TikTok Ban, Sam Altman's Return to OpenAI Board, Fake News Sites

23:21I'm just not down with that. And here's what happened, and it backfired on him. And this is why this is going to go through now. Supposedly, there were thousands of 13 and 15-year-olds calling our representatives in D.C. and saying, you're taking TikTok away. And this has supposedly steeled the resolve. It's out of the House Select Committee or the Commerce Committee 50 to 0. Yeah. I think this is going through. What about the Senate? It'll probably go to the Supreme Court, too. But here's the thing. Words matter. They screwed up by calling it a ban. It's not a ban. It's not a ban. There's too much money.

24:00What it is, is it's regulation. That's like saying a speed limit of 55 is a ban on cars. It's not. They're saying, unless you transfer ownership because of the defense risk here to an American company, we're regulating this and you're not going to be able to be in the app stores. To be clear, TikTok's going nowhere. There's too much money on the line here. Some of their biggest investors are Sequoia Capital, General Atlantic Partners. Yep, Americans, yeah. We shouldn't have said this was a ban. We should have said this was guardrails or regulation because all of a sudden everyone's like, oh, it's First Amendment.

24:32You're taking away things. No, it's not. We're regulating it. No, it's a surgery designed to remove the tumor and thereby save the patient in the process. That's a quick mouthful there. But let me go opposite. If you are TikTok, you're now running TikTok. What do you do? And what's your biggest, what's your best argument that they would have? Well, here's the thing. The folks at TikTok, okay. If you're the member of the TikTok executive management team that's affiliated and charged with the CCP and your family can be disappeared if you screw this up, you're really trying to figure out a way not to have it banned.

25:09And if we, the Mossad - Which they deny, let's be clear. What's that? They have denied this, that it's not run by China, that they run it from Singapore. I'm going to just give them there. They've denied it. Yeah. They would be stupid not to be doing this. How could they resist the temptation of raising? They can't beat us kinetically. They can't beat us economically. We're killing it. They've shed$6 trillion in their stock market in the last three years. Their unemployment rate around people under the age of 30 is 25%. They're not energy independent. We are kicking the shit out of China right now.

25:42So what do you do? If you can't beat them economically, you can't beat them kinetically, divide them. So again, this is going to go. What's your prediction? It'll get passed by the Senate. Biden signs it, goes to the Supreme Court. Well, the prediction is much more nuanced than that. I do think this gets banned. But by the way, folks, you're not losing your TikTok. Because right after the CCP realizes, well, we no longer have the ultimate propaganda tool that the CIA, the Mossad, or the GRU would have killed for. That's gone. It's off the table. Bummer. Now do we want to lose a third of a trillion dollars?

26:15And this is what's going to happen. It will be sold to Western interests. You're still going to have your TikTok. And who? What's that? Microsoft? I don't know. I don't know. I think it'll be a consortium. I don't know. But this is the prediction. Right now in the secondary market, TikTok or ByteDance trades at a valuation of a quarter of a trillion dollars, despite the fact it has better margins, despite the fact that it has the most valuable consumer set in the world. Everybody will make money. They'll give up on the propaganda. Here's the prediction. Not only are you still going to have TikTok, it's going to be banned, but not only do we still have TikTok, the value of ByteDance is going to double because the only reason it's trading at$250 billion and not$700 or$800 billion is this cloud of uncertainty over it.

26:58What happens if they get banned? Well, if they get banned and it goes to Western interests - Listen, I think I have long advocated that they do this, right? That said, there's going to be repercussions with China. Although most companies, Apple is there, A couple of companies are there. A couple of big U.S. companies depend on China. That's one. You mean they'll start banning U.S. media companies? Let me think there's zero? Zero. Yes, exactly. There are going to be repercussions too. I don't think there's going to be a slapback from teens. I don't politically. I don't think at all, in fact. I think very little.

27:33Because they'll be able to access it in some way. And they could also go around the app stores. What will be interesting to see is whether Apple and Google comply with it too. I mean, once it's banned, they'll have to. But what happens there? I it'll be I'll be interested to see how kids react. I don't think they're that obsessed with it in the same way. I do think you're going to see a lot more pushback from China in this area. I think it's not unwelcome for either the Biden people. I was surprised Trump made this. I'm not surprised he made the flip-flop because he likes money. But I think it was kind of a dumb political calculation, given he was really quite first out there in the thing.

