The U.S. Takes Charge of Venezuela... Now What?

22:52Yeah, yeah. We've established regular missionary sex happens on TV and both those shows feature a different flavor. Yeah, a lot of, yeah, you're right, you're right. Well, talk about the two of them together, because, you know, Hunting Watch is coming back for his second season. He's a rivalry. He has two more seasons. So here's the thing. I think it's you have a bunch of unknowns. And we're also watching in particular. I mean, there are three main guys, which are Connor Story, who plays Ilya, who speaks. If you watch Russian talk, which is TikTok with Russians, they lose they're losing their minds over his accent and his Russian when not just his accent speaking English, but his Russian.

23:30This is a Texan born and raised who started taking Russian lessons a week before filming. It's phenomenal. You're watching Connor's story become a star. And right before our eyes, star is born. We hope that fame doesn't corrupt him. Hudson Williams, who plays Shane Hollander, is an unknown that is just having an unbelievable moment. And then the most known, I loved him in Schitt's Creek, was Francois Arnaud, who plays Scott Hunter. And he is the one who had that pivotal, pivotal episode, which is episode five, which has zero sex. So I think they bring you in. It's sexy. It's sexy. Let me tell me, Brooke just brought up this idea of unknowns and lower costs and stuff like that.

24:13Talk a little bit about this from a like, because right now the costs of Hollywood are massive. And sometimes they pay off. Look, Avatar is killing it at the box office, especially abroad. But there's a lot of these something when I interviewed Ted Sarandos years ago, he was like, there's no there's only going to be the big ones and the little ones and the middle is gone. But that's why the beauty of this show is the same stroke of beauty of independent media. Right. Before independent media existed, when there was just giant pillars. Right. When there was three television networks, when there was three papers of note, when there was three movie studios, you had to work your way up and be part of this.

24:52giant conglomerate and marketing machine. And that's the only way that content could be distributed. Now, if you make something magical, it can find legs, it can find a home. And that's sort of the beauty of, right? We talk so much about the problems of social media and all the, you know, the bad actors and so on and so forth. But when you now have the system broken and these unknowns can create something on a small platform and then it gets distributed, to me, like, that's extraordinary. And that's something that couldn't have happened decades ago. Back when there were, you know, three studio heads with their arms folded running Hollywood.

25:32There were breakouts. There were breakouts. Yes. What she said, Kara. Go ahead, John. Kara, look, I want to say, remember when we had this conversation and we talked about, you know, some of the things you see on independent media and independent journalists and podcasts, you know it's it's done by a a skeleton crew what you would call for broadcast and you walk into a big broadcast studio office and you go what are all these people doing here and so stephanie is right this is where the media is going there will be big breakthroughs there's going to be the big guys and then i still consider myself a little guy there's going to be a little guy like me um but this is where it's going and i think it's actually fantastic because uh something that small can have uplift, as you say, and something that's big where it's overthought, like what Stephanie says with these guys and people sitting around going, it's got to go through this or whatever.

26:21That's not where we are anymore. We're not there anymore. People want it a little messy and authentic. I agree. I'm agreeing. I think we're in a transition period. And I think there's space for both. And I think that's what's awesome about it. What do you guys think? What I'm afraid, and so I'd love your thoughts, is that with the success and the popularity, I mean, it's become the cultural zeitgeist. You have Stephen Colbert talking about he was a bossy bottom. You had Jeff Goldblum asked last night on the red carpet at the awards show whether or not he's going to be in the cottage. You bring up a good point.

26:49This is going to change society, I believe, like Will and Grace did. But what happens if it changes the show where they're like, oh, now that we're so popular, instead of$3 million to$5 million, we're going to go to$20 million to$30 million? That, I feel, will change the heartbeat of the show. Well, it's only got a short... All these shows now have such a shorter life, right? But if the budgets go triple, right? These kids are now huge celebrities. Well, it happened with Glee. Or maybe the example that you're pointing to is, remember the first season of Nobody Wants This. Yeah, exactly. Nobody expected it.

27:21You loved every minute of it. It was like, what is this? It's touching me. It's connecting me. And then the second season. Was an ad. Which had so much hype. It was branding. Had so much branding and product placement. Ugh. I hated it. All the women like me who felt that show, who are connected to that show, then felt like you were being sold an Airbnb experience. And Dunkin' Donuts. It was awful. And I felt like they had this magic. And it's still, I'm not knocking the show, but they lost their magic of being this. We're just going to make this. Nobody wants this. Literally the title. Nobody wants this and we're just going to make it.

27:59And it connected with everybody. And then when season two came and they product placed the hell out of it, there was a lot more like, I'm a, you know. Which is the difficulty of having, you know, the long timeline, especially with the streamers, like thinking of Pluribus, another popular show. Oh, for God's sake. Listen, Pluribus, you know, just shut. No, no, no, no. I shall not. What did it win? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like five people. I love the show, but you cannot put it in the same breath as Heated Rivalry in terms of cultural cycles. You cannot. But it is. Can I jump in here?

