Trump's AI Stake, SpaceX's IPO Froth, and Apple's Siri Overhaul

20:52Kara Swisher:But it is about like they'll get more out of it. Now, two things I'd love you to talk about. Look, Trump's at the very end of this. We're at the end of the, you know, the king is falling down, right, on a daily basis. He looks quite sick. Let's not pretend he doesn't look like he had a stroke or something. Something happened to him. And so it's at the tail end. You see the Republicans pushing back. You see the polling, which is really significant, even among female conservatives, male conservatives, farmers, like all his thing breaking down. Why would you double down on him right now? Because it seems like you'll get the reputational hit.

21:30Kara Swisher:Because afterwards, when the Democrats come in, they're not going to forget. And by the way, probably the attorney generals will file a suit while we're taping this to slow down the merger. And it will slow down the merger. So why would you do it now? Like, if you're as smart as Larry Elson is, and trust us when we tell you he's very smart, why would you do it? It seems like the dumb bet right now. Yeah, I don't think it is, Cara. Keep in mind. Tell me why. The deal hasn't closed yet. Right. It has to close. The deal hasn't closed. If Brendan Carr gets a call from Trump saying, I'm having second thoughts about media consolidation, the deal hasn't closed.

22:10And Trump has shown a willingness to violate all norms, not afraid of court battles, maybe gets overturned in court in a year or two years, at which point CBS continues to hemorrhage viewership. Trump can absolutely kill this deal. Trump can call Ellison and basically say, I want you to cancel Big Bang Theory and he would do it right now. And I'm trying to come up with a CBS show like the new Matlock, whatever it is. Right, yeah. And I think Larry calls his son and goes, kill this show. Because if this deal doesn't go through and it doesn't close, I mean, so one, he has very strong short-term incentive to be supportive of Trump.

22:50And two, they still have two and a half, you know, you still have two and a half years left and nothing proves. I mean, think about all the guys that showed up that we mocked, all the tech executives from Satya Nadella to Altman. Did tariffs affect any of them?

23:06Kara Swisher:No. Any of them? They got contracts with government. They got this. They got that. They got everything they wanted. And Jensen Huang, I'm going to take you to China and try and get you to sell chips. And now the Chinese are saying, fuck you, we're not going to buy your chips. There has never been a return, not CapEx, not AI, not plant property equipment, like investing in Trump right now. That is what a good autocrat does. Right now, okay. What happens come November? If the Democrats win the way they think, if they even win half of what they're going to win, there's going to be hell to pay. Or maybe they don't think there is.

23:39Here's the problem. Graham Plattner. Graham Plattner has had a series of really disturbing accusations against him by various women. Okay. The problem is we apply a purity test to ourselves and to our candidates that the Republicans don't apply. And as a result, they feel safer. We threat lock her up. Have you heard, we don't have chance of lock him up at Democratic. We're better than that. And I get it. I like that. But the reality is the incentives are the following right now. Get what you can. Get in with Trump. Get your money. The Democrats are fucking pussies. And that was the wrong word to use.

24:29Kara Swisher:That's all right. The Democrats, they'll feel bad for us and they'll try and understand us and they'll haul us in front of Congress fine. But the upside here is so much greater than the downside. We're dealing with an autocrat. Right. It's a risk assessment. I do. A hundred percent. Let me make a little prediction here. We should probably move on in the thing. But I think the Democrats are much more less supposed to anything. I hope so. I have talked to a lot of them and they're like sharpening the knife. Well, let me ask you this. Do you think they should replace Blatner right now? So we have our high ground?

25:02Kara Swisher:No. No. No. You know I don't. And I have an argument with my wife about it. No. I don't. I don't. I think the voters in Maine should decide. That's my feeling. I always feel like the voters should decide. And if they make bad decisions, they have to live with it. Right? If they had picked Pratt, they have to fucking live with it in Los Angeles. And I know the rest, everyone who didn't vote for them have to live with it. But I'm a firm believer in voters. I just am. Always. I always feel like they always get it. ultimately. And I think pundits and everyone else that doesn't often get it. Sometimes they do.

25:34Kara Swisher:Sometimes they're very canny. But I just feel like, to me, you're betting on someone who's about to collapse. And I feel it. We've been saying that for a while, Kara. No. Look at him. Look at him. It's going down. I don't think he looks that. Do you really think he looks that bad? I'm not talking about him. Yes, I think he looks that bad. He looks really bad. But that's not what I was talking about. I'm not talking about death. I'm not like, whatever. He's old. He's going to die within 10 years. So whatever. It's going to somewhere in there, somewhere in there. And but the numbers, I'm looking at the polls.

26:09Kara Swisher:And a year ago, I said, I think his polling is going to collapse. And it has collapsed. And so that's what I'm looking at is voters. Voters don't like this shit. And I think they are sticking their chin out so far with all their nonsense. Why would you fire competent people? It looks, and also it creates, listen, CBS's other executives are furious because it's ruining the CBS brand, which is a very successful, it's done okay in the network with all their old people shows. They're doing okay. And so I think you're starting to see leaks from, you know, there was one from this woman who was running CBS Entertainment.

26:46Kara Swisher:You sort of started seeing it from other news. You're just starting to see it. And this could mess up the deal itself because of the heat on this, on the other side, right? It'll embolden more people from 60 Minutes to speak out. It'll embolden more stories. And let me tell you, folks, there's more shoes about to drop. I hear about everything. And so it's going to be a continuing leak, leak, leak. And if you remember the Chris Lick thing, and I just think David Zasla is just quicker to fold, right? But it took Jeff Bezos two years to fold on Will Lewis. but eventually it messes up the brand and they happen to have other things.