28:09This is a masterstroke in the Biden administration. Yeah. They're going to reduce the wet matter, the soft tissue of raising a generation of American civic nonprofit and military leaders that hate America. They're going to reduce that risk or eliminate it. Two, you're still going to have your TikTok. And three, they're going to increase the value of this thing by a quarter of a trillion dollars. And four, they're doing their fucking job. They're supposed to prevent a tragedy of the commons. I think it's going to. This is when, more money, more, my 13-year-old's not a foot soldier for the CCP, right?

28:48This is, look at this data, look what's happening here to, and the problem is it's kids. If the Atlantic, the Washington Post, CNN, Canal, Gannett, CNBC, MSNBC, Fox, and CNN, if they were all owned by the CCP, that's still not the dominance that TikTok has on this age group. It'll be interesting to see if it continues to accelerate more legislation around 230, around a lot of - Let me ask you, what do you think is going to happen? I think they're going to pass it. And I think it might, in fact, go to the Supreme Court, who will have to clear the Trump cases off their desk and get to that. But I do think it'd probably be a Supreme Court challenge, I suspect, around being able - Did you read it?

29:38It's much smarter this time. It is. That's what I'm saying. The Trump people did it. I remember saying it's directionally correct and executionally. What a bunch of fucking idiots because this is a chance to do something. But we'll see. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about whether Elon Musk has been good for Texas.

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30:34Scott, we're back here at South by Southwest. Wes, thank you everyone for being here.

30:46Where our BFF, Elon Musk, has made an appearance the other night in an Amazon Prime thing. Since we're here, we thought it might be a good time to talk about his relationship with the Lone Star State and who's getting the most out of it. Just to recap, Elon moved to Texas in 2020 after criticizing Silicon Valley and the Bay Area for having, quote, outsized influence in the world. I will point out he moved his Tesla headquarters from Palo Alto to Austin, although he have a huge facility in California still all over California. Just last month, he moved as SpaceX's state of incorporation from Delaware to Texas.

31:21It has a large testing facility here. He did that also because of the case against him when they took Delaware, took away all his bennies, so to speak. They'd like he'd like to reincorporate Tesla here, too. But of course, that requires shareholder approval. So he's done that. But he also has been involved in lots of things in Texas. He urges Tesla employees to vote out far left Austin, D.A. apparently didn't like the incumbent in this local race and emailed staff saying vote for a new district attorney in Austin who will, quote, actually prosecute crimes. It didn't work. His guy lost. It was kind of a Ron DeSantis moment for him.

31:58Another one. And then who did he back? I don't know. He keeps back. He's allegedly going to back Trump, but I'm not so sure. Elon Musk's SpaceX is poised to acquire protected public land in a swap with Texas. Elon wanted 43 acres to expand SpaceX's rocket launch facility. In exchange, Texas will get 477 acres somewhere else. The Sierra Club isn't happy. Some 60 percent of the public was opposed, but it's happening. At the end of the year, he's apparently going to spend$100 million to open a new university in Texas. He's talked, of course he is doing this. He's talked about establishing a tuition-free school called the Texas Institute of Technology and Science, or TITS.

32:38Kind of guy that you kind of like. Of course he calls it that. I don't know why he didn't call Twitter, instead of X, call it Titter. That was my thought. It works for him. It works for him. Because, you know, people, he's 52 and boob jokes are really funny at 52. Thoughts? Prayers? So, look, I think one of the, actually one of the productive things about the United States, let me be clear. If you make, if you create$600 billion in economic or shareholder value using the infrastructure and the roads and the University of California and the great Cal State system, I think when you recognize that capital gain, you should pay California taxes on it.

33:20So I think we need some sort of interstate tax agreement similar to what we've done internationally with Janet Yellen, where basically they've said, okay, it's no longer a race to the bottom. We're going to put you out of business, Isle of Man or Ireland, if you don't institute a minimum 15 % corporate tax so Apple doesn't issue its IP and engage in tax avoidance. I think we should do that. Having said that, one of the wonderful things about America versus Australia or the UK, I think it's good that states compete. I think California, quite frankly, is not getting its money, or California taxpayers, quite frankly, are not getting their money's worth.

33:56If they can come to Texas and Texas can figure out a way to manage the state. And as far as I can tell, distinct to the politics. I'm just talking about day-to-day operations.

