Trump Arrest Fallout

23:08Nobody is. Nobody's coming around saying, actually, I changed my mind about, you know, the man who allegedly paid off a porn star and, you know, committed campaign finance violations. So he's been through a lot of that. People sort of have porn star baked into Donald Trump, don't they? I mean, they've accepted it. I mean, that's that's the fascinating thing is the deal with the devil that was made back in 2016 for a lot of Republican voters. You accepted it then you decided, you know, I'm these things are probably true. I'm OK with it. I'm going to take that bargain. So then it's hard to to, I guess, for many of these people to feign outrage now.

23:42So now a majority of Americans support the indictment after a search of Mar-a-Lago. Trump back candidates didn't fare so well in the midterms. outside the courthouse, Marjorie Taylor Greene and George Santos tried to speak at a sparsely attended rally, driven out. So it's kind of a mixed bag. There's also things behind this indictment, Georgia, the possible federal one. There's a case in New York, the rape case, essentially. So does this build up or does it just do people keep calling it political when it may not be? So my fear, I've been a bit concerned with this indictment coming down first.

24:18It's my perspective as a non-attorney, more as a communications person who thinks about the court of public opinion, that it is the weakest of the cases. And I say that because it is seven years old. Cy Vance chose not to take it up. Although he says he would have had bar. Anyway, it's complicated. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, there's, and listen. He couldn't take it up. He couldn't take it up. And then, you know, even this next hearing being scheduled for December 4th, so eight months from now, I think that there's a lot of folks who are going to hear that and they're going to be like, this doesn't seem like, you know, justice should move swiftly.

24:50It's not. This is going to drag on into, you know, the middle of a primary season. I was February 5th. And then if that's a hearing, the trial could be, you know, mid-late next year. So I think most people don't think this is going to be Trump's, you know, undoing. But what is coming could be. I've sat down with the Department of Justice in the January 6th investigation. They're pulling a lot of important threads there, and it seems like they're moving quickly. The Mar-a-Lago investigation, the documents, I mean, this is incredibly important. These are national security secrets. Had I walked out of the Pentagon or the White House with any one document marked, you know, TSSCI, I'd be in federal prison right now.

25:29And then I think Fulton County is very interesting. This is, you know, the infamous, I need just 11 ,000 votes. So there's more coming for him. I do worry about indictment fatigue with the American public, but he knows this is the beginning, not the end of. And so when you say indictment fatigue, although it could be like, oh, it's this guy got indicted again. Like to me, the weak one coming first is actually stronger because then the next ones get bad. Like then they become more and more. Or you could say maybe they're just out to get them. Right. That's the tack they're taking. Yeah. My fear is the latter.

26:01If I was still if I had my hyper partisan Republican hat on, I would say, you know, why are they waiting until right before the primary season to have the next hearing? Well, he wants that, too. He wants it. He could have asked for it to be expedited, but he didn't. He could have. And listen, Trump is actually, one of his talents is the ability to spend very negative things in his favor. And I think his campaign is going to be on overdrive to frame this as political and as a witch hunt. And they're going to use this to try to undermine the other, in my opinion, much more serious investigations.

26:32I see. So if you were working for him, I'm going to put you on the spot. What would you put your Trump hat back on? What would you do to defend him? What would be the messaging you would use? You go after the DA, of course, let me be very clear, not in the horrific way that he has, which is highlighting his family and his daughter. That is just outright intimidation. You talk about the fact, you know, New York City, we do have growing crime here. This is a DA who's downgraded a number of misdemeanors from from felonies to misdemeanors, including, you know, trespassing, marijuana offenses. So this is a guy who doesn't want to be tough on the actual crime that affects people, but is coming after someone over campaign finance.

27:12That's a New York argument. That's a New York. I mean, listen, nationally, he's going to pull the witch hunt. It's a liberal DA. They've been trying to come after me since 2016. Soros, Soros. Yeah, with all the anti-Semitic undertones of the ongoing Soros attacks. And that's effective or just what they're going to do? Would you advise that or is there some other thing, novel thing you would say? It's hard because I'm so emotionally invested in being held accountable. I think he does need to try to frame it as partisan. I think that's the only thing that breaks through with people who the general average American who actually believes in the legal system.

