Trump's Town Hall, Santos Charged, and STFU with Dan Lyons

22:50That's like weird. And then she correctly said, you said fortunately or unfortunately. And then you say, why fortunately for her? Sexual abuse is fortunate. Like there was just like to get him news. Her job was to make news and she made too much news about herself. Anyway, should CNN have done the town hall, do you think? You said they should. I just don't see how if you're, you know, if you attempt to be America's news network and you have an opportunity to do a town hall or interview the Republican frontrunner and the former president, I don't see how you don't do it. I don't fault them for it.

23:27Should they have done it live or tape? Live to tape. I don't know. But the thing is, his people are not dumb. Yeah. And he, I mean, he comes out of this as, he cemented himself as what I'll call the front runner. And he had, as much as I hate to admit it, he had command of the room. He had a lot of presence. I felt like he not only sort of ran over her, but he ran over the audience a bit, or used them or leveraged them. The thing is, and I don't know if this is just me projecting, but I do think this is playing out as all kind of entities thought or the respective parties thought. And that is, he's going to be the nominee most likely, and Biden is most likely going to beat him because these elections are won by kind of surface area or geography and the issues.

24:21And he did say some things that will come out, you know, the Lincoln Project will have a fun time with saying that Ukraine, that he'd solve it in a day. He comes across as very pro-Putin in Ukraine, that, you know, he would let the nation default. And that's going to come back to haunt him. And the people in the middle who the reason why he won in 16 and lost in 20, the people in the middle in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia must have saw that thing. And again, I'll look at the polling. I just thought, Jesus, do we really want to go back here? Yeah, I think you felt that way. And you I would say you are much more centrist than I am.

25:01Right. I just think CNN as an entity could have just made it newsy, newsy, newsy. Right. And they just didn't. That's what you do with someone like that. You tie these things to them strongly rather than let it get lost in calling her or saying you have to shut down all kinds of personal stuff in media. I thought that it's interesting. The media is obsessed with themselves. And I've found I've seen more analysis of her than of him. Well, I analyze interviews. So I just see the opportunities that were there. She's just fine. She was solid. She's just fine. She did try and she did interrupt him and say, no, that's not true.

25:39Yeah, but that's not enough. Not with him. Look, I, you know, I think she was given, I think we poured honey on her and sent her hunting for bears. That's correct. But just given an impossible task. And I wonder, and I'll look at the polls, it just made me feel so terrible about America. Because here you have a former president of the United States, democratically elected president of the United States, mocking a woman. Two women, her and E.G. and Carroll. Is there any way to platform this constructive? I think there is, but you don't, correct? You don't think there's - Well, I think, look, you know more about the interviewing game than I do.

26:17And you seem, you're confident that someone could figure this out and hold them accountable and hold them to task. Biden figured it out, by the way. Marco Rubio didn't. Neither did all those GOP people, but Biden actually figured it out. I don't know. I thought that that was another instance where I just felt terrible about America. You're talking about the debate? I thought he put a lot of, like, if you look, it was like a closed in boxing match, but he put a lot of punches in his face. He did. He made him seem crazy. He let him say crazy things, and then he appropriately reacted to the crazy.

26:49Yeah, I think you're going to buy too much trade. If I were the Biden team, I would refuse to debate him. Maybe. Maybe. That's interesting. Yeah, I would just say, this format was built for people who have some integrity, who have some fidelity to the truth, and this guy has absolutely neither. But I thought it was I thought it was literally like winning the worst ad for America. I walked away from the thing feeling just very deflated. Deflated, yeah. Well, let me talk again. I'm still going to stick with the opportunities, a line he said about abortion. But now for the first time, the people that are pro-life have negotiating capability because you didn't have it before.

27:30They could kill the baby in the ninth month or after the baby was born. Now they won't be able to do that. But I think this is a really important question for you to answer He said a version of that lie three times without getting called on it. That to me was, you know, and especially when abortion is such a big, big issue. And there was no that's not true kind of thing. Not certainly that was an opportunity lost kind of thing. And again, to tie him to this very clearly was important, I think. He, as he said, we're signaling he's open to the default. These are three big opportunities for the abortion, defaulting on the debt.

28:06But he claimed he could end the Russia-Ukraine war in a day, as you said. The one thing that I think also was feelings about Ukraine that could have definitely not had of a follow-up, but tie him to it where he says this. Well, how would you end it in a day? Yes, how would you end it? There was just simple questions. Call Putin and say what? Do you think Putin's just going to give him land? Yeah, give him – he hates specifics. Then he loses the train of thought when he doesn't. And he's really good, let me just say. And it's really hard, but you can trip him up. I've seen it happen. Like, you've seen it when it works.

