Trump’s Press Crackdown, Paramount Settles, and Anthropic’s $2 Trillion IPO

20:51Kara Swisher:Anyway, it is interesting what's going to happen to this class of cowards. I don't know how you look at it. I mean, I get going along with a president, but at some point, not to defend the First Amendment, and which was all over, whether it was Mike Waltz, that guy, or any of these Congress people, it's really, that's what worries me, Scott. That's what really gets me. Is there like, huh, good point. They're really mean to you. It's, I've been thinking about this a lot. And that is, I think you and I, I've always thought, you want just the right amount of money. I have some friends who I would argue have exactly the wrong amount of money.

21:28And that is they've made enough money. So they feel no impetus to take a job and no job meets the bar they have for what they should do. And they wake up two, three, five years later, and they've done fuck all. but they don't have enough money to retire or live the life they want to lead for the rest of their lives. They have exactly the wrong amount of money. So they end up turning down opportunities because they have the wrong amount of money. There's something to having a right amount of money where you don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You just get on starting, like making your career and making progress.

22:00It's great to not have economic anxiety. We have the right amount of money in the sense I was thinking about that. And that is we have enough economic security, and this is a wonderful thing, where we have independence. And what it appears is that when you have billions, it creates interdependence. You start becoming dependent upon the government for contracts. And that is, fuck you, money turns into wealth that gives you more to protect. And we were told billionaires would be value-add because they'd be uniquely independent and no one could buy them. And it turns out the opposite may be true, that they may have more soft tissue.

22:41Rockets need government contracts. Banks need regulators. Media company mergers need approvals. So kind of the bigger the empire, the more windows somebody can throw a brick through. And I used to always get angry at these guys and say, what's the point of having all this money? But what I'm more empathetic to is that they build huge companies with a lot of people, depending on their shareholder value. They become obsessed with the success of these companies. They don't want to be the guy that like Amazon or Blue Origin or whatever it is. And as a result, they go from being true ballers to true bitches.

23:22So they be - Ballers to bitches. Ballers to bitches. So there's, anyways, I came up with this insight last night under the influence of edibles, there's a curve of the right amount of money.

23:35Kara Swisher:No, a curve. What is that number? Do you have a number? Depends on who you are. I think about this way too much. Because you need a lot of more edibles than I do, for example. But I think that the right amount of money, I have an equation for this and I wrote a book about it, times your annual burn, including how much money you'd like to give away. Take that number times about 25. And once you have that number, realize that money is ink in your pen and it can write news stories, but it's no longer your story. And you should be totally focused on relationships and enjoying your life. And beyond that, money becomes another thing you need to manage.

24:14And also there becomes a fear of losing it.

24:18Kara Swisher:Right. That is exactly right. That's exactly right, Scott. I think you're right. That's what I was thinking after I heard this. I was like, oh my God, no, I just don't want to even figure it out. I just want to walk away and make something is that's mine. That's all I felt like. You know what I mean? Like that I own, that I control. You're a lot easier to manage than all these people. And totally enjoyable, let me say. Thank you for saying that. That may be the nicest thing you've ever said. Even when we argue, you know, by the way, there is an issue around Robert Kraft. We're not going to get into it, but it is a little scary.

24:51Kara Swisher:The issue of Robert Kraft is like he lets Kanye in and not this guy. Like if you're going to do this, be consistent. I didn't like him colluding with everybody. You have to be consistent. You can have whoever you want over for dinner. I get it. But the colluding among all of them was hmm, hmm, hmm. See, I don't know that part. Who was colluding? Yeah, he called all the other stadium owners, all the rich guys. Right. And to me, that's collusion. I'm sorry. It's just kind of, oh, wow, that's kind of scary. Well, that's a little mean girls. We were allowed to do it. I know, but it doesn't make me happy.

25:19Kara Swisher:I think it's just, I think we should let everybody say what they want to say. That's what I said. Anyway. You want to come to my house with a hook nose. and make fun of Jews, you're not coming to my house. You don't have First Amendment rights in my house. I would never do that. Well, I know. I'm not saying you would. I'm just trying to make a point. I don't. Yes, I get it. I get it. I think that whatever his name is, Macklemore, has a right to go on Broadway with a microphone dressed up however he wants and say very offensive things. Public space, have added brother. Yeah, yeah. In this case, what he said wasn't as offensive.

25:51Kara Swisher:It was the past stuff, I think, that they were reacting to some of the past behaviors and dress ups and stuff like that. It's pretty ugly. Ed Sheeran looks pretty ugly. It's pretty ugly. Oh, I didn't believe I had to hear about Ed Sheeran. Oh, poor Ed Sheeran. Poor little Ed Sheeran. These celebrities try so hard not to get involved, and they just get into it. Yeah, he kind of woke up and like, what the fuck? Yeah, he then, of course, did a little virtue signaling in his concert. Anyway, I don't care about it. I haven't been following Ed. The people in Gaza are suffering, that kind of stuff. He did one of those speeches.

26:20Kara Swisher:Oh, wow, you're really going on a limb there. Yeah, I know, exactly. I just don't want to think about Ed Sheeran. I don't like him, so it doesn't matter. You don't like his music? No, he's just stupid. It's like elevator music to me. That is anti-Palestine. I know it is. Oh, my God. You must like Taylor. Oh, my God. I love him. You don't like his music? I don't. I hate it. In any case, here's the last thing I would say about this whole thing is, where is Elon Musk, the free speech warrior on all this? Nowhere to be seen. These people, as Amanda, my wife, says, were pretending. All these free speech warriors were pretending.

