The “Woke” Smithsonian, South Park’s Latest Dig at Trump, and Co-Host Wesley Morris

26:42There is not a number high enough to do it. But I think he just was told what to do there. And I hate to say it, he had Ivanka there. You mean on February 21st, February 17th, 2020? He had people who were like, yes, slavery was bad. Let's stick with slavery was bad on this one. Terrible, the worst thing ever. And, you know, the original sin, whatever. There's no, there's several original sins. Well, he wants them all gone. All gone. So what do you think about these attempts? And do you think they're, you know, he just will not give up on this woke thing, which is nuts. And there was a bunch of interviews in front of the museum and they showed people what he said.

27:23Like all kinds of people, not just like what you'd imagine be angry about it. But they were like, what? What? What? Like talk about this and what they're trying to do here from a cultural point of view. They're trying to purify. They're trying to create some idea of a thing that, you know, has been being attempted for 400 years. Right. It's true. It's not a new thing. A racially purified. Well, it's just never been achieved. Right. There's never been. There's I mean, not even Woodrow Wilson has gone as far as Trump is trying to go. And Wilson was, you know, all but a KKK member. I think that this is propaganda at its, I mean, most blatant, right?

28:13This is the beginning of something, right? I mean, if you look at the prongs that are laid out on this table, essentially, holding it up. You've got the National Guard down the street, probably around the museums right now, right? Because, you know, those black people act up a lot. Like, that's where they would put the National Guard like idiots, like where no crime is taking place. But we'll get into that. Right. But where, like, in a city where, you know, if you ask the average D.C. resident, like, could things be a little better from the standpoint of public safety? They would say yes. Of course.

28:52But do I think the solution to that is the National Guard? No. It's housing. You know? It's get let people go to sleep. I mean, this is my number one thing about like like what we call crime and mental health situations. I think a lot of this stuff is just I think I think stress and not having a place to actually reset your brain every night contributes to what we don't. we probably wouldn't even qualify certain aspects of urban crime as mental illness because we've been culturally conditioned to think of it as gang warfare. As bad people. And the people suck. But no, it's the systemic conditions that have led people to behave this way.

29:40Now, I'm not trying—whatever. This is a whole other aspect of this conversation. Including C slavery. Right, right. But I think that the point here is that something is being gotten underway, essentially, right? And I think purifying the story of American history is part of it. I think creating an environment in which they can use Washington, D.C. as a test case for how this might go once you start rolling it out in Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia. I mean, he's describing cities as blood-soaked and cesspools. No, they're not. I have raised children in D.C. and San Francisco and everything. But, you know, Kara, I'm actually curious about this because I think it only takes one upset white woman to have an experience that she didn't like and for that to reach somebody on the staff of this administration or to reach him, right?

30:39Well, in this case, it was Big Balls, right? Big Balls got beat up on 14th Street, which is not as, you know, it's crazy on Saturday night. It is. I lived over there, and I lived a block away. And it's a city. Like, I don't know what to say. It's a city. Like, all cities have their issues, and you don't want to minimize crime, but the idea of maximizing it and creating it, it's almost pornographic in the way they're maximizing it. Like, bloodbath, ongoing this. It's, like, just not true. Yeah, it's it does not correspond with the reality that most people are living. But I will say that, I mean, I can't speak to its effectiveness.

31:17I think what you're telling me about when people are like man on the street in responses to the news that he wants to like remove slavery from a museum that, you know, is telling the story from slavery to like the glorious things that African-Americans have contributed to this country. and how you can't, if you, you know, you remove slavery and we're not America anymore. Right. Like, who are we? They will be removing the glorious things, just so you know. It's not just, it's not just slavery was bad, but white people did the most things. I mean, I think that's what's really, what's happening here.

31:49I mean, although talk a little bit about the Kennedy Center Honors, because it goes there, too, speaking of cultural impacts. It includes Kiss, Sylvester Stallone, and Gloria Gaynor. The country music star, they picked. George Strait. Good country music star. I'm sorry. No, I mean... Also Stallone. I'm not against Stallone. Even though I think he's kind of heinous in many ways, I think he's culturally relevant in some fashion. Talk a little bit about these honors. What do they say? Well, it's funny. I'm going to do an episode about these five people and this particular situation. Pacific Kiss, Sylvester Stallone, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait.

