TikTok Ban Approaches, China's App Crackdown, and Guest Dana Mattioli

22:34Maria Cantwell wasn't against it. Now she's for it. ByteDance indicated it could mount a legal challenge. That's where it's going next. During the ban would trample free speech rights. It'll definitely go in the courts. It's won before in courts. In November, a federal judge blocked a Montana law to ban TikTok across the state. Specifically, Donald Trump attempted to ban TikTok in 2020. He was also rejected by a federal judge. It'll definitely go to the Supreme Court. And then they'll have to at least look for a buyer in case they law. But if this does become law, future bans of foreign companies and products, we've done that before.

23:06Thoughts. Very clever way to get it through. Then they have to deal with the law itself. I mean, there's so many ways you can tell you're getting older, right? The idea of a cruise does not sound horrific to me anymore. I'm like, oh, okay. You know, I actually listened the other day. Someone was talking about catheters, and I'm like, say more, because I know it's coming. And the other, I'm not exaggerating, Kara. On Saturday, I was obsessed with C-SPAN. I mean, I might as well have been 120 fucking years old. This Saturday. I'm just thinking of you and a catheter, but go ahead. My dad says the guy who invented the catheter should literally get the Nobel Prize.

23:43Well, I can see that. I'm sorry I got thrown off there. Men have an easier time. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, there we go. There we go. So, God, just talking about catheters makes me want to pee. Yeah, okay. Anyways, Cara, I just want to be clear. Yeah. My new favorite person or near favorite person is Speaker Johnson. Oh, good heavens. He took so fucking long, but go ahead. Oh, okay. He's done more than anyone else. Okay. Okay. Okay, TikTok. They delayed it and then saved the day. This is fantastic legislation. It'll end up being divested. Everyone's going to get their money. We're going to ensure that our young kid, that we don't raise a generation of civic, military, and nonprofit and business leaders in America that hate America.

24:29It creates more trade symmetry. It is ridiculous that this is no different than if in the 60s when we were in a Cold War with Russia, we let the Kremlin own NBC, ABC, and CBS. I am thrilled at this. And, oh, wait, it got wrapped up in pushing back on a murderous autocrat. Oh, wait, and it got wrapped up in a bill to support our supreme ally in the Middle East. I just like Saturday, literally. It is rather clever. This literally, you got to give it to Speaker Johnson. You got to give it to, and by the way, this thing is overwhelmingly passed. Well, all this, you know, we talk about how partisan the Congress has become.

25:05And this, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene saying we shouldn't do any of it until we talk about the border bill that Trump told her. Oh, Marjorie, did you see that cover of the New York Post? I mean, this is how lame I am. I'm calling my friends on Saturday. I'm like, the bill's going to pass. They're like, dude, what are you talking about? And I'm like, it is literally, it's like if I showed up and it was you said to me, you know, Emily Rodakowski. Whom you will never meet. And does she ask about me, by the way? No, not yet. And who are the other two women? Oh, Senator Cantwell and Patty Stonecipher all want to hang out with the dog.

25:47I mean, this was three. I hate my life. I hate my life less and less every day. And Saturday, I hated my life less than I have in a go America. Oh, let's push back on an autocrat. Oh, let's push back on a murderous terrorist. All right. It's going to go to courts and you know it's going to get blocked, right? No, it's not. 100 % no. Okay. All right. They're going at this from trade symmetry, executive action, divestment, not free speech. Go on, talk about your free speech bullshit. Fine. Rupert Murdoch had to become a citizen. You're not allowed to own more than 20 % of a broadcast station in the U.S., but we're going to let TikTok own the frame through which Young...

26:31It is a broadcast network. We and I agree on that. Yeah, I think it's going to hold up. OK, all right. Well, all right, then. OK, so what do you think going on here? I like that you're all excited watching C-SPAN. It's kind of weird with a catheter. But yes, I think I think it was a very clever way to do it. I thought, you know, they had they had a log jam in the Senate and it was going to sit there. There are issues around Rand Paul might block it, etc. and the whole thing. But they're going to shove it past him, I think. But it may be delayed because they're supposed to vote on it like in the next two days.

27:05But, you know, Rand Paul or someone else might be in the way. Nonetheless, he may try to block it. J.D. Vance, who hangs out with Marjorie in the Russian section of the department store, tried to stop it but couldn't. Obviously, Trump's been silent, but he's in court. He's busy in court. He doesn't have his phone all day. Did you see the photos or the drawings? Sleeping? No, Trump. Yeah, sleeping? Which one? Oh, my God. He looks like, he literally, this is more bad taste. He looks like a suicide bomber that's having second thoughts. Careful. He's like. You know about the farting. What series of decisions led me to this moment?

27:46No, but it's the case. And were those the right decisions? He said wrong. He's a prisoner. He's a political prisoner. Consequences rarely present themselves lubed. they usually show up pretty rough. And when I see this guy, it's like, I just get the sense he is smart enough to know, okay, this shit is getting real and it is not good for me. And there's a piece in the Washington Post about how he's getting more unhinged on true social, which is going down more in price, speaking of down prices. You know, we'll see. Did you, you know, he's, of course, just a sidebar. You understand the farting thing when he sleeps?

