Trump's Latest Indictment, Strike Update, and Co-Host Savannah Guthrie

23:05But I think it's just a super delicate balancing act. How much to let someone say what they have to say and trust that the listeners will see it for what it is. I mean, that's the other thing. If we just interrupted everything, then why even have them on? Right, right. That's true. But I think some people are more cynical. I think someone like Donald Trump really knows what he's doing. in terms of, he knows, he assumes our fairness and uses it as a weapon. This is on the long lines of social media misinformation, because I think that's what it is. This interview I had with defunct social media platform Parler's CEO, John Mates, in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, I taped it on January 6th.

23:47I had a motion happen when I was a mile from the Capitol. I don't think I had out of control emotion, but it was very upsetting to see what was going on in the Capitol. Let's listen to that. Are you actually neutral? Are you seeing right now as a right-wing publisher, all the people affiliated with you are more on the right? How do you change that? And tell me about the ownership structure. Well, today, everybody, a lot of people on the platform are on the right. And we have appealed to people on the right because they are, you know, primarily the victims of online censorship right now, the way I see it.

24:22You know, there's no actual evidence of that happening, just them saying it. There's also no actual evidence of it not happening either. Oh my God, come on. That's Loch Ness Monster talk. You can't say that, though. You can't say that. I would like to see evidence of it, just like I'd like to see more evidence of widespread election fraud, which of course you don't see in courts of courts have already said that too. Well, yeah. So, I mean, I don't want to get into the election thing, but, you know, let's put it this way. People feel that they are being censored online Again, feelings are not facts, but okay.

24:53All right. They're over there. They've moved over there. They're hurt by something that Twitter's done, although they certainly can't resist it on many levels. So I thought my feelings are not facts was fantastic, I have to say. I have to say that was my favorite part too. Yeah. I like it. And it's the right response. Is that too? I'm curious if you think that's too, I wouldn't see this on a network television thing, this kind of back and forth, or maybe you might. I would say the first part I wouldn't necessarily, but the second maybe, because he just asserted a fact. They are bullied online or they're censored online.

25:29You said that's not true. Where's the evidence of that? I think for us it'd be more, where's your evidence? As opposed to saying it's not true. Show me some facts. But I think you're saying feelings are not facts is the right response, especially since he's asserted it as a fact. And now he's changed it to, well, they feel that way. Well, that's fine. Right, right, right. Then you should have said that in the first place. Right, right. Absolutely. I feel it. But that's why I said feelings are not facts. He ended up getting fired after this interview. Oh, wow. Yeah, because of several things he said, including that he didn't feel responsible for inaccuracies on the platform at all or that things were wrong.

26:08And he kept and I kept saying, you know, you have people who will kick you off for this, you know, either Amazon or Apple and stuff like that. And he kept saying it like he felt no responsibility for for violence and he felt no response, which was interesting that he said it. I was sort of surprised. Well, there's a lot of candor there. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. People tend to do that with me. I don't know why. But he did actually fired in the wake of this. I don't think I caused it. I think he said it. Right. Right. So is there someone you wouldn't interview? Because I mean, I talked to, of all people, so opposite from you, Piers Morgan, and he said he wouldn't interview Marjorie Taylor Greene, for example.

26:46I don't know if I would either. Not because I don't like her, for one, and I'd be happy to say it, but also the persistent lies are almost impossible. It's an impossible interview, like that kind of thing. I know Leslie Stahl did, and she is a friend of mine, and, you know, she got some blowback for that interview. How do you, do you think about that at all? All the time. I mean, the list of people I don't want to interview is long. Yeah. I'm not naming names, but I do think about it. And I also just, you know, I think about it also in terms of our show, what's good for our show, what are our viewers interested in, you know, and then also whether it's valuable, whether it's worth it.

27:28But, you know, sometimes every once in a while you have these like cultural stories that are kind of really controversial. And it's like, do we need to be in that game? I don't know. Sometimes I, you know, we have been. And yeah. And sometimes I do interviews that I wish I didn't have to do. Honestly, I wish I didn't have to, but I know it's my job. So what am I going to do? Sit around and cry? They write me a paycheck. I cash it every two weeks. Like, this is my job. Right. But would you say absolutely not to someone if you can? I would. And I do feel in this moment, I feel supported by my bosses and I think they listen to me.

28:06Because I wouldn't say no for a stupid reason. If I said no, there would be a rationale behind it. Because I understand that I'm an employee and I understand what my job is. So if there was something that I just didn't feel I could do morally or journalistically, I wouldn't do it. It's not worth it. I had that situation and I'm blanking on who it was, but it was a right wing figure at our code conference. They had just done something virulently anti-gay. And I just I said to Walt Mossberg, who is my partner, we were supposed to do it together. I said, I cannot sit on the stage without lunging across and slapping.

