Trump Bullies Allies, Powell Stays Put, and Kalshi Faces Criminal Charges

23:28Kara Swisher:It was easy to use before. It's easier to use and easier to charge. And I know some people are worried about that. You shouldn't be. Learn more at chevy.com slash Bolt 2.5 times faster charging with 150 kilowatt plus DC fast charging 2027 Bolt when compared to the 2023 Bolt, which is the one I think I have. Actual charge times will vary. See the owner's manual for details and limitations.

23:56Support for the show comes from Back Market. it. Listen, there's a lot of ads out there telling you to buy new products. I've actually found that buying a new car makes no sense. I've owned cars my whole life, raised in California, and I've bought a bunch of new cars and a bunch of used cars, and I think that, quite frankly, use is the way to go. And it's the same with tech products, but Backmarket is giving you the option to find sustainable tech products at a much more affordable rate. Backmarket offers a range of high-quality tech inspected and refurbished by professionals. It's all they do.

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25:08Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from MongoDB. If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, it's time to think outside the rows and columns. Because let's be honest, you didn't get to tech to babysit a broken database. You got into it to actually build something. MongoDB lets you do that. It's flexible, developer-first, asset-compliant, enterprise-ready, and built for the AI era. Say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code. Start innovating with MongoDB. There's a reason it's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500, and that's because it's a platform built by developers for developers.

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25:57Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news, and Meta is shutting down its VR metaverse on June 15th, and the legless people are gone. The VR social network Horizon Worlds never drew more than a couple hundred thousand active users a month. Some users reported that daily active users actually dropped to under a thousand. Who are those people? I want to meet those people. Over$70 billion was spent on the project over time. You have talked about this for a long time. I never liked the metaverse. So some breaking news that broke after the recording, Cara, we just learned that meta is not shutting down VR support for Horizon Worlds.

26:34That's according to an Instagram post from meta CTO Andrew Bosworth. He said there was, open quote, a lot of misinformation about the company's plans. We announced, hey, we're moving away from Horizon Worlds and VR. And the headline is that Horizon is dead. He said it's not. And likewise, VR is not dead. We're continuing to invest tremendously. This is weak sauce. We fucked up. Nana is on life support. And despite the fact she might have brainwaves, we're pulling the plug soon. This is, in my view, an attempt to backtrack and not totally freak out the remaining employees before they find them another job or lay them off.

27:11This is dead, in my view, and, you know, an attempt to, if you will, say, no, there's still hope when they believe, and every indication here is that this thing is maybe in hospice, but be clear, it's on the Green Mile. All right, enough of that. Let's move on.

27:35Kara Swisher:While the press was fawning over the idea, you were not impressed. Let's listen to a clip from 2021. I just love the fact that Mark Zuckerberg is showing up with literally the biggest fucking thud in history, and that's the Oculus. That's his vision for the metaverse. Now one from 2022. And so if he pulls it off, it'll be one of the most impressive feats in renewal, corporate, not even corporate renewal, but vision around maintaining growth that they pull it off. I don't think they're going to. I think this thing is already a giant flaming bag of shit. One from last year. I was the original hater of headsets and metaverse.

28:14And the idea of a bunch of cyborgs rocking around in their own world, even when they were outside, it was sort of anathema to like everything we should be doing.

28:23Kara Swisher:Nice call, Scott. Let me just say that. Second of all, I didn't like meta because the legless, it was weird. Remember when he introduced it, it was so weird and awkward at the time. One of the things that's astonishing here is that he could have this much of a loss and still, they're doing so well elsewhere that this$70 billion loss doesn't matter and he's feted while other people who have losses get slapped back. But this is such a failure. Please, please take a lap and conclude this chapter of Mark Zuckerberg's life for us. Care of the fact that$70 billion in capex got taken into a street and burned and that people didn't want to live on a legless future where they didn't want to be in a place where 40 % of them were within 20 minutes nauseous or that they further separate from Hume.

29:10I'm shocked, Kara. I'm shocked this didn't work. I had big hopes for it because anything Mark Zuckerberg is clearly right.

29:22I think the scariest thing about our economy, other than the income inequality, is the fact that we have now tied the fate of the S &P and the 10 % wealthiest households who control the economy now and government. We've tied it to our ability to evolve a new species of asocial, asexual males and some females. And the thing is, this is a healthy gag reflex for mammals. One, on a very instinctive level, it's very uncomfortable, especially for women, but for everybody, when you're walking on the sidewalk alone and you hear footsteps behind you or on the side of you. Because the things you can eat and the things that can eat you don't come straight at you.

30:05They have a habit of coming from behind you or from the side. And so your peripheral vision, and the reason why billboards on the highway are still a big business, is you notice shit in your peripheral vision. You're very subconsciously conscious of what's in your peripheral vision or what isn't. And when it's blocked with a headset, you feel uncomfortable. So they never spoke to an anthropologist to say, all right, what happens when we invented technology that from the moment they turn it on, it's like if you turned on your PC and it made you feel slightly nauseous just by turning it on.

30:38Kara Swisher:Remember all those, all of that stuff. Remember they showed it at CES years ago where you looked at a TV that was jumping out at you. It was sickening. And no one, and never, it was a big thing one year at CES and then it wasn't. Let me ask you, I'm going to ask you a more challenging question. All right, look, we're going to have immersive worlds, right, in some way. And some of it is kind of cool. I remember 20 years ago, Walt and I went to Korea and went to either Sony or LG. And we were looking at these headsets in movies. Pretty fucking cool. I remember thinking that and I wasn't nauseous.