28:43And this one, he said, let's listen to this. Putin made a bad mistake, in my opinion. What was his mistake? His mistake was going in. He would have never gone in if I was president. We used to talk about it here. You know, that he said he used to talk about invading Ukraine. She should have explicitly, and again, very easy to say, so you specifically talked to Putin about invading Ukraine? Let's hear more about that. Let's hear, and why didn't you tell anybody? Like, seems like that's your job. Like, again, slightly insulting him, but not quite, that kind of stuff, which is interesting. And that was another piece of news.

29:23There was news in here all over the place, right? That should have been brought out much more clearly. And that's why I'm looking at CNN, because they're a news organization. Yeah, I think the most damaging thing that's happened to Trump, all in all, I bet him and his team were happy about this. I thought the most damaging thing that's happened to him recently was the comments that former Attorney General William Barr said about him and said that if you believe in the principles that he was espousing and trying to affect, then he's totally ineffective. He's an agent of chaos. He's incapable of thinking laterally.

29:59He's incapable of thinking strategically. It just, it was very, to have his former attorney general say that's about someone he worked with, they'll run that ad. But look, I'm trying to find – look, I feel as if the chicken salad from the chicken shit here is I do believe our justice system is showing up and saying that a post-truth world does have downsides to the people who engage in this belief that they can say and do anything. And whether it's the defamation suit that he was found liable for, what just, you know, George Santos being arraigned, or even what's happening to some of these tech executives, I do think that the justice system is weighing in and saying, well, if social media and even the American public are down with people consistently lying, our law is not.

30:47I was hopeful about that. And I'm hopeful that Biden will beat him for a second time and they'll lose more Senate seats. Boy, third time's a charm in this one. He keeps losing them for him and they keep sticking with him. McConnell's got to be just like tearing off the legs on his Barbies and kicking his dog. He's just got to be going crazy to think, how do I? It's Barbies. How do I in any way, you know, how does this not turn out really poorly for us? Because if you look at the map, it does look like Biden wins. The map is actually quite ugly in terms of their race for Trump. Yeah, we'll see.

31:22I think let's just I want to finish up just talking about this. And I know you said we talked about the media, but this was CNM's attempt to put it. It's lost. It's lost numbers like crazy. It's lost money. Let me just say, let me clearly. There were opportunities here to make news that that Caitlin Collins missed. That said, she did a very solid job as a reporter, but the newsmaking is what they needed to do here in a way that was explicit, like so hard tied to him. That would have been seen as a success, I think. I suspect this is not going to be a success for them. I don't know. I don't think they're going to track any Fox people.

31:56They're going to go right to Newsmax or whatever. So what do you, from a CNN point of view, and not Caitlin Collins, because I think she was ill-served by her bosses in this format and everything else. What is your thoughts on David Zasloff and et cetera and that? How did they come off? I mean, at the end of the day, it's forgettable. CNN has bigger problems. specifically, CNN is in the midst of just this massive structural decline where people are no longer interested in watching cable television. They're no longer interested in watching ad-supported television. Let me be clear. I love CNN pitching life alert and reverse mortgages in the midst of 18 hours of news on days where there might be 18 minutes of news.

32:38It's just the model doesn't work. And the audience is aging and advertisers have more efficient ways of reaching people. And it's also very expensive to produce high quality content, 16 or 18 hours a day. The bottom line is the model doesn't work. And I'll reverse engineer this to the writer's strike. And everyone wants to say, let's David Zaslav and these big, ugly corporations. The reality is there's just fewer people watching this stuff, which means advertisers will pay less money, which means there isn't enough money to go around. Yeah, I still think they didn't do themselves any favor. It's like Elon with the Tesla stuff.

33:15Like, look, all the people who love Teslas and buy Teslas, he's kicking them in the teeth. I think CNN just kicked its audience in the teeth. How can they claim to be, you know, a news organization? I didn't say they shouldn't have him. I'm not saying that by any means. You're saying the way they handled it. They're a news organization. They needed to focus on news here rather than let him run an infomercial for himself. They did. They did. They did. The format, the people, everything else. Let me say, look, they were acting normal with an abnormal person, and you cannot do that. You just cannot.

33:46There are 50 ways. And I'm not bragging. I think Gail King could have done it, Savannah Guthrie. Chris Wallace most certainly would not have let them. He's just experienced, and he could. Well, Chris did get, the same exact thing happened to Chris, Kara. I mean. No, Chris got some really good. Chris was run over. No, I don't agree with you on that one. I think Jonathan Swan was quite a good interviewer of him. Several people were, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He had the upper hand here. Trump had the upper hand in this particular interview. They didn't handle it well. And by the way, let's get to the real point.

