Trump on Trial, Big Bank Earnings, and Guest Charles Duhigg

24:12And that is here are three or four different possible outcomes for the economy in the next 12 months. And this is why J.P. Morgan is well positioned to take advantage in any scenario. But trying to predict where the economy is going to be in 12 months, good luck with that. Yeah, he's been doing that. And he was wrong in the last one. He also had some mistakes. You know, he's talking a lot. He looks like he's trying out for Treasury Secretary all the time. 100%. It's really, I like, stop it. I think he'd be great. Great. I think he'd be great. Great. He doesn't need to talk so much. You know, for a banker, he talks too much.

24:42That's my feeling. Well, the guy's a leader. My guess is like a lot of these guys has got a pretty healthy ego. But there's a difference between – I'll give you an example. The right financial leader, the wrong financial leader. Mark Rowan felt very passionate about anti-Semitism on campus. He took real action. He affected change. And quite frankly, he has withdrawn to being the CEO of Apollo. Oh, Bill Ackman gets involved, gets drunk on the fame, gets drunk on the power, and now it's decided that he needs to weigh in on all things higher ed, all things DEI. He has handled it poorly. I think David Solomon, I don't want to say sticks to his knitting, but is pretty focused on Goldman and his prospects.

25:25Jamie is a huge national leader. He has huge respect. He gets a lot of business that way. But if I'm whispering in his ear, I'm like, just I would probably pull it back a little bit. Yeah, I've noticed he's surrounded by a lot of yes people lately. Hard not to when you're a guy like that. Yeah, I get it. But he used to be a little more able to take criticism, I would say. I will say this, though. I've spoken in a bunch of J.P. Morgan events where you have the wealthiest people literally in the room, and he'll stand up and he'll say, yeah, everyone in this room should pay more taxes. He's not afraid to say that shit.

25:59So I think he's also advocating, to his credit, he's advocating for a negative income tax, which is basically UBI. And like, when's the last time the head of the largest bank in the nation advocated for something like that? I'm super excited for him to do that when he's treasurer's secretary. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, he's going to get the job. Jamie, you're going to get the job. Don't worry. You don't need to. It's almost like selling past the sale. Do you know that expression? He's selling past the sale. Well, buying it back. Don't buy it back. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like, I'm like, OK, got it.

26:25You want to be treasurer's secretary. OK. All right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. Donald Trump's first criminal trial begins. Oh, for the Lord's sake. and as this stock continues to fall at True Social. And we'll be back with a friend of Pivot, Charles Duhigg, about how to be a super communicator. We could all use that.

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27:26Introducing Liquid IV's new energy multiplier sugar freeze. Unlike other energy drinks, you know, the ones that make you feel like you're glitching, it's made with natural caffeine and electrolytes. So you get the boost without the burnout. Liquid IV's new energy multiplier sugar-free hydrating energy. Tap the banner to learn more. There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025 are late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks.

28:08If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes. But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now. That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

28:43Scott, we're back. Former President Donald Trump's criminal trial over hush money payments is getting underway in the Manhattan courtroom this week. Just today, the first time in American history that a former president will stand trial in a criminal case. Trump faces, for those who want to keep track of this, he faces 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. He says he plans to testify, though it's unclear if it will actually happen. He says a lot of things. This is the porn star one, everybody. So just so you know, this is not the documents one or the or the insurrection one. This is the this is the porn star one.

29:16and whether he was, oh, anyway. This is the first of Trump's four criminal trials. The latest New York Times Siena poll shows candidates in virtual tie with Trump at 46 and Biden at 45. Biden's come up quite a bit. The five major broadcast and cable networks also put out joint open letter over the weekend, urging Trump and Biden to participate in televised debates ahead of the election. That's going to be a lot of posturing back and forth. And finally, the stock price of True Social's parent company, Trump Media, continues to slide, plunging more than 15 % on Monday after the company filed to issue millions of additional shares.

