Stock Market Surge, Kara's X Defection, and Guests Samantha Bee and Joanna Coles

24:19contrarian media does better when the other guy or gal is in the audience. Yeah, I think we'll do very well with this. And sadly, I sound like Jeff Zucker. What is also happening in podcasting is that the biggest podcast, the biggest podcasting platform is the biggest streaming platform. And that is the biggest podcasting platform is now YouTube. And that is if you are not getting more views from your podcast on YouTube, it means that your podcast is not thriving. Yeah, we're moving. We're both moving that way with all our properties. So we're going to be heavy on that this year. Anyway, I want to mention, just to finish up this section, the last episode of On with Kara Swisher, I assembled a panel of experts for a post-election deep dive.

25:00Pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, who's also on The Chris Wallace Show with me, explained what she thought. This is an interesting take. I find her to be one of the smartest pollsters around. She's been correct about everything that she thought the biggest media moment for Trump was. It was not Joe Rogan. Let's listen. I think it is important to note that Joe Rogan's podcast appearance was not actually the thing that had broken through the most in the month before. By a long shot, the thing that had broken through the most was Donald Trump working a shift at McDonald's. So, well, this is not to say that the podcast election isn't a thing, but I do think that it's not just about the medium.

25:38It's about things that are a unique message that are unexpected. Maybe they're memeable. There's something that amuse, entertain, make your jaw drop, whatever. Like that is still the stuff that breaks through. The content still matters, even as the medium is changing. For the record, Donald Trump did not work a shift at McDonald's. Yeah, but it looked like he did. For what it's worth. That was Washington Post reporter Isaac Arnstorf, great reporter, chiming in with that clarification. I thought Kristen made an excellent point. Like, I think she's talking about a bigger picture, which I like. I appreciate.

26:12Yeah, I thought the three biggest moments were actually, I mean, if she has the data. She does have the data, yeah. But I would have thought the three biggest were Call Her Daddy, Joe Rogan, and then the debate. But she's saying that it was the McDonald's thing because it got a lot of shampoo or echo effect across social media. Yeah, and people noticed it and picked up. The debate, they were all up there, but she said the McDonald's thing was very important, which we all made fun of, but it worked. The most insightful comment on polls was made by Madonna in the movie Truth or Dare, where she suggested that her employees take a poll and stick it up their ass.

26:53Okay, let's go on a quick break when we come back. Why people might want to leave X for good this week if they haven't already. And we'll speak with friends of Pivot, Samantha Bee and Joanna Coles.

27:06There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025 are late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, and that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

27:55That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

28:03Scott, we're back. X has updated his terms of service to say that any users lawsuits against the platform will have to go to a federal court in Northern District of Texas. To be clear, this is as of November 15th on Friday. The platform isn't if you're still on the platform. I'm coming off on Thursday. The platform is not located in the district, which frequently rules in favor of conservative parties. That's his favorite place. The Northern District is already the venue for X's lawsuits against liberal watchdog media matters in the suit accusing advertisers of boycotting, which Mark Andreessen idiotically weighed in on.

28:35Mark, for someone so smart, you're so stupid. The initial judge on those two cases recused himself from the antitrust case after it was revealed he owned shares of Tesla, but it's still Elon's favorite judge. So if you are on there and you want to sue Elon and Twitter, X, you need to do it in that court in Texas as of Friday. If you are still a user of the service, also in X's new terms of service, by continuing to use X after November 15th, users will agree that the platform can use their data to train AI models. I'm right now deleting all my tweets because I don't want him to use them, as many as I can.

29:13So what do you think about that? I understand your logic now around wanting to delete your—I'm not as worried about data being used for AI models. The reason I got off is I don't want to—you summarized it perfectly for me. I don't need to paint this guy's fucking fence. Yeah, but you're still on there. I'm saying as long as you're a member of his service, you can't—if you ever have a beef with them, you have to go to Texas. Well, I know that, but it's standard procedure for any corporation to try and get trials moved to the most favorable jurisdiction, including if you're accused of— Not like this.

29:48This is unusual. I've talked to a dozen lawyers. This is unusual. I'm sorry, I have no comment. Tell me what's going on here, Kara. All right. The headquarters is in Bastrop, Texas, which is a different district than this one. They're pointing—most of them point where their headquarters is, whether it was San Francisco or whatever, somewhere near. It's not some random district in Texas where he has his favorite judge. There is judge shopping. This is unusual. Isn't it standard procedure for corporations and defendants to go jurisdiction or, as you called it, judge shopping? No, it isn't. Not like this.

30:24It's standard, say, Delaware or, you know, to you have to have some good reason. This is what these lawyers tell me. It's unusual to pick a thing that has nothing to do with any of your businesses. They're just putting it in there because they can't. It's like saying everyone will be tried in Kuala Lumpur. But doesn't that mean someone in the government isn't doing their job by letting them do that? I don't think it's illegal. So why wouldn't everyone do it? I don't understand it. You're just saying he's smarter than every other corporation? Or he wants, well, I think shameless. Oh, come on. I mean, you don't think other corporations are shameless?