34:08I live in Florida. They're going to you. I live in Florida. But, you know, when I call the fire department, not that I've done it, or the cops, the public schools, you know, I would argue they're putting pressure on high-tax states. I think that competition is a good thing. All right, I'm going to push back on this completely because you're wrong. Frequently wrong, but never in doubt. I do think California, by the way, right now, I was just there, vibrant. San Francisco was cooking with gas. I have to tell you it's because of AI. All the AI companies, there's just a story in the Wall Street Journal, all these tech bros that left, we're going to Miami because it's better, are back.

34:40They're back. I saw them. I'm like, oh, you again. But they're there. AI companies are tearing up. The city is alive, really alive. Every restaurant, not everything, the homelessness is delicious, but they just addressed it with two new, they just passed some relatively conservative statutes in San Francisco to protect people more. I think they're handling it. I think they're doing it. You have, you know, Governor Newsom is a very exciting politician suddenly. and I do I don't think I think they are correcting it and way ahead of other other cities are suffering from the same thing same same issues and and they will deal with them I think it's great that Elon moved to Texas see ya I'm thrilled goodbye Mars would be even better but um but it and he should he should go it's his dream um he said he wants to die on Mars I'm saying great See ya.

35:33But I do think that it's easy to bash on California when it's just not true. The crime statistics aren't true. That's the Fox newsification of things. I'm going to go to L.A. Tuesday morning, hang out at the Beverly's Hotel, go down to the beach, put on big sunglasses, have an unlit cigarette in my mouth. And anytime anyone walks by me, I'm going to go, Jackie, marry me. I make you a very happy woman. That's Aristotle Onassis for anyone under the age of 50. I love L.A. hottest Uber drivers in the world, by the way. I love LA. This isn't an argument over how good or bad California is. I just think it's correcting itself.

36:09I think it's great that states compete with each other. I think it's a good thing that some state says, you know what? We can't compete. We don't have Zuma Beach. We don't have the Bay Area, but what we have is low taxes and your money's worth. And we'll do whatever you want. And I think that's going to be a push and shove issue around. Competition, it's great. No, but I'm saying in the state, the reason Elon or people like Elon and Elon and Tesla is because he gets to do what he wants. And there he got so angry. One of our biggest fights in an interview, and he tried to walk out, but he never does because he always says that and doesn't do it, was over the closing of the plant, remember during COVID.

36:45And we were talking about it and he said, there's going to be 15 deaths from COVID, Cara. I've read all the material. But he was very angry about, and that's where our beef was, about California shutting down that plant. And it was one of the motivators of him moving. I mean, you and I are in violent agreement on Mr. Musk on a variety of dimensions. But the idea of an entrepreneur coming down to Texas, investing, doing cool things, I think he is going to be good for Texas. Like Dell or whoever was here. It does create a good thing. Job growth. By the way, some inside baseball. About two and a half years ago, I got a call from a friend of mine who's involved in this university.

37:27And he said, would you get involved? And I said, why do you want me involved? And he goes, well, to be honest, it's gotten some pushback. You're a progressive. And I'm like, you're going to use me to wallpaper over a conservative university? Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. And that's what they were doing. And I'm like, so who are the founders here? Like, who's funding it? And he was very, very opaque. And it was this thing. Yeah. Yeah. You could work for Tits. I could have been on the faculty for Musk. That would seem to be a university you should belong to for your jokes. We'll see. We're thrilled he's here.

37:56We're thrilled he's not in California. It's great. It's fantastic. He's in California a lot, by the way. I think just my issue is they all have to trash it. Just live where you live. And especially the Miami crew, when they were trashing it, they never stopped talking about California. I was like, your girlfriend broke up with you. Stop talking about her. Just go away and Godspeed. Yeah, it's like tell me you have an unrecognized capital gain without telling me you have an unrecognized capital gain. Yes, exactly. That's exactly right. Okay, come on. Just be honest. We're going to talk about one more thing and then we have a couple of things.

38:26We'll get to questions from the audience. Elon Musk is creating a YouTube competitor. You know what? It's not going to succeed. So let's not talk about it. It's bullshit. It's going to go the way of blue or whatever the fuck that was. That business is dying slowly. It's off 30 % according to Forbes. It's not going to work. Sorry. Sorry, Linda Yaccarino. Not going to work. Good try. Electric Carman Carivian made a beautiful car. Have you seen this thing? It's gorgeous. The R3. that you haven't are you going to get the R3 now? No, I have one on order but I haven't outfitted it. Get the R3 and give it to me.