29:49Trump Media has lost about$3.5 billion in value since its public debut last month. There's another three to go. Ultimately, what happens with this stock, obviously? The Washington Post profiled several Trump supporters and investors who say they're in it for the long haul. I felt sorry for them because they seemed idiotic, but willfully so. I don't know if Trump can liquidate his holdings. This is what we said it was. So thoughts on our latest Donald Trumpness? Let's keep this one short. I think he's probably found guilty. I don't think he serves any time, and it increases the likelihood he's reelected president.

30:22I don't like this case. And the only thing I'm fairly certain—well, not fairly—I think Trump Social, whatever we're calling it now, will be single digits. It's the people have gone in here for whatever. Nobody went in here for business fundamentals. They went in because they thought maybe it was a meme stock or they wanted to support Donald Trump. And I just got to, I mean, when you wake up, I think, well, I don't know what the people were thinking here. But I know what they're thinking now. And that is I've lost two-thirds of my money if I bought at the peak. Right, but they're happy. Some of them are like, I'm going to buy more.

30:57But go ahead. You should read that piece. I guess that's – this company could be – I don't know what it's at today, 20 – this company could be at a dollar a share in 30 days. It just – there's no floor here. It's a company doing$4 million in revenues. And by the way, I think people should be able to buy stock in whatever they want. And the directors and him, if and when the lockup comes off, they should be able to sell their shares. But for the people investing here, be clear, you're investing in some sort of, you're not investing in a company. It's a scam. Well, it's not even a scam. You're just investing in a meme stock or you're investing in support of him.

31:38But you're not, you might, it's like the way I think of it, think of it as a campaign contribution. You're not getting that money back. And whenever I give money to politicians, I got to be honest, I feel good about it when I do it. And then a year later, I think it was like it never happened. Did anything really come of that? I don't. Yeah, a lot of people are putting their life savings into it and they think it's like that George Soros is doing this story is just like I know that he's being taken advantage of. I'm like, it's like it's a shitty business. That's why it's doing this. Like, let's just be clear.

32:06It's the business is terrible. It's a terrible business. And also they're losing subscribers, etc, etc. Everything about it. It's not a business. It's not an actual business. And they just continue to insist. They want to love Donald Trump. Just send him your check directly. Just send him your money directly. I feel bad. I felt bad for these people when I was reading the story. And then I thought, you're a bunch of idiots. So I don't feel bad in any way whatsoever about you. So we'll see. And so you think the trials don't matter? I don't agree with you. I think these trials are a chippity-chip-chip for women, especially.

32:37Women are already like with the abortion thing. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he was a rapist with the E. Jean Carroll. And oh, he likes porn stars. I don't know. I just don't. Reminders. So first, listening to you, you evoked the right analogy. And the analogy is the people who give money to these televangelists who are flying private, you know, people who spend their welfare checks giving money to these. Anyways, to me, it's the exact same thing. I don't I think this case probably helps him because I think it rallies his base who feel he's being unfairly persecuted. I don't think this is a good case.

33:15They always I think it's actually better than I've read a lot of analysis. There's a lot more here than meets the eye. I think he's, look, it's pretty, if they could make a pretty clear thing, he'll never testify, by the way, people. He'll never get on the stand. A hundred percent he won't. You're absolutely right. He can't. If he does, he's finished. He's finished if he testifies. I think he, I don't know if you've been seeing some of his speeches. He's got some cognitive difficulties that are really quite profound. The whole thing about Robert E. Lee, I don't know, he's slurring words. He cannot get on the stand.

33:44Like, it will show quite a lot of cognitive problems, I suspect. Well, and he'd perjure himself. He perjured himself. He can't do it. No. He can't take the stand the same reason that Elon Musk was never going to take the stand, because he would either have to basically say, I've lied over and over, or he would have to lie. And when you start lying on the stand, there's potentially real prison time. There's perjury. But this case, I think the nuclear secrets won. I think the election interference. I would stay focused on those. But we'll see. This reminds me that he's a pig. Like, I don't know.

