Washington Post Drama, OpenAI IPO Rumblings, and Guest Scott Wiener

22:25And they will use intimidation and have, you know, weaponized their own media companies. And this is an example of that, that they're like, it's not that they're, my understanding is it's not that they're mad at them for censoring. It's that they're not crafting the narrative that they want to blanket over the nation. And what's also disappointing, I understand Stanford's decision that this is just more headache than it's worth. But at the same time, Stanford has so much money. It's such a Stanford, and I'm critical of higher ed, but Stanford is just such a gift to California and to technology and to research that I just, it's weird what the faculty and students get riled up about.

23:10And they don't get riled up about being intimidated by a bunch of right-wing lawsuits and basically putting this thing out of business. So I think it's disappointing and more example of the way you, the steps to fascism are you get control of the media, you get control of the economy, then you get control of the military and boom, it's all over. And this feels to me like an attempt. And there's some people on the left to try and do this as well, but not as much. This is a plan. You know, the left does it in a very non-systematic way. This is a systematic way around trans rights, everything. They have a plan around with abortion, you know, and there's this whole effort to try to get rid of New York Times versus Sullivan, the idea around libel.

23:50And Trump has talked about this idea about prosecuting and going after media. Bannon has basically said, we're going to kill them. That's what it feels like. You know, we're going to get them or get them, get them, get them is their constant refrain. It's part of their plan. And so the question is, is there anything to fight back when they're doing constant lawsuits, right? This is the problem. And so I don't know if there's anything that you can do with if you've decided this is a thing you want to kick out. This is a part of democracy you want to kick out so you can get control. The kickers are always in a better situation than those trying to stop the kicking.

24:23Yeah, it's disappointing because I don't know Alex as well as you, but he's always Starkman is a very thoughtful guy who calls balls and strikes. He's also strikes me as fearless. He just says, I've seen him speak at conferences and I like him because you're not, he doesn't sign up to a political narrative. He just says, this is what the data reflects. And he also, at the last conference I saw, said, you know, there's a lot of misinformation coming from the left. And I like guys like that who call balls and strikes, but he's exactly the kind of person you want heading, you know, a laboratory like this.

24:53This is exactly the kind of laboratory that should be sponsored and hosted at an academic institution. And Stanford is exactly the place, the region that should be hosting it. It's just this feels so right on so many levels, and yet they're being kind of bullied by what feels, at least on the surface, to be right-wing organizations that aren't interested in pursuing the truth. They're interested in crafting a narrative to their own objectives. Look, this just feels wrong. It just feels bad. And twisting the numbers, right? Yeah. So I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know. It's very dangerous for the 2024 election and future elections not there to be academic research.

25:32Whether or not you agree with it is no difference. It's that if they can do their studies and they can back it up, you have to accept what it's doing. What they do is they take information, like saying that Renee herself got 22 million pieces, you know, censored. censored when, in fact, she just recommended 2 ,000 misinformation things and only like 15 % of them got taken down. And so they spin it into this idea of this person behind the scenes manipulating when, in fact, speaking of Chrissy Teigen, it was Trump who asked to take down her pussy ass bitch tweet, not someone else, right? They do it too.

26:10They do it too in terms of trying to take stuff down. And so what they do is they weaponize the First Amendment in a way that's just really heinous because they don't want, because of their own political narratives. Anyway, it's a really, it's a shame. And Stanford should fucking pay for this thing, I think. They're not very, they're not very brave as people. Anyway. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, OpenAI announces its latest board member and hands it some big changes. And we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, California State Senator Scott Wiener, about his AI regulation bill that's causing a ruckus in Silicon Valley.

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27:26However you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way at newbalance.com slash running. There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why, in 2025, are late-night TV shows, like Jimmy Kimmel's show, still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks. If you start taking the biggest faces off your networks, you might save some nickels and dimes.

28:15But what are you even anymore? What even is your brand anymore? I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And that was James Ponowozik, the TV critic for The New York Times. This week, we're talking about Trump and Kimmel, free speech, and a TV format that's remained surprisingly durable for now. That's This Week on Channels, wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

28:44Scott, we're back. OpenAI appears to be addressing recent security concerns with the new addition to its board of directors. The company announced last week that retired General Paul Nakasone will be joining the board. He's also sit on a newly formed safety and security committee. Nakasone was director of the NSA, which is causing a lot of like the crazy right to go crazy about this and saying it's a deep state. and led, including Elon, I think, and led the U.S. military's cyber command before stepping down early this year. He's very well regarded. But again, this is a big appointment. OpenAI said in a statement that this appointment underscores a growing significance of cybersecurity.