28:33It is not. It is. Can I jump in here and tell you, I don't think it's going to change because Jacob Tierney, who you know, Brooke, he's a Canadian creator of this. They're adapting a book. They have to stay somewhat true to the book. A book written by a woman. And I've been watching him because I'm obsessed. My husband's like, you're obsessed with this. And so I think that Jacob Tierney knows that it cannot change. It's got to be authentic and it's got to stay grounded. But here's what, I just want to say this one thing. You know how Will and Grace changed the culture and made it okay for gay people to kiss on TV or just to have gay plot lines on television?

29:11I believe that this is doing the same thing to the culture because, as Brooke mentioned, straight guys are talking about it. Hockey podcast, podcasters are talking about it. People who do sports are talking about it. Yeah. The Empty Netters is a podcast with a bunch of white boys who are sports hockey fanatics. They're obsessed. Last thing you would expect. They are crying. It's the biggest green flag of men I've ever seen. I've never been affected. Can I say one thing? Go ahead. Can I tell you a story? Yes, go ahead. Please. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story. Brooke's going to get it. So I don't have a sports background whatsoever.

29:49When I was a senior in college, I went to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. And a boy took me to a dinner at then senior in college's house, Peyton Manning. It was a big dinner. At the time, I didn't even know who he was. He was about to win the Heisman right after Mardi Gras ended. I'm sitting at a long, long, long dinner table of all of these Ole Miss football players. I know nothing about Ole Miss. I know nothing about college football. But looking at a table of 45 boys, I say to the guy next to me, what is it like? What does the mix go with, you know, like gay players on the team and straight players on the team?

30:25Okay, this question came because I'm a girl who doesn't know sports, but I know math. And probability and statistics would tell you when dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of men are in a group, there's some gay ones in there. When I asked this question at this dinner at Peyton Manning's house in 19—Era's parents' house in 1997, my date practically threw me in the bayou, flipped the table. Were you escorted out, right? For real. For real. I mean, a guy hit the table, full of hands, like, what are you kidding me? I mean, like, it was, I was on the fast train back to Jersey. And here we are 30 years later.

31:01And nobody's saying, you play hockey, you're gay. It's probability and statistics. There's going to be some gay guys on the team. That's never an issue for women's sports. Who's straight here is what we say. But may it point something out, Brooke, erroneous as you think I am. Who among us has been invited to do a cameo on Heated Rivalry? Kara Swisher! Kara, where are you? Yeah. And are you doing it? Yes. You were a total mother pucker. I was, by the way, a puck bunny when I was in high school. I do all the cameos, my friend. I know. What's a puck bunny? Okay. It's, you know. Is that like a lacrosse to two?

31:40Is that like a groupie? Is that a groupie? It's a groupie of hockey players. Yeah, puck bunnies. No, you weren't. No, you weren't. Yeah, that was for the Rangers. I grew up in Rye. That's where the Rangers were. We were puck bunnies. And our parents were like, if you can get us Ranger tickets, have fun. Wow, fuck you. Kara! Brooke, can I ask you, do you like Ilya? And what's his name? What can I remember? Which love story do you like more? Do you like Ilya? Or do you like Scott? Well, I was a Scott Hunter, because that scene, but I don't love Scott's boyfriend. I'm just going to be honest. He's like a short king.

32:15He's great, but he's not my guy. But Ilya and Shane, I'm obsessed with. But Ilya, I mean, And Connor's story, there's this video of him that he did with Interview Magazine where he's wearing a, you know, a Gold's Gym t-shirt and he's lip syncing to Madonna's Like a Prayer. Yeah. I love all of that. And he, well, no, that's a different one. But this is the one where he does this. Yeah, he's, anyway, he's, it's very, I can't explain it, but this thing has gone so viral. They're showing it in nightclubs. DJs are interjecting the video. Sports bars. Sports bars. They're showing it. there's a very funny TikTok in newsletter this week that is these two women that are saying like dinner in a movie and their girlfriends eating Chinese food with their chopsticks on the floor watching this 30 second clip over and over again.

33:05I wonder if Tina Mels are going to make a comeback because of this, Brooke. They never left. We're stopping now. Let me just say, I wonder if Donald Trump is watching Heated Braff on it. You know that, I could just imagine the conversation that like they brought to him. You know Lindsey Graham is watching it. There's so many gays and MAGA and Republicans, of course they're watching it. Allegedly. Alright, let's go on a quick break and when we come back, I want to know what you all think about the biggest stories of 2026.

33:41Don, Stephanie, Brooke, we're back. Moving along, it's a new year. I want to know what each of you think will be the biggest stories of 2026. I want you spin it forward. Don, you'll start politics or whatever, whatever you think, but let's, politics would be great, but whatever you think is the biggest story going forward. Well, I think the biggest story going forward is going to be the fracturing of MAGA. It's already started. The MAGA media is starting with the Megyn Kellys and the Candace Owens and the Benny Johnsons of the world. Yeah, they're beefing. Yeah, they're beefing. And I think that that is, that is the beginning of the end of MAGA.

34:13That's what I believe the biggest story is going to be moving forward. Yeah. OK. All right. For me, you know, I'm going to pick the economy because at the end of the day, I think how people vote is truly rooted in their pocketbook and how they live. And what's interesting is the economy is growing, but its growth is fragile and it's really in the palm of Trump's hands. Like whether the economy builds or weakens depends entirely on Trump's deglobalization agenda, right? Tariffs, mass deportations. So I just think where we go in this K-shaped economy, right, where the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer, and that's only getting exaggerated this year, where we're headed is where I'm laser beam focused.