34:19I just more of. Haven't they figured that out already? No, it's just reminder. Like, you haven't been reminded in a while. You're like, oh, yeah, the rapist. Oh, yeah, the pig. Oh, yeah, the porn stars. Like, it's like, do we want this again? And I think that's how, look, the numbers of Biden, as I said, are starting to grow again because people are like, oh, this fucking guy. Yes, all the polls. Like, as I predicted, I'm good on the political stuff. I'm not as good on the business stuff as you are, but I'm better on the political stuff. I just think, we'll see where it goes. But Trump media, oh, you poor souls.

34:45But I get too emotional. I get too emotional. Some of your facts are not factual. But anyway, feelings are not facts. Yeah, that's not fair. It is a little bit fair. It's a little bit fair. Yeah, it's not fair. It's fair. It's fair. Anyway, in the case of Trump Media, Scott is 100 % factually correct. In any case, don't buy that stock, people. And if you have to, just send them the money. Just walk over to Mar-a-Lago and drop off a bag of money. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of Pivot so you and I can learn to communicate in a more super way.

35:20Charles Duhigg is a writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book, Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Welcome, Charles. And I just was saying previously, I admire your beard. You're going into Malcolm Gladwell's school of weird hair situations, follicular. You know, Scott could do the beard, too, if he wants. He's got it started there. He's got it started. Then he'll look like he's from, like, the 18, 1864, say, Arizona. I look like Lennon if he was less sexy. Oh, yeah. Okay. He doesn't have the eyebrows for it. Anyway. By the way, Charles, you look, I got, we saw you at South by Southwest, right?

35:57Yeah. Yeah. Just so you know, the beard ages you. Maybe you're looking for that, but the beard absolutely adds some years. I'm actually hoping that I look about a, you know, 85, 90. That's great. Sounds like it's working. No, I remember, I remember you, you're like a young spry guy. I met this young spry guy at South by Southwest. And Kara goes, that guy's such a hitter. His book is great. She very rarely compliments people as much as she complimented you. In any case, first of all, explain to us what exactly is a super communicator you write in this book actually came about when you realized you weren't communicating well in your marriage.

36:32So let's get to that. Yeah, that's exactly right. Or at the New York Times, right? I was a manager at the Times. Well, that's impossible. That's impossible. We won't go into it, but that is not you. So I had this problem where I'd come home from work and I would complain to my wife about my day and she would give me this really good advice, like, you know, take your boss out to lunch, get to know him better. And instead of being able to hear her, I would, you know, get upset and say, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side. And then she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice.

36:59And I wanted to understand what was going on. And so I went out to researchers and I asked them, you know, why am I miscommunicating? I'm a professional communicator. And what they said is, well, look, we're living through a golden age of understanding communication. And one of the things that we know now is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing, but it's actually many different kinds of conversations. And in general, they tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's practical conversations where we're solving problems, we're making plans together. But then there's emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you to solve my feelings.

37:28I want you to empathize. And then finally, there's social conversations about how we relate to each other. And if you're not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, that's when you miscommunicate. I was having an emotional conversation. My wife was having a practical conversation. And so we couldn't really hear each other. I know that. I'm always like, what's the solution? I don't really care about the feeling as much as the solution, which is interesting. So what do you see as the main reason? I mean, of course, it's hard to like say one reason that people struggle to communicate effectively.

37:56But talk about a few of them. It's usually because for a couple of reasons. First of all, that we don't we're not having the same kind of conversation. Remember that that wave of like tech CEOs doing layoffs over Zoom? So obviously when you're laying someone off, that's an emotional conversation. And yet they were treating it as a practical conversation. This is why we're laying you off. Here's the benefits you're going to get. This is what's best for the company. Somebody hearing that they're losing their job, they don't want to hear about the practicalities. They want to hear someone who empathizes with them.