32:26Michael Crawford. Crawford. Again, important Broadway star. No question. He's not getting, like, under ordinary circumstances, is Michael Cross. Like, can I give you a list of people who have not been Kennedy-centered? Yes, I know. Yes, I get it. You start with, has Andrew McDonald gotten one yet? I don't know. No, she is not. No. Has Madonna? I mean, you know, I mean, I just, there's so many people. The list is wrong. The Democrats aren't giving it to Madonna either, but go ahead. I mean, but somebody on the board at some point would just be like, listen, I think it's kind of cool that Madonna hasn't gotten it because it's kind of it's sort of a badge of honor.

33:02But the idea that Julia Roberts is inducting George Clooney X number of years ago and she hasn't been Kennedy Center, you know, I mean, Glenn Close. I mean, there's just like a long list of people who have not been who've not gotten it. But here we are. Right. But I actually think that, you know, Sylvester Stallone and George Strait, those are no brainers to me. Yeah, that's like that's easy. That's that's not hard. Gloria Gaynor. I don't know what that is. That, I mean, listen, there's a part of me, there's a part of me that's like, I don't know, there's still a little DEI left in this administration.

33:38They needed to find a person of color who would say yes. Who could they get? But even they still feel a kind of pressure to acknowledge that even though they're letting all these Afrikaners in the country under victimization statutes of some kind. We got to find one. We got to find one. Are you going to go? I used to cover the Kennedy Center Honors for the Washington Post, just so you know, when I was a young group. Speaking of my time, that was my job, one of the jobs in the style section. I have to say it was a ball because it was amazing. It's fun. I've been. Trump's hosting, which could be hysterical enough.

34:13I mean, he's hosting for now. I don't know how that's going to go. Can you imagine? Who are they going to get? Tara. Who are they going to get? Who are they going to get? Wait, stop. For one second. What? I'm sorry. This man is going to have to go to rehearsals. I know. I know. But he loves that. He doesn't want to rehearse. He's just going to extemporaneously talk about how slavery wasn't that bad. I mean, and broadcast it live on CBS, which is also what they want to do. Yeah. I mean, typically for anybody who doesn't know, I mean, this is a ceremony that happens a month before anybody in the public gets to see it.

34:45That's right. They have a month to like make a television show out of this live event. Right. Right. That's right. You can't broadcast. I mean, you could broadcast it live if everybody's on their P's and Q's. It will be broadcast live. Stop it. You know, I mean, today's, whatever CBS does in their behaviors, it doesn't matter. Are you going to go? You need to go. Oh, my God. I need you to go. Are you assigning me? I'm assigning you to go and do a show about it. You need to go. I am going to do an episode about the nominees and, like, the rightness and wrongness of having the president choose them.

35:17But I guess, I don't know, I could try. That's like, I'm going to think about that because you're right. Maybe it would be worth doing. But he's trying to culturally take over this old, old agent. He's going to rename it after him. He's going to rename the center after him. He's already on his way to naming the opera house after Melania. The Trump center. No, that's not going to work. I've been listening to you talk about this man for years. You were one of the smartest people on this person. I think that you understand what, I think you understand him. You're one of the people who understands him.

35:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's because my mother is Trump. But go ahead. I know. I mean, I think that that I think the people who have the biggest insights into him understand him as a family member. Right. Yeah, for sure. But I also feel like, you know, it's funny because I feel lucky because I felt like, you know, you know, in my house, it was pictures of John Kennedy, John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King. That was who that was my grandmother and her sisters had around the house. My mother liked Jackie's outfits. But I think that there is I just am curious about, you know, he he's like a stopped clock in some ways so that when he says like things that the candidate like there aren't good shows at the Kennedy Center, it's not true.

36:36But they would I mean, some of the things didn't work. Right. Not everything was great that that went on there. I mean, in terms of like the quality of the thing, not morally bad. There had been. There had been. Years ago, I saw when Audra McDonald, her first show, Masterclass, was in Caldwell. Oh, you saw the original Masterclass. I saw it six times. She was amazing. And I saw Spalding Gray there doing his show. It was amazing. One of his shows. And so there used to be a lot more interesting things there. And then it just became like... But the fact of the matter is, the point is, like, the, like, great people who made that place an exciting place to go do anything...