27:51I don't like when it's, you know, he's had something, you know, truth social now, something about defunding the Department of Justice. That stuff doesn't play. Most Americans generally trust cops, law enforcement. And so I think you try to knock away at the credentials of the district attorney. All right. On the other side, what's the way to fight it? You criminal? You fucking criminal. The most simple thing is, you know, Michael Cohen did time for this. If Michael Cohen's going to get locked up for it, then Donald Trump is. No one is above the law. Minor offenses, if a court of law, you know, a grand jury of his peers decides to convict him, then he needs to serve just the way anyone else would.

28:33So smoke fire, like, you know, that kind of thing. And this guy keeps piling on the, you know, enough is enough would be, would seem to me. Is that worth? Is that right? Because there is a weariness of Trump himself. There is. I think, listen, Trump does himself no favors. I mean, talk about the worst client for any attorney. Or PR person. Or PR person. But part of why the arraignment dragged on for so long, the actual proceeding in the courtroom, was because the judge took a moment to, you know, kind of encourage him to not be engaging in rhetoric that could amount to, you know, incite violence and other things.

29:08And then he went on to attack Alvin Bragg and his family, as well as the judge. So I think he's going to make plenty of missteps that reveal his character and his rage that I think will influence people's opinion quite a bit. Opinion, but not necessarily an actual case. Now, if he is convicted, should he be banned? Speaking of banning, banning TikTok, should he be banned from office? Now, legally, he'll still be allowed to serve, but should he be? So I think if it's a federal crime, yes. I think if you're, you know, if you're convicted of a federal crime, especially these two, both the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation and January 6th.

29:46So January 6th, if they're able to, you know, make the case, which I think is there, that he incited a violent mob to attack the Capitol and try to halt the democratic process, that should preclude someone from ever holding office again, hands down. And then on the Mar-a-Lago case, I mean, part of this is trying to try him under the Espionage Act. Mishandling of classified secrets is not a small offense in any sense of the word. He has no way of being able to claim that those documents couldn't have gotten in the wrong hands. Just the chain of custody alone, them being moved, you know, there was a lock in the door, there wasn't.

30:22You've been there. You've been to Mar-a-Lago. Yeah. Do you like it? It is the tackiest country club I've ever stepped in. It's got to be your thing. It's got to be your thing. It's pretty, but it's a weird place. Yeah, yeah. It's right on there on the intercoastal. It's very pretty. Where it is, it's very pretty. It's very beautiful. But, you know, a lot of Palm Beach is like that. You're like, really, people? What are you doing down here? But they like it. They like it. I shouldn't judge. I am judging really hard. I know. I feel bad. I really don't judge. That's OK. It's all right. So one of the things that you mentioned is he brought a lot of people along with him.

30:55So why is the conservative having such a hard breaking up with him? He doesn't win elections. Trump-backed candidates lost competitive races in 2022, including Dr. Oz. They just lost these. We'll talk about the ones they lost yesterday. Trump-backed candidates didn't fare well in 2018. His candidates lost two special elections in Georgia. Of course, he lost 2020. He has the legal problems. He's got, you know, the civil suit, Nat Worth, two lawsuits, as I said, by E. Jean Carroll, accusing him of rape and defamation. Why? What? I know. We just can't quit him. I know. No, it's a fear factor. So on a more individual level, he has the ability to destroy any Republican politician's career if he decides to turn on them.

31:37He does have that hold on the base. But then more broadly for the party, the fear is that if it's not him, he'll burn the whole thing to the ground. The problem with Donald Trump, and I think my friend George Conway would agree with this, is he's going to burn it down anyway, whether he intends to or not. And to rip off the Band-Aid is the only way to deal with him. The folks who want to have one foot in Trump world and, you know, kind of appeal to him, think that they're going to keep his base on board, but then keep one foot in the world of people like me. It doesn't work. It didn't work for, you know, my friend and old boss, Mike Pence.