26:56Kara Swisher:Yeah, that was all bullshit. It's all bullshit. Anyway, let's get back to the tech of it all. When we get back after a quick break, we get ready for Amazon Blocks, Meta AI's assistant, Muse.

27:11Hey, what's up, guys? It's Babish. And on this week's episode of In the Booth, I'm joined by chef, cookbook author, and food network legend, Alex Guarnaschelli. We're talking about Chopped, the Hamptons, and what it takes to make a cry-worthy pasta. You can listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Support for the show comes from ShipStation. Business owners are always looking for ways to be more efficient, both with their time and with their money. And the one thing that most businesses overpay for? Shipping. That's why ShipStation exists, to not only make shipping easier, but to help you save money while you do it.

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28:33Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from Upwork. The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs so you can focus on what you do best and let the experts handle the rest. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across more than 125 categories. Find talent and start filling those skill gaps. Launch projects faster and scale support up or down without committing to full-time head count. You can browse profiles, review people's past work, and get help scoping the role.

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29:47Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back. It's time for some AI news because, you know, it's not killing us this week, but they're just beefing with each other. First up, Amazon has blocked Meta's new Muse AI assistant from shopping on Amazon, saying Meta didn't get permission for letting the agent access its store. Amazon says Muse raises security and privacy concerns because it can access customer accounts and order histories, and it doesn't identify itself as an AI agent while browsing. It's interesting because you have to—I just downloaded Muse, and I gave Mark Zuckerberg almost zero access to anything, including my Amazon.

30:18Kara Swisher:He wanted to go buy something for me on Amazon, and I said no. I didn't give it the access to it. But if I give it the access, it's none of Amazon's fucking business if I want this thing to shop for me. Not that I would let it. I didn't let Muse have my mail. It's probably going to be very ineffective. Or my access to my Gmail or access to my calendar or access to my – some people are giving their financial stuff, not giving it access. I just want to see how it does on lots of little things, like I'm going to Vienna tomorrow. What's a good walk? That kind of stuff. What do you think about this pushing back Amazon?

30:53Kara Swisher:This is going to happen a lot, right? Correct? Because they're going to want you to use their Amazon AI, presumably, which I use, by the way, when I use the service. I like your take, and I'm just sort of processing this real time because, for example, if you use a VPN and you do it at two in the morning or you fool, you say you dial into United Airlines or JetBlue from a different country at a different time, it'll give you a lower fare because it discriminates. And so the airlines want to block VPNs. Actually, I don't know if that's true, but I would imagine they have an economic incentive. And Amazon has said, we don't want people super smart, or we don't want thousands of agents coordinating, trying to figure out the lowest price and when to buy, and they're blocking it.

31:37my initial reaction was, I think this is an incredible product opportunity for Amazon. And I want the same Amazon tollbooth gate governor to be deployed across every content creator such that when any AI or crawler comes for any of my IP, I set the parameters on whether I want it done. I want to charge for it. And then the bot decides if it wants to come in, if it wants to pay. That's absolutely really smart.

32:08Kara Swisher:That's a great business opportunity. Because the model here is pretty basic. People say, well, AI is effectively ingesting every piece of human IP ever created, strip mining it, and selling it back to the people who it's putting out of work. There's a real legitimate concern there. And the model is very basic. When you listen to KROQ 106.7 Rock of the 80s in Los Angeles, which is the greatest radio station in history, and you listen to the B-52s, at the end of the year, KROQ pays the recording artists, whatever, call it. Yeah, RIA, I think it is. They pay them to call it a million bucks because all of the artists have agreed to license their music, and then the Brights Association distributes it out.

32:53And then they go, okay, KROQ, you are 1 % of our playlist, and they send$10 ,000 to Warner Brothers, who represents the B-52s. I think we need the same technology here. I'm all for AI having access to data. I would like AI to have access to my data. I like it when people say write something in the voice of Scott Galloway or what is the lesson on sweating and economic security from algebra. I just want to be either compensated for it.

33:21Kara Swisher:Actually, it's a smarter way to get content. Because it used to be you sort of get a vig if they got you pay pennies. And that was always so confusing. It is a smart way to get paid for content. I think the issue here is these two beasts fighting, AI beasts fighting each other. Amazon has a ton of AI in it. I use Amazon a lot, much to my chagrin and my wife's chagrin. But it's really effective. And I have to sort of stack rank the people I'm offended with in tech. and it's I'm focused on Andy Jassy not Jeff Bezos in this situation which is a stupid excuse I know but but they use a ton of AI and I find myself using it more and more does this like I just bought it sounds silly but I want my washers and dryers to move out so I could clean behind them because I'm anal retentive and I said oh does this hold this much weight or what about this kind of washing machine I had and answered me it was like instead of me searching around or how high is it off the ground?

34:19Kara Swisher:And instead of me, I could have found it, but you'd have to sort of sort out, you know, scroll, scroll, scroll, click, click, click, essentially. And in this case, it answered in seconds. The same thing with Muse. Have you downloaded Muse yet or not? You're the most promiscuous person on earth on these things. Did you not download it yet? That's a lot of meaning. I haven't, but it's number one in the app store. And I actually, I'm not sure, and I'm going to think this through more. I wouldn't be surprised if Muse ends up being the biggest player in AI. I would agree. I would agree. There's another company called Instinct, which is a smaller company that also gets – I was looking at – someone sent me a list of how good these things are.