28:24That was all over the friggin' - I heard that, but I don't understand it. He's farting when he's sleeping, as many people do. But the poor lawyers in court have sort of a Giuliani situation. Jesus. I know, right? That's brutal. I know. It's not good. He cannot now say Sleepy Joe ever. He literally can't use Sleepy Joe anymore. That was a good one, too. He can't do it. Joe seems up and up as a pup now compared to Sleepy Don Slarleon. No, this is a big week for President Biden. He's done really well. Don Fartleon, whatever. The farting is just, it's like old guy farting and sleeping in the court.

28:56It's bad. Anyway, allegedly farting, but I'm sure it's true because a lot of people tell me they are sitting nearby who are there. Anyway, let's go to a quick break because when we come back, how China might retaliate for the TikTok ban, which is the second part of this question. And we'll speak with friend of Pivot, Dana Mattioli, about what she calls Amazon's ruthless quest.

29:20There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, are late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

30:10That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

30:18Scott, we're back. The TikTok ban might be the latest battle in the tech war between China and the United States, but China's also making some moves of its own. Not unexpected. The Chinese government ordered Apple to remove several popular messaging apps, including WhatsApp threads and Telegram from the App Store in China late last week. Apple said it was told by Chinese officials to remove the apps due to national security concerns. Of course, we aren't there at all. So they're taking all of them out. A lot of these apps are already blocked in China, but taking them off the app store prevents them from being downloaded outside the China's firewall.

30:48They're obviously retaliating. It's kind of a dopey way. Apple is sort of getting in the middle of this whole thing because they're going to have to take off. If TikTok doesn't sell, they're going to have to take it off. Apple's in a bad situation, unfortunately, for it. But its relation with China also is complicated. It's been trying to manufacture things in Vietnam and India and elsewhere, but it's still the main manufacturing hub for the iPhone. And they generated$68 billion in sales there in 2023. That's a lot. He just visited Tim Cook, the CEO, visited China to shore up relationships. They're trying to get out at the same time.

31:20They're stuck there. You know, Tesla, of course, has a lot of exposure there. a couple of U.S. companies. Not that many, because China doesn't have reciprocity with most of our tech companies. But still, a big issue. Last week, I had a really interesting conversation, by the way, with Dmitry Alperovitch and Chris Krabs about U.S.-China relations going into this next election cycle and the threat China may pose. And they did talk about this retaliation. It'll run as an episode of On with Kara Swisher this Thursday. But they thought this is exactly what they do, this kind of stuff. And we're really in a, you know, they talked a lot about Taiwan and everything else, but this is something that they think they'll refuse to let happen.

32:00So thoughts, they obviously are trying to pull out all their weaponry. This was a shot across the bow. This was an attempt to say the most valuable company in the world and a key component of your stock market is heavily reliant both on the demand and the supply side on China. And if you're going to fuck with the ultimate propaganda tool that we have managed to foment and support in the U.S., we are going to pretend it's about trade symmetry and we're going to start fucking with Apple. And I do not agree with your colleagues. Like Apple needs China, but China needs Apple. China is actually fairly weak right now economically.

32:38And the thing about China is when young people or any nation, when people are economically doing poorly, they try to vote in the other party. And the way you vote in the other party in China is you hang the leadership. So they have to, in many ways, they have to be very responsive to economic growth. And it would absolutely hurt. They could turn Apple off. Apple produces so much of their, you know, Apple right now, anything with the word China in it right now does not get a green light. They are trying to diversify like crazy. They're investing in India. But here's the thing. I actually think China needs Apple more than Apple needs China, strange as that sounds.

33:19So they employ, do you realize that Apple employs more people in China than they do in the U.S.? Those are good jobs. They're high-paying jobs. And not only that, all of those components and assembly that flow through the Chinese supply chain, you're probably talking about several million jobs. And young people love their iPhones. So I think this is a game of chicken. And I think China's going to blink. bank and all of that. Chinese investors are going to make so much money when this thing is divested and the cloud of political insecurity is lifted. And they just have very few legs to stand on.

33:57Let me again, just for fun, list all of the American media companies in China. Okay, I'm done. I mean, we're going to win this one, Cara. It's going to be divested, They'll hum in the haw. And what people don't appreciate— Then they'll invade Taiwan. Actually, I don't think they're going to. See above, we're funding Ukraine. Anyway, which I think is an incredible deterrent. Also, if you look at military history, it would be very difficult to take that out. Yeah, they thought they had us on that one. I'll tell you that. That's for sure. But you have the following. You have—when people look at the—they chose the wrong word saying ban.

34:32It's forced divestment. And what people don't appreciate is that there's a lot of light between a ban, divestment, and coming to some sort of accommodation with the White House. They will come back and they'll say, all right, there's so much money here. Can we figure this out? White House, can we do something? Now that we actually believe you are going to ban us, we didn't believe it before with, you know, Joey Baggy Yahoo flatulation was trying to carve it up and give it to his political friends. We knew that wasn't going to work. We didn't think your Congress could get their act together. We didn't think that's going to work.