27:24Kara Swisher:Now, Jeff just has the Washington Post so he could hold out for two years. But Zaslav was starting to feel the pain elsewhere. And so that, to me, is the problem. And then David looks dumb. And David looking dumb to daddy is not a good thing for him. You know what I mean? And so that's why I think there's a lot more at play here. And I do think the Democrats will extract something from them in a way. I don't think they're as weak as you think they are. And from hearing from them, bygones is not in their vocabulary right now. It is, we will now be coming around and remembering what you did. So maybe they won't do it, but that's the tone I get from them.

28:03Kara Swisher:So we'll see. Anyway, I really enjoyed your idea of what they're doing, and you're absolutely right. The business way to look at this. Just to talk more about 60. So four of the seven, I think four of the seven anchors have left. And the key executives, the editors, the key editors who you don't know their names, but critical. That's really the heart and lungs. But the 75, what you call, staff, editors, junior producers, statisticians did it. None of them have left. They can't leave. Let's be clear. They have jobs. It's not a big market. Right. And they have mortgages. I know exactly what the Ellisons did here.

28:42They called them and said, they called Leslie Stahl and said, Leslie, you're an icon. Things are tumultuous. We promise we'll let you do whatever you want. And by the way, if you just stick around another 12 months until things settle down, there's another$5 million bonus for you. That's what I would have done. And I'm sure that call took place. And then they called the 12 critical people at the rank and file and said, look, tell everyone that when there's this kind of tumult and the top of the pyramid gets chopped off, there's a tremendous sucking sound upward. And they would be stupid not to hang around to see what additional opportunities emerge.

29:12And people will always think about themselves before they think about the brave new world of the attack on journalism. They have mortgages to pay. They have college funds to fund. And this is what will happen. Just as we thought all the noise in social media was going to dictate the mayoral race, all the noise around 60 is going to come down to the following. If the first six or dozen episodes in the fall are good, 60 will be fine. And if they're not, that thing will collapse under the weight of all this controversy. So it's going to be about the product, full stop.

29:46Kara Swisher:If you can make the product, because you do need those correspondents. And maybe they can't. You know more about this than I do. Well, I know the people they're calling because I'm hearing from everyone they're calling. And none of them want to go there. They're calling some interesting people who are good. But all of them are like, I'm not selling my fucking reputation with these clowns. Well, how do they get guests? And also, I never miss an opportunity to make myself feel important. I was approached about a role at 60 Minutes. And what did I say? I'd break your arm, correct? Well, and I said no fucking way.

30:17I don't want to be. That's like the last thing. If you're, I mean, quite frankly, why the fuck is Leslie Stahl staying?

30:25Kara Swisher:Well, can I give a word on that and then we'll move on? I know Leslie really well. She used to come to all my conferences. She's really terrific. She was trying an internet thing a couple years ago, and I helped her with it. She's not texting me back, let's just say. Leslie, I've helped you a lot. I really feel irritated by the fact that you won't even text me back, but that's another issue. I think I predicted she would do this, and everyone said I was wrong. But listen, this is the end of her career. She wants that retrospective of her career next year or the year after. She wants the party.

30:56Kara Swisher:She does have a loyalty to the place. She's been there so long. And so she feels by staying, she's protecting it. Like at least someone's here to hold it back and watch them. And I think that's genuine. I do. I think it's genuine with her. You cut her over and she blades 60 minutes, right? So I think that's in her thing. And she wants that. Like if she left now, there'd be no retrospective. There'd be no end of her career. And I think she wants that. That's from a sort of selfish point of view. From the other point of view, she thinks she can save it. She can at least protect it for the time being until she'll wait them out.

31:30Kara Swisher:My problem is they're going to go just around her. They're just going to go around her. And I don't think she realizes that, how much they're—as canny and smart and tough as she is, she doesn't have as much leverage by staying. And that is—I think she made a mistake, but I thought she would stay. So that's my take on it. So I don't know because I haven't talked to her. I'm glad you didn't go. Thank you. I would have not been happy about that. Under the auspices of the latest episode of Don't These People Have Friends, Leslie Stahl is an icon. Leslie Stahl is 84. Between 1 % and 2 % of 84-year-olds work full-time.

32:06By the time you're 87, it's less than 1%. Leslie Stahl may live another 20 years. She's going to be working full-time for a matter of years, if not months. And I know that sounds ageist. I am an ageist, and so is biology. She shouldn't be buying green bananas at this point. Now, as a friend, a friend should say to her, Leslie, you put out the following memo. I have loved and appreciated and feel blessed to have been a part of this organization. I am proud and did my best regarding my work here. It is time for me to leave. and everyone else would have filled in the blanks in every fucking room she would have walked into for the rest of her life, she would have got a standing ovation.

32:57Instead, now under some narcissistic notion that she's going to be able to control what happens in every production meeting, oh my God, how naive are you? She had a chance to put the world's greatest dot on top of an exclamation point at the end of a career and she's missed it. This was the perfect, perfect exit to a storied career. I'm not angry. I'm not shitposting her for staying. I'm shitposting her for not taking an unbelievable opportunity to put a Tiffany ribbon, to put a Tiffany ribbon on the aquamarine blue box that was her Tiffany career. Yes. What a missed opportunity.