34:22This audience, you're an appalling group of people, and you should go home and think about how you think sexual abuse is funny. And I'm not saying that from a humorless lesbian point of view. If any of you have daughters or sisters, you should be ashamed of yourself that you think it's funny when someone touches a woman's genitals and laughs about it. Just fuck you. That's who I say is the biggest loser here. I don't think that's true. I think you're a lesbian with a good sense of humor. Okay. I would have walked right up to one of them and said, what are you laughing about? Tell me exactly. Do you have a sister?

34:57You're just sort of like, okay, is this really America putting its best foot forward? That they laugh, that sort of this fraternity laugh of saying these types of vile things about a woman, an American woman. I just, I thought, God, this makes us look terrible. A little shout out to Caitlin. Nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. It wasn't how you did. It was the fact that you were asked to do it. I don't want to say I feel bad for her, but I think she's, I don't know. Do you know her? I felt like she probably needed someone to be supportive. I think she needs some time by herself. That's what I would do if I were her.

35:39She's got the 9 o 'clock slot anyway. She'll be just fine. Anyway, let's move on. George Santos is out of jail on a$500 ,000 bond after pleading not guilty to 13 federal criminal charges, including seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, two counts of making material false statements to the House of Representatives, and one count of theft of public funds, which, by the way, Scott, was Preet Bharara's favorite count, as he told me last night. Yeah, it looks, you guys sent me that cute photo of you, Preet, and Jim Bancroft, and I'm like, this looks like a bad remake of Three's Company on Al Jazeera, like Al Jazeera 4.

36:17I mean, I was trying to come up with something snarky, like the 50-year reunion of the worst K-pop band in history. You are so jealous. We had such a good time. I know. I wasn't invited. I don't get invited to the fancy stuff. Anyway, so look, I think this is good. I've always thought at first it tickled my tribal censors because he's a Republican, and I just think it further cements that Republicans will literally hold no one to any account. But it's bad for America to have an individual like this who is not only not honest, but appears to be, I would almost argue, there's something wrong there.

36:59For somebody to be this much of a psychotic liar, it's bad for America to see him rolling around. I remember seeing him at the State of the Union address. He had an interaction with Mitt Romney, and I thought, it upsets me that America would in any way allow a guy like this to be in the presence of Senator Romney. I like Senator Romney. We'll see where it goes. Santos, go to jail. Trump, probably bounce back again. We'll see which one gets him in the end. He's got a lot. He's carrying a lot of karma around, Donald Trump is. Anyway, we'll go on a quick break. When we come back, the Biden administration aims for the sky, and we'll speak to a friend of Pivot, Dan Lyons, about shutting up.

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40:05Scott, we're back. The Biden administration wants to make airlines pay. The White House will soon propose new rules that could force airlines to pay cash when a flight is canceled or delayed. It can't be weather-related. Currently, airlines have to pay refunds, but there's no cash for being inconvenienced. Some airlines issue miles or vouchers, but that's up to them. These rules won't come down anytime soon. They take months and years to pass. Meanwhile, summer travel season is right around the corner. It could be a really difficult one, many experts say. The U.S. bailed out airlines with a ton of cash.

40:34Airlines received more than$50 billion in grants during the pandemic, for example. No other industry received more government aid. So this customer service issue that they have continues. It's not just inconveniencing of flights missed, but hotels, et cetera, et cetera. And that happens over and over again. Do you think they should be held liable? Look, as it goes to the airlines, I think it was ridiculous. The bailout of the airlines was a perfect example of CEOs who pay themselves$200 million or$150 over five years and have taken 97 % of their free cash flow up until the point of the pandemic to buy back stock, to artificially inflate the price of their stock and their options such that they could pay them a ton of money.

41:13And then they turn into Norwegian socialists, apologies to Norway, which in many ways is more capitalist than we are right now, and say, we're all in this together. And they go hat in hand. We should have not bailed out airlines. There have been 63 bankruptcies in airlines in like the last 20 years. Airlines are very good at going out of business. The planes continue to operate. Somebody else comes in with a new vision and fresh capital. And we should not. And this is the flip side. I also don't think we should be levying fines against them. I think we should be making sure there's more airlines such that the competition takes the bad ones out.