29:23Edward Snowden wasn't happy. He posted this on social media saying, do not ever trust OpenAI or its products. There is only one reason for appointing an NSA director to your board. So, as usual, without proof, Edward. But, you know, okay, sure, a spy is spy. So, but it's one of those open-ended questions that never really has an answer or any proof attached to it. But that's okay. They can do that. So, it's a thing. What do you think about that? I absolutely love it. Anyone who's an army general and works their way up as someone, you know, General Nakasone is, you know, this isn't a very impressive person.

29:58And also, this person has proven themselves a patriot. And for all these weirdos on the far right that think there's a deep state, and for all these weirdos on the far left that are under the assumption that the peace is a natural right, that it's not something that requires constant vigilance and sacrifice, we need – the NSA does an amazing job keeping Americans safe. And it's important that we have laws that keep them in check. But at the same time, I worry that America has become so naive to this notion that peace is a right. It is not. It is earned and it is not the natural order. As soon as people can come for our Netflix and Nespresso folks, they will.

30:39And they won't do it by interesting, nice means. They'll be violent about it just as we need to be violent and smart about protecting our borders. So to have someone like this on the board of OpenAI to occasionally raise his or her hand and say, you know what, that is a threat to America. And I'm not down with this. I love having this guy on the board of OpenAI. I think it's a wonderful thing. It's interesting because it sort of sets up these deep state, leave us alone, don't tread on me, gang. And I mean that in the negative don't tread on me way, the sort of demented don't tread on me. In Edward Snowden's case, I recognize that he did uncover some really heinous behavior by our security officials.

31:18That said, there's plenty of argument to be made that how he handled it was wrong, but he couldn't have handled it. Look, we can debate Edward Snowden all you want. I interviewed him once. It's a very complex topic. But the fact, assuming every NSA chief has malintent is the way to bring down all institutions. Now, they've been abusive enough that there needs to be strong laws and oversight in place. Absolutely. If a spy is going to spy, that is just the way it goes, right? There's no other way to put it, including the Chinese government. They're going to spy whether you have proof or not. That's what they do.

31:55In this case, as many people on the board—now, I would also put on someone who's more of a, like, sort of an opposite to him could be interesting. So you have all the different outlooks brought there. And I'm not talking – the problem they had was they had people that were so at cross purposes, there was no agreement. And I think if they bring in someone who's more – not distrustful of government, but then challenges government overreach, I think that's fantastic too, right? That's what you kind of want on a board. But this guy has really a very, very strong reputation. The immediate attacks on him were fascinating to watch in a lot of ways.

32:32Speaking of OpenAI, they're further angering all the peer crowd. CEO Sam Altman has told some shareholders that the company is considering changing its governance to a for-profit business that a nonprofit board doesn't control, according to the information. I'm shocked. I'm shocked. What? I'm shocked. They are a profit company. One option for forming a for-profit benefit corporation similar to what Anthropic and XAI have in place. You can explain what a for-profit. I don't understand it. Altman said that restructuring conversations are fluid and that he and his fellow directors can end up taking a different approach.

33:05Oh, come on, Sam. Come on. You can't stand that nonprofit situation. So OpenAI reportedly is on pace, by the way, for a$3.4 billion of annual revenue. Well done. If OpenAI did become a for-profit company, what's your prediction for an IPO? They just hired a very well-regarded person, Sarah Fryer, who was a former CEO of Nextdoor. and as his chief financial officer, she used to work for Square. She's terrific. She dealt with IPOs at Nextdoor as well as Square, as I've said. What is that called now? I forget the new name. I call it Square still. But what do you think about this? Talk about this a little bit.

33:42So all of the stuff about the drama at the board and it going back and forth and Sam being fired and then rehired, it's a bit of noise because now OpenAI, in the last six months, they've doubled their revenue base. They're kind of running away with it. And if you look at their run rate right now relative to their valuation, they're actually the most reasonably valued company in AI, despite the fact that they're the leader. They are clearly, clearly putting on their best dress for an IPO because the individual that you reference is an incredibly street. It's like when Google brought in Ruth Peratt and she wasn't there to take them public.

34:22But this is a very street-friendly hire. So they're clearly getting ready for an IPO. And all of the kind of noise around OpenAI, I saw these numbers on how they're doing. They are running away with it. OpenAI right now, their revenue rate, they're like 20 % of all AI revenues. is. You know what they have, Scott? They've decided to be Google and not Netscape. That's what it is. Netscape had it and then lost it. Google almost lost it and then had it, right? They really pushed aggressively. It's also expanding into healthcare with a cancer co-pilot. It's working with Color Health to develop an AI assistant using OpenAI.