32:11I see Nikki Haley, who there's a lot I really like about her. It's not working. You've got it. I would rather go down in a blaze of glory, polling at 2 percent, saying the right thing and calling him out than, you know, just help glide him to the presidency again. So people said there isn't anyone to do that. No one that someone there's a real opening to do that. But nobody capable of doing it. I think the probably the most capable person, but I don't know that I think he's going to get in would be Governor Chris Tanunu of New Hampshire. Mostly because he's just he's not he's not brash, but he can't throw a punch.

32:48He has his own record to run on. And unlike many of the candidates we assume are going to get in the announced ones, he never worked for Trump. So he's got his own thing to run on. He's, you know, a popular governor in a purple state. But he seems to be chomping at the bit to go after both DeSantis and Trump. He's got some ideologically different views than DeSantis like I do. I just don't know that he gets in because he's also a young, highly popular governor. He could coast and wait till another cycle to run. But trust me, I'm waiting for someone to be the hero. Right. Nobody is. All right. We'll take a quick break.

33:20We come back. We'll talk about how Trump's rivals could use this moment and more about the media fallout.

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35:49Alyssa, we're back with more on the fallout from Donald Trump's arrest. Let's talk about the media coverage. Trump thrives on it, good or bad. We saw Tuesday networks gave this wall-to-wall treatment. It was ridiculous at one point. Like now the car, the car, the doors, there's going to be doors. They could open in this door and this door. They made a joke of it on late night television. Talk about the media coverage without making him into the legend. How do you cover a narcissist without feeding his ego? because literally it was back. I felt like I was back in 2016 again. It really did. It actually, I mean, honestly, parts of it remind me of OJ, like we have the aerial shots of the motorcade and the plane landing.

36:25It's a tough balance and I don't always know the answer because there's such a vital public interest there. Like I found myself, I mean, I was sitting on set for most of it at CNN on a panel just watching and I couldn't take my eyes off of what's going to happen next. The unpredictability of Trump is excellent TV, But Rachel Maddow went on a really interesting rant where she essentially said, you know, she's not going to cover Trump's full speech. There's no news value in it. It's the same airing of grievances. And I think there has to be a balance of that. This is a conversation we constantly have at CNN.

36:56Yeah, because he's good for ratings, right? Well, he's good for ratings. People want to know. They want to see. But how do you not just boost his public persona the way that many in the media did in 2016? And I don't know where that fine line exists. Yes. But of course, you guys had wall to wall coverage, right? You were on. CNN cut out of the speech, which I definitely think was the right call. And simply because there I mean, a he's impossible to fact check. We did. We aired a fact check afterward that wasn't even able to get to all of the untruths that he shared. But it is it was a historic day.

37:32So I do tend to think that you've got to show it, but contextualize it. And I really just shout out to some of my the legal analysts at CNN, Ellie Honig, you know, somebody who was able to offer insight of what this meant, why it mattered throughout the contextualizing and the fact checking is key. And except it's then about him. But I want to play a clip from Fox News, actually. I won't set this up too much. So let's listen. So the government has a very, very strong case. And what is the crime here is the use of funds which were told under oath to the federal government that they were legitimate campaign funds in order to pay off someone, his mistress, to remain silent.

38:07And he conspired with others, the people who contributed the money. So he's facing two five-year charges. The guilt, the evidence of guilt on both is overwhelming. It is an incredible fall from grace for John Edwards. Sounds familiar, right? So that's Judge Andrew Neapolitano. This is 2011 discussing indictment of John Edwards, which people are comparing it to. Now, of course, they were against John Edwards. The Republicans were. Didn't really work in general. He managed to prove that he was doing it to protect his wife who was dying. Trump has tried the Melania defense. It's not quite as strong here.

38:41When you look at stuff like this, this is the equalization. Is that PR thing to do? Is equalization then brings down the argument of the other side, presumably? I think so. I saw a lot of folks invoking the John Edwards example. And he did ultimately get off. His political career was over, though. His political career was over. And he was somebody who also never had that, you know, the staying power that Donald Trump does and, you know, being a former president. My concern there, though, is everything with him defies norms. This goes further. Like, and I just keep saying this is the least relatable crime, like paying off a porn star hush money to try to, you know, hide from both your wife but the American public.