37:16I've gone like Ben Folds split one of my favorite like performers blend Ben Folds. I love him. He's out. Renee Fleming hit the road. And now he's taken over the board. I don't I don't know. I truly David Rubenstein. Well, you know, the telling thing about this whole Kennedy Center thing is I don't know if you caught this, but when he gave that press conference talking about like how bad it was and talking about how he was going to take over like he was going to host the show. So he said, I want one of these. I wanted one of these. He wanted an honor. He does. He wants everything. He wants a Nobel Prize.

37:54I waited and waited and waited. And I said, the hell with it. I'll become chairman. I'll give myself an honor. Maybe next year we'll honor Trump. Yep. That's what he said. We probably will have to. Although I would enjoy that. What the fuck? I say yes. Because I just want to see the whole horrible thing. All right. We have to go on a quick break. We'll come back. The White House joins TikTok.

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39:40And you can take him anywhere. Why'd you invite? And we are out of time. Are you really cutting me off? Uncrustables are the best part of the sandwich. Sorry, Crust.

39:55Wesley, we're back. TikTok just got a new user, the White House. The Trump administration launched an official account this week, despite the fact that a federal law requires TikTok to be sold or banned. Though Trump keeps extending the deadline illegally, by the way. The new White House account posted several videos, including one in which Trump says, I am your voice. Posts were quickly flooded with spam and negative comments, many referencing the Epstein files. Trump is reportedly still working on a deal for U.S. investors to buy TikTok from its parent company, ByteDance. Probably Larry Ellison will be involved in that.

40:25The latest deadline for the ban expires in mid-September. Talk about him using TikTok. And years ago, just so people don't know, he called TikTok a national security threat in 2020 and tried to ban it back then. Then he shifted when one of his biggest donors, he realized was one of the biggest investors in it, Jeff Yass. So any thoughts on them doing this? You know, I got to be honest. Well, first of all, I would have just assumed that the White House had already had a TikTok account before this guy got back into office. Not that Biden would have been all over it or anything, but there would have been some like, there would have been some like young person in the Biden administration who's like, hey, Uncle Joe.

41:08Yeah, yeah. They had a pretty good social media group there. Yeah, I mean. I actually thought they did. So I'm surprised by that. But I also, I mean, I, this as a story, I know that I'm supposed to be disturbed and upset by the idea of simultaneously the national security threat being addressed. Like, you know, legitimately, you got to find somebody else to do this. Can't let the Chinese government involved in, you know, our private business. I think the ship has sailed. I don't know about you. If you were on it, they got it. I think it's a wrap. It's how many, like every American, like are there new TikTok users besides the White House?

41:46Yeah, no, I agree. TikToks, that's what I always thought would happen. They got everything. They don't need anything else. I just think like most of these media things, they'll go up and down and TikTok's not on the ascension necessarily. I don't know what the new thing will be. Probably YouTube in many ways. How do you, YouTube knew how? Like in terms of growth? I mean, people, growth. Yeah, when you look at the growth, I think they've been, they're fine. They're sort of baked in. Threads is actually growing bigger than X right now, which is really interesting. They're reaching the same daily users.

42:18I think Blue Sky is doing fine. Well, I think what's happened is everything's gotten dissipated in terms of social media. And then certain things break through. So there's just more, there are more options. Right. Yeah. Depending on what, or people not using it as much. My kids use Reddit. That's it. YouTube and Reddit. Interesting. That's the whole thing. Interesting. That's their entire, they don't participate. I've noticed I don't use social media as much. I am having a love affair with Reddit. Reddit is great, actually. I, you know, I now, I'd sort of been led to the, well, you know, what's interesting is that Google sort of is giving me more Reddit threads in my searches than I'd ever been getting before.

42:55Interesting. Are you still using Google for search? Yeah, I'm not a, I'm in a relationship with a, I'm not even going to take that as shade, Kara. You're in chat. I bet you do. No, I'm not. No, you don't? But, you know, I'm probably going to get there because I'm in a relationship with a man who is, you know, I love a man who loves ChatGPT. Oh, well, certain people do. But he is really good at it. And I'm learning that you can't treat ChatGPT like some annual Google search. You can't. It's not. You can't. It's a relationship. You can't get cheap with ChatGPT. No, you can't. You got to whine and dine ChatGPT.