31:00Scott, don't normalize this. This is strange to do. Moving to the jurisdiction that is most favorable to him and his shareholders? You don't think every. That has nothing to do with any of his companies. You think other companies go, oh, that's that's that is not right. I will I will not move it to a more favorable court. But they haven't. Look at that. They haven't. Why haven't they? Don't I'm sure people have thought of this, but they don't do it. People don't do it. It has some of the probably because they have more conservative lawyers and he doesn't care to be conservative. That's my guess.

31:28It might backfire. Who knows? But has it been approved? Proved. It's done. He just says it. He just says it because it's in the terms of service. And by using the service, you agree to the terms of service. No, no, I'm not talking about terms of service. I was talking about he's moved his headquarters to Texas. And if you move your headquarters to— But not to this district. Not to this district. Okay. It's a different district, which is less kind to him. Where his headquarters are is a different district than this district. There's two judges in this district. And he also owns Tesla stock. Aren't there conflicts of interest rules against that?

32:02If you're a judge, don't you have to recuse yourself? He's like that woman in Florida. He recused himself in some cases, and then he doesn't. It's literally like the plot of Roadhouse. I'm sorry. But my understanding is when she did that, another court, it was an effective delay tactic, but eventually her decisions weren't they? I mean, I still like to think there are that the legal system is still a pillar that's mostly standing. Yes, you would think that. But we are living in a version of roadhouse. Like the big guy gets to decide. I don't know what to say. This is not normal. This is not normal.

32:35It is not. Anyway, very quickly, everyone wants to be a digital nomad. Now that Donald Trump has won a second term as president, you know, the threats of moving to Canada. But Google searches for best countries to move to and how to move to Canada peaked. Over 50 countries, including New Zealand and Japan, offer digital nomad visas. Digital nomading, which I think you kind of are, also boomed during the pandemic when working in office was rare. Now back to the office mandates are more common. Who's going to follow Scott and be a digital nomad? I think that's just an empty threat for most people.

33:04I'm not a digital nomad. The tail is wagging the dog and the tail is our kids. We basically dictate where we're going to live based on what would be the most interesting experience for them and what would be the best high school. But something I have noticed here that's really big in the UK is this non-dom thing, and that is people who were non-domiciled here and were paying more favorable tax rates based on a country of origin where they established tax status, which includes many of the wealthiest people in London. The new government has said that that shit's over. And if you've been here a certain amount of time, you got to pay UK taxes, which for a lot of people is a much greater tax rate.

33:39And they didn't think, including me, I didn't think these folks are going to move. I have a friend who's moving to Italy and leaving his family here. I have another friend who's moving back to Hong Kong, they estimate that their treasury is actually going to collect less receipts with higher taxes because what they fail to realize is that rich people are the most mobile in the world. And until we have some sort of multilateral minimum alternative minimum tax, you're just, you know, folks are going to, folks are just going to keep moving. Rich people will find the way through just like Trump did that with the taxes.

34:12Like when he said, why shouldn't I cheat? Not cheat. Why shouldn't I try to get out of taxes? I think he's truthful. Are you a digital nomad? You don't think you are? No, I didn't. No, I'm very much stationary. I think of a digital nomad as somebody who says, I have a job where I can make good money, work remote, and I'm going to move to Mexico City. I'm going to move to a lower cost of living. When I moved from New York to Florida, I recognized it was very accretive in terms of my lifestyle because when I moved in 2010, it was much less expensive in Florida. These geographic or lifestyle arbitrages ultimately gets starched out as it has in Florida, as real estate has doubled or tripled in the last 13 years.

34:50But I go, I mean, I'm now living in a city that's as expensive or more expensive than New York. I would, again, I'm at this point, I spent the first half of my life focused on making money. I'm going to spend the next half focused on, and this is a great thing, spending it. And my reductive analysis is the following, having molested the earth for the last 35 years. America is the best place to make money. Europe is the best place to spend it. I'm focused on spending money right now. So I'm living in Europe, but it has, I don't think of myself. As a matter of fact, my life would be, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow at oh fucking dark hundred hours.

35:24I'm going to meet me. That's right. I'm going New York, New York for 50 hours. And I'm going to Cabo San Lucas for summit. Then I'm going to LA for Netflix. And I'm going to Vegas for a speaking gig. And then I'm going to fucking South. And F1. And F1, yes. Can I just tell you, the world's tiniest violin is playing for you right now over somewhere. I can't hear it. I'm about primarily what's good for my kids, where I can make money, and where I can have the most fun. And then I'm going to Sao Paulo for a speaking gig, and then I'm coming home. Don't you make these choices, Scott? If I was a therapist, I'd say, don't you make these choices.

36:01My worst day is most people's best day. But I'm a nomad, but I wouldn't qualify as a digital nomad. A digital nomad is someone in ad tech. I'm super excited to be next to you in the old folks' home, the two of us. You're going to be wheeling me around. Are you kidding? Yeah, I am. I make sure people stay away from you and they don't grab your junk. People are going to have to look over my head and over the back of the wheelchair to see you. But you're going to be pushing me around. Oh, don't touch his junk. I'm protecting him. Bitching at me. Where is his applesauce? Where is it? Change his catheter.