35:02Is it really growing or is it astroturf? That's why, because that K thing, I'm like, I don't, is that growth real? because people are a lot poorer and you need more people being able to buy things than fewer people being able to buy them. So I don't know if that fits. Yes, but he could be goosing it with Venezuela. There's ways to goose it, right? To goose the economy. The economy is certainly being goosed. We could have more federal intervention. We could have more farm aid bills of the like. But remember, when you're facing less and less regulation in your business, which is what we're facing right now, you're going to see businesses spend and grow.

35:39The thing that's standing in the way is tariffs. And Trump is right fat in the middle of it. But you're right. Is it just AstroTurf? Because Kara talks about this all the time. When you look under the Magnificent Seven, under those big, giant tech companies that aren't getting hurt, they're being helped by AI, that aren't getting hurt by mass deportations, when you look under there, lots of those companies are struggling. And if consumers don't have the money to spend or the money that they're spending doesn't go so far. It's only rich consumers, right? So that's my point is, it's a fragile economy, and the person who has his hands on the steering wheel is Donald Trump, and let's see what he does.

36:15So what do you imagine being the best case for him and the worst? I actually think the best case for him would be if the tariffs were to be ruled illegal. That would be his most graceful exit. He could say, I wanted to make America great. I wanted to bring manufacturing back, but they wouldn't let me. Companies would say, great, we're not having to face these tariffs. Happy days are here again. I don't think that's going to happen or it's going to be super messy. We'll soon find out, right? Trump is the first to say the market is the economy. It's not. The market has done very well. It could do even better.

36:51But under that, what is the world going to look like when kids coming out of college can't get jobs, when our health care costs are spiraling? One of the things is we were looking for pajamas yesterday for something. And one of the things that's noticeable is there's fewer items, harder to find, and more expensive. Even if you're, you know, it was kind of, it's noticeable in every store now. Was it online or in real life? No, it was offline. It was in all that. But what's noticeable, Cara, is... But I'm sure that's how most people should shop. But what's noticeable is the big have gotten bigger and the small are getting smaller.

37:23Small and business-sized businesses could not survive tariffs. If you're a giant company, you could front load your inventory. That's what I was thinking, yeah. If you're a small business in Georgetown and you're selling toys and books and pajamas, you can't weather storms like this. This was Target. I just want to say this. I think the best case scenario for him would be to completely fail with the economy because Donald Trump does not like to admit that he is wrong. And so if the economy goes off of a cliff, that will be the biggest wake up call. It's like it's like an addict. You can't they have to hit rock bottom before they make a change.

37:57And I think Donald Trump, the economy has to hit rock bottom for Donald Trump and Republicans to understand that he's fucking up the economy. But Cara, let me just make one final point. OK. And then we're talking about the economy for the United States of America. Donald Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful tech giants in the world. And while we think, oh, my gosh, look at those tech guys kissing his ass. No way. They have played him. A mat. AI is going to change every element of the way that we live. And we are now going into an AI universe where there is absolutely no regulation. The federal government is even stopping state regulations.

38:35So these this group of individuals, these 10, 15 guys are becoming more powerful and more successful than any people we've seen in our lifetimes. And that, to me, is the story to focus on. The power they have amassed. Like, the whole, like, let's eat the rich. Eat the rich is over here. The mega rich, that tiny sliver of universe of people, are so extraordinarily powerful and have so much control. I don't think they realize. Richer than beyond belief. Yes. Correct. Yes, absolutely. So, Brooke, what do you think the biggest cultural story of 2026? Whatever you want. God, there's so many. But the thing that I'm thinking about as we were talking about Hollywood and the business of Hollywood, which is, again, not my business, but as a voyeur and as a cultural sort of, you know, fan.

39:25By the way, my newsletter exists because of Stephanie and Kara, because of you guys. But I think it's the marketing of these movies. For example, I look at Timothee Chalamet's movie, Marty Supreme. This is he is very genius. It makes a lot of sense why he and Kylie Jenner of the Kardashian world are paired up. They have very similar mindsets of marketing, how to market. This movie was marketed in a way they have never seen before. If you watch TikTok or whatnot, people, a lot of people were very unsure about the movie. They saw it. They came out. They're like, I don't know if I loved it. I really don't know.

40:02But I went to it. I went to it because of the marketing. It was not done in a traditional rollout like the night shows. He was standing on top of the sphere. He did the sphere. He did blimps. He got he did a fashion drop and had all of these sports icons wearing Marty Supreme swag. It's really a whole thing. And when you're seeing like, you know, there's a YouTube show, Alan's World, that is now I think The New York Times just did a big story on it. Nine, like, I don't know, billions and billions and billions of views a month. And this is these are shorts. This is the stuff that, you know, your friends Meg Whitman and What's-His-Name want to kill themselves over because these shows are quick.