43:30You got to prompt. The prompt. Yes. The prompt. You got to talk to it. The prompt. You got to make love to ChatGPT. Oh, my God. You know, you got to really, like, give it what it wants. If you, like, it's like, you know, ain't nothing going on but the rent. You know, use what you got to get what you want. You got to give ChatGPT what it needs, you know. Yeah. Does he step out with any other LLF? I mean, he's tried everything. Over to Claude. Over to Claude. Wait, there's a Claude? Claude, yes. Where's Claude? Anthropics. Oh, no. Kara. Ask your man. My man is secretly out with Claude pretending to love chat GPT with me.

44:09Claude, that's right. Claude, there's a lot. Claude is pretty good, actually. Everyone is a different one. And then there's Google, Gemini. I just think my point is when I'm using boring-ass, basic-ass Google. Well, Google is now Gemini, really. Which works for me. AI, by the way. You've noticed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have noticed that. And I don't like it. You know, a lot of the time it's wrong. You'll learn to like it. even though it's not right it's like right ish it'll it'll get right okay it'll get right it'll get right but reddit is the thing that that google is now pushing me like it's near the top of a lot of my searches when i'm when i'm looking for information so i've i've become a reddit person like i'll just go to reddit now there used to be a lot of heinous stuff on there but the people that's what kept me away something changed something changed it's it's you know what it is it's a consumption i think reddit is like youtube it's consumptive where you don't have to necessarily participate, but it brings you all kinds of interesting information if you curate it properly.

45:04And I know people have talked about it this way, which is like, it does remind me of the past. It seems somehow innocent. And at the same time, you know, a lot of the people there take it. It is like the information is good. Like I have traveled based, I made travel decisions based on Reddit threads. And you've gotten good results. Yeah, I've gotten good results. My sons use it completely. Let me ask you about another cultural thing, because this is all over Reddit and all over social media. South Park has done it again. I have to say, whatever is in these people's drinks is working for them. The third episode of the show, current season, continued to mock the Trump administration, an episode focused on federal takeover in D.C.

45:45In the episode, the president is mocked for accepting bribes from big tech CEOs, sort of real to life, once again is in bed with Satan and, yes, still has a micropenis. Let's listen to a clip of Trump receiving gifts from a line of suck-ups, including Tim Cook.

46:01Mr. President, you have so many great ideas. Your leadership is truly beyond anything we have ever had in this country. And you do not have a small penis. Ah, thanks, Ken. On behalf of the state of Florida, I'd like to give you this gift. A silver-plated space shuttle. Next! Mr. President, your ideas for the tech industry are so innovative, and you definitely do not have a small penis. Ah, thank you. Please accept this gift on behalf of Apple. So tell me what you think of, it also did take, this latest episode also took some shots at chat GPT, by the way. But talk about this show right now, something's in there, Wheaties or whatever.

46:49I think that the timing is really good. I think there's something about the brute force of the South Park comedy ideology. I think the show didn't have to change for us to come back to it. What do you mean the brute force of the comedy ideology? Explain that. Their approach is really to just name the thing, right? To just say the thing that... To make the subtextual textual. um there's no line to you don't need to be literate to watch the show if you know what i mean like you don't need to be visually literate and you don't need to really have a great sort of sense of cultural literacy you just have to basically know like have a gist of what's happening um especially now but i mean these guys their genius is for um i think that's part of their genius to sort of be declarative in as comedians to not need to have.

47:59It's like the Easter egg is is an omelet on that show. You just see it. They just say it's just the thing that you they've cracked it open. You don't have to look for it. You might not agree. Like the trans stuff. People complain about that. I just think they go after everybody. I think that. Well, that's the thing that like always sort of scared me about those I mean, I'm doing an episode with somebody about my relationship with this show. And a lot of where we're starting in this conversation is me sort of thinking through how much the show scared me because it was forcing me to think differently about things that, you know, as a young person, I thought I understood.

48:45And here were people who were basically my age who were making fun of things that I didn't think you could make fun of. You mean example? Jesus. Yeah, they do make fun of Jesus. I mean, I'm not a, you know, I wasn't an extremely religious person, but I didn't have time. I wasn't thinking, I mean, you know, and I had lived, this was, I mean, I would consider South Park part of the culture war era of the country, right? The beginning of the show was happening at the end of the so-called culture wars. And, you know, I'm familiar with Andres Serrano's Christ Piss and Chris Opheli's work and Madonna.