35:05But now that it looks like it's going to happen, hey, Joe, is there any way we can come to some sort of accommodation where you're happy and we're happy? There's a lot of things they can do to figure this out. Okay. All right. Well, that's a very positive way. I think – I'd love you to – if you ever get a chance to listen to their thing, I think they are very much interested in Taiwan right now and that there's a lot of things they can do. I think we are going to we are going to the danger of being in a shooting war with them is high, especially if Trump wins. Not no reason not to push back on them.

35:37But, you know, some of the people he's picking are really like, let's let's start fighting with China. Let's shift all our focus, which these guys actually thought like as much as important as both Dmitry and Chris thought Ukraine and Israel was that our real resource, the ability to have even just weaponry and get that to China, to Taiwan, et cetera, is going to be. We have a limited amount of weaponry and manufacturing capacity and everything else. I don't know. I think they are our adversary over the next 30 years, like in a really significant and frightening way in many ways. But we'll see.

36:13I know especially since Xi Jinping is holding on to power and aging. He's starting to get, you know, moved into crazy Mao zone kind of thing. But we'll see. I think this is the natural move they would have. We'll see once it passes what they say. There's going to be a lot of, you know, chess thumping for sure. I'm not sure they can do anything about it. And maybe they'll just take the money, although I think that's not really the interest because actually a lot of the company is owned by U.S. citizens, which is interesting. Most general out of partners, Sequoia. Yeah, a bunch. Sequoia, I think, is in there.

36:47A lot going on there. Yeah, there's a lot going on there. I mean, these guys should just take their money and figure it out. The issue is who's going to get the algorithm. them. I think all the parts of it will be chewed over for a while. I don't, no one's getting the algorithm. What's it worth? Are you overpaying for it? It's a great brand. Will it be the same product? And my guess is already TikTok's numbers are sort of flattening a little bit compared, you know, it's not in that explosive growth period that it was in. And so they have, it's a real problem for them because these people tend to move on from things very easily, as you know.

37:21So we'll see. We'll see. But just a point on Taiwan. I think the most important battle around who, if China succeeds in invading Taiwan, is happening and we're winning. And that is continuing to fund Ukraine. There's no way Xi and the analysts of China don't look at Ukraine and go, that could be us only worse. Taiwan is incredibly sophisticated and wealthy. You don't think they've been planning for an invasion? Also, their good friend, the United States, has a cadre of nuclear submarines off, you know, all around the strait there. It's certainly a conflict we don't want to be happening. We'd like to avoid it.

37:58A hundred percent. That's why, you know, Biden just met with the head of the Philippines and Japan, who've been saying some pretty tough things about China unusually. So we have to really stress our commitment to that area. And the best way to defer an invasion of Taiwan is to continue to fund Ukraine. Yeah. Anyway, it does put everybody in a real it's real geopolitics. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

38:27Dana Mattioli is The Wall Street Journal's Amazon reporter. I used to be The Wall Street Journal's Amazon reporter, but also all of the rest of them. Now they have different ones for each company. She's written a new book about the company called The Everything War, Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power. Dana, welcome. Thanks for having me. So you've been on the Amazon beat for a while now. And I really was. I covered Google, Amazon, Netscape. They just had one of me at the time because they were small companies. Talk about what you were hoping to find by digging into the larger story of the company.

39:01Obviously, Brad Stone's written two books on them. Amazon did not give you any access to special assets for the book, but you talked to more than 600 people, including current and former employees. Talk to me a little bit about it, because my impression from Amazon at the start was that they, I think I used it in my book, they're feral. He was feral. Jeff Bezos was aggressive and feral from the get-go, especially compared to the soft, squishy people of Silicon Valley in comparison. Super aggressive hedge fund guy or investment guy, math guy, adult. So talk a little bit about that, what you were trying to get to.

39:36So I covered mergers and acquisitions for six years at the Wall Street Journal, where my whole job was to break which company was buying another company. And when I started, the retailers were obviously nervous about Amazon. But over the course of those six years, everyone became nervous. It went to the consumer CEOs and then the logistics people and then health care. It just seemed like their tentacles were spreading everywhere. And they all became so nervous. And I wanted to figure out why. And, you know, it's one of the most powerful companies in the world, but also the most secretive. And it was this black box that I really wanted to get inside and understand how it always seemed to win, how it was wreaking this havoc across industries.

40:14And that's what this book does. It gets inside the company and lays forth their competitive or anti-competitive business practices. Mm-hmm. So talk a little about that. Let's start with Bezos because it does come from Bezos. He's having now the greatest midlife crisis of all time, seems to be enjoying himself. putting the same aggression into being whatever he's doing right now. But we're good. We're down with it. But talk about him, because I've always thought the DNA of companies is the DNA of founders. And the company reflects him quite significantly. But companies change, too. Microsoft, I'm thinking, under Satya Nadella versus Balmer and Gates, who were also aggressive and feral.