34:58Kara Swisher:And Muse and Instinct rate at the top compared to all of them. Although I think you're going to use AIs separately. Like the Amazon AIs, I don't think Muse will be as helpful as the Amazon and what I'm buying, right? It might be okay, but I get better information from Amazon. But it will be a race to see which AI you tend to use as a utility going forward. I just don't want to give Mark Zuckerberg access to my email. I worry, what if I have an email in there, something about him that I'm working on? Who knows? I can just imagine it. And that's my worry is who do you trust? Do you trust Apple? I don't trust Apple as much as I used to, that's for sure.

35:37You shouldn't have to trust companies. You should trust regulators who make laws.

35:40Kara Swisher:And I was looking at it very carefully, and I suspect it's easy to hack. That's one of the things. But you do have to give permission. And it has less, the more permission you give it to access your stuff, the better it is for you as an assistant. I called my assistant on Muse Mark, by the way, and then I've now ordered it to look like Mark Zuckerberg so I can order Mark Zuckerberg around. But it's a really interesting, I would recommend you trying that, and I'm trying Instinct, too, just to try it. But again, it's not as much efficacy without stuff. But these guys are going to, these Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Meta are going to battle it out over who your assistant is at this point.

36:23Kara Swisher:And I guess Microsoft? I don't know. I think Facebook could win here quite handily. The brightest mind in business is Mark Zuckerberg. And unfortunately, most good CEOs verge on sociopathy. He verges on psychopathy. And so think about how brilliant he is. He makes a good product. He finds an incredibly attractive person to serve as heat shield and be the comms person and says to him, for$10,$50,$100 million, you, Sheryl Sandberg, Nick Clegg. And who's the latest heat shield that's reputation is going to be in tatters in about 36 months? Dina Powell. Yeah, Dina's about to become the new face of awful.

37:01But she knows it. She's a smart woman. And she can surround herself with a lot of people who like her and a lot of Vaseline on the lens.

37:10Kara Swisher:Well, she is charming. Sheryl Sandberg is what it was like. The only argument about Sheryl Sandberg was, was she going to be California governor and president? Until we figured out she invented a business model where 15-year-old girls were cutting themselves and then tried to cover it up. And then Nick Klig with his charming British accent. Okay. All right, Nick, you're lying too. The latest, highest paid liar in history who's – he's so good at this. He finds these incredibly attractive people. I bet the conversation is very straightforward. Your reputation is about to be ruined for the rest of your life.

37:42Kara Swisher:Yeah, but you get to sit on that sweet, sweet dough. But you wouldn't do it. You can console yourself in your villa in St. Barts and on your private jet. He's – and not only that, his ability to go – to skate to where the puck is. And here's the thing, AI, loosely speaking, in terms of who wins, the three legs of the stool are the compute, the model itself, how sophisticated it is, your access to GPUs or infrastructure for inference and compute. And then the raw material is the data or the input. I would argue that the part that gets commodified is the actual technology or the LLM itself. everyone can buy the GPUs as long as you kiss Jensen's ass long enough and you can find the money the point of differentiation will be your access to first party data who has more access to first party data I agree with you I think it's between meta and Apple and Apple's really slow I don't think Apple wants to be I think they're going to outsource it as an agent like creating an agent for you like Siri has been such a fucking disaster anyway it'll be an interesting fight between companies like Amazon keeping people out because they're not going to want Muse up in their grill right That's the thing.

38:53Kara Swisher:And it is powerful. But I have to say, if I give Muse permission to look at my Amazon data, fuck you, Amazon. But I'm not going to Amazon. But you just said something, access. The biggest, people always ask me, what do you do with AI? And I say, I use it to edit stuff. I look for data. But the biggest unlock was I gave Claude Pro or Cowork, whatever it's called. He's a terrible brand. Anyways, permission to look at my email. Oh, my God. I read about a company I invested in eight years ago, and I have no idea. Please look at my emails, see how many shares I own, then look at the web and see what those shares are worth in the secondary market.

39:30And it comes back and says, you've lost 80 % of your value. But at least I know.

39:34Kara Swisher:Yeah, now you know. It's like that South Park episode. That South Park episode. Cartman goes into a bank. He got a bond from his grandfather. He's like, I'm here to invest$50. And I'm like, okay. And it's gone. That's true. What a great show that is, I have to say. In other AI news, just this is interesting. Anthropic, OpenAge, SpaceX, AI, and Google are being sued by a group of AI subscribers who claim the company's illegally agreed to slow down AI development. The plaintiffs argue that a coordinated slowdown would hurt consumers by making products improve more slowly while subscribers keep paying the same prices.

40:08Kara Swisher:This is an innovative way to do this. You know, they're facing heat everywhere. Slow down, speed up. We are paying money for this stuff. good money for this stuff. It's going to kill us, that kind of stuff. And in related news, Donald Trump says he's creating an AI force modeled on the Space Force while dismissing concerns about AI as a hoax. He's offered few details about his AI force. I think he just made it up in the middle of the night. It's unclear whether it would be military, civilian agency, how it would operate or where funding would come from. Trump also says he'll name a new czar soon, a position previously held by David Sachs.

40:43Kara Swisher:And grift watch alert as Trump pushes back on the calls for AI slowdown. He and his family are profiting from the AI boom. What a surprise, according to the Washington Post. By the way, even if Jeff Bezos is a coward, the Post news section is doing a great job. Trump's investment accounts have disclosed nearly 30 ,000 security transactions since his return to White House. Transactions include buying and selling shares in companies that provide the chip servers and energy-powering AI. The White House says the investments are handled by independent managers. I'm sure it's the same feeling of paying back the a Russian person who paid for Donald Trump Jr.'s wedding.