31:09Kara Swisher:I went to the Sphere this week, which I loved. I saw the Dorothy thing and I thought it was wonderful. And we were all in a big room. And I have to say it was a lovely communal experience because everyone was laughing and they dropped some apples out of the sky and everything else. There is something, I want you to say what will work here because there is an immersive experience with screens that is very satisfying. What would you, if you were to pick a business in the immersive screens, either on your head or in a situation like the sphere, which I think is a spectacular achievement in a lot of ways.

31:45And it's also beautiful on the outside because it's delightful. What do you imagine that to be? I don't think there'll ever be big businesses, Cara. I think they're niche experiences. I think that our species has gotten really used to and comfortable with, as bad as it is, this world. So IMAX is an immersive experience, but it's never really lived up to the potential outline. It's good business, though. Yeah, it's been, quite frankly, over the last 40 years, it's been a shitty business. IMAX, relative to the cost, it's been okay. I love IMAX. Every time, that's what I do when I take my—I love seeing shit in IMAX.

32:22I'm going to see Project Hail Mary tomorrow night in IMAX. It's a niche business. The only place I want an immersive experience is when I'm having my teeth cleaned by a hot single mother, Brazilian single mother. And then she puts on a headset that I can watch, Heated Rivalry. Right. And then I start crying because I start thinking about my mom and I'm under the influence.

32:42Kara Swisher:I tell her when she says 1 to 10 nitrous, I go 12, baby. Can I tell you what I liked about, like, you're right, they're experiential things. One of the things that was cool about the Spheres, I have seen The Wizard of Oz a million times recently, too, because my little kids are now watching it. So it's not something I want to see again and again. But one of the things I thought was quite beautiful was the ability to see things in the movie that I never saw. Like some of the beautiful costumes, some of the beautiful, you know, set design. And oddly enough, the faces of all the people that weren't Dorothy, or the main characters.

33:17Kara Swisher:Like I found myself looking at these beautiful faces from another era, right? Like there was two twins there that I never noticed. And so one of the things I found, it wasn't just, everyone was like, oh, the tornado. And I was like, that was cool. But what was beautiful was I could really see things in a way that I, in a way I appreciated. So there is something valuable about immersive in some way, like travel, I suppose. Or when you go to a theme park and you get on one of those rides that you like, you know, you soar past the Golden Gate Bridge. I love all those things. Now, look, going into another world, you feel like an explorer.

33:54It's sensory overload. It's really exciting. And then you want out. Escape room is correctly named. You wouldn't want to live in this sphere. Your body can't handle that much sensory stimulation. And the sphere, by the way, similar to IMAX, an amazing product, it's not doing well economically. So the idea, or even the ultimate sensory experience, the ultimate moment of awe, supposedly, according to astronauts, is to go into space and see the world from another perspective. But guess what? What's the first thing they want to do after a week? Get home. They want to get home. Tulum. So what I think, I wish technology was more focused on, I hate this notion that we need to colonize Mars.

34:40No, the real genius here is someone who's going to make this place a little bit more fucking habitable. I'm in Tulum staring out at palm trees and coconuts and the sand, the sugary sand, and I'm in awe and I'm comfortable. And this is the only fucking universe I want to be in. Yeah, no, I know. I've never wanted to go to the space. Anyways, look, it's a disaster, Mark. You were wrong, and Scott was right. That's all I have to say. Speaking of scaling back, OpenAI is scaling back on projects and focusing on coding and business users. Pressure for the change comes from competitors like Anthropic, which you and I have been talking about dominating the business AI market.

35:15Employees also felt the company's do-everything strategy led to a lack of focus. Speaking of which, OpenAI delayed the launch of the adult mode, which would allow sexually explicit conversations due to concerns from advisors over mental health risks, you think. Also of concern, an age prediction system that has been misclassifying minors as adults 12 % of the time. The feature, which the company still plans to release eventually, would be text only.

35:38Kara Swisher:This is all the influence of Fiji Simo, who is the new top executive there. Very similar when Eric Schmidt came to Google. They were sort of chaotic and did everything, the two founders, Larry and Sergey. And then they brought Eric in to really clean it up. Seems sort of basic, this, you know, this executive. But they do have done, made like a million stupid announcements. And it does remind one of Google in that regard. Thoughts? You're exactly right. It's remember when Google was doing shit like trying to cure death. And then I feel like Eric brought in managerial competence and how to scale an organization.

36:14But Ruth Peratt showed up and said, all right, mom is home. Fun time's over. The dog's pregnant and the garage is on fire. I'm in charge now. And this is the right move for OpenAI. And that is, and by the way, and this will go to my prediction, Anthropic is not worth more than OpenAI. I don't care what the last mark is on preferred funding. But Anthropic has surged to$19 billion in annual recurring revenue from$14 billion just a couple weeks ago. $6 billion in ARR was added just in February. OpenAI ARR was$20 billion at the end of 2025. And here's the key. It's all about the enterprise because they're the only ones that are willing to make these huge investments.

36:57And get this, Cara, Anthropics enterprise market share has increased to 32%, surpassing OpenAI's 25%. And since 2023, enterprise AI revenue has exploded from$1.7 billion to$37 billion. Yeah, they've got to be. The OpenAI has really messed this up. And then the other staggering statistic here that is why OpenAI is focusing, which is the right thing to do, is Anthropic is now capturing three out of four new spending in enterprise AI. So they're getting 73 % of all spending among companies buying AI tools for the first time. And 10 weeks ago, the split with OpenAI was 50-50. So get this. Thank you.