35:05They're doing deals all over the frigging map. They're like running circles around the competitors, But go ahead. No, you're exactly right. We have a tendency to focus on the soap opera end of this. But despite all of this distraction, they are growing their revenues faster. Mistral, this company in France, which I think will do well because I think a lot of European companies and regulators would like an AI company in Europe to emerge. But if you look at just sheer revenue growth and size of revenues, it's really right now. It's Indidia and OpenAI. It's OpenAI and the seven doors and AI, and then in infrastructure, it's NVIDIA and just, okay, who are the rest?

35:47I mean, you could argue that Dell and Oracle have done a good job of positioning themselves in the sunlight here. But when I saw these numbers from OpenAI, I'm like, oh, my gosh, kudos to them for being able to walk and chew gum at the same time because there's been a lot of distraction there. but the revenue, the next thing that we're going to be talking a lot about that people aren't spending a lot of time talking about is just the sheer amount of energy consumption that's going to come from AI. Guess who has a hydrogen fusion, whatever, Sam Altman. It's all right. He's into little small nuclear devices, just so you know.

36:22He's got an answer for everything. And it takes 10 to 17 times the amount of energy to do a query on chat GBT versus a general search. No, I know. That's why. That's going to be the next. But that's what he's working on. That's another Sam Altman investment is energy. Like a lot of, and to sell it to these companies to do that. He's way ahead. He's making the pickaxes in the gold rush is what's happening. Anyway. There you go. It's not stupid. Not stupid. Anyway, we've got a lot more to discuss on the AI front. So let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

36:57it. Scott Weiner is a California state senator. He introduced an AI regulation bill earlier this year that aims to establish common sense safety standards for AI companies in California. The bill passed through the state senate last month and is now making its way through the state assembly, but it's facing a lot of pushback from AI companies, venture capitalists, and tech trade associations. Welcome, Scott. Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Good to see you. So it just came out a little while ago, several amendments are getting proposed or added to this AI bill. Not a surprising thing. That's what happens.

37:30Talk a little bit about the bill and explain the potential impact of these changes. Let me just say the original bill includes requiring companies to prevent models from causing critical harm, a little unspecific, ensuring systems can be shut down, which that's the one that really seems to drive them crazy, and reporting on safety tests, which seems reasonable enough. So talk a little bit about that bill and the changes. Great. Yeah. So the bill was actually got some bipartisan support in the Senate. It got a really strong vote. The basic gist of it is that if you're going to train and release a huge model, we define it as larger than 10 to the 26th flop costing more than$100 million to train, just do some basic safety evaluation and identify if there are potential catastrophic harms.

38:21And then if you identify catastrophic risks, then take basic steps to try to reduce those risks. Not eliminate them. It's life. You can't reduce risk to zero. But at least reasonable steps to mitigate the risks. The large labs all say that they're doing this or wanting to do this. They keep committing to doing it in Seoul, in the White House, before Congress. And so we are putting it into a law. It does not require government permission or licensing before you train or release a model. It's not government micromanagement in any way. It's simply saying, let's do a safety evaluation. The amendments that are being proposed by the Assembly Privacy Committee, which we'll hear the bill this week, are pretty reasonable.

39:16They create more flexibility in terms of the size threshold. We've gotten a lot of feedback from industry and from experts that having a permanent 10 to the 26 flop threshold is not flexible enough. So we provide some more flexibility over time. We require third party safety audits starting in 2028. And the whistleblower protections will be strengthened. strengthened. We've always had whistleblower protections in the bill from the very beginning, but they're going to be refined and strengthened. And then the insuring systems can be shut down. Pretty much every techie is like, that's not, that's ridiculous.

40:02That's a ridiculous, it's not even possible. Yeah. So, in the bill, it's always been this way, but we've made it more clear recently that the requirement for a shutdown provision or a shutdown aspect to the model is only if the model is in your possession. Once it leaves your possession, you're no longer responsible for ensuring it can be shut down. Because that's the feedback that we were getting that once I release it, someone else has it, I can't ensure that. So that was always our intent. And we made that clear. We also put an amendment in recently that if someone does significant fine tuning, then to the building, that becomes their model and not the original developers model.

40:49But the pushback is massive for tech people. They're calling you an idiot, essentially, Scott. You know that. I have been called far worse than that. First of all, we have a big coalition behind this bill, including a lot of AI technologists. We have folks who have started companies. And so it's not, this isn't just me. Like I woke up one morning and dreamt this. So we think it's quite feasible. And in fact, they're all saying that they're doing it or wanting to do it. And that's one of the odd things about this. All we're saying is do what you say you want to do or what you say you are doing and just certify that you've done it.