40:54Talk a little bit about him and where they are now. Yeah, I do think that the culture really does stem from him. There's a scene in the book early on. It's 1994-ish. Company's just launching. And, you know, the early employees were kind of missionaries. They wanted to democratize reading. They weren't there to make a lot of money. And he gets frustrated with them. He says, you know, you guys just lack a killer instinct. And that was a little bit surprising to these people. And what you see is after the IPO, they start making money, at least in the stock market, not on paper. They start getting all these MBAs to come in.

41:25And the company is built more in Jeff's image. And that's what we see today. Even though he's not the CEO anymore, the culture is largely built around Jeff. It's, you know, after 18 years of covering companies in some form at the journal, including investment banks, it's one of the most aggressive cultures I've ever come across. It's fear-based. And I think when you get into some of the shocking behaviors in my book, it's largely driven by that culture. Give me an example. Yeah. So, I mean, there's examples of Amazon, you know, employees doing whatever it takes to keep their jobs and stay ahead and not get cut by the bottom 6 % at the end of the year.

41:59And they do things like spy on their third-party sellers to reverse engineer their best-selling hits. There's a scene in the book that's resonated with a lot of people from the excerpt where they hire this woman from Trader Joe's. She's not really told what she's going to do when she comes into the company. And her first week there, she walks into this conference room in Seattle that has craft paper over the windows and the doors. And it's all blacked out for a reason, she walks inside and it's filled with Trader Joe's products. And she starts piecing together, oh, they want me to figure out what to source from, you know, to compete with Trader Joe's.

42:33And from there, her manager just pressures her for all of her internal documents from Trader Joe's to copy all of their bestselling products. So behaviors like that, where this pressure cooker environment causes people to do things that are either unethical or anti-competitive, but it also causes, you know, mental health issues. There's another scene in the book where an employee who is put on a performance improvement plan, which people fear there, you know, writes a suicide letter at his desk, sends it to the whole company, including Jeff Bezos, and walks to the roof, jumps off, right? He luckily survives.

43:05But I don't see, you know, that sort of behavior elsewhere when I've covered corporate America. Okay. I feel like Scott's going to jump in and say, that's the price of doing business in some companies. But go ahead, Scott. I don't know what you're going to say uh nice to meet you dana and um look anti-competitive behavior you know i think amazon is a monopoly and should be broken up i think we probably the amount they charge third-party retailers has gone from like 20 to 50 percent they're they're exploiting the monopoly power you know in terms of going to work and having it be hard the people who go to work at amazon have most for the most have a lot of options and they choose to trade off that stress in that environment for what is an opportunity to get economic security.

43:50Isn't Amazon, everything that you're doing, you're talking about, isn't the problem not that they're doing it? Because I would argue that I can point to any company that does something similar. It's just that they're so good at it. And aren't these people grownups? And if it's really that tough on them, they can get a job somewhere else. Isn't this capitalism? To your point, like these are some of the smartest people in the workforce. So yes. And they do churn through the company pretty quickly because, because some of them want to have Amazon on their resume because it opens other doors. But I would pick a little bit around other companies doing this.

44:20Like I just had an article last week about Amazon setting up a secret shell company and this covert operation to get onto their competitors' platforms and take information from them. And well beyond what normal companies do for benchmarking per se, right? They're misrepresenting themselves to - Is it illegal? FedEx. It could be depending on what they found and how they used it. It would depend exactly how they use it. If it's illegal, then someone should go after them. But if it's not illegal, then quite frankly, aren't they doing their job for their shareholders? I think the answer is in the nuances to what they found and what they might have used.

44:53But it's a willingness to be aggressive. This is what the point being is that they're more aggressive than other people. And then where's the line, correct? That's right. And I think, you know, with the FTC lawsuit in September, they're saying, like, this is an illegal monopoly. to Scott's point, they've ratcheted up these fees on sellers from, I think it was 17 % a decade ago to 45 % today. And, you know, I have examples in the story of these sellers who, one of them, he makes$10 million a year on Amazon and revenues, okay? At the end of the year, after all the fees he pays and overhead, that goes down to$30 ,000 in profits.

45:27So what does he have to do? He's had to raise his prices for customers in order to start offsetting that. So talk about these the antitrust charges brought, they were brought by the FTC last September, as you know. What do you think about the FTC's case here? And I'd love you to also identify what the weaknesses are if you were Amazon pushing back. Yeah. So the FTC sued Amazon in September and they made their case around, you know, higher prices for consumers. They said because Amazon is a monopoly on e-commerce and 40 % of all retail e-commerce in the U.S. happens there, sellers have to be there.

46:03And Amazon knows that, and they've ratcheted up the fees. And that's translated into higher prices for consumers. But what they say that's really interesting is that because Amazon had this contractual obligation that you have to have the lowest price on Amazon, that Amazon's power in e-commerce has caused higher prices throughout all of e-commerce, including like Walmart and Target and other e-commerce places. Now, what's interesting is, you know, the FTC under Lena Kahn is taking a different direction. She has railed against the consumer welfare standard of antitrust. And they've lost some challenges to acquisitions like Microsoft and Activision or Meta within Unlimited.