39:02Okay. Deal. They're still having trouble. The Amazon-backed company rolled out three new vehicles and announced$2 billion in savings by pausing construction of a plant. Very hard to make money. The cash burn. Yeah. Should Apple buy Rivian? You know, they got out of them. We talked about this. It's an interesting idea but Apple probably won't. They don't like to make acquisitions. It's a beautiful car, I have to say. I also think they've just decided that that's not the future. I think even Apple has the true cool truth of capitalism is you have finite resources. I think they've decided that their capital is probably better spent around consumer applications for AI than getting into a manufacturing intensive low margin business.

39:40Yeah. And the last thing is OpenAI said it's reinstating Sam Altman, who you think is a liar, apparently, to its board of directors. No, I just think Sam is going to do it. Yes, he's going to do it. For-profit companies are there for – I think they do their job. We're not doing ours by regulating people who will increase – force a progressive tax structure on them and then redeploy that capital and make sure there's guardrails in these companies. They're doing their job. We're not doing ours. So anyway, the outside investigation where he's fired and rehired in a matter of days, the employees supported him.

40:11The company now says it has full confidence in his leadership. Probably he wrote that press release there. I have full confidence in myself. I think I'm fantastic. No. And, you know, the investigation revealed that it was a, quote, consequence of a breakdown in the relationship and loss of trust between Altman and the board. Absolutely. It was a power play. They lost a few board members who were in the middle, like Will Hurd and Reid Hoffman. And then it was two sides against them. And the other side had more. It was a power play, the whole thing. They're not releasing the full report. You know, there were some reports that he was aggressive and difficult, which is like another Tuesday with almost any entrepreneur I know.

40:46It's adding three women to the board. There's more coming, I think. Dr. Sue Desmond-Hellman, a former CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I know her quite well. She's terrific. Nicole Seligman, a former, also who I know, Sony General Counsel, and Instacart CEO Fiji Simo. Interesting choices. I do know, this is a slight scoop, they had asked Bob Iger to be on the board. They want a big media executive. He couldn't do it because he needs to stay neutral in the AI wars, I think. I think that's their interest. I do think, I think he should have gone on it, but I think they need a big media executive.

41:19Is there anybody you would say? I would put Jeff Bukas on the board. I just came to make it. Jeff Bukas. Anyone else? I don't know. Kara Swisher? I don't know. How about Kara Swisher? I just said that. Oh, you just said, I thought you said, I don't know Kara Swisher. Like you were just using my full name for some odd reason. But me, Kara Swisher. I'd be good. Yeah. 100%. I would fuck things up. I would be the worst board member in good in many ways. Don't you think? Would you put me on a board of your company?

41:55In all honesty, you don't get enough credit. You're actually a capitalist. You appreciate the economics of business. You're a pragmatist around business. So yeah, I would put you on the board of a company soon after I left it. Okay. All right, Scott, let me have a quick break. We'll be back from questions from the audience. We're excited about your questions.

42:21There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025 are late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now.

43:10That's This Week on Channels. wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

43:19Okay, Scott, let's get some questions from this very attractive audience here at South by Southwest. Are you guys ready? All right, let's get to some questions. We've got about 10, 12 minutes. Let's go. Where are they? I cannot see. Hi. Oh, okay. I wrote it down because I'm really nervous and English is not my first language. Okay. You sound perfect. You sound perfect. Thank you. Oh, my God, I'm so excited. You guys were just talking about platforms that need regulation because they are actually harmful to kids and teens. But while institutions do not get to a conclusion, brands are spending millions, I mean, hundreds of millions of their ad budget directly onto these platforms, sometimes even targeting young people.

44:03And that's not just in the US. I mean, I'm from Brazil. And most of the marketing budget from companies has been going to not only TikTok, but all the others. Most of Google and Facebook dominate. My question is, what are your thoughts on this particular dynamic? And what role can brands play on advocating for kids and teens? Because aren't they somehow funding all that? They are, of course. But that's what they do all the time, right? I mean, I think ultimately it's the platforms themselves that are responsible for the safety of platforms. Now, brands can pay with their money. They tried in different ways.