37:47It was 60-40 in OpenAI's favor as recently as early December. So from December to now, it's gone from 60-40 to 27-73. So they are literally losing the enterprise market. So it's starting to feel like OpenAI is Netscape, not Google, right? That's an interesting analogy you've often said that. I was there when Google was the first bout of chaos was at the beginning. And there was, you know, there was a cover of Fortune magazine, Chaos at Google. And of course, Ruth also shut down all manner. They had so many ridiculous shit they were doing. And they could do it just like Mark with the metaverse because they had all this money.

38:28But it was like dumb. Like it was at the time when they would have you in. And I was always like, this seems dumb. Like, why are you doing this? Why don't you stick with your business? And they just wanted to be more creative or more something, more interesting in some fashion. But it's really interesting because this is at a time when I think, you know, Anthropik's been under pressure from the government. But in the end, they will soar and Pete Hegseth will be a, you know, a sad little footnote, a sad little drunken footnote in our history. Anyway, we'll see what happens. Speaking of something who won't be a footnote, I would say is Bob Iger's step down as Disney CEO again.

39:06Iger passed the baton to his successor, Josh DeMauro, at Disney's annual shareholder meeting this week. Tomorrow, a 28-year-old veteran of the company was most recently head of Disney Experiences, which includes parks, cruises, and resorts. Iger is set to stay on as an advisor and board member until the end of 2026. Not very long. It's unclear what he'll do after that. Before the last time he left, he did a bunch of advising and sailing around on a boat in the South Seas. Last time he retired, which I said he wasn't going to stay retired, I asked him whether he planned to get into politics. Let's listen to what he told me in 2022.

39:39Kara Swisher:Did you ever run for office? I'm not planning to run for office. Is that a no? That's just what I said. I'm not planning to run for office. Okay, all right, fine. I think you are. So last thing, you should. I don't usually do not tell another white guy, oh, please run for office. We don't have enough of you. But I think you'd be an excellent, because I think you'd be an excellent politician because I don't think you give a fuck. Anyway, I don't think he's going to run for office, actually. I can't imagine he's going to do that. But what do you think his next act will be? I mean, he certainly had his ups and downs, and the stock has not reflected much of it.

40:15Although I do think he did a lot around digital. I think he did a lot around streaming. I think he was a very good CEO for much of his tenure and not so good in other things. I think probably the Fox purchase is one people point to as being problematic. But in general, pretty good tenure, especially around streaming. I think that he made those moves. What do you think his next act should be? Hit the golf course and enjoy his life. And I would call challenge on his tenure, Kara, because the last 10 years have been the most prosperous in the history of the world for American companies. And his stock is below where it was 10 years ago.

40:51And at the end of the day, as the CEO, you're evaluated. That's your kind of metrics one, two, and three. He, quite frankly, he really fucked up. He's the guy who went to Vietnam, completed his tour honorably, came home with medals pinned to his chest. He could be a viable candidate for the Democratic nomination right now, but he's more, he looks less like Mark Cuban and more like Sheryl Sandberg. And that is his second tenure. First off, he was heckling from the cheap seats. He left and never really left the room, but convinced the board, as far as I can tell, to fire the new guy and put me back in like some returning hero.

41:25And he has had huge wins in his face. But Disney has become, Disney has gone from being probably the most iconic company in the creative community. To a certain extent, it represents what's happened to the creative community. And that is distinct of how incredible it is and their great IP and their great creativity. It's been bad for shareholders and it's probably been a difficult place to work the last 10 years. And he did make a lot of the right moves. He launched a streaming network. He invested in the parks. But at the end of the day, his last 10 years, there was never a clear succession path.

42:00He started to feel a little bit like, I forget the name of that guy at Citigroup, that anytime someone got near him, got shot in the head. So he leaves. He's very likable. He's very smooth. Had he stayed away and then just let someone else run with it, I think he'd probably be a cabinet member, maybe even by, you know, in the next administration at a minimum. Now he's the guy that, quite frankly, took Disney. He didn't take the stock anywhere. I get that. I understand. I think doing the streaming stuff was critical to its future, and he definitely pushed that through. Like, I was there watching.

42:38I mean, he made a number of dumb digital moves over the years. They kept changing Disney Buena Vista. I mean, I wrote stories on every one of them. But I do think directionally, very few people leaned into digital and streaming the way he did, right? Oh, I don't know. I would argue Netflix leaned in a little harder. Well, Netflix, of course. No, no, yes, no. They should have bought Netflix when they had the chance, and everybody had the chance at one point. But you're right. Netflix was in the right position. But you are dragging around a legacy organization makes it very hard. Well, a legacy organization that had the world's best IP.

43:12I mean, Netflix, so, okay, so Disney in the last 10 years has market returns of zero. And Netflix is up for, I'm sorry, it's up 600%. Yeah. And granted, the other studios have not fared any better, but with that IP, with the Parkster cash flow, look, Bob, what's the lesson here? The lesson is the following, and I think about this a lot. It is very hard to pull off the ultimate gangster move for your brand when you're in a position of power and you're doing well, and that is to leave the party too early. and that is people have a tendency when they're doing well and they're so iconic as Bob Iger is and was to think to just stay too long.

44:12Yeah. You want to leave the stage while people are clapping. You want to leave a party 10 minutes too early. You want to leave the Vanity Fair Oscar party at midnight, not at 4 a.m., when you're wandering around alone and it's clear Emily Ratajkowski is not going to speak to you. Was she there? By the way, at one point I was sitting at the bar.