38:26And so having the same kind of conversation at the same moment is critical. Another thing that's really important is asking more questions. Super communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And as reporters, we know this, right? The power of questions, and particularly asking deep questions, questions that ask me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. Like if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, where do you practice medicine? And saying, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? That's an invitation for them to say something real.

38:54And then finally, the thing that super communicators do is they prove that they're listening. They ask follow-up questions that show they're paying attention. They might do this thing called looping for understanding where they repeat back what they heard you say. And when we feel listened to, that's when we become more likely to listen in return. Oh, that's an interesting technique. So what you've just said to me is, no, no. You're very good at it. Yeah, no, I'm not. Do you want me to explain it to you? Yeah, yeah, that's what he does. Sorry. Scott, go for it, Mr. Communications. You've sort of outlined, my dad said this to me when I was much younger and I didn't register how important it was or how many subtleties to it.

39:37And it sounds like it's a lot of what your themes. You used to say communication is with the listener. Can you talk about something I didn't figure out until I was much older is the power of silence. Just looking someone in the eye and make sure that you know that you are not waiting to speak, that you're listening to them. Can you talk about the power of silence and sort of acknowledging the point, if you will? Absolutely. Absolutely. Creating those spaces for silence is critical. And what's interesting is that speaking is such a cognitively intense activity that oftentimes we don't really pay attention to how people are acting when we're speaking.

40:15Right? And so the way that we create that silence or we create that proof of listening is when they stop talking what we do. For instance, think about how powerful it is. If you just said something profound and someone says, wow, that gives me a lot to think about. Let me take a second just to think about what you just said. In that moment, what you're really doing is you're saying, I am listening to you. I promise I'm listening to you. And then if you ask a follow-up question, or if you say, here's what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. What we're doing is we're proving that we're listening.

40:47Because you're exactly right. Many people, particularly in a hard conversation, a conflict conversation, we suspect in the back of our head, this person isn't listening. They're waiting their turn to speak. And we have to prove that that's not what's happening. And when we do, it transforms a conversation. So one of the things you just talked about, reference Zoom communication, a lot of communication happens on text or video or social media, which is a very different level of communication, which is not about listening in any way. Some of the time it is, but usually it isn't. How does technology play into what we're writing about?

41:20because often when Scott and I get into beefs, it's over a text. You know what I mean? Like I'm thinking, which he takes the wrong way. No, one of us gets into a beef. The other just sits there and thinks, what the fuck is she texting me for 3 a.m.? No. I don't respond, Charles. But then when we talk, when we talk. I'm the winner. I'm the super communicator. No, he's not. I just listen. No. In any case, we always solve it when we talk together. Always. Even over the phone. Even over a phone. It makes a huge difference, right? In the book, there's a story about a CIA officer who is a terrible CIA officer.

41:53He's sent over to Europe to try and recruit spies, and he's terrible at his job. And he learns this lesson, which is different types of communication have different rules and different strengths and weaknesses. And what's interesting is if you look at 100 years ago when phones became popular, there were all these articles that said no one will ever have a real conversation on a telephone because you can't see each other face to face. And at the time, they were right. If you look at early transcripts, it's people using phones like telegraphs or sending stock orders and grocery lists to each other.

42:21But, of course, by the time we're in middle school and our kids, we can have phone conversations that are some of the deepest conversations of our life. And it's because we learned how to use phones. And when you're talking on the phone, you tend to, without realizing it, overemphasize your words a little bit more. You put more emotion into your voice because you know the person can't see your expressions. And when it comes to digital communications, the same thing is true. There are certain rules. If I say something sarcastic to you, you can hear the sarcasm in my voice. If I type something sarcastic, you're going to take it seriously and you're going to be pissed off.

42:54And so we just have to remind ourselves of what those rules are, that there's some conversations that have to be telephone, have to be face-to-face. And if we do them online, then we have to overemphasize politeness. We have to overemphasize emotion. We have to underemphasize sarcasm. So first off, I think storytelling. Someone asked me, what is the core confidence you would want to give to your kids? We've been thinking a lot about high school curriculum. And hands down, and I am going to buy your book and give it to my two sons. I think the confidence that will stand the test of time is storytelling.