41:45I find that the whole airline industry is in its approach to the United States or approach to government or how they basically go hat in hand to governments is a perfect example of us bailing out the wrong people at the wrong time. Yep, that haven't innovated at all and should go out of business is your point. Do you know what takes longer? If you fly from New York to Dallas right now, it takes longer than it did in the 70s. I mean it's just the competition there's not the and again consumers are somewhat to blame because the consumers mostly say the majority of consumers say get me from point A to point B as cheaply as possible so every airline just it's just a race to the bottom to cut out as many costs as possible and the result is you know an industry that I would argue for the most part hasn't innovated although you know what I had my first AI innovation moment I went to LAX you know I'm on my US tour right now and I flew into LAX, and I go straight for the global entry kiosk, right?

42:48And my blood pressure goes up because I'm in, you know, whenever I'm in customs or that baggage area, I'm like, okay, is it going to be a seven-hour line or something? And I go, and before I even put my passport in the global entry machine, someone yelled, Galloway. And I'm like, oh, must be a fan, must be a fan. And it was the woman, TSA woman, saying, you're good, and waving me through. They have facial recognition now at TSA. I was totally blown away. And you know what? I'm here for it. Violate my privacy as long as I can get through customs faster. Interesting. Yeah, they're much more efficient.

43:22I would agree. It was absolutely efficient when I went through. Two places I've been subscribed where there's been upgrades is there and on Amtrak recently. I was like, service is better. I know because, again, I'm going to catch a train. I probably have to run for it today because you're so late. is the service improved rather dramatically. I was sort of like surprised. I don't know why, but I've been riding it a lot lately. But I agree. I agree that the government has upped the ante, at least in coming back into the country. And you'll see a lot more of that. I think they need to save money, right?

43:54I tried to sue Amtrak for losing my luggage, but I lost my case. I lost my case. All right, let's move on. We have to get to our friend of Pivot.

44:10Dan Lyons is a screenwriter, journalist, and author of this book. I think it was perfect for you, and I was thrilled that he and you would get to meet and talk about this topic. Welcome, Dan. How you doing? I haven't seen you in a while. It's been a long time. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to see you too. You've written your last book was about your job, which was hysterical, actually, that you had where you were too old for everyone else. But this one, Shut the Fuck Up, that's a provocative title. What was the problem you're trying to address in this book, and what made you write it?

44:39I took stock of myself and realized that sort of my ability to talk had helped me in a lot of ways, but it had also landed me in trouble. And in the early days of the pandemic lockdown, it was sort of taking stock of a couple of bad things and realized it all kind of boiled down to this compulsive talking, this impulse. And I discovered there's a thing called talkaholism. I took this test and found out I am one. And though I set out to figure out what causes it and how do you fix it. And so, but this interests you because you talk too much, that's correct? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm super annoying. And yeah.

45:15Yeah. Okay. And you wanted to stop being that way. Yeah. Yeah, I did. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And Scott, I wanted to have you in on this because I thought it was kind of an interesting question. We do learn to lean in, speak up, advocate for ourselves, talk a lot. Why should we shut up at all and what are the benefits of it? One is that you have more time to listen. And the biggest thing I probably learned in this whole journey was that it wasn't just about me talking less, it was about me listening more. And that when you do that, it turns out there's, A, you can avoid calamities. B, you can become a lot better at your job, a lot better at negotiation, for example.

45:54There's a lot of, you know, talk less, get more. But the really big thing was you improve the lives of the people around you. So for example, with my daughter, I had a sort of rocky relationship with her and learning how to shut up and just be with her and listen to her really transformed our relationship. And how so? Meaning that she didn't think you were listening to her? You were always leaning in too much to talk to her? I was always doing the thing where she says she's having a meltdown. She's 17 now. And so it was a couple of years ago. She's having a meltdown about school. And I jump in to sort of tell her, well, here's how to fix it.

46:26Sort of the classic thing. And I I realized that just sitting with her and not talking, first of all, it drove her nuts. Like, why are you doing that? But eventually she would open up and we'd realize that the problem wasn't really the paper that she had to do. It was much deeper things, fear of growing up and having to go off to college, things like that. It's nice to meet you. And I really, I think that's what you just said is really important and something dads don't come to is that a lot of times your kid comes to you not for you to be the disciplinarian or the father figure, but just to kind of list just like you said listen and just for lack of a better term just just just love them i was interested in what you said about being a talkaholic and that is some people will use other people's comments not to learn but as a prompt for them to start talking what did you find is the psychology of someone who's addicted to the sound of their own voice asking for a friend asking for a friend well i was going to say you know you guys you sort of make a living talking or that's what we would think.