41:33And it's doable. And it's not government overreach. I think one of the pushbacks is similar to GDPR is that only the big companies will be able to serve you in what you're doing in the smaller countries. I know you have that size limit, the size has to get to a certain size, but that's one of the worries, obviously. Yeah, and this is much, much narrower than what the EU has done. Dramatically narrower, it's a safety evaluation, and it only applies to these huge models that effectively exempts out startups. So there's been a narrative that this is going to be some sort of regulatory capture. I think that's just completely untrue.

42:16Okay, Scott, the other Scott. Nice to meet you, Scott. Hi, other Scott. I realize that I'm going to be preaching to the choir here, but you want to put a car, you want to sell a car to the general public. You have to put it through crash test safety standards. What on earth are the arguments here other than saying, well, Sam Altman knows better than a regulator because he speaks in hushed tones? What are the arguments for not slowing down or at least having some kind of crash test safety dummies here to make sure we're not putting a Ford Pinto times a billion or a, you know, what was it, the Corvair unsafe at any speed?

42:55What is the pushback that these people can regulate themselves? What are the best arguments? Play the other side. Be Robert McNamara and empathize with the enemy. What are the best arguments that the other side is putting out? Sure. And I do empathize a lot of these are a lot of people who I know really, really well. Being the I represent San Francisco, I'm part of the area right to the south of the city. And and so I am surrounded by the world every day. And so I that's why I will just be clear that we have been intensively meeting with opposition, with folks who are open to supporting of skepticism.

43:34We've made a series of amendments in response to constructive feedback. But the lines of argument are, one is just trust us. We'll do it on our own. You don't need to tell us to do it. And as I made clear, even if you trust all the CEOs and the C-suite folks today, even if you completely trust everyone, you don't know who's going to be running these companies tomorrow or in a year and what pressures they're going to be facing. The other is an argument that I just don't think is accurate, respectfully. They will say, well, this is like regulating or requiring a safety evaluation for the printing press.

44:20It's not about the printing press. It's about what people use it for because they'll say regulate the application, not the model. Of course, both are very important. And, you know, I carry you. I'm not trying to brown those or anything. But in your book, you talked about that, that when you build a ship, there is going to be a risk of catastrophic harm, crash, etc. And yes, that can be because of a malicious actor or negligent operation. It could also be because of an inherent flaw or problem in the design. Or it could be that the design makes it too easy for someone to maliciously or negligently crash it.

45:05And so we would never say, as you noted, Scott, just focus on the pilot. Regulate the pilot of the plane. Don't regulate the plane itself. You regulate both, and you make sure that both are safe, and you minimize, and you reduce risk. You're not going to eliminate risk. You reduce it. Well, they just don't like regulation at all. They don't like any regulation. They're not used to it because we never have regulated them. So in a real, in a substantive way, they would argue they have. They are not allowed to murder people yet. Although I would argue some of them do in some different ways. But what's the timeline looking for a passage?

45:38And are you concerned that this bill becomes law? Some AI companies will leave California. That's always their threat. They're always on their way out the door. Silicon Valley's in a rupture. I don't think Silicon Valley is one thing. But their tendency is toward non-regulation in just a second. And even someone who I find relatively reasonable, Meta's chief AI scientist, Jan LeCun, who is reasonable, has posted that regulating basic technology would put an end to innovation, which is rather dramatic from him. So what are you worried about? Because, look, AI is now reinvigorating San Francisco, who you represent.

46:12It really is. You can see the difference and the excitement, and the companies are locating there. OpenAI is creating concentric circles of companies, et cetera. All the AI people are staying in San Francisco. So are you, and Silicon Valley, how do you look at this, this concern that they're going to leave? They're going to Texas or Florida or wherever. Yeah, and to be clear, first of all, I'm a fan of AI. I think it has so much potential for good. And I love that San Francisco is the beating heart of AI innovation. And I've been a supporter of fostering and having a strong tech presence in San Francisco.

46:50So I there have been some really melodramatic statements, including from Jan. And I have a lot of respect for him. But I think some of his statements and others that made by some other folks have been really extreme and over the top and sometimes have not even accurately described what the bill does. I do not think that this is going to somehow there's there's always this statement that we're going to push people out. Even when Elon Musk said he was moving Tesla out, he didn't really move it out. He was expanding Tesla in California. So I don't think that's going to— He's a different character.