43:26You're on a podcast with two people who've made their livings storytelling. storytelling. What, if you buy into that and you have sons or daughters and you want them to become great storytellers, what exercises or what hacks would you recommend for acquiring that skill? Yeah, it's a great question. And the first thing to understand is what happens when we communicate. So when we're in a conversation, the reason it's powerful, and communication is Homo sapiens superpower, right? It is the thing that has set us apart from every other species. When we're talking to each other, our bodies start to match each other.

43:58During this conversation, without us realizing it, our breath patterns are matching each other. Our heart rates are starting to align. And most importantly, the neural activity, the brain activity that both of us have, all of us have, are starting to mirror each other. And within neurology, that's known as neural entrainment. And then when you think about it, it makes sense. Because if I describe an emotion to you, if I describe an idea, you actually experience that idea or that emotion a little bit. That's what makes it powerful. and that's our brains aligning. So when it comes to storytelling, the thing to keep in mind is my goal is not necessarily to tell you the most polished story on earth.

44:35My goal is to take you on a journey with me, right? Many people who, when they tell stories, they focus on the beginning and the end, but it's the middle, the journey through the middle that makes it a story. If you think about the movie Cinderella, the beginning is the parents, her father dies, that's two minutes. The ending is she lives happily ever after, that's like 45 seconds. The rest of the movie is the middle. And when we bring people on that journey, we invite them to align with us, to entrain neurologically. And that's incredibly powerful. But when people have less of attention, obviously people have less attention now, and especially when they're distracted by a phone or whatever it happens to be.

45:15But distraction is certainly, you know, we're in a persistent partial attention is where we all live now. Does that affect that? Because it's very hard to have. I've had many fewer longer conversations than I used to. I'm starting to talk like I'm starting to text. You know what I mean? Like you have, they're usually more logistical and that kind of thing. What happens in that space? And can people get, like you said, if you can adapt to phones, you can adapt to social media too. Absolutely. How to communicate well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and time is less important than authenticity. So if I tell you that, like, you know, I had this incident with my wife and we couldn't hear each other and I went to these researchers and I talked to them, that takes me 40 seconds to explain, but it's a little bit of a story.

46:03You get to come with me. You get to envision me and my wife not getting along because that's probably something that happens with you guys and your wives, right? Right? And so... Never. Never, never. I'm sorry, go ahead. And so I think what happens is that, particularly when we're on social media, if we use social media as a way to simply broadcast, to scream, rather than to interact, we'll fall into that pattern throughout our life because it becomes a habit. And so the thing to do is to remind ourselves that the goal of a conversation is not to convince the other person that you are right and they are wrong.

46:36It's not to impress them. It's not for them to like you. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand how they see the world and speak in a way that they understand how you see the world. And when you hold yourself to that standard, I'm not going to continue or discontinue this conversation until I can try and understand what you're saying and help you understand me. It makes everything healthier. Can I do a follow-up? We're obviously in election year. It seems like candidates are not doing that. It's a dunk, dunk, dunk. no one ever listens, you know, even more so than anybody else. Of all public-facing people, they're the worst, I think.

47:12Is there anyone who's a super communicator that you see on the campaign trail? Well, what's really interesting is if you go to rallies, and this is true of both Trump and Biden, and you pay attention to when they get off script, what they're doing is they're proving that they're listening, right? Trump, you know, setting aside what he's saying and the craziness coming out of his mouth. When that audience applauds, he leans into the applause. He leans into whatever he's saying. That's why he starts saying all these crazy things. He's proving to them that he's listening to them. And Biden's doing the same thing in his rallies, and he's trying to do it right now with his public statements.