36:34He's in a bad mood. Oh, I will take such good care of his gut. I will die like in seconds and you will be weeping. I'm counting on it. I'm counting on it. Anyway. All right. Let's bring in our friends of Pivot.

36:54Samantha Bee is a comedian, a writer, and a contributor to The Daily Beast. Joanna Coles is the chief content officer for The Daily Beast. Together they host The Daily Beast podcast. Sam and Joanna, welcome. Thank you so much for having us. It's so fun to be here. I know. We're having a podcast fest here. It's been one week since the election, so we're mostly past the initial hot takes. Let's hear your colder takes. So why don't you start, Sam? Well, I, you know, when it first happened, I was a little comatose, I will say, that I kind of, I had wrung out all of my emotion. I could not summon a single tear.

37:33And then I kind of hibernated for about 24 hours. And today I woke up feeling very much like we need to straighten our spines, stiffen up titanium and just get really fucking real. I definitely changed. I will say that I did this. I'm changing my I'm changing my voting status. I'm changing my party affiliation to independent. Just as a little just as a little unsubscribe, subscribe. That'll show up. You know, that'll show up. That'll show up. You are such a gangster. You can be on CNN panels now. I don't know who I'm going to vote with. I know, exactly. I'm not really, it's not that I'm like GOP curious.

38:12I'm more like a little Democrat celibate, I think. That'll be my empty gesture for the next few years. She's coming over to the libertarian side. Oh, stop it. Libertarian line. No, no, no. Actually, the numbers aren't quite as impressive as people. They're putting out all the numbers today, which they won fair and square, but the numbers are a little closer than they thought. Wait, hold on, Cara. Just let me describe exactly what happened. They fucking destroyed us, Cara. They went seven for seven in the swing stage. Yes, I understand. But the actual, I get it. But I will send them to you, Scott.

38:44The actual results are they won everywhere where it mattered. That's called winning by a landslide. I understand that, but it's not a landslide. Again, I keep sending you landslide numbers. 100 % no is the wrong word. They run in the right places is where you did it. Go ahead. That's like saying I had a landslide because my PSA is low, but my cholesterol is fucking off the charts. Yeah, but you don't have a landslide. If a football game is like 32 to 28, it's not a landslide. Anyway, Joanna, let's talk about you. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, isn't the total number of votes in the blue wall states actually that they won by fewer than the number of people who canceled their subscriptions to The Washington Post?

39:28Yeah, that's good. Thank you, Joanna. Go ahead. How are you feeling? Clever, obviously. Well, in my dreams, I feel clever. I feel slightly more optimistic than Sam does, partly because I spent some time with people who've spent some time with the Trump transition team. And they say that Donald Trump's motivation is he's got two things that are driving him. One, obviously, immigration, and he wants to make a big deal of that. And there will be lots of photo opportunities of that. And then like everything else he touches, it'll slightly fall apart. That he really wants to work on the economy. But actually, what he really wants to do is have a good time.

40:09He's spent the last four years with the threat of jail over him. That goes away now. He can't believe what he's pulled off. He spent the last few days having world leaders call him and business leaders call him and say, well done. He's in his happy place. He wants to be admired. He wants to be king of the world. He wants to sit behind his Oval Office desk and have people come and kiss his ring. That's what he wants. So Rumspringer in the White House. We can all look forward to that. That'll be exciting. Yeah, interesting. But he has brought some characters with him who cause him trouble. But anyway, we'll talk about it in a minute.

40:43We talked a lot on our show about how it was a podcast election. We've said that on Pivot quite a bit and Trump going on the right wing and Manosphere podcast. What do you think about the role? We debated it back and forth. I I think it's a little bit overblown, but true, as we're doing rather well and growing and doing well financially. And at the same time, Mark Cuban posited it was a little more complex than that. It's about sort of that reverse engineering algorithms to reach people. So how do you think liberals can and should compete in the space moving forward? Joanna, first. Well, if I were Kamala, I would have done the Joe Rogan podcast.

41:19It was unfathomable to me that she didn't do that and that she didn't fly and go down there and kiss the ring of this man that's got extraordinary reach. And also, I think, you know, people like the fact that it goes on and on and on. I mean, I'm impressed that people have time to listen to it, but obviously they break it up over days or at least hours. but to have a proper conversation with someone to actually try and get to know them, which is not what traditional media does that has people on and just tries to get them. And I think that that's one of the mistakes of the legacy media interviews, that there's always this sense of hostility.

41:59And Scott, you're living in London at the moment. The BBC has led the world in this. I mean, there was a a wonderful but very controversial interviewer called Jeremy Paxman, who once asked the same politician the same question 32 times. He just kept asking the question to try and break the politician down. And in the end, I think it's self-defeating because the audience sees it, they don't like it, and you're not getting to know someone better. It's a really interesting conversation. It's like very hard to think about because as I'm sitting here and we're all talking about this and kind of breaking it down, We're trying to figure out who we're going to have guests, which guests we're going to have on the podcast and what kind of guests and what feels right going into this.

