outspoken woman, Hax, is final season. I saw the first episode. So good. Jean Smart, Hannah Einbender, the whole frigging cast.

1:01:53Kara Swisher:It's about a woman who talks out loud and is so wonderful. I just love it, love it, love it. And I just, I recommend everybody watch this last season. The whole team there is spectacular. There's not, and they all share in the wonderfulness. And I have to say, it's very sweet. It's about a family. It's about, anyway, Jean Smart is really a woman I'd like to have keep talking. And by the way, her speech in last season was so prescient about companies trying to quiet performers and comedians and stuff like that. So I thought that was amazing. So please watch it. It's worth it. It's on HBO Max. My favorite, one of my favorite lines.

1:02:28they're going to name a street after you. It'll probably be a dead end with an abortion clinic.

1:02:34Kara Swisher:Just beautiful writing. Anyway, those are the kind of things I think you should pay attention because it'll make you laugh out loud. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on ON, I talked more about my CNN series, Karen Swisher Wants to Live Forever, on the topic of longevity. I talked to a panel of experts, including journalist Katie Couric. She talked about why people seem more inclined to trust dubious wellness claims than doctors.

1:03:04Kara Swisher:Obviously, Katie was really well known for being one of the first people to call attention to colon cancer. Her husband died of this, and she had a colonoscopy on camera. Speaking of power of broadcast news back then, it was really important to bringing down cancer rates. Really amazing things she did and continues to do. Let's listen to a clip. People want answers. And honestly, they often don't like the answers that they get. You know, they want to believe. You know, my joints hurt. I want to believe that collagen is going to make me less achy when I get up in the morning. I want to believe that I'm going to be more flexible with collagen, you know.

1:03:41And so I think that people, you know, are grasping for ways to feel better. And I think there is a lot of suffering out there.

1:03:52Kara Swisher:Really smart voice on all this. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Earning her time to interview that episode, Rich Chibley edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mille Silverio and Dan Chalon. Yashat Koro is Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod.

1:04:22We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Congratulations to the good people of Hungary who voted for Europe, who voted for Ukraine, who voted for progressive politics. And congratulations to Viktor Orban after 16 years of rule conceded the election.

1:04:40You