47:46You're exactly right. One of the reasons I wrote this book is because we have forgotten how to communicate, right? This used to be taught in schools. Your parents took a course called home ec or interpersonal relations, And as schools got more technical, it fell out of the curriculums. But this is important. And our brain is designed to be amazing at communication. If we teach it the right skills, it makes it into a habit very quickly. And so super communicators is about that handful of skills that we know helps you connect with other people. Yeah, it's interesting. I do think you learn to communicate without talking.

48:19Something I've learned of having smaller children is we talk a lot but not speaking, right? You know what I mean? There's a lot of non-communication communication happening. Scott, final question for you. Yeah, just, Charles, I know very little about you. Do you have kids? I do. I have a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old. Oh, you're in the midst of it. You're in your second tour of Iraq and Vietnam right now. That's exactly right. How has your study of being a super communicator and the best and worst practices changed the way you interact with your children? It's actually transformed it. And in two ways.

48:52The first thing is that I mentioned that deep questions. And what that really is, is it's about asking not about the facts of someone's life, but how they feel about their life. And I used to ask my kids, like, how was your day? Fine. Did you learn anything at school? No. Did you have fun? No. Right? You guys had this. Like, it's like pulling teeth to have a conversation with them. And then I started asking, instead of about the facts of their day, I started saying things like, hey, I know that you hung out with Jasper after school. Like, what do you admire about Jasper? Why do you like him? And suddenly it's like opening this book.

49:22You know, my kid is like, oh, he's very courageous. What does courage mean? Well, he rode his bike off the roof. I'm like, oh, is that courage? Or what else has he done? Oh, it turns out Jasper can talk to girls. And I prove that I'm listening to them. I ask them these deep questions about how they feel about their life because they're experts in that. And then I repeat back to them. I say, oh, that's interesting. What do you mean by courage? I prove to them that I'm paying attention, that I want to learn from them. And they're not annoyed by that? They're not annoyed. No, they love it. They love it, right?

49:53I mean, you have older kids, Carrie. You know, like when they're teenagers, they're just bursting at the seams to be experts on things and to share their expertise with you. And the thing they're an expert on is their own life. Yeah, that is fair. That's true. So give us a little review here. Are Scott and I super communicators? You guys are super communicators, Park Short and Art. I mean, the thing is, I've been listening to some of the podcasts that you've been doing, Cara, for your book. And the thing I love about it is that you go in and you have something to say, right? You're coming in not just waiting for a question.

50:25You're coming in with something you want to share. But at the same time, you're also listening to that host. You're interacting with them. And you guys might not walk away completely agreeing with each other, but you walk away understanding and connecting with each other. Yeah. So you guys are definitely super communicators. Give everybody one quick tip before we go. What's the one thing you have to do? The one thing you have to do is today ask a question that you wouldn't have asked otherwise and make it a question that feels to you like it's personal. Scott does that well. Yeah. Why did you decide to become a journalist?

51:01What was it like growing up wherever you grew up? What do you love about your neighborhood? Those questions are an invitation to someone else to tell you who they really are. Yeah, I think I told Scott this, something Louis does, my son does. everyone he asks, and I borrowed it because I think it works really well. He looks at someone he doesn't know, and he says, how is your day going? And I have to tell you, it changes dynamics constantly where we're at rather than just rush past them. It works. It works. It's powerful. It is very much so. Anyway, Charles Duhigg, Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection is out now.

51:35Thanks, Charles. Thanks for having me. All right, Scott. That was interesting. He's an interesting, that's a good book. I like his books a lot, a lot of the stuff he wrote and his stories at the Times and now at The New Yorker. Anyway, we'll be back for wins and fails.

51:56Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You go first this week. Well, so first, I just want to close the loop on Charles. So I do think that storytelling is the core competence that's going to stand the test of time. I think the two of us have made extraordinary livings and have interesting lives and influence because of our storytelling capability. Storytelling is not only incredibly important, but storytellers are super attractive to the other sex because they're important to survival of the species, as is the reason that Mick Jagger gets to bang a woman 50 years his junior. Anyway, I kind of lost the thread there.