40:42Directionally correct. Directionally correct, just didn't have the right stuff, I guess. But the fact is, I think how, like, you're telling these stories, whether it's big budget or small budget, the marketing, the way people are connecting to audiences, they are looking at this now and saying, oh, it's not about screenings. It's not doing that well for the price. No, but Cara, imagine if the Leonardo DiCaprio movie that came out last year, One Battle After Another, this extraordinary film. I'm not saying it should have had the Timothee Chalamet Kardashian, their marketing plan. But had they employed something more renegade marketing in a different way, people now are like, what's that Leo movie?

41:28Where can I see it? And it was months ago. I think they missed, those are old school, and I'm not calling them old, but like old school Hollywood mega celebrities where they probably had to beg Leo to do any press at all because he's Leo. Now you're looking back saying if they would have employed some of these like renegade kind of tactics, it may have had a bigger impact. Stephanie is right. You've got to have either guerrilla marketing. It's got to be social media heavy. It's got to, it's not just, you can't rely on the old things. We'll put an ad here and we'll do it. Or a Vanity Fair cover.

42:02Yeah, it doesn't work. Traditional media doesn't work in this environment. Although sometimes it does. Of course, the Vanity Fair Susie Wiles piece blew up. I'm talking about movies. I'm talking about getting to the zeitgeist of culture. Listen, everybody was ripping all over Vanity Fair that they were like, what a miss, you know, during the whole Olivia Ryan thing, blah, blah, blah. We stopped talking about that as soon as they nailed their Susie Wiles cover. That's right. Those photos. Those photos. The photos were what was most— I refuse to insult those photos. I take issue with everybody— I don't either.

42:33I love them. I take huge issue with everyone going after Caroline Levitt and her lip injections. We can't, in one hand, complain about decency and complain about a president, you know, saying things that are rude or mean, and then go after Caroline Levitt for getting the same lip injections that everybody else in Hollywood does. I certainly don't look at it as criticizing her. I see it as the genius of the photographer telling a story. The genius of the photographer telling the story, you can put in category A. Correct. The category B. Making fun of her now. Making fun of what she looks like is exactly what we're saying is wrong about the president with his sophomoric insults of people.

43:13For me, it's more about them getting played. I mean, if they're the White House and she's a communications person, they should be smarter about their communications. As a communications person, I changed my profile picture on Twitter of the cesspool of when I used it to that picture because it's like she's a communications person. She should know exactly what was ahead of her. What was happening. That was actually fair. Going after a woman for Botox? Sister, please. Who hasn't had it? Oh, I think they all looked bad. I think the only person who actually was onto it was J.D. Vance. He's like, you're going to make us look bad, aren't you?

43:45Well, he did go to Yale University. I know. That's true. He's very fancy. But one of the things that was clear is I don't think they I think they made the outside look like the inside and the inside the outside look like the inside. That's my feeling. It's just the way they are. So let me ask you one last question. You talked about the movies. What caused you to go to a movie this hall? If you did, I went to see Song Song Blue, which I loved with especially Kate Hudson. I thought it was really quite a revelation in it. Is it what forced you into the theater? One very quick answer, because we've got to move on after that.

44:20Brooke? I didn't go to the movies. This is the first holiday season I didn't. First of all, it's pouring rain in L.A., but I just rewatched Heated Rivalry. And that Palm Beach reality show that Netflix has dropped, which is insane, called Members Only, which is like the Mar-a-Lago Real Housewives. It is astonishingly bad. Lots of lip injections. Okay, lots of lip injections. Stephanie, what about you? Did you attend anything? Did anything force you? I did not go to the movies, but I'm a bad—I didn't go to the movies, even when people love going to the movies. I either like to leave the house dressed with high heels and uncomfortable underwear or I like to stay home.

44:53But like the movies to me where it's like a little bit stinky in there and I'm not that comfortable in the chairs, that's a hard no. Don, anything? Same thing. I like to leave the house with high heels and uncomfortable underwear. But... Yeah.

45:07I didn't. Or none at all, Don. I haven't made an effort to go to the movies in years because I'm just, I'm like Stephanie. I'm just not that interested. Now I go to movie premieres. People invite me to go to movie premieres. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yes. You know why, Don? Because you got to put high heels and uncomfortable underwear on. If you're going to leave the house, you want to go out. And get your picture taken on a red carpet, right? See, this is why all the noise about Netflix talking about things, I think they're making the correct argument, which is people can go if they want, But it's not the it's not the holy grail anymore.

45:44All right. One more quick break. We'll be back with one more question for each of you.

45:56everyone we're back okay i have uh one last question for you and i'm acquiring a prediction first up stephanie we talked we ended 2025 with a lot of market talk about an ai bubble and whether it would burst if that's what you want to talk about what what what do you what do you think your prediction would be around AI? I don't have a prediction of whether it's going to burst, but all eyes are on AI and certainly mine. The question is, like, is it truly the future and is it going to convert every element of how we're living? There are certainly companies that have added AI to their prospectus who are going to go bust, right?

46:36Like, there are elements of the dot-com bust. I remember I worked in banking at the time, and if there was a dot-com next to the end of your company's name, people were scrambling to attend your IPO party. There are companies that this isn't going to work out for. However, the masters of the universe in the AI space and the companies that are smartly and effectively adopting AI are going to be the companies that soar into the future. How that's going to transform our workforce, I don't yet know. So I don't have a prediction of where AI is going, but it's certainly our future. Any other predictions you want to just throw out there?