28:41Give him a slap. You know what I mean? I wasn't going to. But that's the right call, because in that case, you're also you're saying I can't be objective. Well, then that's right. That's exactly the moment you step aside. Although sometimes, even if you're not object, I see that's the interesting thing is I show my opinions a little more, right? And I think sometimes when they're like, when they, you know, it was sort of the famous fucks, fair and balanced. I don't know if there's so such thing. There's no such thing. I don't think they are. But that I don't think lists, I think one of the things they sort of appreciate is they know exactly where I'm coming from.

29:15Yeah, for sure. And I don't hide it. And I think sometimes when journalists are like, I'm completely objected. I'm like, you're not. And not just politically, but where you came from, where you were born, everything else. Yeah, I mean, it's aspirational. That's the thing. Of course, you know, it's aspirational. But I cling to that aspiration. I can't say, and I'm sure, and that's the other thing. We all have so many detractors that depending on who's listening, they could probably come up and marshal all kinds of evidence where they think I'm biased this way or that way. I just have to carry on.

29:49And I'm not a perfect person. And like I said, I'm definitely interested in fair criticism. Yeah. Have you ever had a moment where you're like, I just can't do this and then burst out? I don't think I've ever seen you do that. I think you're quite controlled in the interviews, which is what I like, actually. I try, you know, I really do try to be professional. I mean, I'm inside. If you had a soundtrack to my internal dialogue, you would just like you'd run screaming. I'm the opposite of you, Cara. You know what I love about you? You're like, that was great. I loved that interview. I crushed that.

30:22That is the, you and I were talking about our graduation speeches. You're like, oh yeah, the kids were loving it. We could not be more opposite. I mean, I sometimes cry of my stress before an interview. Oh, my internal dialogue is a terrifying place. They should make a horror movie out of it. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, God. But when push comes to shove, it's time to sit down and get down to business. And that's the job. Yeah. Yeah. My friends joke about it. They're always like, Kara's always like, oh, that's really great. Someone asked me, oh, how'd that go? I'm like, it's fantastic. They're like, do you ever not say it's fantastic?

30:58I said, when it's not fantastic, but it's so often fantastic. I don't know what to say. That's what I love. I mean, I don't know if it's offensive to say this. I would just say, you're like, you have some, that's a, it's like a, it's a good, you're like men. Yeah, I am. I am like men. That is true. You know, it's like men. like, they're always like, damn, I'm so good. Yeah, I know. And then women are like, why are we like this? You know? It's true. It's true. So I would, I'm going to get my inner care. Unless you live in Barbie land and then you're really good. Like them all clapping for each other.

31:26Oh, I loved it. I know. I know. The high Barbie. All right. You're not afraid to interrupt either. I did interrupt that interview and I thought it was appropriate, but you're not afraid to interrupt. Let's play this clip of you and Kamala Harris, Vice President Kamala Harris, in an interview you landed after her first year in office and one month before the Ukraine invasion. Let's go into that. I am often in the Situation Room with the leaders of our military and our intelligence community and, of course, the president of the United States. And on the subject of Ukraine, I will tell you that the president has been very clear, and we as the United States are very clear.

31:58If Putin takes aggressive action, we are prepared to levy serious and severe costs, period. And I will tell you that part of the posture that we have taken is grounded in the respect and the value we place in sovereignty and territorial integrity. And in particular in this case, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. Of course. And I'm so sorry to interrupt, but it is less than clear because 30 minutes after the news conference, the White House press secretary had to actually clarify the president's remarks. Savannah, I'm being clear with you right now. Yes. Okay. And so if you're interested, I'll continue to be clear.

32:41Oh, wow. Testy, testy. Oh, it got worse then after that. Yeah, it did. I remember. I was fascinated by it. Talk about what happened there. And she was trying to do cleanup, right? And of course, she also said, I'm in the room. I'm very important. I know of what I speak. I think that was that whole windup that she was doing there, which I would have probably in that moment said, I know you're important. Got it. Let's go right to the question. She probably thought you were trying to do a gotcha with Biden, right? Now you've had to clean up for Biden. What went through your head during that? I mean, honestly, I thought she'd get right to the cleanup because, you know, she's coming in the day after.

33:18It was a big deal. I mean, and later in the interview, I mean, it really gets into it. And I say, you know, I'm sorry. Let's be clear because right now there's 100 ,000 Russian troops amassed at the border and people are hanging on your every word. So we have to be clear. you know I thought she would just right away say I said did he is what he just said a green light to just take a tiny nibble like don't go a big of a but a tiny nibble because that's what it sounds like I thought she'd say of course not and then we'd be off to the races this whole wind up I mean I let it go that's one of those things where it speaks for itself right yeah Yeah, true.