52:33Yeah, I was like, wait a minute. Well, he's a great storyteller. That's true. That's the bottom line. But also just a pro tip to the young men and young women out there in dating. A mistake I always made on a date was I always felt like I had to fill every silence with words. And I was constantly talking and asking questions. And here's what I think is a hack in dating and mating early on. Be really comfortable with silence. And I would be at dinners and there'd be a pause in the conversation and I would just stare. I would just stop and just stare politely and smile nicely at my date until it almost became uncomfortable.

53:13And she would say, what's going on or why are you smiling? I think I just enjoy listening. It says I'm confident. It says I don't need to fill every word. And then to just be very emotive and say, you know, I just like looking at you or I just like listening to you. Scott, I just like looking at you. It's because of the spray tan. By the way, if anyone's ever depressed out there, my first piece of advice when people call me and say I'm peeling room down, I'm like, have you thought about a spray tan? Did you get a spray tan? Because things can change. Did you actually get a spray tan? Things can change.

53:45No, but I do use man makeup. I use that Clinique bronzer. Oh, it looks good. I use it with the Chanel moisturizer, and I look fucking radiant. Oh, yeah. Look at me. I look 48 today, not 49. Yeah, okay. Anyways, silence. Young men and young women, embrace it. It reflects confidence. Okay, good. Now your wins and fails. Go ahead. Anyways, my win is this multilateral defense of Israel. This guy, Ambassador James Jeffrey, I think it's from the Wilson Center, kind of summed it up for me. He said, the Iranians, by their massive but failed military response to Israel's Damascus strike, have brought the entire October 7th Gaza discussion back to the key underlying factor, Iran and its proxy.

54:28Iran on its proxies decades-long effort to dominate the region and tank stability at the expense of Arab states and of Turkey, Israel, and the United States and Europe. 300 projectiles. Not one made it through. Shrapnel of one injured a seven-year-old girl. This was American aircraft carriers took out drones. American F-15s took out drones. The Israeli Iron Dome and the Aeros defense systems. Jordanians took down drones over. Most of these things never even got into Israeli airspace. When the West and its allies coordinate, we are an insurmountable force. See Ukraine. But go ahead. I mean, Israel has the technical superiority, the most vibrant economy, and the most potent political system in terms of its allies.

55:18And the fact that everyone got together, regardless of what they think of the current administration and said, there's a bad administration, and then there's someone sowing chaos throughout the region. And for them to coordinate in such a sophisticated manner with this type of success, it is a real moment of victory for the West. So that's my win. My fail is I'm becoming incredibly, what's the term, Bernie Sanders around. I've been thinking a lot about Daniel Kahneman and our tax policy, it's gone from, I mean, every year taxes get lower on corporations and the wealthy for the most part. And Daniel Kahneman's research showed that essentially there is a correlation between money and happiness.

56:06Absolutely. Middle-income people are happier than lower-income. Wealthy are happier than middle-income. But at a certain point, the returns diminish. And it just got me thinking, if you, and this is part of my presentation, if above call it$5 or$10 million, you don't get any incremental happiness, but the difference between$30 and$50 grand for a low-income family is extraordinary in terms of their well-being and happiness, then why on earth would we not have marginal tax rates of 90 % above a certain level. I mean, it might be 10 million, but if you're not giving up anything at that level, but you're redistributing a massive amount of goodwill, health, and happiness, I've all of a sudden kind of gone back to where Eisenhower was and that at a certain income level, we should have pretty aggressive tax rates.

56:57And the thing that we don't get in the U.S. is we figured out the hard part, whether it's child poverty, universal pre-K, homelessness, veterans affairs. There are nations all over the world that have figured out these issues. The hard part is the resources. And the fact that we can grow the economy by a quarter of a trillion dollars in a five-minute earnings call means we've actually got the hard part figured out. So I think that what I'll call my fail is the weaponization or the lie that we can't figure these problems out and that progressive or non-progressive tax rates somehow result in greater well-being for the nation.