33:38Kara Swisher:Goodbye, sir. Like that kind of thing. Good day. Good day, sir. Good day, sir. Can I ask you? I want you to say what they wanted you to do on 60 Minutes, which cracks me the fuck up. Because it's not to do the, like, big interviews with Trump or do the investigative pieces where you dress up in a beer. Just for people to know. What did they want from Professor Galloway? To do one or more of those Andy Rooney segments. Yeah. So you're Andy Rooney. You know what really bothers me about soda pop is? And by the way, let me be clear. I grew up watching 60 Minutes with my mother. Had someone called me 12 or 24 months ago and offered me that role, I would have just, I would have said, I'll pay you.

34:20What do you want? What do you want? What do you want me to do? I would have, that would have been, literally other than hosting a podcast with you, that would have been my crowning achievement professionally. And now I'm not, I'm not going to add to this chorus of unqualified people, this cosplaying journal. I'm like, the last fucking thing I want to do is wake up. To social media after they hear that I'm joining, I'm having anything to do with this shit show right now.

34:50Kara Swisher:Yeah. And you were scared of me, right? Were you scared of me? Not really. Ish. Ish. Ish. I just would have yelled at you. No, no, no. You know what? Can I just say? You're better than that. That's how I feel. And quite frankly, I think I like the people there more than you do. I don't have a, you know, I actually. I like some of them. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm like, this is the last fucking thing I want to be associated with right now. Yeah. Anyways, anyway, you're stuck with me, Cara. I know, I love it, I love it. You can do 60 Minutes things here, and you can do them about penises, so you couldn't do it there.

35:25Kara Swisher:I'm just saying. Anyway, we're going to move on. Really interesting story, but I appreciate your business thing. I was so struck by it last night when you called me. Anyway, we're going to go on a quick break. When we come back, the SpaceX IPO approaches.

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38:48Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. I thought you did a great job sort of analyzing the SpaceX IPO. It really helped me and a lot of people were telling me that. But the company is expected to begin trading on the NASDAQ this Friday in what could be the largest IPO in history. A lot of moving parts. A couple of things we've learned in the last few days. SpaceX has set its share price at$135, giving the company a valuation of roughly$1.77 trillion. You said it would be under$2 trillion. It won't be fast-tracked onto the S &P 500. This is a new development after the index decided not to change its rules for these mega-cap IPOs.

39:19Kara Swisher:Thank you. They probably got a lot of pushback from people. And there's more. Our SpaceX also made a major deal with Google selling off its seed corn. Google will pay SpaceX$920 million a month over the next three years for computing power. That includes access to at least 110 ,000 NVIDIA chips. Elon was smart to grab those. This is similar to a deal that SpaceX recently made with Anthropics. So it's becoming an infrastructure provider, essentially. Google, which is already an investor in SpaceX, everybody is, by the way, is calling this a short-term timely agreement to ensure they can keep up with surging AI demand.

39:50Kara Swisher:They will go get their own stuff later and they're not going to rent it. But talk about what's happening now and what you see happening in the next, because it's the next week and the deal. And we're going to talk a lot about the IPO on Friday, obviously. But right now, going into it, how are you looking at it? It's just so interesting. And my judgment is clouded because I've been so wrong about Elon Musk's adventures in the market. And I haven't fully appreciated what a meme stock he is and everything he touches. so look alphabet agreed to pay spacex almost a billion dollars a month for compute capacity from xai data centers what's interesting is that they overbuilt and it ends up that's fine because they can just rent the capacity out to someone else at probably a higher price than they originally anticipated like spacex's current multiple it's going out at 94 times revenues the deal would value a deal that would total at least you know one trillion an additional market cap from if you just valued this, what it should trade out versus its competitors, even being generous.

40:53What does it matter for Alphabet? It owns a 6 % stake in SpaceX, which it purchased in 2015. And they did this when the company was valued at just$12 billion. So 6 % of a$1 trillion in market cap is about$60 billion or more than 5X. Yeah.

41:08Kara Swisher:And remember when Yahoo had the Google stake? That was one of the big things they got out of it. Anyway, they had a big stake in Google. By them agreeing to purchase this compute, when you look at the multiple, for every dollar they spend on compute, they're technically getting five back in the increase in the value of their stake in SpaceX. Right, yeah. So we talk about these circular deals, but this one looks like a no-brainer for Google. So, look, I think SpaceX's multiple will deflate dramatically as revenues grow, but the point stands. Alphabet has a vested interest in SpaceX's revenues going up.

41:45And then, look, I think in the last just seven days, maybe 14, there has been a dramatic vibe shift. Oh, interesting. And that is this study that came out at MIT that said 95 % of CFOs are stating that they're not getting the return they'd initially anticipated.

42:05Kara Swisher:In AI. In AI. Yep. I was on a webinar hosted by Section talking about AI. And the comments I would describe is whenever people come in and talk about the brave new world of AI, it's like a giant fucking eye roll. People are really in the business world are starting to sour on the brave new world of AI. And this won't be the same litmus test directly as Anthropic or OpenAI. And I'm curious if you sense this, but I sense a little bit of like, you know what? this is beginning to feel like bullshit. The job apocalypse everyone's been predicting is not here. The notion that this is going to change absolutely everything, the idea that we're going to have one-person companies that could be billion-dollar unicorns.