47:15I would just say my prediction is while people say that, like, the president's spiraling or this and that, I don't think he is. I think Donald Trump is happier than ever. I think he's certainly wealthier than ever. And he's finally surrounded by the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years. And now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't be. I think Melania is holding his hand again. I mean, look at it. Well, I I very much worry about the future of our democracy. I worry about the health of our economy. I worry about the health and safety of our country and peace in the United States.

47:48That particular president, while people say he's a lame duck and he is a lame duck. If you think he's sad or frustrated or unhappy, he's not. He was in Trump 1.0 sitting in his bed in the White House with his whole team saying, no, sir, you can't. Now he is surrounded by, yes, may I have another? And can I give you an airplane and some gold bars? He likey. He likey. OK, next up, Don. We'll talk about that. Will President Trump make it through the year? Careful. The answer. I made a prediction. I'm with the Peruvian shamans on this one. But what what what is your thoughts of what's coming up in politics or anywhere and also anything else you want?

48:25I'm more in line with you. I'm not so sure that he's going to, I'm not like Stephanie. I'm not sure he's going to make it till the end of the year because I think his health is bad. I think they're not letting on just how sick he is or his real health condition. and I think that he is, well, you think he's happy. I think he's scared. I think he's afraid of the Epstein files and what could come. And a lot of this, including Venezuela, has to do with distraction from the Epstein files. And I believe that's why the rollout has been so chaotic because they are trying to throw people off the trail.

48:57They don't want a roadmap. However, I do believe, as I said earlier, that this is the beginning of the end for the MAGA movement as we know it. And I think that Hakeem Jeffries could actually end up becoming the majority leader before 2026, I think they're going to lose. Republicans are going to lose 2026. For the end of 2026. Before the end of 2026. I think there are going to be a lot of Marjorie Taylor Greene defectors are enough that it could change the balance of the Congress. That's what I believe. Balance of the Congress. Okay, anything else? But doesn't that depend on where Democrats fall?

49:29It does. If Democrats scoop up that more center space, they're there to take those votes. But if they don't, than Camp Maga Holt? I think if they scoop up that center space, I think that would be a mistake because the movement in the party, remember the people who elected Donald Trump were the people who were motivated to go to the polls. And those were kind of the extremes, whether you like that or not. I think the energy in the Democratic Party right now is on the progressive side. It's not in the center. The center is over for that. People want someone with balls. They want Jasmine Crockett.

50:02They want AOC. And I know people don't believe that, But when I'm out there talking to the people, that's who they want. They want Mamdani. They love him. They love Bernie. And I don't hear so much about - Yeah, you don't think Chris Murphy has balls? I think he does. But Chris Murphy does not. He does not have the riz that all of those other folks have. He doesn't get nearly the play. I mean, I don't want to be insulting. That's kind of a cable news thing. If you're out there talking to the folks, they love Jasmine, AOC, Bernie, and the like. They're not talking that much about Chris Murphy. They probably don't even know Chris Murphy's name.

50:40So in that vein, let me do a follow-up. If Tim Walz is abandoning his re-election campaign for governor, it looks like it might be Amy Klobuchar, who is running, and she would be the first woman governor of Minnesota. What is your prediction for then a presidential candidate? What does that look like? Is that what people will be talking after November or before November for 2020? Well, I think the easy one is that it's going to be Gavin Newsom. Whether he can win or not, that's a whole other story. But I think it's going to be Gavin Newsom. I do think that I think someone like an AOC might run.

51:11If she's too polarizing, I don't know about that. But I think a strong ticket, I believe, would be Gavin and Marilyn. Wes Moore would be Wes Moore and Gavin Newsom. That would be a really, really strong ticket. I just I hear everything Don is saying, and I think that Jasmine Crockett is amazing and AOC are amazing and they're exciting, exciting women. But I also think there are parts of this country that aren't necessarily looking for excitement. Look at this last election. Mom Donnie had an extraordinary win in New York and you saw Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger win in New Jersey and Virginia.

51:49And I think if you took those three people and put them in, I think Mikey couldn't have won in New York and he couldn't have won in New Jersey. So I think that the key for Democrats is to truly figure out for once, how do you become an actual big tent party? And I don't know the answer. Can I ask you a question? Say, what does Mama Rule want to do? Where is she? Oh, where is Mama Rule? Louise, trust me. My mom likes Marco, just so you know. Oh, my mom. My mom certainly likes Marco Rubio. She's very disappointed in what Donald is doing. But Louise Rule, at the end of the day, cares about the price of London Royal.

52:24She cares about gas prices. She's not focused on Maduro. And so she would love there's nothing Louise Rule would love more than a George Bush Mitt Romney renaissance. And sorry, Louise, that Falcon Crest and Dynasty, your other favorites, are coming back. Stephanie, in a way, though, I think we're saying the same thing. I don't disagree with you about the big tent, but they have to figure that out. And every candidate, Momdani doesn't work in Iowa. You know what I mean? it's not going to work there. But I'm saying the energy, like the loudest voices, the people who are more motivated, I believe, to go to the polls.