44:29Kara Swisher:We didn't talk about this because you were blabbing away to all your other pod people. I was sitting at the bar, no joke, in between Jon Hamm, who's quite handsome, and Jacob Elordi, who's even more handsome and much taller. Yeah. Emily started walking towards the bar, and all I could think of is, there's no fucking way she's coming to me right now. Yeah. No way. I'm like, the price is right. This is the real Emily Reddick. You saw her. Oh, yeah. Trust me. I saw her. Yeah. By the way, she looks pretty good. She looks pretty good, Karen. So wait, what happened? Wait, I only want the Ratajkowski part.

45:04Kara Swisher:Go ahead. Nothing. She just walked up and had a drink. And at some point, I'm like, I want to be the professor, not the stalker. Right. But my favorite moment is— You didn't say hello? I'm too intimidated. Oh, my God. She's got to know we talk about her. I said hi to Maureen Dowd and Caitlin Collins. Those are my friends. I saw that. That's who I hang out with. And the smartless guys. Those guys are fun. I like those guys. They're fun. Those are fun guys. And they're like, they feel sorry. The only people that come up to me are like, they give me this in the intellect. They think, oh, it's so cute.

45:35They have a professor here. Let's go be nice to him. That's our charity for the night. And everybody comes up to me and says, I have sons and I very much appreciate your work. And then they say, oh, can I meet, you know, can I meet Judd Apatow now? I'm convinced half the people talking to me were checking themselves out in the reflection of my glasses. Oh, no, no. I can't believe you didn't speak to Emily Radikowski. By the way, that party, Vanity Fair, those people are geniuses. I'm going to subscribe twice. Okay. The environment they pulled together that night. Yeah, it's nice. It's a nice party.

46:11I think it's the most aspirational environment I've ever been in in my life. I just couldn't get over the wardrobe, the environment, the food, the vibe. They've always done a good job. I just saw it. The new editor in chat. Unbelievable. Mark. Yeah, Mark's great. Mark just is an amazing, handsome guy, too. Yeah. I have to say, they've always had a good party. They've been good at that under all their different editors. I think it's very nice. And I got to hang out with Larry David. It's like angry meet depressed, depressed meet angry. Oh, my God. You look alike. What happened? Was there like a moment in the universe?

46:42Larry and I are friends now. Oh, you're friends. We totally get along. Okay. All right. Yeah, we hit it off. And by the way, the Larry David show is really the Larry David show. I know. That's exactly who he is. He's like, what's the point of an Oscar? He just starts into a bit. And you're like, okay, here we are. He has a new show that looks hysterical that he did with the Obamas. Yeah, he's got a very lovely wife, too. Anyways, I very much— I don't know. I back to Bob Iger. Was Bob Iger there?

47:08Kara Swisher:Because it was Oscars. I did not see Bob. I did not sense a cashmere sweater tuxedo anywhere. But the thing is, you walk in, and they're like, do you want to do a red carpet? And Maureen Tell's like, I'm not doing a red carpet. And I'm like, I am so doing the red carpet. And they have hundreds of photographers. And there's three X's. And I guess you're supposed to go to one X. And take pictures. Yeah. I didn't know that. So I go to the first X and they're like, hello, professor. And they're all nice. And I'm like, now I'm going to go to the second X and sit here and pose. Get the fuck out of here.

47:38And then I go to the third X. And by the time I got to the third X, I realized everyone's like, what the fuck is this guy doing? And one of the photographers, just out of a moment of like feeling sorry for me, kind of waved me along. He's like, you're supposed to go to just one X. One X. And I turned beet red. I'm a bad celebrity, Kara.

47:55Kara Swisher:Oh, my God. Can I ask you one question? Did you see Jeff Bezos? He was there. Oh, yeah, I saw him with Lauren. I thought they looked great. I don't mind Jeff's midlife crisis. I'm here for it. I know. But did you say hello? I said hello to all three of them. I mean, I said, yeah, no, I said hello. Did you say hello? I'm intimidated. Unless people come up to me, I'm intimidated. I don't like to approach anybody. You could have gone and said, Kara says hello. In that one, you could have done that. That's like, hi, my rich father knows you. I just don't want to do that. No, he doesn't like me. I would be bad.

48:27But I literally freaked out at about midnight. I'm like, this is the best party of my life. I need to go home and take a Xanax and just recover from all that. Oh, wow. I felt like a kid who'd been at a candy store for eight hours. Did you? I can't believe. My only note is I can't believe you didn't say hello to Emily Radikowski. You're a loser. You are a loser. And I think she was there alone. Not that I was, like, looking at her a lot. I think she was there alone. You needed to say. That was your golden opportunity to say hello. That's the end of our relationship. Anyway, Bob Iger's next act, very quickly.

48:56He'll go on a couple boards and he'll enjoy his life and he deserves to do all of those things. He wasn't happy doing that before. And hang out with his lovely wife and speak at USC's film school. I don't know.

49:04Kara Swisher:He's got to do something else. I think it's something else. How old is Bob? Bob is 74, 73? Yeah. He is in really good shape. Yeah, he looks really good. When he was in the last one, he texted me far too much and I was like, I think you need to do something else. Because I think he's got another thing in him. I don't know what it is. No, no. He's 75. Yeah. Yeah. He could be in the cabinet. He could be in the Democratic cabinet. Well, that's 77, 78. He probably doesn't want that head. He could be the head. Could he be the Commerce Secretary? I don't know. He probably doesn't want to. What do you need that shit for?

49:32He'll be Ambassador of France and throw amazing parties at the U.S. residents. That's perfect. Ambassador of France. Yeah. Let's do it.

49:40Kara Swisher:Bob, we're going to send you to France. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Calci facing criminal charges, your favorite groups of people there, Scott.