33:59So I let it go. But then when the answer, then I was waiting for the actual answer to the question. When the answer wasn't clear, it said aggressive action. Well, that's, I mean, that was the issue. Well, what counts as aggressive action? Right, right. You know, what's aggressive enough for us to respond? So that's where it got. I have to tell you, again, I don't enjoy these moments of confrontation. This is not pleasant for me. I don't like it. I don't like how it makes me feel. I don't like what people, especially partisans, say about me afterwards, although I try not to look at it. But sometimes it has to be done.

34:35I mean, that was a very, again, that's where it's like, that's a fight worth having. Is it okay if he does a little something over in Crimea or over in the Donbass, but a full scale of Kiev is not okay? That's what the issue was. And that's what we were grappling with. Right, is be clear. And she was doing cleanup, so it was probably irritating for her to, you know, I mean, they had to send her out. Yeah, correct. But if you're going to clean up, like, to me, I'm like, I mean, it's not me. These are hard jobs. But I'm like, sweep it up and move on. Yeah, exactly. I've been like, of course not.

35:04Next. Yes. Yeah. And so when she said when you were waiting for that moment, because I could hear you waiting while she was doing her wind up, which it was long, that wind up was long. She's a lawyer. She likes to be a lawyer. She's very, I've been in that situation with Vice President Harris. She has a lot to say. But when she said if Putin takes aggressive action, we're prepared to levy serious and severe cost, period, which is unspecific and specific at the same time. Right. Which I was probably poll tested, et cetera, what exactly she was going to say to you. The problem with that response in that moment was what is the definition of aggressive?

35:39That was the very issue we're grappling with. Biden says it depends on what it is. And then she says if it's aggressive action. So I'm saying, well, what counts as aggressive? Is any incursion aggressive? That's what the whole debate was about. So yeah, that's happened. So do you feel that was a successful interview? I think it does. Well, I think she's in a bad situation herself. Like she's been put in a bad situation. And at the same time, she can't go out on any limb either and be more specific. Well, I don't know. Maybe she could have said that he can't set one foot. He can't put one toenail into Ukraine.

36:17That's what I thought they'd say. Right, right. And did you expect that or not? I didn't know what their position was going to be. But if you're coming on and you know that there's been a controversy, the president made this statement. The White House had to clarify it 30 minutes later. And the next day, the vice president's doing the rile and robin on all of the networks. You know he's going to be asked. To me, I would have thought they're here to dispatch this one once and for all. Of course not. Y 'all are reading into this too much. Putin can't set one tiny fingernail into Ukraine without getting the full-throated response of the U.S.

36:50That isn't what we got. So do I consider it a successful interview? I don't know. I mean, the issues were litigated. You know, she got to say her piece. I don't like that it, you know, I never like, I mean, I don't like the confrontation. I mean, I don't want to do boring interviews, but I'm not trying to entertain. I'm trying to get the info. Right, right. That's true. That's in that case. What was the fallout from that? I don't know that there was any. I mean, I don't think there was any from the White House. I mean, people talk about those interviews. I have learned, finally, I don't have a thick skin at all, as we've discussed, but I'm not reading the comments.

37:25You know, I'm not, there's people that'll say, oh, great. And people will say, you're the worst. And the people who like the Trump interview would have hated that Kamala and vice versa. And, you know, people are, there's a lot these days now where people say, oh, you're so biased. And what I find is often it's, they're not from the Pew Institute looking for some bastion of neutrality. They want your bias to match their bias. Yeah, that's true. A hundred percent. I refuse to talk to anyone who doesn't listen. Like I won't, you know, without listening. And a lot of people do that now. That's what I love about you.

38:01And next time somebody's, you know, mean to me or gets, no, I'm going to say call Kara. Yeah. Kara Spisher is my representative in this matter. All right. We go on a quick break. We'll be right back with a whole bunch of stuff around tech because Savannah's done a lot of tech interviews.

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40:39Savannah, we're back. Let's talk about Facebook and Meta, whatever they want to call themselves. Both opportunities to sit down with the top brass there. Let's start with your interview with Sheryl Sandberg, someone I know very well and someone I've interviewed many times, too, setting the scene. It's 2018. You're asking about Cambridge Analytica and the day the company gathered from Facebook. Very controversial. People feel that it was overblown. At the same time, it was indicative of the problems we had with Facebook. Let's listen. This first came to Facebook's attention in December 2015. That's two and a half years ago.

41:11And only now is Facebook taking these serious steps that you've announced this week. What is the reason it took so long? You could have done all of this two and a half years ago. You are right that we could have done this two and a half years ago. So why didn't you? Because we thought that the data had been deleted and we should have checked. You are right about that. What we're doing now, we thought it had been deleted because they gave us assurances. And it wasn't until other people told us it wasn't true. But why go on Facebook as someone who's already violated, in spirit, if not in the letter, Facebook's principles?