42:59Kara Swisher:Right, remember that one. I had the CEO of Lilian. He said AI's ability to accelerate drug discovery is vastly overhyped. I just wonder if people are beginning to say, okay, this is beginning to feel a little 99. It feels like there's been a tangible vibe shift around AI in the last few weeks. And then how does it affect the SpaceX IPO? Because there's other businesses in here. Is it just because this is an AI IPO? Well, the AI that's got attached to it, as I refer to affectionately as a money furnace, is, I mean, there's no doubt. He's saddled. He's turned a great space business into a company hemorrhaging money because he's going to try and fund and play catch up in AI.

43:45What's interesting is it looks like he's got a rib cord here in the form that he's now renting out his infrastructure. But nothing feels or says froth in a market like a 94 times revenue valuation.

43:59Kara Swisher:Right. But is that Elon or AI? Is it just the Elon-ness of it? I think the answer is yes. I think Elon plus AI plus rockets. In the rocket business or the Starlink business is a great business. But my God, 94 times revenues. So what happens, give me like the day of, the week after, and the six months after. Everyone is predicting trough after, like pretty quickly after, relatively quickly after, not immediately. You know, I've gotten this so wrong, Kara, but people have called me and asked me if they should participate in the IPOs. They've got allocation. I said I wouldn't get near SpaceX. And if you do, I would sell on the first trade.

44:39I think SpaceX is about to hit a 10-year high on the minute it goes public, meaning it'll be all downhill from there. I just don't see how it just – even with Elon and AI and rockets, I don't see how it just –

44:50Kara Swisher:And he's going to put robots everywhere, cars. You know, all the promises are still that. And they're tough ones. They're tough promises he's got. A hundred percent. The one I'm most or least sanguine about or least pessimistic on is Anthropa because the momentum is so dramatic there. So you'd buy into that? I would buy into the IPO. I'm not sure it'd be a long-term hold based on the valuation it's going at. Right. And open AI? I think if one of them struggles and could be a broken IPO, I think it could be open AI. I think the momentum is so negative. Yeah. SpaceX is a conglomerate, so it's harder to tease apart.

45:23Kara Swisher:And Elon. It's Elon. Yeah, investors, I mean, one of the reasons you might be seeing a decline in the crypto market right now is all of those people are selling to buy into the SpaceX IPO. I mean, you're also probably going to see a decline in the larger market for tech stocks because I think so much capital is going to be sucked up by these guys. But Elon has, look, it's a cult. And it's the same, I wonder what's going to happen to Bitcoin because that has a culty feel to it. And I think a lot of Elon stands are Bitcoin holders and are going to fund their SpaceX purchases with sales of Bitcoin.

45:58Kara Swisher:Right, right. So that's another thing. Yeah. So anyway, so we'll see what happens. We'll be talking about it on Friday. But so you say it goes out at 135 and it drops? Because they're having some punitive stuff if you sell it too quickly, too. Well, there's all sorts of lockups that people are being asked to commit to. I think Elon and his banks will probably create enough artificial scarcity to manufacture a pop. But I think six, 12, five years down the road, five years is tough. I wouldn't get near this thing. And if you do get allocation, look at the first trade. Consider getting out on the first trade.

46:34Kara Swisher:And the index hurts it, right? The lack of being in the index funds now. Well, that would have been additional demand out front. But, you know, every IPO up until now has not been in the S &P. So technically that shouldn't hurt. and there was complaints about it being, you know, you were being forced to buy it if it went into the S &P because of the people's old index funds. It'll be super interesting, but 94 times, okay, Amazon, incredible company. A lot of people think it's overvalued. What's a trade-out, four and a half times revenue? I like that you like math still after all these years. And interestingly, speaking of what you were just saying, Donald Trump is looking into the government stake in AI companies.

47:12Kara Swisher:Oh, buy at the top. So American people can, quote, benefit from the success of AI. He says leaders of all the big AI companies are coming to the White House as early this week to discuss the idea. I mean, it's such a socialist thing. Open AI in the White House are in ongoing talks about government stake, according to CNBC. This is something that Sam Altman has been floating for a while. He needs the help, as you were just noting. Altman was in D.C. last week and met with Senator Bernie Sanders, who's been pitching a similar plan because he's, you know, a socialist. Sanders is proposing a sovereign wealth fund creating a one-time 50 % tax on the stock of AI companies, giving the public a direct ownership sake.

47:49Kara Swisher:Talk to me about this because I don't love it. I feel like, what? I get that, for example, the government gave a loan to Tesla when it was in trouble and didn't get anything back for it and Elon got all the juicies. But that's what the government is there for. And they got their loan paid back, but they didn't get a stake. And I think that was okay. But I don't know. What do you think? It is very easy once you get elected and everyone thinks you're great and you have power to start thinking you can control industrial policy and start picking winners and losers. It is very tempting. That's socialism.

48:20You control the means of production. When you do that and you start believing you're better than the private market and the full-body contact violence of capitalist private markets, you end up with warehouses in Ireland full of unsold DeLoreans and Air France. It does not work. If you want to support an industry like the CHIPS Act, everyone gets the same opportunity and the same subsidies. If you want to support the EV market and you give tax credits and subsidies, everyone's available to it. When you put a golden share into U.S. Steel or invest in Intel, you have decided you're smarter than the market.