49:54Support for the show comes from CoreWeave. AI isn't just a new tool. It encompasses so much more. It's spurring a revolution across all industries and reshaping itself to become a big part of our future together. CoreWeave is at the center, powering some of the biggest names in AI. As the essential cloud for AI, CoreWeave provides an AI platform that combines next-generation infrastructure, intelligent tools, and expert support. It's powering the world's most complex AI workloads, faster and more efficiently. From medical research and diagnosis to education, from complex visual effects from movies to breakthroughs in science and technology.

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52:07We'll be right back.

52:20While supplies last, selection varies by location.

52:28Scott, we're back with more news. Calci is facing criminal charges in Arizona, where prosecutors say the prediction market platform illegally let people bet without a gambling license. Calci says the charges are meritless and said they should be regulated federally rather than by individual states. The case is the first criminal prosecution against a prediction market company. It's more to come. I actually, when I was at South by South, met with the California attorney general who today did a lawsuit, one of the lawsuits against the Nexstar, whatever that ridiculous merger was. In any case, the states have been regulating gambling for a year, like forever, for decades.

53:03So it's not meritless. So what do you think of this? Because what was interesting, another story popped up, which I found fascinating. The Times of Israel reporter received death threats from gamblers on Polly market after reporting an Iranian missile strike that affected a high-sex prediction market bet. Some bettors tried to pressure him to change the story so the market would resolve in their favor. And let me just say, this is a topic people are really interested in. I'll read an email from one of our listeners. I'm a journalist and a fan of the show. I don't understand why I'm hearing cal-sheet percentages cited during the show.

53:34I said anything, it's people guessing. I think it's more harmful than helpful. That's you doing it, Scott. I don't do that. I agree with you. What do you think about these markets shifting from predicting events to actively influencing them in certain, given the gaming part, easily gamed, unregulated, bad actors? It is gambling, and gambling is very well regulated. So what do you think about that? I think there's some truth to all of that. This is one of those things I'm hugely conflicted by because I am absolutely fascinated with the data. where I would push back on the listener is, oh, no, this data is incredibly insightful.

54:12This is the wisdom of crowds. This does illuminate. Whenever I'm looking at political races, whenever I'm looking at interest rate movements, I go to Cal Street.

54:23Kara Swisher:You don't think it's a trailing indicator? You don't think it's a trailing indicator? It's pretty much up to date. And the thing about money and the thing about looking at, typically the people who did this stuff were academics, economists, or an investment banking analyst. All of them are conflicted. All of them want to catastrophize because it makes us look smarter. All of us have third-party influences. Nothing is more amoral and pure than money. When someone bets on something, it really shows you what they really think is going to happen. And if you look at it, these speculative markets, speculation markets or prediction markets have essentially put pollsters, and to a certain extent, investment banking analysts out of work because guess what?

55:05They're much - Kind of. I would push back on that. I just met with a bunch of pollsters on this topic. Go ahead. In my opinion, they're done. If you look at the prediction markets record versus pollsters in the last election, the prediction markets kicked their ass. Absolutely. I love the data. I am swimming in the data. It's one of the first things I do before I get on a show is I look at Cal Street data. I'm totally conflicted because at the same time, there's a really good argument that this is just gambling. Now, what's happening is they're being charged with four counts of election wagering.

55:43The debate is over the fundamental definition of gambling versus event contracts. And Arizona charges claim that putting money on a contingent future event or occurrence is illegal. But at the same time, Cara, if that's true, then traditional options would be illegal. And here's the problem or the issue. Gambling and tapping into a prefrontal cortex, an immature prefrontal cortex that is dopa-hungry and susceptible, in some ways, there's just no getting around it. It feels predatory and unhealthy. So what do you do? Do you infantilize? I think Cal Street is trying to be the cleanest, best-lit place of this.

56:27They're not doing contracts on things like war, whereas Polymarket is offshore, and Cal Street is trying to get licensed by the same people who license the options exchange. But I want to hear what you think. I have no moral clarity around this.

56:43Kara Swisher:I think the states have been regulating gambling forever. So I think that's nonsense. If gambling is going on, they need to— But they're approving it. They're approving it everywhere. States have been approving gambling all over the place. They are, but so they need to be regulated in the same way. It's my thing with everything. It's like if OpenAI is giving legal, medical, or psychological advice, they need to be subject to the same rules people are, right? Everybody – I was in Vegas for a second. I have to tell you, you're absolutely right. It's dead. Vegas is dead. You don't need to be in Vegas.

57:16Vegas is in your pocket now. That's right.

57:18Kara Swisher:I was like – I literally – oh, my God, Scott was right. It was so freaky to be in Vegas without people. It felt like I was in like pluribus, right? It was so weird. And you could feel the enervation of a place that is just with these big rooms and the casinos empty. It's weird. And so it's definitely hurting businesses, right? These kind of things, whether it's sports betting online or this kind of thing. They need to be regulated the same way everybody else is. And states have every right to do this. This is not, and maybe there should be federal gambling laws, but there haven't been, really.

57:52Kara Swisher:I think that would be good. I think they would want that. I think they want some regulation. Yes. But let me ask you a more pointed question. Well, that's what the old tech company said. Oh, please bring us regulation, and they never got any. I think they would actually be up for it. Crypto. Please bring us regulation. They don't want regulation. Let me ask you this. You have sons. I think about this a lot. Let's be clear. Much of this is gambling. but at the same time, do you infantilize children? And I know firsthand as someone who appreciates data, there is real value in this data. There is.