41:44We had legal assurances from them that they deleted. What we didn't do was the next step of an audit, and we're trying to do that now. We thought the data had been deleted. That's why. But that doesn't mean you don't tell the users, hey, this was stolen from you. Yes, you're right, and we should have done that. We should have done that as well. Because it feels like Facebook was trying to get away with it. I don't think that's true, but of course you're right. Well, that's a Cheryl special. That's a Cheryl special. You're right. You know what? I agree with you. Like it was, that was classic. I think you did a great job there.

42:17I remember paying attention to this. I thought it was one of the much better interviews with these people. Talk about this. What's the trick here to get her off? She's obviously talking points. She's like the Olympic talking points person in Silicon Valley. You know, I was, I haven't thought about that in a long time, but, you know, I was thinking about it as we were getting ready for this today. I, I, what's interesting is, you know, she was there to fall on the sword. Clearly she was there to say, you're right. We did it wrong. And so I think, you know, and that's fine because that was the, that's what, what her purpose was.

42:48But I think my approach was, well, you can't just say, I'm sorry. And it's over. Oh, that's a Facebook special. That's another, I'm sorry. So I think that's what that exchange is really about. Well, she said, we should have, well, why didn't you, you know and then I think it goes back to the common sense thing where at the very end I'm saying you it almost looks like you were hoping you could get away with it you know and I think sometimes it's I like that I like I love how you I think this is very Kara um it's just call it what it is sometimes there's like too much politeness or illusion to and I think it's more effective and an opportunity for the person being interviewed if you just flat out say, this is what people think.

43:36They think you did it on purpose and you didn't do anything till now because you were kind of hoping no one would ever find out. Is that true? And then it gives them a chance to answer that criticism. Yeah. And then she goes, let's move fast forward to now. She wanted to get you off of it. Pivot. Pivot. Let's pivot on this. When she is doing this, I'm curious what went through your head when you're right about that. I've had her do that to me. And one of the things I do just to get her to stop is I'm like, stop saying I'm right. I know what you're doing here. It's super manipulative. So stop doing it.

44:06And so I often call out and some things I do with, and Silicon Valley people are very talking points. And you've interviewed lots of business leaders too, very talking points. I actually point out the talking point, right? Before they can do it. In the case of today with Chris Christie, I said, you have four answers to this question. you have three answers. So I put him on notice that I've listened to everything he said. And then secondly is, I'm not interested in your talking points because that's the way you answered every time. I would like a different answer or a different word. That's my favorite, Kara.

44:38But when she was doing this, I want to know what you were thinking when she was saying you're right about that. What was going through your head? Do you remember? I must not have been surprised, but I think what my goal was to not drop it. Like apology is the beginning of the interview, not the end. Right. Very good point. That's what I, I think that's what I was thinking. So it's, you still have something to answer for. Thank you for the sorry. But we still, it's like if you were in a relationship and you got in a fight and the person said, you know, I was wrong for doing X. You'd say, thank you for saying that.

45:09I feel like we still need to address how it is we got here. Well, people often use the sorry as an excuse, right? I know. Well, there's no worse than, I'm sorry that you feel that way. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's not an apology. That is not an apology, but that's on your relationship podcast. Yeah. I could feel your annoyance when I was watching this. Oh, really? Yeah, I could. I could tell that you're like, oh, come on. You could see it. That's physically, yeah. I don't feel that way, but maybe I was. Yeah, I was watching because I was watching all these interviews because I was going to do some of my own.

45:40They're, of course, not talking to me anymore. That's their new policy, is that. I guess that's a compliment to you. No, I've actually tried to get Cheryl for a new interview. And I talked to her PR person, and someone I've known for years and I really like. And I ran into him at the dry cleaner in the Castro. And I said, all roads lead through Kara Swisher for Sheryl Sandberg's redemption. And he's like, she's not going to do it. And I said, all roads. I said, she wants to come back, has to go the highway through Kara Town. Well, I love it. And I, you know, but as I told you, like one of the first times we texted, I said, I will never do an interview with you.

46:14Yeah, okay, here you are. And here you are. I know, but we're not really interviewing you. Yes, that's true, that's true, fair. Or chatting as colleagues. Yes, that's true. That's true. That's true. In this case, it's really interesting is when you do that. But I do think, I'll tell you one very quick story. And the similar thing is Barack Obama when I interviewed him. And he's super smooth, obviously, and very talking points. And one of the things that happened is they cut my time. And you know that when they cut your time. Doesn't that suck? Big deal. Yes. Time is the hardest part of those interviews.