49:26And yet there was something about the subversiveness of doing that dismantling and undermining in the form of like crude children's animation, right? It was actually, the animation is so crude that it isn't for children because all the lines are sharp, right? All the lines on those drawings are sharp. Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about it is, you know, that they can, not that they continue to push against Trump. They will push against anybody, I think. And obviously the tech leaders are perfect for that. I mean, they don't even have to mock them. That's exactly what Tim Cook said, you know, when he was handing him the golden statue, essentially, or whatever the golden, whatever the fuck he handed him.

50:06And it's just, I think one of the things they do is, as you said, they are brutal. They're just, they don't even have to make satire here, right? Because everything is so ridiculous on some level. Well, I mean, I think that the one thing that they have changed is the calibration. Because, you know, when South Park, Bigger, Longer, and Uncut, the great, truly great movie musical they made 26 years ago came out. there was a degree of subtlety happening there because, you know, they were taking the satire of the sitcom and essentially overlaying it. They were stretching it to fit a movie musical format.

50:49And so the movie is a legitimate musical while also functioning as social and political satire. It's just that in 1999, the culture was different. And so the thing that people were upset about was the way in which it depicted Satan and homosexuals and was having a good time with these conflations. And I found that naughtiness to be really liberating in a way. I did too. I was not offended, interestingly enough. No, I was, I mean, I should have been an offended party as a gay Negro, but I wasn't because I kind of understood the place that the comedy was coming from. And I think that in these, in the lifespan of this show, we've seen our relationship to comedy change like 10 times.

51:45Yes. Well, you think about the Book of Mormon too, though, right? Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, I loved that show so much. And oddly enough, I was there, I saw it several times. And there's a lot of offensive gay things in that, you know. And it's fun, but it's funny. It's funny. But it's really funny. And I know it's like, don't pick on the gays. I'm like, it's okay, a little bit to pick on. I mean, the gays pick on the gays. The gays pick on the gays, let's be clear. And other people. In our meetings, in our meetings when you're not there. But the Book of Mormon to me, I was recommending someone see it even now because it's so, I actually may go back and see it again.

52:18I'm going to go back, actually, because I think, you know, for the purposes of this thing that I'm doing, I'm going to go back and see it. But one of the things is I was there once. Still on Broadway. Still on Broadway with a bunch of Mormons went because they thought it was funny. Certain Mormons think it's funny, too. And it's so insulting to Mormons. So but it's it's it's interesting that I don't think the Trump administration thinks this is funny because they have no sense of humor. Right. This group of people are not going to if they continue at it, they may. especially the micropenis part, which is really funny, which is what everybody thinks of Donald Trump.

52:51He is a micropenis. That's what is, you know. Well, I mean, Kara, I can see the tie. Yeah, that's correct. And, you know, the thing that, like, I find scary, I found scary about Trey Parker and Matt Stone as a kid was that they didn't seem to have any allegiance to anything other than, like, their comedic version of the truth and the joke. Is the joke funny? And after that, we don't care. This is why I like them. You know, sometimes I had a real issue with Dave Chappelle because I didn't mind he was making jokes. I was like, do you need to make an hour of them? And some aren't funny. Like, make it funny.

53:30Like, at Easter in San Francisco near my house, they have Hot Jesus. Have you ever been to the Hot Jesus contest? Oh, I mean, hello. Fantastic. Hello. But it's like, someone's like, oh, it's sacral. I'm like, no, it's funny. It's like, if it's not funny, then why do it? And that's what I like about it. The hot Jesus, come on! I mean, but again, like, I think that the return of this show has been really useful to remind us. I mean, because we've had more fights about whether comedy can be comedy in the last— I mean, this has been going on since 9-11, honestly. Like, what can be funny? What are we allowed to laugh at?

54:10When can we laugh? um what now is comedy is really about like who the comedian is and the the thing about having south park back is nobody's changed it's not like in just like that where carrie miranda and charlotte are now no longer 28 to 34 they're in their mid 50s they're like mid to late 50s and figuring out how the world works the world has changed but the people in south park have not Have not. That's exactly right. And it's still funny. And it's still funny. It's still funny. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest to join the podcast game, Taylor Swift.

54:53There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, are late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

55:42That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

55:51Wesley, we're back with more news. Last week, Taylor Swift went on her boyfriend Travis Kelsey's podcast to announce her newest album. As usual, she broke the Internet. The episode had 1.3 million live viewers, which is almost double the audience that tuned in to see Donald Trump on Joe Rogan. At the time of the taping, the episode has 20 million YouTube views in total. Meanwhile, Spotify reported the episode has become one of the past year's highest performing within just one day of release. Increased female viewership of the shows by 600 percent. Not a surprise. 600 percent? 600 percent. God damn.