47:26I would argue you make a living listening and that you're both amazing listeners. This is why you're such good interviewers. Like Kara, I've seen you a million times on stage interviewing somebody. You're masterful, but it's because you're eliciting something and then letting that person talk and holding back. What I found, Scott, though, is that it can be psychological. It actually can be related to things like ADHD or bipolar II that creates a compulsion. But there's another guy who did a lot of work. One of the original talkaholic scale guys went on and kept doing work and found that it has to do with your brain and the wiring in your brain without getting into detail.

48:04And you're sort of hardwired and you're stuck with it. Then all you can do is sort of deal with it. So my approach was, this is basically an addiction like alcoholism. And so an alcoholic can't become not an alcoholic, but you can develop the discipline to not drink. So that's what I set out to do. doesn't also just to follow up doesn't silence and this again isn't something i learned until later in life silence also connotes a certain amount of confidence i've always found a lot of times people feel the need to fill empty space like especially if you're on a first date or you're with your boss and i think it's a sign of confidence to be comfortable saying i don't feel the need to talk it's total i don't feel the need to to fill this void with my own with my own gibberish.

48:49I've always felt that the most confident people are comfortable with silence. Your thoughts? Totally. So the great example is Tim Cook at Apple. And I write a story in the book about him. He is the master, apparently, I've never met him, but the master of saying something and then sitting with that silence, which is - It's disturbing. And it's really uncomfortable. After about four seconds, your brain starts to freak out and want to fill the void. It's a power move. Totally. Plain and simple. It's a power move. And powerful people tend to talk less. Not all. Barack Obama, incredible listener, incredibly able to sit in silence and listen.

49:28Richard Branson, who is this great showman in meetings, mostly listens, takes notes. So yeah, it's a total power move. Silence is an incredible power move. In preparation for our interview, we ran some numbers of our episodes to see who talked more. Scott thinks I do. You do think that, right, Scott? Is that correct? That you speak more? Yeah. Are we being honest now? Mm-hmm. I think that I've thought about this a lot. I would bet I am two-thirds, if not 70-plus percent of the actual words. And your superpower and your discipline is that when we're talking about issues that you're an advocate for, because I am perceived as a moderate and you're more concerned with being effective than being right, you will let me run because you think I'll have more credibility on a liberal issue than you because I'm seen as the frat boy, Joey Bag of Donuts.

50:20So I find you're exceptionally disciplined to Dan. I don't like to compliment you, but I find you're exceptionally disciplined about listening. So I'm gonna guess I'm 70 plus percent. Sorry, Dan, we're taking this over. We're no longer in speaking to you. No, but it's true, it's interesting. You actually speak an average of 20 % more than me, just so you know, and that number - So that's 60, 40? just to do a little STEM? Because as the guy, I'm better at math. As the guy, as the dude, I'm better at math. We also average 3.4 blowjob jokes per episode, all from you. I've got to have my hobbies, Dan.

50:48Dan gets me. I'm curious, because I do this purposely. I do want Scott to talk more, although not all the time. But over-talking is sometimes thought as a gender problem, obviously. People are like, oh, Scott talks too much. I was like, no, it's actually planned that way. People say that to you? Yes, they do all the time. But I'm like, oh, no, it's my part of my evil plan of the whole entire show. But but you have a chapter on mansplaining, man interruptions, manalogues. Talk about that. Is it a gendered issue or just men are more comfortable talking? I know my well, my my daughter talks a lot, but my sons do talk more a lot.

51:23I mean, yeah, there's just countless, countless studies that find men talk more in a whole range of situations. And ironically, though, for a thousand years, there's been this stereotype that women are the ones who do all the talking. Women are the talkative ones who blabber, blah, blah, blah. And that men are the strong, silent type. But in fact, in situation after situation, men do way more of the talking and they do way more of the interrupting. And the people they interrupt are more likely to be women. And this applies at the Supreme Court. It applies in meetings at work. And one thing I tell people is the next time you're in a meeting at work, sit back with a little, you know, a notebook, count the interruptions, see who did them and who was interrupted.

52:15And once you see it, you can never unsee it. But did you, I don't know, I don't know the study referring to, but was it adjusted for seniority? Because what I found is I don't see the over-talking, more a function of gender as seniority. The people who get into positions of power are under the impression that they conflate leadership with dominating the conversation and commenting on everything. So was that adjusted for, because there's just more men in senior level positions because of a bias in the workplace forever. Did you adjust for seniority? Well, I didn't do the study, but I get that. There is this urge to say, I'm the leader.