44:38Remember when they pulled back from Twitter? From X, yeah. X, right, or Twitter. Let's call it Twitter now. We haven't seen anything like that. No, you don't, but they're not going to. Because it delivers too much engagement. These people want to sell pizza or whatever, or Cialis, or whatever they want to sell. They want to sell it, and they're not going to do anything else. They're just not. If you're waiting for big advertisers to save you, good fucking luck. I'm sorry. It's not going to happen. But these platforms could be safer. They could do a lot of things that are very easy that they don't want to do.

45:08And again, when I saw Mark not do that, I thought for a second he would. Just one second. He looked at those parents. He's a very good parent from what I understand and I've seen. He looked at those parents. I could see it in his eyes, and then he couldn't do it. He couldn't say, if anything I did caused this pain, I am sorry. Couldn't do it. So I think the platforms have to be forced into these safety things. Advertisers are going to go, you know, why do you rob banks? That's where the money is. And why do you advertise in these? That's where the audience is. And Scott had said something the other day where social media usage was going like this and advertising was down here and broadcast advertising was up here.

45:48And the numbers shifted. They're going to go there. That's where they want to sell things. And so that's the way it is. I don't think it's up to brands at all. Yeah, brands didn't leave Twitter because they don't. they think it's bad for kids. It doesn't work. They left Twitter because it's ineffective and they don't want the brand risk of showing up next to a swastika. So in addition, because Meta, because Meta, I don't think anyone advertiser is more than like a third of a percentage point. So they just don't have the power. When one company controls two thirds of social media, but no advertiser essentially has more than 1%, boycotts are totally ineffective.

46:27So, I mean, I'm against coal-fired plants, but I turn on my lights, I'm not going to disarm unilaterally. Every company I have advertises on Meta and I hate them because guess what? I like me more than I like my principles. Is that? Anyways. That's accurate. That's accurate. Look, you have an obligation as a brand manager to within legal confines to get your brand out there. It's easy to be a purist when it's other people's money. So brands have an obligation to build shareholder value. But when you have one company that has two-thirds market share, one company has 93 % share of search, these aren't companies.

47:05They're taxes. The greatest tax cut in history would be a thaw in the relations between China and the U.S. The second biggest tax cut in corporate history would be if we broke up Alphabet and Meta such that there were more people bidding for your brand's precious dollars. Right now, you have no choice. In addition to actual economic costs, the costs have skyrocketed on parents. Because we have no choice. Our kids have no choice. If there was a choice of a brand safe social media platform that didn't send tips on how to get to 90 pounds to a 5 '7", 16-year-old woman, advertisers would decide to advertise there.

47:47But they don't have that option. So antitrust right now theory is based on economic costs. And they're having a tough time establishing that precedence. But if they incorporated the costs on parents, on our self-esteem, I mean, in sum, the cost of these platforms has skyrocketed for us, for parents, for teens. It's just they're not economic. But we absolutely need more options. It's similar to cigarettes. They advertised and it was the advertiser's fault or the cigarette's fault. And eventually the government just came in and said, no more cartoons and label the things. That's all that. That's what has to happen.

48:27You can't put it on these private companies. Next. Hey, thanks for the great show. My name is Angela Hoover and I'm working on an AI search engine. And I found the conversation really interesting because you guys touched on a couple of things. You touched on surveillance capitalism, AI misinformation, and what it's going to take with regulation to disrupt Google. And I just want to get your guys' thoughts on that. What it's going to take to specifically? Yeah, like one of the things that we've realized is that Google's an ad tech company, not a search company. And so kind of my question is, what do you guys think of misinformation and AI answers?

49:05And do you think that there can be like another economic model for the web that's not based on advertising? I think this is something Sam talks about, like, because it's a subscription service. That's always better. You know, one of the things that Steve Jobs and one of the interviews I did with him toward the end of his life is he hated social media. Not because he wasn't in it. They tried to do it with Ping and it was a disaster. You don't remember. It's good. They shouldn't have done it. But one of the things he said is the business plan suggests real problems in society. He did. It wasn't because he was selling plenty of iPhones.

49:35It was he just was selling them specifically. So he hated the whole business model because he said it led to things like this. And he talked about this. It's going to lead to misinformation. This was 15 years ago we talked about this before he died. And I do think there's lots of business plans. There's tons of creative ways to do it that doesn't rely on advertising. The biggest thing that happened is Google was search, okay? You search it. You get it. It's speed. It's not virality. Excuse me. It's speed, context, and accuracy. when they moved it to social media, it became virality, speed, and engagement.