46:44What's interesting here is it is kind of a traditional consumer welfare sort of antitrust case. So it might have a better footing in that regard. But from Amazon's perspective, they will say, we do things for the customer. That will be their argument here, that everything they do is to benefit the customer, that there's other places for people to shop, there's other places for people to sell. Yeah. And what is the chances here from your perspective? It's really tough to say. It's not slated to begin until October 2026. There's a long time between then and now. That's right. And I would say there's some momentum behind what Lena Kahn and John Cantor at the DOJ are doing.

47:18There's even some Republicans, like they call themselves the conservatives, who are behind this mission. People like Matt Gaetz, weirdly, that believe in this. But I will say it takes a longer time for these ideas to be accepted by the courts where they're ultimately decided. And it hasn't been like a resounding success when you look at the track record. Well, is there a role in Congress for that? You know, Congress took a shot at this. There was a bipartisan investigation just a few years back where they came out with this really expansive report calling all four of the companies, of the big tech companies, you know, monopolies.

47:49Ken Buck and David Cicilline. Exactly. Who now are both gone. Who then have gone. Exactly. Exactly. So TBD, if they would bring something like that back. But, you know, the legislation really got stalled. And big tech, you really saw their lobbying power on display during that whole scenario. Yeah. But they got TikTok. Anyway, Scott, next question. The thing I don't understand, I'm curious to get your viewpoint. I'm a shareholder at Amazon, and I think a breakup would be good for shareholders. I think AWS on its own would trade at a higher multiple and then shareholders would win. And is this their desire not to not to break up the company?

48:24Do you think it's it's an ego thing? Do you think that they get a ton of synergy from these things? What what do you think gets in the way of them not prophylactically or proactively spin a couple of these units and avoid antitrust scrutiny? And let me add, I've interviewed Andy Jassier and asked this very question. And he seemed it seems like I'm asking him, you know, you know, please get naked on the stage here. He just, it's an anathema to him to think about something like this. And it's a dead no, for sure. And now he's CEO. This was before he was CEO. I think maybe he just became CEO. First of all, Andy has been telling his deputies that the current company could be a$10 trillion company in the next decade.

49:01So he sees a lot of room to grow. Obviously, that'd be the biggest in the world. But second, I think even though most companies have failed at this conglomerate model, then activist investors have made them break it up saying this does not work. There's a conglomerate discount. For the most part, it works for Amazon. in some ways it's its secret sauce. If you look at all the competitors that have to work with one tentacle of the Amazon octopus, a lot of them actually work with several and it gives them a lot of leverage and negotiations. If you want this, then you must do that, right? And that's on display in some of the anecdotes like with HBO, Time Warner in the book and others where they're sort of tying their businesses together.

49:36Right, right. It does. It does. They're adjacent. They're certainly adjacent whether it's, you know, music or Hollywood or healthcare or delivered, all kinds of things. They do tend to belong together. And many years ago, Jeff talked about moats. He was building moat after moat after moat. That was what he said, you know, at the time. And I really did get it, what he was doing. It was price, convenience, et cetera, et cetera. Talk a little bit about the difference between Jeff and Andy Jassy, who has been there. I met him when he was a very young man out of college. He was like an assistant, just a very low-level person there.

50:12And a lot of the people there are, have been there a long time. Fun fact, I turned down a job there very early on. Talk about the difference between Andy and Jeff. And is Jeff involved again? And then as a follow-up, Andy's talked a lot about, you know, the stock's gone up after his shareholder letter, especially because he talked about AI and stuff like that. So would love to hear about that. Andy and Jeff are very different personality-wise. It's funny. There's some scenes in the book where you see, like, a Machiavellian, sometimes, like, almost a cruel streak to Jeff. Like, you know, the first week of the new CEO of Toys R Us' tenure, he calls him up unannounced and just says, hey, how's it feel to work with poor performing people?

50:51And the guy's sort of taken aback. I can tell you Jeff's a jerk. He was always a jerk. But go ahead. And he wasn't good at, you know, making relationships on the Hill or glad-handing. He had like a disinterest in that in some ways. He backfired in some ways. He was like more scorched earth, which is this pugnaciousist, which actually filters down with the company and government relations and PR. Jesse's different. He, to me, seems much more diplomatic, wants to mend bridges, is involved in their lobbying in some ways in D.C. on these antitrust issues. so I think it's much different leadership and tone coming from him than it was under Jeff and I don't get the sense that Jeff is back day to day he's spending more of his time or most of his time from what I hear on space endeavors and blue origin I think he's spending most of his time on something else and I mean the term on by the way does Andy Jassy realize that he's going to die and there's nothing he can do about it is he different that way I'm sorry so two questions Lauren and Sanchez.