46:42Exactly. If you had forever, you could do it. Yes, exactly. Which is why I make these interviews long. And so he, they cut my time and they gave it to like a YouTube star, which made me even more furious, right? Because I was talking about very serious issues. Apple had just had this issue around the phone that they were trying to decrypt and everything else. And so it was an important time and I was doing an actual serious interview. And they, at the beginning of the interview, what I did is I leaned into him and I said, listen, they cut 10 minutes from my interview. And you tend to talk a lot.

47:11And you talk in paragraphs. And I get it because you're president and everybody listens to you and nobody pushes back. But I'm going to interrupt you. And you're not used to it. I know you are. You're on your sixth year and you don't get interrupted. I'm going to interrupt you quite a bit if you keep yammering on. And he goes, and he goes, I know. And he goes, this is before it started. And we're very close to each other because we're in these chairs. And he goes, I heard you were obnoxious. I go, yes, I am. And then we went and then it started. And it was really interesting. but he was much more pithy.

47:42Like I put him on notice that I didn't want, it was really interesting because - I think that's amazing. Yeah, it was an interesting thing. But speaking of which, here's somewhere I didn't talk a lot. We're going to play an interview I did with Mark Zuckerberg. I've done many, not the sweating one, which was where he sweat too much. But when we famously talked about content moderation, here's the clip. Right, so I'm Jewish. And there's a set of people who deny that the Holocaust happened, right? I find that deeply offensive. But at the end of the day, I don't believe that our platform should take that down because I think that there are things that different people get wrong.

48:21Either, I don't think that they're intentionally getting it wrong, but I think that they... In the case of a Holocaust denier, they might be, but go ahead. It's hard to impugn intent and to understand the intent. But I just think for as abhorrent as some of those examples are, I think the reality is also that I get things wrong when I speak publicly. I'm sure you do. I'm sure a lot of leaders and public figures we respect do too. And I just don't think that it is the right thing to say we are going to take someone off the platform if they get things wrong even multiple times. So what we will do is we'll say, okay, you have your page.

49:01And if you're not trying to organize harm against someone or attacking someone, then you can put up that content on your page, even if people might disagree with it or find it offensive. But that doesn't mean that we have a responsibility to make it widely distributed in newsfeed. Oh, that was quite a moment. And here's why. It really was. Here's why. This is what I did. When he said, I don't think they're intentionally getting it wrong. First of all, we were talking about Alex Jones, and he moved into Holocaust deniers. And I kept, internally, I was like, oh no, sir, don't do that, dude. And he was using it because I'm Jewish.

49:34And there's, you know, he was trying to say, even I as a Jewish person can talk about Holocaust deniers and let them say what they want to say. And when he said, I don't think they're intentionally getting it wrong, right then in my head, I was like, you fucking idiot. That's what I thought at the time. Like how, what, what? Like, and I didn't, and I normally, I would have said, are you kidding me? You cannot be saying this. Of course, they're intentionally getting it wrong. They're malevolent players. There's a difference between someone who gets it wrong and someone who's a malevolent. I could have gone on there.

50:05I didn't. I remember saying, control yourself, Kara. Let him talk because let's hear what he has to say so everyone understands how incredibly nonsensical his argument is. Let him lay it out in all its terribleness. And so I said, I did put in, in the case of Holocaust deniers, they might be because I wanted to put a pin right there, you know, that they're malevolent. And then I later went back and said that. And so he later had to clarify his remarks because I knew that it would blow up like a Roman candle. I left that interview as fast as I could, and we got up as fast as we could before they realized what had happened, you know, with it.

50:41He clarified his remarks later saying, I personally find Holocaust denial deeply offensive. I absolutely didn't intend to defend the intent of people who deny that. I remember thinking that was one of my best injuries because I didn't say something. I know. And it's true. And you said enough in that moment. So no one could say, oh, Kara, you just let this nonsense go unchallenged. No one could say that. But it is true. I mean, you allowed him to complete his thought. And again, I always think this is a good Latin phrase from law school, resipso loquitur. It speaks for itself. Resipso. It's like, Like let it, this will speak for itself.

51:23And sometimes the best thing to do is get out of the way. Get out of the way. It's interesting. Do you find yourself when you're in interviews like that? Because I always interject. I'm a very interjected person. But in this case, I thought, you must understand that this person running this company doesn't know what they're talking about. Like that this is the person making the decisions. Two years later, he took Holocaust deniers off the platform. Two years of damage, right? I was, he kept saying I was wrong. And of course I was right. And he did it later. And so I think I wrote a column later called The Expensive Education of Mark Zuckerberg, which was expensive for us, not for him, which was interesting.