48:54You are always, always wrong. This is socialism. This is cronyism. It never works for the economy. At the same time, Bernie Sanders is equally wrong. Taxes that are industry-specific don't work. They came up with the same nonsense idea around oil and gas when they were printing money in the 70s and 80s. Because then what happens? Is Microsoft an AI company? If we start producing podcasts where they are, are we an AI company? Is Apple an AI company? We need a more progressive tax structure that taxes our most successful companies, whether it's Anthropic or whether it's Apple or whether it's Novo Nordisk or whether it's Eli Lilly.

49:34We need a more. Yeah. But when you go industry-specific taxation doesn't work because then capital starts picking industries based on taxes, not where the greatest return or innovation is. It is bullshit populism going after a specific industry. It creates a ton of bureaucratic unnatural acts across capital allocation.

49:52Kara Swisher:Why AI? Why don't we own like the hot dog franchise? What about cigarette companies? Yeah. I know. What else can we have? McDonald's. Americans like McDonald's. Let's have a more progressive tax rate for McDonald's and Anthropic and OpenAI. Yeah, why not others? That's it. Industry-specific taxation doesn't work. And if you want to invest in native industries or orphan industries or industries that have strategic importance, fine. But when Donald Trump, a failed business person, gets into the business— Like mRNA technology, which they took away stuff. Like, that's already getting a lot of private funding, but it needs government funding.

50:27The CHIPS Act made sense. It makes sense. But everybody gets access to it, right? Every company, you're not picking winners and losers. And so just as Trump is trying to pick winners, that is no better nor any worse than Sanders trying to pick losers and deciding what—

50:42Kara Swisher:Why is Altman going to the White House to do it? Because he needs the support, right? It gives him support. It gives him a little bit of stable support. Stable support. The biggest bailout since the banking industry bailout will be the following. but it'll be positioned as growth. There will be some sort of government-backed debt offering or backstop for AI companies who can't afford the infrastructure spent they have committed to when it's clear these valuations are not going to hold up. And also Trump realizes the entire economy he has bet on AI. The biggest bailout that'll be positioned as a quote-unquote growth opportunity for the U.S.

51:17government.

51:18Kara Swisher:The taxpayer will hold it back. Right. Trump will position it I'm a smart businessman. We have an opportunity to invest in this. It is going to be a bailout. We'll be holding the bag. 100%. We'll be holding the fucking bag. I swear to God. We'll privatize the gains and socialize the losses. Because Trump thinks he's smart and thinks he's a good business person. He's always making such bad deals. Oh, I just am like, no, no, no. Let them die. As you said, remember years ago, we were talking about plane. We were talking about airlines. You're like, just let them die and something new will happen.

51:49Kara Swisher:Just like you're thinking about 460 Minutes. New dumb money will show up and say, I want to start an airline called, you know, Hooters. I mean, there's no shortage of people who desire to start airlines. Hooters airline would be good. There was a Hooters airline. Was there? Yeah, you didn't know that? Did you fly? There was a Hooters airline. What? No, I've never been in a Hooters, actually. I'd like to go. I have been in a Hooters because the wings are very good, let me say. They are excellent. Excellent wings. Actually, the ladies are really nice in the Hooters. They do a great job. From what I understand, they do a great job.

52:19Kara Swisher:They are very nice. The ladies of the Hooters are nice. There's a wonderful story about a gay guy, a comic, going into Hooters when his father brought him there to try to man him up. And the ladies immediately understood what the kid was going through and were sweet to him. He said, I will love Hooters people the rest of my life because my dad was trying to man me up. And they understood that I was gay and made me feel wonderful and gave me delicious wings. Anyway, here's to the Hooters, ladies. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Siri gets a makeover.

52:51Support for this show comes from Teleport. Here's a finding that should stop every tech leader cold. Organizations most confident in their AI deployments have more than twice the security incident rate of those that aren't. 72 % versus 33%. That's from Teleport's 2026 Infrastructure Identity Survey of more than 200 infrastructure security leaders. A data breach isn't just a costly endeavor. It can damage trust. The most frequent causes of data breaches are human error and compromised credentials. But in the AI era, agents that are granted broad privileges dramatically increase risk. Solution services like Teleport, an AI infrastructure identity company, provide an identity and access platform that is purpose-built for modern, highly automated environments, which are now deploying agents into production.

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54:02Kara Swisher:This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Choiceology is a show all about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like, can we learn to make smarter decisions? And the power of do-overs. The show is hosted by Katie Milkman. She's an award-winning behavioral scientist, professor at the Wharton School, and author of the best-selling book, How to Change. In each episode, Katie talks to authors, historians, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how we can make better ones to avoid costly mistakes.

54:44Kara Swisher:Listen and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast or find it wherever you listen.

54:55Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from ChiliPad. It's not your morning coffee or your kids making the bus on time or having an empty inbox that gets your day off on the right foot. It's the good sleep you had the night before. Good sleep is the secret sauce to tackle all the things you need to do during the day. and ChiliPad can get you the best kind of sleep. The ChiliPad 2.0 by Sleep Me is a water-based mattress topper that actively controls your bed temperature from 55 to 115 degrees all night long. No new mattress, no renovation. It fits right over what you already had. Actually, I just put it on.

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56:03Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back with more news. As we tape, Apple is planning to announce a Siri overhaul at its annual developers conference. Oh, my God, you think? The new Siri features a chatbot-style app and uses Google Gemini technology AI-powered web search. Siri will be able to understand personal data and analyze on-screen content, and users will be able to return to their prior conversations. A conference is the last of Tim Cook's tenure before he hands the reins to John Ternus. There was a good story about how behind they were. You know, Tim saying they were behind on AI and not doing enough. I think Siri has been one of their worst things they've ever done.