51:56Sorry, your turn. No, no, no. But you don't feel like Jeff's going to – he doesn't have to. Andy's sort of gotten a hold of it. And the way – it reminds me a great deal of Satya Nadella and Gates and Balmer. I'm putting them in one big nasty brew as managers compared to – he's a very similar profile to Satya Nadella in that regard. Meaning do you think he'd come back? No, I don't think he'd come back. I think Satya Nadella and Andy are more similar than in the same way Gates. Yeah, I think that's right. And Dave Slash Bomber is similar to Jeff, you know, kind of thing. I think that's right. People sort of view Jeff as the visionary and, like, the big personality.

52:33And people describe Andy as more of the operator. Yeah, and has long been. And he made one of the – he ran the most important – the thing that saved Amazon's ass was AWS, of course, for a long time, or kept it going in that regard. So I have one final question. Where does – do they get to be a$10 trillion company? What stops them? It's a good question. I mean, if you think about how bullish ANSI is on AI, you know, they're just starting to get into health care, which is one of the biggest sources of GDP in the country. If they're successful there, that opens a lot of doors. They're getting into satellites with Kuiper.

53:03So, you know, first of all, they don't seem to be deterred by the antitrust lawsuit. They're still forging ahead. That's still the mandate is to get to 10 trillion. Much more aggressively than Google. Yeah. And they're seeing a lot of white space, it seems. Because you cover M &A, I'm just really interested to know, well, two questions. And one's unrelated to Amazon. But do you think if they had to do it again, they would have made the type of investment they needed to make and have the distraction of Amazon Prime Video? And two, I would just love to get your no mercy, no malice take on the Paramount situation and who you think will be the ultimate victor there giving your beat.

53:36On Prime Video, it's funny, Andy just recently said that it could be a standalone company. And, you know, people there talk about it feeding the flywheel. Like that gets people trapped into the moat that Kara is talking about of Amazon Prime. So even if you're not shopping as much as you used to, you might keep the membership for the benefits of the video. On Paramount, actually, I'm not an M &A reporter anymore. I just focus on Amazon. So those would be more for my colleagues. But you can't get out of it. Oh, don't be measured. It doesn't stop us. It doesn't stop us from talking about things we have no demand.

54:05He was an extraordinarily aggressive M &A reporter. So go ahead. I honestly haven't been paying that much attention. If I'm being totally honest. Let's talk about Lauren Sanchez. I'm sorry. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on Lauren Sanchez? Well, there's a scene in the book, which weirdly has gotten a lot of traction, where, you know, there's a lot of animosity between the Trump White House and Bezos and Amazon, but also the Biden White House, too. He's been, like, persona non grata except for this, like, state dinner. He's a jerk. But, you know, he had this big coming out party in 2020 after the alfalfa ball.

54:34And, you know, Trump did not go, but all of his—like, his daughter went. You know, Jared went. And Kellyanne Conway goes and Kellyanne is approached by Lauren and she says, you know, you've done such a good job like deflecting all of this hate in the media. It's like, you know, it's a little bit after the affair and everything else. How have you done it? And they like sort of cozy up and, you know, Kellyanne says, you know, you live in the neighborhood now. Let's go on a jog together. And you could just see that even though Trump is really just royally pissed about Bezos and his wealth and the Washington Post, the people in his cabinet were cozying up to Bezos and Lauren.

55:11Yep, of course. I love money. What are you talking about? They would throw their mothers in the street if they needed to. She's coming out with a children's book, Lauren. I don't know if you know that. People who know her say that she's lovely and very generous and nice. She's very smart. Whatever. Probably one of the smart people like that. I'd do them for that money. I'm in. Jeff, call me. Anyway, she may have a bigger role, I think, in the future as you move forward. She has a lot of points of view of a lot of things. But we'll see. We'll see where it goes. That's your next book, Dana. And again, the book is The Everything War, Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power.

55:47You should read it. It's a really good book. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks, Dana. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

56:01Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You go first. Well, just first off regarding about Jeff Bezos, I actually think there's a lot of evidence that he's going to come back. I think pretty much every night he comes on our back. Is that wrong? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I walked into that. There was a pause. You didn't even know what I was saying. I was going to disagree with you. Is that wrong? Oh, my God. Will that make the cut? That was a good one. This one stays in. Okay. That penis joke is a good one. Just for the readers, at some point, maybe, you know. Readers. They're listeners. They're listeners.

56:37Oh, that's right. Where am I? Daddy? Where's my catheter? Okay. Anyways, there are two or three comments in every episode that get edited out. So just tweet Kara. Tweet Kara if you want to hear the B-sides of everything that'll get this show canceled. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. Anyways, Wednesday fails. That was a good one. That one stays in. you fail well win is we're both going to be watching Shogun on tonight right you totally love that show good for you I love that show it's the final show I think it's tomorrow night no it's it's really well done yeah but you'll be doing your book thing but I'll be paying attention to Shogun you'll be watching Shogun yeah yeah alright you go ahead I'm talking about financial security yeah okay it's simple my win is Speaker Johnson the United States Senate, the United States Congress, President Biden, a bipartisan effort that in one fell swoop has decided that we should not have the frame through which our youth view the world be influenced by an adversary that's decided that a murderous autocrat that's trying to invade Europe should be pushed back, that we absolutely have the will, we absolutely have the resources, which will also help defend Taiwan and send a clear message to every autocrat.