39:23And I do think it's one of those areas where your mind's made up about it, though. You either have decided you're not with Trump or you've decided this is a witch hunt. And I'm not sure I see this changing a whole lot of hearts and minds. Can I ask you, Kara, though? What do you think about the media coverage? I think it's been terrible. I think it's been terrible. I have to say, once again, it's the same old, same old. And they're just following the cars and the doors. I was sort of like, you're kidding me. We're watching his motorcade? Right. Why? Him getting there? Like it was strange. And then it creates, because they want to create a sense, I know what they're doing.

39:56They're creating a sense of tension. And here it comes. It's like a Law and Order episode. But it's not a Law and Order episode, you know. And so it just was, he coming out door. Some of the coverage was, this is what's happening. And that's absolutely news. It's a historic event. It is, because he's the first president to be criminally indicted. And so that was important. But all the rest around it and the endless chit-chattery was really, I think, untoward. I think it's just plays right into I don't know if it'll get him elected, but it plays into this weird relationship that that the United States has with this man.

40:29And I think that's what it really is. It's not just Republicans. It's everybody has. They can't quit him. And and so that was the media can't quit him. And of course, there is financial benefit from it. There just of course. They're just they said it out loud a couple of years ago, but now they don't say it out loud. No, it's undoubtedly a factor in, you know, the$10 million that he's raised. I mean, he got close to that and earned media coverage in the past couple of days. A hundred percent. And so, you know, whatever. It's just we're not talking about other things. And speaking of other things, how should presidential hopefuls, say you work for them, manage this moment?

41:03On the Republican side, declared Nikki Haley and Asa Hutchinson. How would you handle it? You don't beat Trump by not taking him on directly. Hands down. Listen, if you can see the Grateful Dead, you're not going to go see a Grateful Dead cover ban. So the kind of running as many Trumps, as I would say Ron DeSantis is, people are going to want the original if that's what they're looking for. So you need to identify the voters who aren't looking for that and offer them something different. I briefly got excited about Nikki Haley. I liked her as governor. I really liked her as U.N. ambassador. But it's like she's running a traditional Republican campaign and ignoring the fact that the front runner is Donald J.

41:44Trump, a man who defies every norm and takes up all the oxygen in the room. DeSantis is trying to outstunt him, even though he's an undeclared, you know, candidate. And, you know, Asa's, it's interesting. I applaud him for at least being willing to say Trump is unfit for office and he wouldn't support him. That's going where few elected Republicans or former in his case will go. I have a hard time seeing how he could ever get significant steam. I would, I'm holding out for, you know, some kind of a dream scenario where someone gets in and says, I want to, I want to go toe to toe with him on a debate stage.

42:16But at this point, it almost feels like people are running to be as VP than running against him. Yes, that's true. So you have DeSantis is the cover band, presumably. Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo, who may or may not run now, apparently. Absolutely. And well, and the thing there that, and you know, I worked for Pence, I think, highly of him. I'll always be grateful for his heroism on January 6th. But he and Pompeo were in the same boat and to a lesser degree, Nikki Haley, where it's hard to run against someone who you served under and where a lot of the things you want to tower from their administration.

42:49I do give quick props to Mike Pompeo, though. I'm really disturbed by some of this anti-Ukraine sentiment that's ginning up on the right. You know, we shouldn't be supporting them. It actually goes further, but I'm not even going to echo the pro-Putin propaganda. And he made a point to go to Ukraine and to express his unwavering support. So it's a good juxtaposition, but it's not direct enough and it's not going to break through. Okay, what about Joe Biden? What should he do? What should Joe Biden do? Just nothing? Say, get a load of this guy. I think he won by saying, get a load of this guy a lot, right?

43:21Well, okay, I'm going to say what he should do, which isn't going to happen. If, and my apologies to my friends in the Joe Biden White House, if he decided not to run for re-election, he would go down in history as one of the most consequential presidents in the 21st century. He became that stopgap that we needed at a time where our nation was helplessly divided. He has a legislative record that Democrats can be proud of and some big bipartisan wins, chips, infrastructure, I should say. I think that would be powerful. And knowing when to pass the baton is, you know, a lost art in American politics.