42:42It's like creating a constitution for yourself or figuring out what your red lines are, too, because there are people that I would not. I'm not really interested in having people on and laundering their reputations. Who? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I know you have a list. Kelly. OK, Kelly and Conway. All right. Like, why have her on? Why have her on? You see, I think it's interesting to have people on because I want to be able to ask them questions, particularly people I don't agree with. Sam is a bit more, well, when we met to do this podcast, Sam reminded me that she was a fake journalist because she used to play a journalist on The Daily Show brilliantly, absolutely brilliantly.

43:22I always feel that everybody's worth a question, but as long as you can ask an honest question. I just have a thicker red line around the people I will and will not talk to. Will I have to bend that? What does that mean? What does that look like? I'm trying to figure it out for myself. So you at that Republican convention asking, what's the one you're looking for choice? One of my favorites. That was one of my favorite things. One of my favorites. Scott? So, Joanna. Join the lady pool, Scott. Come on in the water. Scott is sitting very respectfully to the side here. The water is so amniotic. Hey, I went to a WNBA game.

44:05Oh, I love that you worked the word amniotic and some fluid. Fluid. So, Joanna, my understanding is you're a large owner in the Daily Beast now. Samantha, you're a contributor to the Daily Beast. Is that right? Yeah. And starting a podcast? So I think of the Daily Beast is this really cute, interesting media property that's hemorrhaged money and makes no sense economically. What are you planning to do to bring new life and figure out how the Daily Beast competes in this new media age and is a viable economic entity? Well, what we're interested in is people, politics, power, and pop culture. And there is a space in the market.

44:55Do that again? Do that again. I can do it fast. I can do it slow. I can do it backwards in heels. People, power, politics, and pop culture. Oh, wow. Okay. Also penis a little bit, but that's my reading of the place. But go ahead. Well, when appropriate, Cara, when appropriate. But I would say that what we're trying to do is rethink how we talk about people and power, which I think people are very interested in. We have a very robust business model. We haven't been valued like Vice or like BuzzFeed at preposterous valuations with all sorts of venture capital money that came in. That's not our business model, but we've got very robust subscription growth.

45:37We have advertising, both programmatic and brand. We've got events coming. We've got all sorts of plans to actually take the Beast brand, which is extremely robust, and expand it. And so far it's doing well. And I don't think I'm breaking any confidences. It's a nice brand. A lot of awareness. It's a great brand. And Tina Brown and Barry Diller started that brand. It's been fantastic. There was a sort of moment when I think it veered into the arm of the resistance, which is not what Ben Sherwood, my partner, and I are interested in doing anymore. But I will tell you that we've just had our first profitable quarter.

46:12Okay, congratulations. I think possibly ever in the history of the beast, actually. Can you address that pushback from the resistance? You got a pretty tough piece in the New York Times that was tough, I would say, or unfair if you thought it was. But talk about the pushback, because it seems to be aimed at you and Ben. Well, the pushback was from people who've left. They still can be accurate. But how did you take it? Did you just say, I just dismiss it and out of hand? I think what the piece highlighted was that the Beast had lost money ever since it had begun and that it had lost audience for the last eight quarters, quarter after quarter.

46:54Q on Q, it had lost money and it had lost readers. So I'm not sure that that's a winning strategy. Right. But is there anything in there that made you pause? When I read Criticism Me, I listen to some of it, for sure. I think increase in readership and increase in revenue is extremely encouraging, actually, when you're running a business. Yes, when you're running a business. I would argue that there are worse things than being criticized, a new media property being criticized by the New York Times. I think you want that. I think I wear that like a badge of honor. Well, I think what was interesting for us was when you got to the end of the piece, they actually discussed the numbers, which are very positive.

47:38So I think what happens in journalism is you talk to people who will talk to you. Obviously, lots of people who'd worked here that didn't like our vision for the beast, which was to make it profitable and successful. Your vision was to fire them. Those are the people who spoke at the time. Oh, come on. You can't disagree. No, that wasn't our vision, actually. Our vision is to grow a business that has more original journalism. That's what we're leaning towards. And you can only do that if you have an economically viable base. And the thing was about to be sold. The thing was about to be sold. And it doesn't matter how wonderful a property you are if you're not economically sustainable.

48:15Right. Anyways, so, Sam, I don't know if you consider yourself a comedian or a commentator. I don't know what I consider myself. I'm just going with the flow, to be honest with you. Just considered. Just considered. I'm curious how in this, things are so polarized, so angry right now. How have you, if at all, tried to adapt your career in terms of the mediums, the approach you take, how you make money? How has your quote unquote business model changed in the face of how much the environment has changed and the media landscape has changed? She has also fired everybody too. I was fired. So, but, you know, I knew that I was going to be fired, so it wasn't like a huge surprise.

48:58And I had a really good run at my show. My business model has changed in that I now only do things that are pleasing to me personally and professionally because I have the freedom to do that. I am in a privileged position to be able to consider every job that comes along and kind of weigh it against what my own needs and desires are. I have to do podcasts with needy, insulting people. people. I completely made you. Anyway. Tina Fey to her Alec Baldwin. It is so rewarding to rejuvenate a flailing career. It is so rewarding. You are Alec Baldwin and headed that direction. But let's go on. Anyway, let's move on.