50:10And as I've said over and over again, I wrote in the book, engagement equals enragement. And it just does. It's just the way it is. It's like casinos are there because we want to stay there and because they keep us there. It's also addictive. And so there's all kinds of new business. This is an opportunity for new kinds of business plans that don't hook us on cigarettes, you know, and that we say thank you for it as we die from it. That's the kind of thing, Scott. The analog I would use for the search wars or the emerging search wars, the traditional versus the AI-driven search, is retail. And that is, you had the Walmarts, everything, massive selection at a low price, really well done.

50:50And then it moved to the greatest shareholder creation, value creation, even though it never got to the revenue size, was specialty retail that said, we're not going to give you 80 toasters or 3 ,000 answers. We have someone more talented than you with better taste who's going to pick the best two toasters, an Electrolux and a Duelette, right? Love kitchen appliances. So that's what AI is. AI says, we're not going to give you every choice. We're going to do our best to give you the best one decision. And there will be a market for that. It will have more shareholder value in the short run as specialty retail did, but Walmart will still be there.

51:25I think traditional search will still be a great business. What'll be interesting is to see if you have the empire strikes back with Alphabet, which is now trading at a lower PE multiple than the S &P and is the only one of the Magnificent Seven that's trading at a lower multiple. Because as we discussed last year, literally overnight, Alphabet has gone from hero to goat. They look flat-footed. But I think that there's going to be room for both would be my guess. Yeah, absolutely. And it can. We can pick. We can pick the two things. Right here. Hi, I'm Rick Cutter working on a climate change documentary about the mood to renewable energy.

51:59President Biden's done some great things for us the last three years, moving us in the right direction. Donald Trump's obviously going to win the Republican nomination. I expect he'll take us out of Paris court day one or two. What are your thoughts? What are we going to do to mitigate that? He's not going to win. I hope you're right. Presumably. I am. Look, I know all the polls. I think he's going to get beaten like a drum. I think women in this country have fucking had it with this fella. And I think they're not saying it out loud. I have a lot of Trump supporting relatives. And quietly, the men are like, Trump, he says it like it is.

52:36I'm like, oh, God. All right, fine. And all the women. All of us say that, just so you know. Yeah. All of us. Not all of us. I'm talking to my Trump relatives. And all the women quietly just like, that fucking asshole. Like, really, I'm telling you. So that's how it did. He's going to pull us out of it. You're right. That's correct. That's what he's going to do. and we'll have to vote them out. I don't know what else to say. This is not going to be settled by courts. It's not going to be said as much as you might like it. And you're waiting for this story to finally, you know, we're waiting for into John Gotti, this guy.

53:07He's not going to be got. He's going to have, we're going to have to have the voters do it. And therefore you're going to have to stop bellyaching about like everything and just vote, like organize, organize, organize. That's really it. And stop with the young people don't vote. Make them vote. I told my sons if they didn't vote, they're not going to college next year. So that's my thing. They're going to vote, though. Scott? Perfect. All right, over here. Hey, my name is Ray McCarthy-Bergeron. I work in innovation and audience engagement. Listen to you guys. Look forward to your podcast every week.

53:39We do, too. Don't we? Yeah, I do. We do. I heard someone in the audience last night, and they were like, oh, my God, there's only people on the podcast that make me laugh. And I'm like, yeah, I concur. So Amy Webb, who you're probably aware of, she does her digital trends reports, and she just released that this morning. And she talked about tech messiahs. And, you know, Scott, I know you have opinions as well as Kara. She talked about what? Tech messiahs. Tech messiahs. Oh, thank you. You know, like these people are going to save the world. Yeah, yeah. Must be your favorite. And that's basically what she's saying.

54:10We don't need saving. But what she did say is we do need accountability. Scott, I know you talked about perp walks, but let me get through this question. All right, quick, because you want to get to one or two. Currently, we are incentivized in a capitalist society to basically pump out as many products as possible without the accountability considered. So I have a big question of how can we ever build an incentive that is going to build accountability for these companies prior to releasing products? And could that ever exist? We have models. I'd like to inside trade. I'd like to be an insider trader.