43:55I don't think that's going to happen. Washington did it and he did really well for doing it. That is true. He's comed down. We've emulated it. Yes. No, nobody's emulated it. Just him. That was him the last time they did it. So he should step aside and then get out of the way for a much more vibrant candidate. That's my sense. The problem is the Democrats have a strong bench for, let's say, four years from now. I don't know that they have a strong one right now. Like Westmore in Maryland is incredible. They've got some of these rising stars. I don't know that they have the heir apparent. Respectfully, I do not think it's Vice President Harris.

44:29Many people don't think that. Yeah, she's just struggled to get a real policy portfolio and wins on the books. And I actually expected her to be a lot more formidable than I observed she has been since being VP. Not Newsom? So I'd be curious, your thoughts on this. I'm not sure I think Democrats can elect a wealthy cis white male in this era. Biden's an exception because he was Obama's VP. And he's so popular in somewhere like South Carolina. But I don't know that the progressive left gets behind Nusa. I don't know. I don't know. It's interesting. He's super aggressive. I like what he's doing in terms of aggression, you know, and sort of he's making a name for himself in that regard.

45:11And he does run the state that's bigger than most countries. Right. So it's not like he doesn't have the experience. And, you know, handsome, tall man. That never hurts. You know, I hate to say it, but that's you look at that's who Trump is tall. People don't realize Obama was very tall. You know, then there's Mitch Landrow down in Louisiana. That's another person. I actually love him. I saw him speak once. He's hilarious. He's a Biden. He's a Joe Biden type of person. Like people love him down there. Well, and you know who I my money was on a Buddha judge, like Buddha judge running. But he's had such a there's so many, you know, infrastructure related.

45:44Yeah, probably transportation related issues. Not his fault, but still his fault. So that's the problem. Exactly. You own it if that's your title. All right. So the last one would be Joe Lieberman and Joe Manchin involved in the group No Labels. They raised$70 million from undisclosed donors. Could Republicans like you go over there or more centrist Democrats move over there who are irritated by the far left? I would love to see a vibrant third party, but the problem is what it does is it tends, it would, it's going to boost one side or the other. And I think that the fear factor, you know, Liz Cheney's talked about this before, is you run somebody to the middle and you actually risk taking more votes from Joe Biden and boosting, you know, candidate Donald Trump to the nomination.

46:29I don't think we're in a place where a third party does much beyond raise a lot of money and create headaches for the existing parties without actually having a path to victory. But what I would say is this. Well, that's what Pat Buchanan did back when, if you remember. That is so. Yeah. That's what he did. Good throwback to Pat Buchanan. I have never forgotten Pat Buchanan. Well, but I do think our primary system is doing such a disservice to the country in both parties. You especially in the right. I mean, we nominate the least electable person in a general election. But someone like a Manchin in a general, I bet could get 60 percent of the country.

47:07I could vote for Joe Manchin. There's things I disagree with him on, but I could vote for him. You'd have a ton of Republicans who'd be willing to vote, especially if it's him against a Trump. But he'd never get through a Democratic primary. Yeah. Could have to be a third party run. So I'm going to push you one more time. If it's if it's Joe Biden, what would you do if you were him? OK, he's not going to resign, say he decides he's fit as a fiddle. What would what would be his message? He's got legislative achievements to run on, but he's got to do that. I'm the president for all Americans. I actually thought his inauguration was extremely powerful.

47:36What he said, I, as a Republican, have seen a little less of trying to reach the Republican side or the middle since he's been in office. But I think reminding folks of there are certain American values that are more important than partisan politics. Our democracy being number one. You know, in the alternative, assuming it is a Trump, which, hey, it may not be, but it's going to be Trump. The alternative is a threat to our underlying democratic values, to our institutions and to the future of the free world. You need to make it this time for choosing kind of moment. I think he's capable of doing it, but I mean, it's the age factor is not a small deal.