49:43What is different? Like comedy? Like, look, you saw Tony Hinchcliffe and stuff and the whole group around Joe Rogan. You know, of the bros helping each other. What is comedy now as a business? How do you look at it? And obviously, The Daily Show is doing okay. It's doing, they have this group of people that's kind of interesting. It is my greatest pleasure to kind of be out, to actually be independent of that world and consume the products that I like to consume and not have to worry about it too much. I'll tell you, truly, I'm not, there's no one job that I'm personally gunning for. I really mean it when I say that I do things that interest me It interests me to do this Daily Beast podcast Because I really like Joanna I think she's spicy and fun And I love to be at the ground floor when things are rebuilding That's exciting to me I'm writing a book That's exciting to me There's nothing that I'm doing just for money I probably should But I'm not that interested in it I'm not that interested in re-entering In trying to re-enter the world of political comedy If it doesn't, if there's no place for me in it, that's perfectly fine with me.

50:47My life is quite happy and I'm quite happy to be a commentator in this capacity. That's enough for me. It checks that box. But beyond you, what is happening in the comedy world? It's obviously gone TikTok. It's gone social media. There's all kinds of independents, whether it's someone like Louis C.K. or whoever. A lot of these people are doing things on their own. How do you look at the comedy ecosystem now? It used to be there was a way to go up and you ultimately got the show, right? Or the stand-up show on HBO, etc. Right, right, right. I mean, that is the entire ecosystem is so different. It's very much like it's just spread across so many platforms.

51:24People can access whatever it is that they want. People can become a famous comedian in half a year because their TikToks did great and they can suddenly fill stadiums and be doing stadium shows. It is a really super different landscape. And there's also a tremendous amount of hand-wringing about censorship and people trying to stop people's messages from getting out. And these are all very successful, usually male comedians who make it their business model to pretend that someone's coming for them or their point of view. Obviously, it's just not true. And it's not something that I'm participating in.

52:04I'm doing my own show. I literally did a show called How to Survive Menopause because that's really important to me. And I think it's so fucking funny and so untapped. And I had stuff I wanted to say and I did it. And I did it on a stage in front of hundreds of screaming women. And it was like exactly where I want to be. Exactly talking about the self-selecting exact things that I want to talk about. And I do think that there's more of an opportunity for that in comedy. And I'm harnessing that opportunity for myself. Men are also interested in how to survive menopause. Oh, yeah, you should be.

52:35you should come to my show. Scott, you know what? I'll come to your house and I'll do the show for you in person. You'll love it. I like that. I'll invite some friends over it. I attended the show and it was full of middle-aged women throwing their underwear at Sam. Oh, lovely. That's great. That's a great visual. Very dry underwear. Oh, my God. Good show. Good show. I'm blushing. There's two things I blush at. Amniotic fluid, once again. All right. Yeah, Scott, you would blush at the show. You would blush at the show, Scott. Yeah. You guys should call your show Caller Granddaddy. All right, let's get back to you.

53:08I just made that up. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. That was good. Is it though? Is it? Yeah. That was good. That was pretty good. It was good. It was ages, but perfect. Can I ask you another question? My question is more interesting than yours on this topic, Cara. All right, go ahead. If it's about the podcast, let's talk about the podcast. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, Cara was the first guest on our podcast. I was. Because we knew that we, at first, we were a bit like Trump. We wanted to pay homage to the doyen of it. I'm sure they wanted to ask you, Scott, but the invitation was lost in the mail.

53:37Well, I think we have an ask out to Scott, but he just ignores my text. It's building from the premiere podcast. Anyways, I'm fascinated by the Daily Beast brand. I think it has huge awareness, and I think it has this nice, modern, cool feel to it. I always thought the best thing about the brand was, quite frankly, was the design, which I think is super important. You could go into podcasts, which you're obviously doing. I mean, you could be like the cruel truth of capitalism is you have finite resources. And the only decision you have to make is not what to do. It's what not to do. So are you going to do where are you going to put the majority of your wood behind original journalism?

54:12Are you going to do it more around? I would love to see the DailyVis go into events. Do you want to put a bunch of cool content that's more fun and I don't know, joyous, but gossipy behind a paywall? Like what? I'm just curious. Well, we have a paywall. I mean, here's the first thing we're doing is right sizing the business, right? I paid for it. Who paid for it? Kara Swisher, and then complained about your system. Thank you very much, Dora. Yeah, but it's much better now because we've changed the tech. I was going to, but I heard the first podcast sucked. Yeah. Well, that was the guess. That was the guess.

54:43Look, the first thing we're doing is right-sizing the business. We've changed the tech, so hopefully you don't bump up against a paywall or a subscription that you've paid for that doesn't recognize you. We've changed the content management system. There's a lot of sort of reorganization that needed to happen. It was a 15-year-old business running on a 15-year-old proprietary tech. So we had to change all that. We've done that. So we've got a lot of things coming. We have a sort of three-year plan for expansion of The Beast. And our ultimate goal is to have lots of original journalism, as well as summaries of other stories going on there, as well as lots of opinions about what's happening out there, and to have a really robust Daily Beast network.