54:44I get access to insider information every once in a while. I would love to trade on it and buy a Gulfstream 650 ER. But guess what? The likelihood I get caught times the penalty is greater than the potential upside. So you know what? I don't engage in insider trading. We have bottles for this everywhere. It's the algebra of deterrence. Algebra of deterrence, simple. Likelihood of getting caught times the penalty has to be greater than the upside. And the algebra of deterrence has been flipped on its head in tech because the fines, right? There's no criminal prosecution. There's civil cases. And the fines are - And they can't be sued, most of them.

55:20The fines are perfect, except they lack a zero. That$5 billion fine against Metta for violating the consent decree was perfect, but it should have been$50 billion. And I use this analogy over and over and over. If you had a parking meter in front of your house that costs$100 every 15 minutes, but the parking ticket was 25 cents, you would break the law. The algebra of deterrence is not in place here. The fines need to be bigger. And I come back to this. This is an emotional argument. But when you have platforms that in an effort to grow their shareholder value massively, which they're great at, don't put in place the safeguards such that an algorithm picks up on a girl's suicidal ideation in the UK.

56:01And there's pictures of nooses, pills, and razors. And that kid is gone the next morning. Someone needs to go to fucking jail. Yep. And, you know, we're on time for two more quick questions. But, you know, who's gone to jail? The blood lady and the weird crypto guy. That's who's going to jail and nobody else. So, I mean, they may deserve it. But honestly, seriously. I mean, really. I enjoy the movies about her. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm Brad. Very quick. Yeah. First off, of course, thank you, Kyra and Scott. You're welcome. First time, long time. Actually, I first heard Scott on Recode. Also because Scott, I...

56:39That's where I found him and made him. And he owes me. I noticed it was a good brand right away. It's so nice to rejuvenate a flailing career. Yeah. It's very, I'm Tina Fey to her. You know, you're welcome would be fine. You're welcome. I am Tina Fey to your Alec Baldwin. Thank you and you're welcome. Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. Thank you, Kara. That's the answer. Meet me at the Four Seasons Later. Thank you. I'm used to that because I was a student of yours in fall of 16 at LAM. Oh, really? Yep. Well, my man, come up here. What are you doing? All right, come on. Two questions, quick ones. Is there a brand or brands that aren't in the zeitgeist now that you see in five years or so?

57:21And not necessarily a company, you know, because it could be a person or whatever that you think we'll be talking about. And then also during my time there, you had a couple pretty impressive guest speakers. And maybe you have since I've been there, but have you thought about or have you invited Cara as a guest speaker? Inviting Cara. As a guest speaker at NYU. Are you a professor there? I don't think you are. I've been there more than you. My son goes there, but go ahead. We speak in a great, anyway. So the question was about brands. Brands, yeah, you answer that quick. So the two brands that I'm most excited about that I think will be global brands, and I think about it through the lens of shareholder value.

57:57I mean, we've been talking, my rap has been forever that it's the brand era. It's no longer the brand era, it's the supply chain era. And I think the two brands we're gonna hear a lot about in the next three to six months, because I think they're going to have incredible IPOs that will thaw. They'll be the icebreakers, I think, of what in the last half of this year will be kind of a reigniting of the IPO market. Our one, Reddit. I think Reddit is the third most traffic site in America. One and two, Alphabet. Alphabet meta, number four is Amazon. What? 1.2 trillion, 1.7 trillion, 1.8 trillion. And Reddit's going out at 6.5 billion.

58:38So I think Reddit's just pop. It's going to get a ton of global attention. And the company you probably haven't heard of, Shein, is the most interesting supply chain company. What's the laughing? No, they don't like Shein. Sorry, folks. This brand is going to be a global brand. $30 billion last year,$45 billion this year. You've lost the crowd right there. I don't know. Do a little bit. I like Taylor Swift. Anyways. I'm going to save you. All right. I'd stop right now. He likes Sheehan. That's the way it's going to be people. Sorry. I don't like everything about him either. Okay. Right here. Very quickly.

59:18Okay. Hi, my name is Carmen. I'm literally beaten into submission. I know I did, but I'm saving you before they attack you and eat you for barbecue, but go ahead. Hi, I'm Carmen. I love y 'all and listen to you falling asleep, whatever. That's kind of weird, but I do it. And my question is about the way that you guys communicate with each other, actually. It's very respectful, but you find ways to disagree with each other in a very poignant way. I would love to know what the tips and tricks are to do that in a professional and personal setting with the elections coming up. I would love to know how to tell somebody to fuck off respectfully.