51:59Do you ever find yourself wanting to jump in and then not doing it? You're very controlled in interviews, which I do like. I do watch you because of that. I don't have a particular occasion that comes to mind like that where I'm thinking, oh, just let's let this go. but I'm always very mindful of being fair enough to let the person say what they want to say. You know, they did not sign up for a debate. They signed up for an interview when they came on our air. And so even though sometimes it does feel like I'm debating when you start having to go back on facts, it's really, it's, it's always that balancing act and it's really delicate.

52:37And sometimes I'll listen back to some of these clips and think, I really let that go on for a long time. That was maybe too generous. And then sometimes I think, God, I was a little hot-headed and over-torqued. I could have, you know, it's a little too much. You know, I don't, I'm critical of my technique, but I know what I'm thinking in the moment. And sometimes, you know, I'm trying to give them a chance to say what they have to say. 100%. That's what I say. You'll be able to say what you think. It just doesn't mean it's going to come off well. And I do think one of good things about what I do like about your interviews is they're longer and they're more substantive.

53:13A lot of stuff on TV today is so short and reductive. It's interesting, but I do think these more longer interviews, I do trust the listener to know these things, right? We tend to dumb down our, think our listeners are stupider than they are and they're not at all. All right, Savannah, one more quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about some of the more emotional interviews we've done. Cara can be emotional.

53:40Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

54:08No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

55:02you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business.

55:34Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

55:50Savannah, we're back. We've talked a lot about getting people to reveal information and advance the story and sometimes about getting them to reveal and process emotions. I want to talk about, I don't want to say regular people because we're all regular people, but the people we often interview are pros, just like we are, right? And say they know the game and everything else. Your interview with the parents of a Louisville bank shooter, which I thought was really, I love this interview. I hate to say I loved it, but I did. It was very moving earlier this year. Let's play it and then let's talk about it.

56:19There's no comprehension of him doing an act like this to others. So our issues are around the minutia of little things like, man, we didn't see that. If, you know, even little things like as men, we don't always verbalize things to each other, but

56:48I think I'm going to pull the parachute out of that answer and walk away from it. I do want to say, though, I had no idea. And even when he was telling me that he was sort of in a crisis, we thought we had it handled. We thought it was being managed. He does not fit the profile. He wasn't a loner. He had a job. He had a girlfriend. He was successful. And he only had anxiety. He only had maybe panic attacks. That's it. And what happened to you is unthinkable, but you also did lose a son. And your son also did a terrible thing. And I just wonder what, how you deal with that. It would have been bad enough if we had just lost our son.

57:35But for him to take others with him, it's just, it's beyond what we've taught him, the way we live. We're always saying, do no harm. He didn't do that. Well, this was a gut punch, Savannah. And especially that question where you are clearly yourself emotional, which was appropriate. When you said you lost a son, but he also did a terrible thing, I wonder how you deal with that. I thought that was one of the most perfect ways to ask that question. Talk a little bit about how you got this interview and how you approached it, how you approached it. Well, first of all, I have to say that the Sturgeons are incredible people and incredibly courageous to sit for an interview like that.

58:22And, you know, unfortunately, we cover a lot of school shootings. I've been to too many to count. And, you know, it's just common practice that after these shootings, you know, our bookers, producers, for all the networks, for all the newspaper, everyone, they'll always put in a request to speak to the family of the shooter. It is almost never even answered. In this case, after a few days, they responded and we spoke a few times before. You and that. Yes, yes. I talked to them about what it would be like, what they were hoping to accomplish. I always tell, I mean, if I have a conversation before doing an interview, I'm very upfront about this will not be easy.

59:12There will be hard questions. You just have to know that. I never want someone to feel like, oh, she led me down the primrose path. I thought this was going to be a cakewalk. I mean, I'm like, this is your, there's the things that are hard. We're going to talk about, but I promise you it'll be fair. I promise you you'll get an honest conversation. And so we had those kinds of discussions. And honestly, I was kind of afraid myself to even do it because I felt like, gosh, I just kept thinking about the victims, you know, and they did too. The surgeons were like, we don't want to do anything that will hurt them and make it worse.

59:53At the same time, something's got to change. This can't just keep happening. And if we can add our voice and explain what happened to us so that people understand this is how it happens. It can happen to anyone. If it could happen to us, it could. I mean, they really were. They were better parents than most of the parents I know in terms of being on it and paying attention. So, you know, I was really nervous about doing it. I mean, one of the things, one of my, my approach was one of the, I think the first question I asked them when I sat down is, what makes you nervous about doing an interview like this?

1:00:29And it gave them the opportunity to say, we're so afraid of hurting the victims. That's our biggest fear. and then you know the moment you just mentioned and there was another I felt like I have to ask you know what they did ask about Connor you don't want talk about platforming you don't want to raise the profile of someone who did such a horrible thing so I felt like it was important to just state the fact you lost a son and your son did something horrific and these two things can coexist? And how do you hold those two things in your hands at the same time? Right. I thought this was, it was not, it was gripping and also terrible.