52:52it's incumbent on me to fill the space to show you how smart I am and why I'm the leader. 100%. And to your point that the real leader is the one who's confident enough to sit back and be quiet. But no, here's some examples. Supreme Court justices. A study of who got interrupted the most was female justices, almost always by men who are making their pitch to the court. So there's a power imbalance where it didn't matter that you're trying to win over a Supreme Court justice. There are other ones where at academic conferences where apparently, you know, presumably everybody's equal, everybody are peers.

53:28Men just do way more of the talking. So I agree with you. It can be a power dynamic, but it seems to apply even in levels where men and women are. Yeah, any woman could tell you this. Just so you know. Right, right. Look, Kara, this is not news to Kara Swisher. No, this is not news. No, no. And there's a study. There was a woman in tech, Kara. There's a woman in tech who said, who did this thing. And then she said, I found all these numbers. And then I, she's now at Microsoft, I think. And then I went and she said, every woman friend I talked to, the only response they said was, duh. Like, they like, yeah, we all know this.

54:04My wife, my wife, well, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Please interrupt me. I went to a, yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. So I'm going to shut up. No, go ahead. No, your wife. I like hearing the word your wife. She's an academic. And we went to a conference once in the University of Michigan. and she read a paper. It was one of these rooms, a colloquium. And this guy just went after her in this like vicious way. Nobody knew that I was her husband. I was sitting in the peanut gallery, but I'm watching it and I'm watching her and she's very introverted and she started shaking and she got all upset.

54:33And it was awful. It was really awful to watch. It was painful. And then afterwards, as it broke up, I went out and he's in the hallway hitting on her and saying, hey, what are you doing for dinner tonight? And I walked up and she said, well, this is my husband. And he sort of slunk away. And I said to her, oh my God, Sasha, that was just awful. That was so terrible. And she said, dude, don't you know, this happens to women all the time. Like this is my life. During the Ellen Powell case, a lot of men, a lot of women came up to me and said, of course, like, yeah, it's happened to me. Everyone had a story from the very top echelons to every level.

55:11And all the men were like, all the good men, I would say good men, these were not men that did this, were like, I am shocked. Like, it was sort of like, how could you be shocked? It's a very, it's a very famous, you know, trope. Rebecca Solnit had the book, Men Explain Things to Me, where she was, had a man, which was a great book. She, read it if you like to laugh a lot. But in one case, she had written something and a man explained her story to her. Like, and she's like, no, no, that's not what I meant. I'm the author. And he's like, no, what you meant was this. And so that's where it came from.

55:44Let me ask you, what makes listening so difficult? Why is that? Is it just not a trained thing? Or what happens where people don't learn to listen? Yeah, we're not taught ever to listen, right? Ever. We live in a culture that actually values and promotes the opposite, the ability to speak, to give presentations. One thing I like to point out - Free speech! Sorry, I just had to. I was just listening to Tucker Carlson, Oh, so for example, when you're a little kid, you're in kindergarten, you know, and you have show and tell. And you teach kids to come in and hold something up and say, this is my thing and this is what it is and give a little presentation.

56:21So from the time you're five or six years old, we're teaching you how to be comfortable getting up. But you know what we don't do? We don't then say to the class, okay, what did you just hear? What did they say? What do you remember? We don't teach people to listen and retain. There are other studies that show that it's actually sort of biologically hard to listen, that our brains, for example, are hardwired to process, I think, 800 words a minute, but people only speak 125. So you're sitting there and that person is talking, but your brain has all these unused cycles that's going like, let me find something to do.

56:56And they start thinking about next weekend, what they're going to do or email, or they start thinking, like Scott said, what am I going to say as soon as this person stops talking? Right. That's what it is. Does remote work impact the more on Zoom, for example? Because it makes it more difficult. Like, no, you go ahead. No, you go. It's a very different speaking environment. I think remote work makes it easier. It helped me. It was a great place to practice, especially on a group call, because it's actually very easy to hit mute and to sit back. And you have the thing where you can put your hand up.

57:28So if you do want to interrupt, you sort of put your hand up and then you wait your turn. But you still have you still have crosstalk in Zoom calls. And it's just like in a physical meeting. Watch who does most of the talking and most of the interrupting. But I think it was a great place for me to practice. I love, Dan, what you said about how it's impacted positively the relationship with your daughter. Can you think of any other instances, either with your wife or with friends, where your kind of newfound skill set around listening has impacted the relationship? Yeah. I mean, sort of the through line of the book is my marriage.