57:54And when the West binds together, our resources, our technology, our human capital are unparalleled, an insurmountable force. And also that our ally, a country that has bodily autonomy, civil rights, jury trials, academic research, when it's attacked, that we come to their aid, that we provide unconditional support. I know it's somewhat conditional, but we provide steadfast support to try and push back a cult of terror and chaos. I just think this is such a wonderful moment for America. I'm really, really happy about it. He looks like he got a briefing or two, like a real security briefing from intelligence.

58:28Apparently, Burns was quite influential on him. He just suddenly realized his responsibility and realized maybe the Russians don't like us or maybe for fucking with us. Yeah, but I also love that. I think he got he learned. He learned what the actual world is like instead of, you know, cosplaying. You're talking about Speaker Johnson? Yeah, I think he got briefings. He's going to be on the right side of history. But he was because he got educated rather than falling for this. Most of these people don't listen to anybody. They double down. When you're second in line for the presidency, maybe you pay attention just a teeny bit more.

59:03OK. You're talking about what should happen, and it did. It oftentimes doesn't. And this guy, who I was not a big fan of when he was made speaker, he's realized the speaker, we need to govern. It's an administrative role, not a political role. And he has taken personal risk, professional risk, and stood up to these far-right fucking crazies who just want attention on TikTok, who don't give a good goddamn about the well-being of the Commonwealth. I think it's just a wonderful moment for the West, legislation, packaging them all together, politically deft. This is just – this season of C-SPAN is off the fucking hook.

59:40It's better than Shogun right now. Let me say, he's calling himself a Reagan Republican now. I mean, you know, thank God you listened to the briefings, Speaker. good idea to get yourself fucking educated. You're being cynical. He's done his job. He's done his job. He deserves some credit. To listen to the briefings. Okay. And most of them don't do their job. Jesus Christ, give the guy the W. Give the guy the W. And then my loss is simple. It's on the same side of that. The CCP, Putin, and Hamas are less weak today. Their culture of chaos. More weak. I'm sorry, are weaker today. Their culture of chaos, of violence, their culture of autocracy, dictatorship, of, you know, whatever you want to call it, anti-Americanism, this is a bad day for them.

1:00:25And it took us too long, but this is, we are, you know, we are that shiny beacon on a hill. We have more resources. If we can add the economic value of a small GDP or GDP of a small nation in five minutes post an earnings call, if we have the biggest military in the world, what's the fucking point if we don't come to the aids of our allies and push back on autocrats? So the losers, hands down, Putin, Xi, and Hamas today. And this is a huge win for what is the most positive force in the history of humanity, and that is the American middle class and the U.S. government. I think it's a wonderful weekend for us, Cara.

1:01:03I think my win is a similar thing for democracy. This Trump trial, he goes on trial. You may think it's a bad trial or a good trial, but he goes on trial and he has to listen to what people think of him. He's got a, I don't know how much damage really. He's a bounce back kind of fella. But this is a guy who made fun of war dead. He makes fun of people as suckers and losers, veterans and everything else. He has to listen to what the actual people think of him, good and bad. Some of them liked him, by the way, in those among the things. But he had to listen to the American people truthfully. He got briefed, I think, in that jury selection, which, by the way, went very quickly for it was a win for that judge.

1:01:43It was supposed to be two weeks. He did it in a week. Now they're doing they're now right now. They're right now. First witness is up. I love our jury system. I love the whole thing. And you can insult all that you want about cases and this and that. But boy, does does it work? It really does. Of all the things that don't work, this works in a great way, and he'll either get off or he won't get off, but he has to fucking sit there and take it, just like everybody else. And you can decide. I thought some of the Martha Stewart thing was unfair, but she had to take it. This is what happens. And David Pecker is the first witness, which is the strongest witness.

1:02:20We'll see who does better here, and if they make their case, then he should be convicted. If they don't make their case, he shouldn't be convicted, and that's the way it goes. Speaking of making cases, and you will be silent throughout this, but the fucking New York Times spends its time literally like trying to say there's too much Taylor. They literally spent the time on her upward thing doing way too much coverage of all the stuff. And now they're saying too much. You know, is it fatigued? The review was incredibly weirdly sexist, as were several of them. I don't even know what you're talking about.

1:02:55Oh, it's overstuffed. not her best. Oh, Taylor Swift? Taylor Swift, the tortured poets department. I think she's going to end up selling a zillion of them. And the same thing is they're trying to find the way to bring her down after riding her all the way up, you know, riding her popularity all the way up. And so, you know, you can decide whether you like it or not. Some people love it. Some people don't. I think she's going to sell as a billion. But I was really quite, the coverage in the Times is literally like it was too much before. Now, I'm fatigued of their—that they have to shift and doing so much about that.