1:01:12It was a terrible thing to listen to. One of the things that I think is difficult, and I don't know if I could do an interview like this, it was because I would think of the victims almost the entire time. And at the same time, as a parent, you brought that here, I think, whether you realize it or not, right? Like, can you imagine if putting yourself in that situation? It's hard to have empathy for them. And you did. You managed to do that, which I think is difficult, I would say. I think as a parent, I mean, you're a parent too. That's just so part of the fabric of who we are. And I think about myself as a parent of a child who was shot.

1:01:50And I think of myself as a parent of a child who did something horrible. I could see the pain and torment of being in both of those. positions. And so, yeah, I mean, you can't help but bring that. And, you know, they also were particularly, you know, there are different scenarios and different situations where it's harder to have as much empathy. These were parents who, by all accounts, really did the best they could. The minute that he even expressed feelings of having a panic attack, he stayed home from work. She got him a therapist appointment. They joined the therapist appointment. They spent the whole weekend with him.

1:02:35He had a roommate. He had a girlfriend. They never thought he had guns. So it was, I think, a valuable perspective that they brought. And I think they were, I don't know, I don't think she ever, sometimes I still will keep in touch with people I've interviewed just to check on them, see how they're doing. I don't think she ever watched. She couldn't bear to watch, but I think she felt like something's got to change. And if it means I have to be courageous, then I guess that's where I'm at now. And then the last question on this is, so many of these interviews, they sound the same, right? They ultimately, and you get people used to them.

1:03:14Is that ever a worry of yours? Well, I mean, I think in the case of the sturgeon, this was a very rare perspective to have. But in the case of, for example, parents, heartbreaking parents who are in grief because their children have been the victims of school shooting. I mean, I hope we never get numb to it. I, you know, I think it wouldn't be right though. If somebody wants to tell their story, I don't think it would be right to not let them share their grief, let the world see what they lost in particular. It's unfortunate that people shrug it off or say, oh, I can't watch that. It's too much for me.

1:03:51It's too sad. I mean, my view is if that person in their grief has the courage to tell the story, then we better have the courage to listen. And I don't know if it makes a difference. Everyone's different. That's the thing you hear a lot in our business. You're like, oh, it's awful that you talk to those parents. It's so exploitative, you know, blah, blah, blah. I mean, some people say no way. And some people say yes. Some people want to speak. I don't know. I think I'd be the kind of person if something like that happened to me. I think I'd shut that door tight and say, go away. But other people want to speak and they have their reasons.

1:04:29And that's not, our job is to ask them if they want that opportunity. And I don't judge whether it's right or wrong that they do it. I think it's mostly people chasing people. That is not okay. I mean, we don't do, I mean, you know, So generally, as far as I know, we don't, we really, we're not here to further traumatize people who are in the midst of incredible trauma. Absolutely. I did an interview with one of the Sandy Hook parents and I decided to take a different, rather than talk about the tragedy was many years on, was to talk about the focus on social media because this kid's picture was all over the place.

1:05:06He couldn't get the social media people to take it down until he sued them for copyright. And I wanted him to talk about that because I was like, let me just show you a tactic. this guy is using. And in showing that is that this is what he had to do to get people to take down horrific pictures. And I decided to go in a different direction. I thought that was successful. Well, it is. And it's also, I mean, it's a different facet of his grief. And it's valuable to people. I don't think most good-hearted people have any idea what some of these, especially in the Sandy case, what some of those families have had to contend with.

1:05:40Which I thought was, I thought it was, people were like, I never heard about that. I was like, That's what I was going for. Like you've heard the tragedy now here, actually what it's like on a day-to-day basis. All right, last one we're going to play is one of, I can have feelings, Savannah, I can. One of the more poignant interviews I've done with Monica Lewinsky, which I think this is my favorite interview, largely because I wanted people to reevaluate her. I think she's had a lot of grace and I know she made a mistake when she was 20, but she was 20. Who didn't. Who didn't, right? And she made it on a big scale, but that of all the people involved in this, She's the only one who hasn't dropped a dime.

1:06:14She hasn't taken advantage of it yet. And I've gotten to know her and I like her. I now consider her a friend after this interview where we talked about alternate endings. Let's listen. The name of your production company is Alt Ending. What would your alt ending be if you had to rewrite it? Oh, gosh. Again, back to maybe the boring or the banal, my alt ending would have been I left my internship. I went to graduate school, got a PhD. in forensic psychology, got married, had kids.