58:04And just before the pandemic lockdown, my wife and I separated. It was very painful. And I was living away from her and the kids, you know, pretty close, but in this rented house. And I really did not want to get divorced. I really, really wanted to put things back together. And this is part of me taking stock of, you know, God, I often say stuff that's, you know, I don't need to say. And I started working on it in the way we would communicate. And I came up with this idea that I describe in the book as non-talk therapy, because we had tried a lot of talk therapy. And I have this sequence of, you know, we went to this guy and he said this, this guy said this, this guy said this.

58:43And we finally got to this woman who said, you know what, just break up. Like, just give up. Like, I know I'm a marriage counselor, give up. And we started spending time as I was writing this book and discovering all this stuff and doing this research, I thought, you know, maybe we should spend time together and not say much, or at least I should not say much. And there's research that shows couples who spend time together in silence deepen their bond. So we would take the dog out into the woods to swim and just kind of sit. And I would make rules to myself before we had, I would take her out to dinner and say, before we go in, I would tell myself, I'm not going to say anything except reflect back what she says and ask questions.

59:22and it really began to work. We really sort of began to click again. And we did get back together. We're back together now. And I give it a lot of credit. And here's the interesting thing. When you listen and let people talk, they shine. They actually become more interesting. I interviewed a professor about this and I said, you know, I did this with a couple of people, not my wife. And this person became so fascinating. Like, I swear, I don't think maybe it was my perception. She said, no, people become more interesting when they're listened to. So my wife just dazzled and just, you know, really just was fantastic.

1:00:06When I just I was paying attention. I was listening actively. That's the other thing. You know, I had a friend who said the exact same thing. She was married. They separated. She was very sad. And she was like, oh, I guess I start dating again. And I saw her recently and they are back together. And I said, what happened? He said, he started listening to me. I mean, Scott, that probably makes sense to you too, right? I'm just really, Dan, to be blunt, I'm moved. I think it's really wonderful and important when impressive men such as yourself speak openly and in a vulnerable manner about the relationship with their daughters and their wives.

1:00:37We just, as men, usually don't feel comfortable talking about those things. So I'm just impressed and want to commend you for the confidence you reflect. How do you help your kids as a parent? How do you train your, I'm raising two boys and I love the power of silence. I think there's a real power to it, both in terms of exhibiting confidence, being a good partner, being a good friend. And also, quite frankly, I think you're more attractive as a potential mate when you have the confidence to be silent. Any thoughts around helping younger people? Until my 40s, I thought it was my job as a leader to fill every empty space and that the way I would impress people is to show them how smart I am and just not shut the fuck up, as you put it.

1:01:27How do you teach kids and young managers to do this other than just saying, listen more? Maybe you lead by example. I have twins. They're 17 now, a boy and a girl. So I write more about my daughter in the book. But with my son, my son is very introverted. He keeps a lot close. There's a lot going on, but he's not saying much. And I've learned if I just sort of, you know, ride with him in the car, cars are a great place to do this, by the way, because first of all, they can't run away. And secondly, you know, you're sitting next to each other, but you're not looking at each other. And you can sit in the car and sort of maybe say nothing for a while or say something open ended.

1:02:07in if I, again, like with my, my son is very much like my wife. If I shut up long enough, he will start to talk and he will take me on this journey and I will find out what it is that he wants to talk about. Um, but I really have to hold back. So yeah, I think it's being intentional and it's also being active. It's not, well, there's the silent treatment silence. My wife And I used to do a hell of a lot of that. But there's the open and active silence, but where you're engaged. And it's intentional. The biggest thing about listening is that it just has to be intentional. And you have to keep telling yourself before every conversation to remember to listen.

1:02:53We're in a world of really, you know, we joke about Elon Musk, but he never shuts up. There's never a thought that doesn't come out of his mouth that's usually ignorant. But same thing with Trump or social media, Marjorie Taylor Greene. There's a volume of free speech that should not be spoken. Like, you know what I mean? Whether they can do it or not, certainly. But it seems like everybody is. There's a noise level that's so high right now. Yeah, I think the world is way too noisy, which is why the second half of the title is, you know, the power of keeping your mouth shut in an endlessly noisy world.

1:03:26And it just keeps getting worse. And I think that information overload is doing bad things to our brains. And one thing it is doing is encouraging us to sort of get in there and be even louder. So I think those people are terrible role models for the rest of us. Yeah, I would think so. Anyway, the book is Shut the F Up, The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World. Dan is a wonderful writer. It's a wonderful book, Dan, I read. I read everything you write because you're such a good writer. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And you moved Scott. And now he's silent. You've rendered him silent.