41:19Kara Swisher:So talk a little bit of this. You've got the political part. You've got the lawsuits that go all kinds of ways. There's obviously the political elements of what's happening. And then over in California, Gavin Newsom just issued an executive order to speed up two AI safety laws and explore requiring AI companies to build a kill switch. Talk about all this sort of shifting forces all over the place, whether it's legal, political, state. So a lot here. I think they've mislabeled this. I don't think they should refer to it as a kill switch. I think we need circuit breakers. And there's just never been a need or a bigger white space for a regulatory body to come in and have subpoena power, testing and approval requirements, hold periods, the equivalent of the NTSB that every incident you have to report immediately.

42:07LA, I believe we can absolutely handle it. So every CEO can believe AI is dangerous and still be rationally compelled to accelerate because what this is is the prisoner's dilemma. And I don't think a pause is realistic. I think the incentives are against that. And also, there are some really wonderful things happening with AI acceleration, including trying to address climate change. So the strange thing about the industry, the people building the bomb are also the ones telling us the bombs scare the shit out of them, while investors ask for another$100 billion to build a bigger bomb before the other guy does.

42:51And that's why voluntary coordination just doesn't work here. It's economically unstable and why coordination would instantly create antitrust questions. The biggest opportunity for the Trump administration, which I think they'll miss, is a really thoughtful administration would have already had several hundred diplomats, economists, technologists from China and the U.S. hold up somewhere in Alaska or in South Korea outlining a memo of understanding around cooperation around AI.

43:24Kara Swisher:But what about this space force? He loves to have a space force or an AI force and a czar and this and that. This requires an enormous, as you said, coordination, both domestically and internationally. And instead, he wants to have some guy in charge. Like, this is my AI guy. Yeah, that's loyal to me. Loyal to me. And it's like so self-interested like David Sachs has been. And then he himself is buying and selling stocks in this area. I mean, the fact, you know, the crypto bill collapsed, the Clarity Act, there was a great story in I think the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal about the collapse of it.

44:01Kara Swisher:Largely because, one, Brian Armstrong, who was leading it at Coinbase, is a horse's ass. That's one. And two, they couldn't, you know, the grift of Trump was so massive that it gave Democrats an in to like torpedo it. And rightfully so, because they wouldn't do the correct, you know, stopping, you know, this grifter family from taking things. And they're doing the exact same thing over in AI investments. Yeah. So there's two things here. There's space and there's corruption. I think one of the biggest opportunities. So amongst the many existential threats facing Americans right now, I hearken back to the days when the elevators were going to stop and Y2K or Greek sovereign debt was supposedly going to affect all of Europe and take the global economy down.

44:49I long for the days of just people dying from COVID. Oh, God. This is. Yeah, but I mean, think about this. Every day it's a mass extinction event. Mass extinction. Well, but one of those existential crises is, in fact, our debt. And I'm writing a lot about this right now. A third rail, everyone talks about the third rail of entitlements. We need to have a serious conversation around our military spending. And there's a big opportunity to take the one word that defines the Ukrainian and the war in Iran, and that is asymmetry, and figure out a way to partner with companies like Anderol and say, okay, Northrop Grumman and Boeing, there's just been so much creep.

45:39When you have a weapons program for a plane, which is a great plane that's going to cost one and a half trillion dollars, and the Pentagon hasn't passed an audit, let's think big. How could we take, how could we turn our military into the most lethal fighting force ever that costs 500 billion a year instead of one and a half trillion? Because the problem is we associate that number with macho. And every Democrat is afraid to say, let's take it down to 1.49 because that means I don't have testicles.

46:10Kara Swisher:Right. But, you know, it's Hexeth that's trying to integrate AI into it. It's just that he's a moron and it's not the person you want to be doing something. So that's a confidence issue. But there is something about asymmetric warfare that leverages our unique advantage about our ability to haul stuff into space, our ability around connectivity, the fact that we have the best universities in the world looking at this stuff. And also, Also, it might make sense to partner with the EU, Canada. That would be nice. And possibly, possibly China. Also, Ukraine. Do you see what they're doing, blowing up all manner of things in Russia, which Trump is trying to get them to stop?

46:50Kara Swisher:Unbelievable. On an$80 billion millet. Unbelievable what this country is doing. The most successful fighting force in the world is doing it on a budget of$80 billion. And we're losing a war in Iran on$1.5 trillion. Yeah. How do we have five times the fighting force and lethality of the Ukrainian army for$400 billion or$500 billion instead of$1.5 trillion, where we have literally$1 billion bombers? May I make a historical point? Most of the people that fought the Roman Empire had equal amounts of—there was not a lot of innovation in weaponry—equal amounts of weapons, same weapons. They did it through organization, discipline, and strategy, really, right?

47:27Kara Swisher:And in this case, it's not necessarily the weapons. It's that how do you deploy it? And we should be able to do this. It is kind of shocking how much Ukraine is doing with very little money. And, of course, Trump is trying to stop them because he's Putin's bitch. Anyway, this is the last thing. Anthropic is reportedly pushing its IPO from October to November. Investors are talking about a potential$2 trillion valuation. Anthropics expect to reach more than$100 billion in annualized revenue by the end of the year, up from$65 billion as of July. The company could publicly release financial documents about the offering as soon as a couple weeks from now.