47:28Yeah. He is a drama queen, but go ahead. Yes, he is. But I don't see that happening. In addition to the fact that what triggers this bill is not being headquartered in California. It's doing business here. And so the idea that they're not going to even do business in California is sort of laughable. So I don't think that that is a real risk, to be honest. So I would imagine one of the arguments put forward is that China and Russia aren't going to have this type of regulation. And as a result, they're going to be able to go faster and their AI weaponized warriors will come for our children. Is that an argument?

48:07And how would you respond to that? I mean, there is this argument that we have to have bigger and more powerful and more dangerous and more whatever AI models in order to compete with their deadly models. I don't, to me, that's not, that's probably not the direction we should be going. And just to be clear, we are not, this bill does not ban anything. it does not they can they can build these powerful models they can they can deploy these powerful models it does not limit them in any way it just says do a basic safety test test the kind of test that you say that you are already doing and if it identifies like you know a real risk that it might shut down the grid for six months maybe maybe puts just take some step to at least reduce reduce that risk.

49:02I don't think that that is unfair. And I don't think the competition with China is an excuse to say anything goes. They do use, yeah, they do. Scott's correct. They use that. The Xi or me argument is like perhaps for years and years. I mean, the idea of, you know, I always say this, I'm like, you have the ship, the ship cracks. What's wrong with the lighthouse? They don't want a lighthouse. They really don't. I feel like I'd love to know what legislation they would want to make. And but actually, you know, it goes to a bigger problem, Scott, is why are you doing this, right? Why is the state of California, not you, what the hell are you doing with your life, Scott, but other Scott?

49:34That's a bigger question. Yeah, but, you know, why is the federal government moving into this? Like, that's really the issue is I know Biden put out the executive order, which has some of these elements in it, by the way, a lot of them include, you know, but any kind of restriction seems should come from the federal government. We have a we have a consistently across all 50 states and a decision making that isn't done by California legislators as much as you might be the epicenter of it. Oh, I agree with you a thousand percent. It would be better for the federal government to do this. And let's wait and see if the federal government actually ever does it, especially since Steve Scalise, House Republican majority leader, said last week that nothing of significance was going to happen.

50:24Let's remember that Congress has never passed a data privacy law after all these years. Congress has done nothing on social media. Congress has never enacted. Well, they're trying to do labeling today. But anyway, go ahead. Well, Congress has never enacted a net neutrality law. I authored California's net neutrality law in 2018, thinking maybe I would be preempted at some point in the next few years. It never happened. And so other than banning TikTok, the last major piece, the last major federal tech law that was passed was in the 90s. And so I don't have a lot of confidence. I hope I'm wrong.

51:01And if they pass some comprehensive, fantastic federal regulation and maybe preempt our law, that could be a really good result. But they're not doing that right now. Supposedly, you're going to run for the Pelosi seat when she leaves it. I understand. Is that correct? Well, we have a fantastic member of Congress. And yeah, whenever she decides, makes her own decision, then I'll definitely, you know, I love representing San Francisco. I want to bring you, I'm not putting you on the spot, but I just did. So you live there and you represent the city. You were my representative in the Castro, for people that know, in the city government.

51:42You represent the city as state senator. There's been this negative narrative about San Francisco for a while. And I don't think you've pretended it wasn't the troubles were not happening. It's been called a failed city, a dystopian hellscape. I have to say it's quite vibrant. AI is part of it, AI companies. And it seems like it's on a comeback loop. There's a very exciting mayor's race. It's very competitive and very different visions of San Francisco. Many of them would be considered conservative. Well, it wouldn't be that conservative. But what is your message now for San Francisco's critics?

52:15I think that sort of hellscape narrative is sort of moving to a new place because everything's getting better. And things are getting fixed. Slowly, very difficult to be a city post-COVID. But what is your message for San Francisco's critics, who are all back, by the way? Yeah. And, you know, there's a national pastime of predicting San Francisco's demise and writing our obituary. People have been doing it for, I don't know, probably 100 years. And this is a city that burned down an earthquake. Our mayor was assassinated along with Harvey Milk. We were probably the hardest hit from HIV. And everyone over and over again said San Francisco was over.

52:58And then we came back. And so, yeah, we've been going through some tough times, particularly with our downtown, because of the lack of full return to work. Our neighborhoods are thriving. The neighborhoods are so vibrant. We have amazing, massive outdoor events. Everyone wants to be outside with their friends, with their community. we are seeing with not just with AI, but with biotech, with healthcare, with a number of different industries, a real surge. And even in the shopping center, that was the store closure heard around the world where Nordstrom closed. There are people who are leasing spaces in that shopping center.