1:03:58it's my power move bitches it's my power move anyway thank you dan thank you guys okay bye thank you i thought you'd like him scott i knew you would i do like him he's a great guy he's a wonderful writer but also uh it's a great topic and it was i i was very surprised that he he got so personal in this book it was really um it was really important and he's right he did talk too much i i know it sounds crazy he's a very funny talker that's why he talked so much because he got a lot of attention for talking a lot. So it's great. Anyway, we'll be back for predictions.

1:04:35Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:05:04No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:05:39Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:06:07No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:06:47Okay, Scott, I'll let you have a prediction since I was so right this week. And let me just say again, I'm right again. I love how you wade into Twitter to correct people that it wasn't a joint prediction. It wasn't Scott. It was me. It was me. Well, I never get credit for my, it was a very good, it was point on. I never get it. They always are like, oh, that was Scott. Even my wife was like, was it Kara or Scott? I literally was like, I wrote, called her. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like for the once I get it right. and you think it's Scott. I think it's common sense to think, oh, it must have been the man.

1:07:20It must have been the man. But seriously, my wife thought it might be you. Just FYI. That's what set me off. That's what set me off. Anyways, my prediction, I was at Expedia yesterday. By the way, if you ever go to work for a company, go to work for a Barry Diller company, he is a fan of building the most beautiful offices in the world. This is one of the most extraordinary campuses I've ever been on. Anyway, and somebody asked in Q &A, what sector will register the greatest impact from AI? And I've been thinking a lot about disruption and where AI is going to go, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

1:08:01And if you look back and you think about, you know, people say, well, Google was the technology that changed the world. Disruption is, in my view, as much or more of a function than the actual disruptive technology, than how ripe an incumbent industry is to be disrupted. And that is, if you look at the advertising industrial complex, every year it raised its prices to reach fewer viewers. It just stuck its chin out. If you look at cable television and how Netflix interrupted it every year, they just raised fees because of these regulated monopolies. When you woke up and you're like, okay, I'm paying$200 a month for food channels, you know, food network three, four, and five.

1:08:39And so if you were to look at this, what is the most disruptable industry as a means of saying that's the tail that's going to wag the dog around where AI is going to make the most inroads, my prediction is that 2024 is going to be the year of AI-driven healthcare startups, because I don't think there's any industry that is more ripe to be disrupted than the industry that's grown faster than inflation. And again, we talked about this last week, only one in five consumers are happy with. So I think where we're going to see, just as we, at the beginning, it seems obvious now, but it's not entirely obvious that Google would have disrupted the advertising industry.

1:09:16That's, I think a lot of people wouldn't have said, well, that's the industry that's going to get hurt the most. Yeah. Have you started, helped my brother start his company yet? I haven't spoken to Jeffrey, but I will, I'm sure I'll see him. You should, you should. Next time we all get together, it's always a Swisher family reunion. I'm sure I'm going to see him soon. Yes, it's true. But you should, that was a good idea. I think he liked it. Your idea was an excellent idea. Yeah, I care. I used to do this for a living. I know. So I'm not insulting you, sir. You have to listen to what I'm saying.

1:09:42To talk. I used to get paid to talk to old white guys. I basically have made a living renting my brain to old white guys. That is correct. Anyways, but you're going to see, I think the space, just as Google disrupted advertising, just as Netflix disrupted cable, I think you're going to see AI's first kind of really fertile ground or real chaos that's going to start in terms of a reshuffling of stakeholder value is going to be in healthcare. And that's everything from helping you find or diagnose stuff, develop treatment plans. I mean, if you think about virologists or pathologists and what AI could do or radiologists, I mean, you're going to see massive disruption.

1:10:28And I think consumers are going to start leaning on different generative AI models. And they're going to start developing the interface and the trust. I think it's going to be fascinating. It's also a question everyone's asking. Again, the student part I was at was everyone was only about AI. It's really interesting. Everyone can feel something's happening and not crypto. Crypto is more like, how can I make money? This is what's going to change. Anyway, we'll see. That's an excellent prediction, Scott. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

1:10:55Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Scott, that is the show. Another action-packed show, as usual, where we have a little tension and just a tiny bit of love. It's a healthy tension. It's a healthy tension. Just a tiny bit of love. Anyway, I commit myself to not listening to you more every week. Anyway. 60-40. 60-40. Let's try to get it 50-50. I don't care. I don't mind you talk more. I really don't. It's planned on my part, most of it. No, I know it is. I think it's very deliberate. Anyway, we'll be back next week for more. Scott, please read us out.

1:11:33Today's show is produced by Lara Nehman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertot, engineer this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Pro tip to increase the intimacy of your relationships, just shut the fuck up. Listen.

1:12:02Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough. and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload.

1:12:30No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. and the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

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