48:08Kara Swisher:I'm sure you'll be poring over them. Those sources tell the Wall Street Journal the decision to aim for November was made before the former Anthropic researcher warned that AI companies are moving too fast. Give us some predictions. Will Anthropics IPO really happen this year? It would be bigger than SpaceX? It would be if that's the case. And also there is people feel like the latest version of chat GPT is getting some real traction. I forget what it's called. They all have new fucking names. It drives me crazy. Do you feel what do you how do you look at this? This is a shift. And it was again before this hair on fire stuff around this researcher.

48:40Kara Swisher:Let me just make one note. It's incredible. I'm working on a book right now that and I went back and found some old speeches of Sam Altman. 2015, he said virtually the same thing this researcher said. So this is not new, a lot of these worries. He wrote an essay, the first sentence of which is essentially AI will kill all of humanity or could kill all of humanity. Anyway, what do you think about the Anthropic IPO? But let's buy some stocks, Scott. What do you think about it? Well, so the$2 trillion valuation is what they're saying and$100 billion run rate by the end of the year. It's not a company going public.

49:15It's a country's GDP going public. And that's why Trump has been so compromised. He wants a piece of it and he sees it as more important. So he's like distinctive extinction risk, existential risk, go baby, go. I doubt it gets done by the end of the year because of all of the different. Well, I think they have to. To a certain extent, I don't want to say I feel sorry for these guys, but they have their series ABCD ENF investors. there are probably no less than 50 VCs who managed to get into the B or C round of Anthropic, who are sitting on a septic tank of shit that just didn't work. And the difference between them raising fund three and being a hero and being the guy who started a VC fund and it didn't work is whether this thing gets public at the valuation.

50:05So he's got, in addition, he probably has thousands of people who've put a down payment on a ridiculously overpriced house in San Francisco who borrowed from the in-laws saying, oh, it's going to go public in three months, not going to have$11 million. There are a lot of incentives for this guy to get public. At the same time, not having put in place guardrails, not having put in place or understanding the regulatory framework. I mean, there's a lot of things that just say maybe a pause to slow down that gives them a chance to maybe kind of check back on the capex and report a quarter of increased or gives people greater visibility into where they...

50:46They released one of these ridiculous WeWork-like EBITDA statements saying, well, if you don't look, if you take out inference and compute, we're profitable. It's like when WeWork tried to calculate EBITDA.

50:58Kara Swisher:The flour, the bread is really... Take out, yeah, take out. It's kind of like profits before any costs. Yeah. I mean, it's just so stupid, right? So it feels to me like he's got a lot on his plate to get a public offering done. So you think a push, a push. I got to think that if it happens, it's going to be Q1. We're running out of time. Do they do January IPOs? I don't see why not. Well, I know, but I don't recall a lot. Like, is it March or? The honest answer, Cara, is I don't know. That's a lot of pent up. That could really be bad, especially if the stock market blows, which, you know, a lot of the stock people feel like they're calling for these slowdowns in order to catch up.

51:44Kara Swisher:Right. Like that it's all a faint. I think they've got to. I just going public in the midst of insecurity about a mass extinction event. Yeah, I agree. It feels. I mean, let me put it this way. You know what I'm really excited? I'm really excited to read a section in the S1 called Risks. Risks. I mean, how are they going to outline this risk? Well, the thing is, both Altman and Amodi have so much. I've just been digging into stuff from 10 years ago. Because I'd said on the stage at Atlantic this week, I was at the Atlantic Conference, which was an excellent conference, by the way, that I was at dinner parties where they were all saying these things.

52:27Kara Swisher:like very clearly. Like I was like, I don't know why this young researcher suddenly got to everyone, but these guys were saying it. And then I went and found a lot of their early writings and it literally says, probably it'll kill us. This is how much it'll kill us. The thing we'll probably die from is this. Like they have so much history of this that it's really, you know, I just want to make sure I was, I mean, I remember these dinner parties, but at the time it was speculative, right? And now they, I guess, are seeing some proof whether it's Google jumping out of the sandbox or them jumping out of the sandbox.

53:01Kara Swisher:They haven't yet gotten to a missile silo, but it's only five minutes till that. So it'll be interesting. So you think it's going to push till next? Will it be that big? Will there be a lot of demand for this? Oh, God, yes. I mean, I keep hearing the numbers are doubling every month and I'm going back to this big... You'll buy it. If I could get on the IPO, I would buy it and then flip it on the first trade. Flip it, see? Buy it, flip it is what you... No doubt. I mean, this is going to be, this will be the most anticipated IPO in history, more so. But just going back to the metaphor or the analogy used around cooperation, an IPO requires the cooperation of hundreds, if not thousands of entities in people.

53:44And trying to be the first IPO while claiming the moral high ground.

53:51Kara Swisher:I know. While saying you might kill everybody. Yeah, it's complicated. Yeah, anthropic doesn't want to be first. It's just that going first also happens to serve the safety narrative and the balance sheet at the same time. Nature doesn't ask the coral and the fish if they love each other, but there's going to have to be some sort of cooperation and detente and reasonable sense of safety as arbitrated, I would think, by a regulator. By regulator. They shouldn't have this stupid AI force. There should be significant regulation. They should back it. You know, they're always worried about it in a way.

54:31Kara Swisher:This would help them. You're absolutely right. By the way, I had heard from someone that they didn't think that OpenAI would go out at all, which was interesting. That's another topic. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back with Chinese President Xi coming to the U.S. American automakers have a warning for Donald Trump.