56:39Kara Swisher:It's so useless. I was walking here from the subway. I was in Manhattan this morning doing some meetings. And I got to tell you, Scott, like, it couldn't call Amanda. Like, it can't do things. It sucks. Siri sucks. So, you know, and I'm not going to be happy that it just is workable at this point. I find it useless, and I think Apple has really missed a boat here for many years, for decades even. Your thoughts? Yeah, we've talked about this. I mean, it's right up there with the Cybertruck for the biggest product fails, and that's unusual for Apple. The rebuilt Siri runs on a custom 1.2 trillion parameter Gemini model under a deal worth approximately a billion a year to Google.

57:22and it's a three-tier rooting system that handles queries on device for simple tasks. Apple's private cloud for moderate requests and Google's NVIDIA B200 GPUs are used for heavy reasoning. And they're claiming that new capabilities are multi-step commands, persistent conversation history synced via iCloud and an on-screen awareness. It's being launched as a standalone app for the first time and they've delayed the overall twice. The original AI boss left the company before it shipped. And critics warn that Apple is surrendering AI to Google the same way it surrendered search and deepening the reliance on a competitor.

57:57I would argue it was a smart move because of the licensing deal. And John Ternus, you know, he might switch direction and want to put his mark on this thing. It's a big, it's a maker, I don't know if it's a maker break bet for Apple, but it's important because as of earlier this year, they were the only big tech company whose CapEx decreased from last year. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. But if you think about a market, I mean, I accidentally turn on Siri by hitting the wrong button on my phone 10 times a day, which means it is the most accessible AI in the world. If I'm constantly bringing up AI accidentally on my iPhone, that means it's the most accessible AI in history.

58:43and for them not to be figuring out a way to get some of that AI juju, it feels like a missed opportunity. Even if it means outsourcing all of it to someone else, they should be the front end. And Siri is arguably, at this point, I wonder if Siri needs a rebrand because it's come to be emblematic of something that just doesn't work.

59:07Kara Swisher:It doesn't work. And I do put a lot of trust in Apple in terms of privacy. I'm not worried about interacting with it as much as I am. Like, you load up everything into AI, and I don't. But I feel I trust Apple, but it's incompetent. It's like having, it's a bad assistant. I can't believe it took this long for Tim to have this assessment. But, you know, one would imagine it's critical going forward, especially if they're going into glasses and things like that, you know, that you have this thing that just does what you ask it to do on a basic level. So, you know, there's AI in everything now, and so much of it is so bad.

59:43Kara Swisher:I do think, and it's a missed opportunity because they're so good at everything else. Well, the best experience I've had with Apple AI happened this morning. I was working out, and as always, I was listening to my mix of ELO and REM and NXS. ELO, I love ELO. And CapCut, for some reason, I have the app CapCut on my phone. And Amelia said, learn more about CapCut's editing features. And I'm like, and I just instinctively went, oh, God, fuck off. And Siri responded, I won't respond to that. Oh, yeah, it does that. When you curse at it, it totally has a pull. It was chastised, man. It kind of made me laugh out loud.

1:00:15Kara Swisher:It does that when you call them stupid. When I call them stupid. I won't respond to that. Which I do on a daily basis. It was like, I'm sorry you feel that way. So I've been saying to everyone, I won't respond to that. Anyways, that's the best experience of Apple I have had. Anyway, good luck, Apple. Make it better. We have very low expectations that you will. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

1:00:41Kara Swisher:Support for the show comes from BetterHelp. Summer can be a mix of things. For some, it's about travel, adventure, making memories. For others, juggling everything can feel overwhelming. Kids at home, packed schedules, shifting routines. It's easy to slip into survival mode and wonder where the days are going. Taking time for yourself can make a difference. And therapy can support that. Helping you feel more confident, setting boundaries, and making space to recharge so that summer feels more balanced and enjoyable. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch any time if it's not the right fit.

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1:02:44Kara Swisher:Go to shopify.com slash voxbusiness. That's shopify.com slash voxbusiness.

1:02:57Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, some wins and fails. You go first. Okay. the win I was just struck by this there's all these movies that people are going to the movies for Obsessions and Backrooms which is started on YouTube-y kind of things but they're wonderful I think people really like them I don't think just because they start on YouTube they have to be bad but domestic box office crossed a billion dollars last month a number not seen since before COVID which is interesting and that's without a Marvel movie which I think is nice there's a lot of really interesting things out there that are doing well lots of different interesting movies the big winner right now are the Michael Jackson biopic Michael, which I have not seen because it doesn't include some other stuff about him, I think needs to be there.

1:03:39Kara Swisher:And The Devil Wears Prada 2, starring Kara Swisher, of course. But it's just nice. You're seeing a lot of that. And I've noticed I've gone to the movies recently. I know you don't, but I hadn't. And now I am because I want to see them in the movie theaters. And there's a couple of movies I do want to see in the movies theaters, including the next Top Gun, David Ellison. I think you do. And let me pay you a compliment because I never do, you'd make a marvelous Top Gun movie. And I like your Star Trek work and Mission Impossible. My fail is the 60 minutes thing because it's so unnecessary and stupid.