55:26work, but you can't do it overnight. I mean, I was fascinated that New York Magazine did a piece on us two and a half weeks after I'd started saying, why isn't it already done? This is never going to work kind of thing. You're like, A, women get much more critical press than men, but B, it's like, seriously, does anybody know what it's like to turn a company around? This is not the first turnaround I've done. Ben Sherwood, my partner, has done turnarounds too. You have to right-size the business before you can do anything. And that's what we're in the process of doing. How the two of you already discussed what your approach to Trump 2.0 will be?

56:02I mean, I'm looking on the Daily Beast page. There's a lot of Trump. Well, for example, this week, we're talking to Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist, about how to deal with polarization in the workplace. Everybody, you know, regardless of whether or not you're working at home or you're working in an office, everybody's aware that you have to be very sensitive around other people's opinions. How do you still work effectively in an environment which may be increasingly polarized? And I think that we actually haven't sat down and had those conversations about like, what do we what direction do we want to?

56:35I mean, I remember in 2016 when I had my show, we sat down the day after Trump won and we went, the show is totally different now. We don't know what it is, but we know that it is different because the world is very different. So what do we want to do? Like, are we just here to plant a flag and say this is right, this is wrong? Like, what is the purpose of this? And we actually have not sat down to have that conversation, but we will because— What would you say if you had—right off the top of your head right now? What does interest you? Like, you said in your last podcast episode that you're worried about Trump's vengeance and retribution, what it means for the state of journalism, for example.

57:12Yeah. And Daily Beast, by the way, published a piece last week, Trump Loves the Media Glare, yet he also wants revenge. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a really, I think it's, it's, it's important for us to sit and have this conversation. It's like, I haven't quite gotten to exactly what I do want it to be, but I know what I don't want it to be for myself. Which is? Angry and? I think I'm very willing to have interesting, hard conversations with people. But a podcast is a different experience than a straight interview show. Like, do we want to have combative conversations in a podcast? I'm not sure I really want that for myself, and I'm not sure an audience is there for it.

57:54And it's a, you know, do we, are we offering people something that they can't just get from reading an article? I do think that we, for me, what I love that we do do is we talk to reporters who are reporting on the ground. So I like getting that background information from people. And that is something that I think is very useful that we'll take forward. I'm not sure that we've developed our constitution yet exactly. What about you, Joanna? What's interesting how you see Daily B is covering the new Trump era? Well, first of all, I like hearing what Sam has to say because she's always got a point of view of things.

58:28I like asking questions, trying to figure it out. We talk to a lot of people who are both on the Democratic side and on Trump's side. So we try and report what we're hearing. And we love to cover people. Donald Trump is the most interesting person in the world. He's just pulled off the most extraordinary political comeback that nobody saw coming. He didn't see it coming either. and here was a man who faced, you know, two options, either go to jail or be president of the United States. It's an extraordinary story. And I want to be able to cover that story with all the nuances that we possibly can to talk to all the people who are close to power and report back what they are saying, what they're feeling, what they're hearing.

59:14It's incredibly interesting. It's a massive human drama. I sometimes think we are all just characters. We're extras in his reality show that he's turned America into. And, you know, if you're in the media, it's a fascinating relationship with Trump. He is a tabloid president. The media created him. He had 16 seasons of The Apprentice before he ran. And he's brilliant at knowing how to get attention. His McDonald's gag was brilliant. His garbage vest was brilliant. He understands media. And if you're in the media, it's very interesting to pay attention. And he's not a regular politician. He's an entertainer first.

59:56He has fans, not just voters. And I think this is partly what the Democrats failed to really understand about him, that they were doing business as usual and he's not candidate as usual. Yeah. I hate to use the word brilliant with respect to Donald Trump. I think instinctive is more. So just so I can virtue signal, I like the Daily Beast, but I love Joanna Coles. Can you guys see this? I just signed up for the ad-free model. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. You see? $110. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. This Joey Bag of Donuts podcast called Pivot better pay off at some point. Anyways, my question is, Joanna, you've been in media for a long time.

1:00:41Sam, you've been in media on kind of the content side. Well, I guess you're on the content side as well as the business side, Joanna. But what are some media properties across anything that you really admire and you think are great role models or even just people who you think are doing a great job leveraging new channels of media? Who and what do you look up to in this landscape? Do you mean other than the Pivot podcast? Go on. We are the owners. We are the owners. Obviously, Pivot. I love the information. I think Jessica Lesson saw a gap in the market, which covering tech other than Cara. Cara had been doing this forever.

1:01:19But I think what Jessica's done with the information is really good. Tina Brown, former editor of the Daily Beast, has a very good sub stack. There's so much out there. There's just not enough time. What about you, Sam? What do you consume? Well, I identify like a gap in the marketplace because I miss Gawker. I still miss Gawker. That was a spicy way for me to get everything I needed at the beginning of every day. I liked it. It was fun to read. When it was at its best. It was fun to read. When it was at its best. I like when they ruin people's lives for clicks for no fucking reason. Well, I didn't like that part necessarily, but it was a snarky, fun way to start the day.