54:53Kara Swisher:Support for the show comes from Attio. There are sales teams out there who never seem to stop moving, always a step ahead, always on the number, working with a level of precision that doesn't seem normal. It's no secret. They're on Attio, the Adjantic CRM. Attio runs the work behind every win. It's built for humans and agents with the guardrails of human software and the scale of Adjantic infrastructure. Every customer signal your team needs is captured in high resolution, always current and always compounding. Then watch Atio's agents and workflow go to work, building pipeline, chasing every buying signal, and moving deals forward 24-7.

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56:49Kara Swisher:That's granola.ai slash pivot to get your time back. Go to granola.ai slash pivot and try it on your next call. Support for this show comes from Quince. Do you have a favorite thing in your closet? The thing you look forward to breaking out every year? Maybe it's your favorite sweater, the jeans that go with everything, or the bag that goes wherever you do. Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe, and that's exactly what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated, everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and washable silk. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again.

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58:19Kara Swisher:Scott, we're back as Donald Trump gets ready to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping in D.C. this week. A coalition of automakers and dealers is asking him to keep Chinese cars out of the country. That's a damn shame because they're adorable. The group urged Trump in a letter to keep the door firmly shut to Chinese automakers raising concerns about job loss and national security. They should be concerned. Again, these models are fantastic. Trump recently said he'd be open to Chinese companies building cars here as long as they hire American workers, which they've done many foreign countries have done before.

58:48Kara Swisher:One more wrinkle, Xi is expected to bring a group of Chinese business leaders with him to the U.S. and might include the founder of Chinese EV, giant BYD. Of course he would. Thoughts about this? What do you think is going to happen here? I don't think there's going to be a discussion of AI safety, is my guess, or it's not going to be a significant one. Yeah, I think he'll be more focused on claiming stupid shit like I've got more tariffs and we're going to give people$5 ,000 back. Detroit wants the summit's diplomatic cooperation, right? They want some sort of disabled truth or they want protection.

59:20And asking Xi to show up as a bonobo and negotiate as a chimp, so to speak. Like, I don't, look, I hate to say this. When I was in a BYD in Brazil.

59:34Kara Swisher:They're everywhere. And I got in and I thought, oh, this is a Model Y or whatever. He says, no, it's a BYD. And I said, how much is it? And he said, he figured out it was like$14 ,000 or$16 ,000. I'm like, we're fucked. I said the same thing when I saw them. When my first big consulting, this is the best engagement in the world. When I was right out of business school, I met a guy named Warren Hellman. And he said, I've got a great assignment for you. I want you to come to every Levi Strauss and Company board meeting. I don't want you to sit next to anybody. I don't want you to talk to anybody.

1:00:00I want you to listen for two days. And then I want you to stand up and tell us exactly what you think. I was 27.

1:00:06Kara Swisher:Wow. This was the best consulting engagement in history. That's why you're the way that you are. That's why I'm the way that I am. Anyways, I remember this. We were in Singapore, and they were having this big debate about continuing to manufacture Levi's in the South. And I said, okay, all this is is a transfer of wealth from your shareholders to the good people in those factories. But I said, I know how the story ends. In 10 years, you're not going to be manufacturing denim in the United States because you will eventually opt for shareholder value and reinvest in places with higher paid jobs and grow your company.

1:00:43I, for the first time, I'm beginning to believe that American cars are Levi's. I don't know if we're going to be manufacturing them in 20 years. Because when I look at cars coming out of China and they have cars now that can go 600 miles without a charge, are zero to 60 in two and a half seconds.

1:01:03Kara Swisher:All manner of gigas on them that are fun, like all manner of fun features. Cost$40 ,000. And there's some that are six and seven thousand. Remember, I bought my, I don't know what your first car cost, but I had a Honda Civic for$6 ,000, something like that. Oh, God, I've had so many bad cars. I had a Volkswagen Rabbit. Then I had a Renault Le Car. I had a Rabbit. Then I had a Chevy Chevelle brand. I had a Rabbit. Convertible. Then I had a BMW 318i. Oh, you moved up. I went down. You went up and I went down. I kept going up and up the food chain. Anyways. Yeah. My last car was a Range Rover. $120 ,000.

1:01:39It's a cooler brand than what they're producing in China, but China is effectively making a better SUV for$40 ,000. And I just don't think we can compete.

1:01:49Kara Swisher:Yeah. So what should go happen at this summit? Like, there's not going to be any AI stuff. I doubt it. I don't think it's within his ability unless he's going to get a gimme. I don't know. I can just hope that the political move they could restore, if they were truly focused on what would be best for them, America, and quite frankly, in the midterms, would be to announce, have somebody in the administration who's smart say, we have been negotiating behind the scenes for several months on AI. And we've come to an understanding on the following important things around weapons, around privacy, around...

1:02:22Here's what AI is at the end of the day, good AI. A small rural hospital in Alabama can incorporate the same AI best practices or best practices using AI to reduce sepsis as they're doing at the University of California, San Francisco, which is the best hospital in the world. It levels up. It can help people treat - Level up.

1:02:43Kara Swisher:Level up. It's a leveler up. Whether you're in Lagos Lagos or in Lausanne, Switzerland, this is an opportunity to bring middle powers up. That's a good AI. The bad fucking AI is that right now only nine nations could produce a nuclear bomb. We might be at 149 nations in six months. That's the bad AI. It's a leveler for good intentions. There are cyber crime organizations of 200, 300 people. There's a feeling with AI, you can start the same cyber crime organization with one person now. Right, yeah. Unless we get together and cooperate specifically with China, you're going to see a leveling up in very bad ways.