56:23I know. I know. I guess dudes are watching that. Talk about that. she can do whenever it wants. I mean, of course, Donald Trump was saying she's not hot anymore. She's still hot. She still remains. I'm sorry. Can we pause? What did he mean she's not hot anymore? I don't know because she is hot. She looked beautiful on that show. Like, does he mean did he mean it like that or she's not like No, she's no longer the thing. She's not What is he talking about? Exactly. This man, I mean, I can't talk about big Thai energy. I just can't do it. I just won't do it. Yeah, exactly. Big, like, Like long tie energy, is that what it is?

57:02I, first of all, I found it interesting that she basically was using it to, she was using this appearance to announce an album essentially, right? Yes, exactly. It wasn't as though this show needed, you know, there are shows that would love to have Taylor Swift come on for the numbers. This didn't feel like a numbers play to me. It felt like she was trying something out. I mean, she kind of said it herself on the episode. But I think that, you know, I mean, this is a show that has Adam Sandler come on. Brad Pitt's been on it. Like, it's not like it's not a desert for celebrity guests. So having her come on, it felt kind of sweet.

57:48And to the extent that like a thing that turns into an album release announcement It can be can be sweet, pure and innocent. This felt a lot like that. You know, the thing that I that sort of listening to the show, the two of them, you know, the brothers, Travis and Jason Kelsey, you know, who have these like they have like very different off the show lives. and to bring their different personalities and energies into the show is often fun. It really does feel like two brothers. Yeah, they have a nice relationship. They have a good relationship, but it was interesting watching Jason try to drive this particular episode.

58:34Oh, because he's all Taylor, right? Yes, right. Oh, my brother's famous girlfriend. Well, but also the way that Travis Kelsey is just hype-manning her pretty much the entire conversation. That was, it was just interesting seeing the show dynamics change around the arrival of this person. Right. That must be like that outside, right? She's got to suck up all the energy. I've heard that that happens. I've heard that that happens. Even if she doesn't try, she can't help it, right? Because one of the things I thought about the show is, again, like Sarah Jessica Parker, different, but pound for pound, she's really entertaining.

59:14Like, she's really, like, you can't stop watching her, and I don't know why that is, right? And so wherever she appears, and she even sings about it, right? You know, my daughter was dancing to Auntie Hero the other day. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I don't know why she's so attractive to people, which is, especially women, that it was a completely pleasurable experience watching it in a way that was very satisfying, I thought. I don't know. Maybe not. No, I listened to it. I didn't watch it. I watched it like a tiny little bit, but I listened to most of them. You gotta watch it because she leans into it. Anyway, go ahead.

59:46Oh, no. I mean, I was allowed to imagine it, right? I find, I don't know. It's interesting. She's an interesting physical presence. And I kind of like her better in my imagination, if that makes sense. You know, I have a real, it was interesting listening to her talk about, listening to the three of them talk about the Eros tour in their different ways. And, you know, the way that, I mean, I had forgotten the entire story of the relationship, right? Like, I mean, he was at the show and was like, I gotta know who this person is. I mean, you know, he's the luckiest fan in the world. We all know this.

1:00:32He gets to go home with the thing that he went to the show to see. And she seems happy with that. I think that she, the way she talked about that show was interesting to me in that I have a lot of wonder about what these tours are like for the artists. And, you know, unlike the Beyonce concert documentary of her Renaissance tour, the Ares tour film didn't have a lot of backstage stuff. It didn't. You're right. She wanted to sort of preserve the magic of the live experience, whereas the Beyoncé film, to me, was fascinating because she wanted to kind of enhance the mythology of the achievement of the live experience by humanizing the person who becomes someone else on stage.

1:01:29Yes. And so it was great listening to her talk. I mean, you know, it was enlightening hearing Taylor Swift talk about toe spacers. But she does that. I would encourage you to go back and watch Miss Americana again. That's true. Because that gives you enormous insight into her. Yes. Watch it now when she's famous, because at the time she was on a downswing, right? Yeah, it was around the time that Reputation was being rebuffed and Lover was about to come out. Or there's another show where she's in someone's house where they're singing all country songs. She's with two of her, and they're just talking about the songs.