1:01:54Or interesting. Let her have her choice, Scott. Go ahead. Sorry. No, it's over. I lost my train of thought. I see. You ruined it. You know what I mean? You ruined it. I did not predict that Sam B. would be a Gawker fan. I would. I could see why. When it was doing the interesting stuff, you're absolutely right. But look, Elon Musk has done it 26 times by tweeting at people, whether it's Yole Roth or whatever. So just saying. Yeah, and we're so kind to him. You're right. Double standard. You're right. Okay, fine. I liked part of it. Sam, I get it. When Gawker was at its best before, I do agree it degenerated in a way that was really ugly.

1:02:28But when it was its best, it would make me laugh out loud. All right. Last question. If you, you know, when you're thinking about the next year of what you're going to be doing here and what you're doing, is there, besides Trump, is there anything else that's interesting to each of you? Joanna, what's interesting to you? Is it all Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump? Well, you know what I'm going to be really interested in next year, and I think this is going to be a huge story, is assuming it comes to trial and he doesn't do a plea deal is the Diddy story. how that happened in plain sight with all these celebrities who we know were there, how he managed to use celebrities as air cover for these freak offs where he was drugging people.

1:03:17I mean, Scott, maybe you can explain to me, why is it? Freak offs. And I'm not holding you up. I'm not holding you up. Can't wait for this. But the thing I don't understand in any of this is— This is called setting me up for failure. So not. Scott, I am your biggest fan. But I'm very curious. One of the big differences I think, I hope between—well, one of the differences I observe between men and women is I don't understand why people want to have sex with people when they are drugged and unconscious. What is—where is the pleasure in that? And you're asking me because you think I'd be able to explain that?

1:04:02No, because you're a guy. Because you're a guy. And I feel like this is something men do. Men, there are no stories of women doing this right now. I'm going to jump to the defense of men in general. This is not a common... This isn't a guy or a girl thing. This is a criminal psychotic behavior thing. Okay, that makes me feel better. A male, most likely, a male district attorney will put him in front of a male prison guard very soon, correctly. Okay, that makes me feel better. I'm not anti-men. I even gave birth to two men. Explain us the rapey nature of men. What is it? Thank you. Next. Go. All right, Sam, answer.

1:04:46Okay, 30 seconds. Sam, you end up trying to get us out of that situation. I can't get us out of that. That's actually what I'm here for in the next year. I'm like, I— Segway out. Listen, that's going to be one hell of a story. It's a hell of a story. That Diddy story is one hell of a story. Agreed. I'm just, I'm actually here for, I want to talk about the Diddy story too. And all, I mean, and I'm here for Joanna and her shameless approach to interviewing. And I'm here to have fun. I want to, of course, we're going to talk about Trump. Of course, we're going to talk about the stuff that he does.

1:05:18But it's not like the world stops spinning. It's not like other stories don't emerge. And we want to talk about those things, too, because the one thing that I can't not be is completely interested in the news cycle at all times of the day or night, whether I'm on TV or on a podcast. And so I think it's like an exciting opportunity. Anyway, thank you, Samantha Bee and Joanna Coles. And be sure to listen to the Daily Beast podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you, Greg. Thanks. Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Joanna. All right, Scott, that was fun with the ladies. We should do a quadruple. That was fun. Quintuple.

1:05:51Quadruple? A quadruple? A quadruple. What's it called? Not a thruple. Oh, you mean like a foursome? I'm down. Okay. I'm down. Polycule. Oh. A polycule? Oh, I like that. They're both attractive women. Anyway, we'll be back for wins and fails. You're a very attractive man, Scott Galloway. Thanks for that.

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1:06:47Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You know, I have two wins. I need more wins. There's just no getting around it. This has been a rough week for me. I'm not even sure why, because I know rationally nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. And I think personally, I don't think my life's going to be affected that much. But I was just so invested in this and just so wrong about it. There's just no getting around it. This has really rattled me more than any other election outcome. And I struggle. I'm easily, you know, it's not easy to send me down to a pretty dark place. And I have a whole host of things that make me feel better.

1:07:27And a couple new things have actually made me feel better, shockingly. And I hate to admit it, but I want to call balls and strikes. One of those things is Threads. I've actually really enjoyed Threads. It's getting better. And I found a lot of really interesting content on it. And I hate to say anything nice about Meta, but Threads has been nice for me this week. People like to bang on it. And I got to say, it's actually, you know, it depends on your algorithm. But the one you put this week up of solace with a picture of Carrie Lake covered by Vaseline made me laugh so hard. anyway. But the other thing is I've really been enjoying, I found a lot of moments of peace in music.

1:08:04And there was two pieces of my friends. It's so funny. I've been finding some respite or moments of peace in music. And my friends have been sending me, they of course listen to all the stuff. So they've been sending me all these different songs. Like, I love this one. And two really stuck out for me. And that is, I'm not a huge Pearl Jam Eddie Vedder fan, as in I'm not a fan, but he did a cover of the English beat song, Save It For Later. And it's so lovely. And we're going to play it now.