1:03:28And these guys, I mean, this is basically the equivalent of a cybercrime organization, which supposedly is costing the global economy trillions of dollars. It's about to go from 200 or 300 people in Russia or Ukraine to one person with a Claude Pro subscription. So these guys getting together and saying, we are starting the most effective, transparent, multilateral enforcement and regulator agency. We don't want our kids killing themselves.

1:03:54Kara Swisher:And the chances of this, Scott. This is the opportunity for a Democrat. We're going to go the other way. We're going to create a free trading zone, a non-tariff zone, cooperation around military and AI, the likes of which you have never seen. And we're going to unlock so much fucking economic growth and reduce the existential risk here because democracies and China, which deserves a seat at the table, because whether you like it or not, they're number two, and they have brought 500 million people out of poverty. We are going to, on a different level, cooperate with them, but we're going to create an indomitable entity of democracies and capitalist societies around economics that will result in massive deflation, prosperity, shared best practices, force people to respect their borders.

1:04:42China's not evading anybody.

1:04:43Kara Swisher:I love all this, but you know what? It's really important to keep Caitlin Collins out of the White House. That should be our focus, okay? Because she never smiles. All right, Scott, One more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

1:04:59So like any good millennial, I have a love-hate relationship with Gen Z. It's the phenomenon rattling millennials. They just look at you. They want something bigger themselves. Lifestyle is a priority. Motivation is being inspired. But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national politics.

1:05:20Kara Swisher:Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties, many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids? I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialists. That is just not the case. They are embracing candidates who are offering new, bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America Actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jambaza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science. And this is, you know, I keep saying like young voters aren't that complicated after all.

1:05:57Kara Swisher:It's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:06:04When it comes to politics, should we just stop trying to change each other's minds?

1:06:08Kara Swisher:I do think that we would all be a lot happier and more effective if we focused on the opening of the mind versus the changing. And that's not to say that opening of minds over the course of time can't lend itself to change. I'm Preet Bharara. And this week, Jessica Tarlov, the lone liberal co-host of Fox News' The Five and co-host of the Vox Media podcast Raging Moderates, joins me to discuss her new book, I Disagree. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

1:06:44You might have noticed that when you go to the supermarket these days, you can get all kinds of milk, and many of them have no relationship to a cow.

1:06:53Kara Swisher:Soy, almond, and oat are the usual suspects, but you can get rice and hemp and pea and cashew and macadamia and pistachio and coconut. The list just goes on and on. Take oat milk. About a decade ago, I'd never even heard of it. But then suddenly, oat milk was everywhere. And some people were even willing to pony up around 100 bucks for a carton. Why? What happened? The whole plant milk vibe seems to be that they're healthy and good for the planet. But is that true? Are they better for us and for the environment than cow's milk? All that plus the weird story of how we even came to drink cow's milk in the first place in this brand new episode of Gastropod.

1:07:30Find Gastropod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

1:07:39Kara Swisher:Okay, Scott, wins and fails. I'm going to go first. I have a lot of fails. I'm going to do them all at once. I have one win. I know people have issues with the New York Times, all my inner issues, but what an amazing media organization. Congratulations on your birthday. And thank you for letting me hear Janelle Monae up close. That was really cool. And it was a really fun party. So congratulations. That's my win. The fails are so many, I don't know where to count. First, why did Amazon cancel Ride or Die with Hannah Waddingham and Octavia Spencer? It was their number one show. Someone buy it. Apple, I don't care.

1:08:12Kara Swisher:It's such a good show. And it was like ladies with guns are my favorite thing. That was a fail. Another fail was obviously all the quizlings that went along with Trump on the First Amendment stuff. You know, you better like the First Amendment because it's coming for you if you don't protect it. That's the number one amendment. You should protect it above all things of the many rights we have. It's one of them. That First Amendment with lots of stuff in there is the most important of all of them. And the last one is this insane fucking I live in Washington. I'm getting a little sick of this, President Trump.

1:08:46Kara Swisher:You're making a mess of everything. But your planned 250-foot triumphal arch that is going to be on my way to the airport, which I already have to see your big-ass golden horses, which is irritating enough, will now double as a military complex. Because nothing says democracy like housing drone snipers and large amounts of ammunition in your monuments. I just don't know what to say. This is insane if we let him build this. I hope we stop him. Same thing with the Kennedy Center. There was a lot of people. just the whole manner of things. It's just a massive bail here. And so I just, I don't know what to say about it, but I hope there's enough legal moves to stop him from doing all of this manner of things because it really is, again, working my last nerve.

1:09:30I have two wins and a fail. My first win is New York. I spent the entire weekend here and did my favorite thing, roamed around Jack's wife Frida, bought t-shirts at James Purse, sunglasses at Warby Parker, shoes it on, went to Blank Street Coffee and mocked all the Gen Zers or whatever they're called waiting in line two hours for yogurt at this weird place called Mimi's. New Yorker Nowhere has a line of an hour. I'm telling you, Cara, you don't recognize you're in a golden age when you're in it. This is a golden age in New York. Really? Packed. I was there too.

1:10:06Kara Swisher:Packed. Crazy packed. Packed. Everywhere. Last year, 65 million people visited New York, 80 billion in economic activity. It supports 400 ,000 jobs. It used to be 54 % of New York's economy. Now it's 60%. We've created 1 million jobs since COVID. There's always an asterisk. Most of those jobs are healthcare. So most of the jobs are looking after old people. But wow, has this... I went to Sartianos. I went to, as usual, Zero Bond and Chez Margot. Everything is packed. Everyone is friendly. No one's at home planning the extinction of the human species. People are not at home gambling on whether the Fed raises interest rates.