1:04:10Kara Swisher:And I know reporters, I agree with you, can be like a little bit, you know, self-serious and, you know, pompous and something. In this case, they really are right. And it's not, they really are right. This is so dumb. And if they can't answer the question, why did you fire competent people? If you can't actually even answer it internally, there's something wrong with you and at the same time my one favorite phrase that i'm using a lot now and poor nick had when he was leaving with that fraught meeting with scott uh pelly um he was he said as he was leaving he sort of flounced out because he was getting fried by scott and scott is a tough guy um he said enjoy the bagels there some people from 60 minutes said they're going to I make secret T-shirts called Enjoy the Bagels!

1:04:56Kara Swisher:And I just enjoy that. But I don't enjoy any of the rest of it. I don't. I think it's sad. And it's unnecessary and stupid. So, anyway. I like it. Enjoy the bagels. There you go. Enjoy the bagels. So, look, my win is the death of higher education has been greatly exaggerated. Applications are up. But that's how my win. My win is our great public universities. One of the most underreported stories in America right now, I think, is that the market is finally disciplining higher education. And that is families are waking up and realizing that paying a half a million dollars for a bachelor's degree is a luxury good masquerading as an investment.

1:05:40And applications to our flagship public universities, which are a much better value, are exploding. The University of Texas at Austin received more than 90 ,000 applications, up 25 % year-on-year. Why applications at places like the University of Virginia, University of Michigan have surged record labels. My son's there.

1:05:59Kara Swisher:Alex is there. My alma mater, UCLA, gets 160 ,000 applications. They get the number of a small city. And why are they doing this? Because we're coming to an uncomfortable truth, and that is after your first job, You know, people care that you got into a good school, but they don't care if it's a good school or, quote-unquote, an elite school. They just want to know that you went to a good school. And they also care whether you can just do the work. They're also great schools. Let me just say, for Michigan, it's substantively less expensive than Louis School. UC San Diego. And NYU, I'm sorry to tell you, it's substantively.

1:06:33University of North Carolina. Yeah. I mean, these are outstanding schools. The guess what, folks? It wasn't cheap.

1:06:39Kara Swisher:Can we just point out? It wasn't cheap, but it was substantively less expensive. It was less expensive. I'm not saying it's a good value. I'm saying it's a much better value. It is. And the ROI gap that you're referring to is staggering. At many flagship state schools, an in-state student can graduate with tens or even hundreds of thousands less debt than access and access comparable employers, alumni networks, and graduate school opportunities. You know, the elite schools have spent 30 years turning themselves into luxury brands, and the public flagship, spent 30 years building capacity, research, and outcomes.

1:07:14Kara Swisher:Did you see what I sent you? The numbers for those elite schools have gone up like over 100 ,000 each for each year. It's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. Yeah. So look, the new American dream isn't getting into Harvard. It's getting rejected by Harvard and then going to Michigan or Texas, landing the same job and using the quarter of a million dollars you saved as a down payment on a house. And I should post higher ed all the time because I think me and my colleagues have been drunk on scarcity and reflect this dangerous trend towards rejectionism where we feel good when we turn away 90 % of our applicants, similar to a head of a homeless shelter writing that he or she turned away 9 and 10 people last night.

1:07:54We are public servants, not Hermes bags. But I do think our great public universities are doing their level best. You go to the University of Wisconsin at Madison and you see exactly what you should see. It's not the Ritz-Carlton Madison. The buildings are a little tired and haggard. And there's thousands of students floating in and out of their classes. And it's a bunch of middle class kids from Wisconsin and Minneapolis who are not freakishly fucking remarkable. Some of them were captain of the little class team. Most were not. Most are socially conscious. Most have not figured out a freshwater startup to bring potable water to Rwanda.

1:08:38They're just good kids looking for great futures. A lot of our public universities are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. And folks, when you hear someone saying, oh, our daughter, we're thinking that she doesn't need education because of AI or higher ed, that means she just got a 22 on the ACT. Higher ed has never been more important. Critical thinking, social responsibility, getting along with others, relationships, getting your heart broken, breaking other hearts. If you are one of the one third of American public that has access to higher education, trust me on this. It is a really solid plan B, especially if you can go to one of our great public universities who continue to follow their mission.

1:09:20Kara Swisher:Can I put in a little plug for public schools in general? My kids are both in public, my little kids. And I have to say, I feel so good about them. And they're great. And they're doing really well. I went to public school kindergarten through graduate school. And the generosity of California taxpayers and the vision of the Regency University of California are literally why I'm here with you now. and my total tuition, first off, acceptance rate at UCLA, 74%. It was one of the 26 % that didn't get in, but I reapplied and they let me in because they had that kind of capacity and bandwidth. My total tuition, five years undergrad, two years graduate school,$7 ,000.

1:09:59I showed up to UCLA with like a 1982 Volkswagen Rabbit and$300, and I got through all five years and all two years of graduate school with no money, with student jobs, and$15 ,000 total in debt.

1:10:16Kara Swisher:Amazing. Amazing. And now they want you to be Andy Rooney, which you're not going to do. There you go. Anyway, I really appreciate it. That's a great one, Scott. Is that your fail? That's your win. What's your fail? That's my win. Oh, thanks. My fail is Ferrari's electric car. Oh, yeah. This is a rare misstep from one of the world's great brands. I feel like Ferrari announcing an EV is like Maker's Mark, my favorite whiskey brand, announcing it's launching bottled water. It might make sense. It might even be profitable. But something important just died at the Ferrari factory. People are mad at that Ferrari.