1:08:57We also, also, I stumbled across, I think on Threads, these three young men, they look as if they're in high school. They're probably in college. And I think it's called, they're called Penelope Road. And it's a cover of Ventura Highway, which I think is by the band America. Ventura Highway, that one, right? Yeah, it sounded exactly like that. I can't tell the difference. But it was so nice because it was highlighting these three lovely young men. And it was one of the wonderful things about, you know, going on the Internet is just I never would have found it had it not been served up to me. The algorithm said, figured out this guy could use a little Simon and Garfunkel like good cheer.

1:09:42Chewing on a piece of grass, walking down the road.

1:09:49Tell me how long you're gonna stay here, Joe Some people say this town don't look good But anyways, my win is the Eddie Vedder cover of Save It For Later and the cover of Ventura Highway, America's Ventura Highway, by these wonderful young men from a band called Penelope Road. Those are my wins, Cara. Those are lovely. I love that song, Ventura Highway. That's a beautiful version of it. It reminded me, my friend Lee Lotus and I used to go to Vegas in his Red Jetta. And then we'd get$40 from the Ready Teller and we'd head to Las Vegas and we'd listen to the English Beat album. Was it Save It For Later?

1:10:36Anyways, I forget the name of the album, but it just took me back to just such a fun time in college. It does. Songs have so much. I went on, I told you that podcast, Life in Seven Songs, I wish you'd go on it. It was so eye-opening to me what songs I picked and how they made me feel that way again. It's a great San Francisco Standard podcast that I loved, that I just loved being on. It was so much fun. Okay. So I think my win is Carrie Lake losing in Arizona. Couldn't. Oh, word, my sister. Worst politician. I think I don't like her more than Trump. I don't, I can't believe it. It's not because she's a woman.

1:11:13She's just such a hateful person. And in a, so was he, but just a different thing. I don't know. Look, people get mad at me for that, but I was, I found pleasure in that. I found pleasure in that for some reason, because she just, I want her to stop being so terrible. as a person. And I think Meghan McCain slapped her around, loser, keep losing, or something like that. Get onto the loser highway or whatever. Not a fan of Meghan McCain either, but she was vile about her dad. Anyway, that was a win for me. I know it sounds crazy. And the pair I'm going to say is, I just talked to you about this just earlier off the record, but I think I've noticed on threads particularly is a lot of people getting up again, which is what Sam talked about.

1:11:57And I understand Trump won in the right places, but just keep in mind, and I've said this to Scott, Biden's margin with Trump was 7 million votes, 4.5 percentage points. And Trump's margin with Harris was 2 million votes, 1.3 percentage points. And it's not the landslide. They won in all the right places and they did get the House in the center. I'm not sure they're going to. We'll see. Well, the House. Well, has that been called yet? In any case, they're probably going to get it. Just 250 votes. This is an interesting statistic. It's about 1.5 percent in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, the difference between 226 electoral counts and 270 for Harris.

1:12:36At the Senate level, Democrats won those states in ag group by about 10K votes, which means nominally 260K likely now remorsel ticket splitters and protest fights in the blue states put Trump in office. You cannot discount those. He doesn't have them in the bag. That's all I'm saying. So it was a much closer race. And so you should be taking all you Democratic politicians should take this stuff, both beat yourself up, but also learn from the data. I think it's a really complex and interesting result as we get more and more information. But the one thing that I think that Scott got right is the winner podcast, the loser knocking on doors.

1:13:15I think that was something that the Democrats absolutely fucking miss like crazy. So that would be, I guess, my my fail. I just pay attention, pay a lot more attention. It's a little everything's a little more complex than the hot takes you're going to make about this. And that's a good thing. And and we'll see where he goes with this. But I think probably they have the right idea. He wants to just girls just want to have fun. And so we'll see if that would be the best case scenario. The worst case is all of his terrible things he said on the trail that he does. In any case, I would recommend going to see Wicked as I recommended before.

1:13:53It's a wonderful, perfect movie for what's coming up. Also, Milana 2, which I will be going to, and Gladiator 2. But I think Wicked just captures the feeling right now. And I'll just end on this is there's a line I was giving a speech and this woman was really bereft about what had happened. And they're like, is Elon Musk, you know, he's smarter than me. He's going to do this. They were particularly triggered by Elon Musk because he's so terrible a personality to be out there in front of Trump. He's so crude and obnoxious and look at me and powerful and everything else. He does feel like a character in a Patrick Swayze movie where Patrick's going to take him down eventually.

1:14:34But one of the things, there's a line in Wicked that she sings. There's a line that's very famous from Defying Gravity, which is the big song for girls and everybody in the musical. And they go and she goes, I think the line is, no wizard that there is or was is ever going to bring me down. That's how you all should feel. He's not the wizard you think he is. And he represents a lot of things. So they're not going to bring you down. That's what I say to my fans out there. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

1:15:11We talked about so many good things today. I do enjoy talking to Scott Galloway. It's one of the highlights of my day. I appreciate that. Thank you for saying that. It's the highlights of my week. It's really interesting. As we struggle forward, we don't always agree, but we know how to disagree. That's our new motto in case you're interested. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Saverio, and Dan Shulon. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

1:15:42Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And this is Kara. Have a great rest of the week.