1:10:47Kara Swisher:Also, neighborhoods that are usually quiet are down near the memorial. I was down there. Tons of people. You have that festival, San Geronimo, whatever the fuck it is. I went there and I bought baked oysters. I mean, it just, or fried oysters. Oh, the Italian one, yeah. The city, the Disneyland of democracy and capitalism right now is New York, and it is wonderful. He's Trump is visiting his his best friend. It's got absolutely to do with nothing with Mom Domini. No, I know it doesn't. But I'm just saying he gets the credit. He'll get the credit. Well, OK, fine. He'll get the credit. He's doing a good job.

1:11:19But if you were going to if you were going to credit anybody would be Eric Adams. And after Mom Domini's off. Anyway, there's a lag period in government. That's my whole point. Fine.

1:11:27Kara Swisher:He's still going to get credit. But he's I agree. He will get the credit. My point is New York is just killing it on fire right now. And the bad news is our inflation is 4.6 % versus 3.4. It's sort of a metaphor for America. And that is if you're at the right place at the right time, you are just killing it. If you're the kind of person that shows up for jury duty, your rent's going up too much and you're incurring inflation. But anyways, it always has to be an asterisk. My second win, I stumbled on what I think is the coolest nonprofit in the world. And I DMed them and I haven't heard back. And there's some virtue signaling here, but I'm going to do it anyways.

1:12:01I have finally found the nonprofit that I was born to support. It's called Giving Words. And it's a Virginia nonprofit organization that fixes up, donated used cars, and then gives them away to single mothers. And one of the biggest barriers to economic independence for single mothers is they can't afford to get to job interviews. They have to take public transportation. In rural areas, there is no public transportation. It is a huge barrier to economic independence.

1:12:31Kara Swisher:This isn't 1-800-CARS-4-KIDS, right? That song? It's not that one. No, this is not that. This is not that. This is Edie Brown, this husband and wife, Edie Brown and Ginny established the charity in 2018 after identifying reliable transportation as a critical obstacle for single mothers trying to access employment, education, and healthcare. You're going to love this. They partner with the local high schools and the organization partners with the Automative Technology Program at Louisa County High School in Mineral, Virginia, where students gain hands-on vocational experience repairing the donated vehicles.

1:13:10And they've refurbished and donated more than 60 free vehicles to families in need. So Eddie and Jenny, reach out to me. I'd like to be supportive. But this is about single moms. It's about economic opportunity. It's about teaching young men vocational skills. I just, I read this and I thought, oh my God.

1:13:31Kara Swisher:It was designed for Scott's single mom. I feel like, I'm like, I wish I'd thought of this. I wish I'd thought of this. Anyways, my second win and I'm serious. Eddie and Ginny reach out to me. If you Google me, you get way too much information and can reach out to me. But my loss or my fail is there's all this scuttlebutton reporting about Democratic elders trying to talk Vice President Harris out of running for president. Vice President Harris, outstanding senator. I think she'd been outstanding justice. I thought she was a lousy presidential candidate. She didn't make it even to Iowa in 2020.

1:14:08I thought she was given a raw deal in 2024, and I will give her this. I thought she had one of the most outstanding political performances of the last 50 years in her debate with Donald Trump. I can't imagine the pressure on her. I do not think she's a good candidate. The poll sure is number one right now. I think that's mostly name recognition. The majority of people who take those polls just say, oh, I've heard of her and I've heard of that handsome guy in California. I don't think she will make it very far this time, but let her cook.

1:14:37Kara Swisher:That's correct. Thank you, Scott. I thought you'd say, yeah, that's a good idea. I hate when elders visit people. I hate it. When the Democratic or the Republic machine pick a candidate or try to get Bernie out or say, McCain, you're the right person, it never works. Let me give you who the people polling number one were in the Republican presidential elections at this moment. At this moment, polling number one was Rudy Giuliani. At this moment, polling number one was Herman Cain. At this moment, polling number one was, oh, this is my favorite, Fred Thompson from Law and Order. He was actually polling number one.

1:15:10Kara Swisher:He was good on Law and Order. The full body contact violence of the primary process not only surfaces the right person, but for the right person for the moment. Nobody thought Nixon had any business running for president again, again, and again. And he won. So while I personally don't think Vice President Harris would make a good president, let her cook. She might make a good president. She doesn't make a good candidate, right? Who knows? And guess what? Are you kidding? It's such a full fucking bar at this point. But go ahead. The primary process is like Navy SEALs training. It produces a fucking warrior when you let it run.

1:15:49Kara Swisher:Great, Scott Galloway. I love that. I thought you'd say go with the elders. And the Democratic Party elders don't have a great track record here. Do you know who was at that party? Chuck Schumer. He actually looked good. He looks good for 131. He looks great. He looked good. I would agree with you. He's got his Wheaties going. And the only thing the Democratic elders should be doing right now is saying, how can I help? Have at it. Also, they should be saying, I'm going to select a retirement community now and move along. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

1:16:25Kara Swisher:Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that is the show. What a good show this has been. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Hey, Stephanie Roll and Rachel Maddow. See you soon. I don't know what that means. Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus-Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Kate Gallagher and Brad Sylvester fact-checked this episode. We'll see. And Ernie and her Todd engineered it. Thanks also to Juberos, Mia Saverio, and Dan Chalon. Nishat Kroos, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

1:16:59Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Governors, representatives, senators, former presidential candidates, business people, let them cook. Have at it. Will we get to decide?