48:15And by the way, Donald Trump is old, too. They're both old. Yeah, they should have new ones for everyone. All right. One more question. The results in Wisconsin last week elected Democratic-backed Judge Janet Protisawitz for the state Supreme Court, giving the body a liberal majority for the first time in 15 years. It was the most expensive campaign for a state Supreme Court in U.S. history. It's an important one. The court is expected to rule on abortion rights. The newly elected judge made women's rights a focus of her campaign and won the endorsement of Planned Parenthood. She won by a lot.

48:42It wasn't a little. At roughly 11 percentage points. That is a big win. Many people, including a friend of Pivot, Rebecca Tracer, argues that abortion rights is a winning issue in these elections. You've seen it happen all over the place. You saw it in the midterms, possibly. And not just that. It was, I think, a surprise. Same thing in Chicago, the more progressive candidate one. That's not as much a surprise, I think, to most people, because it was a close election in that case. Law and order person versus a more progressive, socially expansive one. So what does Wisconsin mean if you're a Republican strategist?

49:13strategists? It's a huge deal, the loss. I mean, first and foremost, candidate quality matters. And once again, we ran someone so far to the right that they lacked the ability to have that statewide appeal. But there's, sorry to keep going back to him, there's a Trump factor to this. So in 20, I want to say 16 or 2017, Republicans held the Supreme Court in Wisconsin in a 5-2 majority, which was seen as insurmountable, that that would be a Republican-held Supreme Court for some time. They've now lost the court in two governors races. So this is a swing state, a very important one, by the way, electorally in a presidential election, that we are bleeding support in because of the kind of people that we're choosing to run.

49:58But there's also something more important about this race. So my apologies if you don't follow, like, far-right leaders, But Ali Alexander, this guy who was one of the January 6th organizers, and he's, you know, had to, he's under investigation for his role there. He posted something, I believe, on Parler that basically said the quiet part out loud after the results came in. He said, we lost the Wisconsin Supreme Court. I do not see a path to 270 in 2024. for. So what he means by that is the reason that MAGA people, Trump people want these Supreme Courts is they're getting ready to challenge the results of another election.

50:36And they want favorable courts that are going to weigh in in their favor and say, yep, we're giving this to Donald Trump. It's a big one for Democrats, unquestionably. And so they will be able to push abortion rights back to the front. But it's a winning issue. It seems to be a winning issue because they've taken it too far. Look at DeSantis in Florida, six weeks. I didn't know I was pregnant until seven, eight, nine weeks. Like, I don't remember, but it wasn't six weeks for sure. I think the midterms showed us that Republicans taking too extreme of an approach on abortion rights is an unequivocal loser.

51:12And I don't think that we've, I don't think we've properly measured the sentiment around it. I'd be curious, actually, as a Republican to get some real data on how Republicans feel on this issue post-Dobbs. Because I think in the Roe v. Wade era, it was easy to, you know, I'm Episcopalian, so it's easy to be culturally pro-life. You know, I'm against abortion. That's kind of what we were taught. But you said it knowing that it was a legal right that women were able to have. And that wasn't a discussion. If they so choose. It wasn't something that you were actually actively seeing being taken away in different states.

51:48Now that that's changed, I mean, I'm constantly hearing from Republican girlfriends who are saying, you know, I'm concerned about this. I think where the states should, I mean, I think where we should be as much closer to Europe, you know, we actually had much more liberal abortion laws under Roe than a lot of European countries do. But it's unequivocally going to be one of the most defining issues. Which they didn't think it would be in the election. Actually, Trump said that. That's one thing Trump said is, what are you doing? He was right on it. He was, and he probably understood it, given he probably knows a little bit about it.

52:20Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. But I think he did understand that this is one of the biggest issues, and it has a staying power that is not going away at any time soon. All right. When we get back, we're going to have you make a prediction. So one more quick break, and we'll be right back with Alyssa Farah.

52:44Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

53:12No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

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54:46Okay, Alyssa, you have to make a prediction. You can make a prediction. I have a depressing prediction. Okay, go ahead. I predict, since we're talking politics a lot today, I predict Donald Trump is going to get the Republican nomination. I also predict that Ron DeSantis is going to flame out in the next quarter. Not completely, but he's going to lose his number two kind of spot. And why? He's charmless. My feeling, charmless. Nixonian. Charmless. There's not a whole lot of personality there. I think you can't just live by, you know, govern by owning the libs. And I think that's kind of been his approach.