52:58But, you know, look, there's a quiet, there's probably a quiet middle out there. I don't disagree with you on that. But I just think that that's, you know, that's the folks that people are interested in. I guess, but I'm just saying, Don, I just don't know that like maybe, I'm not saying the country's getting sick of what's, like just because something is going viral, maybe going viral is what's making us sick. And I'm not saying that's not the answer, but I'm just saying we got to find a way to be constructive. Yeah, but I think it's constructive when I say that the energy is on the progressive side.

53:26The progressives want universal health care. That's not I don't believe that that's conservative or liberal. I think that's a right that every American should have. The progressive side wants a living wage for everyone. And look, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independent. But yes, they do. But they're not as motivated about it. And it was an idea that came from the progressive side. Look at where affordability came from. And now the Republicans are using it. I think the point Don is making is the Democratic Party is changing. And there are also conservative versions of this in the Democratic Party or more great Cesar.

54:01There's all kinds of people, even just there's a lot more congressional people. I'm going to finish with Brooke. We're recording a day after the Critics' Choice Awards, speaking of picking and choosing, which kicks off awards season. do they even matter these awards? Do the award shows themselves matter? Yeah I mean there's obviously the Golden Globes is coming up Yeah it's an interesting question I think yes and no and very different for different reasons I mean you just had the news that the Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple years that's a big big deal I don't think it used to be like we all would gather and watch like the Oscars and we'd have an Oscar party I didn't know that People would do things like that That doesn't matter You were never invited Don?

54:42I think what matters is the clips, right? So we're watching like the Jeff Goldblum interview yesterday about heated rivalry when he was asked about the cottage has gone viral. The TikTokers and Instagrammers who are posting about fashion. And then you're hearing about movies like from the winds people care about. They're like, oh, what is this one battle after another? So it's not the shows themselves. It is the viral moments. You had Timothee Chalamet profess his love for Kylie. These things are, which then goes into Marty Supreme. So that is the stuff that is relevant. But nobody's sitting there, like the majority of people aren't sitting there and watching, you know, people's speeches and all of the sort of different nominees.

55:22They care about the fashion. They care about the viral moments. And they care about those sort of things that come after. Yeah, they're easy to do. But Cara, the Olympics are in a few weeks. And I do think, just like last Summer Olympics, look at, for example, college football, professional football. Oh, totally. Viewership is off the charts. Totally. And so I do think that there is a thirst. People do want to come together and watch things that are joyful, that are exciting. And so while they might not be sitting down and saying, I'm going to watch the Oscars, things like the Olympics coming up.

55:53Correct. Even though the winter Olympics. The sports, that's an exemption. Or live music. I mean, we are all coming together for that. It's just these awards specifically that used to be these sort of like cultural moments. Yeah. So, Brooke, what what what is your you're always way ahead of trends. What's the trend we are not paying attention to and one that should be trashed? I. Oh, well, the thing I mean, I think we are starting to pay attention to. But this content like YouTube, when you're talking about billions of views a month compared to like anything else and what you're seeing, how much money you're being.

56:24And that is we have to see like the demographic for that are seven to 14 year old girls. It's your demon hunters. It's that that is the market. Right. Forget about Gen Z. We're looking at alpha and whatnot. So I think that is where you're going to start seeing a lot of stuff being created and animation and all of that. Music, music, music. And I think the music aspect, whether it's live, whether it's incorporated into TV shows, movies, that's what we are really leaning into. I would love to put the Erica Kirk memes to bed, like the Erica Kirk morning tour. Like she's still blowing up. I don't want to see her anymore.

57:03But she's still blowing up. She's still blowing up. People can't get making fun of her. Hold on. Is blowing up a good or a bad thing? No, no, making fun of her. They're calling it the morning tour. There's a whole meme going on. Like I mourned Subway's$5, like the loss of$5 foot long, longer than she mourned the death of her husband. And these just keep going. and it is in poor taste. And they have, remember like the guy who did the dance, the Korean singer who like gets shot up through the stage. Gangnam Style. Gangnam Style. That's like, they're comparing her to that where she's coming out on stage.

57:36And then the whole story of her and J.U. dance. But you'd like it to go away. I just, but don't you think, like you've got Turning Point USA raking in the money and their devotees. It's a grift. And then you have people who are, it's a grift. And then you have people who are crushing her 24-7. But don't you think there's any, Maybe I'm naive. I think there's an exhaustion of mean where people are like, can we move on from that and just live my life forward? Well, it will go away, but this one has had, Brooke, a longer shelf life than most. And by the way, I am surprised the Oscars are going to YouTube.

58:10I did not know that. You learn something new every day. 2029. 2029. Yeah. Wow. It'll probably be better. So, Brooke, what is something we don't know that's cresting slowly up? out in the ocean. It's a tiny little ripple. I think we're going to start, I think heated rivalry, what we're seeing, is going to cause a whole new sort of moment for people to come forward and be emboldened, whether it's sex, whether it's the things that we used to not be able to talk about. You had that with Hunting Wise. You're seeing that, and that's coming in content that people are creating. Is there a heated, I don't know, so tell me, Brooke.