58:24Kara Swisher:It can also be easily gamed, so easily. We don't know what's in it. There's a lot of potential for insider trading, but the more liquid markets, people are more greedy. Anyway, huge potential for insider trading. I get it. But let me ask you this. do you think they should be put out of business, regulated, or let to just run free? Regulated. And what does that mean? I'm not sure. I'm not an expert on this, but I feel like I want to know how gambling things are regulated. Age-gating to 21 would be one good start, right? Possibly. Yes, 21. It's interesting. Yes, yes, yes, actually, on certain parts.

59:01Kara Swisher:Other parts, it's fine. But yes, age-gating would be one thing. It's not infantilizing. We do it all the time with real businesses. Agreed. Porn, alcohol, military, driver's license. What offends me is we're different. It's the same song and dance from all internet companies. We're different. We don't deserve the same thing. And they get an unfair advantage here. Who gets unfair advantage? These markets get unfair advantage. It made me very uncomfortable, for example, when CNN and others sign deals with them because I'm like, because I don't think they know how to use them properly. That's the other thing.

59:40Kara Swisher:It can be so, it's not reporting. Like it's not, it's an indicator. It's a data point. But it's not, I guess I don't like them doing polls either. So I guess I just, I find it very weak and it can be very influential in a way. And so I just feel like it obviously needs to have some regulatory thing. With my sons, they don't actually, they're not big bettors. I don't, I'm not, I don't know why. I mean, I get the, like, I was in Vegas for two days and I didn't bet once. Like, I was like, I walked right through the casinos, but that's me. But I just feel like it's, the death threat, this reporter thing was a really interesting thing.

1:00:17Kara Swisher:Like, this has implications that have been around since the dawn of time. And they think they're different. And so I think we need to have more transparency into how they're doing things. I think they should have, you know, they shouldn't bet on deaths. Like, I mean, they shouldn't be. I don't know if we should make them not do it or if you say, OK, you're going to do that. Yeah, but to be fair, I do think Kalshi has said we're not going to create markets and things like war that might involve an incentive that might involve death or geopolitical decisions. So that's the kind of stuff. But there's going to be someone who's going to.

1:00:53Kara Swisher:So maybe we need some laws, right? I agree. Anyway, we have to move on. It's a really interesting, it's a developing situation, but I think it's in every state's rights to do this. So Calci should stop being so high-handed with them. Of course they're going to come in. It's affecting things. So this is exactly why the government should come in in some fashion. At least think about it, have hearings, talk about it, and let's discuss the things. Just before we finish, this is the last thing. Uber plans to invest$1.2 billion in Rivian as part of a deal to deploy 50 ,000 robo-taxis. I recently spoke with Rivian founder and CEO RJ Skirinj on with Kira Swisher.

1:01:30I also saw him for an extended amount of time at South by Southwest. Let's listen to a clip where he talked about self-driving. If you're a customer and you have a choice of I can buy a car for$35 ,000,$40 ,000 and it can, you know, drop me at the airport. It can go to the grocery store to pick up, you know, stuff for me. It can drop a friend at a house. It can do all those things. Or a car that doesn't do that. It's going to be very binary, right? I think there'll be very few people that will self-select to say, I don't want those features. Even folks who are not comfortable with the idea of self-driving, once you experience it one or two times.

1:02:04It does. I try to say that to everybody. It's so sticky. Because you get your time back. Suddenly you can be reading a book on your phone. It's just so sticky.

1:02:12Kara Swisher:My one way of convincing one person who likes to party, I'm like, you can text and drink. I don't know what to say. That's my sale for you. I think that was you I was talking about. It was super interesting. I think it's a real blow, again, to Tesla. I drove the Rivian, too, at South by Southwest. They have a really nifty bike called Also, which I liked a lot. I really liked the Rivian. I think he's interesting. I think he's a great spokesperson for this stuff. And they're wonderful. It's a wonderful—I may buy one. I might buy an R2 because I was super impressed with it. In any case, it's a really interesting move by Uber who needs to get into this business.

1:02:57And it's a good thing for Rivian who, you know, it's a tough struggle to get these cars, to get a car company going. Your thoughts on Rivian? I think it's a win-win. I think Rivian is subscale. Automobile platforms cost so many billions to produce. I think Rivian has done as good a job as anyone. I'm moving, when I move back to the U.S., I'm going to, if I buy a car and I've really enjoyed not having a car for four years, I'm probably going to buy a Rivian.

1:03:25Kara Swisher:The two is nice. It's smaller. I was one of those people that put$5 ,000 down on it like five, six years ago and never took delivery of it. I should probably look into that. New Calci market. What's the likelihood that he gets his money back? I think, look, Tesla's missed a real opportunity here again and again and again. But I don't think he cares about the cars anymore, does he? I mean, he was introducing a cyber cab that doesn't exist and isn't being used anywhere. I mean, between Waymo and Rivian, I think they've sort of ran around. But let me, it's also very, one, they need more scale. So this is a great win for Rivian.

1:04:00Correct. Two, I think one of the biggest brand enhancements is to be known. There are a few brands that have fallen further faster in the last 20 years and made shittier cars than Jaguar. This is one of the great British brands in history. The design and the cars the last 20 years have just been remarkably uninspiring. Now, the best brand move, in my opinion, in Jaguar is they have been the car of choice that I've seen for Waymo. Yes, they are. So, immediate's like, oh, Jaguar is kind of the Pepsi generation new cool car. I didn't even know what the – I had to look. I didn't even recognize the car.

1:04:41And I'm like, oh, that's a Jaguar. So it's brand enhancing for Rivian. It gives them all sorts of scale. And also what people have underappreciated is that the biggest winner, the obvious biggest winner in autonomous, regardless of all the bullshit press releases, people realize it's not Tesla. It's likely Waymo. They have the capital. They're miles ahead of everyone. They have exponentially more miles under their belt in terms of testing this. But there's an outside shot that the biggest winner here is going to be Uber. Because when you control - They're sort of like the Apple. They're sort of like the Apple.