53:42We, you know, obviously we got hard hit with homelessness and fentanyl, which is affecting all big cities, especially on the West Coast. And Mayor Breed has been taking some pretty aggressive strategies, and the street conditions are dramatically better than they were a year ago. There's still more work to do, but it's getting better, and I'm optimistic about the city's future. If you were to be elected to federal office, one, do you think that individuals who leverage the infrastructure, the culture, the amazing universities, the public infrastructure, the public investments that California taxpayers and specifically San Francisco, citizens of San Francisco pay such that they can create these unbelievable companies, people aggregate a ton of wealth, and then have a habit of deciding to spend more time with their father or they just can't handle San Francisco any longer, just about the time they're going to recognize an enormous capital gain and they moved to Texas or Florida.

54:42Would you be open to sponsoring legislation that's similar to options on equity, recognizes where those individuals actually accreted that wealth and applying those taxes such that you could reinvest in the great infrastructure that was responsible for that wealth? That was a word salad, but I think you know where I'm going with this. And he's not talking about anyone specifically, but go ahead. Well, there's a lot of them, actually. I'm teasing you, Scott. You're absolutely talking about it. Yeah, there are. Yeah, I think I would certainly be open to that. I think there are a lot of people who have made fortunes in California because of our state and including public investments in some situations.

55:23And I'm glad that they made a fortune. That's great. But I also think fair taxation is important. And it does. I'm not a fan of the whole make my money there and then leave. Yeah, they like to do that, though. Anyway, Scott, you're a very great public servant. I really enjoy talking to you. You're quite a sensible fella. People always have this idea of San Francisco legislators. It's very different from reality. How old are you, Scott? Fifty-four. So another 50 years, you can run for Pelosi's seat. Jesus Christ. Churn, folks. We need churn. Bring in this incredibly young, reckless 54-year-old, for God's sakes.

56:08Yeah. Sorry. That was an endorsement in case you didn't recognize it. Thank you. Thank you. I do have to say, I spend quite a bit of time around Nancy Pelosi, and I pray to God that I am half as sharp as she is. She really is. I got to tell you. I mean, she is. Ladies are not like the old guys. An impressive woman. An impressive woman. She still is. She's an extraordinary person. She really is, Scott. Yep. And let's crown her legacy. Anyways. She's now going to kill you. Just watch out. She's going to take you down. Like, pew, pew. That's not someone who is old in any way. Anyway, but nonetheless, you're right.

56:43Churn, as Scott says. Scott, thank you so much, other Scott. Thanks, Scott. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. All right, Scott. Do you like the other Scott? He's impressive, isn't he? Yeah, I hope. Look, and this goes back to what we were saying about the NSA. I know a lot of people in our security apparatus. This is who these people are. Incredibly well credentialed. Incredibly hardworking people. People who decide to give up a lot more money to go work in service of their nation. And the fact that people on the far left are suspicious of them and dismissive of them and people on the far right think there's some sort of like, I don't know, weird.

57:22These are the people protecting your rights to say these batshit crazy things and have a decent quality of life. And they really do deserve our respect. And I can't stand the extremists on the left and on the right that all unify to shitpost people on our security apparatus. Not just that. Not just Paul, but just and Scott, too. I mean, I think one of the reasons I want to bring him on is like he's he's considered conservative in San Francisco, though he's not right. He's just reasonable. And I think one of the things that's important is like, let's take a fucking second and actually meet these people and show what kind of work they're doing instead of making everyone a cartoon character of a city or a country, including on the right, by the way, saying I just interviewed Brad Raffensperger, the one who pushed back on Trump.

58:04Very conservative, but incredible public servant. Incredible public servant. And I wouldn't vote for him, but incredible public servant. Also, I hope the general makes a shit ton of money. I'd like to see him. That's exactly the kind of person that makes General Nakasone. It's the kind of person I'd like to see make a lot of money. Absolutely. Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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59:46Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first or I can? You go first, Cara. So I was going to talk about the Mississippi nonprofit newsroom facing the Free Press Challenge, which you must read about this. This is the Mississippi Press. They're doing amazing work, and they are getting pilloried by Republicans who just don't like—they never question the work. They just want to stop them in their tracks by gumming up the works with all kinds of legal fees. I was going to talk about that. But actually, I want to talk about a story that's in the Wall Street Journal. I think, Scott, this is something that's important to you, too.

1:00:19But this is an—the influencer is a young teenage girl. The audience is 92 percent adult men. This story is, it's not a surprise. And it's not something that I was, oh, no. But it was an incredible explanation of how difficult it is, one, for these tech companies to push back against all these men. And the people who are doing this stuff online, young people, how it's very hard to protect them. And at the same time, in order to be successful, you have to have a lot of engagement. and the people that have engagements around young girls are more men. Let me read the first part, and you must read the story.