1:02:01I mean, I think she's quite accessible and yet unknowable in a lot of ways. And I felt like this was, you know, but you do know a lot about her in a weird way. And I think she may be just like this, right? I always think, does a drunk agree with the sober is an expression. You know, when people are drunk, they're different when they're sober. Yes, yes, yes. I think sometimes you meet certain people who are exactly the way they are in private and public. And then there's some that are quite different. You know, like a Johnny Carson would be the perfect example. Like shy and kind of an asshole. Oh, yeah.

1:02:34You would be disappointed to meet him in person. Yes, exactly. Because you're not getting Tonight Show Johnny Carson. I think she's pretty much like this. I think she's lived in fame for so long. This is what she is. I would agree with that. I also, but there's something about, yes. I mean, I think that the thing that I loved about this conversation was how seriously she was taking it in some way. Like she wasn't there to do all the joshing that the brothers were trying to do. And so like there'd be Jason would ask a question and she'd be in the middle of answering it. Travis, Kelsey would kind of interrupt and then they would start doing their brother thing.

1:03:14And she would not even acknowledge that that was happening. And she would continue giving her answer. And that was to me, I just felt like she was happy to have this opportunity to just think through. herself. In a safe space, right? In a place where she wasn't going to be asked a follow-up question, basically. Right, right, exactly. Listen, the results are the results. People are still thrilled with her, which is really interesting. We'll see how this album does, but people still... We'll see how this album does. What do you think is going to happen to this album, Kara? It's going to be huge.

1:03:51Like, nobody's going to care? No, everyone's going to care. But I'm saying, like, yeah, but how can you top yourself if you're this woman? That's the difficulty of being Taylor Swift. I will never forget my Night at the Arrows tour. I truly will never forget it. Me neither. It was one of the most special communal experiences I've had. I've had a lot of special communal experiences. This is definitely in my top 50. And I think one of the things that was special about it was one of the things that she kind of wanted to unpack a little bit, which is like the toll that it took on her body. And you can really, you know, after two and a half hours.

1:04:27Kara, I watched this show. Well, I was fine, but I was, I was watching it with a friend in front of three, I don't know, 13 to 15 year old girls. And for the first hour of this show, which really annoyed me because Lover is the opening album and I, I'm a, I'm mostly a lover person. I, it's not my favorite Taylor Swift album, but I do really, there's some great songs on that album. And these girls were screaming for like an hour, just screaming, just screaming. It didn't matter what, they just screamed the entire first hour of that show. And I just, I couldn't, and also like, the part of me that is like, like, wanted to turn around and give them like the dirtiest look I possibly could.

1:05:16I was like, don't do that. You're not supposed to be here, Wesley. These people, this show is for them. It's not for you. Don't you old man them. Just stand there and take it. But Kara, at like hour 107, I'm sorry, hour 107, at minute 107, when Taylor's still going strong, guess who is passed out on the seats behind me? The kids are out. They don't have the stamina of this 35-year-old woman. No, no. She is the bomb. It's crazy. She wiped these girls out. Yep. And she did it night after night. And now she's doing the same thing with podcasting. She did the same thing. But she made that look easy.

1:05:57But I think what I'm saying about the limitations are, the only limitation to me is that I think it keeps her from doing something that I think is really critical for, like, artistic growth in some way, which is to, like, be reinterpreting yourself. Yes, but she doesn't want to. I mean, just the act of re-recording those songs, she basically does it. I mean, I think the original recordings are the important artistic document. The important historical and political document are the re-recordings. It's the re-recordings, 100%. Like, one of the greatest things a pop star has ever done is re-record the old material.

1:06:37That's correct. It's not artistically, it's good. To me, she thinks it's better in some ways. Her singing is better. But I didn't, that's not what I'm showing up for. Yeah, I agree. But let me just tell you, Taylor Swift does as she damn well pleases. That's all I understand. Newsflash. Newsflash. And she's going to continue to do so. All right, Wesley, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

1:07:07Okay, Wesley, let's hear a prediction. Anything you want? Anything you want? Another thing, I'm going to do an Adam Sandler episode. Okay. I love Adam Sandler. I'm sorry. I'm not against that. And I am just obsessed with these directors trying to win this man an Oscar. Oh, because they're trying to the serious one. Everybody wants to try to win like the murderers row of people who have tried to win this man an Academy Award is just y 'all need to just stop it. Just stop. Because when you stop trying, it will happen. I mean, I don't know. So there's this Noah Baumbach movie coming out toward the end of the year that he is in.