1:05:18We always use in consulting, we always use the term custody of the consumer. My first client was Levi Strauss and Company, and they were always complaining about JCPenney's and Sears. I'm like, yeah, but they have custody of the consumer. You need to open your own stores. You need to go vertical to control the relationship with the consumer. In the U.S., Uber has 75 % market share. They're basically a monopoly. Yeah, our grocery store, he's a very effective. And so what they can do is they can say, they can push up an icon saying, why do you need to download the Waymo or the Tesla app? Just click here for driverless.

1:05:52Yeah, they could also do deals with Waymo too. And they can play them off against each other. They can find the company that wants to work with them the most and get market share. But you could also use Uber to summon Waymo. I mean, think, why not? That's my point. And then take a large margin. So what did Apple do? Because they controlled custody of the billion wealthiest people in the world through UI, and people don't want to learn a new app, they extract$20 billion a year from Alphabet to make Google the default search engine. Uber's in a position to extract extraordinary deals around autonomous and make it and say to people, oh, yeah, you want autonomous?

1:06:30No problem. Here's the Uber app you love. And so, look, Waymo, it's going to be interesting. Autonomous, I think one of the places that AI actually comes to fruition and exceeds our expectations is around autonomous. I agree. The question is, what's interesting is two of the biggest winners, hands down, are going to be Uber and Waymo. And I wouldn't be surprised if Uber is, in fact, the biggest winner because they have custody of the consumer. Yeah, ultimately. I've been, as you know, a big proponent of self-driving in a safe mode. I will tell you, I would never get in a Tesla given – I had a long talk with RJ about, you know, I think he's more on the you don't need this many points of safety, but he put them on there anyway, right?

1:07:15And so compared to Elon, it's like I just have one camera with a guy in the back. Like I feel so unsafe in Teslas in that regard. And I think the way Waymo's done it is correct. But you're right. Uber's in a very – it could have been easily sidelined by all these companies. But they have the – I always used to say they have the reservation system. And you're right. It's the chain of custody. And you do trust Uber. Boy, what a brand. I mean, I know Travis Callen is trying to come back in this sector. But I got to say, Dara took that company and really made it into one. You know what is – Comparatively.

1:07:48It's really been eye-opening for me, and it goes to something you said that's always really resonated with me, and that is the thing about tech executives, they're traditionally white males who went to elite schools raised in wealthy families. And when you've never been a victim, it's difficult to understand victimization. That's always struck me, that, like, until I walk in those shoes, you don't. And you know what women say to me? It makes so much sense, and I just never realized it. I get into an Uber. The driver usually doesn't talk to me. I don't want to talk to them. And I know that sounds terrible.

1:08:20I just don't. I don't want to talk. I don't want to be on my phone. Every woman I've talked to says when they get in an Uber, the Uber driver tries to chatter up. Not me, but yes. Well, it's uncomfortable, especially if you talk to young women. And they don't. And you know who's really used, loves Waymo is women. Women, they do. Or else you can also now on Uber, by the way, request a woman. And they've done a great job. Let me tell you, Dara goes for shy. I don't agree with him on everything. He's a great CEO. I think sometimes he can be a little too compromising with terrible people. I think he knows it.

1:08:55He's a great CEO. He's a great CEO.

1:08:57Kara Swisher:He's done a great job here. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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1:10:15Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's gonna be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. and we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

1:10:52Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. Can I just start very quickly? Of course. I predict this MAGA micropenis war is going to get worse, and I am here for it. Do you know about this, right? Megyn Kelly said Mark Levin had a micropenis, And then President Trump defended his micropenis. And then Marjorie Taylor Greene came in with a micropenis. And Megyn Kelly's doubling down on it. It's completely crude and awful and repulsive. And I think it's going to get a lot worse. And I'm very pleased. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I don't, I think it's inappropriate to talk about men's genitalia, Cara. By the way, I was at a urine stall last night and a guy looked over and he said, circumcised?

1:11:33And I said, nope, that's just the wear and tear.

1:11:36Kara Swisher:Oh, my God. You've told that joke before. I'm going to start clocking your penis jokes. Never gets old. I'm not going to say Adam Grant, but Adam Grant said you've got to cut back on the penis jokes. The party you missed. Oh, my nemesis? Yes, your nemesis was like, there's Fox too many. The more successful version of Scott Galloway? He's doing a podcast on the Vox Media Podcast Network with Brene Brown, the two of them. They're trying to be the nice version of Scott and Kara, I think. And he commented on your penis jokes. And I said, and I literally, Scott, I said, I love them. I defended you so hard.

1:12:08Kara Swisher:I appreciate that. And I was like, people love them. And he's like, yeah, but you think it's the right thing? I go, it's the right thing. I'm going to, no matter how much my brand. If that's right, I don't want to be wrong. Also, I want to be a little bent to the left. Yeah. Anyway. Just a touch bent to the left. Congratulations for me and Adam on your new show. It's a condition. I'm a special needs person. It's a condition. Don't shame me. Micropenis. I'm here. Don't shame me. Now I'm talking about micropenis. Sorry, Adam. But micropenis work cracks me the fuck up. And I'm here for it. And I hope more to come.

1:12:39Kara Swisher:And I think we're not done with the micropenis. I love it when they war with each other. Because one of the things I don't like about the Democratic Party is that I find for the most part when I just went on this great podcast, this really lovely guy. He's a conservative out of Fort Lauderdale. Oh, you want that guy? Oh, I like him. I thought he was nice.