55:24He doesn't engage mainstream media, so he doesn't take a lot of tough questions that are required to be able to defend your positions. And some of the unforced errors, I mean, the mistake he made on Ukraine was incredible. You saw a ton of prominent Republicans coming out, and it looked amateur. That said, he has an incredibly strong team around him, and he's raised a lot of money. But I just, I don't think the there is there. Charmless. I find him charming. He's not like he's like, you know, when they said about Hillary, she's likable enough. He's not even likable enough. That's he's not likable.

55:56So who replaces him that if you I'm going to make you make that prediction more significant? You know, you know what? I think wait for Pence to get in. I think Pence is going to have a moment. I think he he does retail politics very well. So when he starts hitting Iowa, South Carolina, where which he's really going to prioritize, he likes to shake hands and kiss babies. He knows how to talk to Republican-based voters because he's actually a true conservative, you know, unlike someone like a Donald Trump. I think he'll have a moment. I, you know, I don't think it's enough to pull it off, but I see him going up in the polls once he's in.

56:29Anybody else? Stick out. I mean, I am just— Chris Christie. No. You know what? Hey, props to Chris Christie because he does want to take on Trump. But I think that moment would have been several years ago. So anybody else? Nobody else. So that's it. I'd like to say— I mean, listen, if Governor Sununu gets in, I think that could be a moment. And, you know, Tim Scott's testing the waters. I don't know. I really think the only person I see breaking through in a significant way would be Pence. Nikki Haley is going to be slow and steady. But I get the sense and I hope I'm wrong, but that she's running to be Trump's VP.

57:04I'm going to make you make one more prediction. I'm going to ask you VP of Trump. Is it Carrie Lake or the one from Kansas? The one from no, Iowa, the Iowa governor. Kim? So he, if it were up to him, it would be probably be Carrie Lake. But I do think smarter advisors, I think Susie Wiles, who's around him, is going to say it needs to be somebody who's going to appeal to moderates and to independents. That's where I actually think Nikki Haley is central casting. Woman of color, personal story, you know, former governor, UN ambassador. Kim Reynolds is good. I think Nikki Haley actually makes more sense and has more of a national profile.

57:42but his instinct is going to be like Carrie Lake or Marjorie Taylor Greene and his people are going to be like, no, no, no, no. It's got to be someone saying. Wouldn't that be a gift? Wouldn't that be a gift? Marjorie Taylor Greene. Any predictions on your end? No, I think he's not going to be the nominee. How about that? I love it. Let's put some money on it. Yes, let's put some money on it. A hundred bucks. I think he's... Let me just ask you, did you watch all The Apprentices like I did? I did for a while. I watched a few seasons. I watched all of them. Everyone. He has an ending. He gets tired.

58:17People get tired. You're like, oh, him again. I'm just telling you. I hope that series finale is coming for America. You know, if the right Republicans get to the primaries, it doesn't have to be just the craze. You know, you don't have to leave it to the crazies. If you want to take it back, you can move them to vote. I don't know. Who do you think might be able to step in? Sanuna. Yeah. Oh, good. I love to hear that. I was just in New Hampshire for a couple of weeks finishing my book. And I have to say they love him there. They love him. He's fantastic. I love him. He seems reasonable enough.

58:46He seems and he's interesting, actually, as opposed to I know you like Mitt Romney, but Mitt Romney is also not interesting. Yeah. You know. Well, and Sununu would be our first Lebanese president as a Lebanese American. I love it. OK. On that note, that's the show. Also, Pivot is nominated for a Webby Award and you need to vote for us. We'll put a link in the show notes. Anyway, thank you, Alyssa Farah Griffin. and we'll be sure to find you on The View. Well, thank you so much for having me. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel and Taylor Griffin, Ernie Endrodat, and Janineer this episode.

59:20Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

59:39Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:00:07No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:00:42Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.