1:00:59The mom started an Instagram account three years ago as a pandemic-era diversion, a way for her and her daughter, a preteen dancer, to share photos with family, friends, and other young dancers and moms. The two bonded, she said, as they posted photos of the girl dancing, modeling, and living life in a small Midwestern town. The mom, a former marketing manager, oversaw the account and watched as the number of followers grew. Soon, photographers offered to take professional shots for the girl. brands began sending free apparel for her to model. We didn't even have a page for a month, and brands were like, can we send her dancewear?

1:01:27The mom said she became popular really fast. The mom also began to notice a disturbing trend of the data that showed up on the account dashboard. Most of the girls' followers were adult men. And then it gets worse from there in terms of their comments and everything else. And she kept blocking them and kept blocking them, and all kinds of stuff was happening. And it was, it's, it's a fucking tale as old as time, But boy, is it amplified online. And it's it's I don't know what to say. It's just not a surprise. And yet it's repulsive. I just I don't you know, you can't use these tools without immediately becoming a sewer in so many ways.

1:02:06So there's there's there's a big story today about putting putting warnings on social media sites, by the way. I've got to read about it, but we'll talk about that maybe on stage this week, tomorrow. So anyway, that was a really disturbing story. On the positive side, Bridgerton this season is so good. Oh, you love it? So good. I binge watched it on the TV. Now look, all the boobs and sex are adult. So you know what I mean? It's for adults. It's sexy. It's like fun. They have a whole thing about a girl that's a wallflower who then becomes the star of this season. She's amazing, by the way. And she does talk about her terrific boobs, which she is correct about that.

1:02:50Anyway, just a really fun, wonderful show. I love that show. And I love it every season. And they focus on a different person. And the woman, I don't know her name, who plays the queen, cracks the shit out of me. She's so funny. And so, Shonda Rhimes, you are the OG best person ever. I'm sorry. It's the Shonda Rhimes show on Netflix. And man, is it good. All right. That's it. Just with respect to that article on the influencer in the Wall Street Journal, like this conference we're at, it used to be an advertising conference, but it's the same thing. It's tech, and that is the fact that men and a lot of women are very drawn towards sex and anything connoting sex, that's a tale as old as time.

1:03:32It's a big part of our economy because propagation is something that's a key to survival of the species. But what we also, generally speaking, have decided as a society is that we're going to limit the exposure, engagement, and threat of these things that can lead dark places to people under the age of 18. And then came Instagram. Instagram begins from a place of perversion. in that is all of the incentives for young people to get on Instagram, especially for young women, are to sexualize themselves such that a group of their peers and strange men, in this instance, 92 % of the engagement, are to be evaluated by strange men from around the world evaluating the sexual attractiveness of a minor.

1:04:21We used to decide that's not cool. That is not right. That leads to bad places. And this entire article is nothing but, again, let's move to solutions. We need to age-gate social media. Yes, I would agree with you. I was sickened by this story. But every incentive is like a path towards put on a bathing suit. Show up without a bra in a loose shirt and jump around, and all of a sudden your video is going to get 10 times the number of videos. You need to age-gate this shit. Don't put kids in a position where they are seduced into sexualizing themselves as minors. And don't create incentives for the parents.

1:05:06Don't create incentives for men to feel like they're not doing anything wrong when they start engaging in content with minors. This is on social media. I couldn't get into R-rated films when I was 16 and 17. There was a reason for that. And one of the things, can I just make out? There's another story today in the Post that I thought was good. TikTok lifted this family out of public housing, see their life before and after. So in a lot of ways, this is kind of great business, great entrepreneurship, great this, great that, great opportunities for people, especially in the fun stuff, the dancing, the makeup.

1:05:39Like, I kind of like it, like in that regard. I don't think it's as stupid as other people do. But immediately degenerates. And honestly, there's nothing – I feel terrible for these tech companies too because there's no way to – there's just not having it is the – like someone's like, how do you stop it? I'm like, not having it is the only choice because I don't even know what the – age gating is the only solution, not allowing them on these platforms. But just around the revenue argument, okay, Tracy Lords made a shit ton of money for a 16-year-old by being in porn, and that was wrong. And we had age limits, and it almost brought down the porn industry as it should have because people recognized there was no real concerted effort to check her true age.