1:13:03Anyways, the thing I find generally speaking about Republicans is they're like, oh, you want to be a Republican? Come on in. And when you say, oh, I want to be a progressive, it's like, we'll see. Not anymore. I feel like we apply way more. Not anymore. Tallarico. There's a new Democrat in town. But go ahead. If you don't choose the right words, if you don't hold the gun correctly, let's court martial you and hang you. It's the right that's doing it now. But go ahead. No, you know what this is? This is a bunch of podcasters who know the algorithm. The more fights they get into and the more incendiary they are.

1:13:36Yeah, I suppose. You're right. You know, Candace Owens makes a living off of saying really vile things because the algorithms and the reason our nation is being torn apart at the seams is there's now a financial incentive in being vile and incendiary. The algorithms love it. In a world where there were editors and fact checkers and more reasonable people saying, is that a reasonable thing we want to print? She would be fucking nowhere.

1:14:00Kara Swisher:Yes, I get it. Anyway, so I don't, I love it when these guys fight, but at the end of the day, it's indicative of a bigger problem, and that is our media, our overlords, our algorithms deciding that this is news. Oh, you're so good. I don't care. I like the micropenis. Anyway, I defended you to Adam Grant on the penis. I appreciate that. I'm telling you, other than academic credibility and talent and higher IQ. That dude has nothing on me. That dude has nothing on me. Do you know he was a diver in college? Even better. He was a diver. Yeah. All his sort of like, you know, his tweets about, you know, characters doing the right thing when no one's looking.

1:14:41Oh, fuck you.

1:14:43Kara Swisher:All right, move along. Adam Grant, you and Brene Brown. They're better people than we are. All your thoughtfulness and deep introspection. Let's just say, pound for pound, they're better people than us, but that's okay. Well, that's clear. Brene's better than me. Great. I love that, Brene. Anyway, please. I want to be clear. I like them both, and Adam is a friend, so I trust he's taking this all in jest. I hope so. One would assume. Maybe they'll discuss it on their new show. Maybe we should have a rumble with them. I think we could be evil twins. I think with his intellect and my, I don't know, my something, we could take over Australia, and Brene would be queen of Australia.

1:15:15Kara Swisher:We should do a crossover show. I'm going to invite them on a crossover show. All right. We could switch partners. You know when they switch the husband and wives? You know, I've tried it, but I'm the one that ends up alone and no one's up for it. It's called a key party. You could have Brene. Well, you've been on Brene. Anyway, finish. Do your prediction. Prediction. Oh, I'm sorry. My prediction is OpenAI Sora social media app will be shut down soon. Oh, Sora. What do you know? You know something. No, I don't. I've done no original reporting. Trust me. Okay. All right. But they're focusing, which is the right thing to do.

1:15:50So Sora is essentially open AI. It's sort of a tick-like social media platform for AI-generated content. And users use their video model to generate short-form content. And they can upload it and share it, right? And upon its release, Sora came out at number one in the App Store and actually got more downloads out of the gates than ChatGPT did. However, the parties ended. Downloads fell 32 % month over month in December and another 45 % in January. And some Sora is the little engine that didn't. And also, users continue to drop like flies. But at the same time, OpenAI has to spend a ton of money to keep the lights on there.

1:16:38And some estimates are that... It also brings a lot of legal challenges. Well, it's costing them 15 million bucks a day or 5 billion a year. and despite that, the app is bringing in less than half a million dollars per month. And given their new focus, which is the right one on focus, it's not central to OpenAI's core competences. They're an AI company, not a social media company. It's not creating revenue. Big losses. And also, it's really unpopular. 62 % of Americans disapprove of online videos created with AI tools. It's a lot more trouble than it's worth. It feels dystopian. 70 % of people globally would be uncomfortable consuming fully AI-generated creative content.

1:17:20So this new focus, this new adult in the room saying we need to focus on the enterprise market is now, quite frankly, we have ceded so much share and value to Anthropic. The first -

1:17:31Kara Swisher:Yeah, it's stupid. It's stupid. Anyways, the first example - I like it. Of this focus is that OpenAI Sora, rest in peace, it's going to be shut down. All right. Okay. Oh, I like that. That's a big call. I think that's a good one. I just want to make one other note before we go. President Trump's comments about dyslexia. I have a lot of friends who have dyslexia, by the way. He said Governor Newsom should not be president because he had dyslexia or has. Gross. What a gross thing to say. I'm just like, stop it. Stop demonizing things that are learning disabilities. It's gross. He does it all the time, but it's a continual thing.

1:18:10and everyone just lets him go. But honestly, it's just, ugh. And I predict it will have bad effects. Anyway. Are you really surprised though?

1:18:20Kara Swisher:No, but I just don't, I'm like, no. Like we, I think we should keep saying no to this fucker. I don't know. I put the, I put the sex in dyslexia. Wait, wait, sexy, dyslexia, sexy, dyslexia. Anyway, anyway. Get it? Get it, that's good. Got it, I got it. Anyway, you're grotesque. I'm sorry, I think we have to call these out all the time. And I'm not angry about it, It's just, yeah. We want to hear from you. My favorite stripper has dyslexia. Her name was Density.

1:18:50I like a joke. Adam Grant, take that. Talk about character and being a good manager. I like a joke. Try to compete with my stripper Density, my dyslexic stripper Density. Yeah, right.

1:19:02Kara Swisher:Okay. Let's see who wins the iHeart Podcast of the Year award. Density should be president. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week because there's so much news. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Interside engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Misevera, and Dan Chalon.

1:19:34Nishak Kuro as Vox Media is executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. Density. That's good.

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