1:06:51Yeah, so. You can still have all the endings, you know? Yes, I can. And I, you know what? This one's a good one. I have had, the last seven years for me have been nothing short of a fucking miracle. And so I feel like, all right, well, if I've had one miracle, I could have another. So, and I have, as Pollyanna as my mom can be at times, I think she prefers sanguine, but she's always saying, you never know what or who is around the corner. You don't, oh my God. You don't? I know. Well, you can look out for my next boyfriend. All right. I know some people, but they're not going to be assholes. You're not going to have a bad boyfriend.

1:07:39First, my therapist says, we just need to find you a kind narcissist who's a little less broken than some of the others. There'll be no bad boyfriends for Monica Lewinsky. I thought this was really great. When she said, you know, except for my Brenda Vaccaro voice, I was sick. And I thought being accessible to her was really important. And I was surprised when she started to say that. It really affected me emotionally. Like when she said, I could have had kids. I would have had a career. And none of this was available. to her because of what happened. Again, she took responsibility for her part, but for the most part, she was taken advantage of by everybody, not just Bill Clinton, but the whole, the media, everyone who had every side of it.

1:08:21And I just felt like it was okay to be a little emotional in this one. Well, first of all, I teared up listening to it. And I know Monica a little bit too, and I find her to be extraordinary the way that with her intelligence, but also her wisdom and grace and never shirking her responsibility and her role, never playing the victim, you know, but just marching forward, I think, valiantly. And, you know, I think that it depends, you know, in a news interview, you know, that distance and objectivity is obviously required. Sometimes I feel this way about, for lack of a better word, like a celebrity interview or something that's a little softer.

1:09:03For me, the goal is connection. And that's what you accomplished there. You connected. And in connecting, it was revelatory. And therefore, that's the mission of the goal. I mean, that's the mission of the interview. That's how I feel sometimes about these celebrity interviews. It's less about like, and what's your next project or this or that. Sometimes it's just about connecting because you can see something in the way that if you click with the person or you share a joke or a laugh or whatever it is, it's revelatory. You learn something and that's for the viewer. I mean, that's, again, goes back to the, it's always about, you know, we're doing this for someone else.

1:09:41We're not doing it for ourselves. We're doing it because someone's listening or watching and they want to learn something and come away with something. There's got to be some value added. And so for me, I, I like that, that approach with Monica. It's, it's appropriate to the interview. And it was revealing. Yeah. I sometimes fear wanting to like someone, you know what I mean? And now I've sort of shifted after that, I shifted. It's like, if I like them, I'll say I like them like, and I don't care. Or if I don't like someone. It's okay to like people. I know, I know it is. I know, but I also don't like people.

1:10:12And I think it's okay to say, I don't like you, you know what I mean? But even before an interview, or change my mind, because I think you're a jerk, that kind of thing. And so it's, you know, it's an interesting approach. And I really thought this was an important one. Okay, my last question, then I'll let you go, because I know that you've been working very hard all day. So this is a long day, right for you, right? Last question. Any absolute favorite interview? I mean, I have one, but it's so weird. Go ahead. I want it. You're going to cut this out. And that's fine. A long time ago, there was a man on trial for in the death of Michael Jackson, Dr.

1:10:46Conrad Murray, and I was got an interview with him. And for some reason, he agreed to an interview while he was still on trial. And he was going to the only it was the jury was about to go out. So it was just after the jury comes back, then you can air it. So maybe it was a day or two before the verdict. And, you know, I do have this legal background. But as I confess to you, I'm not a real lawyer. I'm a totally fake lawyer. But I learned that case backwards and forwards. And he never took the stand. And so I got to do we did a three part interview. And I mean, we went through every fact. And it's the closest, I guess, I'll ever come to doing a cross-examination.

1:11:23And I kind of enjoyed it. So it was sort of the moment I was the lawyer that I never got to be. Alternate ending, Savannah. Alternating. I love that. We're leaving that in. My favorite of these were Steve Jobs, always, because he always gave as good as he got. And I always, he was an adult. And he never, even after I gave him a hard time, he was just great. He was like, okay, that was good. And a lot of these people that feel upset, I'm like, oh, come on, you big baby. Well, you know what? I think it makes them look good when they're fearless. Right. You know? Well, he answered the questions is what I, and when he lied, he said he lied.

1:12:00Like when I asked him questions a year later, I'm like, that was a lie. He's like, yeah, I lied to you. You know, I kind of was like, okay, okay, we know where we are. Anyway, Savannah, I have so much regard for you. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot and guest host, Teddy Schliefer. We've got a lot of people coming on. so it should be a really great Scott Free August but you've started it off perfectly and I really appreciate it and I will read us out. Thank you, Savannah. I'm honored. Thank you. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode.

1:12:30Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business in this Scott Free month of August.

1:12:50Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:13:19No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:14:13financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40 % your first year. Visit lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.