58:49Is there a heated rivalry, conservative push, back against it? I'm sure there is, but it is not getting any traction. No, I can talk about that. I've seen conservative, the log cabin Republican type believe that it is conservative coded because they are closeted. They're not open about it. They are, you know, they're not pushing it and putting in everybody's face except for that big giant kiss. I don't want to, you know, ruin, be a spoiler but uh there could the conservative gays believe that it is gay uh conservative coded yeah but but but i don't mean conservative gays if we're talking about like the the woke pendulum swinging right so if we're talking about like here we were four years ago and now we're you know you got andrew tate coming over politicians houses for dinner where does heated rivalry like does that does that family does that faux family values movement are they mad about it well this I don't think this is a woke thing.

59:48This is kind of a middle, this is kind of a normie kind of, you know, show that has hit the zeitgeist in a way that's not woke. And I do think that it's going to have some penetration in middle America, like, you know, Will and Grace. People may not like it initially, but then it just kind of grows on you. You're used to seeing it on your television. But it is the antithesis of the Andrew Tates, and that's what's so fascinating to me. That's my point. There are people that are saying it's a psyops, it's a whole thing that was done to distract us from what's going on with Trump. So there is a growing group of people that believe this is all a conspiracy.

1:00:24You know what I think? Look over there. Look at gay sex over there. I like, Cara, you're paying attention to where the pendulum has gone, where it's going. I think everybody, I thought, to me, one of the great moments of 2025, and it paid a lot of attention, was when Golden performed at, when the people from K-pop Demon Hunters performed at Macy's Parade, everybody loved it. It was run by, I think, a gay guy. You know, the whole thing was very woke in a very lovely way, in a way that wasn't the in-your-face woke. It was, it's a very subtle, woke has learned how to be woke now that everybody loves.

1:01:01The evolution. The evolution of woke, it's like, I think he did Rival is woke. I think hunting wives is real woke, but it's a whole different sly. But they're all MAGA in hunting waves. They're doing coke and that. That's a genius. That's a joke. But that's the genius and the joke of hunting wives. That's right. That's right. And exactly. Like guns, MAGA, lesbians. It's like they're fucking. Cocaine. Woke has learned the way a lot of Congress people. Sarah McBride is a good example. Very slyly, lovely person. she's you know imperfect allies it's a different and so Golden if you listen to that song it is completely about being gay it's about being like who you are but everybody wants like I have the most gender coded son in Solomon he's such a dude he's always showing his butt he's like I have a penis everything he's so man but that doesn't mean he's toxic that's correct he's just a dude he's a dude but I have to say I said do you like the Saja boys on K-pop.

1:02:05They love K-pop, by the way. That is a trend, too. He goes, oh, no, I like the girls. Like there was he likes all the boys like the girls. And that didn't happen with my other sons immediately rejected the girls. Now the girls are. And to me, they are so that when I saw people respond to Golden, I was like, they have no idea what they're listening to here. And it's I think there's a new version of woke that is going to infect the whole country of kindness. But don't you think that version has woke? But that's it. That version of woke, those young males who briefly got swayed into the Trump-averse and then said, hold on a second.

1:02:43Yeah, you're seeing Rogan. I'm not against this group. I'm against that. They were just tired, right? The profile of my oldest son is a dude. He's not a toxic male. And so when he had this finger waved in his face and yelled at, you saw those boys sway. And then moments after the election, they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And like, I'm not going there. So I'm doing it. There's a lot of people. Theo Vaughn is doing it. I haven't seen Hunting Wives, but I'm like, just in my personal life, I would not be surprised to see conservatives or MAGA people doing cocaine or lesbians or shooting because those are the people who are doing it.

1:03:23In my life as a gay man, my woke gay friends are the most boring with kids people I know and not out doing sexting, you know, sexing it up. But the conservatives I know, some of them who are closeted, they're the ones who are out partying every night, who are doing the drugs, who are having the sex. Yes, that's always the case, right? And so that would not be a shock to me. So I think it's just letting people know what's happening. But wasn't that the genius of hunting wives, right? When you were like, oh, my gosh, this is a full MAGA bonanza. Then the next episode, you know, the ones doing the people police.

1:04:00Exactly. That was dynasty. Like, by the way, when I was a young gay person in Washington, D.C., I would say say someone rhymes with Ginzi damn was in the big gay bars. I saw them there. So I just like this was this was. But I do think that the thing, the trend that we're seeing, like you say, the Theo Vons, the Joe Rogans, people are realizing it's not just there. I don't think it's because they have become morally awake like Marjorie Taylor Greene. I don't think I think they see that there's more money to be made in the middle. There's more money to go in and say, actually, this is people alone.

1:04:31Yeah. Yeah. I do think that there is a this is not what I voted for aspect to it. I believe them when they say that, even though it is what they voted for. Maybe they didn't think that they would be rounding people up off of the streets like they they're doing. Wait, can I just give the prediction? I really do think my prediction and it touches this. I think this year, honestly, love and kindness will reign supreme. People are so exalted. And I hear you, Don, and the grift. No, I agree with you. I agree, too. So many people. I totally agree. Even look, I have every incentive to not want to believe Marjorie Taylor Greene.