1:06:24All paths lead to the same place, and I think we'll eventually get there. I was talking to someone, and I said, how old are your kids? And they said six and nine. I'm like, by the time your kids are ready for social media, we will have, as a society, finally gotten our head out of our ass and realized that anyone under the age of 16 should not be on social media. And any platform that is letting 16 and 17-year-old people be sexualized should not be protected by 230. This leads nowhere good. And yeah, some people won't make as much money. Okay, fine. What would you have your 16-year-old girl do for money?

1:06:59This shouldn't be it. And it has to be universal. It has to be collective action because if you try and take everyone – and all the people who say, well, just take their phone away do not have children. because if all your kids' friends are on social, they have to be social. Otherwise, they're more depressed because they're ostracized. All roads lead to the same place. We need to get your friend Scott elected. Age-gating, for God's sakes. I'm come around, especially with my daughter. I'm like, I felt sick to my stomach reading this. Anyway, what are your wins and fails? Well, I kind of have what I'll call two wins.

1:07:36But Team England beat Serbia 1-0. Not a huge win, but I think we're just not showing our cards to the competition. I'm, of course, talking about the European Championship here. But Team England, my favorite players, Bukayo Saka from Arsenal, Cole Palmer, who's just this kid wonder who plays for Chelsea. Jude Bellingham won the goal last night, but it's going to be just an amazing tournament. Super excited about it. I would also say, and I'm not going to go into specifics here, but to fans from England who've made the trip to Germany. Premier League football is probably one of England's strongest exports.

1:08:10It's going to build tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs. When you're just not a good guest in their country, you're really hurting England. And this is of all of the industries that are emerging in the UK. Something that the UK does really well is the Prem, Premier League. And just as the NBA and the NFL have been huge economic drivers in the United States, It could be a huge economic driver. Anyways, I'm excited about the European Championship and Team England. My fail, I'm at that age, Kara, and just a quick shout out. All my friends' parents are passing away, and I have a nice story.

1:08:49My best friend is a guy named Lee Lotus who I met in college. He was the best man at my wedding. His husband is a godparent to my oldest, Alec. his father, Lee Sr., is doing very poorly and will likely pass soon. And there was a couple moments I remember with his father. His father came and visited Lee and me. We were living together in San Francisco and Lee had a kidney stone. So me and Lee, he said, will you do some with my dad? So of course, me and Lee's father went to see the USS Pomponito, which is that submarine in the Fisherman's Wharf. But this guy was a man's man. He had a furniture store.

1:09:29He was one of the people that gave me the confidence to start a business. And I remember going visiting me at the furniture store and he would be so focused on detail. And I think that stuck with him. It's the little things that matter. Stuck with you, not him. Stuck with you. Stuck with me. But the one thing I remember the most was this guy looked like Burt Reynolds. Like when you were a young man, you looked at this guy. He was just so handsome. Married to the same woman, Carolyn Lotus, for 60 plus years. But this guy was so good looking. And I remember this exact moment. He walked in to Lee's apartment.

1:10:00He shook my hand and he turned to Lee. And you know what they did? They kissed. And I thought, oh, my God, I've never. They kissed on the lips like Italian people do sometimes. And it seemed so natural and so wholesome. And I remember thinking, and I came from a background where men just did not kiss each other. And I remember thinking that if a guy who looks like Burt Reynolds can kiss his son, I can kiss mine. And I kiss my sons because of Lee. Oh, Scott. You're killing me. You're killing me. This is what people love about you, Scott, when you go here. I'll tell you. Anyway, this guy, literally a man's man, kissed his son.

1:10:43You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to kiss you on the lips tomorrow. That's what I'm doing. With that porcelain skin? Yes. With my perfect skin. I'm going to kiss you on the lips live on the French Riviera. That's a beautiful story. You know how nice? Yes, that's a beautiful story. I'm so sorry. That sounds like a life well lived. It really is a wonderful guy. That's all you can say. Wonderful guy. Anyway, I don't know what to say. That's a great story. Let's just end on that. So we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech. You almost made me cry, Scott, but not quite.

1:11:15Not quite. Or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We're launching a special series tomorrow on the future of travel, a three-part series on where we look at the business and tech trends affecting travel from planes to trains and automobiles. Tomorrow, we kick it off with a look at the future of high-speed rail. That was a cool show. And why other countries have better trains than we do. They all do. And we started the whole train thing. No, we didn't. But nonetheless, we should have better trains.

1:11:46Then on Friday, we're bringing you our episode taped live at Cannes. We're very excited. Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Leah Jackson engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mille Silverio. Nishak Khurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

1:12:19Dads, kiss your sons. Scott, happy Father's Day. Likewise to you, Tara and Amanda.