1:07:56And, you know, I really enjoy Noah Baumbach. I enjoy Adam Sandler. This isn't even my favorite Adam Sandler mode. I won't even get into it here. But, like, I think, I believe, for a lot of reasons, the stars will align for Adam Sandler to at least go to the Academy Awards with his name on a list. That's a prediction I'm going to make. That's what you predict. And, you know, he's done a lot of, I mean, remember Spanglish in 2004? I just watched the sandwich scene from that movie. It's so, it's such a good movie. It was amazing. I love Taylor Leone. The lighting in that movie, the reason I can't really go back and keep watching it is it's some of the worst lighting I've ever seen in a movie.

1:08:36Oh, see, I don't even get to. Just truly bizarre. Like, it's all lit from above with fluorescence. Nobody looks good in the indoor scenes. Taylor Leone always looks good in the show at Paz Vega. Yeah, but she's mostly outside. You'll notice Tay Leone is mostly outside in this movie. She's got like three indoor scenes. Everybody else is inside. Okay. Anyway, I think he's probably, he's not a bad thing because he is actually, every now and then you see very good acting. Even though he does say, you know, a little like Jerry Lucas. Can you do that again? There's a really good SNL skit where he visits his relatives and they're like, I think you're taking my character.

1:09:13And they're all his cousins. Oh, yeah. It's really great, actually. But he's, I think he's like Jerry Lewis to me. And Jerry Lewis, I think, was a fascinating actor. Yes. He's more interesting to me than, well, no, that's not true. I mean, Jerry Lewis at his peak, they're comparable. Jerry Lewis has more cocaine in him. And Adam Sandler is more weed. Oh, yeah, that's a fair point. Or beer. I don't know. I mean, if there's a drug, what is their drug or what is the drug that personifies them? Jerry Lewis is hands down cocaine. What's a speedball? Speedball. A cannonball. Well, I mean, maybe it's a speedball that's Jerry Lewis.

1:10:03Yeah, speedball. That's true. Who knows? Or a drink or a martini. No, that would be Dean Martin. That's Dean. That's Dean. That's Dean. You're right. Rodeo dodo. So anyway, so you predict he's going to get an Oscar. Nomination. Let's not go crazy, Kara. Okay. All right. Because who's going to like hip check him? What does he have to do? Because he's been in some serious movies. Yeah, but that's not enough. You really, I mean, like truly do I think he should have been, I mean, it just hasn't happened because it doesn't need it to happen. You know why? Because he does Happy Gilmore too. That's why, even if it's highly successful.

1:10:36But I think the thing that makes him great is that he doesn't want it. Like, the thing that makes him great is that he's doing Happy Gilmore, too. Yeah, he is. It's very successful. Like, he—this is a person who really enjoys himself. I miss weird Adam Sandler. And that's—I won't get it—like, that's the thing I really was going to try to get into, but I'm not going to do it. You will have to come back for the Adam Sandler episode. Okay, I can't wait. That'll mostly be about none of the things we are talking about, but this other mode of Adam Sandler that I really love. All right, I can't wait to listen to it.

1:11:05Well, this has been great. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business and tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Just send a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Wesley, you're wonderful. I think you're wonderful. I can't believe I got to, like, spend 75 minutes talking to you. Oh, come on. You can hang out with me in real life. I know, I know. People can listen to Cannonball or Parlando, whatever you want to call it. Cannonball. It's not called Parlando. You got to be real clear about that. Parlando. in my head I'm going to think Parlando well fine but it's it's cannonball and you're on YouTube as well even though you don't like it you got a nice shine up you look great thank you you look really all the times when some of them less I'm not going to say anything about Ross do had it all but anyway I think you just said it I just did say there's no shining possible for that man he's got other attributes I don't know okay sure Why not?

1:12:04Okay. Don't make me insult him. I have a name for him and everything else. You do? I do. I'm not going to tell it to you on the show. I'm not going to do it. But ask Amanda. She knows. She knows. She's named him. Okay. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, we'll be back next week. And please listen to Cannonball. It's a great show. Thank you, Cara. Leslie is a very prescient person on all things culture. You always make me think. And I really appreciate that on lots of ways and ways I didn't think I would think about. Back at you. Thank you. Anyway, I will read us out.

1:12:37Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited this video. Nishat Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. The days to Scott are ticking away. But Wes, I really appreciate you being here.