1:05:04And when I watched her on The View, just talking like a reasonable broad, I'm like, God, I feel you. And I don't know if I feel her beyond that episode. She's not watching Heated Rivalry. No, she's not. But I do think this is the year people wake up and realize, let's give one another a break. Life's much easier when you love. Your actions have to match your words. So I'll give it time. I don't necessarily believe it right now. Yeah. All right. Let me ask the final question, though, because the story of the beginning of 2025 was Elon Musk at the beginning, right? Who? Of him taking up Doge, remember?

1:05:33Space Karen? Space Karen. What does what does I want to know because he was the story of 20. We've forgotten since it seems so long ago, but there was a whole cycle of him on top and then on bottom. Now he's back with Trump. He's back with Trump. They just had dinner. They posted a video, a picture of him in Milania. What is his future for this is a tech show? What is he was the most prominent tech figure in 2025? What happens to him in 2026? I want first Stephanie and then Don and then Brooke from a culture point of view. Stephanie? Listen, Doge didn't work in every way, but guess what? He is more powerful than ever.

1:06:08When you look at SpaceX, when you look at the amount of contracts, possible IPO coming, when you look at how NASA has done less and so much more is being contracted to Elon Musk or what Palantir is doing, I'm not saying Elon Musk learned his lesson, but Elon Musk is in a far better position personally and professionally today on par to be richer than anyone could have ever fathomed without getting 24-7 public scrutiny of the grand failure that was Doge, right? Like we all said, like Doge is going to, he's going to try to employ Doge. He will get in his rocket ship and leave, which essentially he's done, and leave wreckage behind, which is what happened to so many of our agencies and just within our federal government.

1:06:53So Elon Musk has left Doge and that's failure behind, and he keeps on trucking. I don't even think he thinks about Doge. He takes those headlines and puts them in a birdcage for liner. Yeah. All right. Next, Don. You worked for him. How's that case going? I am not talking about that. We're interested. Tell us. What I will say, you can say a lot of things about Elon Musk, but I don't think he's a dummy, Right. I think he's a smart man. I believe that in this whole political thing that he's learned the limits of his power and by learning the limits of his power, he's learned where his power actually is.

1:07:29And I think it's being quieter behind the scenes, making better and more innovative cars. And if he just and rockets or whatever it is. And if he sticks to that, he could have more influence than running some, you know, department of government efficiency, which never really worked, which actually did not save any money. so um and tarnished him badly and and turn and he realized that um if you're going to be in the business where you're selling a product and you're and you're someone who is as high profile as him and is the face of the company uh then you have to have a good reputation you have to do good for people rather than taking jobs you can't take people's jobs and say and take their money and their livelihood and they have a you know a smaller wallet and say now buy my car it doesn't really work that way yeah so he's learned his lesson brooke finish up culturally yeah i think and I think Don's absolutely right.

1:08:17I don't know if he's learned his lesson in the sense that he wants to do good, but the celebrity aspect of where he wanted, he was hosting SNL. He was in every single place. He was on television almost as much as Trump. He was speaking and jumping up and down. The cult of celebrity, he realized, is not where his power is. And so he's taken a giant step back from that and is much more subtle and much more sort of, you know, whether somebody's guiding him, which it really seems it might be. He's got somebody in his ear. Or he just came upon that himself, where the destruction. And maybe he's gone to rehab and the ketamine use is down.

1:08:55Okay, Cara, that's the perfect segue to credit Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway has been saying for years and years, he sells the stock, he stops trusting the company when the CEO is on the cover of Vogue. When they're in a fashion photo shoot and they're surrounded by puppies, that's when you sell the stock. That's when you stop believing in the company. Elon Musk had his celebrity phase, then his celebrity, you know, political kingmaker. And now he's, whether I'm saying realized or not, he's saying, yeah. And he's saying, guess what? I'm much better off as the Wizard of Oz. And that's what he is, the man behind the curtain.

1:09:30That's right. But he did expose himself. He did expose himself. He did. He did. He showed his ass. Yeah. How can we miss if he won't go away to Mars? Anyway, thank you so much, all of you. Let me just read this out. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind and what you think of these fine co-hosts. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. You guys actually were fantastic and fantastic together. And you outclassed Scott Galloway, I have to say, for our first show of the year.

1:10:01And I truly appreciate it. And so does Scott from wherever he is, whatever he is doing. Again, please write in what you think he is doing. You're probably right. In 2026, my personal hope is to have a shred of the confidence that Kara Swisher does. Shred. And the cameos. I love myself. Yeah, heated rivalry. We're all going with you, baby. We're going. Okay, all right. You're all coming on the set and making a nuisance of yourself. Now, be sure to check out the Don Lemon show. It's amazing. It got to a million YouTube subscribers. It's amazing. The 11th Hour with Stephanie Rule. It is the best.

1:10:36I watch it every night, and I send pictures to Stephanie. I have to say it's the best hour of cable television. I learn a lot. And, of course, Pop Culture Mondays, Brooke, is always way ahead of the curve on lots and lots. She was always like, I wrote about that months ago. Anyway, thank you for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday, hopefully with Scott Galloway. We'll see. I will read us out. I'm going to the cottage. You're going to the cottage. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andradat engineered this episode.

1:11:11Jim Mackle edited the video. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Happy New Year. And you guys, definitely another pod soon. Thank you so much. You