1:03:32And they also did what I thought was an egregious interview—I mean, review of Anne Lamott calling her a throw pillow. I'm sorry. That was—you know, you don't have to like a book, but seriously, the way they talk about certain women just drives me crazy in the reviews. Anyway, that's what I said. You may now speak if you'd like. Speak now, as Taylor would say. I mean, you're going to agree with this, I think. There is something to, I'm reading Fareed Zakaria's, what's it called, Age of Revolutions? Yeah, it's a good book. And he has this, I did read the article you're talking about, and I thought to myself, if a male superstar was just a phenomena, would they be trying to constantly saying, yeah, but?

1:04:14There's something, just as I believe that no one believes they're anti-Semitic, it's a series of incremental rationalizations for holding Jews to a different standard than the rest of special interests groups. I think the same thing is happening unwittingly to the West in a variety of subtle ways, and I think this article articulates that. If you look at the United States, the group that has fallen furthest fastest is young men. But if you look at globally, the group that hands down has ascended the fastest over the last several decades is women. Women are now pursuing tertiary educational attainment at a greater level globally than men.

1:04:52the number of women elected to some sort of parliament globally has doubled in the last 30 years. And the bottom line is the most conservative sex of any religion, and also generally speaking media, they just have a different approach sometimes for women who ascend that kind of heightened success this fast. There's a certain amount of, I don't know what it is. I just wonder, Would the New York Times or anyone else be looking for soft tissue in a guy that had ascended this fast? There's something, and I think we need to be cognizant of it. I'm trying to be aware of it. What is it about when female CEOs are aggressive, they're a bitch.

1:05:33When males are CEOs like Jeff Bezos, they're leaders. There is something weird about the additional, and also, quite frankly, it plays to their benefit sometimes because people like the phenomena and they run to her music because it represents other things. But I saw that article, I'm like, they don't even realize, like, would they write this about Jay-Z? I don't think they would. No, not at all. And by the way, let me just say, the other one they're attacking, Beyonce and Cowboy Carter. Same thing. I'm going to see her this weekend, by the way. Oh, come on. You know what? Let me just say, between Greta Gerwig, Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and by the way, Anne Lamott, guess where she is on the New York Times bestsellers, number one.

1:06:11You're welcome for the money, everybody. You're welcome for selling things. Beyonce, Taylor, Anne Lamott, you fucking rock. So where are you going to see Beyonce's got? Well, let me tell you, Karen. Where are you going to see Beyonce's got? I'm going to Bill Maher on Friday, and then I'm going to go with all my college friends and have an Arrested Adolescence Weekend at Stagecoach, which is the new Coachella, but it's country. Oh, yeah, I've heard about that, yeah. And supposedly Beyonce is going to make a surprise visit. Oh, man. What are you wearing? Something fabulous. Assless chaps, right?

1:06:38I hope. Yeah. No, that's Monday through Friday. This is the weekend. I haven't thought about my outfit. But you need to wear something. Like, in this case, can you please fucking dress up? I got to get. Can you dress up like Beyonce with assless chaps? I got to get dressed for Mar. I need to look credible yet young. I think you should wear assless chaps to Mar. But nonetheless, you need to dress up for that. And you need to have an outfit in that case. Yes. Call Joanna Cole. She's my fashion guyota. On the win, I would recommend, by the way, Walt Mossberg, whose job now is Taylor Whisperer. What?

1:07:09Walt Mossberg is in retirement, but all he writes about is Taylor Swift. He did a playlist of the 15 songs of the 31 he likes, and I kind of agree with him on the ones he likes. And every single song on the Beyoncé, you have to listen to it on autoplay, Beyoncé album. It's fantastic once you start to really listen to it, especially, there's popular songs on that album. But the one I love is Bodyguard. Please listen to Bodyguard. I listened to my first country music last night. I listened to this guy named Blaze something. It's really lovely. Here's a quick stat you'll like. Did you know Taylor Swift, more people spend more time listening to Taylor Swift than all of jazz or all of classical music combined?

1:07:50Yeah, I'm just saying. Isn't that wild? Anyway, New York Times, you're welcome for Taylor Swift so you can like trash her and ride her up. Anyway, and also Beyonce and the rest of them and Anne Lamott. Congratulations, Anne Lamott. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever is on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Submit a question for the show or call. 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. And have a wonderful launch week for your book. I am excited for your book. I'm excited for Stephanie to interview you. I'm excited for your Bill Maher thing.

1:08:20Everybody focus on Scott and his book this week. I would get it. It's a really great gift, especially for young people. And I don't mean just young men, but young people to think about money. I have been talking a lot to my sons about money and them taking control of their finances now that they're older. And it's the book I shall give to both of them. I appreciate that, Cara. We'll be back on Friday for more. All right. Today's show was produced by Larry Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks to also to Drew Burrows and Mille Silverio. Nishat Karwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

1:08:52Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. There is nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with what is right with America. We are the most steadfast, well-resourced, technically literate, brave, courageous people in the history of the planet. And we showed that this week. And congratulations. It's a wonderful moment for youth in America, for Israel, and for the Ukrainian people and democracy-loving people around the globe.

1:09:28The U.S., U to the S to the A. Thank you.