1:10:52People are mad. Well, for God's sakes, nobody spends a half a million.

1:10:54Kara Swisher:It's Johnny Ive for people to not know, right? It's like techs ruin fucking something else. Nobody spends a half a million dollars on a Ferrari because it's efficient. They buy it because it makes irrational noises that trigger a primal, masculine, wonderful instinct in the male brain. The engine isn't a feature, it's the product. And luxury is about scarcity, emotion, and theater. And an electric Ferrari is becoming a very expensive appliance. Nobody puts a poster of an appliance on their bedroom wall. Nobody wants to give you a random oral sex because you have a hot appliance. Maybe a sub-zero, but only if you own the home around it.

1:11:30Anyways, don't know how I got here. The challenge is in engineering. Every confident automaker can build a fast EV. The challenge is replacing 80 years of Italian heritage built around noise, vibration, and mechanical drama with software. Them going electric is like -

1:11:51Kara Swisher:People say it looks like a Honda. Well, it's like Rolex launching a smartwatch. It might sell, but you've confused the source of your value proposition. This is one of the great brand mistakes of 2026. You're right. Even I looked at it and I was like, that's not a pretty car. and Ferrari would be pretty. Like, you know what I mean? It was like so simple. Yeah, I think it was a Johnny I've misstep in that regard. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

1:12:24Kara Swisher:Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, I did a show about sports, and in this case, the World Cup. This week on On with Kara Swisher, I'm talking about the World Cup, which kicks off later this week with the U.S. as one of the co-hosts. I talked to a panel of experts, including New York Times sports correspondent Tarek Panja. We talked about the crazy ticket prices and also the fears that ICE will ramp up enforcement, among other things. Let's listen. A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans, as we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world, all be in the United States, hoping to go to games.

1:12:56I remember last summer, the U.S. hosted the Club World Cup, and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team who are living in Boston. Now, they were going to go in convoy to watch the games last summer. And at the last minute, they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't want to be so visible driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match.

1:13:25Kara Swisher:It was really good. And guess who asked the question? Scott Galloway. They love your question. You'll like the answer, Scott. I appreciate it. Yeah, but you talking about sports is like Greta Thunberg reviewing steakhouses. I get it. I mean. It's a good, it's a good, you know, they, I let them talk. I just ask questions. I'm sorry. It's like a cat breaking down the Westminster dog show. It just, I try. It's like, it's like RFK talking about vaccines. It's literally, the world came off its axis. I try. I think I did a good job. I did. I can't do it again. I think it would be easier for a nun to review OnlyFans.

1:14:02I just.

1:14:05Kara Swisher:Anyway, you helped me a great deal and gave a good answer. I really appreciate it. You called me and you said, you have to do me a solid. And I thought it was going to be something big. And you're like, I'm interviewing the head of FIFA or someone. You have to ask a question. Yeah, reporters on the World Cup. I can do that easily. By the way, ticket prices, I'm obsessed with the World Cup. I went to Russia. I went to L.A. in 94. I went to Russia. I went to Qatar. I'm going to this one. Granted, it's the final, but Category 1 final seats, which are good seats. But to go to the final, the ticket price, the face value, is$38 ,000.

1:14:42Kara Swisher:I know, but then it's like$100 ,000. Go England. It's coming home, Cara. It's coming home. It's going to be Spain, they said. They say Spain is the one that's going to win. Spain's amazing. No, they said Spain's going to win. They said Spain. Yeah, the kid. They said Spain. All of them agreed Spain was going to win. Also France. I was like, okay. No, they said Spain. Anyway. Anyway, and I don't even know what that means. Oh, and I know there's some new player there, a young player. And this is the last thing for Messi and some other person. Who was the second person? Ronaldo. And also Harry Kane.

1:15:12Kara Swisher:This is their last show, right? Correct? Well, they said the last time, but it looks like, this does look like you have some. Changeover. Changeover. But you also have Mbappe. No, no, no, we're talking. The gentleman you referred to as Lamine Yamal, who was scoring goals at the age of 17. I took my son to a game, and I looked at him, and I felt bad. I'm like, in a disparaging way, and I'm like, that kid's younger than you. I'm like, you better get something going on. That kid's younger than you. That's enough sports talk. That's enough sports talk for Cara, okay? Oh, wait, I'm sorry. He joined FC Barcelona at 16.

1:15:52Kara Swisher:Okay, go find another friend for this. No, Cara doesn't care. The lesbian doesn't care. God. Okay, that's the show. He's literally the only unicorn to come out of Europe. Let me out of here. He is the European unicorn. His left foot. I don't know what you're saying. He's carrying a nation of 48 million people on his left foot. Oh, my God. You're not. You're literally. You keep talking. Okay. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Enjoy yourself this week, Scott. You have the SpaceX IPO and the World Cup. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman.

1:16:28Aaliyah Jackson engineered the episode. Thanks also to Dubroz, Miss Rivera, and Dan Chalon. The Shark Coroz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for a breakdown of all things tech and business.

1:16:51Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from CoreWeave. Everywhere you look, AI is expanding what we thought was possible. And at the center of it all is CoreWeave. Medical research and diagnosis, education, complex visual effects for movies, science and technology breakthroughs. CoreWeave powers AI pioneers around the world with purpose-built tech, building what's never been built before. CoreWeave is the essential cloud for AI. Ready for anything, ready for AI. To learn more about how CoreWeave powers the world's best AI, go to coreweave.com slash ready for anything.

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