59:54yeah um answer very briefly we're going to answer the last question for you too because we're just going to keep you here go ahead i like you i have affection for i want to set her up for success i'm i i did why are you laughing that's the truth we have a good thing going we enjoy each other's company. We're friends. I learned a lot from her in terms of parenting. And I want to do... Look, everyone has a role. We go after social media platforms and tech executives and we try and shame them. I'm constantly shitposting our government for being too old and feckless. But something I recognized two or three years ago was that I needed to play a role in taking the volume down.

1:00:43And as you get older and you have kids and hopefully you get a little bit the more empathetic. What you recognize is that, you know, you ask yourself, are you part of the problem? I used to be on that guy on Twitter that was waiting for someone to say something stupid so I could weigh in and be like the grandmaster of fucking Guardians of Gotcha and get a ton of likes. I was playing to the algorithm. And then I thought, do you really need to respond to every slight? Do you need to speed up and honk back at a guy who cuts you off? You don't know what's going on. So I think in general, I'm trying to turn the volume down But this is easy for me because I have great affection for Kara and the relationships here.

1:01:21I've been very positive. So in my regard, I think it's been the most important part of the show. Honestly, everyone, you know, not just the chemistry. You had it since the beginning. And he's very different than Walt Mossberg, I can tell you. But with a very different relationship. But I think people want to understand. We have a lot of couples listening to us. You know, I think our Esther Perel interview is really mostly for him because I thought he was much more revelatory about his emotions. because he is. He's an open wound in that regard. But I think that's a compliment. That's a compliment.

1:01:52It's a compliment. Oh, stop it. That's good. Thank you. You keep practicing that. I think people want to disagree and still like each other. People are desperate for it. We're being played by the noisiest members of our society, our noisy and unhappy people, joyless. And we really, we learn from each other. We change each other's minds all the time. And it's so, and like when he says something dumber I do, we don't kill each other over it. We point it out, but we give everyone else permission not to be so mad at someone you disagree with. But hold on, I never get angry at you. You text me at like two in the morning.

1:02:27That is true because you've done something stupid and I want to make sure you're okay. Just like a second ago that I saved your ass. Okay. It's a really good thing. I think that's the heart of it is that people learn to get along. And again, a lot of people who have earned couples and not just romantic couples, but work couples. And by the way, we've never, there's not an ounce of romance here.

1:02:49What's less than not an ounce? But I think people really want to get along. That's why I think Trump's not going to win because we're sick of this shit. But go ahead. Go ahead. Thank you for the question. Thank you. Thank you so much for the show. My name's Maeda. I actually just graduated from NYU last year. Congratulations. Thank you. Undergrad? Sorry? Undergrad? Undergrad. Yeah, I was in CAS. Stern minor though. Nice. Anyway, I host a podcast about computer science education. And so something that I think and talk a lot about with my guests is how the government needs to change in response to things like crypto and Gen.

1:03:25And you talked a little bit about this, but in an ideal state in the next five to 10 years, how do you see the government changing to actually be effective when it comes to tech regulation? younger, younger legislators, like I'm sorry, someone like Mike Gallagher's leaving, but there's all kinds of really great legislators who are really smart all across the country. Our legislators, it's not an age thing. It's an experience. It's just, we need and the deleterious effects of tech money on this legislation. We've got to do something about that. We've got to somehow, they have so much money. It's, it's really crazy.

1:03:59And they're going to deploy it. I'm not angry at them for it. That's their job. But we have to really push it back from the deleterious effects of lobbying. Ranked choice voting, de-gerrymander the district, send more final five, send more moderates who get along with each other, national service. We all serve in the same uniform and want to work together and see ourselves as Americans before anything else. And then pay our elected representatives between one and$3 million a year. So they're not total whores to private industry after they leave office. I like that. That's interesting. You've never said that.

1:04:30I like that. that's a great idea you're really smart always end on a positive note Scott you're fantastic you know how's are you sweetheart all right so

1:04:47so thanks for your questions thanks for your questions if you got a question of your own that you'd like answered send it our way go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more Pivot. Now, Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mille Severio, Michelle Berg, and Sky Rubel. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

1:05:22Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you, Texas. Thank you, Texas.