57:41They don't. The incremental, from going from$10 to$20 million, you get absolutely no utility. You get absolutely no happiness. So my fail is this myth that's been fomented in this part of the zeitgeist that we need that lower taxes on the wealthiest and on corporations is part and parcel of a growing economy and important for people's well-being and happiness? It's not. It doesn't add any incremental happiness to anybody. And if you look on the corporate side, the higher the tax rate, the more reinvestment there is in the company. Because if you have 50 % corporate tax rates, companies go, well, why wouldn't we take a chance and open another plant or hire more people?

58:20because we get kind of 50 % off. So my fail is this tired, outdated, and false mythology that really low tax rates on the most profitable companies and our mega earners somehow add value back to the Commonwealth. They don't. They reduce our happiness. Oddly enough, Mark Cuban, of course, just tweeted about his taxes. I pay what I owe tomorrow. I will transfer to the IRS$288 million. I'm a country I've done so much for me. I'm proud to pay my taxes every single year. tag a former president you know who doesn't. He actually corrected his 276 million rather than 288. But I thought that was funny.

58:57My win is obviously your new book, The Algebra of Wealth. I want everybody to read it. I haven't had time to look at it yet because I just got it in the mail. I'm very excited to read it. I'm very excited. It's for your boys. You're done. You don't need to read it. You're done. It's for your boys. They'll read it. I was just thinking I'm going to give it to Alex in a second once I look through it. But I'm excited to look at it. I'm excited for your book. And I'm excited to talk about your book. I know you have a lot of events. And I will probably be attending one of your events as opposed to someone else who didn't communicate super with me.

59:29Anyway, I probably will. And then my fail, you know, right now, I don't know if you know this, but right now, Tesla, it's laying off 10 % of its workforce right now. It's today. And And a number of executives are leaving. Senior vice president, 18-year company, veterans leaving. Another one, Rohan Patel, is leaving. He ran business development. This was a company that was really on the cutting edge, and he's lost the way. And that's all we were saying. And this is going to lead with competition, with people obviously not keeping up in terms of new products, not taking your eye off the ball. It's a shame.

1:00:08It's a damn shame that it was inevitable they're going to lose some market share because that's the way it goes because he's pioneered an industry incredibly. But this is a fail because it didn't quite have to happen this way, even though everyone's cutting back in this area. It just shows you that if you take your eye off a ball of a really exciting product, you can really get into trouble. And I don't think that's with any rancor towards this person. It's a shame because this is an industry-leading company away from the stock price, away from his toxic, this and that. So it's a real fail on his behalf for taking his eye off the ball, I think, personally.

1:00:44So that is, I wish it wasn't a fail in a lot of ways, oddly enough. Well, but to be fair, those people who've been there 15 or 18 years, they have recognized enormous, even with the drawdown of the stock, they have enormous, they have recognized enormous miss economic security, which is what a for-profit company is for. So those people have done really well. Yep, absolutely. Anyway, they have done really well, but they needed to make changes, and that's what they did. And 10 % of the workforce is going to suffer for it. Anyway, but that's fine. That's what happens, unfortunately. In any case, we want to hear from you.

1:01:16Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Don't forget to vote for us in the Webby Awards at the link in the description. We need to be number one because it will fill the giant empty space in our souls. Okay, Scott, we would like to win. We would like to win. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more. Meanwhile, this week on Prof G, you can check out Scott's interview with Georgetown professor Cal Newport to hear his ideas on slow productivity. And for On With Kara Swisher, as I said, we'll bring you my conversation with Jonathan Haidt.

1:01:51Anyway, please read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Nertat, engineer in this episode. Thanks also to Drew Rose and Emil Severio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine, Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you to His Majesty King Abdullah II and the good people of Jordan for your support of America and its allies.

1:02:27Thank you.